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Author Topic: Can't Take It Any Longer  (Read 21727 times)

dgies9156

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2021, 09:42:07 AM »
First, he is not.  Yes, it has been uneven.  But, as I noted above, I still don't think he has hit his ceiling.

Second, this is a lazy argument.

I'm open to firing any coach in any sport this season if you can make an argument for who should replace them and why that is an upgrade.

So you fire Wojo, and replace him with who?

1) Hotshot assistant.  Since they have no track record, that is guessing that he works out.  Besides, MU has done this many times with the hottest assistant names. See Hank, Majerus, O'Neill, Crean, Buzz and Wojo.

2) Proven mid-major coach?  So, you take Brian Wardle, or a Brian Wardle type, and hope they are not the next Bob Dukiet or Mike Deane.  Good luck

3) Take a big "name." St. Johns did this with Chris Mullins and Georgetown did with Patrick Ewing.  How's that working out.

4) A retread?  See My Ben Howland comments above.  So, you can Wojo and hire Steve Lavin, or a Steve Lavin type.  Feel better?

My point is you have to be absolutely sure Wojo is at his ceiling and that is not acceptable.  I do not think he is at his ceiling.

So firing him and means you are ready to throw a dart at the NCAA coaches convention and take whatever ass it hits.  Are you really ready for MU to do that?  Is that an upgrade?

Thank you Brother Heise. You're right on the money here.

I'll add to that the question of Marquette being revenue challenged, having to meet contractual obligations to Coach Wojo and facing considerable blowback from a faculty and staff that has seen its numbers thinned. Plus, our basketball revenue in 2020-2021 is way down and given the malaise that's sweeping the program, 2021-2022 won't be at level to which Marquette has become accustomed.

Given these trends, there is NO chance the university goes for a high-cost, big name, "future is now" coach. Plus, the best coaches in the USA are quirky. Yeah, we'd all like Jay Wright and his button-downed, classy and classic PR image, who wins Nattys. But this gentleman isn't coming to Marquette any more than Roy Williams or Billy Donovan will!

I'm a Nojo at this point, but I'm also realistic. The last time we had revenue issues was in the 1980s, when the Baby Boom finished being educated, and look what we got -- BOB DUKIET! I'm disgusted by the UConn game on several levels and place the blame for that failure on the coaching staff. We've had too many meltdowns in recent years but as our Brother Heise points out, before you make a change, be sure you can do better.

For the record, Brian Wardle AINT IT!

GoldenWarrior11

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2021, 09:54:46 AM »
Even for all of the arguments that Wojo is a good and successful coaches, it can also be true that he has, unfortunately, been unable to meet the expectations consistently while at Marquette.  In that regard, it very much has been revealed to no longer be a long-term fit.  A previous poster referenced that the expectations for this year should have been (and should be) tempered, due to the reality that this year's team is a rebuilding year.  That is an unwise response, IMO, to categorize the struggles of where the program is presently at because no program with a tenured coach within a power conference (and, especially) as a high-major program should ever need to go through a rebuild (retool, yes, but never rebuild).  If the program is without depth, experienced skill players or a balanced roster, that, once again, falls upon the head coach.  The continued lack of consistency, once again, falls one the head coach.

Even for the argument that Wojo should not be replaced because there is no guarantee his successor would be better is a short-sighted and fearful one.  That is similar to refusing to go out and play because there is a possibility of losing.  No successful athletic department or business would ever operate that way, and many successful ones certainly do not do that. 

I have no idea when Wojo and Marquette part ways (it could be after this season, it could be five years from now; but it will happen).  What I remain strongly believing in is that the next head coach of Marquette will be an individual with head coaching experience, that I can almost guarantee.  If a search opened up today, I would imagine (knowing how our athletic department and school have viewed candidates under current administration) the following types of coaches would be under consideration: guys like Wardle, Porter Moser, and Darian DeVries (head coaches from successful programs in smaller conferences, with a Private/Catholic background either as a head coach, assistant coach or player (all of Scholl's hires have had this, either at MU or elsewhere).  I also think Diener could get some interest, but I don't think he would reciprocate it.  Given the failures of Penny Hardaway at Memphis (who was hired purely for his name and AAU connections), I can't envision a situation for a Joe Chapman being seriously considered either.  And Doc certainly isn't going to be interested. 

Marquette is not hiring a current head coach from another P5 school (i.e. Oats); Oats is already making $2.5 million at Alabama, not including bonuses.  I believe Wojo is under that (and the school isn't going to be paying that much for two separate staffs, at least I don't think).  I also think a wild card, given Scholl's connections, could be Mike Brey.  Brey and ND might be looking at a separation after the season (ND remains down, and have struggled past few seasons), and I believe (could be wrong) it was rumored on Scoop in 2014 that Brey's reps expressed interest in the MU job at Buzz left (ND had just spent its first season in the ACC, went 15-17 and break hadn't advanced back to S16 since 2003.  Could be wrong about that though.

Even though they are available, Gregg Marshall or Pat Chambers are both for sure not happening.  No way the school is hiring an available coach that has their baggage. 

While it is not open, it is fun to speculate what a search in 2021 would look like.  2014 was so much fun between the flight trackers and #DoneDeal. 

4everwarriors

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2021, 10:02:11 AM »
Talent=B
Coachin'=D
Overall=C

aka not good 'nough for Marquette, hey?
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wadesworld

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2021, 10:07:10 AM »
Forget about greater than the sum of their parts. Has Wojo ever made a team play to the sum of its parts?

How many really good players have left the program over his tenure only to play a lead role on a team ranked much better than ours? Wojo has had the pieces to create consistently Top 25 teams if they played to the sum of their parts.

I am probably in the minority here, but I think the talent on this year’s roster is actually really really good. Probably the second best roster Wojo has ever had behind the Howard/Hausers year. They just play so painfully disjointed and out of synch that it makes us, frankly, a bad basketball team. Nobody’s skills compliment those of the guy next to him, our offense is dominated by the 1 on 1 game, and we turn the ball over so prolifically that we haven’t even had a good look at a game where we can get into a set consistently.

Is that all coaching? Maybe or maybe not. But it’s not very fun to watch right now.

3?  And 2 of them are currently on teams at the very back end of the top 25.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2021, 10:09:44 AM »
I'm open to firing any coach in any sport this season if you can make an argument for who should replace them and why that is an upgrade.

So you fire Wojo, and replace him with who?


No this is a lazy argument. 

Have you ever fired anyone?  If so, did you replace that person?  I unfortunately have fired people, and yes, I did replace them.  Did I know who I was going to replace them with when they were fired?  Nope.  Was I sure it was going to be an upgrade?  Nope.

But I believed it would be.  And in each case I was right.

Also, it isn't my job to figure out who to replace Wojo with.  That's what an AD is supposed to do.  All I am doing is giving my feeble input on a message board that I don't think he is doing his job well.  I'm not a big donor.  I'm not a season ticket holder.  Outside of owning some Marquette gear and buying tickets off the secondary market once or twice a year, that's the extent of my fandom.
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5DollarPitcher

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2021, 10:10:44 AM »
3?  And 2 of them are currently on teams at the very back end of the top 25.
Deonte Burton, Duane Wilson, Joey Hauser, Sam Hauser I think of just right off the top of my head. So that’s at least 4...

Golden Avalanche

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2021, 10:40:40 AM »
Deonte Burton, Duane Wilson, Joey Hauser, Sam Hauser I think of just right off the top of my head. So that’s at least 4...

You have quite a liberal definition of "really good player".

wadesworld

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2021, 10:44:33 AM »
Deonte Burton, Duane Wilson, Joey Hauser, Sam Hauser I think of just right off the top of my head. So that’s at least 4...

Duane Wilson had a "lead role" at Texas A&M?  He averaged 9 points for them and started 16 games. 5th in minutes, 6th in points, 5th in games started.  And they were a 7 seed who was in the top 25 for just one of the last 9 polls of the season, and none of the last four heading into the NCAA Tournament.
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MUfan12

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2021, 10:51:18 AM »
Duane Wilson had a "lead role" at Texas A&M?  He averaged 9 points for them and started 16 games. 5th in minutes, 6th in points, 5th in games started.  And they were a 7 seed who was in the top 25 for just one of the last 9 polls of the season, and none of the last four heading into the NCAA Tournament.

That's not entirely fair to Duane. He was playing pretty well up until his knee injury.

5DollarPitcher

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2021, 11:06:01 AM »
Duane Wilson had a "lead role" at Texas A&M?  He averaged 9 points for them and started 16 games. 5th in minutes, 6th in points, 5th in games started.  And they were a 7 seed who was in the top 25 for just one of the last 9 polls of the season, and none of the last four heading into the NCAA Tournament.
Well he injured his knee in February so not being in the Top 25 for last four weeks of the year actually helps my case that he was playing a lead role on that team. They were ranked in the Top 10 when he was healthy. The knee injury also defeats your point that he started only 16 games.

9 points (6th on his team), 4 assists (1st on his team), 1.1 steals (2nd on his team), 2 rebs (7th on his team as a point guard, no less).

Sounds like he played a lead role when he was healthy. Note that I never said THE lead role as I know you love to try to play semantics.

You paint him to be a scrub to absolve Wojo of wrongdoing.

panda

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2021, 11:09:28 AM »
That's not entirely fair to Duane. He was playing pretty well up until his knee injury.

He played awesome and was really the engine of that team at PG until he tore his ACL. He wanted to play PG, A&M gave him that opportunity and he took full advantage of it.

5-8 without him
17-5 with him

5DollarPitcher

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2021, 11:17:43 AM »
You have quite a liberal definition of "really good player".
Those four guys plus, let’s say, Theo, would earn a top 3 seed in the NCAAT with a good coach (let’s say Buzz).

Might be a hot take but I believe it to be true.

wadesworld

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2021, 11:44:42 AM »
Well he injured his knee in February so not being in the Top 25 for last four weeks of the year actually helps my case that he was playing a lead role on that team. They were ranked in the Top 10 when he was healthy. The knee injury also defeats your point that he started only 16 games.

9 points (6th on his team), 4 assists (1st on his team), 1.1 steals (2nd on his team), 2 rebs (7th on his team as a point guard, no less).

Sounds like he played a lead role when he was healthy. Note that I never said THE lead role as I know you love to try to play semantics.

You paint him to be a scrub to absolve Wojo of wrongdoing.

I mean, if 9/4/2 is a lead role then there are a LOT of guys with lead roles around the country.
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5DollarPitcher

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2021, 12:04:17 PM »
I mean, if 9/4/2 is a lead role then there are a LOT of guys with lead roles around the country.
Only a Sith speaks in absolutes. On his team - he was playing lead role when he was healthy. Sorry Wades...

5DollarPitcher

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #64 on: January 07, 2021, 12:11:02 PM »
I mean, if 9/4/2 is a lead role then there are a LOT of guys with lead roles around the country.
By the way 3 players in the country averaged 9/4/2/1 in 2019-2020 and 10 players averaged that line in 2018-2019 including Ja Morant, Cassius Winston, Sam Merrill, and Jeremiah Martin.

Any other snarky responses Wades??

WhiteTrash

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2021, 12:33:36 PM »
The discussion about Wojo's ceiling and if he has hit it or where it will be, makes me think he could become Mike Brey. He has a ways to go but, JMO, that was one coach I thought of. 

wadesworld

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #66 on: January 07, 2021, 12:37:09 PM »
Only a Sith speaks in absolutes. On his team - he was playing lead role when he was healthy. Sorry Wades...

I don't know what your definition of "lead role" is, but he certainly wasn't anywhere near the player that Davis, Hogg, Williams, or Gilder were.  He played 22 games for TAMU.  He started 16.  I don't know why you're pumping him up.  (Well, I do.  You think it makes Wojo look worse)

It'd be like claiming Junior Cadougan was playing "lead role" (again, whatever that is to you) for Marquette's Elite 8 team.  Which is silly.  He was just a guy at TAMU.  But sure, throw him in there as a "lead role" guy on a "top 25" team.

If "lead role" is "point guard," then that drops the number from 3 to 0, as Burton and the Hausers are not playing point guard, and TAMU was not a top 25 team.  If "lead role" is "major reason for team success," then Duane was certainly not that.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 12:41:47 PM by BLM »
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5DollarPitcher

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2021, 12:48:52 PM »
I don't know what your definition of "lead role" is, but he certainly wasn't anywhere near the player that Davis, Hogg, Williams, or Gilder were.  He played 22 games for TAMU.  He started 16.  I don't know why you're pumping him up.  (Well, I do.  You think it makes Wojo look worse)

It'd be like claiming Junior Cadougan was playing "lead role" (again, whatever that is to you) for Marquette's Elite 8 team.  Which is silly.  He was just a guy at TAMU.  But sure, throw him in there as a "lead role" guy on a "top 25" team.

If "lead role" is "point guard," then that drops the number from 3 to 0, as Burton and the Hausers are not playing point guard, and TAMU was not a top 25 team.  If "lead role" is "major reason for team success," then Duane was certainly not that.
Alright - Duane Wilson was trash and had nothing to do with the direction or success of TAMU and we’re lucky he decided to grad transfer.

Is that better? You win.

wadesworld

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2021, 12:51:17 PM »
Alright - Duane Wilson was trash and had nothing to do with the direction or success of TAMU and we’re lucky he decided to grad transfer.

Is that better? You win.

Thanks.

Not exactly what I said.  But when every argument you have fails miserably I suppose that's what you have to go with at the end of the day.  I mean, you honestly championed 2 rebounds per game and being 7th on his team in rebounds per game because, well, point guard.  When's the last time Marquette had a point guard that averaged UNDER 2 rebounds per game?  This year their point guard is at 3.4 and 5th on the team.  WOW!  Last year their point guard was at 5.0 and 4th on the team.  SHEESH!  The year before their point guard was at 4.0 per game and 5th on the team.  GOODNESS GRACIOUS!  The year before that, 3.0 per game and 5th on the team.  INCREDIBLE!

Seriously.  He was just a guy.  Nothing wrong with it.  He would've helped Marquette.  But to pretend Wojo let this uber talented player slip away only to see him kill it for a wildly successful team is beyond revisionist history.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 01:11:00 PM by BLM »
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GoldenWarrior11

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2021, 01:11:26 PM »
Only a Sith speaks in absolutes.

For as much grief the prequel and sequel trilogies get, this line is 100% true - and very, very applicable in today's world. 

Not A Serious Person

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2021, 01:21:17 PM »
The last time we had revenue issues was in the 1980s, when the Baby Boom finished being educated, and look what we got -- BOB DUKIET! I'm disgusted by the UConn game on several levels and place the blame for that failure on the coaching staff. We've had too many meltdowns in recent years but as our Brother Heise points out, before you make a change, be sure you can do better.

For the record, Brian Wardle AINT IT!

Let's go back to the mid-1980s.  MU abandoned Rick Majerus after three lackluster years and hired Bob Dukiet.  That was an unmitigated disaster both ways.

Dukiet killed the program.

I was a student at the time and what many are saying here about Wojo are the same thing that was said about Majerus back then.  Majerus lost the team (see his "words" with Dwayne Johnson), he could not recruit (see Joe Wolf) and he was a bad game manager.  In other words, he hit his ceiling.

I've been trying to say it can take a decade or more for a new coach to hit their stride.  I gave the examples of Willard, Wright, Coach K, and even Bobbly Hurley.  Wojo is still in the learning period, it should be over in a season or two. I would rather let this play out then blow it all up and start over at the bottom of the conference.

MU made a disastrous choice in dumping Majerus.  Because his ceiling was very high, and this is what he did at Utah (and not MU).

1990–91   Utah   30–4   15–1   1st   NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1991–92   Utah   24–11   9–7   T–4th   NIT Third Place
1992–93   Utah   24–7   15–3   T–1st   NCAA Division I Second Round
1993–94   Utah   14–14   8–10   T–5th   
1994–95   Utah   28–6   15–3   1st   NCAA Division I Second Round
1995–96   Utah   27–7   15–3   1st   NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1996–97   Utah   29–4   15–1   1st (Mountain)   NCAA Division I Elite Eight
1997–98   Utah   30–4   12–2   1st (Mountain)   NCAA Division I Runner-up
1998–99   Utah   28–5   14–0   1st (Pacific)   NCAA Division I Second Round

-----

Bailing on Wojo now because everyone is upset about the Uconn game (I am too) can indeed be program suicide.  Like it was suicide to dump Majerus.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 01:27:09 PM by Heisenberg v2.0 »
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We R Final Four

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2021, 01:22:00 PM »


Honestly, I feel Wardle has a stronger resume than Wojo did. Wojo had a lot of great experience with Duke and Team USA, but he was never the main guy. Wardle has shown how he can lead a program. Not all of it has been great to be honest.

Tom Crean was a top assistant at MSU. A similar, and unimpressive resume...as both he and Wojo were assistants. There are no guarantees on the next coach's success whether that person comes from the mid major HC ranks or as a top assistant at a HM.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #72 on: January 07, 2021, 01:30:40 PM »
Let's go back to the mid-1980s.  MU abandoned Rick Majerus after three lackluster years and hired Bob Dukiet.  That was an unmitigated disaster both ways.

Dukiet killed the program.

I was a student at the time and what many are saying here about Wojo are the same thing that was said about Majerus back then.  Majerus lost the team (see his "words" with Dwayne Johnson), he could not recruit (see Joe Wolf) and he was a bad game manager.  In other words, he hit his ceiling.

I've been trying to say it can take a decade or more for a new coach to hit their stride.  I gave the examples of Willard, Wright, Coach K, and even Bobbly Hurley.  Wojo is still in the learning period, it should be over in a season or two. I would rather let this play out then blow it all up and start over at the bottom of the conference.

MU made a disastrous choice of dumping Majerus.  Because his ceiling was very high, and this is what he did at Utah (and not MU).

1990–91   Utah   30–4   15–1   1st   NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1991–92   Utah   24–11   9–7   T–4th   NIT Third Place
1992–93   Utah   24–7   15–3   T–1st   NCAA Division I Second Round
1993–94   Utah   14–14   8–10   T–5th   
1994–95   Utah   28–6   15–3   1st   NCAA Division I Second Round
1995–96   Utah   27–7   15–3   1st   NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1996–97   Utah   29–4   15–1   1st (Mountain)   NCAA Division I Elite Eight
1997–98   Utah   30–4   12–2   1st (Mountain)   NCAA Division I Runner-up
1998–99   Utah   28–5   14–0   1st (Pacific)   NCAA Division I Second Round

-----

Bailing on Wojo now because everyone is upset about the Conn game (I am too) can indeed be program suicide.  Like it was suicide to dump Majerus.


Going through the Dukiet era showed everyone had far the program had fallen - a process that started long before he was hired.  But going through that time, and reemerging under O'Neill, was a better alternative than sticking with Majerus.  O'Neill came in from a successful program, and knew Marquette was behind. Bill Cords knew it too. 

Also, Majerus heading out on his own at Ball State and Utah was better for him.

Both had to get away from the Legacy of Al.  And it worked for both parties.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 01:32:23 PM by Fluffy Blue Monster »
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The Big East

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2021, 04:02:12 PM »
Thanks.

Not exactly what I said.  But when every argument you have fails miserably I suppose that's what you have to go with at the end of the day.  I mean, you honestly championed 2 rebounds per game and being 7th on his team in rebounds per game because, well, point guard.  When's the last time Marquette had a point guard that averaged UNDER 2 rebounds per game?  This year their point guard is at 3.4 and 5th on the team.  WOW!  Last year their point guard was at 5.0 and 4th on the team.  SHEESH!  The year before their point guard was at 4.0 per game and 5th on the team.  GOODNESS GRACIOUS!  The year before that, 3.0 per game and 5th on the team.  INCREDIBLE!

Seriously.  He was just a guy.  Nothing wrong with it.  He would've helped Marquette.  But to pretend Wojo let this uber talented player slip away only to see him kill it for a wildly successful team is beyond revisionist history.
I watched every game Duane played at Texas A & M until he got injured and then followed the team the rest of the season since I invested the time.

I think an accurate description of Duane’s role was as a spark plug at the point guard position . He added some dynamism to their offense that enabled the other guys to reach their best potential .  I thought Swaggy played similar to how he did his first season at MU.

I felt bad for Duane when he got hurt because he was giving his all every game , which was one of his hallmark traits .

wadesworld

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Re: Can't Take It Any Longer
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2021, 04:08:25 PM »
I watched every game Duane played at Texas A & M until he got injured and then followed the team the rest of the season since I invested the time.

I think an accurate description of Duane’s role was as a spark plug at the point guard position . He added some dynamism to their offense that enabled the other guys to reach their best potential .  I thought Swaggy played similar to how he did his first season at MU.

I felt bad for Duane when he got hurt because he was giving his all every game , which was one of his hallmark traits .

I don't disagree with any of this.  He helped a solid team.  We don't have to pretend he was the key ingredient to one of the very best teams in the country.  I loved Duane from the second he committed, and then loved him even more when he ripped into Nigel Hayes.  But injuries limited him to a role player for his college career.  Which is not someone who has a "lead role."
Rocket Trigger Warning (wild that saying this would trigger anyone, but it's the world we live in): Black Lives Matter