Back to Apathy?

[vogue65]

Last night, I watched Home Alone and Home Alone 2 with the kids. Maybe after the holidays I will watch them again. From what I saw earlier this year, Theo looks much improved on the offensive end, Carton Lewis and Garcia have great upside, and Koby shows flashes of a complete game. Aside from that, meh.  Wojo now bores me more than anything.

I almost never watch movies, don't watch much T.V. either, to each his own.
Oh, I'm not easily bored, don't smoke, drink or chew gum.

[lawdog77]

I almost never watch movies, don't watch much T.V. either, to each his own.
Oh, I'm not easily bored, don't smoke, drink or chew gum.

I'm not easily bored either, it took a lot to get me to this point

[vogue65]

I'm not easily bored either, it took a lot to get me to this point

Yes, the culture has an undue influence. 

[vogue65]

I'm not easily bored either, it took a lot to get me to this point

Have a great Christmas and enjoy your children, time flys by in the wink of an eye.

[muwarrior69]

Last night, I watched Home Alone and Home Alone 2 with the kids. Maybe after the holidays I will watch them again. From what I saw earlier this year, Theo looks much improved on the offensive end, Carton Lewis and Garcia have great upside, and Koby shows flashes of a complete game. Aside from that, meh.  Wojo now bores me more than anything.

Why did it take 4 years to develop that hook shot that actually goes in. It seems Wojo is always missing that other piece: we have sharp shooters no athletic bigs, now we have athletic bigs but no sharp shooters.

[wadesworld]

Bishop on Creighton looks like a much better player than Dawson. Why?

The junior averaging 13 and 6 on a team that plays at a much faster pace looks like a much better player than the freshman averaging 13 and 7? And in the head to head matchup the freshman went for 14 and 10 while the junior went for 7 and 4?

Maybe the answer is that you just want the other guy to look better so you can complain about Wojo, because he really doesn't look that much better and he's also had 2 extra years in college basketball.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Hard disagree. I have laid out pretty clearly what I want to see. I want to see a team regularly expected to be in the top-25, with the down years being 10 seeds to NIT and the good years being Big East & Final Four contenders. I haven't seen that yet.

We're in a down year right now and are on track to land in your 10 seed to NIT range. I don't know what the up years of this cycle will look like but like goose I'm optimistic about the youngins.

[Viper]

We're in a down year right now and are on track to land in your 10 seed to NIT range. I don't know what the up years of this cycle will look like but like goose I'm optimistic about the youngins.

"we are in a down year right now" Did I miss the good years?

[dgies9156]

Brew

As you noted, I am far from a Wojo supporter and am very disappointed with his time at MU. That being said, I actually believe Lewis, Dawson and Carton are guys you can build a team/program around. I have been begging for athletic, basketball players and I think these three guys are a start. I really do not care how they do this year as long as those three get a ton of minutes and continue to improve.

My big frustration on here is that everyone seems to be looking for silver linings for the past seven years. I am sorry but I cannot excited that GE has provided a spark or JC has made some three point baskets and grabbed some boards. Those are feel good stories and ammo for guys to say "I told you so" when they make something happen. Fact is, much of the team is "feel good stories" and not top level D1 players.

Have said it a million times, he needs to have ten Dawson, Lewis and Carton's or he better up his coaching skills quickly. You either need top level players or a top level coach. Again, I am encouraged about the three new guys. They are basketball players and will only get better. While apathy set in for me a long time ago, I am watching the games and the new quys closely. Maybe, just maybe, they can be the foundation for building a much better program.

Brother Goose:

BINGO!!!!!  +10,000,000,000,000

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

"we are in a down year right now" Did I miss the good years?

93
97
32
53
33
31
51 (to date)

I think the ones where we made the top 25 before turning into supernova's heading down the stretch. 

[Goose]

I have voiced my opinion on Theo over the years, but kudos to him for improving big time over last couple of years. Again, that falls into "feel good story" for me and am hoping we see improvement from the young guys. I am happy for Theo and wish him the best. It is time to get better players to take his spot moving forward.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

"we are in a down year right now" Did I miss the good years?

You must have, we've been to postseason four seasons in a row,  3 of them the big dance. We've had some good years. No great ones. Just good

[Billy Hoyle]

You must have, we've been to postseason four seasons in a row,  3 of them the big dance. We've had some good years. No great ones. Just good

Good is correct.

Thought I'd have some fun with an old roommate who's a Madison grad and texted him after the Bucky game. His response: "MU still won't win a tourney game." What could I say back? Even our rivals are apathetic towards us.

[Jockey]

We're in a down year right now and are on track to land in your 10 seed to NIT range. I don't know what the up years of this cycle will look like but like goose I'm optimistic about the youngins.

I am as well. The thing that concerns me though, is that we seem to be less than the sum of our parts.

I have always stayed out of the Wojo arguments here, but that is a reflection of the coaching.

[Silent Verbal]

You must have, we've been to postseason four seasons in a row,  3 of them the big dance. We've had some good years. No great ones. Just good

You're starting to sound like Chico.  We have not made the postseason four years in a row.  Nobody made the postseason last year.  The three years before that were NCAA, NIT, and NCAA.  We have not made the big dance three times under Wojo, stop making stuff up.  The last two seasons ended in complete and utter collapse.  I would not qualify those as "good" years, but there's no accounting for taste.

[wadesworld]

You're starting to sound like Chico.  We have not made the postseason four years in a row.  Nobody made the postseason last year.  The three years before that were NCAA, NIT, and NCAA.  We have not made the big dance three times under Wojo, stop making stuff up.  The last two seasons ended in complete and utter collapse.  I would not qualify those as "good" years, but there's no accounting for taste.

Well damn. If that's the case, Wojo is tied for the longest streak of consecutive NCAA Tournament appearances in the country. Hell yeah Wojo!

[Goose]

TAMU

The last few years would look or sound good if we were SLU.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU

The last few years would look or sound good if we were SLU.

They would be building statues at SLU but I know your post is partially in jest

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You're starting to sound like Chico.  We have not made the postseason four years in a row.  Nobody made the postseason last year.  The three years before that were NCAA, NIT, and NCAA.  We have not made the big dance three times under Wojo, stop making stuff up.  The last two seasons ended in complete and utter collapse.  I would not qualify those as "good" years, but there's no accounting for taste.

Fine, we have made the postseason three times and were considered a stone cold lock for the tournament in the year where no one made the tournament because it was canceled by a global pandemic.

See it's just easier to say made the postseason the last four years when everyone understands what is being said.

[JWags85]

I find it hard to chalk up any failings this year to a "rebuilding year" when we start 3 seniors, including a 5th year and two guys who played 20 min a game last year, plus a McD AA and a top 30 recruit who was slated to be a B10 All Freshman level player before off the court issues.  Plus a freshman who has turned out to be far better than expected early on and a redshirt junior rounding out your likely top 7. That's not some super young green crew.

For me, the hallmark of a team that is poorly coached is inconsistency. Not just from player performance, but clearly from other coaches/teams watching film of what was successful, preparing for it, and Marquette being unable to adjust. You don't go from a very good defensive team to last night by chance, but by another team understand how you defend and what you do well and being prepared to eviscerate you.

I was a bit down after UCLA but beyond fired up and hopeful after Creighton.  Seton Hall was aggravating, Xavier disheartening, and sadly, last night was completely expected. I paid attention and watched, but I didn't go through any emotional swings.  And unfortunately for me, that's become Wojo era Marquette ball. Inevitably, during every season, there is a point where you just expect and feel the wheels are gonna come off for 3-5 games.

Sure DG and DJ getting minutes and experience is great, but my fear is they leave before we have a team worthy of them.  If this isn't gonna be a top 20 team, the appeal of being a pro and developing there will be stronger than riding it out on a middle BEast team

[Class71]

This has been going on for 8 years. Time to hold someone accountable or just move on. I feel bad for the players. If they were tired they should have physical training so they are in shape. Buzz had a boot camp at the beginning of the season. Being tired may be an excuse for the team but not for the coach.

[The Big East]

Bishop on Creighton looks like a much better player than Dawson. Why?

Here is the answer to your question: Christian Bishop is a Junior, Plays Center, and has an extremely well defined role which he executes with precision. His job is pick and roll ,and make dunks, while the rest of their team guns from the outside. He has good basketball IQ and tends to be in proper position on the floor and is a cog in the Creighton System. So he looks good in the eyeball test.

[MU82]

As you noted, I am far from a Wojo supporter and am very disappointed with his time at MU. That being said, I actually believe Lewis, Dawson and Carton are guys you can build a team/program around. I have been begging for athletic, basketball players and I think these three guys are a start. I really do not care how they do this year as long as those three get a ton of minutes and continue to improve.

My big frustration on here is that everyone seems to be looking for silver linings for the past seven years. I am sorry but I cannot excited that GE has provided a spark or JC has made some three point baskets and grabbed some boards. Those are feel good stories and ammo for guys to say "I told you so" when they make something happen. Fact is, much of the team is "feel good stories" and not top level D1 players.

Have said it a million times, he needs to have ten Dawson, Lewis and Carton's or he better up his coaching skills quickly. You either need top level players or a top level coach. Again, I am encouraged about the three new guys. They are basketball players and will only get better. While apathy set in for me a long time ago, I am watching the games and the new quys closely. Maybe, just maybe, they can be the foundation for building a much better program.

A lot of good stuff in here, Goose, though I would point out that the part I bolded near the end is kind of an oxymoron. When apathy sets in, one doesn't care to watch the games closely. The Scooper who said he watched Home Alone instead of the game ... THAT'S apathy. But that's me picking a nit ... and I definitely do get what you're saying.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying about Elliott, Cain and Theo. If you're saying they shouldn't start and receive tons of PT for a good program, I think I'm with you there. If you're saying there is no place for solid role players even for great programs, we'll disagree. Theo might or might not start for most Top 25 teams, but I think he'd have a role on just about all of them -- and a much bigger role than, say, Matt Heldt had on our 2018-19 team. Maybe you agree, or maybe we'll agree to disagree on that.

I don't think apathy has set in for me, the way I define apathy. I was looking forward to yesterday's game, I sat down to watch it expecting to be entertained, and I went in feeling there was a realistic chance that I'd be quite happy afterward -- just as I was quite happy after the Madison and Creighton games. That's how I've rolled for all of the Wojo Era except the last month or two of his first season, and it's where I still am now.

Although I am an optimist, I am also a realist. I am falling in with those who have gone from being a strong Wojo backer to now wondering if he can do the job at an acceptable level. I am realistic enough to know that it is highly unlikely that Marquette will ever come close to the kind of sustained excellence we had during the Al Era, but I am optimistic enough to believe that Crean/Buzz-level success is attainable again -- and should be expected.

Despite our many errors last night, we were tied 28-28 late in the first half. But then our errors escalated in frequency and seriousness, and Nova took control.

At one point, maybe about 5-6 minutes into the second half, after we gave up yet ANOTHER wide-open 3 to Gillespie, I got up and left the room. I went downstairs, took out the trash, and fixed myself a snack. After a few minutes, I went back upstairs, sat down, and calmly watched the rest of the game.

In my view, my calmness wasn't indicative of apathy about the program, but I certainly knew that we had no chance to win last night at that point.

Nor was walking away when super frustrated all that unusual for me. I remember having done the same when watching the Davidson game in 2013 and the Holy Cross game in 2003. Better to stop overreacting to a basketball game, remember how lucky I've been to have a great life, and then resume watching with a calmer attitude. (Unfortunately, last night, the result was quite different than Holy Cross and Davidson, but that's neither here nor there!)

Anyway, long way of saying I still care about MU hoops and I really don't feel apathetic at all. Which is not the same as saying I'm satisfied being 5-5 at this point in Year 7. Like you, this first-year class gives me hope, and they certainly have entertained me (except for the second half last night). And like most MU fans, I want more.

[Shooter McGavin]

Brew

As you noted, I am far from a Wojo supporter and am very disappointed with his time at MU. That being said, I actually believe Lewis, Dawson and Carton are guys you can build a team/program around. I have been begging for athletic, basketball players and I think these three guys are a start. I really do not care how they do this year as long as those three get a ton of minutes and continue to improve.

My big frustration on here is that everyone seems to be looking for silver linings for the past seven years. I am sorry but I cannot excited that GE has provided a spark or JC has made some three point baskets and grabbed some boards. Those are feel good stories and ammo for guys to say "I told you so" when they make something happen. Fact is, much of the team is "feel good stories" and not top level D1 players.

Have said it a million times, he needs to have ten Dawson, Lewis and Carton's or he better up his coaching skills quickly. You either need top level players or a top level coach. Again, I am encouraged about the three new guys. They are basketball players and will only get better. While apathy set in for me a long time ago, I am watching the games and the new quys closely. Maybe, just maybe, they can be the foundation for building a much better program.

I like this take.  I hope those three are a good foundation to build upon.  I also hope two of the three don't transfer if we do not have success in the win/loss column to schools like MSU and Virginia that have more proven coaches. The new transfer rule scares the hell out of me especially with a head coach that is perceived as an average tactician.  Parents of these kids will take advantage of this rule for the betterment of their child.

Let's finish the season strong and hope the new recruits are additions to the young talent  we currently have and not replacements.

[Billy Hoyle]

TAMU

The last few years would look or sound good if we were SLU.

meanwhile, this year SLU is considered a darkhorse Final Four contender by national media pundits like Rothstein and Goodman. Us?