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Date/Time: Oct 15, 2021, 6:00pm?
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Schedule for 2019-20
13-14

Author Topic: Can't Take It Any Longer  (Read 8748 times)

rgoode57

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Can't Take It Any Longer
« on: January 06, 2021, 02:16:54 PM »
For six years now I have watched Wojo and his teams, always telling myself that he will eventually grow into the job and the teams will get better. Not after last night. I'm done.

I do not expect MU to compete for a national championship every ear but I do expect MU to be a legitimate contender for a BE title every couple of years and a tournament team every year. I do not expect Burger Boys on the roster every year - just respectful kids who are good at basketball. I do no expect to be in the top 10 all the time, but a top 25 team should not be out of the question.

None of what I expect is happening, and it's not going to with Wojo I'm afraid.

Wojo should have gone to a small, lower-profile school and learned to run his own program instead of jumping into a program like ours right out of the box. Being at a smaller school and learning to be on his own seems to have helped Dan Hurley a lot.

I will always be an MU fan. But, I am no longer a Wojo fan. He's had enough time, and last night was the end of the road for me.

Johnny B

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2021, 03:34:51 PM »
welcome to the wagon.

goldeneagle91114

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2021, 03:41:02 PM »
1. Deep Nov. Tournament runs - 0
2. 10 + Conference wins per season - 2 out of 6
3. Big East regular season Championships - 0
4. Big East Tournament Championships - 0
5. NCAA appearances - 2 out of 5 (I also don't think they would have made it last year, but wont include it)
6. NCAA tournament Wins - 0
7. Advancing to the second weekend of the tournament - 0
8. Consistently ranked in the top 25 - 1 of 6 seasons
9. Ensure the team plays their best basketball in Feb. & March - 0 out of 6

In addition:
1. Wojo team's never get "old" due to transfer
2. Lack of team identity year-over-year
3. Cant keep the locker room in check - leads to Hauser's transferring (Remember Markus even spent Thanksgivings with the Hauser Family at one point)
4. Lack of in-game adjustments

The Big East

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2021, 04:59:50 PM »
1. Deep Nov. Tournament runs - 0
2. 10 + Conference wins per season - 2 out of 6
3. Big East regular season Championships - 0
4. Big East Tournament Championships - 0
5. NCAA appearances - 2 out of 5 (I also don't think they would have made it last year, but wont include it)
6. NCAA tournament Wins - 0
7. Advancing to the second weekend of the tournament - 0
8. Consistently ranked in the top 25 - 1 of 6 seasons
9. Ensure the team plays their best basketball in Feb. & March - 0 out of 6

In addition:
1. Wojo team's never get "old" due to transfer
2. Lack of team identity year-over-year
3. Cant keep the locker room in check - leads to Hauser's transferring (Remember Markus even spent Thanksgivings with the Hauser Family at one point)
4. Lack of in-game adjustments
Your post is my new signature.

#UnleashRowsey

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2021, 05:31:09 PM »
Wojo is bad. I don't know how anybody defends it at this point.

Badgerhater

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2021, 05:53:28 PM »

We R Final Four

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2021, 07:26:18 PM »
1. Deep Nov. Tournament runs - 0
2. 10 + Conference wins per season - 2 out of 6
3. Big East regular season Championships - 0
4. Big East Tournament Championships - 0
5. NCAA appearances - 2 out of 5 (I also don't think they would have made it last year, but wont include it)
6. NCAA tournament Wins - 0
7. Advancing to the second weekend of the tournament - 0
8. Consistently ranked in the top 25 - 1 of 6 seasons
9. Ensure the team plays their best basketball in Feb. & March - 0 out of 6

In addition:
1. Wojo team's never get "old" due to transfer
2. Lack of team identity year-over-year
3. Cant keep the locker room in check - leads to Hauser's transferring (Remember Markus even spent Thanksgivings with the Hauser Family at one point)
4. Lack of in-game adjustments
Is #7 necessary?
How about....#8 no elite 8.
#9. No final fours.
#10. No title games.
#11. No ships.

Heisenberg v2.0

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2021, 08:28:26 PM »
1. Deep Nov. Tournament runs - 0
2. 10 + Conference wins per season - 2 out of 6
3. Big East regular season Championships - 0
4. Big East Tournament Championships - 0
5. NCAA appearances - 2 out of 5 (I also don't think they would have made it last year, but wont include it)
6. NCAA tournament Wins - 0
7. Advancing to the second weekend of the tournament - 0
8. Consistently ranked in the top 25 - 1 of 6 seasons
9. Ensure the team plays their best basketball in Feb. & March - 0 out of 6

In addition:
1. Wojo team's never get "old" due to transfer
2. Lack of team identity year-over-year
3. Cant keep the locker room in check - leads to Hauser's transferring (Remember Markus even spent Thanksgivings with the Hauser Family at one point)
4. Lack of in-game adjustments

Wojo has completed six seasons.

Here is the first six seasons of a current BE coach.
Who is it? Hint, you would trade Wojo for him in a hot second?

2010–11   13–17   7–11   12th   
2011–12   21–13   8–10   10th   NIT Second Round
2012–13   15–18   3–15   13th   
2013–14   17–17   6–12   8th   
2014–15   16–15   6–12   T–7th   
2015–16   25–9    12–6   3rd   NCAA Round of 64
You asked if I was in the meth business or the money business.  Neither.  I'm in the empire business.

Spirit Of James

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2021, 08:46:09 PM »
Wojo has completed six seasons.

Here is the first six seasons of a current BE coach.
Who is it? Hint, you would trade Wojo for him in a hot second?

2010–11   13–17   7–11   12th   
2011–12   21–13   8–10   10th   NIT Second Round
2012–13   15–18   3–15   13th   
2013–14   17–17   6–12   8th   
2014–15   16–15   6–12   T–7th   
2015–16   25–9    12–6   3rd   NCAA Round of 64

Gotta be Willard.

Heisenberg v2.0

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2021, 08:53:39 PM »
Gotta be Willard.

Correct!

After Willard's first six seasons ....

2016–17   21–12   10–8   T–3rd   NCAA Round of 64
2017–18   22–12   10–8   T–3rd   NCAA Round of 32
2018–19   20–14   9–9   T–3rd   NCAA Round of 64
2019–20   21–9      13–5   T-1st   NCAA Canceled

2020–21   8–4            5–1 (through yesterday)

---------

So all this trolling above about being done with Wojo (we all know they are not) ... Wojo got a great class this year and is on some really good players in future classes.

It would be program suicide to dump him now.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 08:57:40 PM by Heisenberg v2.0 »
You asked if I was in the meth business or the money business.  Neither.  I'm in the empire business.

panda

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2021, 08:57:33 PM »
Correct!

After Willard's first six seasons ....

2016–17   21–12   10–8   T–3rd   NCAA Round of 64
2017–18   22–12   10–8   T–3rd   NCAA Round of 32
2018–19   20–14   9–9   T–3rd   NCAA Round of 64
2019–20   21–9      13–5   T-1st   NCAA Canceled

2020–21   8–4            5–1 (through yesterday)

---------

So all this trolling above about being done with Wojo (we all know they are not) ... Wojo is got a great class this year and is on some really good players in future classes.

It would be program suicide to dump him now.

Program suicide?

Heisenberg v2.0

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2021, 09:06:00 PM »
Program suicide?

Absoutely ... if you fire him, 3/4 of the team transfers out and we have two sub .500 season as the new guy starts all over.

And who is this new guy that magically takes you farther than Wojo before Season 7? 

Remember when Buzz left and Ben Howland went out of his way to call MU and say he was interested?  A guy with three final fours on his resume.  Here is what he's done at Mississippi State (conf SEC)

2015–16   14–17   7–11   11th   
2016–17   16–16   6–12   12th   
2017–18   25–12   9–9   T–7th   NIT Semifinal
2018–19   23–11   10–8   T–6th   NCAA Division I Round of 64
2019–20   20–11   11–7   T–4th   Postseason cancelled†

2020–21   Mississippi State   5–3   0–0 (through yesterday)

So, I ask again ... who is this magic coach that is going to make things better in the next five years if you dump Wojo? 

Not only Willard, go look at Wright and Greg McDermott's first six seasons as a head coach.  Wojo is right with them. 

Wojo still has a high ceiling.
      
You asked if I was in the meth business or the money business.  Neither.  I'm in the empire business.

panda

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2021, 09:10:37 PM »
Absoutely ... if you fire him, 3/4 of the team transfers out and we have two sub .500 season as the new guy starts all over.

And who is this new guy that magically takes you farther than Wojo before Season 7? 

Remember when Buzz left and Ben Howland went out of his way to call MU and say he was interested?  A guy with three final fours on his resume.  Here is what he's done at Mississippi State (conf SEC)

2015–16   14–17   7–11   11th   
2016–17   16–16   6–12   12th   
2017–18   25–12   9–9   T–7th   NIT Semifinal
2018–19   23–11   10–8   T–6th   NCAA Division I Round of 64
2019–20   20–11   11–7   T–4th   Postseason cancelled†

2020–21   Mississippi State   5–3   0–0 (through yesterday)

So, I ask again ... who is this magic coach that is going to make things better in the next five years if you dump Wojo? 

Not only Willard, go look at Wright and Greg McDermott's first six seasons as a head coach.  Wojo is right with them. 

Wojo still has a high ceiling.

What makes you think Wojo can achieve results different results moving forward than he has the last six seasons?

Ben Howland has definitely improved Mississippi St. too. Can’t say the same for Wojo.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 09:22:04 PM by panda »

rocky_warrior

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2021, 09:22:10 PM »
What makes you think Wojo can achieve results different results moving forward than he has the last six seasons?

I mean, this year hasn't been encouraging, but there are a lot of games left if they can pull it together...

Heisenberg v2.0

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2021, 09:23:11 PM »
What makes you think Wojo can achieve results different results moving forward than he has the last six seasons?

Ben Howland has definitely improved Mississippi St. too. Can’t say the same for Wojo.

He's recruiting better players.  He's making real traction in getting into the top players in the country.  See Garcia and Lewis, and even DJ Carton.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 09:26:12 PM by Heisenberg v2.0 »
You asked if I was in the meth business or the money business.  Neither.  I'm in the empire business.

Heisenberg v2.0

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2021, 09:25:27 PM »
I mean, this year hasn't been encouraging, but there are a lot of games left if they can pull it together...

Exactly.

They have the hallmarks of a young team, wildly inconsistent.  But Bucky, Creighton, and even the first 25 minutes against Uconn showed real talent is there.
You asked if I was in the meth business or the money business.  Neither.  I'm in the empire business.

panda

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2021, 09:32:52 PM »
He's recruiting better players.  He's making real traction in getting into the top players in the country.  See Garcia and Lewis, and even DJ Carton.

I’d be happy to eat my words and hope I do.

I hope he can continue to get five stars to Marquette but I don’t see it. He’s had some big wins on the recruiting trail, but I still don’t see a clear program recruiting strategy. It’s evident on a yearly basis with glaring holes going into most seasons. Plug and play transfers for major team roles are extremely rare.

I’ve seen his teams get worse as the season progresses too many times to believe this season will be any different.

Color me doubtful that the light switch just somehow flips on after seven years for him.

Heisenberg v2.0

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2021, 09:43:26 PM »

Color me doubtful that the light switch just somehow flips on after seven years for him.

It took his mentor, Coach K, 10 years before the light switch flipped on.

1975–76   Army   11–14         
1976–77   Army   20–8         
1977–78   Army   19–9         NIT First Round
1978–79   Army   14–11         
1979–80   Army   9–17         
Duke Blue Devils (Atlantic Coast Conference) (1980–present)
1980–81   Duke   17–13   6–8   T–5th   NIT Quarterfinal
1981–82   Duke   10–17   4–10   T–6th   
1982–83   Duke   11–17   3–11   7th   
1983–84   Duke   24–10   7–7   T–3rd   NCAA Division I Round of 32
1984–85   Duke   23–8   8–6   T–4th   NCAA Division I Round of 32

Then ...

1985–86   Duke   37–3   12–2   1st   NCAA Division I Runner-up
1986–87   Duke   24–9   9–5   3rd   NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1987–88   Duke   28–7   9–5   3rd   NCAA Division I Final Four
1988–89   Duke   28–8   9–5   T–2nd   NCAA Division I Final Four
1989–90   Duke   29–9   9–5   2nd   NCAA Division I Runner-up
1990–91   Duke   32–7   11–3   1st   NCAA Division I Champion
1991–92   Duke   34–2   14–2   1st   NCAA Division I Champion
You asked if I was in the meth business or the money business.  Neither.  I'm in the empire business.

panda

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2021, 09:44:31 PM »
It took his mentor, Coach K, 10 years before the light switch went off.

1975–76   Army   11–14         
1976–77   Army   20–8         
1977–78   Army   19–9         NIT First Round
1978–79   Army   14–11         
1979–80   Army   9–17         
Duke Blue Devils (Atlantic Coast Conference) (1980–present)
1980–81   Duke   17–13   6–8   T–5th   NIT Quarterfinal
1981–82   Duke   10–17   4–10   T–6th   
1982–83   Duke   11–17   3–11   7th   
1983–84   Duke   24–10   7–7   T–3rd   NCAA Division I Round of 32
1984–85   Duke   23–8   8–6   T–4th   NCAA Division I Round of 32

Then ...

1985–86   Duke   37–3   12–2   1st   NCAA Division I Runner-up
1986–87   Duke   24–9   9–5   3rd   NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1987–88   Duke   28–7   9–5   3rd   NCAA Division I Final Four
1988–89   Duke   28–8   9–5   T–2nd   NCAA Division I Final Four
1989–90   Duke   29–9   9–5   2nd   NCAA Division I Runner-up
1990–91   Duke   32–7   11–3   1st   NCAA Division I Champion
1991–92   Duke   34–2   14–2   1st   NCAA Division I Champion

Modern day college basketball is slightly different than the time frame you’re referencing.

Heisenberg v2.0

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2021, 09:47:45 PM »
Modern day college basketball is slightly different than the time frame you’re referencing.

Not when it comes to a coach figuring it out.
You asked if I was in the meth business or the money business.  Neither.  I'm in the empire business.

Heisenberg v2.0

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2021, 09:50:11 PM »
A more recent example ... Jay Wright

He did not win his first NCAA tournament game until his 11th season as a head coach.

1994–95   Hofstra   10–18   5–11   9th   
1995–96   Hofstra   9–18   5–12   T–7th   
1996–97   Hofstra   12–15   9–9   4th   
1997–98   Hofstra   19–12   11–7   T–3rd   
1998–99   Hofstra   22–10   14–4   3rd   NIT First Round
1999–00   Hofstra   24–7   16–2   1st   NCAA Division I First Round
2000–01   Hofstra   26–5   16–2   1st   NCAA Division I First Round
Villanova Wildcats (Big East Conference[a]) (2001–present)
2001–02   Villanova   19–13   7–9   5th   NIT Quarterfinal
2002–03   Villanova   15–16   8–8   T–3rd   NIT First Round
2003–04   Villanova   18–17   6–10   11th   NIT Quarterfinal
2004–05   Villanova   24–8   11–5   T–3rd   NCAA Division I Sweet 16
2005–06   Villanova   28–5   14–2   T–1st   NCAA Division I Elite Eight
You asked if I was in the meth business or the money business.  Neither.  I'm in the empire business.

panda

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2021, 09:52:01 PM »
Not when it comes to a coach figuring it out.

You can put this in your signature.

I guarantee Wojo will not sniff half the success coach K did in the timeframe you provided above.

Unless of course they play some games at Marquette High. All bets are off at that point!

Heisenberg v2.0

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2021, 09:54:38 PM »
Bobbly Hurley is a highly thought of young coach.  He is in his 8th season with zero NCAA wins.

Would it be smart of AZ state to fire him?

2013–14   Buffalo   19–10   13–5   1st (East)   
2014–15   Buffalo   23–10   12–6   T–1st (East)   NCAA Division I Round of 64
Arizona State Sun Devils (Pac-12 Conference) (2015–present)
2015–16   Arizona State   15–17   5–13   11th   
2016–17   Arizona State   15–18   7–11   8th   
2017–18   Arizona State   20–12   8–10   T–8th   NCAA Division I First Four
2018–19   Arizona State   23–11   12–6   2nd   NCAA Division I Round of 64
2019–20   Arizona State   20–11   11–7   T–3rd   No postseason held

2020–21   Arizona State   3–1   1-0      
You asked if I was in the meth business or the money business.  Neither.  I'm in the empire business.

panda

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2021, 09:58:57 PM »
A more recent example ... Jay Wright

He did not win his first NCAA tournament game until his 11th season as a head coach.

1994–95   Hofstra   10–18   5–11   9th   
1995–96   Hofstra   9–18   5–12   T–7th   
1996–97   Hofstra   12–15   9–9   4th   
1997–98   Hofstra   19–12   11–7   T–3rd   
1998–99   Hofstra   22–10   14–4   3rd   NIT First Round
1999–00   Hofstra   24–7   16–2   1st   NCAA Division I First Round
2000–01   Hofstra   26–5   16–2   1st   NCAA Division I First Round
Villanova Wildcats (Big East Conference[a]) (2001–present)
2001–02   Villanova   19–13   7–9   5th   NIT Quarterfinal
2002–03   Villanova   15–16   8–8   T–3rd   NIT First Round
2003–04   Villanova   18–17   6–10   11th   NIT Quarterfinal
2004–05   Villanova   24–8   11–5   T–3rd   NCAA Division I Sweet 16
2005–06   Villanova   28–5   14–2   T–1st   NCAA Division I Elite Eight

A different way of looking at it.

He dominated the colonial conference with Hofstra and then he took a step up to an average Nova program and in four seasons took them to their first tournament since 1998. He didn’t look back after that.

What track record of success has Wojo had? Recruiting victories don’t count.

Heisenberg v2.0

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2021, 10:07:19 PM »
A different way of looking at it.

He dominated the colonial conference with Hofstra and then he took a step up to an average Nova program and in four seasons took them to their first tournament since 1998. He didn’t look back after that.

What track record of success has Wojo had? Recruiting victories don’t count.

You cannot take recruiting victories out.  It is a critical part of the game.

But I agree with you it has been uneven to date.  But that does not mean he has hit his ceiling.

You asked if I was in the meth business or the money business.  Neither.  I'm in the empire business.