Back to Apathy?

[jesmu84]

i don't necessarily disagree. However, even with a bare cupboard, it doesn't take this long to achieve what...a single ncaa tourney win? Considering MU has solid facilities, has a bigly recruiting budget and pays the coach quite well, MU just has to be better.  For ex., how the heck does a program such as Creighton rise above MU? Creighton? Omaha? Missouri Valley...or from wherever, Creighton? Point is, Wojo is what he is. Program is what it will be under him. Not sure of a replacement (maybe Stan Johnson rocks it at LMU...currently 5-3...and is a possibility in another year or two), but Wojo has run his course here. Gotta strive for better than this cold gravy that's become MU basketball.

Oh God. Please not this again

[brewcity77]

Oh God. Please not this again

Agreed. If Wojo can't get it done, why put our faith in any of the guys that helped him not get it done? If Stan (or Dwayne, or Justin, or Jake) couldn't improve things as an assistant, why promote them?

[panda]

Agreed. If Wojo can't get it done, why put our faith in any of the guys that helped him not get it done? If Stan (or Dwayne, or Justin, or Jake) couldn't improve things as an assistant, why promote them?

Yep great idea. Everyone complains about a guy with zero head coaching experience being clueless, so let's hire one of his assistants with zero/next to zero head coaching experience and expect different results!

Brian Wardle or bust. If bust TJ Otzelberger.

[vogue65]

i don't necessarily disagree. However, even with a bare cupboard, it doesn't take this long to achieve what...a single ncaa tourney win? Considering MU has solid facilities, has a bigly recruiting budget and pays the coach quite well, MU just has to be better.  For ex., how the heck does a program such as Creighton rise above MU? Creighton? Omaha? Missouri Valley...or from wherever, Creighton? Point is, Wojo is what he is. Program is what it will be under him. Not sure of a replacement (maybe Stan Johnson rocks it at LMU...currently 5-3...and is a possibility in another year or two), but Wojo has run his course here. Gotta strive for better than this cold gravy that's become MU basketball.

My premise, we don't yet have a program.
Big $$$, fancy arena, great facilities, super town, great education ( if you're interested ), t.v. exposure, yada, yada, yada.
WOJO had two false starts( one and done, who knew?).
He should have known, please.
Then we have the sidetrack of a shooting phenomenon.  What do you do, give into mutiny or worse, extortion?
You go to war with the army you have, ha.

[vogue65]

it was the coach. Player did what coach allowed. Those two other players? Back page news.

It had nothing to do with it, it was a side show.
The univetsity wanted a new image.  It was marketing, not basketball.
There were plenty of Buzz 2 guys out there.

[Silent Verbal]

My premise, we don't yet have a program.
Big $$$, fancy arena, great facilities, super town, great education ( if you're interested ), t.v. exposure, yada, yada, yada.
WOJO had two false starts( one and done, who knew?).
He should have known, please.
Then we have the sidetrack of a shooting phenomenon.  What do you do, give into mutiny or worse, extortion?
You go to war with the army you have, ha.

So in year 7, we don't yet have a program under our current coach.  I can't think of a bigger indictment on the guy running the team than the one you just gave.

Let's examine all of his false starts.  In his first year, a year that was going to suck no matter what, he brought in Matt Carlino to take about half our shots.  He essentially ran off Deonte Burton, a really good basketball player who would go on to play in the NBA.  Yes, Burton said he transferred because of his mother's death, but would he have left if he was getting the starter's minutes he should have had?  Remember, he was *very* close with Duane and JJJ.  So that's false start #1.  Bringing in a chucker and alienating the best player on the team.

In year two, he made a deal with the Ellenson family.  Henry would go to MU, but only if they gave Wally three years of scholarship.  Henry did whatever he wanted for a year, the team sucked, Henry went pro, and Wojo cut Wally.  The optics of that weren't great.  In fact, I believe they had to give Wally a full track scholarship (something Marquette never does, if I'm not mistaken) just to shut Mrs. Ellenson up.  So a couple of hard working kids on the track team got their scholarships pulled because Wojo screwed up.  And then I think Wally dropped out of school anyways.  That was false start #2, a complete mess.

So going into year three, instead of having built something in his first two years, Wojo was essentially starting from scratch.  The team made the tournament in year 3, but got blown out in the first round.  Wojo then stepped on his Johnson in year 4 and we missed the tournament.  Year 5, which was Wojo's best team, ended in complete collapse when he lost the locker room, and then the Hausers transferred, which is one of the worst and most embarrassing things to ever happen to the Marquette program.  And then we collapsed again in year 6.

So let's recap it year by year:

Year 1:  Brings in a chucker for no reason and loses the best player on the team to transfer.
Year 2:  Ellenson fiasco.
Year 3:  Made the tournament, but lost in the first round.  Not bad.
Year 4:  Steps on his Johnson and we miss the tournament.
Year 5:  Complete collapse to end the season, Hausers transfer.
Year 6:  Complete collapse to end the season.

All of this, to me, points to a coach who's completely in over his head and has been since day one.

[NoLongerWarrior]

Nailed it. Just absolutely nailed it.

So in year 7, we don't yet have a program under our current coach.  I can't think of a bigger indictment on the guy running the team than the one you just gave.

Let's examine all of his false starts.  In his first year, a year that was going to suck no matter what, he brought in Matt Carlino to take about half our shots.  He essentially ran off Deonte Burton, a really good basketball player who would go on to play in the NBA.  Yes, Burton said he transferred because of his mother's death, but would he have left if he was getting the starter's minutes he should have had?  Remember, he was *very* close with Duane and JJJ.  So that's false start #1.  Bringing in a chucker and alienating the best player on the team.

In year two, he made a deal with the Ellenson family.  Henry would go to MU, but only if they gave Wally three years of scholarship.  Henry did whatever he wanted for a year, the team sucked, Henry went pro, and Wojo cut Wally.  The optics of that weren't great.  In fact, I believe they had to give Wally a full track scholarship (something Marquette never does, if I'm not mistaken) just to shut Mrs. Ellenson up.  So a couple of hard working kids on the track team got their scholarships pulled because Wojo screwed up.  And then I think Wally dropped out of school anyways.  That was false start #2, a complete mess.

So going into year three, instead of having built something in his first two years, Wojo was essentially starting from scratch.  The team made the tournament in year 3, but got blown out in the first round.  Wojo then stepped on his Johnson in year 4 and we missed the tournament.  Year 5, which was Wojo's best team, ended in complete collapse when he lost the locker room, and then the Hausers transferred, which is one of the worst and most embarrassing things to ever happen to the Marquette program.  And then we collapsed again in year 6.

So let's recap it year by year:

Year 1:  Brings in a chucker for no reason and loses the best player on the team to transfer.
Year 2:  Ellenson fiasco.
Year 3:  Made the tournament, but lost in the first round.  Not bad.
Year 4:  Steps on his Johnson and we miss the tournament.
Year 5:  Complete collapse to end the season, Hausers transfer.
Year 6:  Complete collapse to end the season.

All of this, to me, points to a coach who's completely in over his head and has been since day one.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Year 1:  Brings in a chucker for no reason a guy with 24% usage who shot a very respectful 53.3% eFG%, in no way, shape, or form a chucker and loses the best player on the team to transfer after the death of his mother and a battle with depression, his repeatedly stated reasons for transfer.
Year 2:  Ellenson fiasco.
Year 3:  Made the tournament, but lost in the first round.  Not bad.
Year 4:  Steps on his Johnson and After graduating the core of his team that was inherited from Buzz, we barely miss the tournament an improvement from the last down year.
Year 5:  Despite a Complete collapse to end the season, earns a 5 seed in the NCAA, tied for the second highest seed MU has earned in the past 40 years. Hausers transfer.
Year 6:  Complete collapse to end the season, his first legitimately bad season.

All of this, to me, points to a coach who's completely in over his head and has been since day one.

FIFY

[tower912]

That still would have, by any metric, would have made the tourney if there had been one.

[GOO]

FIFY

TAMU with some facts.

[Markusquette]

Whether you're a "projo" or a "nojo" it's easy to spin the story in your favor. Wojo's made a lot of mistakes. He's also had some good and great teams that fell short. He also didn't get a chance for his first tournament win last year. I'm not really a fan of him as a coach, but to throw him under the bus for every decision that didn't go in MUBB's favor is extreme.

Buzz made some bigger mistakes that really displayed the program in a negative way, but did his success make it acceptable?

[tower912]

You make an interesting point.    Buzz had a lot of 'team bubble watch' clubs.    Looking back at the talent that had Butler, Crowder, Buycks, Jamil Wilson, DJO, Lazar, an ardent Buzz hater, lets call him 'Willie' for the sake of argument, could make a case that Buzz's teams underachieved their talent during the regular seasons and Big East tourneys, but were able to redeem themselves by winning games in the Big Dance.     While having players making negative headlines and while getting hit with (minor) NCAA violations. 

[panda]

You make an interesting point.    Buzz had a lot of 'team bubble watch' clubs.    Looking back at the talent that had Butler, Crowder, Buycks, Jamil Wilson, DJO, Lazar, an ardent Buzz hater, lets call him 'Willie' for the sake of argument, could make a case that Buzz's teams underachieved their talent during the regular seasons and Big East tourneys, but were able to redeem themselves by winning games in the Big Dance.     While having players making negative headlines and while getting hit with (minor) NCAA violations.

So in Buzz's down years, he won games in the tournament and then he redeemed himself with other seasons which he had a ton of success in the regular season (as well as post season).

There is going to be down seasons at any program. It's what you do to redeem yourself after the down seasons which really define you.

[tower912]

My point is that every coach MU has had since the internet has become ubiquitous has had message board denizens calling for his head.

Just like all coaches everywhere.  It was posted that Wojo is an average coach.   Scoopers are average fans.

[Viper]

So in year 7, we don't yet have a program under our current coach.  I can't think of a bigger indictment on the guy running the team than the one you just gave.

Let's examine all of his false starts.  In his first year, a year that was going to suck no matter what, he brought in Matt Carlino to take about half our shots.  He essentially ran off Deonte Burton, a really good basketball player who would go on to play in the NBA.  Yes, Burton said he transferred because of his mother's death, but would he have left if he was getting the starter's minutes he should have had?  Remember, he was *very* close with Duane and JJJ.  So that's false start #1.  Bringing in a chucker and alienating the best player on the team.

In year two, he made a deal with the Ellenson family.  Henry would go to MU, but only if they gave Wally three years of scholarship.  Henry did whatever he wanted for a year, the team sucked, Henry went pro, and Wojo cut Wally.  The optics of that weren't great.  In fact, I believe they had to give Wally a full track scholarship (something Marquette never does, if I'm not mistaken) just to shut Mrs. Ellenson up.  So a couple of hard working kids on the track team got their scholarships pulled because Wojo screwed up.  And then I think Wally dropped out of school anyways.  That was false start #2, a complete mess.

So going into year three, instead of having built something in his first two years, Wojo was essentially starting from scratch.  The team made the tournament in year 3, but got blown out in the first round.  Wojo then stepped on his Johnson in year 4 and we missed the tournament.  Year 5, which was Wojo's best team, ended in complete collapse when he lost the locker room, and then the Hausers transferred, which is one of the worst and most embarrassing things to ever happen to the Marquette program.  And then we collapsed again in year 6.

So let's recap it year by year:

Year 1:  Brings in a chucker for no reason and loses the best player on the team to transfer.
Year 2:  Ellenson fiasco.
Year 3:  Made the tournament, but lost in the first round.  Not bad.
Year 4:  Steps on his Johnson and we miss the tournament.
Year 5:  Complete collapse to end the season, Hausers transfer.
Year 6:  Complete collapse to end the season.

All of this, to me, points to a coach who's completely in over his head and has been since day one.

+1000👍

[jesmu84]

If Wojo has slipped in 2 sweet 16 appearances in his time here - and literally everything else being exactly the same - would that really change how anyone felt about the state of the program under Wojo?

I know for me it would not. Consistent upper end league finishes and consistent high NCAA seeds over multiple years indicate a successful program. Then throw in kids graduating and staying out of trouble.

Regardless of tourney success, wojo hasn't done enough for me to this point. I was projo for a while. Now I'm apathetic about the long term chances for the program and surmise that if things continue as is, he should be gone after next season unless he cranks out significant success over the next 1.5 seasons (and recruiting success doesn't qualify here).

[5DollarPitcher]

If Wojo has slipped in 2 sweet 16 appearances in his time here - and literally everything else being exactly the same - would that really change how anyone felt about the state of the program under Wojo?

I know for me it would not. Consistent upper end league finishes and consistent high NCAA seeds over multiple years indicate a successful program. Then throw in kids graduating and staying out of trouble.

Regardless of tourney success, wojo hasn't done enough for me to this point. I was projo for a while. Now I'm apathetic about the long term chances for the program and surmise that if things continue as is, he should be gone after next season unless he cranks out significant success over the next 1.5 seasons (and recruiting success doesn't qualify here).

This may qualify for worst take on Scoop.

[Silent Verbal]

If Wojo has slipped in 2 sweet 16 appearances in his time here - and literally everything else being exactly the same - would that really change how anyone felt about the state of the program under Wojo?

Is this for real?  Of course it would. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If Wojo has slipped in 2 sweet 16 appearances in his time here - and literally everything else being exactly the same - would that really change how anyone felt about the state of the program under Wojo?

I know for me it would not. Consistent upper end league finishes and consistent high NCAA seeds over multiple years indicate a successful program. Then throw in kids graduating and staying out of trouble.

Regardless of tourney success, wojo hasn't done enough for me to this point. I was projo for a while. Now I'm apathetic about the long term chances for the program and surmise that if things continue as is, he should be gone after next season unless he cranks out significant success over the next 1.5 seasons (and recruiting success doesn't qualify here).

Is this for real?  Of course it would. 

For me, it wouldn't. Sure, I'd rather make the Sweet 16 than not make the Sweet 16 but just because Wojo got hot and won two games in March wouldn't change my perception of him as a coach. For me, winning consistently over the course of an entire season (including the postseason) is a better measure of the coach than winning a game or two in the tournament.

Round of 32s, Sweet Sixteens, and Elite Eights don't really do much for me. Sure they are fun as hell but the second that final buzzer sounds and you've fallen short of the Final Four, no one outside of your program cares and few even remember that you were there. Final Fours and National Championships. Those are what move a program forward and get them respect.

[jesmu84]

For me, it wouldn't. Sure, I'd rather make the Sweet 16 than not make the Sweet 16 but just because Wojo got hot and won two games in March wouldn't change my perception of him as a coach. For me, winning consistently over the course of an entire season (including the postseason) is a better measure of the coach than winning a game or two in the tournament.

Round of 32s, Sweet Sixteens, and Elite Eights don't really do much for me. Sure they are fun as hell but the second that final buzzer sounds and you've fallen short of the Final Four, no one outside of your program cares and few even remember that you were there. Final Fours and National Championships. Those are what move a program forward and get them respect.

This. Exactly.

Or, in this hypothetical, maybe it wasn't even Wojo. One of our guys dropped 40. Or the opposition lost their starting PG. Etc etc. 2 fluky sweet 16s doesn't change Wojo as a coach or what this program looks like under his stewardship.

I don't envision posts this season being much different with 2 sweet 16s in earlier years if all else is the exact same.

[Johnny B]

FIFY

Come on.. i mean im on the fence with wojo, but the apologetics are pretty tiresome at this point. idk if ur a big wojo guy but its been pretty mediocre under wojo. If this season is a train wreck, its time for this guy to go. just feels like defending wojo too much. There isn't a lot to defend unless u set the bar pretty low.

[5DollarPitcher]

TAMU and jesmu convincing themselves that hypothetical tournament success doesn't actually count as success so where we are now is no different than where we'd be with tournament runs from Wojo.

Truly mind-blowing mental gymnastics.

[Silent Verbal]

For me, it wouldn't. Sure, I'd rather make the Sweet 16 than not make the Sweet 16 but just because Wojo got hot and won two games in March wouldn't change my perception of him as a coach. For me, winning consistently over the course of an entire season (including the postseason) is a better measure of the coach than winning a game or two in the tournament.

Round of 32s, Sweet Sixteens, and Elite Eights don't really do much for me. Sure they are fun as hell but the second that final buzzer sounds and you've fallen short of the Final Four, no one outside of your program cares and few even remember that you were there. Final Fours and National Championships. Those are what move a program forward and get them respect.

If Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights don't do much for you, I can understand why defending Wojo is the hill you've chosen to slurp on.  The Tournament is where college coaches make their bones.  Crean's *still* living off that Final Four from almost twenty years ago.  Buzz will be a head coach at a high major for the rest of his career, however long he wants, because of the run he made at Marquette.  And he never even made the Final Four.  You might turn your nose up at an Elite Eight, but most Athletic Directors obviously don't feel the same way.

Sports, for a huge percentage of fans, are all about the postseason.  Do you really think Packers fans will be happy if they finish 13-3 and lose their first playoff game?  Hell no.  All that regular season success will be for nothing.  Stinks for the team, but that's just the way it is.  I guarantee you that all the Nojo-ers would shut up real quick if Wojo made the Sweet Sixteen this year.  The thing is, he's a bad coach, so him winning two consecutive games against two good teams seems pretty unlikely.  If the talent of the opposing team doesn't beat us, their coach will.

And not all Sweet Sixteen runs are the result of a team "just getting hot" for a couple games.  Sometimes teams win because talent, grit, and coaching come together at the right time. 

[HutchwasClutch]

If Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights don't do much for you, I can understand why defending Wojo is the hill you've chosen to slurp on.  The Tournament is where college coaches make their bones.  Crean's *still* living off that Final Four from almost twenty years ago.  Buzz will be a head coach at a high major for the rest of his career, however long he wants, because of the run he made at Marquette.  And he never even made the Final Four.  You might turn your nose up at an Elite Eight, but most Athletic Directors obviously don't feel the same way.

Sports, for a huge percentage of fans, are all about the postseason.  Do you really think Packers fans will be happy if they finish 13-3 and lose their first playoff game?  Hell no.  All that regular season success will be for nothing.  Stinks for the team, but that's just the way it is.  I guarantee you that all the Nojo-ers would shut up real quick if Wojo made the Sweet Sixteen this year.  The thing is, he's a bad coach, so him winning two consecutive games against two good teams seems pretty unlikely.  If the talent of the opposing team doesn't beat us, their coach will.

And not all Sweet Sixteen runs are the result of a team "just getting hot" for a couple games.  Sometimes teams win because talent, grit, and coaching come together at the right time.

The commentary has become asinine trying to prop up this loser we're stuck with for now. 

[Lennys Tap]

For me, it wouldn't. Sure, I'd rather make the Sweet 16 than not make the Sweet 16 but just because Wojo got hot and won two games in March wouldn't change my perception of him as a coach. For me, winning consistently over the course of an entire season (including the postseason) is a better measure of the coach than winning a game or two in the tournament.

Round of 32s, Sweet Sixteens, and Elite Eights don't really do much for me. Sure they are fun as hell but the second that final buzzer sounds and you've fallen short of the Final Four, no one outside of your program cares and few even remember that you were there. Final Fours and National Championships. Those are what move a program forward and get them respect.

Disagree completely. The only regular season win that could equal a win in the NCAA tournament is one that clinches a conference championship. Wins, in order of importance for me are as follows:

1.National Championship
2.National Semi Final
3.Elite 8 NCAA
4.Big East Tournament Championship
5.Sweet 16 NCAA
6.Round of 32 NCAA
7.First Round NCAA
8.Big East Tournament Semi Final
9.Big East Conference Games
10.Big East Quarters/First Round
11.Wisconsin
12.Pre Conference Tournaments
13.Pre Conference regular season games.

If you have a game to clinch a regular season Big East title I'd put that in between 3 and 4.

You say nobody remembers Elite8s and Sweet 16s. What nobody remembers (short of a conference title) is the regular season. It's an audition for the tournament, and the better the audition the better your seed - but it's what you do with it that matters. Question: When (as an 11 seed) we beat 6 seed Xavier (and later 3 seed Syracuse), who had the better year, got the most respect - Us or Xavier? I say us and it's not close. They don't call it the Big Dance for nothing.