Man, are we a sad fanbase full of entitled crybabies. I don't think I've ever seen Heisenberg ever be so absolutely goddamn RIGHT before. And this isn't just for the occasional, drive-by posters that only show up after losses, this includes the long-time posters and regulars that lose their minds whenever we lose.
First, the people who say they are "sick of the losing". FFS, get a damn grip. A program like Villanova's isn't built overnight. It took Jay Wright 4 years to get to the tournament and 13 to build the dynasty we see today. So we've missed the tourney for 3 straight...boo freaking hoo. The 2014 team was dead in the water without Vander, 2015 was the worst roster we've had since the Piano Man, and it's been nothing but progress since. Last year we won 20 games, and yes there were cupcakes, but 12 were against high majors including 4 wins over tournament teams. This year we are clearly better than last year. So what the hell are we complaining about?
We got stomped at Villanova. Realize they are 44-1 in their last 45 home games, and that 1 took overtime to beat them. They haven't lost at home in regulation in nearly 3 years. It's still just one loss, and a game we were supposed to lose. Did anyone really expect we were going to win yesterday? When we look at Villanova, we are looking at the team we hope to become. It took them the better part of two decades to become what they are now, and somehow this entitled, crybaby fanbase thinks Wojo should be able to do it in what, 2-1/2 years? Good god, get a freaking grip and come back to reality.
I'm also sick of tossing our seniors under the bus repeatedly. So Luke didn't get any defensive boards. As a team we didn't get any defensive boards because THEY DIDN'T MISS. You don't get a rebound when the only sound you are hearing is a soft "swish". And lord, is there any more of a whipping boy than JJ? I can't remember someone getting beat up by his own fanbase this badly since Vander Blue. When we win, JJ is the man, everyone loves him, when we lose, JJ sucks and has no heart. Shut up. JJ leads the team in assist rate, steal percentage, defensive rebounding percentage, and scoring. He pretty much does everything for us. Yet he's the first one we throw under the bus when things go wrong.
The defense posts are a bit tired too. The defense was fine against Georgetown and Seton Hall. The defense has definitely improved as the season went on. Further, I'm seeing posts that say Haanif, Sam, and Howard are fine on defense. This is a process. This will take time. And if our best defenders are our underclassmen, how about not giving up on them before they are halfway through their eligibility? The offense is light years ahead of where it was two years ago, and I'll take this year's defense over either of the past two years (including the zone in 2015 that masked our deficiencies).
And finally, the comparisons to Buzz. Good grief. For anyone who doesn't realize it, Buzz was ran out of here for a reason. We can deny all we want, but Buzz's whole thing about "character revealed" was the most accurate thing he ever talked about, and quite a few of the kids he recruited didn't have the character we expect. All the crap with Mayo, all the crap with the sexual assault, all the stuff we liked to write off as "wrong place, wrong time", well that happened because we had a coach that brought those kinds of players in, that tried to sweep things under the rug, and whose own character was as flawed as anything, as shown by him running out the door as soon as he didn't get everything his way. It doesn't matter if he's killing it at Va Tech or if it's a basement fire, the simple reality is that the powers that be weren't willing to go with the win at all costs angle. They want kids that were going to graduate, kids that were going to be written about in the sports pages, not the news pages, and a program that we can be proud of on and off the court.
That means going through a process that takes time. Buzz is great at the quick rebuild. Wojo's focus is on the long haul. Guys like Carlino, Ellenson, and Reinhardt have helped mask deficiencies, but this program is now about the four year kids like Cheatham, Heldt, Hauser, Howard, John, and Cain that will make their impact felt as they age. So let's freaking let them age and accept that while we aren't there yet, progress is unquestionably being made, we have been better every single season under Wojo, and building a program that is self-sustaining doesn't happen in a couple months or a couple seasons, but rather over 5 years, 10 years, and more than that.
We're a bunch of entitled babies. And it's not the young posters, it's not the millennials, it's the crotchety old men, STHs, and long-time posters that are just as bad as anyone else.
(http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu257/markus69_bucket/Amen-Brother.jpg)
(https://media.tenor.co/images/c2445680d0f37853c0c88f20f5f963c8/raw)
Get tough Marquette.
I understand the frustration but the tendency for posters to blame our deficiencies on a single player is really comical and shows a lack of understanding of what happens during the game.
Other than the coach, it is rare there is a single person to blame for a loss.
Nice post.
I get mad about the defense, our shot selection at times and toughness
at times, but I think Brewcity77 straightened it out. Well Done.
Made some good, accurate points. I think we put forth a good effort but
moral victories don't count. Even Tom Izzo got cranky Saturday. Sat
his best player (Bridges) until he figured it out. Go Warriors.
The best thing is the administration is on the same side. No matter what happens this year and next, Wojo will have until he has a full roster of his guys. The good news? The roster in his fifth year could look like:
PG: Howard and someone not on the roster (please Wojo, Ramey)
SG: Cheatham/Bailey
SF: S. Hauser/Cain/Sacar
PF: J. Hauser (please Wojo)/John
C: Froling (please Wojo)/Heldt/Eke
Throw in one more guard and oooeee. 2019 Final Four here we come!
Great post. But I'm not holding my breath expecting the tone on this board to change.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 08, 2017, 10:54:57 AM
The best thing is the administration is on the same side. No matter what happens this year and next, Wojo will have until he has a full roster of his guys. The good news? The roster in his fifth year could look like:
PG: Howard and someone not on the roster (please Wojo, Ramey)
SG: Cheatham/Bailey
SF: S. Hauser/Cain/Sacar
PF: J. Hauser (please Wojo)/John
C: Froling (please Wojo)/Heldt/Eke
Take off your blinders, Final 4 no chance, NCAA bid, yes.
Throw in one more guard and oooeee. 2019 Final Four here we come!
Quote from: wadesworld on January 08, 2017, 10:54:57 AM
The best thing is the administration is on the same side. No matter what happens this year and next, Wojo will have until he has a full roster of his guys. The good news? The roster in his fifth year could look like:
PG: Howard and someone not on the roster (please Wojo, Ramey)
SG: Cheatham/Bailey
SF: S. Hauser/Cain/Sacar
PF: J. Hauser (please Wojo)/John
C: Froling (please Wojo)/Heldt/Eke
Throw in one more guard and oooeee. 2019 Final Four here we come!
It's admirable to set ones goals high, but to expect those goals to be met and then not achieved and complain about it is quite another thing.
Brew, you feel better now that you've told us all off for the 20th time?
Excellent stuff, brew. I woke up yesterday and decided to ski the fresh powder rather than watch us lose to Villanova. Not out of protest but simply because we all knew we were going to lose, and we knew there was hardly a chance we'd even make it close. Everyone penciled in a loss from the day schedule came out and for good reason. Nova is a freakin' powerhouse.
After I tucked into an evening Avery craft brew, checked Scoop and couldn't believe the negativity following a game we knew for sure we'd lose. I thought it went without saying that getting whipped by the #1 team in the country and defending national champions on the road says NOTHING about where this program is.
It's not really about losing to Villanova. I'm sure a majority expected it. It's frustrating seeing a coach in his third season fielding a seven-man roster (OK, eight; forgot about Heldt). It's also frustrating seeing the effort that was exhibited for that coach.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on January 08, 2017, 11:12:37 AM
Brew, you feel better now that you've told us all off for the 20th time?
+1. Even Wojo went postal, perhaps more than any post here (which gives me comfort btw).
This is a basketball forum. Some are sunshine pumpers, some voice frustration, some like stats, some like observations, some like history. Or not. Balance is good and respected. But if you don't like a POV different than your own, don't come here.
Are we supposed to wait two more years to discuss MU hoops? But only the good stuff?
Quote from: Babybluejeans on January 08, 2017, 11:19:16 AM
Excellent stuff, brew. I woke up yesterday and decided to ski the fresh powder rather than watch us lose to Villanova. Not out of protest but simply because we all knew we were going to lose, and we knew there was hardly a chance we'd even make it close. Everyone penciled in a loss from the day schedule came out and for good reason. Nova is a freakin' powerhouse.
After I tucked into an evening Avery craft brew, checked Scoop and couldn't believe the negativity following a game we knew for sure we'd lose. I thought it went without saying that getting whipped by the #1 team in the country and defending national champions on the road says NOTHING about where this program is.
Exactly. I often choose to do something else too. And as each mediocre season goes by, I get less and less invested. But it's never about one game we had a one in a hundred chance of winning.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 08, 2017, 11:34:40 AM
+1. Even Wojo went postal, perhaps more than any post here (which gives me comfort btw).
This is a basketball forum. Some are sunshine pumpers, some voice frustration, some like stats, some like observations, some like history. Or not. Balance is good and respected. But if you don't like a POV different than your own, don't come here.
Are we supposed to wait two more years to discuss MU hoops? But only the good stuff?
Watch it! You might get banned.
Quote from: Afroman on January 08, 2017, 11:25:09 AM
It's not really about losing to Villanova. I'm sure a majority expected it. It's frustrating seeing a coach in his third season fielding a seven-man roster (OK, eight; forgot about Heldt). It's also frustrating seeing the effort that was exhibited for that coach.
+1
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 08, 2017, 11:34:40 AM
+1. Even Wojo went postal, perhaps more than any post here (which gives me comfort btw).
This is a basketball forum. Some are sunshine pumpers, some voice frustration, some like stats, some like observations, some like history. Or not. Balance is good and respected. But if you don't like a POV different than your own, don't come here.
Are we supposed to wait two more years to discuss MU hoops? But only the good stuff?
+2
Quote from: jsglow on January 08, 2017, 11:39:45 AM
Exactly. I often choose to do something else too. And as each mediocre season goes by, I get less and less invested. But it's never about one game we had a one in a hundred chance of winning.
For someone who donates to MU much more generously than I do, that saddens me. As disappointing as the last few seasons have been I still cheer the team on. If kids are quitting because Wojo is bringing in the talent we're heading in the right direction and I don't expect too many more mediocre seasons.
well put, as always, Doc
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 08, 2017, 11:34:40 AM
+1. Even Wojo went postal, perhaps more than any post here (which gives me comfort btw).
This is a basketball forum. Some are sunshine pumpers, some voice frustration, some like stats, some like observations, some like history. Or not. Balance is good and respected. But if you don't like a POV different than your own, don't come here.
Are we supposed to wait two more years to discuss MU hoops? But only the good stuff?
If you think this is what brew is saying, you should probably read a little more carefully.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 08, 2017, 11:34:40 AM
+1. Even Wojo went postal, perhaps more than any post here (which gives me comfort btw).
This is a basketball forum. Some are sunshine pumpers, some voice frustration, some like stats, some like observations, some like history. Or not. Balance is good and respected. But if you don't like a POV different than your own, don't come here.
Are we supposed to wait two more years to discuss MU hoops? But only the good stuff?
I'm perfectly fine with constructive discussion. What pisses me off is the people who act like there are no positives and it's always all gloom and doom. Who somehow think that we should have a better product on the court without realizing we already do have a better product on the court. Is this team perfect? No. Definitely not. But this year is better than last year, and last year was better than the year before that. So what are people sick of? Progress? Improvement?
I hate the Chicken Little mindset that only sees the sky falling and only wants to weigh in on the negatives. I know those people are here and I will dispute their points. I will call them out on their bullsh!t just like plenty of others have called me out on mine in the past. If watching Marquette basketball is that agonizing, I'm genuinely curious why people bother. Though I suppose I should set this to automatically bump this on January 24, because after we've likely lost three in a row, everyone will lose their crap all over again.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on January 08, 2017, 11:53:19 AM
For someone who donates to MU much more generously than I do, that saddens me. As disappointing as the last few seasons have been I still cheer the team on. If kids are quitting because Wojo is bringing in the talent we're heading in the right direction and I don't expect too many more mediocre seasons.
Appreciate though that basketball in no way impacts our commitment to the university. It just means that hoops gets less 'mental attention' than when the team is good. I too hope that better times are in the future.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 08, 2017, 12:20:51 PM
I'm perfectly fine with constructive discussion. What pisses me off is the people who act like there are no positives and it's always all gloom and doom. Who somehow think that we should have a better product on the court without realizing we already do have a better product on the court. Is this team perfect? No. Definitely not. But this year is better than last year, and last year was better than the year before that. So what are people sick of? Progress? Improvement?
I hate the Chicken Little mindset that only sees the sky falling and only wants to weigh in on the negatives. I know those people are here and I will dispute their points. I will call them out on their bullsh!t just like plenty of others have called me out on mine in the past. If watching Marquette basketball is that agonizing, I'm genuinely curious why people bother. Though I suppose I should set this to automatically bump this on January 24, because after we've likely lost three in a row, everyone will lose their crap all over again.
The season isn't over yet so how can you say so definitively that progress has been made? That seems awfully subjective. If progress is determined by wins and losses vs quality opponents, we have played five potential tournament teams thus far. Michigan, Pitt, Wisconsin, Seton Hall and Villanova. We are 0-5 vs those teams. Michigan and Nova destroyed us. Seton Hall and Pitt could have been wins but weren't and Wisconsin was close for a half. I don't think anyone is big on moral victories so is 0-5 progress to you? There is a lot of season left so they can turn things around but as of right now, I'm struggling to see the progress you speak of.
Nice post, Brew. We are better than we were in Buzz's last season, when he quit on the team. The question is whether the progress can be maintained. Howard and Hauser are keepers, but next year's freshmen are going to have to play 25-30 minutes a night simply because we're not going to have the bodies to bang in the BE. Haanif is too good to struggle forever, so there's hope there. I think the key is the 2018 recruiting class. We need at least one 6'8 bruiser and a 6-4 guard to add to next year's class. Frustrating to look that far ahead, but until that time there are nights we are going to get shelled. As for the Fischer stats, when you are the tallest player on the floor and go back-to-back games without a defensive rebound, something is wrong. It would be one thing if he was being lured away from the basket and was able to stop someone 10 feet out, but that's not the case. He simply has to play harder, and he himself said so last night.
I totally agree that both the student body and the MUScoop fan base tend to demonstrate an attitude of entitlement. A lack of historical perspective is unpleasant to witness. Yes, look at the building and fall of UCLA or the building of Duke, or the early teams of Al McGuire, the long picture is a very interesting subject. We live in a world of instant gratification.
I think one of the problems is that we went from one extreme to the other over night. We are suffering from whiplash.
To have it the way you want it, you have to give up the way you have it. Not so easy for anyone, the old, the young or the millennials.
Anyone can be a fan of a front-runner, it takes character to stick with a team that is struggling. That is the opposite of entitlement.
ND sucks
Any surprises on who started the other thread?
Testify, Lieutenant.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 08, 2017, 10:24:05 AM
Man, are we a sad fanbase full of entitled crybabies. I don't think I've ever seen Heisenberg ever be so absolutely goddamn RIGHT before. And this isn't just for the occasional, drive-by posters that only show up after losses, this includes the long-time posters and regulars that lose their minds whenever we lose.
First, the people who say they are "sick of the losing". FFS, get a damn grip. A program like Villanova's isn't built overnight. It took Jay Wright 4 years to get to the tournament and 13 to build the dynasty we see today. So we've missed the tourney for 3 straight...boo freaking hoo. The 2014 team was dead in the water without Vander, 2015 was the worst roster we've had since the Piano Man, and it's been nothing but progress since. Last year we won 20 games, and yes there were cupcakes, but 12 were against high majors including 4 wins over tournament teams. This year we are clearly better than last year. So what the hell are we complaining about?
We got stomped at Villanova. Realize they are 44-1 in their last 45 home games, and that 1 took overtime to beat them. They haven't lost at home in regulation in nearly 3 years. It's still just one loss, and a game we were supposed to lose. Did anyone really expect we were going to win yesterday? When we look at Villanova, we are looking at the team we hope to become. It took them the better part of two decades to become what they are now, and somehow this entitled, crybaby fanbase thinks Wojo should be able to do it in what, 2-1/2 years? Good god, get a freaking grip and come back to reality.
I'm also sick of tossing our seniors under the bus repeatedly. So Luke didn't get any defensive boards. As a team we didn't get any defensive boards because THEY DIDN'T MISS. You don't get a rebound when the only sound you are hearing is a soft "swish". And lord, is there any more of a whipping boy than JJ? I can't remember someone getting beat up by his own fanbase this badly since Vander Blue. When we win, JJ is the man, everyone loves him, when we lose, JJ sucks and has no heart. Shut up. JJ leads the team in assist rate, steal percentage, defensive rebounding percentage, and scoring. He pretty much does everything for us. Yet he's the first one we throw under the bus when things go wrong.
The defense posts are a bit tired too. The defense was fine against Georgetown and Seton Hall. The defense has definitely improved as the season went on. Further, I'm seeing posts that say Haanif, Sam, and Howard are fine on defense. This is a process. This will take time. And if our best defenders are our underclassmen, how about not giving up on them before they are halfway through their eligibility? The offense is light years ahead of where it was two years ago, and I'll take this year's defense over either of the past two years (including the zone in 2015 that masked our deficiencies).
And finally, the comparisons to Buzz. Good grief. For anyone who doesn't realize it, Buzz was ran out of here for a reason. We can deny all we want, but Buzz's whole thing about "character revealed" was the most accurate thing he ever talked about, and quite a few of the kids he recruited didn't have the character we expect. All the crap with Mayo, all the crap with the sexual assault, all the stuff we liked to write off as "wrong place, wrong time", well that happened because we had a coach that brought those kinds of players in, that tried to sweep things under the rug, and whose own character was as flawed as anything, as shown by him running out the door as soon as he didn't get everything his way. It doesn't matter if he's killing it at Va Tech or if it's a basement fire, the simple reality is that the powers that be weren't willing to go with the win at all costs angle. They want kids that were going to graduate, kids that were going to be written about in the sports pages, not the news pages, and a program that we can be proud of on and off the court.
That means going through a process that takes time. Buzz is great at the quick rebuild. Wojo's focus is on the long haul. Guys like Carlino, Ellenson, and Reinhardt have helped mask deficiencies, but this program is now about the four year kids like Cheatham, Heldt, Hauser, Howard, John, and Cain that will make their impact felt as they age. So let's freaking let them age and accept that while we aren't there yet, progress is unquestionably being made, we have been better every single season under Wojo, and building a program that is self-sustaining doesn't happen in a couple months or a couple seasons, but rather over 5 years, 10 years, and more than that.
We're a bunch of entitled babies. And it's not the young posters, it's not the millennials, it's the crotchety old men, STHs, and long-time posters that are just as bad as anyone else.
++++++
Beautiful post!
Quoting so the F-Tard Whiners have to see it again
Brew - you make too much sense. It is not kind of you to innudate this board with rational thought. ;)
Good post.
N/P
Quote from: Oregon Warrior on January 08, 2017, 12:41:00 PM
The season isn't over yet so how can you say so definitively that progress has been made? That seems awfully subjective. If progress is determined by wins and losses vs quality opponents, we have played five potential tournament teams thus far. Michigan, Pitt, Wisconsin, Seton Hall and Villanova. We are 0-5 vs those teams. Michigan and Nova destroyed us. Seton Hall and Pitt could have been wins but weren't and Wisconsin was close for a half. I don't think anyone is big on moral victories so is 0-5 progress to you? There is a lot of season left so they can turn things around but as of right now, I'm struggling to see the progress you speak of.
Georgia also potential NCAA team whom we beat on the road. That counts as 2 wins. ;D so 2-5.
Well said brew!
Too bad we lost to Michigan early in the season and lost half the scoopers that cry if we don't go undefeated.
Oh well, they will be happier cheering for Kentucky.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on January 08, 2017, 11:19:16 AM
Excellent stuff, brew. I woke up yesterday and decided to ski the fresh powder rather than watch us lose to Villanova. Not out of protest but simply because we all knew we were going to lose, and we knew there was hardly a chance we'd even make it close. Everyone penciled in a loss from the day schedule came out and for good reason. Nova is a freakin' powerhouse.
After I tucked into an evening Avery craft brew, checked Scoop and couldn't believe the negativity following a game we knew for sure we'd lose. I thought it went without saying that getting whipped by the #1 team in the country and defending national champions on the road says NOTHING about where this program is.
(http://yeslk.com/images/OIP-M60f1df4707f6b65016af01e86891261eo1.jpg)
There is nothing wrong with expecting to win. Losing is for losers. We want to win. Wojo has been given all the resources necessary to win. It's been 3 years and we still have a shallow roster that has a difficult time competing. It is very disappointing.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on January 08, 2017, 02:09:45 PM
There is nothing wrong with expecting to win. Losing is for losers. We want to win. Wojo has been given all the resources necessary to win. It's been 3 years and we still have a shallow roster that has a difficult time competing. It is very disappointing.
If we had beat Pitt and SHU would you be still saying the same?
I would bet no. Those were two losses where our team coughed it up.
Only 3 games where they couldn't compete so far. 2 games where we couldn't finish.
Quote from: gepsguys on January 08, 2017, 01:58:57 PM
Georgia also potential NCAA team whom we beat on the road. That counts as 2 wins. ;D so 2-5.
Sssshhhh, that doesn't fit the agenda.
Quote from: Oregon Warrior on January 08, 2017, 12:41:00 PM
The season isn't over yet so how can you say so definitively that progress has been made? That seems awfully subjective. If progress is determined by wins and losses vs quality opponents, we have played five potential tournament teams thus far. Michigan, Pitt, Wisconsin, Seton Hall and Villanova. We are 0-5 vs those teams. Michigan and Nova destroyed us. Seton Hall and Pitt could have been wins but weren't and Wisconsin was close for a half. I don't think anyone is big on moral victories so is 0-5 progress to you? There is a lot of season left so they can turn things around but as of right now, I'm struggling to see the progress you speak of.
Anyone that can watch last year's team and this year's team and not see that this year's team is definitively better is blind.
You're on fire, brewski!
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 08, 2017, 03:06:58 PM
Anyone that can watch last year's team and this year's team and not see that this year's team is definitively better is blind.
True!
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on January 08, 2017, 02:09:45 PM
There is nothing wrong with expecting to win. Losing is for losers. We want to win. Wojo has been given all the resources necessary to win. It's been 3 years and we still have a shallow roster that has a difficult time competing. It is very disappointing.
I don't understand what this means. We will never be a Duke, UNC, UK, Kansas, etc when it comes to recruiting. So we have to do it other ways outside of elite recruits.
What resources does Wojo have that you would expect him to build a sustained winner/sweet 16 team/whatever your expectation is (from a crap-pile) in 3 years?
Quote from: ecompt on January 08, 2017, 01:03:14 PM
Nice post, Brew. We are better than we were in Buzz's last season, when he quit on the team. The question is whether the progress can be maintained. Howard and Hauser are keepers, but next year's freshmen are going to have to play 25-30 minutes a night simply because we're not going to have the bodies to bang in the BE. Haanif is too good to struggle forever, so there's hope there. I think the key is the 2018 recruiting class. We need at least one 6'8 bruiser and a 6-4 guard to add to next year's class. Frustrating to look that far ahead, but until that time there are nights we are going to get shelled. As for the Fischer stats, when you are the tallest player on the floor and go back-to-back games without a defensive rebound, something is wrong. It would be one thing if he was being lured away from the basket and was able to stop someone 10 feet out, but that's not the case. He simply has to play harder, and he himself said so last night.
I do not think this true. Buzz's last year he went 9-9 in conference and the team was very close to having a much better record, but the team lost several overtime games. The team achieving a 9-9 record with Derrick and Thomas as starting guards was in hindsight a pretty amazing coaching accomplishment. We just did not see it that way, because we had much higher expectations.
Quote from: Oregon Warrior on January 08, 2017, 12:41:00 PM
The season isn't over yet so how can you say so definitively that progress has been made? That seems awfully subjective. If progress is determined by wins and losses vs quality opponents, we have played five potential tournament teams thus far. Michigan, Pitt, Wisconsin, Seton Hall and Villanova. We are 0-5 vs those teams. Michigan and Nova destroyed us. Seton Hall and Pitt could have been wins but weren't and Wisconsin was close for a half. I don't think anyone is big on moral victories so is 0-5 progress to you? There is a lot of season left so they can turn things around but as of right now, I'm struggling to see the progress you speak of.
I would add Georgia to the list of potential tourney teams.
Quote from: bilsu on January 08, 2017, 04:19:17 PM
I do not think this true. Buzz's last year he went 9-9 in conference and the team was very close to having a much better record, but the team lost several overtime games. The team achieving a 9-9 record with Derrick and Thomas as starting guards was in hindsight a pretty amazing coaching accomplishment. We just did not see it that way, because we had much higher expectations.
Disagree. That team finished barely top 100. This team will finish at least top 75. I still think we are on track for NCAA bid. Gotta win 9 of the next 15.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 08, 2017, 04:25:06 PM
Disagree. That team finished barely top 100. This team will finish at least top 75. I still think we are on track for NCAA bid. Gotta win 9 of the next 15.
KenPom 68 in Buzz's last year.
Quote from: bilsu on January 08, 2017, 04:19:17 PM
I do not think this true. Buzz's last year he went 9-9 in conference and the team was very close to having a much better record, but the team lost several overtime games. The team achieving a 9-9 record with Derrick and Thomas as starting guards was in hindsight a pretty amazing coaching accomplishment. We just did not see it that way, because we had much higher expectations.
Also disagree. That team stumbled through the non-conference, losing every game of significance and struggling far more than they should have with teams like Southern and New Hampshire. We're better at almost every position this year. The only guy on that team that would be starting for us now would be Jamil. Gardner would get minutes, but even with his shortcomings Luke is a better two-way player than Ox ever was.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 08, 2017, 04:25:06 PM
Disagree. That team finished barely top 100. This team will finish at least top 75. I still think we are on track for NCAA bid. Gotta win 9 of the next 15.
I think you are disagreeing about which team is better and that remains to be seen. I was more thinking about the notion that Buzz quit on the team. That would indicate his last team greatly underachieved. Based on preseason expectations that team certainly underachieved. However, I was pointing out that winning 9 conference games with that starting back court was an amazing accomplishment. This year's team certainly is more talented in the backcourt, but it remains to be seen if it will win 9 conference games. Let me ask you this. Do you think Wojo would of won 9 conference games with Buzz's last team? If your answer is no than how can it be that Buzz quit on his last team?
Just started following Marquette Basketball. Can't understand uproar over this years team. You have some nice players that are fun to watch. If you were in the A10 you would be a powerhouse. The Big East is extremely competitive this year. You have a nice group of guards and forwards who are just a notch below the big east big boys. To me, you have a real fun team to watch Villanova, Butler and Creighton have too much right now. Great win over Gtown. Hang in there. having 2 guards around 5:10 who are that good---fun along with your 6.5 type perimeter players. They are all nice players. Enjoy them.
Quote from: bilsu on January 08, 2017, 04:49:01 PM
I think you are disagreeing about which team is better and that remains to be seen. I was more thinking about the notion that Buzz quit on the team. That would indicate his last team greatly underachieved. Based on preseason expectations that team certainly underachieved. However, I was pointing out that winning 9 conference games with that starting back court was an amazing accomplishment. This year's team certainly is more talented in the backcourt, but it remains to be seen if it will win 9 conference games. Let me ask you this. Do you think Wojo would of won 9 conference games with Buzz's last team? If your answer is no than how can it be that Buzz quit on his last team?
I never bought into the "Buzz quit on his team" narrative. Buzz couldn't find a PG. Teams with great talent can be undone by lack of that one key position.
Dis ain't no A-10, bro. We are Marquette, ai na?
Quote from: scout on January 08, 2017, 04:54:53 PM
Just started following Marquette Basketball. Can't understand uproar over this years team. You have some nice players that are fun to watch. If you were in the A10 you would be a powerhouse. The Big East is extremely competitive this year. You have a nice group of guards and forwards who are just a notch below the big east big boys. To me, you have a real fun team to watch Villanova, Butler and Creighton have too much right now. Great win over Gtown. Hang in there. having 2 guards around 5:10 who are that good---fun along with your 6.5 type perimeter players. They are all nice players. Enjoy them.
scout is my new favorite Scooper.
I am one of those old timers. I thought MU played better than I expected. And yes I also expect more from the seniors, especially when it comes to judgement and toughness. It is a shame because we are closer to winning theses games than I think most here believe. Yes the old guys expect more because the old MU teams lost only due to their level of talent, not judgement or toughness. We used to be junkyard dogs who could never shoot like this team but never question their heart. I like this current team and there is a lot of talent. The problems are there, however, and is frustrating. Yes old folks expect more because we know what commitment and effort is required to win at anything in life.
Look basketball is just a game.
The commitment and effort required to win, however, is a profoundly important lesson we all need to learn. Set the bar high young lads your time to succeed is short.
Quote from: warriorchick on January 08, 2017, 05:30:50 PM
scout is my new favorite Scooper.
I was thinking the same +1 as Vegas.
Plus, it made me stop my gofundme giving functionality to Scoop to ban anyone with < 100 posts from posting within 48hrs of a loss. Good work Scout.
Great. This is turning into the scout board. Better than the N(ostradam)ers board.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 08, 2017, 03:38:09 PM
I don't understand what this means. We will never be a Duke, UNC, UK, Kansas, etc when it comes to recruiting. So we have to do it other ways outside of elite recruits.
What resources does Wojo have that you would expect him to build a sustained winner/sweet 16 team/whatever your expectation is (from a crap-pile) in 3 years?
It was reported in Scoop a couple years ago that Marquette invests the second highest amount of money in the nation on its basketball program.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on January 08, 2017, 08:47:33 PM
It was reported in Scoop a couple years ago that Marquette invests the second highest amount of money in the nation on its basketball program.
So you're talking pure financial backing from the university and zero other factors/variables into account. Got it.
Guess, from your perspective, any coach should be able to walk in here and with any recruits, achieve/exceed expectations of the entire fanbase.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 08, 2017, 04:40:35 PM
Gardner would get minutes, but even with his shortcomings Luke is a better two-way player than Ox ever was.
Even though I bet their stats are similar, Luke has maybe half the intensity and competitiveness that Ox had. Sure, he had plenty of plays that he didn't get back D because he had some... mobility issues, but in big games he wanted the ball and wanted to win. Definitely wasnt soft like Fischer.
Ox was a fun player to watch, and even the few games he played this summer in TBT he was still a favorite of mine to see play. Fischer just doesn't seem to have the same competitive drive that most athletes at this level do.
Don't forget that he pouted when he didn't get the ball.
Quote from: scout on January 08, 2017, 04:54:53 PM
Just started following Marquette Basketball. Can't understand uproar over this years team. You have some nice players that are fun to watch. If you were in the A10 you would be a powerhouse. The Big East is extremely competitive this year. You have a nice group of guards and forwards who are just a notch below the big east big boys. To me, you have a real fun team to watch Villanova, Butler and Creighton have too much right now. Great win over Gtown. Hang in there. having 2 guards around 5:10 who are that good---fun along with your 6.5 type perimeter players. They are all nice players. Enjoy them.
Right on baby, the issue is on not being the best A10 team in the league.
As one of the more vocal posters around I feel like I should chime in here. What bothers me more than anything is people thinking we can't have high expectations. Why the hell shouldn't we?? It also bothers me to no end the people that are content with where the program is right now. That tells me those people never played sports, or if they did, just did it for fun, and have NO level of competitiveness whatsoever. That just baffles me. Every fan, should NOT be okay with a loss, ever. Yes, they happen, I get that, but to just "accept it" shrug your shoulders and instantly move on?? I will NEVER understand that thinking. Ever. Whether you voice your frustrations here, or do it privately, you SHOULD be angry, you should be frustrated, you should be wondering if this program will ever achieve the levels it was at not that long ago.
You can say it's "entitled cry babies" all you want, but look at attendance, it has dropped off substantially. Students aren't showing up, and if progress is measured by adding a few more wins year to year...well that's just small time thinking. is that really what the Marquette program has become?? Where winning isn't that important?? As long as we have a nice program, graduate the kids and have a good public image, we are satisfied?? That's a pathetic way of thinking. Whether any of us want to admit it or not, College basketball is a business, it's about the bottom line. That bottom line isn't achieved, people get fired. Those that think it's "okay" that there has been no postseason whatsoever the last 3 years(nevermind no NCAA bids), should go root for Duhpaul. You'll get plenty of no postseason there.
I get Buzz stripped the roster when he left, but so what?? Programs have turned worse around quicker. My biggest problem right now is with Wojo as a Coach..how many truly big wins has he had in 3 years?? Okay he beat UW last year when they were at their worst, and Providence last year when they were ranked...big f'n deal. Bottom line under Wojo, they have not had truly any big wins of signifcance in 3 years(a lot of times, those happen just by accident), and he has NO idea apparently how to hide his players deficiencies or play to his player's strengths. Buzz was VERY good at that. he could hide weaknesses, and he would exploit other teams weaknesses. I like Wojo's recruiting, but that has to equate to W's...and they just haven't been there, that's a problem, and should be a problem for EVERYONE, but apparently it's not.
Who says people aren't angry after a loss and that we are content with where the program is now? I know I am and I'm sure Brew and the other "sunshine pumpers" are too. But it is possible to be angry and discontent without attacking 18 to 23 year old kids, dipping into hyperbole, demanding a man should be fired for from his job, and making declarations about how we are terrible and will never win another game. The emotions are the same, they are just channeled differently. And that's the important thing to remember. I'm guilty of getting annoyed at the doom and gloom posters but I know their posts are coming from the same emotion I'm feeling and the same desire to make Marquette great again....man even in this context that line make me feel slimy. The one thing I wish I wouldn't see is bashing the players. Critique their games sure, but not in a way that attacks them personally. I know I'm guilty of doing that sometimes.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:58:44 AMAs one of the more vocal posters around I feel like I should chime in here. What bothers me more than anything is people thinking we can't have high expectations. Why the hell shouldn't we?? It also bothers me to no end the people that are content with where the program is right now.
Who said we can't have high expectations?
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:58:44 AMThat tells me those people never played sports, or if they did, just did it for fun, and have NO level of competitiveness whatsoever. That just baffles me.
Not at all true.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:58:44 AMEvery fan, should NOT be okay with a loss, ever. Yes, they happen, I get that, but to just "accept it" shrug your shoulders and instantly move on?? I will NEVER understand that thinking. Ever. Whether you voice your frustrations here, or do it privately, you SHOULD be angry, you should be frustrated, you should be wondering if this program will ever achieve the levels it was at not that long ago.
What, so everyone should always be winners and always get a trophy? Give me a break. And how will your anger, frustration, and crying after a loss change anything?
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:58:44 AMYou can say it's "entitled cry babies" all you want, but look at attendance, it has dropped off substantially. Students aren't showing up,
Attendance is down across college basketball and sports in general.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:58:44 AMand if progress is measured by adding a few more wins year to year...well that's just small time thinking. is that really what the Marquette program has become??
If our program added two wins per year starting now, that would make us a perennial 30-win team in 5 years. Is that small-time thinking?
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:58:44 AMWhere winning isn't that important?? As long as we have a nice program, graduate the kids and have a good public image, we are satisfied?? That's a pathetic way of thinking.
Okay, here's where you are really off base. Marquette is, first and foremost, a university. Its responsibility is to grow and shape young minds, to educate, and to turn out quality individuals. This is done by embracing the Cura Personalis mindset. I think we all want MU to win at the highest level, I think we all want to see our program at the level of Villanova, but if you sacrifice your ideals to get there, what's it really worth? Cheating to win, taking the low road, there's more to life than W's and L's. I don't want a program that gets there like that.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:58:44 AMWhether any of us want to admit it or not, College basketball is a business, it's about the bottom line. That bottom line isn't achieved, people get fired. Those that think it's "okay" that there has been no postseason whatsoever the last 3 years(nevermind no NCAA bids), should go root for Duhpaul. You'll get plenty of no postseason there.
And again, no one is saying this. You're just making crap up. We all want to win. Some of us also care that we do in a way that makes us proud of Marquette as a University, not just as an athletic team.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:58:44 AMI get Buzz stripped the roster when he left, but so what?? Programs have turned worse around quicker.
I have addressed that numerous times. Would you be happy to have Villanova's program? Would that put a smile on your face and a boner in your pants? To be defending national champs, ranked in the top-5, and whooping darn near everyone you play? It took Jay Wright 4 years to make the tournament and 16 years to win a title. Yes, you can quick fix your way to the NCAAs, but I don't think anyone at Marquette wants to build a program that has the goal of getting to the tournament. They want a program that can sustain itself over the years and have the potential to make deep NCAA runs and challenge for titles. As of yesterday, no teams in the top-10 had a coach with fewer than 4 years current job tenure (Alford at UCLA, but has 22 years experience).
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:58:44 AMMy biggest problem right now is with Wojo as a Coach..how many truly big wins has he had in 3 years?? Okay he beat UW last year when they were at their worst, and Providence last year when they were ranked...big f'n deal.
Well yeah, when you dismiss all the big wins, it's easy to say he doesn't have any big wins. He has 5 wins over NCAA Tournament teams.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:58:44 AMBottom line under Wojo, they have not had truly any big wins of signifcance in 3 years(a lot of times, those happen just by accident), and he has NO idea apparently how to hide his players deficiencies or play to his player's strengths. Buzz was VERY good at that. he could hide weaknesses, and he would exploit other teams weaknesses. I like Wojo's recruiting, but that has to equate to W's...and they just haven't been there, that's a problem, and should be a problem for EVERYONE, but apparently it's not.
We have a top-20 in the country offense, yet he isn't playing to his player's strengths? This year's offense has a higher efficiency rating than Buzz ever had here. So your claim is completely, patently false. The defense isn't there, but our best defenders are freshmen and sophomores, and defense corrolates with length, which we have none of (but will have next year).
At the end of the day, the simple truth is that you are going to cry and whine every time we lose like it's your last night on earth. Anything less than a national title every single year will be a complete, abject failure. It's a sad state of affairs, and completely bewilders me that you are over the age of 4 with that type of mindset. Losing is a part of life. It builds character. And it makes the winning all the more sweet. Hell, even Villanova lost this past week.
Right now, we are 10-5 (so we're winning more than losing) after a 20-win season. Grow up. Grow a pair. Of course, you won't. You'll just wait until the next loss and toss all your toys out of the crib just like you do every time we lose.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 08, 2017, 08:51:33 PM
So you're talking pure financial backing from the university and zero other factors/variables into account. Got it.
Guess, from your perspective, any coach should be able to walk in here and with any recruits, achieve/exceed expectations of the entire fanbase.
Darn right.o
How many teams go undefeated? How many teams win championships? How many have a realistic chance? As a competitor and a coach, I usually have/had a pretty good idea of how good my team was/is/is going to be. Now as a coach, my job is to get the talent on the team to play to the best of its ability. Sometimes, in good years, that is good enough to go undefeated. Those are rare years. More often, you know if everything falls right, you can compete with anybody. Those are fun years, too. Good record, good kids, a couple of losses, but more good than bad. Sometimes, you know from the first practice that the whole season is going to be about teaching and getting the most out of a bad team. A win is for a kid to make a play for the first time. Field a ball and make a throw. Catch a pass and get off a decent shot, whether it goes in or not. Those seasons are tougher but have their own rewards.
The key is to realistically look at the hand you are dealt and set your expectations based on reality.
The reality of this team is that it has a 3rd year coach with his second full recruiting class. It has a talented but unbalanced and thin roster that can shoot the ball, but isn't really set up to be good defensively. Too short in too many positions, too slow at others. So, some games the shooting and scoring will be enough, some games the defensive liabilities will be too much to overcome.
My expectation is for improvement as a program. That this season, like the previous two, are building blocks. Laying the foundation for when this program returns to being one of the bullies in the Big East. I'm still not 100% sold on Wojo, but I can now see the outlines of the plan. This team is not a championship team. But the seeds are being planted for one down the road.
It is the difference between being able to see the big picture and take the long view and being all about the instant gratification. Maturity and immaturity as a fan.
How do you folks feel about Fitz's tweet bashing?
https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielJohnFitz/status/817951410415345665
One of my recurring criticisms of this team is the lack of senior leadership. So, I agree with his tweet. But that doesn't mean this team is under performing my expectations. The freshmen being better than I expected is roughly offsetting the lack of a go-to upperclassman. Which bodes well for coming seasons.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 09, 2017, 07:41:16 AM
How do you folks feel about Fitz's tweet bashing?
https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielJohnFitz/status/817951410415345665
I wouldn't really call that a "bashing". The guys on the board saying "time for Luke to graduate" are bashing him. "Luke needs to figure it out and quick" is a realistic outlook on what it's going to take to turn this team around.
His tweet later in the thread reads: "@Matt_Velazquez he's got it in him to make this slump a turning point. Being a senior, time is ticking. #MUBB". " Overall I think he's being very reasonable with his tweets.
While I generally agree the fact that Scoop can be a heavy concentration of whiners after a loss, I do think there is some legitimate reason for being upset. I get the argument that they are not under performing expectations, they are about where I expected them to be. However, like I said in the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug), I do miss the times when Marquette was good. What I mean by that is feeling confident going into each game that we had a good shot of winning regardless of opponent. I recognize that we're rebuilding and the product is better now than it was Buzz's last season, but that doesn't take away the frustration of having been a consistently good team for years and now being an average team at best.
I think we're on the right path and should stay the course but that doesn't mean we can't be very frustrated by where we are. And again, winning cures a lot of ills, so if the MU wants to silence the grumbles, putting a winning product on the court.
Quote from: mu03eng on January 09, 2017, 07:59:13 AM
While I generally agree the fact that Scoop can be a heavy concentration of whiners after a loss, I do think there is some legitimate reason for being upset. I get the argument that they are not under performing expectations, they are about where I expected them to be. However, like I said in the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug), I do miss the times when Marquette was good. What I mean by that is feeling confident going into each game that we had a good shot of winning regardless of opponent. I recognize that we're rebuilding and the product is better now than it was Buzz's last season, but that doesn't take away the frustration of having been a consistently good team for years and now being an average team at best.
I think we're on the right path and should stay the course but that doesn't mean we can't be very frustrated by where we are. And again, winning cures a lot of ills, so if the MU wants to silence the grumbles, putting a winning product on the court.
This is well said...particularly feeling like we had a
chance to win every game.
I am frustrated not with the result this year (w/l record) but how its occurred in many games. What used to make MU special for decades was effort/toughness/defense. Just a small improvement here could get us to the tourney because of our really strong O. Our defense has taken us out of so many games - usually not that far into the second half.
I said this earlier, but if the team that played SHU showed up more often I like our chances for the rest of the season. We need Luke and JJJ to do what Fitz is asking.
Brew and Tower, appreciate your efforts to keep a rational perspective on the fanaticism of fandom. Great posts. This argument wears me out.
Ultimately, it comes down to one thing: Wojo, like any new coach, deserves 4-5 years to show us what he's got. But some will never agree with even that basic premise. They believe that anything short of a deep NCAA run is a failure as a season. They hold Wojo to the standard of success that Al established, without giving him the same chance to build a program — because they refuse to believe the legendary MU basketball program should ever need to be rebuilt.
If you have any amount of patience and see potential for what this team could be in a season or two, you're only making excuses for a bunch of underachieving losers. Just win, baby. Anything less is a sign that you don't really care about winning at all.
While I've certainly found the past few seasons frustrating as a fan, I've also enjoyed a lot of great moments and am truly excited about where the program is headed. And there's a lot of season yet to be played.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 09, 2017, 07:26:20 AM
It took Jay Wright 4 years to make the tournament and 16 years to win a title.
Well yeah, when you dismiss all the big wins, it's easy to say he doesn't have any big wins. He has 5 wins over NCAA Tournament teams.
brewski ...
Many folks here just don't want to acknowledge that Jay Wright fact. They either think Wright was an immediate sensation at Nova or they simply choose to ignore it because it hurts their thesis. They think Wojo should have stepped in on Day 1 and been Year 5 Wright. They don't want to acknowledge that Coach K and Calhoun and some of the other all-time greats needed time to build top programs. They say things like, "There was a reason he spent more than a decade as an assistant" without acknowledging that Izzo and Williams did the same.
And then, if we point out the facts, it means we are apologists who don't want to win.
Regarding the second statement, that was my immediate reaction. It was like the time Vikings players said, "Our run defense actually was pretty good if you take away those three runs by Sanders." But their inability to take away the three 60+ yard runs is why they got crushed.
So yes, by all means, take away our wins against Providence, Butler, Wisconsin, Creighton, Georgia and LSU, and Wojo has no good wins.
Given that the Va Tech Buzzards have followed their win over a depleted Duke team by getting blown out in consecutive games against NC State and Fla State, I guess Buzz doesn't really have that win over Duke, right?
Sometimes, folks here crack me up without trying.
Quote from: MU82 on January 09, 2017, 08:41:30 AM
brewski ...
Many folks here just don't want to acknowledge that Jay Wright fact. They either think Wright was an immediate sensation at Nova or they simply choose to ignore it because it hurts their thesis. They think Wojo should have stepped in on Day 1 and been Year 5 Wright. They don't want to acknowledge that Coach K and Calhoun and some of the other all-time greats needed time to build top programs. They say things like, "There was a reason he spent more than a decade as an assistant" without acknowledging that Izzo and Williams did the same.
And then, if we point out the facts, it means we are apologists who don't want to win.
Regarding the second statement, that was my immediate reaction. It was like the time Vikings players said, "Our run defense actually was pretty good if you take away those three runs by Sanders." But their inability to take away the three 60+ yard runs is why they got crushed.
So yes, by all means, take away our wins against Providence, Butler, Wisconsin, Creighton, Georgia and LSU, and Wojo has no good wins.
Given that the Va Tech Buzzards have followed their win over a depleted Duke team by getting blown out in consecutive games against NC State and Fla State, I guess Buzz doesn't really have that win over Duke, right?
Sometimes, folks here crack me up without trying.
But like with all things you have to filter out the crazies on both ends of the spectrum. There are folks that want to fire Wojo the first time he doesn't win by 5 just like there are folks that want to see no issues with the program whatsoever.
The majority of the "whiners", especially after a loss are in the extremist category and should be rightly ignored. However, there is reason to be concerned with this team and Wojo generally that need to be discussed. Luke Fischer has been a major problem on the defensive end all season long and Wojo seems unable to fix it. Just like JjJ's sloppiness has been a concern all season and doesn't seem to be improving. Those are certainly concerns for this season, but also concerns for long term. Haanif Cheatham seems to be following the same offensive arc this season as Sandy did last season, that gives me a little pause around Wojo's ability to develop players. When Wojo is quoted in the newspaper as being frustrated by a performance and saying his team didn't compete after essentially a bye week, that is counter to everything a Marquette team has been over the last 20 years, that is concerning.
Yes the crazies are going to be hyperbolic about a lot of this stuff, but that doesn't mean there isn't a nugget of truth or concern there. I'm still optimistic that this team makes the NCAA tournament which should shut up some of the crazies, but I get why there are crazies, there are definite areas of concern that could be potentially more than just typical growing pains of a first time coach or representative of the smoking crater Buzz left the program in.
Every year has embarrassing results:
- 2008-09 against Dayton in Chicago.
- 2009-10 getting blown out by Georgetown at the BET.
- 2010-11 No effort against St John's at home, then decimated by Louisville at the BET.
- 2011-12 Vanderbilt stuffing us in a wood chipper on our own court.
- 2012-13 Obliterated at Florida and Louisville, with a stunning Green Bay upset sandwiched in between that left Scoop apoplectic.
- 2013-14 Lifting the lid on the season to find a 35 point steaming turd in the toilet courtesy of Ohio State at home.
Every year under Buzz we had embarrassing games. The Amigos, the Midgets, the NCAA teams and the final season. I'd argue this loss was less damaging, against #1 on the road, than any of those. We're always good for a couple where we aren't competitive. What's important is how we respond and play over the balance of the season.
Quote from: g0lden3agle on January 09, 2017, 07:53:10 AM
I wouldn't really call that a "bashing". The guys on the board saying "time for Luke to graduate" are bashing him. "Luke needs to figure it out and quick" is a realistic outlook on what it's going to take to turn this team around.
His tweet later in the thread reads: "@Matt_Velazquez he's got it in him to make this slump a turning point. Being a senior, time is ticking. #MUBB". " Overall I think he's being very reasonable with his tweets.
This is a basketball alumni publically calling out the team and Luke specifically. Wojo called the team out for not competing. This was the worst (or one of the worst) defensive game statistically in our lifetimes. Yet, we get a 287 word opus whining about the need for whiners to quit whining while the coach, basketball alumni and Pomeroy say there is a lot to whine about. How ironic.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 09, 2017, 09:09:39 AM
Every year has embarrassing results:
- 2008-09 against Dayton in Chicago.
- 2009-10 getting blown out by Georgetown at the BET.
- 2010-11 No effort against St John's at home, then decimated by Louisville at the BET.
- 2011-12 Vanderbilt stuffing us in a wood chipper on our own court.
- 2012-13 Obliterated at Florida and Louisville, with a stunning Green Bay upset sandwiched in between that left Scoop apoplectic.
- 2013-14 Lifting the lid on the season to find a 35 point steaming turd in the toilet courtesy of Ohio State at home.
Every year under Buzz we had embarrassing games. The Amigos, the Midgets, the NCAA teams and the final season. I'd argue this loss was less damaging, against #1 on the road, than any of those. We're always good for a couple where we aren't competitive. What's important is how we respond and play over the balance of the season.
Yeah, but the whining has been consistent every time those non-competitive events happened(Remember Western Michigan NIT home game?). The board is at least consistent in getting apoplectic around those types of loses. Your original post seems to be about the level of vitriol this time being higher (I disagree) and that overall tone of the board being more negative throughout the season (I agree it is, but not without some justification).
Keep in mind that MU was very competitive from 2000 to 2014 which spanned two coaching staffs and now we are in year 3 of a new staff that isn't as competitive in year 3 as the previous two staffs were. Fair or not, the program is measurably behind the pace previously experienced, that's going to lead to unhappiness and concern. I think a fair amount is over the top, but not all of it.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 09, 2017, 09:16:29 AM
This is a basketball alumni publically calling out the team and Luke specifically. Wojo called the team out for not competing. This was the worst (or one of the worst) defensive game statistically in our lifetimes. Yet, we get a 287 word opus whining about the need for whiners to quit whining while the coach, basketball alumni and Pomeroy say there is a lot to whine about. How ironic.
I guess I just put all the things that you just mentioned in the "reasonable critiquing" category. The (probably futile) purpose of this thread was to address the comments on the board that are creeping more towards the irrational (fire Wojo/Luke and JjJ and just graduate already).
Quote from: mu03eng on January 09, 2017, 09:27:35 AM
Yeah, but the whining has been consistent every time those non-competitive events happened(Remember Western Michigan NIT home game?). The board is at least consistent in getting apoplectic around those types of loses. Your original post seems to be about the level of vitriol this time being higher (I disagree) and that overall tone of the board being more negative throughout the season (I agree it is, but not without some justification).
Keep in mind that MU was very competitive from 2000 to 2014 which spanned two coaching staffs and now we are in year 3 of a new staff that isn't as competitive in year 3 as the previous two staffs were. Fair or not, the program is measurably behind the pace previously experienced, that's going to lead to unhappiness and concern. I think a fair amount is over the top, but not all of it.
I wasn't on here in 08-09 after Buzz lost to Dayton, but were people bouncing off the walls freaking out?
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 09, 2017, 09:34:34 AM
I wasn't on here in 08-09 after Buzz lost to Dayton, but were people bouncing off the walls freaking out?
Basically the place looked like this
(http://bigeastmeadow.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/simpsons-angry-villagers.jpg)
For folks making the Jay Wright comparisons, Jay made the NIT in his first 3 years as head coach at Villanova, then made the NCAA Sweet 16 in his 4th year. The next four years Nova went Elite Eight, First Round, Sweet 16, and then Final Four.
If Marquette can at least make the NIT this post-season, then I think some of the worries about Wojo would lessen some. I think that is still a long shot at this point in time, though, as I do not think the Marquette's roster matches up well against the top half of the Big East (Nova, Creighton, Xavier, Butler, Seton Hall).
Quote from: MU82 on January 09, 2017, 08:41:30 AM
brewski ...
Many folks here just don't want to acknowledge that Jay Wright fact. They either think Wright was an immediate sensation at Nova or they simply choose to ignore it because it hurts their thesis. They think Wojo should have stepped in on Day 1 and been Year 5 Wright. They don't want to acknowledge that Coach K and Calhoun and some of the other all-time greats needed time to build top programs. They say things like, "There was a reason he spent more than a decade as an assistant" without acknowledging that Izzo and Williams did the same.
And then, if we point out the facts, it means we are apologists who don't want to win.
Regarding the second statement, that was my immediate reaction. It was like the time Vikings players said, "Our run defense actually was pretty good if you take away those three runs by Sanders." But their inability to take away the three 60+ yard runs is why they got crushed.
So yes, by all means, take away our wins against Providence, Butler, Wisconsin, Creighton, Georgia and LSU, and Wojo has no good wins.
Given that the Va Tech Buzzards have followed their win over a depleted Duke team by getting blown out in consecutive games against NC State and Fla State, I guess Buzz doesn't really have that win over Duke, right?
Sometimes, folks here crack me up without trying.
I can tell you thats not my issue. My issue is to this point I believe that Wojo cant teach defense. Also, I dont get those that assume if Wojo is successful that he would stay. And if we are to believe the time frame put forth by those on the long term plan bandwagon that will come in year five. So MU could have 1 good year out of 6 and at that time we could easily lose Wojo...
Cant say that for sure but you can say it wont happen either.
So at that time its likely we have 1 good season out of 6 and could be rebuilding again. I dont like those odds. If MU was going to go the long term route and we were to be patient maybe a guy like Wardle should have been the choice with the clear message to the fan base that this would take time but would solidify the program long term.
I dont see any guarantee that Wojo even if successful would stay and that we should pursue a 15 year plan with him.
Wojo would have to have one hell of a year to jump to a program better than MU if he had 1 good year out of 6.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 09, 2017, 09:55:41 AM
Wojo would have to have one hell of a year to jump to a program better than MU if he had 1 good year out of 6.
Really? Isnt he already on the short list for Duke?
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 10:00:03 AM
Really? Isnt he already on the short list for Duke?
Consider the writer of those articles. Absolutely not, go to the DBR board and they will laugh you off it.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:58:44 AM
As one of the more vocal posters around I feel like I should chime in here. What bothers me more than anything is people thinking we can't have high expectations. Why the hell shouldn't we?? It also bothers me to no end the people that are content with where the program is right now. That tells me those people never played sports, or if they did, just did it for fun, and have NO level of competitiveness whatsoever. That just baffles me. Every fan, should NOT be okay with a loss, ever. Yes, they happen, I get that, but to just "accept it" shrug your shoulders and instantly move on?? I will NEVER understand that thinking. Ever. Whether you voice your frustrations here, or do it privately, you SHOULD be angry, you should be frustrated, you should be wondering if this program will ever achieve the levels it was at not that long ago.
People who truly get "angry" over how their sports teams are performing, should probably get some perspective in life.
I'm not going to lose any sleep after losing to the #1 team in the nation (temporarily #1), who are also the defending national champs, at home after coming off their first loss in roughly 20 games.
I'll have a different reaction if they lose to Seton Hall at home in a couple of days.
Quote from: mu03eng on January 09, 2017, 09:27:35 AM
Yeah, but the whining has been consistent every time those non-competitive events happened(Remember Western Michigan NIT home game?). The board is at least consistent in getting apoplectic around those types of loses. Your original post seems to be about the level of vitriol this time being higher (I disagree) and that overall tone of the board being more negative throughout the season (I agree it is, but not without some justification).
Keep in mind that MU was very competitive from 2000 to 2014 which spanned two coaching staffs and now we are in year 3 of a new staff that isn't as competitive in year 3 as the previous two staffs were. Fair or not, the program is measurably behind the pace previously experienced, that's going to lead to unhappiness and concern. I think a fair amount is over the top, but not all of it.
All the Buzz comparisons and "Wojo isn't this" or "Wojo isn't that" complaints make it seem like bad times never happened before he came. That's what led, in my opinion, to the entitled pissing and moaning.
The two worst things that happened to our program of late were Buzz making the tourney in 2010 with a team nobody expected anything out of, which convinced our fanbase the postseason is our divine right and the ascension of Wisconsin, which created jealousy when our cross state rivals outperform us.
Our defense plays well against Georgetown and Seton Hall, then we fly into a "Wojo can't coach" panic when maybe the best offense in the country has their best game of the season against us. Luke and JJ lead us in SOTGs, yet we want them gone because of one uninspired loss.
I suppose I'm whining about the whining as much as the whiners are whining about the game, but jeez, last I checked the sun still rose the past couple days and we've still got half a season to play.
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 10:00:03 AM
Really? Isnt he already on the short list for Duke?
No. Duke will have their pick future HOF coaches, NBA coaches, the top young up and coming coaches, not to mention Jeff Capel who is getting an audition this year. Only way Wojo gets that job is if he builds Marquette into a regular top 25 team or he leads them to a Final Four (or both).
Now, the coach to follow a legend often fails. If that happens, Wojo might be the guy to take over for that guy. But again, only if he's successful.
With the back surgery happening this year I wonder how many years K actually has left.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 09, 2017, 10:20:19 AM
No. Duke will have their pick future HOF coaches, NBA coaches, the top young up and coming coaches, not to mention Jeff Capel who is getting an audition this year. Only way Wojo gets that job is if he builds Marquette into a regular top 25 team or he leads them to a Final Four (or both).
Now, the coach to follow a legend often fails. If that happens, Wojo might be the guy to take over for that guy. But again, only if he's successful.
With the back surgery happening this year I wonder how many years K actually has left.
I guess Im just going off of what alot are saying here that he already has been successful. So maybe its technically 5 out of 6 good seasons but with only 1 NCAA tournament bid...
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 09:49:44 AMAlso, I dont get those that assume if Wojo is successful that he would stay.
This is true of any coach. Rick Pitino, Brad Stevens and others left for the NBA after building successful programs. That's the price that comes with hiring good coaches — they'll be in high demand elsewhere. But there are plenty of examples of coaches who stick around for the long term.
At the highest level: Jim Boeheim (41 years at Syracuse), Coach K (37 years at Duke), Tom Izzo (22 years at Michigan State), even Roy Williams and Bill Self (14 years at UNC and Kansas, respectively, which is longer than Al McGuire's tenure at Marquette).
Longevity isn't just reserved for the blue bloods: Mark Few (18 years at Gonzaga), Mike Brey (17 years at Notre Dame), and of course, Jay Wright (16 years at Villanova).
If you don't think Wojo has what it takes to be successful at Marquette, that's one thing. But if you're worried about both the possibility that he'll be fired after 4-5 wasted seasons
and the possibility that he'll leave after getting us back to the Final Four, then you're pretty much guaranteed to be miserable no matter what.
Quote from: mu03eng on January 09, 2017, 09:06:49 AM
But like with all things you have to filter out the crazies on both ends of the spectrum. There are folks that want to fire Wojo the first time he doesn't win by 5 just like there are folks that want to see no issues with the program whatsoever.
The majority of the "whiners", especially after a loss are in the extremist category and should be rightly ignored. However, there is reason to be concerned with this team and Wojo generally that need to be discussed. Luke Fischer has been a major problem on the defensive end all season long and Wojo seems unable to fix it. Just like JjJ's sloppiness has been a concern all season and doesn't seem to be improving. Those are certainly concerns for this season, but also concerns for long term. Haanif Cheatham seems to be following the same offensive arc this season as Sandy did last season, that gives me a little pause around Wojo's ability to develop players. When Wojo is quoted in the newspaper as being frustrated by a performance and saying his team didn't compete after essentially a bye week, that is counter to everything a Marquette team has been over the last 20 years, that is concerning.
Yes the crazies are going to be hyperbolic about a lot of this stuff, but that doesn't mean there isn't a nugget of truth or concern there. I'm still optimistic that this team makes the NCAA tournament which should shut up some of the crazies, but I get why there are crazies, there are definite areas of concern that could be potentially more than just typical growing pains of a first time coach or representative of the smoking crater Buzz left the program in.
As usual, mu03, you're too damn reasonable. How am I supposed to get a perfectly good rant going?
In complaining about those on the extreme, I probably sound like somebody on the extreme. Something for me to work on.
I also fall into the category of "I'm passionate about Marquette hoops and I very much want to win, but it's still only basketball and not real life."
Go Warriors!
MU Scoop has been online for a decade, and three things are certain: We haven't won ten national championships in that stretch, there are people who complain, and people who complain about the complainers.
The trick is to figure out where we are, to find out the legitimacy of the two groups as time passes. Complaining about losing an Elite 8 game = not legit. Frankly, complaining about getting beat by the #1 team = not legit. Complaining about not being competitive / not making the dance == ??
You could grossly simplify MU's program path that .. the 70s were our glory years, followed by 20 odd years in the wilderness, with the 2000s getting us back on the road to, and finding national promience again.
For the love of all that's holy, it's not that we got stomped by the #1 team, even as Dr. B pointed out, the game was the worst defensive effort in our lifetimes .. the game showed that while there's 9 weeks to Selection Sunday, our lack of competitiveness indicates yet another bottom-half BE finish, a 4th straight sad Selection Sunday.
Because of the 2000s era, I define missing the NCCAs as the wilderness, (and I guess that makes me an "entitled fan.") How deep we are into that wilderness is likely 4 seasons. Are we getting closer to the path? I'd say we have a 20% chance of making the Dance this year and 50% next year, so "OK," we're finding our way.
We can quibble about those guesses somewhat, but I think they are pretty fair. I'd hope for higher than 50% for 2019, but honestly nothing so far has indicated dramatic improvement.
Can we all agree a coin flip is NO WHERE we want to be for our 5th+ year to just make it to the first round?
Quote from: Marcus92 on January 09, 2017, 10:26:04 AM
This is true of any coach. Rick Pitino, Brad Stevens and others left for the NBA after building successful programs. That's the price that comes with hiring good coaches — they'll be in high demand elsewhere. But there are plenty of examples of coaches who stick around for the long term.
At the highest level: Jim Boeheim (41 years at Syracuse), Coach K (37 years at Duke), Tom Izzo (22 years at Michigan State), even Roy Williams and Bill Self (14 years at UNC and Kansas, respectively, which is longer than Al McGuire's tenure at Marquette).
Longevity isn't just reserved for the blue bloods: Mark Few (18 years at Gonzaga), Mike Brey (17 years at Notre Dame), and of course, Jay Wright (16 years at Villanova).
If you don't think Wojo has what it takes to be successful at Marquette, that's one thing. But if you're worried about both the possibility that he'll be fired after 4-5 wasted seasons and the possibility that he'll leave after getting us back to the Final Four, then you're pretty much guaranteed to be miserable no matter what.
This.
Would Let's Go Warriors be happier if we had Shaka and if we were 7-8 right now (as he is with Texas) and he then turned things around to make the NCAAs next season and if Duke nabbed him then?
I mean, how does any school "guarantee" that its coach stays for X number of years? Silly.
Quote from: MU82 on January 09, 2017, 10:35:12 AM
This.
Would Let's Go Warriors be happier if we had Shaka and if we were 7-8 right now (as he is with Texas) and he then turned things around to make the NCAAs next season and if Duke nabbed him then?
I mean, how does any school "guarantee" that its coach stays for X number of years? Silly.
This post is obnoxious. I said if we were going to put in a 15 year plan we should have maybe gone with a guy like Wardle. Kind of the exact opposite of how you responded...
Silly
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 10:40:11 AM
This post is obnoxious. I said if we were going to put in a 15 year plan we should have maybe gone with a guy like Wardle. Kind of the exact opposite of how you responded...
Silly
I am all for stability in coaching hires, but Wardle hadn't really done enough to be under consideration at that point.
I'm late to the game but great original post brewcity. Loved it!
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on January 09, 2017, 10:47:20 AM
I am all for stability in coaching hires, but Wardle hadn't really done enough to be under consideration at that point.
Probably. But what has Wojo ever done as a HC? Also, couldnt we believe Wardle would be here for a long time? If that whats the plan seems to be? Go for a guy whom you can plan on for a while.
Not saying thats exactly what I would have done. Just saying to come on here and say be patient and the best coaches stay for 15 years is a bit of reach to equate to the Wojo situation at MU.
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 10:53:26 AM
Probably. But what has Wojo ever done as a HC? Also, couldnt we believe Wardle would be here for a long time? If that whats the plan seems to be? Go for a guy whom you can plan on for a while.
Not saying thats exactly what I would have done. Just saying to come on here and say be patient and the best coaches stay for 15 years is a bit of reach to equate to the Wojo situation at MU.
We could have hired Wardle but his teams tend to sh*t the bed.
Quote from: MU82 on January 09, 2017, 10:31:15 AM
As usual, mu03, you're too damn reasonable. How am I supposed to get a perfectly good rant going?
In complaining about those on the extreme, I probably sound like somebody on the extreme. Something for me to work on.
I also fall into the category of "I'm passionate about Marquette hoops and I very much want to win, but it's still only basketball and not real life."
Go Warriors!
As soon as I hit post, I did think to myself "there you go again ruining a perfectly good MU82 rant" so like Skynet I'm self aware. :)
Having said that, this post brings up a very relevant meta discussion around Scoop and Brew's original point. Is Scoop (or internet sports forums) a place for rational, reasonable discussion? Is that the point of message boards? We could all have rational, reasonable discussions in real life so do we need to recreate that on the internet? I wonder if I spend too much time trying to be balanced on the internet and just need to let my inner irrational run around.
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 10:53:26 AM
Probably. But what has Wojo ever done as a HC? Also, couldnt we believe Wardle would be here for a long time? If that whats the plan seems to be? Go for a guy whom you can plan on for a while.
Not saying thats exactly what I would have done. Just saying to come on here and say be patient and the best coaches stay for 15 years is a bit of reach to equate to the Wojo situation at MU.
Wojo was a much better known quantity than Wardle then and now. What's the point of longer term guarantees if you have no idea if you are going to have a turd or diamond for 15 years? Besides if Wardle is that loyal to MU, go get him once Wojo leaves for Duke (http://i.imgur.com/ywpPHgu.gif) after he's proven himself more. If he's going to coach here for 15 years he'll be willing to come later than sooner.
Quote from: mu03eng on January 09, 2017, 11:04:54 AM
Wojo was a much better known quantity than Wardle then and now. What's the point of longer term guarantees if you have no idea if you are going to have a turd or diamond for 15 years? Besides if Wardle is that loyal to MU, go get him once Wojo leaves for Duke (http://i.imgur.com/ywpPHgu.gif) after he's proven himself more. If he's going to coach here for 15 years he'll be willing to come later than sooner.
Bingo
And 2 of Wojos current players transfer and 2 of the 3 in his next recruiting class back out as well. Not much of a long term plan now is it?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on January 09, 2017, 10:33:32 AM
MU Scoop has been online for a decade, and three things are certain: We haven't won ten national championships in that stretch, there are people who complain, and people who complain about the complainers.
Don't care about the complainers. I care about the attacks on 20 year old student athletes. If I knew the poster was a young twenty something themself I could let it slide but we know more than a few are old enough to know better.
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 12:09:25 PM
Bingo
And 2 of Wojos current players transfer and 2 of the 3 in his next recruiting class back out as well. Not much of a long term plan now is it?
Umm, who's backing out of a Wojo class?
Quote from: scout on January 08, 2017, 04:54:53 PM
Just started following Marquette Basketball. Can't understand uproar over this years team. You have some nice players that are fun to watch. If you were in the A10 you would be a powerhouse. The Big East is extremely competitive this year. You have a nice group of guards and forwards who are just a notch below the big east big boys. To me, you have a real fun team to watch Villanova, Butler and Creighton have too much right now. Great win over Gtown. Hang in there. having 2 guards around 5:10 who are that good---fun along with your 6.5 type perimeter players. They are all nice players. Enjoy them.
Well, I have to stipulate that I've been spoiled. As an elder citizen I had the good fortune to experience the McGuire years. So my expectations are obviously different from yours. I understand the need to develop the program, recruit better players and the time that it takes. But I'm getting damned tired of being told that we are going to be better in the future while we boot games we should have won (Seton Hall). If I wanted to wait 50 years or more for us to be an elite team I'd have been a cubs fan.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 09, 2017, 07:26:20 AM
Who said we can't have high expectations?
Not at all true.
What, so everyone should always be winners and always get a trophy? Give me a break. And how will your anger, frustration, and crying after a loss change anything?
Attendance is down across college basketball and sports in general.
If our program added two wins per year starting now, that would make us a perennial 30-win team in 5 years. Is that small-time thinking?
Okay, here's where you are really off base. Marquette is, first and foremost, a university. Its responsibility is to grow and shape young minds, to educate, and to turn out quality individuals. This is done by embracing the Cura Personalis mindset. I think we all want MU to win at the highest level, I think we all want to see our program at the level of Villanova, but if you sacrifice your ideals to get there, what's it really worth? Cheating to win, taking the low road, there's more to life than W's and L's. I don't want a program that gets there like that.
And again, no one is saying this. You're just making crap up. We all want to win. Some of us also care that we do in a way that makes us proud of Marquette as a University, not just as an athletic team.
I have addressed that numerous times. Would you be happy to have Villanova's program? Would that put a smile on your face and a boner in your pants? To be defending national champs, ranked in the top-5, and whooping darn near everyone you play? It took Jay Wright 4 years to make the tournament and 16 years to win a title. Yes, you can quick fix your way to the NCAAs, but I don't think anyone at Marquette wants to build a program that has the goal of getting to the tournament. They want a program that can sustain itself over the years and have the potential to make deep NCAA runs and challenge for titles. As of yesterday, no teams in the top-10 had a coach with fewer than 4 years current job tenure (Alford at UCLA, but has 22 years experience).
Well yeah, when you dismiss all the big wins, it's easy to say he doesn't have any big wins. He has 5 wins over NCAA Tournament teams.
We have a top-20 in the country offense, yet he isn't playing to his player's strengths? This year's offense has a higher efficiency rating than Buzz ever had here. So your claim is completely, patently false. The defense isn't there, but our best defenders are freshmen and sophomores, and defense corrolates with length, which we have none of (but will have next year).
At the end of the day, the simple truth is that you are going to cry and whine every time we lose like it's your last night on earth. Anything less than a national title every single year will be a complete, abject failure. It's a sad state of affairs, and completely bewilders me that you are over the age of 4 with that type of mindset. Losing is a part of life. It builds character. And it makes the winning all the more sweet. Hell, even Villanova lost this past week.
Right now, we are 10-5 (so we're winning more than losing) after a 20-win season. Grow up. Grow a pair. Of course, you won't. You'll just wait until the next loss and toss all your toys out of the crib just like you do every time we lose.
Okay first of all, I am not an alum, I am a season ticket holder for 14 years and donate to the B & G fund. So from that perspective, to be quite honest, I don't care what kind of students they are, what kind of image they might have, or how the university might look. I get where alums might, but me personally, having no ties to MU other than the BB program, I care about 1 thing...winning basketball games, period. Now of course I don't want them to do it by breaking NCAA rules, but if they bring in kids that might have a bit of questionable character..as long as they are helping win games, it really makes no difference to me. None.
That's the problem with the younger generation now days...they are way to soft. It's all about how you play the game "did the kids have fun", did they give their all"?? I've said it for a long time now, basically in reference to the UW rivalry, but it applies all over...MU fans are way too soft as a whole. "oh well, they lost, but they tried hard and were right there". Great! A loss is a loss is a loss. You play to win the game, and I say it again, anyone that is okay with a loss even to the #1 team, has no competitive bones in their body. Really, after the sustained success Buzz had here, this is what the programs fans mindset has become?? They expect to lose?? You NEVER expect to lose, EVER...At anything. That's small minded.
Okay now we get to the "he's laying the foundation" part...great, but does anyone stop to think, what if 3-4 years from now, MU still isn't going to the NCAA's?? Then what?? That's why winning, and winning now is so important, the future is never guaranteed. That's why there's the instant gratification part. Winning cures everything.
Finally, I will guarantee you NONE of you put up with the sh*t on a daily basis that I do from badger fans that just LOVE sticking it in my face how successful their program has been and how MU sucks. Sadly, I have no comebacks, because they are right. Maybe it shouldn't be a big deal, but trust me when I tell you...the folks I hear it from(almost hourly), want nothing more than to see MU fail, and fail miserably, and take great joy in their demise. NO ONE takes the harassment I do, at least not in this kind of way, a small chiding type of way sure..but these are vicious attacks, that don't quit. It gets tiring.
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 12:09:25 PM
Bingo
And 2 of Wojos current players transfer and 2 of the 3 in his next recruiting class back out as well. Not much of a long term plan now is it?
Oh right. Well he kept Cohen cause he had to... but you would have played that season without Cohen probably right?
And traci left because he was a frosh starter and now he was the 3rd option. But if it was you or your son you'd say "I love you Mini let's go warrior... but you're 3rd best behind a frosh and a junior. Sit the bench and you might start again in Europe." (I doubt that).
OR maybe if you were Wojo, since you seem to know a lot about recruiting and why players leave... you would have told Markus Howard "sorry dude... we have traci Carter who is a great guy, sooo he's gonna start until he graduates cause we don't want him to transfer."
You nailed it buddy. You certainly understand a young
Mindset. I bet you also stay at a job when they hire people younger than you and pay them better for the same position when there are plenty of other options for you.
Quote from: mu03eng on January 09, 2017, 12:18:15 PM
Umm, who's backing out of a Wojo class?
Im talking the scenario you laid out above. Grabbing Wardle after Wojo would leave. Upon Wojo leaving MU would likely be in rebuild all over again.
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 12:33:43 PM
Im talking the scenario you laid out above. Grabbing Wardle after Wojo would leave. Upon Wojo leaving MU would likely be in rebuild all over again.
Oh. I think I missed that point.
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 12:33:43 PM
Im talking the scenario you laid out above. Grabbing Wardle after Wojo would leave. Upon Wojo leaving MU would likely be in rebuild all over again.
Yes, but if Wojo leaves because he's been successful we aren't rebuilding nearly as much as Wojo had to rebuild after Buzz. Post-Buzz was a pretty unique transition for a number of reasons that have been documented. If Wojo is leaving because he's been successful we are "rebuilding" from a much more stable place.
If you are assuming that we're rebuilding from a bad place because Wojo is bad....well that just means we lost the bet that Wojo would be a better coach than Wardle. Quite frankly, I will take that bet every time based on their respective bodies of work.
Quote from: mu03eng on January 09, 2017, 12:42:02 PM
Yes, but if Wojo leaves because he's been successful we aren't rebuilding nearly as much as Wojo had to rebuild after Buzz. Post-Buzz was a pretty unique transition for a number of reasons that have been documented. If Wojo is leaving because he's been successful we are "rebuilding" from a much more stable place.
If you are assuming that we're rebuilding from a bad place because Wojo is bad....well that just means we lost the bet that Wojo would be a better coach than Wardle. Quite frankly, I will take that bet every time based on their respective bodies of work.
Unfortunately you have no way to quantify that:
How many players transfer because Wojo leaves?
How many recruits back out?
How many if any coaches stay?
How many seniors are on the roster that year?
Im not saying you are "wrong". Im just saying those of you who are pointing to this long term plan really have nothing to base that on at this point.
Im interested in Wojos HC track record that I seem to be missing other than MU?
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 12:48:53 PM
Unfortunately you have no way to quantify that:
How many players transfer because Wojo leaves?
How many recruits back out?
How many if any coaches stay?
How many seniors are on the roster that year?
Im not saying you are "wrong". Im just saying those of you who are pointing to this long term plan really have nothing to base that on at this point.
Im interested in Wojos HC track record that I seem to be missing other than MU?
So your argument against the Wojo was a better option than Wardle is that we can't know what condition Wojo leaves the program in...and we can "know" what condition Wardle would have the program in at this point????
None of this is "knowable" which is why we argue about it on a message board. I'm simply taking a position based on probability of where Wojo would have the program versus Wardle would have the program...that probability is based on their existing work product.
And yes Wojo didn't have direct HC experience as compared to Wardle but Wojo also had a lot more experience at multiple levels including the international level that Wardle doesn't. You're right, Wardle had the edge on Wojo at the executive role of being a HC, but Wojo (IMO) more than made up for that with experience at all levels of basketball and with far more extensive recruiting network than Wardle.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 12:23:18 PM
Okay first of all, I am not an alum, I am a season ticket holder for 14 years and donate to the B & G fund. So from that perspective, to be quite honest, I don't care what kind of students they are, what kind of image they might have, or how the university might look. I get where alums might, but me personally, having no ties to MU other than the BB program, I care about 1 thing...winning basketball games, period. Now of course I don't want them to do it by breaking NCAA rules, but if they bring in kids that might have a bit of questionable character..as long as they are helping win games, it really makes no difference to me. None.
That's the problem with the younger generation now days...they are way to soft. It's all about how you play the game "did the kids have fun", did they give their all"?? I've said it for a long time now, basically in reference to the UW rivalry, but it applies all over...MU fans are way too soft as a whole. "oh well, they lost, but they tried hard and were right there". Great! A loss is a loss is a loss. You play to win the game, and I say it again, anyone that is okay with a loss even to the #1 team, has no competitive bones in their body. Really, after the sustained success Buzz had here, this is what the programs fans mindset has become?? They expect to lose?? You NEVER expect to lose, EVER...At anything. That's small minded.
Okay now we get to the "he's laying the foundation" part...great, but does anyone stop to think, what if 3-4 years from now, MU still isn't going to the NCAA's?? Then what?? That's why winning, and winning now is so important, the future is never guaranteed. That's why there's the instant gratification part. Winning cures everything.
Finally, I will guarantee you NONE of you put up with the sh*t on a daily basis that I do from badger fans that just LOVE sticking it in my face how successful their program has been and how MU sucks. Sadly, I have no comebacks, because they are right. Maybe it shouldn't be a big deal, but trust me when I tell you...the folks I hear it from(almost hourly), want nothing more than to see MU fail, and fail miserably, and take great joy in their demise. NO ONE takes the harassment I do, at least not in this kind of way, a small chiding type of way sure..but these are vicious attacks, that don't quit. It gets tiring.
Seconded. You are so very right.
First things first. Let's get MU basketball back to where it should be: competing for Big East championships, earning NCAA bids, and giving fans lots to cheer for in March.
How long Wojo might stay assuming that happens, or what the consequences could be for the program, is pure conjecture at this point.
Quote from: Marcus92 on January 09, 2017, 01:02:27 PM
First things first. Let's get MU basketball back to where it should be: competing for Big East championships, earning NCAA bids, and giving fans lots to cheer for in March.
How long Wojo might stay assuming that happens, or what the consequences could be for the program, is pure conjecture at this point.
I completely agree. But lets also not pretend there is some grand 15 year plan in the works.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 12:23:18 PM
Finally, I will guarantee you NONE of you put up with the sh*t on a daily basis that I do from badger fans that just LOVE sticking it in my face how successful their program has been and how MU sucks. Sadly, I have no comebacks, because they are right. Maybe it shouldn't be a big deal, but trust me when I tell you...the folks I hear it from(almost hourly), want nothing more than to see MU fail, and fail miserably, and take great joy in their demise. NO ONE takes the harassment I do, at least not in this kind of way, a small chiding type of way sure..but these are vicious attacks, that don't quit. It gets tiring.
You guarantee? What makes you think your situation is so special? ::)
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 01:04:15 PM
I completely agree. But lets also not pretend there is some grand 15 year plan in the works.
Marquette hasn't had a coach stay for 15+ years since Bill Chandler (1930-51). McGuire was only here for 13 seasons. In recent history, Crean had the longest tenure at 9 years. Buzz left after his sixth season.
I'd love to see Wojo establish a 15-year record of success. But this is only Year 3. Let's worry about the rest of the 2016-17 conference schedule and Big East tournament first.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 09, 2017, 11:00:25 AM
We could have hired Wardle but his teams tend to sh*t the bed.
Well...I laughed.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 12:23:18 PM
Okay first of all, I am not an alum, I am a season ticket holder for 14 years and donate to the B & G fund. So from that perspective, to be quite honest, I don't care what kind of students they are, what kind of image they might have, or how the university might look. I get where alums might, but me personally, having no ties to MU other than the BB program, I care about 1 thing...winning basketball games, period. Now of course I don't want them to do it by breaking NCAA rules, but if they bring in kids that might have a bit of questionable character..as long as they are helping win games, it really makes no difference to me. None.
That's the problem with the younger generation now days...they are way to soft. It's all about how you play the game "did the kids have fun", did they give their all"?? I've said it for a long time now, basically in reference to the UW rivalry, but it applies all over...MU fans are way too soft as a whole. "oh well, they lost, but they tried hard and were right there". Great! A loss is a loss is a loss. You play to win the game, and I say it again, anyone that is okay with a loss even to the #1 team, has no competitive bones in their body. Really, after the sustained success Buzz had here, this is what the programs fans mindset has become?? They expect to lose?? You NEVER expect to lose, EVER...At anything. That's small minded.
Okay now we get to the "he's laying the foundation" part...great, but does anyone stop to think, what if 3-4 years from now, MU still isn't going to the NCAA's?? Then what?? That's why winning, and winning now is so important, the future is never guaranteed. That's why there's the instant gratification part. Winning cures everything.
Finally, I will guarantee you NONE of you put up with the sh*t on a daily basis that I do from badger fans that just LOVE sticking it in my face how successful their program has been and how MU sucks. Sadly, I have no comebacks, because they are right. Maybe it shouldn't be a big deal, but trust me when I tell you...the folks I hear it from(almost hourly), want nothing more than to see MU fail, and fail miserably, and take great joy in their demise. NO ONE takes the harassment I do, at least not in this kind of way, a small chiding type of way sure..but these are vicious attacks, that don't quit. It gets tiring.
If I close my eyes, I can almost picture this post being read by Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men."
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 12:23:18 PM
Okay now we get to the "he's laying the foundation" part...great, but does anyone stop to think, what if 3-4 years from now, MU still isn't going to the NCAA's?? Then what?? That's why winning, and winning now is so important, the future is never guaranteed. That's why there's the instant gratification part. Winning cures everything.
Finally, I will guarantee you NONE of you put up with the sh*t on a daily basis that I do from badger fans that just LOVE sticking it in my face how successful their program has been and how MU sucks. Sadly, I have no comebacks, because they are right. Maybe it shouldn't be a big deal, but trust me when I tell you...the folks I hear it from(almost hourly), want nothing more than to see MU fail, and fail miserably, and take great joy in their demise. NO ONE takes the harassment I do, at least not in this kind of way, a small chiding type of way sure..but these are vicious attacks, that don't quit. It gets tiring.
Well gee, what if we finally get a national championship caliber team in 2019 and SMOD shows up keeping us from enjoying it???
If you can find me a guaranteed option that returns us to winning all the time and being better than Wisconsin continuously I'll take it. Otherwise I'm going to ride with Wojo until he proves he isn't the answer. Because the answer definitely isn't pushing the reset again after 3 years just when it looks like we can return to relevancy if not this year than next year.
(https://i1.wp.com/www.xenosystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/SMOD00.jpg)
Poll:
Does Marquette win another national championship before the sun enlarges into a red giant and consumes the earth?
I say yes.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 09, 2017, 11:00:25 AM
We could have hired Wardle but his teams tend to sh*t the bed.
Unlike ours, right?
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 09, 2017, 01:04:15 PM
I completely agree. But lets also not pretend there is some grand 15 year plan in the works.
How do you know? We need to see wojo's PowerPoint from when he interviewed that bowled the selector over. Then we would know the plan. Because right now, we do not see much of a plan. Maybe a mission statement.
Typically, after a bad loss, I don't even look at Scoop for a few days because I don't like skimming through 6+ page threads that turn out to be more about reactions to the loss than about the actual loss itself. And then I feel like I want to say something in response to something that was mentioned on page 1, but then I don't because I'm too lazy to read the other five pages which, for all I know, has already turned into a fishing discussion.
But that's what I've had to do here. F it all.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 12:23:18 PM
That's the problem with the younger generation now days...they are way to soft. It's all about how you play the game "did the kids have fun", did they give their all"?? I've said it for a long time now, basically in reference to the UW rivalry, but it applies all over...MU fans are way too soft as a whole. "oh well, they lost, but they tried hard and were right there". Great! A loss is a loss is a loss. You play to win the game, and I say it again, anyone that is okay with a loss even to the #1 team, has no competitive bones in their body. Really, after the sustained success Buzz had here, this is what the programs fans mindset has become?? They expect to lose?? You NEVER expect to lose, EVER...At anything. That's small minded.
This paragraph reeks of arrogance. I'm sure you remember your life being absurdly tough and each game was life or death whereas now everybody gets trophies but in actuality it's far from it though I'm sure your HS team and bar soft ball teams were absurdly competitive, the likes of which don't exist today.
Jeeze I must've been concussed for all matches I lost but still was given trophies because I certainly don't remember getting any and I'm part of that young generation you hate so much.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 09, 2017, 04:37:39 PM
This paragraph reeks of arrogance. I'm sure you remember your life being absurdly tough and each game was life or death whereas now everybody gets trophies but in actuality it's far from it though I'm sure your HS team and bar soft ball teams were absurdly competitive, the likes of which don't exist today.
Jeeze I must've been concussed for all matches I lost but still was given trophies because I certainly don't remember getting any and I'm part of that young generation you hate so much.
Heck, there are Little Leagues everywhere now that don't even keep score...Because "that's not what it's about". That makes me want to puke. The younger generation really doesn't care AS MUCH about winning as we did. I see that everywhere I go. It's more about having fun to them. If they lose, they lose, oh well. I see/know of people that all the time let their wife win a game of horse, or Monopoly or something...That's disgraceful to me. I let no one win at anything...ever. If I lose fine, but I am sure as hell not going to be happy about it. That's competitiveness. I just sense that for most MU fans, it's the "if they win, they win, if they don't oh well" mentality. And they are content with where the program is at...that's a losers mentality. A program like MU should NEVER(at least now days) go three consecutive years with no postseason, heck, they shouldn't be going 3 consecutive years without making the NCAA's. But most of you just shrug it off and say "Wojo is building it his way, wait for 3 years from now". In 3 more years, what if we are saying..."wait three years from now". There are no guarantees that what Wojo is building will EVER sustain continued success, yet so many of you seem to think it's a certainty. Bullshit. You win now as much as you can, and worry about next year or the year after when they get here...Long term visions are great if you have guarantees that it will work out. I mean, what if our employers all told us..Well, we have had a rough last three years, but don't worry, three years from now, we will start paying you again. Would that be acceptable to you??
As the great Vince Lombardi said "Show me a good loser, and I will show you a loser". Amen to that Vince.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:02:54 PM
Heck, there are Little Leagues everywhere now that don't even keep score...Because "that's not what it's about". That makes me want to puke. The younger generation really doesn't care AS MUCH about winning as we did. I see that everywhere I go. It's more about having fun to them. If they lose, they lose, oh well. I see/know of people that all the time let their wife win a game of horse, or Monopoly or something...That's disgraceful to me. I let no one win at anything...ever. If I lose fine, but I am sure as hell not going to be happy about it. That's competitiveness. I just sense that for most MU fans, it's the "if they win, they win, if they don't oh well" mentality. And they are content with where the program is at...that's a losers mentality. A program like MU should NEVER(at least now days) go three consecutive years with no postseason, heck, they shouldn't be going 3 consecutive years without making the NCAA's. But most of you just shrug it off and say "Wojo is building it his way, wait for 3 years from now". In 3 more years, what if we are saying..."wait three years from now". There are no guarantees that what Wojo is building will EVER sustain continued success, yet so many of you seem to think it's a certainty. Bullcrap. You win now as much as you can, and worry about next year or the year after when they get here...Long term visions are great if you have guarantees that it will work out. I mean, what if our employers all told us..Well, we have had a rough last three years, but don't worry, three years from now, we will start paying you again. Would that be acceptable to you??
As the great Vince Lombardi said "Show me a good loser, and I will show you a loser". Amen to that Vince.
Well said. Vince also said that "Winning is the only thing. Finishing second is for losers."
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on January 09, 2017, 01:54:23 PMDoes Marquette win another national championship before the sun enlarges into a red giant and consumes the earth?
If Villanova can do it, so can Marquette. We've got a great arena, facilities, university and alumni support. I think we have the makings of a great team and coaching staff.
If not Wojo, we have approximately 5 billion years to find another great coach.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:02:54 PM
Heck, there are Little Leagues everywhere now that don't even keep score...Because "that's not what it's about". That makes me want to puke. The younger generation really doesn't care AS MUCH about winning as we did. I see that everywhere I go. It's more about having fun to them. If they lose, they lose, oh well. I see/know of people that all the time let their wife win a game of horse, or Monopoly or something...That's disgraceful to me. I let no one win at anything...ever. If I lose fine, but I am sure as hell not going to be happy about it. That's competitiveness. I just sense that for most MU fans, it's the "if they win, they win, if they don't oh well" mentality. And they are content with where the program is at...that's a losers mentality. A program like MU should NEVER(at least now days) go three consecutive years with no postseason, heck, they shouldn't be going 3 consecutive years without making the NCAA's. But most of you just shrug it off and say "Wojo is building it his way, wait for 3 years from now". In 3 more years, what if we are saying..."wait three years from now". There are no guarantees that what Wojo is building will EVER sustain continued success, yet so many of you seem to think it's a certainty. Bullcrap. You win now as much as you can, and worry about next year or the year after when they get here...Long term visions are great if you have guarantees that it will work out. I mean, what if our employers all told us..Well, we have had a rough last three years, but don't worry, three years from now, we will start paying you again. Would that be acceptable to you??
As the great Vince Lombardi said "Show me a good loser, and I will show you a loser". Amen to that Vince.
You seem like the Jock's dad in the breakfast club. Someone who's conviced they're the world's best athlete and needs to "win" at all costs. Did you kids tape Larry's buttcheeks together?
But more seriously there's being competitive, I'm competitive and have two of 6 golden gloves championships to show for it. But then there's irrationally competitive, that would have been me going into that first one when I'd just started boxing and expecting to wipe the floor with everyone or my last one fighting on a injured knee expecting to win... that's how you come off...irrational
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 09, 2017, 05:34:46 PM
You seem like the Jock's dad in the breakfast club. Someone who's conviced they're the world's best athlete and needs to "win" at all costs. Did you kids tape Larry's buttcheeks together?
But more seriously there's being competitive, I'm competitive and have two of 6 golden gloves championships to show for it. But then there's irrationally competitive, that would have been me going into that first one when I'd just started boxing and expecting to wipe the floor with everyone or my last one fighting on a injured knee expecting to win... that's how you come off...irrational
No, you didn't have to be thinking you were going to wipe the floor with with everyone, but if you went into your first match EXPECTING to lose...that would be the definition of irrationally competitive. No competitor, or serious competitor that i have ever been around, EXPECTS to lose, and when they do, they don't get over it in a few hours(or less). Losing should sting, it should hurt like hell, and it shouldn't take just a few hours to move past it. MU fans have just become way to passive. No competitiveness in them. When I hear "What did you expect when we were playing the #1 team in the country, no one expected us to win". That's a defeatist attitude and reeks of small time basketball. Now if you are Morgan State and playing North Carolina, yeah, you can think that way. It's so sad how meteoric MU's fall has been, how completely irrelevant in the college BB landscape they have become, when 4 years ago, it was completely different. What's even worse is how many MU fans have accepted it, shrug their shoulders and simply say "it happens".
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:58:44 AM
As one of the more vocal posters around I feel like I should chime in here. What bothers me more than anything is people thinking we can't have high expectations. Why the hell shouldn't we?? It also bothers me to no end the people that are content with where the program is right now. That tells me those people never played sports, or if they did, just did it for fun, and have NO level of competitiveness whatsoever. That just baffles me. Every fan, should NOT be okay with a loss, ever. Yes, they happen, I get that, but to just "accept it" shrug your shoulders and instantly move on?? I will NEVER understand that thinking. Ever. Whether you voice your frustrations here, or do it privately, you SHOULD be angry, you should be frustrated, you should be wondering if this program will ever achieve the levels it was at not that long ago.
You can say it's "entitled cry babies" all you want, but look at attendance, it has dropped off substantially. Students aren't showing up, and if progress is measured by adding a few more wins year to year...well that's just small time thinking. is that really what the Marquette program has become?? Where winning isn't that important?? As long as we have a nice program, graduate the kids and have a good public image, we are satisfied?? That's a pathetic way of thinking. Whether any of us want to admit it or not, College basketball is a business, it's about the bottom line. That bottom line isn't achieved, people get fired. Those that think it's "okay" that there has been no postseason whatsoever the last 3 years(nevermind no NCAA bids), should go root for Duhpaul. You'll get plenty of no postseason there.
I get Buzz stripped the roster when he left, but so what?? Programs have turned worse around quicker. My biggest problem right now is with Wojo as a Coach..how many truly big wins has he had in 3 years?? Okay he beat UW last year when they were at their worst, and Providence last year when they were ranked...big f'n deal. Bottom line under Wojo, they have not had truly any big wins of signifcance in 3 years(a lot of times, those happen just by accident), and he has NO idea apparently how to hide his players deficiencies or play to his player's strengths. Buzz was VERY good at that. he could hide weaknesses, and he would exploit other teams weaknesses. I like Wojo's recruiting, but that has to equate to W's...and they just haven't been there, that's a problem, and should be a problem for EVERYONE, but apparently it's not.
Agreed 100%. All involved - players, coaches, admin, fan base - need to have a sense of urgency to get this turned around. I could not believe many of the posts leading up to the Nova game. I'm not sure why MU even showed up for the game. So many excuses why MU cannot be competitive in a league game. Thats bull.
I expect more out of this program. I get it blow outs happen. But it happens all too frequently under the Wojo tenure. Combine the lack of competitiveness against the top end of the big east with the lack of any post season to speak of and we are becoming irrelevant. And that frustrates the hell out of me.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:02:54 PM
Heck, there are Little Leagues everywhere now that don't even keep score...Because "that's not what it's about". That makes me want to puke. The younger generation really doesn't care AS MUCH about winning as we did. I see that everywhere I go. It's more about having fun to them. If they lose, they lose, oh well. I see/know of people that all the time let their wife win a game of horse, or Monopoly or something...That's disgraceful to me. I let no one win at anything...ever. If I lose fine, but I am sure as hell not going to be happy about it. That's competitiveness. I just sense that for most MU fans, it's the "if they win, they win, if they don't oh well" mentality. And they are content with where the program is at...that's a losers mentality. A program like MU should NEVER(at least now days) go three consecutive years with no postseason, heck, they shouldn't be going 3 consecutive years without making the NCAA's. But most of you just shrug it off and say "Wojo is building it his way, wait for 3 years from now". In 3 more years, what if we are saying..."wait three years from now". There are no guarantees that what Wojo is building will EVER sustain continued success, yet so many of you seem to think it's a certainty. Bullcrap. You win now as much as you can, and worry about next year or the year after when they get here...Long term visions are great if you have guarantees that it will work out. I mean, what if our employers all told us..Well, we have had a rough last three years, but don't worry, three years from now, we will start paying you again. Would that be acceptable to you??
As the great Vince Lombardi said "Show me a good loser, and I will show you a loser". Amen to that Vince.
Considering that's what's been happening in the economy over the last decade...
There's a difference between the mindset of a player and a fan. Players absolutely should go into every game expecting to win. Their mindset actually could affect the outcome of the game. Fans don't have the same power. We have the luxury to objectively look at a matchup and say "I think we have a chance, but we're probably going to lose" without it having any effect on the outcome. I'm just as disappointed in the loss. Does that make me a loser?
Quote from: Warriors88 on January 09, 2017, 06:13:15 PM
Agreed 100%. All involved - players, coaches, admin, fan base - need to have a sense of urgency to get this turned around. I could not believe many of the posts leading up to the Nova game. I'm not sure why MU even showed up for the game. So many excuses why MU cannot be competitive in a league game. Thats bull.
I expect more out of this program. I get it blow outs happen. But it happens all too frequently under the Wojo tenure. Combine the lack of competitiveness against the top end of the big east with the lack of any post season to speak of and we are becoming irrelevant. And that frustrates the hell out of me.
Thank you Warriors! perfectly stated. I just don't get why the direction of the program, or maybe more aptly the current state of the program, doesn't bother more fans etc. It sure as hell should..They will all just say "what did you expect during a rebuild". That's the problem, MU should have never had to rebuild...miss the tourney for a year okay, i get that, it happens, but no postseason in three years?? Something that has happened what only one other time in the HISTORY of MU's program, and NO ONE, not Wojo, not the admin, not the fans, not a single one feels a sense of urgency?? That's baffling to me. And don't give me this BS that "of course they would like it to go faster", if that were true, they would be doing things differently.
This isn't Saint Louis U, or some mid major program, that can have fleeting success, and than back to irrelevancy for a number of years. MU is and should be above that. It amazes me, that MU was super competitive in the best conference ever assembled, yet in the reconfigured BE they can't even finish top half..."cue the "coaching changes will do that" crowd. The point is, coaching changes don't HAVE to do that...there are quick fixes, and the fact that that hasn't happened is extremely concerning when Mens BB is the face of Marquette University, and the top money maker.
Again in 3 years under Wojo there has not been one good win, and the ones brewcity cites earlier in the thread are not considered "good wins". They are wins that a school like Savannah State should be ecstatic to have, at Marquette, they should be expected. But the simple fact that the last 3 years, they are considered GOOD WINS FOR MU...that's a problem. A good win to me would be going into Nova and winning, winning at Creighton, a win that has some relevance, or a win that puts them over the top for an NCAA bid...none of those wins that MU has had in 3 years has meant squat during that particular season.
The fact that Wojo called his own team "uncompetitive" should be VERY concerning to every fan. That's the worst thing a Coach can call his team. That means there's a problem somewhere..yet no one wants to see it/acknowledge it.
Quote from: Warriors88 on January 09, 2017, 06:13:15 PM
Agreed 100%. All involved - players, coaches, admin, fan base - need to have a sense of urgency to get this turned around. I could not believe many of the posts leading up to the Nova game. I'm not sure why MU even showed up for the game. So many excuses why MU cannot be competitive in a league game. Thats bull.
I expect more out of this program. I get it blow outs happen. But it happens all too frequently under the Wojo tenure. Combine the lack of competitiveness against the top end of the big east with the lack of any post season to speak of and we are becoming irrelevant. And that frustrates the hell out of me.
Why do you think they don't have a "sense of urgency now?" How do you propose they move forward?
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 06:42:13 PM
Thank you Warriors! perfectly stated. I just don't get why the direction of the program, or maybe more aptly the current state of the program, doesn't bother more fans etc. It sure as hell should..They will all just say "what did you expect during a rebuild". That's the problem, MU should have never had to rebuild...miss the tourney for a year okay, i get that, it happens, but no postseason in three years?? Something that has happened what only one other time in the HISTORY of MU's program, and NO ONE, not Wojo, not the admin, not the fans, not a single one feels a sense of urgency?? That's baffling to me. And don't give me this BS that "of course they would like it to go faster", if that were true, they would be doing things differently.
This isn't Saint Louis U, or some mid major program, that can have fleeting success, and than back to irrelevancy for a number of years. MU is and should be above that. It amazes me, that MU was super competitive in the best conference ever assembled, yet in the reconfigured BE they can't even finish top half..."cue the "coaching changes will do that" crowd. The point is, coaching changes don't HAVE to do that...there are quick fixes, and the fact that that hasn't happened is extremely concerning when Mens BB is the face of Marquette University, and the top money maker.
Again in 3 years under Wojo there has not been one good win, and the ones brewcity cites earlier in the thread are not considered "good wins". They are wins that a school like Savannah State should be ecstatic to have, at Marquette, they should be expected. But the simple fact that the last 3 years, they are considered GOOD WINS FOR MU...that's a problem. A good win to me would be going into Nova and winning, winning at Creighton, a win that has some relevance, or a win that puts them over the top for an NCAA bid...none of those wins that MU has had in 3 years has meant squat during that particular season.
The fact that Wojo called his own team "uncompetitive" should be VERY concerning to every fan. That's the worst thing a Coach can call his team. That means there's a problem somewhere..yet no one wants to see it/acknowledge it.
Winning at Creighton would be a good win, but winning at top 10 Providence was not a good win?
Question, what do you think MU could have done differently after Buzz left to get the roster that was leftover to the NCAAs after 1 year out?
Clearly if fans on message boards were more outraged after each loss then every school in every major conference would be in the top 25 every year.
If fans recognize challenges and try to be patient and support the program win or lose they are LOSERS!
Got it.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 09, 2017, 06:52:38 PM
Winning at Creighton would be a good win, but winning at top 10 Providence was not a good win?
Question, what do you think MU could have done differently after Buzz left to get the roster that was leftover to the NCAAs after 1 year out?
I give him a pass for the first year...but the 2nd year with an all american, can't give him a pass for that.. Obviously there is no way of saying for certain, but I feel confident in saying Buzz and a handful of other coaches would have had that team in the NCAAs, or close to it, and if they would have just missed, they sure as hell would have been in the NIT.
Quote from: MuMark on January 09, 2017, 06:57:35 PM
Clearly if fans on message boards were more outraged after each loss then every school in every major conference would be in the top 25 every year.
If fans recognize challenges and try to be patient and support the program win or lose they are LOSERS!
Got it.
I figured you'd chime in eventually. Given you are head of the "non competitive" group. You are always, always always ,trying to make excuses for why things have gone wrong for this program the last three years or wait you see them as "challenges". that's just a cute way of making an excuse. So tell me mark, being one of the top Wojo supporters around, what exactly have you seen from him as a Head Coach that gives you confidence he will restore this program to it's rightful place?? Oh I know..."just be patient, it will pay off in a few years". You sure about that?? Oh I know..."wait until Wojo gets all his own players". Yeah, and?? Does that guarantee success in 3 years like everyone seems to think?? What if we are having this same discussion 3 years from now?? That's living a fairy tale...waiting on something that may never happen. To each their own I guess.
You're still whining and entitled. Yes or no, fire wojo if he fails to make the postseason. If your answer is yes, you are likely signing up for another 3-4 years of frustration after the inevitable transfers and defections. So, your solution, please.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 09, 2017, 06:52:38 PM
Winning at Creighton would be a good win, but winning at top 10 Providence was not a good win?
Question, what do you think MU could have done differently after Buzz left to get the roster that was leftover to the NCAAs after 1 year out?
And how did winning at #10 Providence work out for them?? Did it propel them into the NCAAs?? or did it even help them get in the NIT?? A big win is a "signature win" a program changing win, a win that propels a team into the NCaa's.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 07:47:37 PM
And how did winning at #10 Providence work out for them?? Did it propel them into the NCAAs?? or did it even help them get in the NIT?? A big win is a "signature win" a program changing win, a win that propels a team into the NCaa's.
So if MU wins at Creighton this season, but doesn't make the NCAAs, is that a big win?
Quote from: tower912 on January 09, 2017, 07:45:12 PM
You're still whining and entitled. Yes or no, fire wojo if he fails to make the postseason. If your answer is yes, you are likely signing up for another 3-4 years of frustration after the inevitable transfers and defections. So, your solution, please.
It's already water under the bridge, but I would have gone with the "quick fix" option. As i have said, numerous times, there are no guarantees for the future...when you have a chance to win, you do it NOW because it may not happen for awhile again. Now, I will say..I do love having a team that can shoot like this MU team can, and I believe they have the talent to get in the NCAA's(but i also though that last year). My BIGGEST problem is the lack of creativity as a Coach Wojo shows, and the fact that he apparently has no clue how to hide players deficiencies. That's a problem. He talks all the time about him needing to do a better job of putting the team in the best position to win...and yet, he rarely makes great in game adjustments, he will not switch things up if something isn't working, and has NO idea, absolutely none how to hide players deficiencies. Someone said it in a different thread..Luke has had problems on defense since Wojo took over...yet Wojo seems to have no idea how to fix those issues, or at least hide them so they stop recurring time and time again.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 07:38:36 PM
I figured you'd chime in eventually. Given you are head of the "non competitive" group. You are always, always always ,trying to make excuses for why things have gone wrong for this program the last three years or wait you see them as "challenges". that's just a cute way of making an excuse. So tell me mark, being one of the top Wojo supporters around, what exactly have you seen from him as a Head Coach that gives you confidence he will restore this program to it's rightful place?? Oh I know..."just be patient, it will pay off in a few years". You sure about that?? Oh I know..."wait until Wojo gets all his own players". Yeah, and?? Does that guarantee success in 3 years like everyone seems to think?? What if we are having this same discussion 3 years from now?? That's living a fairy tale...waiting on something that may never happen. To each their own I guess.
I've seen an influx of young talent and a coach that is growing as a game manger. It's progress.
If we are having this same discussion in three years he should be gone.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 09, 2017, 07:58:14 PM
So if MU wins at Creighton this season, but doesn't make the NCAAs, is that a big win?
Nope, it's meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
Luke's issues can't be fixed at this point. He lacks lateral quickness. The 'quick fix' wasn't going to happen because the powers wanted the anti-Buzz. I'm not sold on Wojo yet. I see hope and I can see the plan, but I have not yet seen that he can do the alchemy/voodoo that makes a team better than the sum of its parts.
From my perspective, the options are this.
1. Complain about how MU land is entitled to better teams. Live life frustrated.
2. Hope Wojo pulls it together in the next couple years. Because if he can't, if he IS let go, there is going to be another 3-4 year wait before MU returns to national relevance and there still won't be any guarantees.
3. Root for MU with every fiber of my being, but not let my self-image rest on the team's success or failure.
4. Come to scoop for entertainment and occasional enlightenment.
Breathe deeply muguru. Do it again. Close your eyes and do it a third time. (Yoda voice) Let go of your anger, you must.
Quote from: tower912 on January 09, 2017, 07:45:12 PM
You're still whining and entitled. Yes or no, fire wojo if he fails to make the postseason. If your answer is yes, you are likely signing up for another 3-4 years of frustration after the inevitable transfers and defections. So, your solution, please.
Exactly. I'm not sure Wojo is the answer but firing him after this year means starting from scratch AGAIN.
Put me down for cautiously optimistic. Markus and Sam are really good. Hopefully Joey follows Sam. Cain and Bailey are intriguing. I'll give Wojo some time.
I'm also one of those fans that doesn't let the performance of my sports team determine my happiness. At least not since my infant son died four years ago. The Fail Mary game happened on my birthday while my son was at Children's Hospital of WI. I watched the game at the Ronald McDonald House. After the Packers lost, I turned off the TV, sighed, and went for a short walk.
So excuse me for being a "loser". I still celebrate every win but every loss my sports teams endure is shrugged off. Yes, I want the Packers to win the Super Bowl and Marquette to make the tournament this year. But I care much more about my wife, my 3 year old son, and my 2 month old daughter.
#Perspective
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:50:09 PM
No, you didn't have to be thinking you were going to wipe the floor with with everyone, but if you went into your first match EXPECTING to lose...that would be the definition of irrationally competitive. No competitor, or serious competitor that i have ever been around, EXPECTS to lose, and when they do, they don't get over it in a few hours(or less). Losing should sting, it should hurt like hell, and it shouldn't take just a few hours to move past it. MU fans have just become way to passive. No competitiveness in them. When I hear "What did you expect when we were playing the #1 team in the country, no one expected us to win". That's a defeatist attitude and reeks of small time basketball. Now if you are Morgan State and playing North Carolina, yeah, you can think that way. It's so sad how meteoric MU's fall has been, how completely irrelevant in the college BB landscape they have become, when 4 years ago, it was completely different. What's even worse is how many MU fans have accepted it, shrug their shoulders and simply say "it happens".
Ok so I'm confused here. Are you upset because we as fans are not being competitive enough? You're right us fans need to get our act together and get more fired up for game day, especially road games because that's when us watching at the bar or on our TVs really make a difference! Listen, when I was a student I was all on your side saying the other students in the section or the alumni needed to be louder and get more into the game but you acting as though getting fired up about things that are out of our control is basically telling everyone you want them to be miserable.
As far as the boxing thing I think you're missing the point that I'm making stating you're very misguided about younger generations, yes little league does participation trophies but you should probably step back and realize not everyone plays little league, hell my other sport was lacrosse and unless you consider a lax pinny a participation trophy then there was absolutely none of that either.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 08:01:17 PM
Nope, it's meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
Hmm...
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 06:42:13 PM
Again in 3 years under Wojo there has not been one good win, and the ones brewcity cites earlier in the thread are not considered "good wins". They are wins that a school like Savannah State should be ecstatic to have, at Marquette, they should be expected. But the simple fact that the last 3 years, they are considered GOOD WINS FOR MU...that's a problem. A good win to me would be going into Nova and winning, winning at Creighton, a win that has some relevance, or a win that puts them over the top for an NCAA bid...none of those wins that MU has had in 3 years has meant squat during that particular season.
I'm very confused by your definition of a good/big win. You seem to be minimizing any wins MU has had in the last few years. It appears the only time a win would be big/good is one that gets us into the NCAAs... but a single win would never do that (unless it's a BET championship game)
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on January 09, 2017, 08:11:35 PM
Exactly. I'm not sure Wojo is the answer but firing him after this year means starting from scratch AGAIN.
Put me down for cautiously optimistic. Markus and Sam are really good. Hopefully Joey follows Sam. Cain and Bailey are intriguing. I'll give Wojo some time.
I'm also one of those fans that doesn't let the performance of my sports team determine my happiness. At least not since my infant son died four years ago. The Fail Mary game happened on my birthday while my son was at Children's Hospital of WI. I watched the game at the Ronald McDonald House. After the Packers lost, I turned off the TV, sighed, and went for a short walk.
So excuse me for being a "loser". I still celebrate every win but every loss my sports teams endure is shrugged off. Yes, I want the Packers to win the Super Bowl and Marquette to make the tournament this year. But I care much more about my wife, my 3 year old son, and my 2 month old daughter.
#Perspective
I am truly sorry for your loss..and i can see why your perspective is completely different then mine. I don't begrudge you that. But honestly..I'd love to have an outlet like you do...a wife and two kids to care about so I didn't have to invest so much emotionally into MU basketball. I'd trade places with you or anyone in the same situation in a heartbeat.
Quote from: tower912 on January 09, 2017, 08:07:21 PM
Luke's issues can't be fixed at this point. He lacks lateral quickness. The 'quick fix' wasn't going to happen because the powers wanted the anti-Buzz. I'm not sold on Wojo yet. I see hope and I can see the plan, but I have not yet seen that he can do the alchemy/voodoo that makes a team better than the sum of its parts.
From my perspective, the options are this.
1. Complain about how MU land is entitled to better teams. Live life frustrated.
2. Hope Wojo pulls it together in the next couple years. Because if he can't, if he IS let go, there is going to be another 3-4 year wait before MU returns to national relevance and there still won't be any guarantees.
3. Root for MU with every fiber of my being, but not let my self-image rest on the team's success or failure.
4. Come to scoop for entertainment and occasional enlightenment.
Breathe deeply muguru. Do it again. Close your eyes and do it a third time. (Yoda voice) Let go of your anger, you must.
Agree on all points except "the quick fix wasn't going to happen because the powers that be wanted the anti Buzz". We've had three one year players in three years of Wojo and unsuccessfully went after a bunch more. We had one in six years under Buzz.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 09, 2017, 05:34:46 PM
You seem like the Jock's dad in the breakfast club. Someone who's conviced they're the world's best athlete and needs to "win" at all costs. Did you kids tape Larry's buttcheeks together?
But more seriously there's being competitive, I'm competitive and have two of 6 golden gloves championships to show for it. But then there's irrationally competitive, that would have been me going into that first one when I'd just started boxing and expecting to wipe the floor with everyone or my last one fighting on a injured knee expecting to win... that's how you come off...irrational
I was thinking more "Bull" Meechum, aka The Great Santini. Every generation that sees itself loosing influence and power to the next generation complains that their usurpers had it easier than they did (btw i'm 50). And every time that claim is based in arrogance or ignorance - the next few generations are going to do just as good and bad as the last few.
As far as MU basketball, and life, is concerned i don't think the ceiling is as high as most people see it and i don't think we are nearly as bad as most people see it. We're improving, it appears we're doing it the right way, and we're doing it in a way that could last. Do i want more? always. With things that are in my control i act on them in a rational way, with things out of my control, i.e. mubb, i'm objectively rational about my reaction.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 09, 2017, 08:19:33 PM
Hmm...
I'm very confused by your definition of a good/big win. You seem to be minimizing any wins MU has had in the last few years. It appears the only time a win would be big/good is one that gets us into the NCAAs... but a single win would never do that (unless it's a BET championship game)
The bottom line is, it's truly sad that we as MU fans have to even be thinking about how many wins it would take to get into the NCAA's or if they can squeeze in. I miss the days under Buzz when the season started you KNEW they were going to the NCAA's(barring a monumental disaster), and were basically playing the season for seeding. Now THAT's relaxing and comforting as a fan.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 09, 2017, 08:25:47 PM
Agree on all points except "the quick fix wasn't going to happen because the powers that be wanted the anti Buzz". We've had three one year players in three years of Wojo and unsuccessfully went after a bunch more. We had one in six years under Buzz.
Not the interpretation I was going for, but I understand what you mean. So I will concede it to you.
I have lost too much interest to whine.
Quote from: naginiF on January 09, 2017, 08:26:54 PM
I was thinking more "Bull" Meechum, aka The Great Santini. Every generation that sees itself loosing influence and power to the next generation complains that their usurpers had it easier than they did (btw i'm 50). And every time that claim is based in arrogance or ignorance - the next few generations are going to do just as good and bad as the last few.
haha
Emilio Estevez's monologue go to 2:50 and tell me that it doesn't fit muguru perfectly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-ZyYtoKuUs
Quote from: Goose on January 09, 2017, 08:32:15 PM
I have lost too much interest to whine.
This is a problem, because you aren't alone in this...Honestly after being a season ticket holder for 14 years and donating to B & G fund, and MU being my biggest passion...I'm about ready to walk away myself, as hard as it may be for me..I just can't take the losing anymore, and honestly, I don't see the hope others do. I don't think Wojo was the right choice..after the admin got shunned by Mrs Shaka, Wojo felt like a "give up" choice. Like MU had finally relented and decided they could only be small time from now on. I loved Chords and everything he did for MU, he made a lot of great hires, but I don't think this was one of them. And it saddens me that this admin, and certainly the previous one doesn't have the same high hopes/expectations for the BB program that previous regimes did. Now, they are too worried about their image over all else.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 08:22:21 PM
I am truly sorry for your loss..and i can see why your perspective is completely different then mine. I don't begrudge you that. But honestly..I'd love to have an outlet like you do...a wife and two kids to care about so I didn't have to invest so much emotionally into MU basketball. I'd trade places with you or anyone in the same situation in a heartbeat.
I used to live and die with my team. I'd scoff anytime someone said "It's just sports." I was probably a lot like you.
Thanks for your condolences. You are right about how blessed I am to have a loving family.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 09, 2017, 08:32:58 PM
haha
Emilio Estevez's monologue go to 2:50 and tell me that it doesn't fit muguru perfectly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-ZyYtoKuUs
I see your Emilio Estevez and raise you a Robert Duvall (through the 4 min mark)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INCGjFPMKKA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INCGjFPMKKA)
No matta how you express it or your circumstance or generation or experience, we all share one thing: A passion for MU basketball. Lots of preaching going on (guilty), but just understand we all want the same thing, ai-na?
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 08:27:27 PM
The bottom line is, it's truly sad that we as MU fans have to even be thinking about how many wins it would take to get into the NCAA's or if they can squeeze in. I miss the days under Buzz when the season started you KNEW they were going to the NCAA's(barring a monumental disaster), and were basically playing the season for seeding. Now THAT's relaxing and comforting as a fan.
No. That's not the bottom line. You made a statement. Someone provided an example that you dismissed (because it proved you wrong on one point in your rant). I asked you to provide examples of what you meant and you couldn't.
It's fine to be wrong. I have no problem with your underlying premise your original post. Just take your lumps and move on.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 09, 2017, 08:59:26 PM
No matta how you express it or your circumstance or generation or experience, we all share one thing: A passion for MU basketball. Lots of preaching going on (guilty), but just understand we all want the same thing, ai-na?
Yes sir - Certainly a lot more fun talking about what went right in a win.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 09, 2017, 09:05:38 PM
No. That's not the bottom line. You made a statement. Someone provided an example that you dismissed (because it proved you wrong on one point in your rant). I asked you to provide examples of what you meant and you couldn't.
It's fine to be wrong. I have no problem with your underlying premise your original post. Just take your lumps and move on.
Fine, if you are going to pick nits..I wasn't clear enough what i said about a Creighton win being a big win..IF they won at Creighton this year and did what they were supposed to do the rest of the way...yes, that one win could be the one that got them in the NCAA's. Thus, how many said, if MU barely misses, losing that game at SHU will cost them at the end of the year. One game can make a difference. Regardless, my point was any win that ends up being big enough to get them into the NCAAs is a big win. Ebven winning at Providence last year didn't do that for them...this team is better and one game COULD make the difference this year..that game is Creighton.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 09:20:49 PM
Fine, if you are going to pick nits..I wasn't clear enough what i said about a Creighton win being a big win..IF they won at Creighton this year and did what they were supposed to do the rest of the way...yes, that one win could be the one that got them in the NCAA's. Thus, how many said, if MU barely misses, losing that game at SHU will cost them at the end of the year. One game can make a difference. Regardless, my point was any win that ends up being big enough to get them into the NCAAs is a big win. Ebven winning at Providence last year didn't do that for them...this team is better and one game COULD make the difference this year..that game is Creighton.
So out of curiosity if we only beat the other middling teams and low teams and sneak into the ncaa tournament without a program defining win will you be upset?
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 08:22:21 PM
But honestly..I'd love to have an outlet like you do...a wife and two kids to care about so I didn't have to invest so much emotionally into MU basketball. I'd trade places with you or anyone in the same situation in a heartbeat.
Your rant about "these kids today with their trophies and their carefree attitudes are what's ruining the world" was a classic. Are you sure you're not some 81-year-old curmudgeon?
I coach middle-school girls basketball at a "smart school." I have had kids miss games for Robotics, Science Decathlon and Mock Trial competitions.
But let me tell you, these girls HATE losing. They take it personally. They care deeply. They even want to win the smallest competitions and drills we have in practice, let alone the games themselves. And they don't get trophies just for participating.
And I have a feeling they are a lot more typical than "these kids today" that you whine and rant about.
What an effin' headache. No excuse for Saturday. None.
Anyone been ice fishing yet? How's the new vexilar camera?
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 07:29:20 PM
I give him a pass for the first year...but the 2nd year with an all american, can't give him a pass for that.. Obviously there is no way of saying for certain, but I feel confident in saying Buzz and a handful of other coaches would have had that team in the NCAAs, or close to it, and if they would have just missed, they sure as hell would have been in the NIT.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 07:58:25 PM
It's already water under the bridge, but I would have gone with the "quick fix" option. As i have said, numerous times, there are no guarantees for the future...when you have a chance to win, you do it NOW because it may not happen for awhile again. Now, I will say..I do love having a team that can shoot like this MU team can, and I believe they have the talent to get in the NCAA's(but i also though that last year). My BIGGEST problem is the lack of creativity as a Coach Wojo shows, and the fact that he apparently has no clue how to hide players deficiencies. That's a problem. He talks all the time about him needing to do a better job of putting the team in the best position to win...and yet, he rarely makes great in game adjustments, he will not switch things up if something isn't working, and has NO idea, absolutely none how to hide players deficiencies. Someone said it in a different thread..Luke has had problems on defense since Wojo took over...yet Wojo seems to have no idea how to fix those issues, or at least hide them so they stop recurring time and time again.
This is twice you've alluded to a "quick fix" option but haven't explained what those quick fixes are.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 09, 2017, 09:49:49 PM
This is twice you've alluded to a "quick fix" option but haven't explained what those quick fixes are.
Why feed the troll?
Love to see the whinin' on the GT board.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 09:20:49 PM
Fine
(https://media.giphy.com/media/1Z02vuppxP1Pa/giphy.gif)
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 09, 2017, 09:49:49 PM
This is twice you've alluded to a "quick fix" option but haven't explained what those quick fixes are.
same thing Buzz used..Jucos. Too bad if the admin doesnt like it. It's not cheating..and it's Wojo's program..the admin need to step aside and let him run it the way he wants. It's a potential win-win. We know for a fact that the BB team successful at MU has lead to more applications, more interest in the University as a whole which means more $$. In fact the Admin should be encouraging him to recruit Jucos.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on January 09, 2017, 08:00:34 PM
I've seen an influx of young talent and a coach that is growing as a game manger. It's progress.
If we are having this same discussion in three years he should be gone.
If we're having this same discussion next year he should be gone.
If we're having it in three years then the administration clearly doesn't care so we'll be screwed anyway.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 08:27:27 PM
The bottom line is, it's truly sad that we as MU fans have to even be thinking about how many wins it would take to get into the NCAA's or if they can squeeze in. I miss the days under Buzz when the season started you KNEW they were going to the NCAA's(barring a monumental disaster), and were basically playing the season for seeding. Now THAT's relaxing and comforting as a fan.
Um, weren't most Buzz teams deemed "Team Bubble Watch"? I don't have the same memories as you of knowing each Buzz team would make the NCAAs. At least not through the first 2/3 of the most seasons.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 10, 2017, 12:36:44 AM
Um, weren't most Buzz teams deemed "Team Bubble Watch"? I don't have the same memories as you of knowing each Buzz team would make the NCAAs. At least not through the first 2/3 of the most seasons.
I agree with you Rocky. I remember that one season where we were on the winning side of 3 close games in a row. It easily could have gone the other way and maybe, just maybe, we would have made the NIT. We are all impatient about making the post season, but it takes time to build a winning program. If we get Froling it looks like we are heading in the right direction.
Quote from: MU82 on January 09, 2017, 09:32:42 PM
This tells the rest of us all we need to know about you. You are a lonely, pathetic person who derives all satisfaction out of the accomplishments of 20-year-old athletes. You can't even enjoy road victories over a top-10 team or an in-state rival because you are a negative person with warped priorities.
You need to get a life ... and the perspective that goes with it.
Your rant about "these kids today with their trophies and their carefree attitudes are what's ruining the world" was a classic. Are you sure you're not some 81-year-old curmudgeon?
I coach middle-school girls basketball at a "smart school." I have had kids miss games for Robotics, Science Decathlon and Mock Trial competitions.
But let me tell you, these girls HATE losing. They take it personally. They care deeply. They even want to win the smallest competitions and drills we have in practice, let alone the games themselves. And they don't get trophies just for participating.
And I have a feeling they are a lot more typical than "these kids today" that you whine and rant about.
Go find a woman (or a man or a dog or something) and get a freakin' life beyond Marquette basketball.
I was going to post something very similar, but you said it very well. I can see how it would be easy to get angry with MUGURU, but I just feel sorry for him. I love Marquette basketball, but I can't imagine getting so caught up in every single win or loss that I would completely lose perspective. I absolutely see the program moving forward, despite some of the frustrations we all feel.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 10, 2017, 12:36:44 AM
Um, weren't most Buzz teams deemed "Team Bubble Watch"? I don't have the same memories as you of knowing each Buzz team would make the NCAAs. At least not through the first 2/3 of the most seasons.
Not most, Rocky. Years 1, 4 and 5 we were 40 - 14 in the Big East and would have been even better if DJ hadn't been hurt down the stretch in year 1. Year 2 was interesting - we went from out of it (remember the infamous "pee down our leg game?) to squarely on the bubble to safely in (11-7 in the BE, #6 seed). Year 3 we were on the bubble all year and year 6 (despite many here characterizing the season as beyond awful) we were on the bubble until we lost our last three games in OT. So I think it's fair to say 1 season on, 2 on for a large part and 3 off the bubble completely.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 10:06:39 PM
same thing Buzz used..Jucos. Too bad if the admin doesnt like it. It's not cheating..and it's Wojo's program..the admin need to step aside and let him run it the way he wants. It's a potential win-win. We know for a fact that the BB team successful at MU has lead to more applications, more interest in the University as a whole which means more $$. In fact the Admin should be encouraging him to recruit Jucos.
Ah, the old Juco quick fix cliche. First of all, Buzz came up through the Juco ranks and had tons of connections. That gave him access to the best Juco players. Wojo coached at Duke, where Coach K signed exactly one Juco and I believe that one never enrolled at Duke. So Wojo really doesn't have a history of recruiting Jucos. And my impression is Wojo really doesn't want to recruit Jucos. I think Wojo is recruiting who he wants and that vision aligns with the with what the administration wants. I'm not anti-Juco by any means. I just don't think Wojo is dying to recruit Jucos with only the administration standing in his way.
Plus, recruiting Jucos guarantees nothing. Sure we remember Buzz's hits well but there are many more Jamil Lotts and TJ Taylors than there are Jimmy Butlers, Jae Crowders, and DJOs.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on January 10, 2017, 07:51:05 AM
Ah, the old Juco quick fix cliche. First of all, Buzz came up through the Juco ranks and had tons of connections. That gave him access to the best Juco players. Wojo coached at Duke, where Coach K signed exactly one Juco and I believe that one never enrolled at Duke. So Wojo really doesn't have a history of recruiting Jucos. And my impression is Wojo really doesn't want to recruit Jucos. I think Wojo is recruiting who he wants and that vision aligns with the with what the administration wants. I'm not anti-Juco by any means. I just don't think Wojo is dying to recruit Jucos with only the administration standing in his way.
Plus, recruiting Jucos guarantees nothing. Sure we remember Buzz's hits well but there are many more Jamil Lotts and TJ Taylors than there are Jimmy Butlers, Jae Crowders, and DJOs.
And one can argue that Buzz went the Juco route because he couldn't actually develop players and/or transition players from high school to college level basketball. Any players that were successful under Buzz had development by someone else other than just a Buzz staff.
Quote from: naginiF on January 09, 2017, 08:49:37 PM
I see your Emilio Estevez and raise you a Robert Duvall (through the 4 min mark)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INCGjFPMKKA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INCGjFPMKKA)
You win haha
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 08:22:21 PM
I am truly sorry for your loss..and i can see why your perspective is completely different then mine. I don't begrudge you that. But honestly..I'd love to have an outlet like you do...a wife and two kids to care about so I didn't have to invest so much emotionally into MU basketball. I'd trade places with you or anyone in the same situation in a heartbeat.
You are letting your self worth be valued by the performance a group of teenage kids that you don't even know.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 10, 2017, 12:36:44 AM
Um, weren't most Buzz teams deemed "Team Bubble Watch"? I don't have the same memories as you of knowing each Buzz team would make the NCAAs. At least not through the first 2/3 of the most seasons.
We were #TBW for a reason. 2010 we epitomized the bubble team with the midgets and 2011 we couldn't be certain with 14 losses until our name was called on Selection Sunday. 2012 we were pretty safe by mid January, and while I felt secure all of 2012-13, there were more than a couple Scoopers that thought we were doomed to miss the tourney after the blowout at Florida and loss to Green Bay. Then 2014 we were back on the bubble, trying to claw back from the outside in until the season ending 4-game losing streak.
Personally, that first team didn't ever have the same feel of what I'd consider a "Buzz team." He was there, but really just caretaking Crean's team. His five subsequent years, we were unquestionably a bubble team 3 times, and by Scoop standards, 5 times. So yes, usually on the bubble.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 10, 2017, 08:18:58 AM
We were #TBW for a reason. 2010 we epitomized the bubble team with the midgets and 2011 we couldn't be certain with 14 losses until our name was called on Selection Sunday. 2012 we were pretty safe by mid January, and while I felt secure all of 2012-13, there were more than a couple Scoopers that thought we were doomed to miss the tourney after the blowout at Florida and loss to Green Bay. Then 2014 we were back on the bubble, trying to claw back from the outside in until the season ending 4-game losing streak.
Personally, that first team didn't ever have the same feel of what I'd consider a "Buzz team." He was there, but really just caretaking Crean's team. His five subsequent years, we were unquestionably a bubble team 3 times, and by Scoop standards, 5 times. So yes, usually on the bubble.
How does a #6 seeded team "epitomize" a bubble team? At least 24 at large teams were selected after us. So for part of the year, yes - but only part. And in 2014, we didn't even make the NIT. So again, for part of the year, yes.
But even worse than your bad math is totally dismissing Buzz's first year. Not a coach but a caretaker? Seriously? Tell that to Wesley Matthews, an afterthought for three years who became the 1a option in a new offense. And tell that to D James, whose role in the offense completely changed. I guess we watched entirely different teams 1n 2008-09.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 10, 2017, 09:29:50 AM
How does a #6 seeded team "epitomize" a bubble team? At least 24 at large teams were selected after us. So for part of the year, yes - but only part. And in 2014, we didn't even make the NIT. So again, for part of the year, yes.
But even worse than your bad math is totally dismissing Buzz's first year. Not a coach but a caretaker? Seriously? Tell that to Wesley Matthews, an afterthought for three years who became the 1a option in a new offense. And tell that to D James, whose role in the offense completely changed. I guess we watched entirely different teams 1n 2008-09.
You are turning into Chicos #2 with your constant defenses of Buzz. I know, you are just setting the record straight or some nonsense. Just let it go.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 10, 2017, 09:41:19 AM
You are turning into Chicos #2 with your constant defenses of Buzz. I know, you are just setting the record straight or some nonsense. Just let it go.
(http://37.media.tumblr.com/18901f25139347103d36e32deafdf22e/tumblr_n1zi5rWB2V1r7b6cio1_500.gif)
Since this thread has turned into whining & counter whining...
I would like to add that I do not like our new Grey Unis! There I got that off my chest and can go about the workday.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 10, 2017, 09:41:19 AM
You are turning into Chicos #2 with your constant defenses of Buzz. I know, you are just setting the record straight or some nonsense. Just let it go.
There is a lot of revisionist history taking place here to try to minimize the job Buzz Williams did at Marquette, in order to try to prop up the thus far, uninspiring start, to the Steven Wojciechoswki era at Marquette.
Wojo has gone after JUCO's, one-year rentals, and cut players, all in the attempt to become a winner from Day 1 of taking over the program. There is no "taking the long term approach to the rebuild," or trying to "build the program the right way and through high school kids." This should be applauded, even if it hasn't resulted in us becoming a winner yet. The clear challenge for Wojo is going to be the actual in game coaching part of the job.
Kudos to Lenny's Tap for setting the record straight.
Quote from: mu03eng on January 10, 2017, 08:04:09 AM
And one can argue that Buzz went the Juco route because he couldn't actually develop players and/or transition players from high school to college level basketball. Any players that were successful under Buzz had development by someone else other than just a Buzz staff.
I'm pretty sure Buzz "developed" Vander into the player capable of leading us into the Elite Eight and Davante from an unheralded recruit into one of the best offensive post players in the country. I don't think it's a reach to say he also had a fairly large role in Wes becoming an NBA player. Many of his recruits did not fare as well, including both prepsters and jucos. That's pretty par for the course for most successful coaches - some nice hits, a few bad misses.
I don't worship Buzz to the level that Lenny does. I don't hate him (or Crean) like some here do. I think Wojo is on the right track but I allow that I might end up being proven wrong; I choose to be optimistic.
I just like to get all the facts right as often as possible.
I'll give Buzz a lot of credit for unleashing Wes Matthews. Butler and Crowder came in with a nice floor but Buzz certainly helped them reach their ceiling.
But I'm pretty sure I could have coached MU to the tournament in Buzz's first year. That is not a knock on Buzz. Just saying that comparing the situation Wojo took over to Buzz's is apples and oranges.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on January 10, 2017, 10:31:22 AM
I'll give Buzz a lot of credit for unleashing Wes Matthews. Butler and Crowder came in with a nice floor but Buzz certainly helped them reach their ceiling.
But I'm pretty sure I could have coached MU to the tournament in Buzz's first year. That is not a knock on Buzz. Just saying that comparing the situation Wojo took over to Buzz's is apples and oranges.
The NBA had more to do with helping Butler reach his ceiling than Buzz did, Jimmy was not a great offensive player here (Cincinnati game excluded)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 10, 2017, 09:50:31 AM
I would like to add that I do not like our new Grey Unis!
I agree with this analysis
Quote from: mu03eng on January 10, 2017, 08:04:09 AM
And one can argue that Buzz went the Juco route because he couldn't actually develop players and/or transition players from high school to college level basketball. Any players that were successful under Buzz had development by someone else other than just a Buzz staff.
Here is an interesting question. That narrative developed IMO because 1. Buzz was working to ensure that he had experience on a team when crean's roster turned with a favor for and an inside track with JUCO players and 2. We MU fans didn't realize we were on a precipice of the transfer/grad transfer explosion coming off 4 years of stability with the 3 amigos.
I truly believed this narrative was true back then. But now seeing Wojo's developing track record with HS recruits makes me question how much of this was BW. If you look at BW's current team he has a balance of VT recruits, transfers from other programs and JUCOs. Wojo has had the same mix - just without the JUCOs.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 10, 2017, 10:51:45 AM
The NBA had more to do with helping Butler reach his ceiling than Buzz did, Jimmy was not a great offensive player here (Cincinnati game excluded)
Yes, Jimmy clearly kept improving in the Association. But look at his MU career. Jimmy looked lost at his first Madness, was solid by the end of sophomore year, and made a big jump junior year. I think it's fair to give Buzz some credit for his development.
Quote from: MU82 on January 10, 2017, 10:24:23 AM
I'm pretty sure Buzz "developed" Vander into the player capable of leading us into the Elite Eight and Davante from an unheralded recruit into one of the best offensive post players in the country. I don't think it's a reach to say he also had a fairly large role in Wes becoming an NBA player. Many of his recruits did not fare as well, including both prepsters and jucos. That's pretty par for the course for most successful coaches - some nice hits, a few bad misses.
I don't worship Buzz to the level that Lenny does. I don't hate him (or Crean) like some here do. I think Wojo is on the right track but I allow that I might end up being proven wrong; I choose to be optimistic.
I just like to get all the facts right as often as possible.
I'll give you Vander for sure and Ox generally, though Ox's skillset didn't really change from day 1 to senior year, just usage.
Wesley is the perfect example of what Buzz's best capabilities were, seeing what he had and using it to maximum effect. I don't think Buzz did anything to develop Wesley per se, I think it was much more about using him and his skillsets in the best way possible. Crean kept Matthews as a 3rd if not 4th banana most of the time, Buzz featured him in the offense.
Also keep in mind, the majority of Buzz's teams were focused on defense, not offense. That isn't a knock on the strategy but it is easier to develop a defensively than it is offensively (which is why I'm really confused by Wojo right now).
I'm not trying to minimize Buzz's significance, he had a lot of positive things going for him as a coach, but player development was pretty low on the list of those things IMO
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on January 08, 2017, 08:47:33 PM
It was reported in Scoop a couple years ago that Marquette invests the second highest amount of money in the nation on its basketball program.
This was not based on facts
Wojo needs to look JuCo because he has zero track record of developing players at MU. Haanif has regressed, Duane has regressed, Sandy regressed to the point of being unable to play, Luke has not improved in three seasons.
His best players are Markus Howard and Sam Hauser, and they just came from high school.
Quote from: DienerTime34 on January 10, 2017, 11:12:07 AM
Wojo needs to look JuCo because he has zero track record of developing players at MU. Haanif has regressed, Duane has regressed, Sandy regressed to the point of being unable to play, Luke has not improved in three seasons.
His best players are Markus Howard and Sam Hauser, and they just came from high school.
Haanif has not regressed.
Duane's usage has gone down by he is much more efficient this year than in any other.
Sandy improved from his first to second year.
Luke has most definitely improved.
Congrats! 0-4.
Quote from: DienerTime34 on January 10, 2017, 11:12:07 AM
Wojo needs to look JuCo because he has zero track record of developing players at MU. Haanif has regressed, Duane has regressed, Sandy regressed to the point of being unable to play, Luke has not improved in three seasons.
I'd agree with you if you had managed to get even 50% of your facts correct
Back on subject, I'm really tired of the constant negativity of our fan base. Sure, we are not an elite level program, yet, but we're improving each year and we should give Wojo a chance to see what he can do with what's coming in.
Some specific issues I keep reading:
1) Wojo Can't Coach Defense -- Some of you guys need to go back and read Dean Smith's autobiography. In it, he speaks about Michael Jordan and about how the young players that came into North Carolina didn't know the Carolina way of defending. They had to be taught (Jordan, of course, was the exception). Even Al, the king of defense, implied the same thing in his quotes, "the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores" and "my seniors are my stars." The fact is that it takes time to teach defense at the college level, which was very apparent last year. Our team is improving and as Wojo's guys become juniors and seniors, this should go away. I'm seeing a lot fewer back-door attacks on our defense that we used to and the overall effort is much, much better.
2) We Want Buzz -- First of all, the guy is gone. I suspect there is a proportion of the people who are whining about Buzz who somehow think if we whine enough, we'll get him back. Not gonna happen. If you want Buzz that badly, there's a hillbilly team in the Mountains of Virginia who would welcome you as a fan. Go cheer for them. Second, I had considerable reservation about Buzz's ability to develop talent. Vander Blue was an exception, but he was slow coming and with the exception of the Elite 8 run, never lived up to his press clippings. Need we remember Jeronne Maymon, Jamil Jones etc., all of whom had big pedigrees and disappointing outcomes. And we won't even talk about Mr. Newbill!
3) We Can Do Better -- Well, I suppose that if we called Slick Rick, Coach K, or John Calipari, they'd leave Duke, Louisville and Kentucky for Marquette. We just know they would. Have to! The fact is two of the best coaches we had in the Post Al era, Tommy Crean and KO, were first assistants at major programs. Want a winner, go where winners live and hire the best. That's what we did. I'd hate to think what Scoop would have done to MU after we hired Al from Belmont Abbey.
Look, this year is barely into the conference season. We had a heartbreaker against Seton Hall and got our heads handed to us by the Number 1 team in the country. But I see an improved team, a conscientious, hard working and smart coach and continued good recruiting. Are we where we should be? No, we're not. We have some weaknesses and in the months ahead, they'll be addressed. If not, our coach's seat should and will get hot.
I want to ask all the Juco proponents: Who is available that Wojo should be recruiting? I'll gladly add a Juco. I truly would.
But it is way too easy to simply say Jucos are the answer. So please, please, please give me a name. Support your argument, don't just throw out tired cliches.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on January 10, 2017, 11:52:09 AM
I want to ask all the Juco proponents: Who is available that Wojo should be recruiting? I'll gladly add a Juco. I truly would.
But it is way too easy to simply say Jucos are the answer. So please, please, please give me a name. Support your argument, don't just throw out tired cliches.
At this point, we likely have two scholarships left for next year, assuming we nab Froling today.
I think one should go to Greg Elliot - a guy who hopefully understands that he isn't going to see much PT year one, but is willing to work hard in practice and develop.
The 2nd should be held for a HIGH IMPACT grad transfer. A wing that can fill it up, or another front court option.
That gives us three scholarships in 2018 (Rowsey, Duane, and GRAD TRANSFER) - one for Joey, one for a stud PG (Watson, Ramey or Dosunmo), and one for best player available.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on January 10, 2017, 11:52:09 AM
I want to ask all the Juco proponents: Who is available that Wojo should be recruiting? I'll gladly add a Juco. I truly would.
But it is way too easy to simply say Jucos are the answer. So please, please, please give me a name. Support your argument, don't just throw out tired cliches.
I can't speak for those you addressed this to, but posters have talked about restrictions imposed by MU over and above NCAA base limits which results in a smaller pool of JUCOs available. One poster even said the 'extra work/requirements' required to join MU caused a specific player to choose another institution. Thus one potential source of players, while not closed is more difficult to exploit.
So I think it is fair to debate the policy under a broad umbrella. Not that it matters for Wojo right now.
Quote from: Nostradamus on January 10, 2017, 10:02:35 AM
There is a lot of revisionist history taking place here to try to minimize the job Buzz Williams did at Marquette, in order to try to prop up the thus far, uninspiring start, to the Steven Wojciechoswki era at Marquette.
Wojo has gone after JUCO's, one-year rentals, and cut players, all in the attempt to become a winner from Day 1 of taking over the program. There is no "taking the long term approach to the rebuild," or trying to "build the program the right way and through high school kids." This should be applauded, even if it hasn't resulted in us becoming a winner yet. The clear challenge for Wojo is going to be the actual in game coaching part of the job.
Kudos to Lenny's Tap for setting the record straight.
So, Ners, who did Wojo cut?
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on January 10, 2017, 11:21:16 AM
Haanif has not regressed.
Duane's usage has gone down by he is much more efficient this year than in any other.
Sandy improved from his first to second year.
Luke has most definitely improved.
Congrats! 0-4.
If those players have improved, it's only slightly...It's barely noticeable..Haney can't go right, or create his own shot other than a drive to the hole...Luke can't make a jump shot even from 8-10 feet away(look at how much Davante improved in that area). Under Buzz, like Davante, you would see noticeable improvement like "wow, where did that come from all of a sudden"..They added things to their arsenal..You haven't seen that with Haney, Duane or Luke. So if there's been improvement, it's been useful, but NOT impactful.
Quote from: muguru on January 10, 2017, 12:14:06 PM
If those players have improved, it's only slightly...It's barely noticeable..Haney can't go right, or create his own shot other than a drive to the hole...Luke can't make a jump shot even from 8-10 feet away(look at how much Davante improved in that area). Under Buzz, like Davante, you would see noticeable improvement like "wow, where did that come from all of a sudden"..They added things to their arsenal..You haven't seen that with Haney, Duane or Luke. So if there's been improvement, it's been useful, but NOT impactful.
Completely disagree with Davante, he showed up with a jump shot, but was coached NOT to use it until late in his career. That wasn't a tool they added late, it was something he was predisposed to do, much like his coast to coast lay-ups.
And for an apples to apples comparison, Luke can absolutely hit mid to short range jump shots, but they don't need/want him to do that in this offensive scheme. When you are playing 4 out, 1 in....it makes no sense to have your 1 in be a jump shooter.
Having said all of that, the jury is still out on player development from Wojo
MU is in a position right now to where they almost have to highly consider Jucos. They currently have 9 scholarship players. 3 of which graduate. I dont think its a good idea to bring in that man Frosh or 1 year transfers. They should explore every option.
Quote from: muguru on January 10, 2017, 12:14:06 PM
If those players have improved, it's only slightly...It's barely noticeable..Haney can't go right, or create his own shot other than a drive to the hole...Luke can't make a jump shot even from 8-10 feet away(look at how much Davante improved in that area). Under Buzz, like Davante, you would see noticeable improvement like "wow, where did that come from all of a sudden"..They added things to their arsenal..You haven't seen that with Haney, Duane or Luke. So if there's been improvement, it's been useful, but NOT impactful.
Well again, that's not really true. Just looking at Luke's Marquette stats...
**Luke's eFG% has been higher than Davante's for all three years. Davante's actually decreased from years three to four.
**Luke's total rebound percentage has increased in three consecutive years. Davante's decreased in three consecutive years.
**Davante's assist percentage increased in all three years. Luke's has been relatively the same.
**Both have seen decreases in turnover percentage. Both saw increases in both OR and DR three years. Luke is better defensively, Davante offensively.
**Davante did a much better job getting to the line and shot at a high percentage.
It would be helpful if people actually looked at the objective measurements before making statements like that.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 10, 2017, 12:12:03 PM
I can't speak for those you addressed this to, but posters have talked about restrictions imposed by MU over and above NCAA base limits which results in a smaller pool of JUCOs available. One poster even said the 'extra work/requirements' required to join MU caused a specific player to choose another institution. Thus one potential source of players, while not closed is more difficult to exploit.
So I think it is fair to debate the policy under a broad umbrella. Not that it matters for Wojo right now.
The only Juco I recall giving Wojo an official visit is Darrlyn Willis. 6-8 220 PF leading Wichita State in scoring and rebounding at 12 & 6. Would be nice to have him.
If the administration cost MU a chance at Willis, that is too bad. Like I said, I'd gladly take a Juco. Not much left this year though, at least as far as I can tell.
Quote from: Small Orange Soda on January 09, 2017, 10:15:07 PM
If we're having this same discussion next year he should be gone.
If we're having it in three years then the administration clearly doesn't care so we'll be screwed anyway.
This...
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 10, 2017, 11:44:19 AM
Back on subject, I'm really tired of the constant negativity of our fan base. Sure, we are not an elite level program, yet, but we're improving each year and we should give Wojo a chance to see what he can do with what's coming in.
Some specific issues I keep reading:
1) Wojo Can't Coach Defense -- Some of you guys need to go back and read Dean Smith's autobiography. In it, he speaks about Michael Jordan and about how the young players that came into North Carolina didn't know the Carolina way of defending. They had to be taught (Jordan, of course, was the exception). Even Al, the king of defense, implied the same thing in his quotes, "the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores" and "my seniors are my stars." The fact is that it takes time to teach defense at the college level, which was very apparent last year. Our team is improving and as Wojo's guys become juniors and seniors, this should go away. I'm seeing a lot fewer back-door attacks on our defense that we used to and the overall effort is much, much better.
2) We Want Buzz -- First of all, the guy is gone. I suspect there is a proportion of the people who are whining about Buzz who somehow think if we whine enough, we'll get him back. Not gonna happen. If you want Buzz that badly, there's a hillbilly team in the Mountains of Virginia who would welcome you as a fan. Go cheer for them. Second, I had considerable reservation about Buzz's ability to develop talent. Vander Blue was an exception, but he was slow coming and with the exception of the Elite 8 run, never lived up to his press clippings. Need we remember Jeronne Maymon, Jamil Jones etc., all of whom had big pedigrees and disappointing outcomes. And we won't even talk about Mr. Newbill!
3) We Can Do Better -- Well, I suppose that if we called Slick Rick, Coach K, or John Calipari, they'd leave Duke, Louisville and Kentucky for Marquette. We just know they would. Have to! The fact is two of the best coaches we had in the Post Al era, Tommy Crean and KO, were first assistants at major programs. Want a winner, go where winners live and hire the best. That's what we did. I'd hate to think what Scoop would have done to MU after we hired Al from Belmont Abbey.
Look, this year is barely into the conference season. We had a heartbreaker against Seton Hall and got our heads handed to us by the Number 1 team in the country. But I see an improved team, a conscientious, hard working and smart coach and continued good recruiting. Are we where we should be? No, we're not. We have some weaknesses and in the months ahead, they'll be addressed. If not, our coach's seat should and will get hot.
More complaining...One of the problems with our defense is emblematic of what I see as a deeper problem with MU hoops as it exists right now. It is toughness/effort we don't have it in ample amounts, plain and simple. I don't know how you can measure that but MU fails the (my) eye test. Missed layups, failed box outs etc. MU will have a hard ceiling in the BE at # 5or 6 until Wojo can recruit Duke talent, which isn't going to happen. Much, much better? It seem to be trending the right way but not fast enough for complainers like me.
Buzz is gone. I guess it might be useful to use him as a comparison but maybe not?
Get somebody better, I generally agree that Wojo is about as good as we are going to get given program requirements. I am lukewarm on Wojo right now but hopeful.
Let me complain for a moment. I also find it distasteful when posters go off on individuals on the team. I think it is in bad taste. I will continue to complain and whine about the lack of toughness. If you like go ahead and put entitled whiners like me on ignore.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on January 10, 2017, 11:21:16 AM
Haanif has not regressed.
Duane's usage has gone down by he is much more efficient this year than in any other.
Sandy improved from his first to second year.
Luke has most definitely improved.
Congrats! 0-4.
False - Don't recall any polls last season, or topics last season asking, What's wrong with Haanif? Can Haanif recover/return to form? Think most MU fans are a little worried and certainly had higher expectations for Haanif than what he's produced thus far this year.
True - Duane was overplayed last year, resulting in lower efficiency.
False - Sandy Cohen was a train wreck by the end of last year, and worse than he was Day 1 walking into the MU program and starting.
False - Arguably, Luke's best game at MU was his first. Negligible gains in rebounding percentage and eFG of all less than 2% since since he started playing 3 seasons ago aren't exactly the type of improvement we should be excited about after 3 seasons in the program. All this said, Luke does get unfairly piled on by some fans. He's a solid player and will be missed next year.
*I'm sure Wojo and staff don't hail the gains of Luke, Sandy, Duane and Haanif on the recruiting trail.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 10, 2017, 12:12:03 PM
I can't speak for those you addressed this to, but posters have talked about restrictions imposed by MU over and above NCAA base limits which results in a smaller pool of JUCOs available. One poster even said the 'extra work/requirements' required to join MU caused a specific player to choose another institution. Thus one potential source of players, while not closed is more difficult to exploit.
So I think it is fair to debate the policy under a broad umbrella. Not that it matters for Wojo right now.
Keep in mind those Juco requirements were in place from the previous AD/Prez. And that was a reaction (wrongly IMO) to a combination issues including a player coming to Marquette that was a really tough stretch academically. Not that the player couldn't handle the academics but that admitting him was a potential red flag to the NCAA that we thankfully dodged.
There is not currently a separate standard for Juco's compared to any other student-athlete. Anyone who meets the current academic standard can be admitted to the university. It could be argued the standard is less forgiving on Jucos because of accreditation issues but it's not deliberate to my knowledge.
Bottom line, if Wojo wanted a Juco he could more than likely get that juco.
Quote from: Nostradamus on January 10, 2017, 12:43:31 PM
False - Don't recall any polls last season, or topics last season asking, What's wrong with Haanif? Can Haanif recover/return to form? Think most MU fans are a little worried and certainly had higher expectations for Haanif than what he's produced thus far this year.
Not meeting expectations is a totally different thing than regressing.
Quote from: Nostradamus on January 10, 2017, 12:43:31 PM
False - Don't recall any polls last season, or topics last season asking, What's wrong with Haanif? Can Haanif recover/return to form? Think most MU fans are a little worried and certainly had higher expectations for Haanif than what he's produced thus far this year.
True - Duane was overplayed last year, resulting in lower efficiency.
False - Sandy Cohen was a train wreck by the end of last year, and worse than he was Day 1 walking into the MU program and starting.
False - Arguably, Luke's best game at MU was his first. Negligible gains in rebounding percentage and eFG of all less than 2% since since he started playing 3 seasons ago aren't exactly the type of improvement we should be excited about after 3 seasons in the program. All this said, Luke does get unfairly piled on by some fans. He's a solid player and will be missed next year.
*I'm sure Wojo and staff don't hail the gains of Luke, Sandy, Duane and Haanif on the recruiting trail.
The objective measurements show that I am correct. Unless you can show objectively what I said was false, then you are 1-4. Slightly better than the OP, but still below replacement level.
Quote from: DienerTime34 on January 10, 2017, 11:12:07 AM
Wojo needs to look JuCo because he has zero track record of developing players at MU. Haanif has regressed, Duane has regressed, Sandy regressed to the point of being unable to play, Luke has not improved in three seasons.
His best players are Markus Howard and Sam Hauser, and they just came from high school.
Besides all of this being wrong...Heldt improved year 1 to year 2. JJJ is far better than when Wojo got here.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on January 10, 2017, 12:48:52 PM
The objective measurements show that I am correct. Unless you can show objectively what I said was false, then you are 1-4. Slightly better than the OP, but still below replacement level.
Objective? Like Haanif's eFG% regressing from 54.3% after a whole season of Big East play (as a freshman) to 48.6% through cupcake season and 3 Big East games thus far this season? Granted his train wreck of turnover rate as a freshman has come down this year (and subsequently his O-Rating his "improved") since he isn't playing PG this season, as was the case, inexplicably, last season.
Pretty sure of the Four Factors most important to winning basketball games eFG% is a factor, but O-Rating is not.
Haanif's regression in eFG is concerning and absolutely affecting the team in a negative manner.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 10:06:39 PM
same thing Buzz used..Jucos. Too bad if the admin doesnt like it. It's not cheating..and it's Wojo's program..the admin need to step aside and let him run it the way he wants. It's a potential win-win. We know for a fact that the BB team successful at MU has lead to more applications, more interest in the University as a whole which means more $$. In fact the Admin should be encouraging him to recruit Jucos.
The myth of the fertile recruiting grounds of JUCO has been greatly exaggerated. We were absolutely spoiled with the quality of JUCOs we got from Buzz. Crowder, JFB, DJO, and Buycks were four of the best JUCOs not just of their time period, but of all time. Most JUCOs don't pan out at the high major level. What JUCOs was Wojo supposed to land?
Over the past two years, 247 has ranked 99 players as the top JUCOs in the country.
1 was accused of sexual assault multiple times and as such wouldn't have been welcomed at Marquette. (2015 #1 Dominic Artis, went to UTEP). 98 Left.
Of those 98, 66 have yet to average more than 20 minutes in a game. An admittedly arbitrary stat but you would think to be an impact player at Marquette that you would have averaged around 20 minutes at most programs. 32 left.
Of those 32, 4 went to low major programs (South Alabama, Eastern Illinois, Lipscomb, and Grand Canyon). Definitely not at Marquette's level, down to 28.
Of those 28, 11 went to mid major programs (Murray State, Little Rock, UTEP, Houston, Western Kentucky, Fresno State, Central Florida, Iona, Missouri State, Tulsa, and Middle Tennessee State). A couple of those might have cracked Marquette's roster and some might have even started. But most would be role players at best. Down to 17.
Of those 17, 7 went to high major programs currently ranked outside of the top 100 per KenPom (St. John's, LSU, Auburn, Washington, Rutgers, Missouri, and Washington State). Again, some might have cracked the roster, and some may have earned a starting spot, but most would be role players at Marquette, if that. 10 Left.
Here are the 10 remaining JUCOs:
2015 #11 Chris Boucher (Oregon): 25.3 minutes, 14.1 points, 7.3 rebounds, 2.9 blocks
2015 #13 Justin Leon (Florida): 21.7 minutes, 7.2 points, 3.4 rebounds, .455 3P%
2015 #23 Vladimir Brodziansky (TCU): 20.3 minutes, 11.4 points, 5.2 rebounds, .590 FG%
2015 #34 Devon Thomas (Texas Tech): 25.5 minutes, 4.9 points, 3.8 assists, 1.3 steals
2015 #50 Rasheed Brooks (Ole Miss): 23.9 minutes, 8.8 points, 3.1 rebounds, 1.1 steals
2016 #1 Jaylen Barford (Arkansas): 22.1 minutes, 10.2 points, 3.3 rebounds, .286 3P%
2016 #5 Daryl Macon (Arkansas): 24.9 minutes, 14.1 points, 2.5 assists, .391 3P%
2016 #14 Tyler Rawson (Utah): 23.5 minutes, 7.7 points, 5.2 rebounds, 0.9 blocks
2016 #22 JoJo Zamora (Utah): 25.3 minutes, 10.6 points, 1.5 assists, .434 3P%
2016 #26 Justas Furmanavicius (Ole Miss): 23.6 minutes, 6.0 points, 5.4 rebounds, 1.5 blocks
All 10 would at least be rotation players for Marquette. I would say only Boucher and Macon would be definite starters. Others might have started, really can't say. Boucher is for sure the only true impact player that was the level of JUCO that Buzz was bringing in.
Oh and all these are assuming that none of the 99 had any disciplinary or academic issues that would have kept them out (besides Artis whose case I happened to know)
This is far from a science. There is a juco or two at the mid major level that I think could have competed at Marquette, Rob Gray at Houston comes to mind, but the main point still stands. Most JUCOs are JUCOs because they aren't very good at basketball. The pool of JUCOs capable of stepping in and starting for a high major is EXTREMELY shallow. In most cases, I would rather get a freshman who has four years to develop into a starter. I would rather have Howard and Hauser than any JUCO from last year's class. There were a couple of JUCOs in the 2015 class I would have rather had than say Heldt or Anim, but only a couple.
Quote from: Nostradamus on January 10, 2017, 12:58:43 PM
Objective? Like Haanif's eFG% regressing from 54.3% after a whole season of Big East play (as a freshman) to 48.6% through cupcake season and 3 Big East games thus far this season? Granted his train wreck of turnover rate as a freshman has come down this year (and subsequently his O-Rating his "improved") since he isn't playing PG this season, as was the case, inexplicably, last season.
Pretty sure of the Four Factors most important to winning basketball games eFG% is a factor, but O-Rating is not.
Haanif's regression in eFG is concerning and absolutely affecting the team in a negative manner.
His EFG% has regressed, but his overall offensive rating has improved....so.....
Quote from: mu03eng on January 10, 2017, 12:47:36 PM
Keep in mind those Juco requirements were in place from the previous AD/Prez. And that was a reaction (wrongly IMO) to a combination issues including a player coming to Marquette that was a really tough stretch academically. Not that the player couldn't handle the academics but that admitting him was a potential red flag to the NCAA that we thankfully dodged.
There is not currently a separate standard for Juco's compared to any other student-athlete. Anyone who meets the current academic standard can be admitted to the university. It could be argued the standard is less forgiving on Jucos because of accreditation issues but it's not deliberate to my knowledge.
Bottom line, if Wojo wanted a Juco he could more than likely get that juco.
I dont disagree with anything you said.
I question whether or not the 'able to achieve a degree within time playing basketball' is equatable or makes sense for the program (quoting because I dont know the precise restriction). I know those closer to academia feel strongly about it - I don't.
I say if you take one and dones, grad transfers and live in a world where high percentage of your freshman recruits don't end up staying in the same school for four years and players get cut from time to time - why limit this group as a source of recruits.
catching up on scoop....9 pages of replies in 2 days?! Winner post.
Not Read the 9 pages worth so forgive if my post misses something.
My take: Agree with the tenor of the Post and everything stated except the stuff on Buzz...that was whining of a different sort...take that paragraph out and 5-stars.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 10, 2017, 01:01:04 PM
The myth of the fertile recruiting grounds of JUCO has been greatly exaggerated. We were absolutely spoiled with the quality of JUCOs we got from Buzz. Crowder, JFB, DJO, and Buycks were four of the best JUCOs not just of their time period, but of all time. Most JUCOs don't pan out at the high major level. What JUCOs was Wojo supposed to land?
Over the past two years, 247 has ranked 99 players as the top JUCOs in the country.
1 was accused of sexual assault multiple times and as such wouldn't have been welcomed at Marquette. (2015 #1 Dominic Artis, went to UTEP). 98 Left.
Of those 98, 66 have yet to average more than 20 minutes in a game. An admittedly arbitrary stat but you would think to be an impact player at Marquette that you would have averaged around 20 minutes at most programs. 32 left.
Of those 32, 4 went to low major programs (South Alabama, Eastern Illinois, Lipscomb, and Grand Canyon). Definitely not at Marquette's level, down to 28.
Of those 28, 11 went to mid major programs (Murray State, Little Rock, UTEP, Houston, Western Kentucky, Fresno State, Central Florida, Iona, Missouri State, Tulsa, and Middle Tennessee State). A couple of those might have cracked Marquette's roster and some might have even started. But most would be role players at best. Down to 17.
Of those 17, 7 went to high major programs currently ranked outside of the top 100 per KenPom (St. John's, LSU, Auburn, Washington, Rutgers, Missouri, and Washington State). Again, some might have cracked the roster, and some may have earned a starting spot, but most would be role players at Marquette, if that. 10 Left.
Here are the 10 remaining JUCOs:
2015 #11 Chris Boucher (Oregon): 25.3 minutes, 14.1 points, 7.3 rebounds, 2.9 blocks
2015 #13 Justin Leon (Florida): 21.7 minutes, 7.2 points, 3.4 rebounds, .455 3P%
2015 #23 Vladimir Brodziansky (TCU): 20.3 minutes, 11.4 points, 5.2 rebounds, .590 FG%
2015 #34 Devon Thomas (Texas Tech): 25.5 minutes, 4.9 points, 3.8 assists, 1.3 steals
2015 #50 Rasheed Brooks (Ole Miss): 23.9 minutes, 8.8 points, 3.1 rebounds, 1.1 steals
2016 #1 Jaylen Barford (Arkansas): 22.1 minutes, 10.2 points, 3.3 rebounds, .286 3P%
2016 #5 Daryl Macon (Arkansas): 24.9 minutes, 14.1 points, 2.5 assists, .391 3P%
2016 #14 Tyler Rawson (Utah): 23.5 minutes, 7.7 points, 5.2 rebounds, 0.9 blocks
2016 #22 JoJo Zamora (Utah): 25.3 minutes, 10.6 points, 1.5 assists, .434 3P%
2016 #26 Justas Furmanavicius (Ole Miss): 23.6 minutes, 6.0 points, 5.4 rebounds, 1.5 blocks
All 10 would at least be rotation players for Marquette. I would say only Boucher and Macon would be definite starters. Others might have started, really can't say. Boucher is for sure the only true impact player that was the level of JUCO that Buzz was bringing in.
Oh and all these are assuming that none of the 99 had any disciplinary or academic issues that would have kept them out (besides Artis whose case I happened to know)
This is far from a science. There is a juco or two at the mid major level that I think could have competed at Marquette, Rob Gray at Houston comes to mind, but the main point still stands. Most JUCOs are JUCOs because they aren't very good at basketball. The pool of JUCOs capable of stepping in and starting for a high major is EXTREMELY shallow. In most cases, I would rather get a freshman who has four years to develop into a starter. I would rather have Howard and Hauser than any JUCO from last year's class. There were a couple of JUCOs in the 2015 class I would have rather had than say Heldt or Anim, but only a couple.
Nice analysis, TAMU. If finding guys like JFB, DJO, Buycks and Crowder (and McKay and a healthy Joe Fulce) were commonplace everyone (including Duke) would be recruiting JUCOs. Those guys were a rare combination of talent and dedication you'll rarely find in the junior college ranks - or anywhere else, for that matter.
Lots of good back and forth and varying opinions of where we've been, where we are and where (hopefully) we're going in this thread.
Some nasty personal insults, too, but we don't get a ten page thread on Scoop without them. C'est la vie.
Lenny
As usual, you are right on target. It is funny that is difficult to agree on where we and where we want to be. IMO the single bright spot of this season is Markus Howard. I do believe he has what it takes to be a big time D1 PG. Hauser is notch down IMO, but someone worth keeping an eye on moving forward. Other than that, we are another year of no NCAA and not looking much better next year.
My biggest rub is always on where we want the program to be, and I always feel way too many excuses used on here on why we cannot be a tier 1 program. For the first time in my life I am close to throwing my arms up in the air and give up the MU ball chase. Not there yet, but getting closer quickly.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 12:23:18 PM
You NEVER expect to lose, EVER...At anything. That's small minded.
Sounds like you need to grow up and learn that losing is a fact of life. Sometimes it happens more often than other times. This is true for any program you want to talk about, if you want to stick to college basketball. Even Duke has it's relative down years.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 12:23:18 PM
Okay now we get to the "he's laying the foundation" part...great, but does anyone stop to think, what if 3-4 years from now, MU still isn't going to the NCAA's?? Then what?? That's why winning, and winning now is so important, the future is never guaranteed. That's why there's the instant gratification part. Winning cures everything.
Most of the reasonable people here, none of whom are the decision makers mind you, would prefer to have a 4-6 window to let Wojo (or whoever the next coach is down the road) build the program to suit his recruiting and playing schemes. So if 3-4 years from now MU is still struggling, I agree his seat will be very warm.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 12:23:18 PM
Finally, I will guarantee you NONE of you put up with the sh*t on a daily basis that I do from badger fans that just LOVE sticking it in my face how successful their program has been and how MU sucks. Sadly, I have no comebacks, because they are right. Maybe it shouldn't be a big deal, but trust me when I tell you...the folks I hear it from(almost hourly), want nothing more than to see MU fail, and fail miserably, and take great joy in their demise. NO ONE takes the harassment I do, at least not in this kind of way, a small chiding type of way sure..but these are vicious attacks, that don't quit. It gets tiring.
And here we find out that your real reason for "caring" is that you are so thin skinned that you can't take simple "my team is better" ribbing from your friends. Yes, I'm sure you are truly injured by these "vicious" attacks. ::)
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 05:50:09 PM
No, you didn't have to be thinking you were going to wipe the floor with with everyone, but if you went into your first match EXPECTING to lose...that would be the definition of irrationally competitive. No competitor, or serious competitor that i have ever been around, EXPECTS to lose, and when they do, they don't get over it in a few hours(or less). Losing should sting, it should hurt like hell, and it shouldn't take just a few hours to move past it. MU fans have just become way to passive. No competitiveness in them. When I hear "What did you expect when we were playing the #1 team in the country, no one expected us to win". That's a defeatist attitude and reeks of small time basketball. Now if you are Morgan State and playing North Carolina, yeah, you can think that way. It's so sad how meteoric MU's fall has been, how completely irrelevant in the college BB landscape they have become, when 4 years ago, it was completely different. What's even worse is how many MU fans have accepted it, shrug their shoulders and simply say "it happens".
You realize that YOU don't actually play, right? That you make zero contribution to the game when the team is out there? If someone here doesn't expect to win, it makes absolutely no difference to the end result. You may be old but you're certainly don't behave (or write) like much of an adult.
Quote from: Nostradamus on January 10, 2017, 12:58:43 PM
Objective? Like Haanif's eFG% regressing from 54.3% after a whole season of Big East play (as a freshman) to 48.6% through cupcake season and 3 Big East games thus far this season? Granted his train wreck of turnover rate as a freshman has come down this year (and subsequently his O-Rating his "improved") since he isn't playing PG this season, as was the case, inexplicably, last season.
Pretty sure of the Four Factors most important to winning basketball games eFG% is a factor, but O-Rating is not.
Haanif's regression in eFG is concerning and absolutely affecting the team in a negative manner.
Sure his eFG% is down. He's better at rebounds, steals, assists and turnovers from last year. I don't call that regression.
Quote from: Goose on January 10, 2017, 02:08:46 PM
Lenny
As usual, you are right on target. It is funny that is difficult to agree on where we and where we want to be. IMO the single bright spot of this season is Markus Howard. I do believe he has what it takes to be a big time D1 PG. Hauser is notch down IMO, but someone worth keeping an eye on moving forward. Other than that, we are another year of no NCAA and not looking much better next year.
My biggest rub is always on where we want the program to be, and I always feel way too many excuses used on here on why we cannot be a tier 1 program. For the first time in my life I am close to throwing my arms up in the air and give up the MU ball chase. Not there yet, but getting closer quickly.
Goose
Totally agree on MH - said in early December he was (at 17) the best offensive point guard at Marquette since Diener. Also agree that Sam H can be very good. Of the sophomore class (that was ranked in the top 10) all that remains are 3 role players. Two role players in the junior class. So lots of work going forward. Hopefully among Froling, Cain, Bailey and others in the pipeline we'll find someone special.
But don't give up, Goose. We're at a tipping point and I'm hopeful things turn out OK.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 10, 2017, 01:01:04 PM
The myth of the fertile recruiting grounds of JUCO has been greatly exaggerated. We were absolutely spoiled with the quality of JUCOs we got from Buzz. Crowder, JFB, DJO, and Buycks were four of the best JUCOs not just of their time period, but of all time. Most JUCOs don't pan out at the high major level. What JUCOs was Wojo supposed to land?
Over the past two years, 247 has ranked 99 players as the top JUCOs in the country.
1 was accused of sexual assault multiple times and as such wouldn't have been welcomed at Marquette. (2015 #1 Dominic Artis, went to UTEP). 98 Left.
Of those 98, 66 have yet to average more than 20 minutes in a game. An admittedly arbitrary stat but you would think to be an impact player at Marquette that you would have averaged around 20 minutes at most programs. 32 left.
Of those 32, 4 went to low major programs (South Alabama, Eastern Illinois, Lipscomb, and Grand Canyon). Definitely not at Marquette's level, down to 28.
Of those 28, 11 went to mid major programs (Murray State, Little Rock, UTEP, Houston, Western Kentucky, Fresno State, Central Florida, Iona, Missouri State, Tulsa, and Middle Tennessee State). A couple of those might have cracked Marquette's roster and some might have even started. But most would be role players at best. Down to 17.
Of those 17, 7 went to high major programs currently ranked outside of the top 100 per KenPom (St. John's, LSU, Auburn, Washington, Rutgers, Missouri, and Washington State). Again, some might have cracked the roster, and some may have earned a starting spot, but most would be role players at Marquette, if that. 10 Left.
Here are the 10 remaining JUCOs:
2015 #11 Chris Boucher (Oregon): 25.3 minutes, 14.1 points, 7.3 rebounds, 2.9 blocks
2015 #13 Justin Leon (Florida): 21.7 minutes, 7.2 points, 3.4 rebounds, .455 3P%
2015 #23 Vladimir Brodziansky (TCU): 20.3 minutes, 11.4 points, 5.2 rebounds, .590 FG%
2015 #34 Devon Thomas (Texas Tech): 25.5 minutes, 4.9 points, 3.8 assists, 1.3 steals
2015 #50 Rasheed Brooks (Ole Miss): 23.9 minutes, 8.8 points, 3.1 rebounds, 1.1 steals
2016 #1 Jaylen Barford (Arkansas): 22.1 minutes, 10.2 points, 3.3 rebounds, .286 3P%
2016 #5 Daryl Macon (Arkansas): 24.9 minutes, 14.1 points, 2.5 assists, .391 3P%
2016 #14 Tyler Rawson (Utah): 23.5 minutes, 7.7 points, 5.2 rebounds, 0.9 blocks
2016 #22 JoJo Zamora (Utah): 25.3 minutes, 10.6 points, 1.5 assists, .434 3P%
2016 #26 Justas Furmanavicius (Ole Miss): 23.6 minutes, 6.0 points, 5.4 rebounds, 1.5 blocks
All 10 would at least be rotation players for Marquette. I would say only Boucher and Macon would be definite starters. Others might have started, really can't say. Boucher is for sure the only true impact player that was the level of JUCO that Buzz was bringing in.
Oh and all these are assuming that none of the 99 had any disciplinary or academic issues that would have kept them out (besides Artis whose case I happened to know)
This is far from a science. There is a juco or two at the mid major level that I think could have competed at Marquette, Rob Gray at Houston comes to mind, but the main point still stands. Most JUCOs are JUCOs because they aren't very good at basketball. The pool of JUCOs capable of stepping in and starting for a high major is EXTREMELY shallow. In most cases, I would rather get a freshman who has four years to develop into a starter. I would rather have Howard and Hauser than any JUCO from last year's class. There were a couple of JUCOs in the 2015 class I would have rather had than say Heldt or Anim, but only a couple.
This is interesting I wonder if the overall pool has gone down because we aren't far removed from Marshall Henderson, Jameel McKay, and Pierre Jackson in addition to our own Crowder, Butler, DJO and more. Was the Juco talent pool randomly deeper then or what I wonder is the big difference.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 10, 2017, 02:39:23 PM
This is interesting I wonder if the overall pool has gone down because we aren't far removed from Marshall Henderson, Jameel McKay, and Pierre Jackson in addition to our own Crowder, Butler, DJO and more. Was the Juco talent pool randomly deeper then or what I wonder is the big difference.
I think Buzz had an extensive Juco network that he used very well and that we have lost our objectivity because of it.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 10, 2017, 02:39:23 PM
This is interesting I wonder if the overall pool has gone down because we aren't far removed from Marshall Henderson, Jameel McKay, and Pierre Jackson in addition to our own Crowder, Butler, DJO and more. Was the Juco talent pool randomly deeper then or what I wonder is the big difference.
The difference is Buzz got the best of the best in Butler, DJO, and Crowder. He also got an injury prone Fulce, a role player in Buycks, and a nobody in Taylor. McKay was starting caliber, albeit for Iowa State.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 10, 2017, 02:39:23 PM
This is interesting I wonder if the overall pool has gone down because we aren't far removed from Marshall Henderson, Jameel McKay, and Pierre Jackson in addition to our own Crowder, Butler, DJO and more. Was the Juco talent pool randomly deeper then or what I wonder is the big difference.
I would argue that 10 out of 100 starters and 28 out of 100 at least role players isn't a terrible hit rate.
I agree with Sultan though that Buzz's hit rate may be one of the best (4 into the NBA in 6 years!)
Amended for Lazar's comment
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 10, 2017, 02:54:25 PM
I would argue that 10 out of 100 starters and 28 out of 100 at least role players isn't a terrible hit rate.
I agree with Sultan though that Buzz's hit rate may be one of the best (3 into the NBA + DJO! in 6 years)
DJO made the NBA too. Holds the distinction for most FGA without scoring a single point in his career.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on January 10, 2017, 02:18:33 PM
Sure his eFG% is down. He's better at rebounds, steals, assists and turnovers from last year. I don't call that regression.
I'd argue the 6% drop in eFG% is more adverse/regression to the team than Haanif's 0.2% improvement in Steal Rate, 4% improvement in Assist Rate, 3.5% improvement in Rebounding rate. The improved Turnover rate is beneficial of course, yet it was inflated last year due to Haanif being played out of position a great deal.
Nobody expected Haanif to become a rebounding, assist, and steals wizard coming into this season. Most expected Haanif would be a Top 3 player on this team. All of JJJ, Luke, Markus, Rowsey, and Reinhardt exceed Haanif in points per 40. He's less than 1 point per 40 ahead of Hauser and Duane. Has the lowest +/- on the team other than Reinhardt. Has the worst O-Rating on the team in conference play (with 2nd least usage on the team), and 2nd worst D-Rating.
Guess we have different viewpoints on what constitutes improvement. So, let's call it 2-2 for the original post we are debating.
Quote from: Nostradamus on January 10, 2017, 12:58:43 PM
Objective? Like Haanif's eFG% regressing from 54.3% after a whole season of Big East play (as a freshman) to 48.6% through cupcake season and 3 Big East games thus far this season? Granted his train wreck of turnover rate as a freshman has come down this year (and subsequently his O-Rating his "improved") since he isn't playing PG this season, as was the case, inexplicably, last season.
Pretty sure of the Four Factors most important to winning basketball games eFG% is a factor, but O-Rating is not.
Haanif's regression in eFG is concerning and absolutely affecting the team in a negative manner.
Did Derrick regress?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 10, 2017, 03:08:36 PM
Did Derrick regress?
No. Derrick blossomed under the tutelage of Wojo his senior year.
Quote from: Nostradamus on January 10, 2017, 03:21:55 PM
No. Derrick blossomed under the tutelage of Wojo his senior year.
Oh god.
Quote from: Nostradamus on January 10, 2017, 03:21:55 PM
No. Derrick blossomed under the tutelage of Wojo his senior year.
Good talk Nerstradamus
Did you know that John Dawson had his best year turnover wise when he played for Wojo?
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on January 10, 2017, 02:43:39 PM
I think Buzz had an extensive Juco network that he used very well and that we have lost our objectivity because of it.
I agree that's why we got those jucos but my point was to address their talent. those are a lot of high major talents all in a few years while suddenly (based on TAMU's stats) it seems like that level of juco has pretty much dried up.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 10, 2017, 09:29:50 AM
How does a #6 seeded team "epitomize" a bubble team? At least 24 at large teams were selected after us. So for part of the year, yes - but only part. And in 2014, we didn't even make the NIT. So again, for part of the year, yes.
But even worse than your bad math is totally dismissing Buzz's first year. Not a coach but a caretaker? Seriously? Tell that to Wesley Matthews, an afterthought for three years who became the 1a option in a new offense. And tell that to D James, whose role in the offense completely changed. I guess we watched entirely different teams 1n 2008-09.
We were 11-8 and the lead team mentioned in Bubble Watch every week. Thinking we weren't a bubble team all year is pure revisionist history.
And that season, after Crean's stars left, was when we became TBW. Buzz's first season was the epitome of winning with another guys players. Buzz did well with that team, but it was Crean's roster.
Quote from: muguru on January 09, 2017, 12:23:18 PM
Finally, I will guarantee you NONE of you put up with the sh*t on a daily basis that I do from badger fans that just LOVE sticking it in my face how successful their program has been and how MU sucks. Sadly, I have no comebacks, because they are right. Maybe it shouldn't be a big deal, but trust me when I tell you...the folks I hear it from(almost hourly), want nothing more than to see MU fail, and fail miserably, and take great joy in their demise. NO ONE takes the harassment I do, at least not in this kind of way, a small chiding type of way sure..but these are vicious attacks, that don't quit. It gets tiring.
Wow, this is one of the saddest things I have read in awhile. I have so many die-hard Badger fans that I am friends with, work with or am related too. I do not get any harassment from them because they know that I am a huge Marquette fan, but that my happiness in no way depends on their success. You on the other hand, bring on this harassment by making it your whole life. They know this and therefore take great pleasure in harassing you. The thing is, over the next few years as Marquette becomes once again the more dominate team in the state (yes I absolutely see this happening), you will probably be the most obnoxious harassing Marquette fan to your Badger fan friends and co-workers. I very sincerely feel sorry for your negativity and irrational thought process about the state of Marquette basketball.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 10, 2017, 05:45:22 PM
We were 11-8 and the lead team mentioned in Bubble Watch every week. Thinking we weren't a bubble team all year is pure revisionist history.
And that season, after Crean's stars left, was when we became TBW. Buzz's first season was the epitome of winning with another guys players. Buzz did well with that team, but it was Crean's roster.
Agree to disagree, Brew. At 11-8 (2-5) we were nowhere near even an NIT bubble. We got to the NCAA bubble at 14-8 (5-5) and stayed there until 19-9 (10-6) when we were safely in. So 6 games, maybe 3-4 weeks on the bubble. Seemed like forever but it wasn't.
As for 2008-09, Crean's roster, yes - but Buzz's team. If you listened to the players on senior day you know that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 10, 2017, 09:37:29 PM
Agree to disagree, Brew. At 11-8 (2-5) we were nowhere near even an NIT bubble. We got to the NCAA bubble at 14-8 (5-5) and stayed there until 19-9 (10-6) when we were safely in. So 6 games, maybe 3-4 weeks on the bubble. Seemed like forever but it wasn't.
As for 2008-09, Crean's roster, yes - but Buzz's team. If you listened to the players on senior day you know that.
No agreement, just disagree. You're flat out wrong.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17552.msg173796#msg173796
There's a quote from Andy Glockner in there when we were 11-8 saying that we were still in the mix and if we didn't make the NCAA he'd pick us to win the NIT. So nice try, but your memory is simply incorrect. We were on the bubble before and after that. We earned the Team Bubble Watch moniker that season.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AndyGlockner/status/20333381359243264
It was seven years ago, so I understand the foggy memory, but that season created the TBW meme that followed us for years to come.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 10, 2017, 10:29:07 PM
No agreement, just disagree. You're flat out wrong.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17552.msg173796#msg173796
There's a quote from Andy Glockner in there when we were 11-8 saying that we were still in the mix and if we didn't make the NCAA he'd pick us to win the NIT. So nice try, but your memory is simply incorrect. We were on the bubble before and after that. We earned the Team Bubble Watch moniker that season.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AndyGlockner/status/20333381359243264
It was seven years ago, so I understand the foggy memory, but that season created the TBW meme that followed us for years to come.
I concede I was wrong about MU not even being on the NIT bubble. 11-8 (2-5) with a 79 RPI was probably right there. But at that point we were not on the NCAA bubble. The bubble is last 4 in, first 4 out and maybe the next 4 out. Even Glockner admits that MU needed to RECOVER to make the NCAAs. If you can show me one team ever who got an at large bid with a .576 winning %, a .286 conference winning % and a 79 RPI I'll admit that on Jan 26, 2010 we were on the NCAA bubble. But you can't because a team with that resume' has never received such a bid. We won a few, got on the bubble and when those few became 9 out of 10 we were off the bubble and safely in. Team Bubble watch is a catchy, well turned phrase. But one writer saying it doesn't make it a fact.
I can't name any teams that made it with those stats (though Syracuse had about that rpi last season) but I can name dozens who had a resume like Marquette did at that point in the season who made the tournament. To me all team bubble watch meant was that we were currently out or near out of the tournament but had a reseonable chance to play ourselves in. And that's my definition. I'm not going to argue about the definition of a made up turn of phrase.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 10, 2017, 11:25:27 PM
I can't name any teams that made it with those stats (though Syracuse had about that rpi last season) but I can name dozens who had a resume like Marquette did at that point in the season who made the tournament. To me all team bubble watch meant was that we were currently out or near out of the tournament but had a reseonable chance to play ourselves in. And that's my definition. I'm not going to argue about the definition of a made up turn of phrase.
Two ways of defining "the bubble", I guess. By my definition, it's a snapshot that includes maybe the last 8 in and the first 8 out at any given time from around mid January until the end of the season. Teams move on or off (in both directions) depending on performance. Yours is much larger and more subjective - you could probably argue that there are 50 teams out now with a "reasonable" chance of playing themselves into the tournament who you would put "on the bubble" and 30+ teams who are in now with a reasonable chance of playing themselves out. Maybe it's as simple as the bubble watch is broad and the actual bubble more narrow.
The reason there is a Bubble Watch in January and that it usually includes far more teams than will actually make it is because they break down into categories. "Locks" are teams that are in and couldn't reasonably collapse to a level that would jeopardize their status. "Should be in" are teams that would be in today, but are still on the bubble and can play themselves out. And "work to do" are teams that are on the bubble but need to improve their resume to earn a bid (likely at the expense of a team in the previous category).
If you're getting a mention in these articles, it's because people that analyze brackets feel you are in a situation where you could play yourself in or out of the tournament, and are thus "on the bubble".
Regardless, any team that's considered a NIT favorite would definitely be "on the bubble" which we were virtually that entire year until probably March 2 when we beat Louisville.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 11, 2017, 08:31:46 AM
Regardless, any team that's considered a NIT favorite would definitely be "on the bubble" which we were virtually that entire year until probably March 2 when we beat Louisville.
One guy said that. One.
We have different definitions of "on the bubble". As I said to TAMU, I consider it to be a snapshot in time, including perhaps the last 8 in and the first 8 out. 11-8, 2-5, rpi of 79 wouldn't qualify. A snapshot a couple of weeks later (14-8, 5-5, rpi of 67) would. And a snapshot a few weeks after that (20-9, 11-6, rpi in the 30s) had us off he bubble again, this time in a positive direction.
As with TAMU, I recognize that your definition of "on the bubble" may be different from mine. Andrew Glockner's might be too. But that doesn't make mine (or yours) "wrong".