Quit Whining

[Loose Cannon]

Darn right.o

Did you vote Today?

[mu03eng]

brewski ...

Many folks here just don't want to acknowledge that Jay Wright fact. They either think Wright was an immediate sensation at Nova or they simply choose to ignore it because it hurts their thesis. They think Wojo should have stepped in on Day 1 and been Year 5 Wright. They don't want to acknowledge that Coach K and Calhoun and some of the other all-time greats needed time to build top programs. They say things like, "There was a reason he spent more than a decade as an assistant" without acknowledging that Izzo and Williams did the same.

And then, if we point out the facts, it means we are apologists who don't want to win.

Regarding the second statement, that was my immediate reaction. It was like the time Vikings players said, "Our run defense actually was pretty good if you take away those three runs by Sanders." But their inability to take away the three 60+ yard runs is why they got crushed.

So yes, by all means, take away our wins against Providence, Butler, Wisconsin, Creighton, Georgia and LSU, and Wojo has no good wins.

Given that the Va Tech Buzzards have followed their win over a depleted Duke team by getting blown out in consecutive games against NC State and Fla State, I guess Buzz doesn't really have that win over Duke, right?

Sometimes, folks here crack me up without trying.

But like with all things you have to filter out the crazies on both ends of the spectrum. There are folks that want to fire Wojo the first time he doesn't win by 5 just like there are folks that want to see no issues with the program whatsoever.

The majority of the "whiners", especially after a loss are in the extremist category and should be rightly ignored. However, there is reason to be concerned with this team and Wojo generally that need to be discussed. Luke Fischer has been a major problem on the defensive end all season long and Wojo seems unable to fix it. Just like JjJ's sloppiness has been a concern all season and doesn't seem to be improving. Those are certainly concerns for this season, but also concerns for long term. Haanif Cheatham seems to be following the same offensive arc this season as Sandy did last season, that gives me a little pause around Wojo's ability to develop players. When Wojo is quoted in the newspaper as being frustrated by a performance and saying his team didn't compete after essentially a bye week, that is counter to everything a Marquette team has been over the last 20 years, that is concerning.

Yes the crazies are going to be hyperbolic about a lot of this stuff, but that doesn't mean there isn't a nugget of truth or concern there. I'm still optimistic that this team makes the NCAA tournament which should shut up some of the crazies, but I get why there are crazies, there are definite areas of concern that could be potentially more than just typical growing pains of a first time coach or representative of the smoking crater Buzz left the program in.

[brewcity77]

Every year has embarrassing results:

• 2008-09 against Dayton in Chicago.
  
• 2009-10 getting blown out by Georgetown at the BET.
  
• 2010-11 No effort against St John's at home, then decimated by Louisville at the BET.
  
• 2011-12 Vanderbilt stuffing us in a wood chipper on our own court.
  
• 2012-13 Obliterated at Florida and Louisville, with a stunning Green Bay upset sandwiched in between that left Scoop apoplectic.
  
• 2013-14 Lifting the lid on the season to find a 35 point steaming turd in the toilet courtesy of Ohio State at home.

Every year under Buzz we had embarrassing games. The Amigos, the Midgets, the NCAA teams and the final season. I'd argue this loss was less damaging, against #1 on the road, than any of those. We're always good for a couple where we aren't competitive. What's important is how we respond and play over the balance of the season.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I wouldn't really call that a "bashing".  The guys on the board saying "time for Luke to graduate" are bashing him.  "Luke needs to figure it out and quick" is a realistic outlook on what it's going to take to turn this team around.

His tweet later in the thread reads: "@Matt_Velazquez he's got it in him to make this slump a turning point. Being a senior, time is ticking. #MUBB". "  Overall I think he's being very reasonable with his tweets.

This is a basketball alumni publically calling out the team and Luke specifically.  Wojo called the team out for not competing.  This was the worst (or one of the worst) defensive game statistically in our lifetimes.  Yet, we get a 287 word opus whining about the need for whiners to quit whining while the coach, basketball alumni and Pomeroy say there is a lot to whine about.  How ironic.

[mu03eng]

Every year has embarrassing results:

• 2008-09 against Dayton in Chicago.
  
• 2009-10 getting blown out by Georgetown at the BET.
  
• 2010-11 No effort against St John's at home, then decimated by Louisville at the BET.
  
• 2011-12 Vanderbilt stuffing us in a wood chipper on our own court.
  
• 2012-13 Obliterated at Florida and Louisville, with a stunning Green Bay upset sandwiched in between that left Scoop apoplectic.
  
• 2013-14 Lifting the lid on the season to find a 35 point steaming turd in the toilet courtesy of Ohio State at home.

Every year under Buzz we had embarrassing games. The Amigos, the Midgets, the NCAA teams and the final season. I'd argue this loss was less damaging, against #1 on the road, than any of those. We're always good for a couple where we aren't competitive. What's important is how we respond and play over the balance of the season.

Yeah, but the whining has been consistent every time those non-competitive events happened(Remember Western Michigan NIT home game?). The board is at least consistent in getting apoplectic around those types of loses. Your original post seems to be about the level of vitriol this time being higher (I disagree) and that overall tone of the board being more negative throughout the season (I agree it is, but not without some justification).

Keep in mind that MU was very competitive from 2000 to 2014 which spanned two coaching staffs and now we are in year 3 of a new staff that isn't as competitive in year 3 as the previous two staffs were. Fair or not, the program is measurably behind the pace previously experienced, that's going to lead to unhappiness and concern. I think a fair amount is over the top, but not all of it.

[g0lden3agle]

This is a basketball alumni publically calling out the team and Luke specifically.  Wojo called the team out for not competing.  This was the worst (or one of the worst) defensive game statistically in our lifetimes.  Yet, we get a 287 word opus whining about the need for whiners to quit whining while the coach, basketball alumni and Pomeroy say there is a lot to whine about.  How ironic.

I guess I just put all the things that you just mentioned in the "reasonable critiquing" category.  The (probably futile) purpose of this thread was to address the comments on the board that are creeping more towards the irrational (fire Wojo/Luke and JjJ and just graduate already).

[Galway Eagle]

Yeah, but the whining has been consistent every time those non-competitive events happened(Remember Western Michigan NIT home game?). The board is at least consistent in getting apoplectic around those types of loses. Your original post seems to be about the level of vitriol this time being higher (I disagree) and that overall tone of the board being more negative throughout the season (I agree it is, but not without some justification).

Keep in mind that MU was very competitive from 2000 to 2014 which spanned two coaching staffs and now we are in year 3 of a new staff that isn't as competitive in year 3 as the previous two staffs were. Fair or not, the program is measurably behind the pace previously experienced, that's going to lead to unhappiness and concern. I think a fair amount is over the top, but not all of it.

I wasn't on here in 08-09 after Buzz lost to Dayton, but were people bouncing off the walls freaking out?

[mu03eng]

I wasn't on here in 08-09 after Buzz lost to Dayton, but were people bouncing off the walls freaking out?

Basically the place looked like this

[Norm]

For folks making the Jay Wright comparisons, Jay made the NIT in his first 3 years as head coach at Villanova, then made the NCAA Sweet 16 in his 4th year. The next four years Nova went Elite Eight, First Round, Sweet 16, and then Final Four.

If Marquette can at least make the NIT this post-season, then I think some of the worries about Wojo would lessen some. I think that is still a long shot at this point in time, though, as I do not think the Marquette's roster matches up well against the top half of the Big East (Nova, Creighton, Xavier, Butler, Seton Hall).

[Let's Go Warriors]

brewski ...

Many folks here just don't want to acknowledge that Jay Wright fact. They either think Wright was an immediate sensation at Nova or they simply choose to ignore it because it hurts their thesis. They think Wojo should have stepped in on Day 1 and been Year 5 Wright. They don't want to acknowledge that Coach K and Calhoun and some of the other all-time greats needed time to build top programs. They say things like, "There was a reason he spent more than a decade as an assistant" without acknowledging that Izzo and Williams did the same.

And then, if we point out the facts, it means we are apologists who don't want to win.

Regarding the second statement, that was my immediate reaction. It was like the time Vikings players said, "Our run defense actually was pretty good if you take away those three runs by Sanders." But their inability to take away the three 60+ yard runs is why they got crushed.

So yes, by all means, take away our wins against Providence, Butler, Wisconsin, Creighton, Georgia and LSU, and Wojo has no good wins.

Given that the Va Tech Buzzards have followed their win over a depleted Duke team by getting blown out in consecutive games against NC State and Fla State, I guess Buzz doesn't really have that win over Duke, right?

Sometimes, folks here crack me up without trying.

I can tell you thats not my issue.  My issue is to this point I believe that Wojo cant teach defense.  Also, I dont get those that assume if Wojo is successful that he would stay.  And if we are to believe the time frame put forth by those on the long term plan bandwagon that will come in year five.  So MU could have 1 good year out of 6 and at that time we could easily lose Wojo...

Cant say that for sure but you can say it wont happen either.

So at that time its  likely we have 1 good season out of 6 and could be rebuilding again.  I dont like those odds.  If MU was going to go the long term route and we were to be patient maybe a guy like Wardle should have been the choice with the clear message to the fan base that this would take time but would solidify the program long term.

I dont see any guarantee that Wojo even if successful would stay and that we should pursue a 15 year plan with him.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Wojo would have to have one hell of a year to jump to a program better than MU if he had 1 good year out of 6.

[Let's Go Warriors]

Wojo would have to have one hell of a year to jump to a program better than MU if he had 1 good year out of 6.

Really?  Isnt he already on the short list for Duke?

[Loose Cannon]

Really?  Isnt he already on the short list for Duke?

Consider the writer of those articles.  Absolutely not, go to the DBR board and they will laugh you off it.

[GGGG]

As one of the more vocal posters around I feel like I should chime in here. What bothers me more than anything is people thinking we can't have high expectations. Why the hell shouldn't we?? It also bothers me to no end the people that are content with where the program is right now. That tells me those people never played sports, or if they did, just did it for fun, and have NO level of competitiveness whatsoever. That just baffles me. Every fan, should NOT be okay with a loss, ever. Yes, they happen, I get that, but to just "accept it" shrug your shoulders and instantly move on?? I will NEVER understand that thinking. Ever. Whether you voice your frustrations here, or do it privately, you SHOULD be angry, you should be frustrated, you should be wondering if this program will ever achieve the levels it was at not that long ago.

People who truly get "angry" over how their sports teams are performing, should probably get some perspective in life. 

[hdog1017]

I'm not going to lose any sleep after losing to the #1 team in the nation (temporarily #1), who are also the defending national champs, at home after coming off their first loss in roughly 20 games. 

I'll have a different reaction if they lose to Seton Hall at home in a couple of days. 

[brewcity77]

Yeah, but the whining has been consistent every time those non-competitive events happened(Remember Western Michigan NIT home game?). The board is at least consistent in getting apoplectic around those types of loses. Your original post seems to be about the level of vitriol this time being higher (I disagree) and that overall tone of the board being more negative throughout the season (I agree it is, but not without some justification).

Keep in mind that MU was very competitive from 2000 to 2014 which spanned two coaching staffs and now we are in year 3 of a new staff that isn't as competitive in year 3 as the previous two staffs were. Fair or not, the program is measurably behind the pace previously experienced, that's going to lead to unhappiness and concern. I think a fair amount is over the top, but not all of it.

All the Buzz comparisons and "Wojo isn't this" or "Wojo isn't that" complaints make it seem like bad times never happened before he came. That's what led, in my opinion, to the entitled pissing and moaning.

The two worst things that happened to our program of late were Buzz making the tourney in 2010 with a team nobody expected anything out of, which convinced our fanbase the postseason is our divine right and the ascension of Wisconsin, which created jealousy when our cross state rivals outperform us.

Our defense plays well against Georgetown and Seton Hall, then we fly into a "Wojo can't coach" panic when maybe the best offense in the country has their best game of the season against us. Luke and JJ lead us in SOTGs, yet we want them gone because of one uninspired loss.

I suppose I'm whining about the whining as much as the whiners are whining about the game, but jeez, last I checked the sun still rose the past couple days and we've still got half a season to play.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Really?  Isnt he already on the short list for Duke?

No. Duke will have their pick future HOF coaches, NBA coaches, the top young up and coming coaches, not to mention Jeff Capel who is getting an audition this year. Only way Wojo gets that job is if he builds Marquette into a regular top 25 team or he leads them to a Final Four (or both).

Now, the coach to follow a legend often fails. If that happens, Wojo might be the guy to take over for that guy. But again, only if he's successful.

With the back surgery happening this year I wonder how many years K actually has left.

[Let's Go Warriors]

No. Duke will have their pick future HOF coaches, NBA coaches, the top young up and coming coaches, not to mention Jeff Capel who is getting an audition this year. Only way Wojo gets that job is if he builds Marquette into a regular top 25 team or he leads them to a Final Four (or both).

Now, the coach to follow a legend often fails. If that happens, Wojo might be the guy to take over for that guy. But again, only if he's successful.

With the back surgery happening this year I wonder how many years K actually has left.

I guess Im just going off of what alot are saying here that he already has been successful. So maybe its technically 5 out of 6 good seasons but with only 1 NCAA tournament bid...

[Marcus92]

Also, I dont get those that assume if Wojo is successful that he would stay.

This is true of any coach. Rick Pitino, Brad Stevens and others left for the NBA after building successful programs. That's the price that comes with hiring good coaches — they'll be in high demand elsewhere. But there are plenty of examples of coaches who stick around for the long term.

At the highest level: Jim Boeheim (41 years at Syracuse), Coach K (37 years at Duke), Tom Izzo (22 years at Michigan State), even Roy Williams and Bill Self (14 years at UNC and Kansas, respectively, which is longer than Al McGuire's tenure at Marquette).

Longevity isn't just reserved for the blue bloods: Mark Few (18 years at Gonzaga), Mike Brey (17 years at Notre Dame), and of course, Jay Wright (16 years at Villanova).

If you don't think Wojo has what it takes to be successful at Marquette, that's one thing. But if you're worried about both the possibility that he'll be fired after 4-5 wasted seasons and the possibility that he'll leave after getting us back to the Final Four, then you're pretty much guaranteed to be miserable no matter what.

[MU82]

But like with all things you have to filter out the crazies on both ends of the spectrum. There are folks that want to fire Wojo the first time he doesn't win by 5 just like there are folks that want to see no issues with the program whatsoever.

The majority of the "whiners", especially after a loss are in the extremist category and should be rightly ignored. However, there is reason to be concerned with this team and Wojo generally that need to be discussed. Luke Fischer has been a major problem on the defensive end all season long and Wojo seems unable to fix it. Just like JjJ's sloppiness has been a concern all season and doesn't seem to be improving. Those are certainly concerns for this season, but also concerns for long term. Haanif Cheatham seems to be following the same offensive arc this season as Sandy did last season, that gives me a little pause around Wojo's ability to develop players. When Wojo is quoted in the newspaper as being frustrated by a performance and saying his team didn't compete after essentially a bye week, that is counter to everything a Marquette team has been over the last 20 years, that is concerning.

Yes the crazies are going to be hyperbolic about a lot of this stuff, but that doesn't mean there isn't a nugget of truth or concern there. I'm still optimistic that this team makes the NCAA tournament which should shut up some of the crazies, but I get why there are crazies, there are definite areas of concern that could be potentially more than just typical growing pains of a first time coach or representative of the smoking crater Buzz left the program in.

As usual, mu03, you're too damn reasonable. How am I supposed to get a perfectly good rant going?

In complaining about those on the extreme, I probably sound like somebody on the extreme. Something for me to work on.

I also fall into the category of "I'm passionate about Marquette hoops and I very much want to win, but it's still only basketball and not real life."

Go Warriors!

[mu_hilltopper]

MU Scoop has been online for a decade, and three things are certain:  We haven't won ten national championships in that stretch, there are people who complain, and people who complain about the complainers.

The trick is to figure out where we are, to find out the legitimacy of the two groups as time passes.  Complaining about losing an Elite 8 game = not legit.   Frankly, complaining about getting beat by the #1 team = not legit.   Complaining about not being competitive / not making the dance == ??

You could grossly simplify MU's program path that .. the 70s were our glory years, followed by 20 odd years in the wilderness, with the 2000s getting us back on the road to, and finding national promience again. 

For the love of all that's holy, it's not that we got stomped by the #1 team, even as Dr. B pointed out, the game was the worst defensive effort in our lifetimes .. the game showed that while there's 9 weeks to Selection Sunday, our lack of competitiveness indicates yet another bottom-half BE finish, a 4th straight sad Selection Sunday.   

Because of the 2000s era, I define missing the NCCAs as the wilderness, (and I guess that makes me an "entitled fan.")  How deep we are into that wilderness is likely 4 seasons.   Are we getting closer to the path?   I'd say we have a 20% chance of making the Dance this year and 50% next year, so "OK," we're finding our way. 

We can quibble about those guesses somewhat, but I think they are pretty fair.  I'd hope for higher than 50% for 2019, but honestly nothing so far has indicated dramatic improvement.

Can we all agree a coin flip is NO WHERE we want to be for our 5th+ year to just make it to the first round? 

[MU82]

This is true of any coach. Rick Pitino, Brad Stevens and others left for the NBA after building successful programs. That's the price that comes with hiring good coaches — they'll be in high demand elsewhere. But there are plenty of examples of coaches who stick around for the long term.

At the highest level: Jim Boeheim (41 years at Syracuse), Coach K (37 years at Duke), Tom Izzo (22 years at Michigan State), even Roy Williams and Bill Self (14 years at UNC and Kansas, respectively, which is longer than Al McGuire's tenure at Marquette).

Longevity isn't just reserved for the blue bloods: Mark Few (18 years at Gonzaga), Mike Brey (17 years at Notre Dame), and of course, Jay Wright (16 years at Villanova).

If you don't think Wojo has what it takes to be successful at Marquette, that's one thing. But if you're worried about both the possibility that he'll be fired after 4-5 wasted seasons and the possibility that he'll leave after getting us back to the Final Four, then you're pretty much guaranteed to be miserable no matter what.

This.

Would Let's Go Warriors be happier if we had Shaka and if we were 7-8 right now (as he is with Texas) and he then turned things around to make the NCAAs next season and if Duke nabbed him then?

I mean, how does any school "guarantee" that its coach stays for X number of years? Silly.

[Let's Go Warriors]

This.

Would Let's Go Warriors be happier if we had Shaka and if we were 7-8 right now (as he is with Texas) and he then turned things around to make the NCAAs next season and if Duke nabbed him then?

I mean, how does any school "guarantee" that its coach stays for X number of years? Silly.

This post is obnoxious.  I said if we were going to put in a 15 year plan we should have maybe gone with a guy like Wardle.  Kind of the exact opposite of how you responded...

Silly

[GGGG]

This post is obnoxious.  I said if we were going to put in a 15 year plan we should have maybe gone with a guy like Wardle.  Kind of the exact opposite of how you responded...

Silly

I am all for stability in coaching hires, but Wardle hadn't really done enough to be under consideration at that point.

[RushmoreAcademy]

I'm late to the game but great original post brewcity. Loved it!