MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: rgoode57 on January 06, 2021, 02:16:54 PM
-
For six years now I have watched Wojo and his teams, always telling myself that he will eventually grow into the job and the teams will get better. Not after last night. I'm done.
I do not expect MU to compete for a national championship every ear but I do expect MU to be a legitimate contender for a BE title every couple of years and a tournament team every year. I do not expect Burger Boys on the roster every year - just respectful kids who are good at basketball. I do no expect to be in the top 10 all the time, but a top 25 team should not be out of the question.
None of what I expect is happening, and it's not going to with Wojo I'm afraid.
Wojo should have gone to a small, lower-profile school and learned to run his own program instead of jumping into a program like ours right out of the box. Being at a smaller school and learning to be on his own seems to have helped Dan Hurley a lot.
I will always be an MU fan. But, I am no longer a Wojo fan. He's had enough time, and last night was the end of the road for me.
-
welcome to the wagon.
-
1. Deep Nov. Tournament runs - 0
2. 10 + Conference wins per season - 2 out of 6
3. Big East regular season Championships - 0
4. Big East Tournament Championships - 0
5. NCAA appearances - 2 out of 5 (I also don't think they would have made it last year, but wont include it)
6. NCAA tournament Wins - 0
7. Advancing to the second weekend of the tournament - 0
8. Consistently ranked in the top 25 - 1 of 6 seasons
9. Ensure the team plays their best basketball in Feb. & March - 0 out of 6
In addition:
1. Wojo team's never get "old" due to transfer
2. Lack of team identity year-over-year
3. Cant keep the locker room in check - leads to Hauser's transferring (Remember Markus even spent Thanksgivings with the Hauser Family at one point)
4. Lack of in-game adjustments
-
1. Deep Nov. Tournament runs - 0
2. 10 + Conference wins per season - 2 out of 6
3. Big East regular season Championships - 0
4. Big East Tournament Championships - 0
5. NCAA appearances - 2 out of 5 (I also don't think they would have made it last year, but wont include it)
6. NCAA tournament Wins - 0
7. Advancing to the second weekend of the tournament - 0
8. Consistently ranked in the top 25 - 1 of 6 seasons
9. Ensure the team plays their best basketball in Feb. & March - 0 out of 6
In addition:
1. Wojo team's never get "old" due to transfer
2. Lack of team identity year-over-year
3. Cant keep the locker room in check - leads to Hauser's transferring (Remember Markus even spent Thanksgivings with the Hauser Family at one point)
4. Lack of in-game adjustments
Your post is my new signature.
-
Wojo is bad. I don't know how anybody defends it at this point.
-
Your post is my new signature.
Ditto
-
1. Deep Nov. Tournament runs - 0
2. 10 + Conference wins per season - 2 out of 6
3. Big East regular season Championships - 0
4. Big East Tournament Championships - 0
5. NCAA appearances - 2 out of 5 (I also don't think they would have made it last year, but wont include it)
6. NCAA tournament Wins - 0
7. Advancing to the second weekend of the tournament - 0
8. Consistently ranked in the top 25 - 1 of 6 seasons
9. Ensure the team plays their best basketball in Feb. & March - 0 out of 6
In addition:
1. Wojo team's never get "old" due to transfer
2. Lack of team identity year-over-year
3. Cant keep the locker room in check - leads to Hauser's transferring (Remember Markus even spent Thanksgivings with the Hauser Family at one point)
4. Lack of in-game adjustments
Is #7 necessary?
How about....#8 no elite 8.
#9. No final fours.
#10. No title games.
#11. No ships.
-
1. Deep Nov. Tournament runs - 0
2. 10 + Conference wins per season - 2 out of 6
3. Big East regular season Championships - 0
4. Big East Tournament Championships - 0
5. NCAA appearances - 2 out of 5 (I also don't think they would have made it last year, but wont include it)
6. NCAA tournament Wins - 0
7. Advancing to the second weekend of the tournament - 0
8. Consistently ranked in the top 25 - 1 of 6 seasons
9. Ensure the team plays their best basketball in Feb. & March - 0 out of 6
In addition:
1. Wojo team's never get "old" due to transfer
2. Lack of team identity year-over-year
3. Cant keep the locker room in check - leads to Hauser's transferring (Remember Markus even spent Thanksgivings with the Hauser Family at one point)
4. Lack of in-game adjustments
Wojo has completed six seasons.
Here is the first six seasons of a current BE coach.
Who is it? Hint, you would trade Wojo for him in a hot second?
2010–11 13–17 7–11 12th
2011–12 21–13 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2012–13 15–18 3–15 13th
2013–14 17–17 6–12 8th
2014–15 16–15 6–12 T–7th
2015–16 25–9 12–6 3rd NCAA Round of 64
-
Wojo has completed six seasons.
Here is the first six seasons of a current BE coach.
Who is it? Hint, you would trade Wojo for him in a hot second?
2010–11 13–17 7–11 12th
2011–12 21–13 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2012–13 15–18 3–15 13th
2013–14 17–17 6–12 8th
2014–15 16–15 6–12 T–7th
2015–16 25–9 12–6 3rd NCAA Round of 64
Gotta be Willard.
-
Gotta be Willard.
Correct!
After Willard's first six seasons ....
2016–17 21–12 10–8 T–3rd NCAA Round of 64
2017–18 22–12 10–8 T–3rd NCAA Round of 32
2018–19 20–14 9–9 T–3rd NCAA Round of 64
2019–20 21–9 13–5 T-1st NCAA Canceled
2020–21 8–4 5–1 (through yesterday)
---------
So all this trolling above about being done with Wojo (we all know they are not) ... Wojo got a great class this year and is on some really good players in future classes.
It would be program suicide to dump him now.
-
Correct!
After Willard's first six seasons ....
2016–17 21–12 10–8 T–3rd NCAA Round of 64
2017–18 22–12 10–8 T–3rd NCAA Round of 32
2018–19 20–14 9–9 T–3rd NCAA Round of 64
2019–20 21–9 13–5 T-1st NCAA Canceled
2020–21 8–4 5–1 (through yesterday)
---------
So all this trolling above about being done with Wojo (we all know they are not) ... Wojo is got a great class this year and is on some really good players in future classes.
It would be program suicide to dump him now.
Program suicide?
-
Program suicide?
Absoutely ... if you fire him, 3/4 of the team transfers out and we have two sub .500 season as the new guy starts all over.
And who is this new guy that magically takes you farther than Wojo before Season 7?
Remember when Buzz left and Ben Howland went out of his way to call MU and say he was interested? A guy with three final fours on his resume. Here is what he's done at Mississippi State (conf SEC)
2015–16 14–17 7–11 11th
2016–17 16–16 6–12 12th
2017–18 25–12 9–9 T–7th NIT Semifinal
2018–19 23–11 10–8 T–6th NCAA Division I Round of 64
2019–20 20–11 11–7 T–4th Postseason cancelled†
2020–21 Mississippi State 5–3 0–0 (through yesterday)
So, I ask again ... who is this magic coach that is going to make things better in the next five years if you dump Wojo?
Not only Willard, go look at Wright and Greg McDermott's first six seasons as a head coach. Wojo is right with them.
Wojo still has a high ceiling.
-
Absoutely ... if you fire him, 3/4 of the team transfers out and we have two sub .500 season as the new guy starts all over.
And who is this new guy that magically takes you farther than Wojo before Season 7?
Remember when Buzz left and Ben Howland went out of his way to call MU and say he was interested? A guy with three final fours on his resume. Here is what he's done at Mississippi State (conf SEC)
2015–16 14–17 7–11 11th
2016–17 16–16 6–12 12th
2017–18 25–12 9–9 T–7th NIT Semifinal
2018–19 23–11 10–8 T–6th NCAA Division I Round of 64
2019–20 20–11 11–7 T–4th Postseason cancelled†
2020–21 Mississippi State 5–3 0–0 (through yesterday)
So, I ask again ... who is this magic coach that is going to make things better in the next five years if you dump Wojo?
Not only Willard, go look at Wright and Greg McDermott's first six seasons as a head coach. Wojo is right with them.
Wojo still has a high ceiling.
What makes you think Wojo can achieve results different results moving forward than he has the last six seasons?
Ben Howland has definitely improved Mississippi St. too. Can’t say the same for Wojo.
-
What makes you think Wojo can achieve results different results moving forward than he has the last six seasons?
I mean, this year hasn't been encouraging, but there are a lot of games left if they can pull it together...
-
What makes you think Wojo can achieve results different results moving forward than he has the last six seasons?
Ben Howland has definitely improved Mississippi St. too. Can’t say the same for Wojo.
He's recruiting better players. He's making real traction in getting into the top players in the country. See Garcia and Lewis, and even DJ Carton.
-
I mean, this year hasn't been encouraging, but there are a lot of games left if they can pull it together...
Exactly.
They have the hallmarks of a young team, wildly inconsistent. But Bucky, Creighton, and even the first 25 minutes against Uconn showed real talent is there.
-
He's recruiting better players. He's making real traction in getting into the top players in the country. See Garcia and Lewis, and even DJ Carton.
I’d be happy to eat my words and hope I do.
I hope he can continue to get five stars to Marquette but I don’t see it. He’s had some big wins on the recruiting trail, but I still don’t see a clear program recruiting strategy. It’s evident on a yearly basis with glaring holes going into most seasons. Plug and play transfers for major team roles are extremely rare.
I’ve seen his teams get worse as the season progresses too many times to believe this season will be any different.
Color me doubtful that the light switch just somehow flips on after seven years for him.
-
Color me doubtful that the light switch just somehow flips on after seven years for him.
It took his mentor, Coach K, 10 years before the light switch flipped on.
1975–76 Army 11–14
1976–77 Army 20–8
1977–78 Army 19–9 NIT First Round
1978–79 Army 14–11
1979–80 Army 9–17
Duke Blue Devils (Atlantic Coast Conference) (1980–present)
1980–81 Duke 17–13 6–8 T–5th NIT Quarterfinal
1981–82 Duke 10–17 4–10 T–6th
1982–83 Duke 11–17 3–11 7th
1983–84 Duke 24–10 7–7 T–3rd NCAA Division I Round of 32
1984–85 Duke 23–8 8–6 T–4th NCAA Division I Round of 32
Then ...
1985–86 Duke 37–3 12–2 1st NCAA Division I Runner-up
1986–87 Duke 24–9 9–5 3rd NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1987–88 Duke 28–7 9–5 3rd NCAA Division I Final Four
1988–89 Duke 28–8 9–5 T–2nd NCAA Division I Final Four
1989–90 Duke 29–9 9–5 2nd NCAA Division I Runner-up
1990–91 Duke 32–7 11–3 1st NCAA Division I Champion
1991–92 Duke 34–2 14–2 1st NCAA Division I Champion
-
It took his mentor, Coach K, 10 years before the light switch went off.
1975–76 Army 11–14
1976–77 Army 20–8
1977–78 Army 19–9 NIT First Round
1978–79 Army 14–11
1979–80 Army 9–17
Duke Blue Devils (Atlantic Coast Conference) (1980–present)
1980–81 Duke 17–13 6–8 T–5th NIT Quarterfinal
1981–82 Duke 10–17 4–10 T–6th
1982–83 Duke 11–17 3–11 7th
1983–84 Duke 24–10 7–7 T–3rd NCAA Division I Round of 32
1984–85 Duke 23–8 8–6 T–4th NCAA Division I Round of 32
Then ...
1985–86 Duke 37–3 12–2 1st NCAA Division I Runner-up
1986–87 Duke 24–9 9–5 3rd NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1987–88 Duke 28–7 9–5 3rd NCAA Division I Final Four
1988–89 Duke 28–8 9–5 T–2nd NCAA Division I Final Four
1989–90 Duke 29–9 9–5 2nd NCAA Division I Runner-up
1990–91 Duke 32–7 11–3 1st NCAA Division I Champion
1991–92 Duke 34–2 14–2 1st NCAA Division I Champion
Modern day college basketball is slightly different than the time frame you’re referencing.
-
Modern day college basketball is slightly different than the time frame you’re referencing.
Not when it comes to a coach figuring it out.
-
A more recent example ... Jay Wright
He did not win his first NCAA tournament game until his 11th season as a head coach.
1994–95 Hofstra 10–18 5–11 9th
1995–96 Hofstra 9–18 5–12 T–7th
1996–97 Hofstra 12–15 9–9 4th
1997–98 Hofstra 19–12 11–7 T–3rd
1998–99 Hofstra 22–10 14–4 3rd NIT First Round
1999–00 Hofstra 24–7 16–2 1st NCAA Division I First Round
2000–01 Hofstra 26–5 16–2 1st NCAA Division I First Round
Villanova Wildcats (Big East Conference[a]) (2001–present)
2001–02 Villanova 19–13 7–9 5th NIT Quarterfinal
2002–03 Villanova 15–16 8–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2003–04 Villanova 18–17 6–10 11th NIT Quarterfinal
2004–05 Villanova 24–8 11–5 T–3rd NCAA Division I Sweet 16
2005–06 Villanova 28–5 14–2 T–1st NCAA Division I Elite Eight
-
Not when it comes to a coach figuring it out.
You can put this in your signature.
I guarantee Wojo will not sniff half the success coach K did in the timeframe you provided above.
Unless of course they play some games at Marquette High. All bets are off at that point!
-
Bobbly Hurley is a highly thought of young coach. He is in his 8th season with zero NCAA wins.
Would it be smart of AZ state to fire him?
2013–14 Buffalo 19–10 13–5 1st (East)
2014–15 Buffalo 23–10 12–6 T–1st (East) NCAA Division I Round of 64
Arizona State Sun Devils (Pac-12 Conference) (2015–present)
2015–16 Arizona State 15–17 5–13 11th
2016–17 Arizona State 15–18 7–11 8th
2017–18 Arizona State 20–12 8–10 T–8th NCAA Division I First Four
2018–19 Arizona State 23–11 12–6 2nd NCAA Division I Round of 64
2019–20 Arizona State 20–11 11–7 T–3rd No postseason held
2020–21 Arizona State 3–1 1-0
-
A more recent example ... Jay Wright
He did not win his first NCAA tournament game until his 11th season as a head coach.
1994–95 Hofstra 10–18 5–11 9th
1995–96 Hofstra 9–18 5–12 T–7th
1996–97 Hofstra 12–15 9–9 4th
1997–98 Hofstra 19–12 11–7 T–3rd
1998–99 Hofstra 22–10 14–4 3rd NIT First Round
1999–00 Hofstra 24–7 16–2 1st NCAA Division I First Round
2000–01 Hofstra 26–5 16–2 1st NCAA Division I First Round
Villanova Wildcats (Big East Conference[a]) (2001–present)
2001–02 Villanova 19–13 7–9 5th NIT Quarterfinal
2002–03 Villanova 15–16 8–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2003–04 Villanova 18–17 6–10 11th NIT Quarterfinal
2004–05 Villanova 24–8 11–5 T–3rd NCAA Division I Sweet 16
2005–06 Villanova 28–5 14–2 T–1st NCAA Division I Elite Eight
A different way of looking at it.
He dominated the colonial conference with Hofstra and then he took a step up to an average Nova program and in four seasons took them to their first tournament since 1998. He didn’t look back after that.
What track record of success has Wojo had? Recruiting victories don’t count.
-
A different way of looking at it.
He dominated the colonial conference with Hofstra and then he took a step up to an average Nova program and in four seasons took them to their first tournament since 1998. He didn’t look back after that.
What track record of success has Wojo had? Recruiting victories don’t count.
You cannot take recruiting victories out. It is a critical part of the game.
But I agree with you it has been uneven to date. But that does not mean he has hit his ceiling.
-
A different way of looking at it.
He dominated the colonial conference with Hofstra
That did not happen until his sixth season at Hofstra.
-
Wojo is bad. I don't know how anybody defends it at this point.
First, he is not. Yes, it has been uneven. But, as I noted above, I still don't think he has hit his ceiling.
Second, this is a lazy argument.
I'm open to firing any coach in any sport this season if you can make an argument for who should replace them and why that is an upgrade.
So you fire Wojo, and replace him with who?
1) Hotshot assistant. Since they have no track record, that is guessing that he works out. Besides, MU has done this many times with the hottest assistant names. See Hank, Majerus, O'Neill, Crean, Buzz and Wojo.
2) Proven mid-major coach? So, you take Brian Wardle, or a Brian Wardle type, and hope they are not the next Bob Dukiet or Mike Deane. Good luck
3) Take a big "name." St. Johns did this with Chris Mullins and Georgetown did with Patrick Ewing. How's that working out.
4) A retread? See My Ben Howland comments above. So, you can Wojo and hire Steve Lavin, or a Steve Lavin type. Feel better?
My point is you have to be absolutely sure Wojo is at his ceiling and that is not acceptable. I do not think he is at his ceiling.
So firing him and means you are ready to throw a dart at the NCAA coaches convention and take whatever ass it hits. Are you really ready for MU to do that? Is that an upgrade?
-
First, he is not. Yes, it has been uneven. But, as I noted above, I still don't think he has hit his ceiling.
Second, this is a lazy argument.
I'm open to firing any coach in any sport this season if you can make an argument for who should replace them and why that is an upgrade.
So you fire Wojo, and replace him with who?
1) Hotshot assistant. Since they have no track record, that is guessing that he works out. Besides, MU has done this many times with the hottest assistant names. See Hank, Majerus, O'Neill, Crean, Buzz and Wojo.
2) Proven mid-major coach? So, you take Brian Wardle, or a Brian Wardle type, and hope they are not the next Bob Dukiet or Mike Deane. Good luck
3) Take a big "name." St. Johns did this with Chris Mullins and Georgetown did with Patrick Ewing. How's that working out.
4) A retread? See My Ben Howland comments above. So, you can Wojo and hire Steve Lavin, or a Steve Lavin type. Feel better?
My point is you have to be absolutely sure Wojo is at his ceiling and that is not acceptable. I do not think he is at his ceiling.
So firing him and means you are ready to throw a dart at the NCAA coaches convention and take whatever ass it hits. Are you really ready for MU to do that? Is that an upgrade?
I’m not saying Wardle is the answer, but if I had two choices between him and wojo, it’s a no brainer.
Look at his record compared to Steve’s. There is no comparison. Steve has all of the resources, wardle had none and still did more
-
Wojo is bad. I don't know how anybody defends it at this point.
People honestly still defending him and arguing or questioning if it’s really time to move on are quite frankly too stupid to comment on anything to do with college basketball. The evidence is so overwhelming he is completely in over his head now.
-
Wojo has completed six seasons.
Here is the first six seasons of a current BE coach.
Who is it? Hint, you would trade Wojo for him in a hot second?
2010–11 13–17 7–11 12th
2011–12 21–13 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2012–13 15–18 3–15 13th
2013–14 17–17 6–12 8th
2014–15 16–15 6–12 T–7th
2015–16 25–9 12–6 3rd NCAA Round of 64
When Willard took over Seton Hall, they were, along with Rutgers, St. John's, and South Florida, one of the absolute joke teams in the Big East. It was a moribund program that had zero momentum. When Wojo took over Marquette, the team wasn't great, but the *program* was in great shape. Marquette had been to the NCAA tournament in 8 of the last 9 seasons, they were drawing huge crowds in an NBA arena, had a first rate practice facility, lots of very recent Tournament success, and Wojo's resources were basically unlimited, or at least way better than what Willard surely had when he took over SH. The turnaround Willard's achieved there has been quite impressive, and isn't really comparable to Wojo's situation at Marquette, except for the fact that they play in the same conference.
-
I’m not saying Wardle is the answer, but if I had two choices between him and wojo, it’s a no brainer.
Look at his record compared to Steve’s. There is no comparison. Steve has all of the resources, wardle had none and still did more
A mannequin may be preferable to Wojo.
-
First, he is not. Yes, it has been uneven. But, as I noted above, I still don't think he has hit his ceiling.
Second, this is a lazy argument.
I'm open to firing any coach in any sport this season if you can make an argument for who should replace them and why that is an upgrade.
So you fire Wojo, and replace him with who?
1) Hotshot assistant. Since they have no track record, that is guessing that he works out. Besides, MU has done this many times with the hottest assistant names. See Hank, Majerus, O'Neill, Crean, Buzz and Wojo.
2) Proven mid-major coach? So, you take Brian Wardle, or a Brian Wardle type, and hope they are not the next Bob Dukiet or Mike Deane. Good luck
3) Take a big "name." St. Johns did this with Chris Mullins and Georgetown did with Patrick Ewing. How's that working out.
4) A retread? See My Ben Howland comments above. So, you can Wojo and hire Steve Lavin, or a Steve Lavin type. Feel better?
My point is you have to be absolutely sure Wojo is at his ceiling and that is not acceptable. I do not think he is at his ceiling.
So firing him and means you are ready to throw a dart at the NCAA coaches convention and take whatever ass it hits. Are you really ready for MU to do that? Is that an upgrade?
To say that Wojo hasn't reached his ceiling is a bit disingenuous. I believe he did reach his ceiling in 2018-19. We had a really, really good team that year and were ranked in the top 10 at one point. And then Wojo lost the locker room and we completely collapsed to end the year. This, along with all of the other mistakes Wojo has made during his time at Marquette, points to a guy who simply is not good at running a program. He's pretty much a chicken with his head cut off right now. There is no system in place, the team and game plans (or lack thereof) seem entirely different each year, to the point where we're basically starting over every single season. The real problem isn't necessarily recruiting or bad coaching, though an argument could certainly be made for the latter. It's that Wojo is simply bad at running a high major program. He continually makes bad decisions and seems to have no control over his program's destiny.
As far as the options you've listed, yeah, anytime you make a coaching change, there's going to be risk involved, but Wojo is now a sunk cost. At some point, MU will need to take the leap and go in a different direction. Perhaps the next guy won't do better, but that's a chance the people doing the hiring will have to take. Wojo's been here seven years now. That's a large enough sample size to judge him on.
-
I'm open to firing any coach in any sport this season if you can make an argument for who should replace them and why that is an upgrade.
So you fire Wojo, and replace him with who?
I could make an argument to fire him, or I could make an argument to keep him. There are enough facts available for either side to make a strong case.
One argument I will not make, however is this one: Even if it is deemed that he sucks, Marquette shouldn't fire him unless we're sure that the next coach will be better.
That's silly. There never are assurances. For example, we didn't know Crean would be better than Deane. But Deane still had to go, and we had to trust that whomever we hired would do better.
Once you determine that your coach isn't good enough - a determination that often comes when you realize that either you have to extend his contract or move on - you make the break, you conduct as much due diligence as is humanly possible, and you hire the replacement.
I do agree with what you say about trying to determine if Wojo has reached his "ceiling," though again, that's just an opinion. There is no way to know. We could fire Wojo and he could click big-time at his next school. Or maybe February 2019 was as good as it will ever get for him.
Marquette's powers-that-be need to ask this question IMHO:
Can Wojo give us a long stretch of sustained success and lead us to the Final Four (and, preferably, multiple Final Fours) while also running a clean program?
If they determine the answer is no, he's gotta go. If they honestly believe that Final Fours are his "ceiling," then extend his contract so he doesn't go somewhere else to reach that ceiling.
6 1/2 years in, based on everything we've seen, I certainly wouldn't extend his contract if this season continues on its current trajectory.
If we don't make the tourney, or if we are a 10/11 seed with another first-round exit, and if we face an extend-or-move-on decision come March/April, I'd vote "move on."
-
Bad reporter
Brian Wardle is not the answer. That is taking a step backwards. You only hire him if you’re looking for clean program and have a guy stay for twenty years, regardless of on court success. He is not the guy to take the program to higher ground.
-
Bad reporter
Brian Wardle is not the answer. That is taking a step backwards. You only hire him if you’re looking for clean program and have a guy stay for twenty years, regardless of on court success. He is not the guy to take the program to higher ground.
If things bottom out and Marquette has to fire Wojo or risk losing the majority of the fanbase, and if the BOT and Lovell *are* as in love with Wojo and the way he runs the program as some say they are, Wardle might just be the guy they turn to. It would be like firing Wojo and hiring another Wojo, which may be exactly what they want.
-
Bad reporter
Brian Wardle is not the answer. That is taking a step backwards. You only hire him if you’re looking for clean program and have a guy stay for twenty years, regardless of on court success. He is not the guy to take the program to higher ground.
Agree, Goose.
I’m starting to think Wojo is the guy you describe as well. I never thought I would say that about him. I truly believed it eats at his soul to not Win consistently. I do know he’s right about our league being a “bear.” He doesn’t need me or anyone here telling him how to behave on the sideline or in huddles, or press conferences for that matter.
Still I have to ask: Is it the fact we have a young team that explains his lack of passion Tues night on the sideline? Because that extended UConn run seemed to fester and fester with no visible sense of urgency to stop it from coach or team. Timeouts were called, but guys seemed to be going through the motions after them. Was it the pregame Perez Tweet? I hope the young man keeps his head up and just goes straight to the staff next time with his grievances. AL was a genius at letting people bitch in practice, right to his face. He knew during games, not just “war and major surgery”, how bad guys wanted to win, and how together they would play when it counted most.
I don’t think Coach is soft. I do think he has a bit of a staid, Research-Triangle way of handling things. Sometimes you just gotta light a frickin fire under guys. I truly feel if he would coach like the player he was, it would rub off on guys. He has to. Forget about pleasing your employer. Don’t walk on eggshells, always worrying about letting an F bomb drop here or there. This University lived through KO’s verbiage; you could never shock us. Coach like the coach you were meant to be. This is Milwaukee, not Raleigh-Durham. This is Marquette, not Duke. These are young men, not boys. They want to be coached, and coached hard. I’m still with this team and I’m still a believer in them and their Coach.
-
If things bottom out and Marquette has to fire Wojo or risk losing the majority of the fanbase, and if the BOT and Lovell *are* as in love with Wojo and the way he runs the program as some say they are, Wardle might just be the guy they turn to. It would be like firing Wojo and hiring another Wojo, which may be exactly what they want.
I thought the same exact thing.
-
1. Deep Nov. Tournament runs - 0
2. 10 + Conference wins per season - 2 out of 6
3. Big East regular season Championships - 0
4. Big East Tournament Championships - 0
5. NCAA appearances - 2 out of 5 (I also don't think they would have made it last year, but wont include it)
6. NCAA tournament Wins - 0
7. Advancing to the second weekend of the tournament - 0
8. Consistently ranked in the top 25 - 1 of 6 seasons
9. Ensure the team plays their best basketball in Feb. & March - 0 out of 6
In addition:
1. Wojo team's never get "old" due to transfer
2. Lack of team identity year-over-year
3. Cant keep the locker room in check - leads to Hauser's transferring (Remember Markus even spent Thanksgivings with the Hauser Family at one point)
4. Lack of in-game adjustments
I’m meh on Wojo. Point 1: they won the Legends Classic in 2015, beating LSU and ASU. Also, they were in the championship in Orlando last season.
-
I could make an argument to fire him, or I could make an argument to keep him. There are enough facts available for either side to make a strong case.
One argument I will not make, however is this one: Even if it is deemed that he sucks, Marquette shouldn't fire him unless we're sure that the next coach will be better.
That's silly. There never are assurances. For example, we didn't know Crean would be better than Deane. But Deane still had to go, and we had to trust that whomever we hired would do better.
Once you determine that your coach isn't good enough - a determination that often comes when you realize that either you have to extend his contract or move on - you make the break, you conduct as much due diligence as is humanly possible, and you hire the replacement.
I do agree with what you say about trying to determine if Wojo has reached his "ceiling," though again, that's just an opinion. There is no way to know. We could fire Wojo and he could click big-time at his next school. Or maybe February 2019 was as good as it will ever get for him.
Marquette's powers-that-be need to ask this question IMHO:
Can Wojo give us a long stretch of sustained success and lead us to the Final Four (and, preferably, multiple Final Fours) while also running a clean program?
If they determine the answer is no, he's gotta go. If they honestly believe that Final Fours are his "ceiling," then extend his contract so he doesn't go somewhere else to reach that ceiling.
6 1/2 years in, based on everything we've seen, I certainly wouldn't extend his contract if this season continues on its current trajectory.
If we don't make the tourney, or if we are a 10/11 seed with another first-round exit, and if we face an extend-or-move-on decision come March/April, I'd vote "move on."
I agree with this.
And, I was not suggesting you need a guarantee. Rather I was trying to say is if you believe the program hit a ceiling you find unacceptable, then you are willing to fire him and take a chance on some to be named later (throw the dart at the coaches convention).
For those that want to fire him ... You think getting rid of Wojo, watching Garcia and Lewis transfer, Carton go to Europe, and finishing 9 to 11 in the BE for two years as everything bottoms out and then moves back up preferable to keeping Wojo?
Are you at that point? Because firing him and then having the repeat of Buzz's first three years is fantasy. Buzz had all the stars align to have immediate success (and remember Crean left, he was not fired, so that matters). You cannot expect that to happen again.
-
The concept that firing Wojo is program suicide is invalid.
Wojo is going to leave MU within 5 years, full stop, no question.
If he continues in the same mediocre direction, it just can't continue forever. A dozen years would be far too many, but somewhere in there, he'd be let go.
If somehow there's success in 5 years, a nice run one season .. boom, he is "hired away."
Somewhere in the next 5 years, he's gone, and "half the team" will leave and MUBB will be rebuilding. Again.
On the plus side, MU must know this math.
-
The concept that firing Wojo is program suicide is invalid.
Wojo is going to leave MU within 5 years, full stop, no question.
If he continues in the same mediocre direction, it just can't continue forever. A dozen years would be far too many, but somewhere in there, he'd be let go.
If somehow there's success in 5 years, a nice run one season .. boom, he is "hired away."
Somewhere in the next 5 years, he's gone, and "half the team" will leave and MUBB will be rebuilding. Again.
On the plus side, MU must know this math.
So that takes away basically the single reason to hire Brian Wardle. If you just accept that if a coach has success here they'll bolt and you're fine with that and having to remake the roster every 5-10 years, then there is absolutely no reason to hire Brian Wardle. The only reason to bring him in is if you find it necessary to NOT be going through a coaching change every 5-10 years.
Also, if Wojo was mediocre through 7 years and Marquette stuck with him through another 5 years, I'd have to imagine the decision to leave for a different job would at least be a difficult one for him.
-
I’m not saying Wardle is the answer, but if I had two choices between him and wojo, it’s a no brainer.
Isn’t this just one choice between two coaches? Because if you had two choices, you wouldn’t have to make a choice at all.
-
We all point to recruiting as the one thing Wojo does well. But, how long can he continue to have recruiting success with no on-the-court success? Really good players don't get too excited about playing at mediocre programs. I also wonder if there is any method to Wojo's recruiting. Yes, I'm sure he is looking for a certain type of player in certain years. But, is he looking for players that fit a system he wants to put in place or just getting the players he can get and then trying to figure out what to do with them?
-
So that takes away basically the single reason to hire Brian Wardle. If you just accept that if a coach has success here they'll bolt and you're fine with that and having to remake the roster every 5-10 years, then there is absolutely no reason to hire Brian Wardle. The only reason to bring him in is if you find it necessary to NOT be going through a coaching change every 5-10 years.
Also, if Wojo was mediocre through 7 years and Marquette stuck with him through another 5 years, I'd have to imagine the decision to leave for a different job would at least be a difficult one for him.
I’m not sure that’s the single reason to hire Wardle. I think people default to Wardle because he’s had success as a mid-major coach, we know who he is, and we know he’d say yes. Personally, I don’t know of many mid-major coaches unless they make a tourney run or have their team in the Top 25. I know brewcity77 and others have more knowledge.
Honestly, I feel Wardle has a stronger resume than Wojo did. Wojo had a lot of great experience with Duke and Team USA, but he was never the main guy. Wardle has shown how he can lead a program. Not all of it has been great to be honest.
I’d be happy if we got someone with a better resume than Wardle. I just am not knowledgeable enough on the options that would say yes. I think if Wardle could raise his recruiting to a high major level with MU’s resources, he’s proven to be a good enough coach to win against his level and build a program. I don’t think we’ve seen that from Wojo yet.
-
Bobbly Hurley is a highly thought of young coach. He is in his 8th season with zero NCAA wins.
Would it be smart of AZ state to fire him?
2013–14 Buffalo 19–10 13–5 1st (East)
2014–15 Buffalo 23–10 12–6 T–1st (East) NCAA Division I Round of 64
Arizona State Sun Devils (Pac-12 Conference) (2015–present)
2015–16 Arizona State 15–17 5–13 11th
2016–17 Arizona State 15–18 7–11 8th
2017–18 Arizona State 20–12 8–10 T–8th NCAA Division I First Four
2018–19 Arizona State 23–11 12–6 2nd NCAA Division I Round of 64
2019–20 Arizona State 20–11 11–7 T–3rd No postseason held
2020–21 Arizona State 3–1 1-0
I don't follow Hurley or ASU but it does look like he is improving that program consistently based on records. Heck, based on my prior comment about not knowing anything other than his record, I would hire him in a second to replace Wojo today. Wojo has hit his ceiling.
-
First, he is not. Yes, it has been uneven. But, as I noted above, I still don't think he has hit his ceiling.
Second, this is a lazy argument.
I'm open to firing any coach in any sport this season if you can make an argument for who should replace them and why that is an upgrade.
So you fire Wojo, and replace him with who?
1) Hotshot assistant. Since they have no track record, that is guessing that he works out. Besides, MU has done this many times with the hottest assistant names. See Hank, Majerus, O'Neill, Crean, Buzz and Wojo.
2) Proven mid-major coach? So, you take Brian Wardle, or a Brian Wardle type, and hope they are not the next Bob Dukiet or Mike Deane. Good luck
3) Take a big "name." St. Johns did this with Chris Mullins and Georgetown did with Patrick Ewing. How's that working out.
4) A retread? See My Ben Howland comments above. So, you can Wojo and hire Steve Lavin, or a Steve Lavin type. Feel better?
My point is you have to be absolutely sure Wojo is at his ceiling and that is not acceptable. I do not think he is at his ceiling.
So firing him and means you are ready to throw a dart at the NCAA coaches convention and take whatever ass it hits. Are you really ready for MU to do that? Is that an upgrade?
Now that, is a hugely wrong opinion.
-
Wardle is probably a stronger coach but I wouldn't trust his temperament for a second here. If he's gotten in hot water at UWGB, and been thin-skinned with the media at Bradley... I fear the pressure of being an alum and the expectations around the program would be too much.
-
The concept that firing Wojo is program suicide is invalid.
Wojo is going to leave MU within 5 years, full stop, no question.
If he continues in the same mediocre direction, it just can't continue forever. A dozen years would be far too many, but somewhere in there, he'd be let go.
If somehow there's success in 5 years, a nice run one season .. boom, he is "hired away."
Somewhere in the next 5 years, he's gone, and "half the team" will leave and MUBB will be rebuilding. Again.
On the plus side, MU must know this math.
What separates Wardle from probably 98% of other candidates is that you would assume this is his final destination job. I think that’s important for a school like Mu.
Personally I really like him because he’s had success at two different head coaching stops. Proving you can win at different levels and cutting your chops running a program makes a huge difference when you step into a new role.
He’s certainly not the only candidate, but for me, he and TJO are 1 and 1A.
-
Agreed, Wardle's draw is that he could be "loyal." I don't think that exists any more. If Wardle had decent success at MU, he would be offered better jobs. Maybe he hesitates extra. Yay.
I think the Wojo era has emphasized that if you're not Duke, Kansas, Kentucky etc, the coach you hire must be adept at making the team greater than the sum of its parts.
If Wardle is that guy, great.
-
Agreed, Wardle's draw is that he could be "loyal." I don't think that exists any more. If Wardle had decent success at MU, he would be offered better jobs. Maybe he hesitates extra. Yay.
I think the Wojo era has emphasized that if you're not Duke, Kansas, Kentucky etc, the coach you hire must be adept at making the team greater than the sum of its parts.
If Wardle is that guy, great.
Forget about greater than the sum of their parts. Has Wojo ever made a team play to the sum of its parts?
How many really good players have left the program over his tenure only to play a lead role on a team ranked much better than ours? Wojo has had the pieces to create consistently Top 25 teams if they played to the sum of their parts.
I am probably in the minority here, but I think the talent on this year’s roster is actually really really good. Probably the second best roster Wojo has ever had behind the Howard/Hausers year. They just play so painfully disjointed and out of synch that it makes us, frankly, a bad basketball team. Nobody’s skills compliment those of the guy next to him, our offense is dominated by the 1 on 1 game, and we turn the ball over so prolifically that we haven’t even had a good look at a game where we can get into a set consistently.
Is that all coaching? Maybe or maybe not. But it’s not very fun to watch right now.
-
First, he is not. Yes, it has been uneven. But, as I noted above, I still don't think he has hit his ceiling.
Second, this is a lazy argument.
I'm open to firing any coach in any sport this season if you can make an argument for who should replace them and why that is an upgrade.
So you fire Wojo, and replace him with who?
1) Hotshot assistant. Since they have no track record, that is guessing that he works out. Besides, MU has done this many times with the hottest assistant names. See Hank, Majerus, O'Neill, Crean, Buzz and Wojo.
2) Proven mid-major coach? So, you take Brian Wardle, or a Brian Wardle type, and hope they are not the next Bob Dukiet or Mike Deane. Good luck
3) Take a big "name." St. Johns did this with Chris Mullins and Georgetown did with Patrick Ewing. How's that working out.
4) A retread? See My Ben Howland comments above. So, you can Wojo and hire Steve Lavin, or a Steve Lavin type. Feel better?
My point is you have to be absolutely sure Wojo is at his ceiling and that is not acceptable. I do not think he is at his ceiling.
So firing him and means you are ready to throw a dart at the NCAA coaches convention and take whatever ass it hits. Are you really ready for MU to do that? Is that an upgrade?
Thank you Brother Heise. You're right on the money here.
I'll add to that the question of Marquette being revenue challenged, having to meet contractual obligations to Coach Wojo and facing considerable blowback from a faculty and staff that has seen its numbers thinned. Plus, our basketball revenue in 2020-2021 is way down and given the malaise that's sweeping the program, 2021-2022 won't be at level to which Marquette has become accustomed.
Given these trends, there is NO chance the university goes for a high-cost, big name, "future is now" coach. Plus, the best coaches in the USA are quirky. Yeah, we'd all like Jay Wright and his button-downed, classy and classic PR image, who wins Nattys. But this gentleman isn't coming to Marquette any more than Roy Williams or Billy Donovan will!
I'm a Nojo at this point, but I'm also realistic. The last time we had revenue issues was in the 1980s, when the Baby Boom finished being educated, and look what we got -- BOB DUKIET! I'm disgusted by the UConn game on several levels and place the blame for that failure on the coaching staff. We've had too many meltdowns in recent years but as our Brother Heise points out, before you make a change, be sure you can do better.
For the record, Brian Wardle AINT IT!
-
Even for all of the arguments that Wojo is a good and successful coaches, it can also be true that he has, unfortunately, been unable to meet the expectations consistently while at Marquette. In that regard, it very much has been revealed to no longer be a long-term fit. A previous poster referenced that the expectations for this year should have been (and should be) tempered, due to the reality that this year's team is a rebuilding year. That is an unwise response, IMO, to categorize the struggles of where the program is presently at because no program with a tenured coach within a power conference (and, especially) as a high-major program should ever need to go through a rebuild (retool, yes, but never rebuild). If the program is without depth, experienced skill players or a balanced roster, that, once again, falls upon the head coach. The continued lack of consistency, once again, falls one the head coach.
Even for the argument that Wojo should not be replaced because there is no guarantee his successor would be better is a short-sighted and fearful one. That is similar to refusing to go out and play because there is a possibility of losing. No successful athletic department or business would ever operate that way, and many successful ones certainly do not do that.
I have no idea when Wojo and Marquette part ways (it could be after this season, it could be five years from now; but it will happen). What I remain strongly believing in is that the next head coach of Marquette will be an individual with head coaching experience, that I can almost guarantee. If a search opened up today, I would imagine (knowing how our athletic department and school have viewed candidates under current administration) the following types of coaches would be under consideration: guys like Wardle, Porter Moser, and Darian DeVries (head coaches from successful programs in smaller conferences, with a Private/Catholic background either as a head coach, assistant coach or player (all of Scholl's hires have had this, either at MU or elsewhere). I also think Diener could get some interest, but I don't think he would reciprocate it. Given the failures of Penny Hardaway at Memphis (who was hired purely for his name and AAU connections), I can't envision a situation for a Joe Chapman being seriously considered either. And Doc certainly isn't going to be interested.
Marquette is not hiring a current head coach from another P5 school (i.e. Oats); Oats is already making $2.5 million at Alabama, not including bonuses. I believe Wojo is under that (and the school isn't going to be paying that much for two separate staffs, at least I don't think). I also think a wild card, given Scholl's connections, could be Mike Brey. Brey and ND might be looking at a separation after the season (ND remains down, and have struggled past few seasons), and I believe (could be wrong) it was rumored on Scoop in 2014 that Brey's reps expressed interest in the MU job at Buzz left (ND had just spent its first season in the ACC, went 15-17 and break hadn't advanced back to S16 since 2003. Could be wrong about that though.
Even though they are available, Gregg Marshall or Pat Chambers are both for sure not happening. No way the school is hiring an available coach that has their baggage.
While it is not open, it is fun to speculate what a search in 2021 would look like. 2014 was so much fun between the flight trackers and #DoneDeal.
-
Talent=B
Coachin'=D
Overall=C
aka not good 'nough for Marquette, hey?
-
Forget about greater than the sum of their parts. Has Wojo ever made a team play to the sum of its parts?
How many really good players have left the program over his tenure only to play a lead role on a team ranked much better than ours? Wojo has had the pieces to create consistently Top 25 teams if they played to the sum of their parts.
I am probably in the minority here, but I think the talent on this year’s roster is actually really really good. Probably the second best roster Wojo has ever had behind the Howard/Hausers year. They just play so painfully disjointed and out of synch that it makes us, frankly, a bad basketball team. Nobody’s skills compliment those of the guy next to him, our offense is dominated by the 1 on 1 game, and we turn the ball over so prolifically that we haven’t even had a good look at a game where we can get into a set consistently.
Is that all coaching? Maybe or maybe not. But it’s not very fun to watch right now.
3? And 2 of them are currently on teams at the very back end of the top 25.
-
I'm open to firing any coach in any sport this season if you can make an argument for who should replace them and why that is an upgrade.
So you fire Wojo, and replace him with who?
No this is a lazy argument.
Have you ever fired anyone? If so, did you replace that person? I unfortunately have fired people, and yes, I did replace them. Did I know who I was going to replace them with when they were fired? Nope. Was I sure it was going to be an upgrade? Nope.
But I believed it would be. And in each case I was right.
Also, it isn't my job to figure out who to replace Wojo with. That's what an AD is supposed to do. All I am doing is giving my feeble input on a message board that I don't think he is doing his job well. I'm not a big donor. I'm not a season ticket holder. Outside of owning some Marquette gear and buying tickets off the secondary market once or twice a year, that's the extent of my fandom.
-
3? And 2 of them are currently on teams at the very back end of the top 25.
Deonte Burton, Duane Wilson, Joey Hauser, Sam Hauser I think of just right off the top of my head. So that’s at least 4...
-
Deonte Burton, Duane Wilson, Joey Hauser, Sam Hauser I think of just right off the top of my head. So that’s at least 4...
You have quite a liberal definition of "really good player".
-
Deonte Burton, Duane Wilson, Joey Hauser, Sam Hauser I think of just right off the top of my head. So that’s at least 4...
Duane Wilson had a "lead role" at Texas A&M? He averaged 9 points for them and started 16 games. 5th in minutes, 6th in points, 5th in games started. And they were a 7 seed who was in the top 25 for just one of the last 9 polls of the season, and none of the last four heading into the NCAA Tournament.
-
Duane Wilson had a "lead role" at Texas A&M? He averaged 9 points for them and started 16 games. 5th in minutes, 6th in points, 5th in games started. And they were a 7 seed who was in the top 25 for just one of the last 9 polls of the season, and none of the last four heading into the NCAA Tournament.
That's not entirely fair to Duane. He was playing pretty well up until his knee injury.
-
Duane Wilson had a "lead role" at Texas A&M? He averaged 9 points for them and started 16 games. 5th in minutes, 6th in points, 5th in games started. And they were a 7 seed who was in the top 25 for just one of the last 9 polls of the season, and none of the last four heading into the NCAA Tournament.
Well he injured his knee in February so not being in the Top 25 for last four weeks of the year actually helps my case that he was playing a lead role on that team. They were ranked in the Top 10 when he was healthy. The knee injury also defeats your point that he started only 16 games.
9 points (6th on his team), 4 assists (1st on his team), 1.1 steals (2nd on his team), 2 rebs (7th on his team as a point guard, no less).
Sounds like he played a lead role when he was healthy. Note that I never said THE lead role as I know you love to try to play semantics.
You paint him to be a scrub to absolve Wojo of wrongdoing.
-
That's not entirely fair to Duane. He was playing pretty well up until his knee injury.
He played awesome and was really the engine of that team at PG until he tore his ACL. He wanted to play PG, A&M gave him that opportunity and he took full advantage of it.
5-8 without him
17-5 with him
-
You have quite a liberal definition of "really good player".
Those four guys plus, let’s say, Theo, would earn a top 3 seed in the NCAAT with a good coach (let’s say Buzz).
Might be a hot take but I believe it to be true.
-
Well he injured his knee in February so not being in the Top 25 for last four weeks of the year actually helps my case that he was playing a lead role on that team. They were ranked in the Top 10 when he was healthy. The knee injury also defeats your point that he started only 16 games.
9 points (6th on his team), 4 assists (1st on his team), 1.1 steals (2nd on his team), 2 rebs (7th on his team as a point guard, no less).
Sounds like he played a lead role when he was healthy. Note that I never said THE lead role as I know you love to try to play semantics.
You paint him to be a scrub to absolve Wojo of wrongdoing.
I mean, if 9/4/2 is a lead role then there are a LOT of guys with lead roles around the country.
-
I mean, if 9/4/2 is a lead role then there are a LOT of guys with lead roles around the country.
Only a Sith speaks in absolutes. On his team - he was playing lead role when he was healthy. Sorry Wades...
-
I mean, if 9/4/2 is a lead role then there are a LOT of guys with lead roles around the country.
By the way 3 players in the country averaged 9/4/2/1 in 2019-2020 and 10 players averaged that line in 2018-2019 including Ja Morant, Cassius Winston, Sam Merrill, and Jeremiah Martin.
Any other snarky responses Wades??
-
The discussion about Wojo's ceiling and if he has hit it or where it will be, makes me think he could become Mike Brey. He has a ways to go but, JMO, that was one coach I thought of.
-
Only a Sith speaks in absolutes. On his team - he was playing lead role when he was healthy. Sorry Wades...
I don't know what your definition of "lead role" is, but he certainly wasn't anywhere near the player that Davis, Hogg, Williams, or Gilder were. He played 22 games for TAMU. He started 16. I don't know why you're pumping him up. (Well, I do. You think it makes Wojo look worse)
It'd be like claiming Junior Cadougan was playing "lead role" (again, whatever that is to you) for Marquette's Elite 8 team. Which is silly. He was just a guy at TAMU. But sure, throw him in there as a "lead role" guy on a "top 25" team.
If "lead role" is "point guard," then that drops the number from 3 to 0, as Burton and the Hausers are not playing point guard, and TAMU was not a top 25 team. If "lead role" is "major reason for team success," then Duane was certainly not that.
-
I don't know what your definition of "lead role" is, but he certainly wasn't anywhere near the player that Davis, Hogg, Williams, or Gilder were. He played 22 games for TAMU. He started 16. I don't know why you're pumping him up. (Well, I do. You think it makes Wojo look worse)
It'd be like claiming Junior Cadougan was playing "lead role" (again, whatever that is to you) for Marquette's Elite 8 team. Which is silly. He was just a guy at TAMU. But sure, throw him in there as a "lead role" guy on a "top 25" team.
If "lead role" is "point guard," then that drops the number from 3 to 0, as Burton and the Hausers are not playing point guard, and TAMU was not a top 25 team. If "lead role" is "major reason for team success," then Duane was certainly not that.
Alright - Duane Wilson was trash and had nothing to do with the direction or success of TAMU and we’re lucky he decided to grad transfer.
Is that better? You win.
-
Alright - Duane Wilson was trash and had nothing to do with the direction or success of TAMU and we’re lucky he decided to grad transfer.
Is that better? You win.
Thanks.
Not exactly what I said. But when every argument you have fails miserably I suppose that's what you have to go with at the end of the day. I mean, you honestly championed 2 rebounds per game and being 7th on his team in rebounds per game because, well, point guard. When's the last time Marquette had a point guard that averaged UNDER 2 rebounds per game? This year their point guard is at 3.4 and 5th on the team. WOW! Last year their point guard was at 5.0 and 4th on the team. SHEESH! The year before their point guard was at 4.0 per game and 5th on the team. GOODNESS GRACIOUS! The year before that, 3.0 per game and 5th on the team. INCREDIBLE!
Seriously. He was just a guy. Nothing wrong with it. He would've helped Marquette. But to pretend Wojo let this uber talented player slip away only to see him kill it for a wildly successful team is beyond revisionist history.
-
Only a Sith speaks in absolutes.
For as much grief the prequel and sequel trilogies get, this line is 100% true - and very, very applicable in today's world.
-
The last time we had revenue issues was in the 1980s, when the Baby Boom finished being educated, and look what we got -- BOB DUKIET! I'm disgusted by the UConn game on several levels and place the blame for that failure on the coaching staff. We've had too many meltdowns in recent years but as our Brother Heise points out, before you make a change, be sure you can do better.
For the record, Brian Wardle AINT IT!
Let's go back to the mid-1980s. MU abandoned Rick Majerus after three lackluster years and hired Bob Dukiet. That was an unmitigated disaster both ways.
Dukiet killed the program.
I was a student at the time and what many are saying here about Wojo are the same thing that was said about Majerus back then. Majerus lost the team (see his "words" with Dwayne Johnson), he could not recruit (see Joe Wolf) and he was a bad game manager. In other words, he hit his ceiling.
I've been trying to say it can take a decade or more for a new coach to hit their stride. I gave the examples of Willard, Wright, Coach K, and even Bobbly Hurley. Wojo is still in the learning period, it should be over in a season or two. I would rather let this play out then blow it all up and start over at the bottom of the conference.
MU made a disastrous choice in dumping Majerus. Because his ceiling was very high, and this is what he did at Utah (and not MU).
1990–91 Utah 30–4 15–1 1st NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1991–92 Utah 24–11 9–7 T–4th NIT Third Place
1992–93 Utah 24–7 15–3 T–1st NCAA Division I Second Round
1993–94 Utah 14–14 8–10 T–5th
1994–95 Utah 28–6 15–3 1st NCAA Division I Second Round
1995–96 Utah 27–7 15–3 1st NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1996–97 Utah 29–4 15–1 1st (Mountain) NCAA Division I Elite Eight
1997–98 Utah 30–4 12–2 1st (Mountain) NCAA Division I Runner-up
1998–99 Utah 28–5 14–0 1st (Pacific) NCAA Division I Second Round
-----
Bailing on Wojo now because everyone is upset about the Uconn game (I am too) can indeed be program suicide. Like it was suicide to dump Majerus.
-
Honestly, I feel Wardle has a stronger resume than Wojo did. Wojo had a lot of great experience with Duke and Team USA, but he was never the main guy. Wardle has shown how he can lead a program. Not all of it has been great to be honest.
Tom Crean was a top assistant at MSU. A similar, and unimpressive resume...as both he and Wojo were assistants. There are no guarantees on the next coach's success whether that person comes from the mid major HC ranks or as a top assistant at a HM.
-
Let's go back to the mid-1980s. MU abandoned Rick Majerus after three lackluster years and hired Bob Dukiet. That was an unmitigated disaster both ways.
Dukiet killed the program.
I was a student at the time and what many are saying here about Wojo are the same thing that was said about Majerus back then. Majerus lost the team (see his "words" with Dwayne Johnson), he could not recruit (see Joe Wolf) and he was a bad game manager. In other words, he hit his ceiling.
I've been trying to say it can take a decade or more for a new coach to hit their stride. I gave the examples of Willard, Wright, Coach K, and even Bobbly Hurley. Wojo is still in the learning period, it should be over in a season or two. I would rather let this play out then blow it all up and start over at the bottom of the conference.
MU made a disastrous choice of dumping Majerus. Because his ceiling was very high, and this is what he did at Utah (and not MU).
1990–91 Utah 30–4 15–1 1st NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1991–92 Utah 24–11 9–7 T–4th NIT Third Place
1992–93 Utah 24–7 15–3 T–1st NCAA Division I Second Round
1993–94 Utah 14–14 8–10 T–5th
1994–95 Utah 28–6 15–3 1st NCAA Division I Second Round
1995–96 Utah 27–7 15–3 1st NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1996–97 Utah 29–4 15–1 1st (Mountain) NCAA Division I Elite Eight
1997–98 Utah 30–4 12–2 1st (Mountain) NCAA Division I Runner-up
1998–99 Utah 28–5 14–0 1st (Pacific) NCAA Division I Second Round
-----
Bailing on Wojo now because everyone is upset about the Conn game (I am too) can indeed be program suicide. Like it was suicide to dump Majerus.
Going through the Dukiet era showed everyone had far the program had fallen - a process that started long before he was hired. But going through that time, and reemerging under O'Neill, was a better alternative than sticking with Majerus. O'Neill came in from a successful program, and knew Marquette was behind. Bill Cords knew it too.
Also, Majerus heading out on his own at Ball State and Utah was better for him.
Both had to get away from the Legacy of Al. And it worked for both parties.
-
Thanks.
Not exactly what I said. But when every argument you have fails miserably I suppose that's what you have to go with at the end of the day. I mean, you honestly championed 2 rebounds per game and being 7th on his team in rebounds per game because, well, point guard. When's the last time Marquette had a point guard that averaged UNDER 2 rebounds per game? This year their point guard is at 3.4 and 5th on the team. WOW! Last year their point guard was at 5.0 and 4th on the team. SHEESH! The year before their point guard was at 4.0 per game and 5th on the team. GOODNESS GRACIOUS! The year before that, 3.0 per game and 5th on the team. INCREDIBLE!
Seriously. He was just a guy. Nothing wrong with it. He would've helped Marquette. But to pretend Wojo let this uber talented player slip away only to see him kill it for a wildly successful team is beyond revisionist history.
I watched every game Duane played at Texas A & M until he got injured and then followed the team the rest of the season since I invested the time.
I think an accurate description of Duane’s role was as a spark plug at the point guard position . He added some dynamism to their offense that enabled the other guys to reach their best potential . I thought Swaggy played similar to how he did his first season at MU.
I felt bad for Duane when he got hurt because he was giving his all every game , which was one of his hallmark traits .
-
I watched every game Duane played at Texas A & M until he got injured and then followed the team the rest of the season since I invested the time.
I think an accurate description of Duane’s role was as a spark plug at the point guard position . He added some dynamism to their offense that enabled the other guys to reach their best potential . I thought Swaggy played similar to how he did his first season at MU.
I felt bad for Duane when he got hurt because he was giving his all every game , which was one of his hallmark traits .
I don't disagree with any of this. He helped a solid team. We don't have to pretend he was the key ingredient to one of the very best teams in the country. I loved Duane from the second he committed, and then loved him even more when he ripped into Nigel Hayes. But injuries limited him to a role player for his college career. Which is not someone who has a "lead role."
-
I don't disagree with any of this. He helped a solid team. We don't have to pretend he was the key ingredient to one of the very best teams in the country. I loved Duane from the second he committed, and then loved him even more when he ripped into Nigel Hayes. But injuries limited him to a role player for his college career. Which is not someone who has a "lead role."
There's a reason they were 17-5 with him and 5-8 without. They were a much better team with him in the lineup. No, he didn't put up star numbers, but they were an excellent team with him and a mediocre team without him. Maybe it's coincidence, but from what I saw, they were at their best when he was at his best.
That said, they had that monster win over UNC in the Tournament without him, but it was their only top-50 win without him. 6-3 vs top-50 with Duane, 1-4 without him.
-
There's a reason they were 17-5 with him and 5-8 without. They were a much better team with him in the lineup. No, he didn't put up star numbers, but they were an excellent team with him and a mediocre team without him. Maybe it's coincidence, but from what I saw, they were at their best when he was at his best.
That said, they had that monster win over UNC in the Tournament without him, but it was their only top-50 win without him. 6-3 vs top-50 with Duane, 1-4 without him.
I don't know who was ranked where in terms of top 50, but against the 15 high major teams he played against, he averaged 7.5 points, 1.9 rebounds, 3.8 assists, and 2.3 turnovers in 22.5 minutes per game while shooting 36% and 29% from 3. He's the very definition of "just a guy." And certainly not playing a "lead role" on a great team. He's just not. An "important role player" is how I'd define him, both at TAMU and MU.
-
Going through the Dukiet era showed everyone had far the program had fallen - a process that started long before he was hired. But going through that time, and reemerging under O'Neill, was a better alternative than sticking with Majerus. O'Neill came in from a successful program, and knew Marquette was behind. Bill Cords knew it too.
Also, Majerus heading out on his own at Ball State and Utah was better for him.
Both had to get away from the Legacy of Al. And it worked for both parties.
I had an old boss whose parents were close friends with the Majerus family. Now, this is in the early 2000's he told me this but Rick told them his biggest mistake was taking the MU job. He loved the school so much the negative results affected him personally. He also had friends turn on him because of MU's lack of success. He had to leave for his own good.
-
I don't know who was ranked where in terms of top 50, but against the 15 high major teams he played against, he averaged 7.4 points, 1.9 rebounds, 3.8 assists, and 2.3 turnovers in 22.5 minutes per game while shooting 36% and 29% from 3. He's the very definition of "just a guy." And certainly not playing a "lead role" on a great team. He's just not.
He was averaging 27.1 mpg before the injury. He was putting up 12.1 ppg & 4.5 apg with a 107.0 offensive rating.
He wasn't the same after the injury, but anyone that doesn't think he was a major piece of that team and one of their most important players before he got hurt simply wasn't paying attention and to say so now is either faulty memory or denial of reality. They were ranked #5 on Pomeroy, #5 in the AP, #6 in the Coaches Poll, and #10 in T-Rank. Then he got hurt and they plummeted from those rankings.
I don't think he would've had the same impact had he stayed. He would've been fighting for minutes behind Rowsey and Howard, who were clearly behind him on Wojo's depth chart. But to say he wasn't a major piece of that TAMU team just doesn't comport with reality. I remember watching that team pretty frequently in the early parts of that season and Duane wasn't their star (Davis was), but he was just as important to what they did as Admon Gilder or DJ Hogg.
Calling him "just a guy" on that team is about as honest as Murff saying Travis Diener was a "dime-a-dozen." You can defend Wojo without minimizing the reality of what Duane was at TAMU.
-
He was averaging 27.1 mpg before the injury. He was putting up 12.1 ppg & 4.5 apg with a 107.0 offensive rating.
He wasn't the same after the injury, but anyone that doesn't think he was a major piece of that team and one of their most important players before he got hurt simply wasn't paying attention and to say so now is either faulty memory or denial of reality. They were ranked #5 on Pomeroy, #5 in the AP, #6 in the Coaches Poll, and #10 in T-Rank. Then he got hurt and they plummeted from those rankings.
I don't think he would've had the same impact had he stayed. He would've been fighting for minutes behind Rowsey and Howard, who were clearly behind him on Wojo's depth chart. But to say he wasn't a major piece of that TAMU team just doesn't comport with reality. I remember watching that team pretty frequently in the early parts of that season and Duane wasn't their star (Davis was), but he was just as important to what they did as Admon Gilder or DJ Hogg.
Calling him "just a guy" on that team is about as honest as Murff saying Travis Diener was a "dime-a-dozen." You can defend Wojo without minimizing the reality of what Duane was at TAMU.
Wades/BLM is an insufferable contrarian that will grab a white knuckle hold on the most minute of details and fight them tooth and nail to try to appear “right” about something no matter how many times or ways you prove him wrong.
Eventually you just have to disengage and let him go to sleep thinking he got his win.
-
Wades/BLM is an insufferable contrarian that will grab a white knuckle hold on the most minute of details and fight them tooth and nail to try to appear “right” about something no matter how many times or ways you prove him wrong.
Eventually you just have to disengage and let him go to sleep thinking he got his win.
Yes. Because I don’t think Duane Wilson had a “leading roll” on a “top 25 team” because he was the 5th or 6th best player on a team that wasn’t in the top 25 means I’m contrarian lol.
He was averaging 27.1 mpg before the injury. He was putting up 12.1 ppg & 4.5 apg with a 107.0 offensive rating.
He wasn't the same after the injury, but anyone that doesn't think he was a major piece of that team and one of their most important players before he got hurt simply wasn't paying attention and to say so now is either faulty memory or denial of reality. They were ranked #5 on Pomeroy, #5 in the AP, #6 in the Coaches Poll, and #10 in T-Rank. Then he got hurt and they plummeted from those rankings.
I don't think he would've had the same impact had he stayed. He would've been fighting for minutes behind Rowsey and Howard, who were clearly behind him on Wojo's depth chart. But to say he wasn't a major piece of that TAMU team just doesn't comport with reality. I remember watching that team pretty frequently in the early parts of that season and Duane wasn't their star (Davis was), but he was just as important to what they did as Admon Gilder or DJ Hogg.
Calling him "just a guy" on that team is about as honest as Murff saying Travis Diener was a "dime-a-dozen." You can defend Wojo without minimizing the reality of what Duane was at TAMU.
First we wanted to focus on higher level competition and the team’s record. Then when we saw Duane didn’t play very well against high level competition it became let’s look at his numbers pre injury. His injury ended his season. So any numbers pre injury were his entire season numbers. Which were not 12.1 ppg or 4.5 apg.
The guy was never more than a role player. He had 5 years in college and he was just a guy. You can revise history to make it look like he left Marquette and suddenly was an All American. But he wasn’t. He was TAMU’s Junior Cadougan. Solid guy to have on the team. Not a “lead role” unless you define that as a point guard. Which, again, eliminated Sam, Joey, and Deonte from this conversation.
But I’m glad he’s getting this narrative from MU fans. We should throw his number in the rafters. MU grad. Gave us 4 years. And just a giant player once he got free from Wojo. I mean, we're seriously saying Duane Wilson was Travis Diener?!
Diener averaged 20, 7, and 4. An Honorable Mention All American. Duane was 9, 4, and 2. Did he ever get even a single All Conference vote in his career? I mean, come on. You're definitely better than this.
-
First we wanted to focus on higher level competition and the team’s record. Then when we saw Duane didn’t play very well against high level competition it became let’s look at his numbers pre injury. His injury ended his season. So any numbers pre injury were his entire season numbers. Which were not 12.1 ppg or 4.5 apg.
The guy was never more than a role player. He had 5 years in college and he was just a guy. You can revise history to make it look like he left Marquette and suddenly was an All American. But he wasn’t. He was TAMU’s Junior Cadougan. Solid guy to have on the team. Not a “lead role” unless you define that as a point guard. Which, again, eliminated Sam, Joey, and Deonte from this conversation.
But I’m glad he’s getting this narrative from MU fans. We should throw his number in the rafters. MU grad. Gave us 4 years. And just a giant player once he got free from Wojo. I mean, we're seriously saying Duane Wilson was Travis Diener?!
Diener averaged 20, 7, and 4. An Honorable Mention All American. Duane was 9, 4, and 2. Did he ever get even a single All Conference vote in his career? I mean, come on. You're definitely better than this.
You realize that Duane got injured after 13 games, correct? He then tried to come back despite the injury, was not the same player, and then shut it down. During that initial stretch, he was one of the best players on a consensus top-10 team. I didn't say he was an All-American. I didn't say he was All-Conference. But he was far more than just a caretaker Junior Cadougan.
I get it, you didn't watch TAMU after he went there. That's fine. He was an important player on that team when that team was in the top-10. If anything, their fall from the top-10 after he got hurt only increases his importance to the team, it doesn't decrease it as you falsely assert.
Also, the narrative you assert and the "Duane Wilson was Travis Diener" quote is absolutely, 100% a false equivocation that completely fails to actually read what I wrote. I said that you calling him "just a guy" is as honest as Murff calling Diener "Dime-a-dozen." That doesn't make the players the same, it makes the assertions equally bad. And your assertion is flat out bad.
Seriously, you're embarrassing yourself. Just take the L on this and move on.
-
You realize that Duane got injured after 13 games, correct? He then tried to come back despite the injury, was not the same player, and then shut it down. During that initial stretch, he was one of the best players on a consensus top-10 team. I didn't say he was an All-American. I didn't say he was All-Conference. But he was far more than just a caretaker Junior Cadougan.
I get it, you didn't watch TAMU after he went there. That's fine. He was an important player on that team when that team was in the top-10. If anything, their fall from the top-10 after he got hurt only increases his importance to the team, it doesn't decrease it as you falsely assert.
Also, the narrative you assert and the "Duane Wilson was Travis Diener" quote is absolutely, 100% a false equivocation that completely fails to actually read what I wrote. I said that you calling him "just a guy" is as honest as Murff calling Diener "Dime-a-dozen." That doesn't make the players the same, it makes the assertions equally bad. And your assertion is flat out bad.
Seriously, you're embarrassing yourself. Just take the L on this and move on.
Don’t confuse wade with the facts
-
You realize that Duane got injured after 13 games, correct? He then tried to come back despite the injury, was not the same player, and then shut it down. During that initial stretch, he was one of the best players on a consensus top-10 team. I didn't say he was an All-American. I didn't say he was All-Conference. But he was far more than just a caretaker Junior Cadougan.
I get it, you didn't watch TAMU after he went there. That's fine. He was an important player on that team when that team was in the top-10. If anything, their fall from the top-10 after he got hurt only increases his importance to the team, it doesn't decrease it as you falsely assert.
Also, the narrative you assert and the "Duane Wilson was Travis Diener" quote is absolutely, 100% a false equivocation that completely fails to actually read what I wrote. I said that you calling him "just a guy" is as honest as Murff calling Diener "Dime-a-dozen." That doesn't make the players the same, it makes the assertions equally bad. And your assertion is flat out bad.
Seriously, you're embarrassing yourself. Just take the L on this and move on.
Duane played every single one of TAMU’s first 22 games. He then partially tore his ACL and did not play another game. Can you “come back” when you never left or missed time?
Right. To you, calling Diener “dime a dozen” (aka just a guy) is just as bad as calling Duane “just a guy.” You’re claiming they’re the same caliber. If you weren’t, calling Duane “just a guy” wouldn’t be close to “as honest” as calling Diener “dime a dozen.”
For someone who is clearly very upset at the lack of analytics MU uses, you sure seem to ignore the analytics when they disagree with your agenda. Duane was absolutely just a guy. He was never anything more.
But again, good for the guy for becoming equal to an All American and 2 time First Team All Conference, NBA player.
-
Duane played every single one of TAMU’s first 22 games. He then partially tore his ACL and did not play another game. Can you “come back” when you never left or missed time?
Right. To you, calling Diener “dime a dozen” (aka just a guy) is just as bad as calling Duane “just a guy.” You’re claiming they’re the same caliber. If you weren’t, calling Duane “just a guy” wouldn’t be close to “as honest” as calling Diener “dime a dozen.”
For someone who is clearly very upset at the lack of analytics MU uses, you sure seem to ignore the analytics when they disagree with your agenda. Duane was absolutely just a guy. He was never anything more.
But again, good for the guy for becoming equal to an All American and 2 time First Team All Conference, NBA player.
He hurt his knee, missed three games, came back and then it was discovered he had a partially torn acl and his season was over.
Fact check shows he did not play in the first 22 games.
-
He hurt his knee, missed three games, came back and then it was discovered he had a partially torn acl and his season was over.
Fact check shows he did not play in the first 22 games.
Got it. So he played 5 high major games in which he was ineffective in 4 and had a great game against Penn State. Ate up on some cupcakes. And suddenly he’s Travis Diener.
Makes more sense now.
-
Got it. So he played 5 high major games in which he was ineffective in 4 and had a great game against Penn State. Ate up on some cupcakes. And suddenly he’s Travis Diener.
Makes more sense now.
As I said before, he was the engine of a really, really good team, playing a solid point.
Frankly it’s pretty pathetic you’re trying to rip him now. You’ve been proven incorrect multiple times and have shifted the goalposts several times as well. Par for the course.
-
As I said before, he was the engine of a really, really good team, playing a solid point.
Frankly it’s pretty pathetic you’re trying to rip him now. You’ve been proven incorrect multiple times and have shifted the goalposts several times as well. Par for the course.
Yes. If you think Duane is less than Travis Diener you’re trying to rip him. Lol. Who’s moving the goalposts? He was average. You can try to explain it away as intangibles, injury, whatever. He was not Travis Diener. He did not have a “lead role.” He was a role player.
-
Wojo played Duane off the ball for most of his time at Marquette, which I don't think was the best way to use him. He was a Buzz player through and through and his style didn't really fit with the other guys Wojo was bringing in. He had kind of an unfortunate college career because of that. Always liked his intensity and passion even though he struggled to find a role after that first season where he dropped 30 a couple times.
-
Wades/BLM is an insufferable contrarian that will grab a white knuckle hold on the most minute of details and fight them tooth and nail to try to appear “right” about something no matter how many times or ways you prove him wrong.
Eventually you just have to disengage and let him go to sleep thinking he got his win.
the BLM moniker says it all.
-
the BLM moniker says it all.
Yes. Black lives do not matter to some. But they'll still expect young black men to go out on the court and entertain them for $0.00.
-
Yes. Black lives do not matter to some. But they'll still expect young black men to go out on the court and entertain them for $0.00.
weak argument...I mean, weak. I believe I speak for the majority... ALL lives matter. You see color, apparently. I don’t. I expect the TEAM to do well. Like I said, your moniker speaks for itself. btw, please don’t reply. I’m not going to engage in nickel & dime BS as you like to do with others here.
-
Season A: 8.5 points, 3.8 assists, 2.9 rebounds, 2.5 turnovers in 28.1 mpg. eFG% 45.8, total rebounding % 6.7, assist % 28.3, turnover % 22.5, usage 20.9%
Season B: 19.7 points, 7.0 assists, 3.9 rebounds, 2.5 turnovers in 34 mpg. eFG% 52.9, total rebounding % 6.9, assist % 53.3, turnover % 13.2, usage 29.7%
Season C: 9.0 points, 4.0 assists, 2.0 rebounds, 2.4 turnovers in 24.0 mpg. eFG% 44.6%, total rebounding % 4.6, assist % 29.7, turnover % 20.7, usage 22.9%
I apologize for being wrong. Season B and Season C are eerily similar, and it's sad anyone would bash Season C by comparing it favorably to Season A. Season A is that of "a caretaker" while Season C was a "lead role."
Apologies. I'll take my loss.
-
weak argument...I mean, weak. I believe I speak for the majority... ALL lives matter. You see color, apparently. I don’t. I expect the TEAM to do well. Like I said, your moniker speaks for itself. btw, please don’t reply. I’m not going to engage in nickel & dime BS as you like to do with others here.
Ahh yes. "All lives matter" and "I don't see color." Good God.
I have no problem exposing you for what you are. If you don't like it that's up to you. I'm not going to bail you out and let you spew your racist talking points and then just not respond because you don't want to debate. Don't want to debate? Don't. It's pretty simple.
-
Duane played every single one of TAMU’s first 22 games. He then partially tore his ACL and did not play another game. Can you “come back” when you never left or missed time?
Literally everything there is untrue. Proof you don't know what you're talking about.
Right. To you, calling Diener “dime a dozen” (aka just a guy) is just as bad as calling Duane “just a guy.” You’re claiming they’re the same caliber. If you weren’t, calling Duane “just a guy” wouldn’t be close to “as honest” as calling Diener “dime a dozen.”
Diener was not dime-a-dozen. Duane was not just a guy. Both are absolutely untrue.
For someone who is clearly very upset at the lack of analytics MU uses, you sure seem to ignore the analytics when they disagree with your agenda. Duane was absolutely just a guy. He was never anything more.
I've provided receipts. You've provided at best ignorance, at worst lies and either way blatant misunderstandings of the numbers. You're so deep in the L you may as well be getting your information from OANN.
-
Literally everything there is untrue. Proof you don't know what you're talking about.
Diener was not dime-a-dozen. Duane was not just a guy. Both are absolutely untrue.
I've provided receipts. You've provided at best ignorance, at worst lies and either way blatant misunderstandings of the numbers. You're so deep in the L you may as well be getting your information from OANN.
See above. You cry for advanced stats. Then you champion a guy whose advanced stats are, well, that of just a guy. But you watched TAMU games. So throw the advanced stats out.
-
Yes. If you think Duane is less than Travis Diener you’re trying to rip him. Lol. Who’s moving the goalposts? He was average. You can try to explain it away as intangibles, injury, whatever. He was not Travis Diener. He did not have a “lead role.” He was a role player.
I have to give you credit. I’ve never seen someone be so blissfully ignorant while being proven wrong time and time again. Congrats
-
I have to give you credit. I’ve never seen someone be so blissfully ignorant while being proven wrong time and time again. Congrats
See above. Or just say “you’re wrong” because you have nothing to show Duane was anything more than an average high major player.
-
See above. Or just say “you’re wrong” because you have nothing to show Duane was anything more than an average high major player.
I watched tamu games with and without him that season. A&M was significantly better with him on the floor. Many others here have supported my opinion while you try and disprove that with statements you believe to be true, but are actually patently false.
-
I've provided receipts. You've provided at best ignorance, at worst lies and either way blatant misunderstandings of the numbers. You're so deep in the L you may as well be getting your information from OANN.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/47/7e/81/477e81d74638d904f01cb54d8ea0f4a5.gif)
-
I watched tamu games with and without him that season. A&M was significantly better with him on the floor. Many others here have supported my opinion while you try and disprove that with statements you believe to be true, but are actually false.
See above. Do we want advanced stats in our program? Seems like when it makes Wojo look worse, we want the advanced stats. When it makes Wojo look better, we want the eye test.
-
See above. Do we want advanced stats in our program? Seems like when it makes Wojo look worse, we want the advanced stats. When it makes Wojo look better, we want the eye test.
Once again. He was the engine of the team. They played better with him than without him. No question about it as I watched them with and without.
5-8 without him
17-5 with him
You couldn’t even count how many games he played and you’re trying to convince me to look at stats?
-
See above. You cry for advanced stats. Then you champion a guy whose advanced stats are, well, that of just a guy. But you watched TAMU games. So throw the advanced stats out.
When he was healthy, he was a really good player. When he got hurt, his advanced stats were dragged down, which is why the fair comparison are his pre-injury numbers.
I really don't get why you are so hellbent on attacking Duane. This is a really bizarre hill to die on, especially when you have such a poor grasp of the facts. You try to discredit him with rankings, never mind that TAMU was a top-10 team when he was healthy. You try to use counting stats, ignoring that he was going for 12.1/4.5 when he got hurt. You try to discredit his metrics, but his ORtg cratered after the injury, so you aren't accounting for what he was doing when healthy. And you can't even count the games he played in accurately.
He was a starting point guard and important player averaging 27.1 mpg, 12.1 ppg, 4.5 apg with an ORtg of 107 for a top-10 team when he got hurt. He was a major piece of what they were doing. Very important player, whatever. He wasn't just-a-guy (Dexter Akanno is "just a guy").
He was a good player who could've contributed but transferred. It happens. Not the first, not the last. It happens to every coach for various reasons. Nothing to be ashamed of. So why you feel the need to crap all over a guy who gave his all at Marquette, who still works out with the Marquette TBT team every summer and cheers for them even when he doesn't make it, that just doesn't make sense to me.
-
See above. Do we want advanced stats in our program? Seems like when it makes Wojo look worse, we want the advanced stats. When it makes Wojo look better, we want the eye test.
Well to be quite frank, Wojo teams fail the eye test and the advanced stats test. So it doesn’t really matter what standard you hold him to.
Keep going tho, Wades. I’m enjoying this.
-
When he was healthy, he was a really good player. When he got hurt, his advanced stats were dragged down, which is why the fair comparison are his pre-injury numbers.
I really don't get why you are so hellbent on attacking Duane. This is a really bizarre hill to die on, especially when you have such a poor grasp of the facts. You try to discredit him with rankings, never mind that TAMU was a top-10 team when he was healthy. You try to use counting stats, ignoring that he was going for 12.1/4.5 when he got hurt. You try to discredit his metrics, but his ORtg cratered after the injury, so you aren't accounting for what he was doing when healthy. And you can't even count the games he played in accurately.
He was a starting point guard and important player averaging 27.1 mpg, 12.1 ppg, 4.5 apg with an ORtg of 107 for a top-10 team when he got hurt. He was a major piece of what they were doing. Very important player, whatever. He wasn't just-a-guy (Dexter Akanno is "just a guy").
He was a good player who could've contributed but transferred. It happens. Not the first, not the last. It happens to every coach for various reasons. Nothing to be ashamed of. So why you feel the need to crap all over a guy who gave his all at Marquette, who still works out with the Marquette TBT team every summer and cheers for them even when he doesn't make it, that just doesn't make sense to me.
Crap all over a guy? Lol. So if I’m crapping all over a guy because I say he’s average and comparable to Junior Cadougan because, well, the numbers are damn near identical (and no, not the counting stats, the advanced stats you cry about MU not using), then what does that say about your feelings on Junior? Why are you crapping all over Junior Cadougan? Why would comparing someone to Junior be such a terrible thing? Did Junior not give everything he had to Marquette?
-
Crap all over a guy? Lol. So if I’m crapping all over a guy because I say he’s average and comparable to Junior Cadougan because, well, the numbers are damn near identical (and no, not the counting stats, the advanced stats you cry about MU not using), then what does that say about your feelings on Junior? Why are you crapping all over Junior Cadougan? Why would comparing someone to Junior be such a terrible thing? Did Junior not give everything he had to Marquette?
Would it be so outlandish to say Junior Cadougan played a lead role for MU? Senior starting PG, 4th on the team in scoring, 1st in assists, 2nd in minutes per game. He wasn’t Vander but he played a lead role and definitely wasn’t a JAG.
Just another guy means literally just another guy. Toss any old other guy in there and you get roughly the same results. That’s unfair to both Cadougan and Duane.
But go off.
-
Would it be so outlandish to say Junior Cadougan played a lead role for MU? Senior starting PG, 4th on the team in scoring, 1st in assists, 2nd in minutes per game. He wasn’t Vander but he played a lead role and definitely wasn’t a JAG.
Just another guy means literally just another guy. Toss any old other guy in there and you get roughly the same results. That’s unfair to both Cadougan and Duane.
But go off.
Right. They’re average high major college basketball players. How that’s bashing a kid is beyond me. Junior did not have a “lead role.” He was a role player. Again, how that’s bashing a kid I don’t know. But apparently it is nowadays.
-
Right. They’re average high major college basketball players. How that’s bashing a kid is beyond me. Junior did not have a “lead role.” He was a role player. Again, how that’s bashing a kid I don’t know. But apparently it is nowadays.
How in the world does your starting PG that plays the second most minutes on the team (behind your best player) not play a “lead role”. Now you’re just being stubborn. Well you’ve been being stubborn but now it’s getting a little embarrassing the way you are trying so hard to split this hair.
-
How in the world does your starting PG that plays the second most minutes on the team (behind your best player) not play a “lead role”. Now you’re just being stubborn. Well you’ve been being stubborn but now it’s getting a little embarrassing the way you are trying so hard to split this hair.
Okay. I guess any player in America that plays a lot of minutes is just a total stud and if you call anyone an average player or a role player you’re a disgusting human being who bashes kids giving their all to your school.
Seriously. Get over yourself. Duane was an average high major player. Junior is an average high major player. There’s nothing wrong with that. That still makes them the top 0.001% of people at what they do. But Wojo’s had a lot of average high major players. He needs to do better at either recruiting or developing studs.
But you better not say this team stinks or any of the players stink because damnit all they’re giving it their best and it’s disgusting anyone would say they’re anything but the most talented kids in all of basketball.
-
Okay. I guess any player in America that plays a lot of minutes is just a total stud and if you call anyone an average player or a role player you’re a disgusting human being who bashes kids giving their all to your school.
Seriously. Get over yourself. Duane was an average high major player. Junior is an average high major player. Wojo’s had a lot of average high major players. He needs to do better at either recruiting or developing studs.
But you better not say this team stinks or any of the players stink because damnit all they’re giving it their best and it’s disgusting anyone would say they’re anything but the most talented kids in all of basketball.
Who in the world said total stud? The entire game of semantics you chose to zero in on was the phraseology “lead role”. Now that your position has been proven illogical by like four different posters you’re going to go ahead and carry the goalposts over to “total stud”.
By the way you called him a JAG. “Just another guy” was your phraseology not mine or Brew or anyone else. Junior Cadougan was not just another guy on the 2013 team. Calling him that is spitting in the face of everything he did for MU which was a great career which, in one season, amounted to more team accolades and success than we’ve seen in 7 years combined from Wojo’s teams.
I know you’re going to go on and on and on because you are incapable of giving up or backing down. Knock yourself out. But, in my opinion, everything that needs to be said has been said.
-
Crap all over a guy? Lol. So if I’m crapping all over a guy because I say he’s average and comparable to Junior Cadougan because, well, the numbers are damn near identical (and no, not the counting stats, the advanced stats you cry about MU not using), then what does that say about your feelings on Junior? Why are you crapping all over Junior Cadougan? Why would comparing someone to Junior be such a terrible thing? Did Junior not give everything he had to Marquette?
You got the counting stats and the advanced stats wrong, so your position isn't defensible on either.
The initial question was "How many really good players have left the program over his tenure only to play a lead role on a team ranked much better than ours?" and you asserted that was inaccurate.
Duane was averaging 12.1/4.5 in 27.1 mpg on 107 ORtg. Those numbers are really good. Not All-American, not All-SEC, but any program will take that from a starter.
He played a lead role because of the minutes he contributed, the raw numbers he produced, and the impact he had on the team. The numbers support that, and everyone that watched that team is reinforcing what the numbers already tell us.
And his team was ranked 5th in the country both in kenpom and the AP Poll, which are higher than any Marquette rankings in the past 15+ years.
So Duane matches every point mentioned in the question. And while I didn't bring him up, Junior Cadougan does not equal Duane in any of those points. Junior never averaged double-digits, never averaged over 100 ORtg, and was never on a top-5 team. So that comparison is out the window.
-
Like I said. Ignore the numbers and hang the dude’s jersey in the Fiserv. He was literally never anything more than an average (just a guy) high major player. Sorry if that’s “spitting in the face of a player.”
-
In fightin' amongst da woke...priceless.
Science is real
Women's rights are human rights
No human is illegal
Love is love
BLM
Kindness is everything
Hate has no home here, aina?
#hypocrites
-
In fightin' amongst da woke...priceless.
Science is real
Women's rights are human rights
No human is illegal
Love is love
BLM
Kindness is everything
Hate has no home here, aina?
#hypocrites
Poking the bear with a stick early this morning I see. Well done.
-
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Oh, Lord, kumbaya (oh, Lord, kumbaya)…,hey?
-
weak argument...I mean, weak. I believe I speak for the majority... ALL lives matter. You see color, apparently. I don’t. I expect the TEAM to do well. Like I said, your moniker speaks for itself. btw, please don’t reply. I’m not going to engage in nickel & dime BS as you like to do with others here.
You see color. Everyone sees color.
-
You see color. Everyone sees color.
His comment was the dumbest argument against BLM.
Why are we giving the vaccine to old people first??? ALL ages matter!
-
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Oh, Lord, kumbaya (oh, Lord, kumbaya)…,hey?
Best president in our lifetimes aina?
-
I've been saying this since the day Sam and Joey transferred out, check the receipts.
This program is going nowhere until a change is made.
-
I'd rather lose big time with a revolving door of coaches than wait another decade to see what Wojo's ceiling is.
-
I really dislike the "you have to know what you are replacing him with" argument. What total bs. That mentality leaves the Packers with Mike McCarthy instead of the unknown dude who called plays for one season. Every change is a risk, but sometimes--when what you have isn't working--you take that risk. Could we continue to wait? Sure. I can't tell you why K or Wright weren't fired earlier. Obviously their schools saw something they liked. I see things with Wojo I like. The things I see with Wojo I don't like, and now am convinced just are not going to change, I think justify taking a risk and moving on. I can see both sides, so respect those that disagree.
-
Throw the bag at John Belien, he's sitting out there and would be a perfect fit for Marquette.
-
Throw the bag at John Belien, he's sitting out there and would be a perfect fit for Marquette.
He made $4M with the Cavs and was close to that with Michigan. My guess is that there will be a bidding war for him as well so he very well make more than that.
Wojo makes just over $2M at a school that is in financial distress.
-
I don't know if Duane was a lead guy, just another guy or just another lead guy. What I do know is that he had no business trying to play through that last injury. Im sure he wanted to play but coach needed to sit him. The eventual season ending injury was an inevitable end.
-
In fightin' amongst da woke...priceless.
Imagine, people who can agree on some things can disagree about other things. We don't actually have to conform to what a central party thinks. You should try it some time
-
No sense of urgency.....
I do not know what the answer is......
But teams know they can push us around and impose their will......
And we just take it......
Very frustrating......
I want to see someone laid out on another team.....
-
NM posted in the wrong thread