Back to Apathy?

[5DollarPitcher]

The commentary has become asinine trying to prop up this loser we're stuck with for now.

We've gotten to the point that Projos need to denigrate NCAAT wins to maintain their position. It's a sinking ship and they're happy to be playing in the orchestra.

Only one person in MU history could spit in the face of the NCAAT and get away with it... and Wojo ain't him.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU and jesmu convincing themselves that hypothetical tournament success doesn't actually count as success so where we are now is no different than where we'd be with tournament runs from Wojo.

Truly mind-blowing mental gymnastics.

I don't think you understand the point of the post. This isn't a pro or anti-Wojo post. It's a commentary on what different people look at when evaluating a coach. It's clear that some here think that winning in the tournament proves that a coach is better and losing in the tournament proves that a coach is worse. Personally, I think it's a mistake to put so much focus on one or two games simply because they are postseason games. I think a better measure of the quality of coach is how the perform over the course of a season. For example, Tony Bennett had an amazing 17-18 season despite getting blasted by a 16 seed in the NCAAT. He proved it for good measure by winning the whole damn thing the following season.

[5DollarPitcher]

I don't think you understand the point of the post. This isn't a pro or anti-Wojo post. It's a commentary on what different people look at when evaluating a coach. It's clear that some here think that winning in the tournament proves that a coach is better and losing in the tournament proves that a coach is worse. Personally, I think it's a mistake to put so much focus on one or two games simply because they are postseason games. I think a better measure of the quality of coach is how the perform over the course of a season. For example, Tony Bennett had an amazing 17-18 season despite getting blasted by a 16 seed in the NCAAT. He proved it for good measure by winning the whole damn thing the following season.

I don't think you're understanding that it's embarrassing to make the argument that NCAAT runs somehow aren't important to a college basketball program.  Great use of the 1 in 1000 Virginia scenario to really drive your point home - NOW I understand, thanks.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights don't do much for you, I can understand why defending Wojo is the hill you've chosen to slurp on.  The Tournament is where college coaches make their bones.  Crean's *still* living off that Final Four from almost twenty years ago.  Buzz will be a head coach at a high major for the rest of his career, however long he wants, because of the run he made at Marquette.  And he never even made the Final Four.  You might turn your nose up at an Elite Eight, but most Athletic Directors obviously don't feel the same way.

And yet, national champion Kevin Ollie is jobless. And Mick Cronin just got hired for a blue blood job despite making the second weekend of the NCAAT once in 13 seasons at Cincy. Bad coaches win in the NCAAT all the time. Good coaches lose in the NCAAT all the time. I think most ADs value winning consistently because if you win consistently, you will earn high seeds which gives the best shot at making deep postseason runs.

Sports, for a huge percentage of fans, are all about the postseason.  Do you really think Packers fans will be happy if they finish 13-3 and lose their first playoff game?  Hell no.  All that regular season success will be for nothing.  Stinks for the team, but that's just the way it is.

I'm all about the postseason as well. I just never bought into the idea that losing in the round before the quarterfinals (Sweet 16) is that much better for a coach than losing the round before that. As a Packer fan, I won't care if we lose in the first round we play or if we lose in the NFC championship. The postseason will only be significant for me if they make the Super Bowl. Short of that, I will forget about this postseason as I have forgotten about all previous Super Bowl-less postseasons.

I guarantee you that all the Nojo-ers would shut up real quick if Wojo made the Sweet Sixteen this year.

Cool. I think that would be a mistake, unless the reason we got there was because we earned a higher seed than expected.

And not all Sweet Sixteen runs are the result of a team "just getting hot" for a couple games.  Sometimes teams win because talent, grit, and coaching come together at the right time. 

I think "come together at the right time" is another way of saying "getting hot" no?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Disagree completely. The only regular season win that could equal a win in the NCAA tournament is one that clinches a conference championship. Wins, in order of importance for me are as follows:

1.National Championship
2.National Semi Final
3.Elite 8 NCAA
4.Big East Tournament Championship
5.Sweet 16 NCAA
6.Round of 32 NCAA
7.First Round NCAA
8.Big East Tournament Semi Final
9.Big East Conference Games
10.Big East Quarters/First Round
11.Wisconsin
12.Pre Conference Tournaments
13.Pre Conference regular season games.

If you have a game to clinch a regular season Big East title I'd put that in between 3 and 4.

Lenny, nothing you wrote here disagrees with anything I said. Of course those games are more important. I even agree with your rankings. I'm not talking about importance of games, I'm talking about how to judge a coach. I put more value on the season overall (including the postseason) than solely focusing on performance in the NCAAT.

You say nobody remembers Elite8s and Sweet 16s. What nobody remembers (short of a conference title) is the regular season. It's an audition for the tournament, and the better the audition the better your seed - but it's what you do with it that matters.

Agree completely. And the better you audition, the better of a shot you have at making the Final Four. Give me a coach that consistently brings in high seeds every day over a coach that makes the Sweet 16 with a 10 seed. The former has a much better shot at breaking through to a Final Four than the latter does.

Question: When (as an 11 seed) we beat 6 seed Xavier (and later 3 seed Syracuse), who had the better year, got the most respect - Us or Xavier? I say us and it's not close. They don't call it the Big Dance for nothing.

Here's where we finally disagree. Xavier unquestionably had the better season. We had the better March 18th.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't think you're understanding that it's embarrassing to make the argument that NCAAT runs somehow aren't important to a college basketball program.  Great use of the 1 in 1000 Virginia scenario to really drive your point home - NOW I understand, thanks.

I don't think you do understand. Because no one has ever said "that NCAAT runs somehow aren't important to a college basketball program." They're insanely important for college basketball programs for a multitude of reasons. We're talking about whether or not winning in March is a good indicator of quality of coach. To me, it's one data point amongst a lot of other data points, several of which are more significant than this one.

I'll put it another way since you loved my UVA example. The 2014 national championship was important for UConn's college basketball program. It was a terrible indicator of Kevin Ollie's skills as a college basketball coach.

[JWags85]

And yet, national champion Kevin Ollie is jobless. And Mick Cronin just got hired for a blue blood job despite making the second weekend of the NCAAT once in 13 seasons at Cincy. Bad coaches win in the NCAAT all the time. Good coaches lose in the NCAAT all the time. I think most ADs value winning consistently because if you win consistently, you will earn high seeds which gives the best shot at making deep postseason runs.

Kevin Ollie is jobless cause he has a show cause until 2022 for a variety of significant NCAA violations. If not for that, he would absolutely have a job despite only winning with Calhoun's recruits.  If Josh Pastner and Bryce Drew could more or less immediately after blowing out at their previous gigs, Ollie would have had no issue.

And Mick Cronin's last 6 years in the AAC featured 2 conference titles, 2 30 win seasons, and multiple NCAA victories, even if not a bundle of S16s. That's what got him the UCLA job. But mind you, it's a crappy job in the current landscape and didn't have anyone knocking down the door.

But regardless, putting Cronin and Wojo in the same convo just cause neither has had tourney success is ludicrous.

[brewcity77]

I'm with TAMU. It's National Championship, Final Four, Conference Regular Season title, Conference Tourney title. Everything else comes after that.

The reason is because those are the wins everyone remembers. Casual college basketball fans remember which teams made the Final Four, they don't remember who was in the Sweet 16. Given the choice between a first weekend exit and Sweet 16 or Elite 8, obviously you'd rather have the wins, but the wins that matter are the ones that get you to the third weekend.

Give me the wins that are banner worthy of their own accord, that means a Final Four or championship, National or conference. The rest is window dressing.

[jesmu84]

I won't speak for TAMU, but this hypothetical that I started with wasn't to prop up wojo.

In fact, I saidn Wojo should likely be done here. His body of work isn't good enough.

The hypothetical was to say that even with 2 sweet 16s at some point, I'd still hold the position that he should be done here.

You have completely misinterpreted the intent

[willie warrior]

I don't think you do understand. Because no one has ever said "that NCAAT runs somehow aren't important to a college basketball program." They're insanely important for college basketball programs for a multitude of reasons. We're talking about whether or not winning in March is a good indicator of quality of coach. To me, it's one data point amongst a lot of other data points, several of which are more significant than this one.

I'll put it another way since you loved my UVA example. The 2014 national championship was important for UConn's college basketball program. It was a terrible indicator of Kevin Ollie's skills as a college basketball coach.

Quite a string of posts to slurpily support your boy Wojo, without barely mentioning his name. Wojo is a middling average coach who wallows in mediocrity which you and the other wojo worshippers accept and are complacent with. Others want better for the program, wanting to soar with the eagles.

[brewcity77]

I won't speak for TAMU, but this hypothetical that I started with wasn't to prop up wojo.

In fact, I saidn Wojo should likely be done here. His body of work isn't good enough.

The hypothetical was to say that even with 2 sweet 16s at some point, I'd still hold the position that he should be done here.

You have completely misinterpreted the intent

Guessing this wasn't addressing me, but I agree with you. The thing with a Sweet 16 is a mediocre coach can back into a Sweet 16. You spring a first round upset and get a favorable second round matchup and suddenly you're playing in the second weekend. Honestly, I think Buzz's first Sweet 16 was a bit of a fluke. We ran into a Xavier team as the 6-seed that didn't have the overall talent of a Big East team nor the ability to counteract the length of Jimmy Butler, then faced a Syracuse team we had already beat in the regular season.

Wojo could've made a Sweet 16 in 2017 had we held the South Carolina lead or in 2019 had we got Wisconsin's draw (better matchups for us), but that wouldn't change that we are seeing the same defensive issues that have plagued us for years, that we continue to turn the ball over in the same ways despite the changing cast, or that we are unable to sustain success after earning big wins.

[Galway Eagle]

Here's some does anyone remember how John Groce did at Illinois after his Ohio team upset the BE Champs Georgetown as a 14 seed and made the sweet 16?

That's what TAMU is saying, that was getting hot for a couple games and why people shouldn't use it for a main measure of coaching success. Another example is Porter moser, he has been unquestionably bad at a ton of places for so many years then he makes the Final four and people wanted him at MU despite years and years of data showing he can't hack it. Now with the Final Four on his belt he's recruiting better guys and able to have some staying power but doesn't make him a good coach.

[brewcity77]

Here's some does anyone remember how John Groce did at Illinois after his Ohio team upset the BE Champs Georgetown as a 14 seed and made the sweet 16?

That's what TAMU is saying, that was getting hot for a couple games and why people shouldn't use it for a main measure of coaching success. Another example is Porter moser, he has been unquestionably bad at a ton of places for so many years then he makes the Final four and people wanted him at MU despite years and years of data showing he can't hack it. Now with the Final Four on his belt he's recruiting better guys and able to have some staying power but doesn't make him a good coach.

Yup. Is Andy Enfield a great coach because he managed a Sweet 16 run with 15-seed FGCU? The marginal results at USC despite great recruiting would indicate otherwise. Is Archie Miller a great coach because he got 11-seed Dayton to an Elite 8? Indiana fans would argue otherwise.

[5DollarPitcher]

We are honestly going down the road of "only National Championships and Final Fours matter come tournament time"? What is wrong with you people. Just call a spade a spade. Wojo can't win in the tournament and it's been a big problem.

[Galway Eagle]

We are honestly going down the road of "only National Championships and Final Fours matter come tournament time"? What is wrong with you people. Just call a spade a spade. Wojo can't win in the tournament and it's been a big problem.

Happy to say that, in case you haven't noticed in the one who started this thread were posting in about being apathetic after the fools gold wins of CU and UW. But despite plenty of reasons to knock Wojo I'm not going to jump on the train of making up metrics as reasons to knock him.if he backs into a sweet 16 this year I'll celebrate but that won't have made him any better of a coach that he was prior to this.

[brewcity77]

We are honestly going down the road of "only National Championships and Final Fours matter come tournament time"? What is wrong with you people. Just call a spade a spade. Wojo can't win in the tournament and it's been a big problem.

No one is going down that road. The point is that had Wojo backed into the Sweet 16 as a 10-seed or managed to get a draw that featured a second-round 13-seed opponent that wouldn't justify keeping him.

1) National Championship
2) Final Four
3) Conference Regular Season Title
4) Conference Tournament Title

Those are the things we most remember, and sustaining success in regular seasons is bigger than getting a lucky draw in March when it comes to evaluating a coach, in my opinion. Reality is that Wojo hasn't accomplished any of those four, and the things that come after those (Elite 8, Sweet 16) he also hasn't accomplished.

Honestly, I really want Wojo to back into a Sweet 16 this year because maybe that will be enough to convince a Boston College type to hire him away from us.

[5DollarPitcher]

Happy to say that, in case you haven't noticed in the one who started this thread were posting in about being apathetic after the fools gold wins of CU and UW. But despite plenty of reasons to knock Wojo I'm not going to jump on the train of making up metrics as reasons to knock him.if he backs into a sweet 16 this year I'll celebrate but that won't have made him any better of a coach that he was prior to this.

Because he has a 7 year body of work with no tournament success and limited regular season success. Had he "snuck in" two Sweet Sixteens out of 7 years Scoop would 100% talk about him as if he's a "March coach" and he would have a lot more slack around here. Rightfully so. Beating Creighton in November means squat if you can't translate it in March.

[Galway Eagle]

Because he has a 7 year body of work with no tournament success and limited regular season success. Had he "snuck in" two Sweet Sixteens out of 7 years Scoop would 100% talk about him as if he's a "March coach" and he would have a lot more slack around here. Rightfully so. Beating Creighton in November means squat if you can't translate it in March.

He shouldn't have a lot more slack around here. There's genuine game reasons to want him gone and even if he had good matchups winning two games there would still be major causes for alarm.

Reasons to want him gone: His offense has been stagnant too heavily relying on 1 or 2 players doing ISO ball, his defense is atrocious, in game adjustments have been poor to completely missing, he's lost locker-rooms, and late season collapses, No truly good years here.

Reasons to not want him gone: noon ball/personal fitness routine, recruiting, charity/general non W's & L's PR for program, his record vs UW, only one truly terrible year here that I'll forgive.

Valid criticism but not what should make or break him: lack of sweet 16s round of 32, his monotone interviews.

[Silent Verbal]

We are honestly going down the road of "only National Championships and Final Fours matter come tournament time"? What is wrong with you people. Just call a spade a spade. Wojo can't win in the tournament and it's been a big problem.

Look at it this way:  If Wojo wins even one tournament game, there will be certain posters on here who'll beat their chests and talk about what idiots all the Nojo-ers are.  Hell, that'll happen when we beat Georgetown next week.  And now the response can be, "The only thing that matters is a Final Four or better."

[4everwarriors]

No one is going down that road. The point is that had Wojo backed into the Sweet 16 as a 10-seed or managed to get a draw that featured a second-round 13-seed opponent that wouldn't justify keeping him.

1) National Championship
2) Final Four
3) Conference Regular Season Title
4) Conference Tournament Title

Those are the things we most remember, and sustaining success in regular seasons is bigger than getting a lucky draw in March when it comes to evaluating a coach, in my opinion. Reality is that Wojo hasn't accomplished any of those four, and the things that come after those (Elite 8, Sweet 16) he also hasn't accomplished.

Honestly, I really want Wojo to back into a Sweet 16 this year because maybe that will be enough to convince a Boston College type to hire him away from us.

Da closest Woj iz komin' da a Sweet 16 iz bein' invited ta a teenager's birthday partee, aina?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Look at it this way:  If Wojo wins even one tournament game, there will be certain posters on here who'll beat their chests and talk about what idiots all the Nojo-ers are.  Hell, that'll happen when we beat Georgetown next week.  And now the response can be, "The only thing that matters is a Final Four or better."

Swing and a miss.

If Wojo wins a tournament game it will be one data point among many data points that speak to his ability as a coach. It won't suddenly mean that he's gone from a meh coach to a great coach. If he goes on a tear the remainder of the season and earns MU a high seed, that will be a more significant set of data points that speak to his ability as a coach. That's all people are saying here.

So yes, if Wojo sneaks into Dayton and wins one or even two, people declaring that Wojo is a great coach will be as misguided as those who think it is reasonable to expect MU to have fired Wojo by now.

[vogue65]

Look at it this way:  If Wojo wins even one tournament game, there will be certain posters on here who'll beat their chests and talk about what idiots all the Nojo-ers are.  Hell, that'll happen when we beat Georgetown next week.  And now the response can be, "The only thing that matters is a Final Four or better."

Our loudest Scoopers have well meaning, misguilde, metrics.  We talk past each other because some want sustainability, I call it a program, others want instant success. 

It is the difference between a 90 day wonder and 4 years at a military academy, 4 years at West Point, 2 years of graduate school, then whatever comes next.

[shoothoops]

I'm with TAMU. It's National Championship, Final Four, Conference Regular Season title, Conference Tourney title. Everything else comes after that.

The reason is because those are the wins everyone remembers. Casual college basketball fans remember which teams made the Final Four, they don't remember who was in the Sweet 16. Given the choice between a first weekend exit and Sweet 16 or Elite 8, obviously you'd rather have the wins, but the wins that matter are the ones that get you to the third weekend.

Give me the wins that are banner worthy of their own accord, that means a Final Four or championship, National or conference. The rest is window dressing.

I believe anyone and everyone would agree that winning the league is better than top 5 in the league. It's one of my bigger annual MUBB goals. Winning a National Title or advancing to a Final Four is also better than Elite 8's, Sweet 16's etc...

However I respectfully disagree w/you (and possibly TAMU) that it's Final Four or better or bust in the NCAA's. For me advancing to the 2nd weekend is included in MU goals as are league performance, league tourney performance, and so on. And it's expected more often than Final Fours and National Titles.

Marquette has to only look to recent past under Buzz. Elite 8's and Sweet 16's are a big deal for MU. There was certainly much more buzz about MUBB during that stretch.

It'd be different if 2nd weekends happened with more frequency. Then the discussion would be about making more Final Fours and winning more National Titles. Only six schools have ten or more Final Four appearances.

I look at things a different way. There are several different goal categories for MU each season. In no order, Regular Season League finish, post season league tourney, NCAA tourney, other tourneys, Rivalry games, elite non-conference games, and so on. You check as many boxes as you can each season, including NCAA performance.

I believe it's unrealistic to say that in the NCAA's, it's Final Four or bust, or only Final Fours mean anything. And I would like to think I have reasonably high standards annually for MUBB results.

Six schools with double digit Final Fours ever:

North Carolina, Kentucky, UCLA, Duke, Kansas, Michigan St. There are some casual fans out there that think college hoops is only about these teams or a few more. We all know those fans. But for me, ball is about more than just that group.

And it's also not just about discussing that Wyoming Final Four in 1943. Who can forget that one?

Marquette has made 3 Final Fours in its history. Some may say "only" three. And it has been just one in the past 43 years. But only 25 schools have made more Final Fours in history. I would be on board with a goal of more Final Fours and more National Titles. But I'd like to see more NCAA 2nd weekends too, along with many other regular season and post season goals.

I would certainly like to see more MUBB National Titles, and, more MUBB Final Fours. I don't expect them annually or often. But yes I do expect them once in a while. Some people here expect them too often. And, in my opinion, and some others don't have high enough expectations.

There is a big middle ground here. And at least for me, it matters. When it comes to the NCAA part of annual MUBB goals (again this is just one of many annual goals), MUBB needs to be an "almost annual" NCAA team. It also needs to make the 2nd weekend sometimes. And, less often, but still goals, Final Four, National Title.

[vogue65]

The NCAA tournament is a media created event to sell beer and pizzas to college kids and those who think they still are.
It's fun, but should not be the goal of a university. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

MUBB's stated goal is to compete for and win championships. This is how Wojo or any future coach should be judged. Similarly, MU's administration should also be judged on this metric in the governance, guardrails and resources they apply to this goal. 

Some of you cats want Wardle or TJO.  We often bring up the Shaka, Ben or Martin comps. The fact is, only Wojo recruits and runs the program in the way the administration has set out. We forget that as successful as Buzz was here, even he even failed under that model so he hightailed it. Al wouldn't have been successful either.

Accountability is at many different levels. I think many here are forgetting that in their Pro/No stances.