MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: PuertoRicanNightmare on March 24, 2023, 08:41:10 PM
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That’s all.
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Same sentiment as 30+ other teams.
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We made it 16.6% of the way. We had a ways to go. Hoping there will be a lot of years we will have a chance. We weren’t that close this year unfortunately.
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Creighton, Xavier and UCONN all still playing ... painful to watch!
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Creighton, Xavier and UCONN all still playing ... painful to watch!
It's very tough WarriorHal.
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Lack of any dominant team(s) this year. It was there for the taking. We didn’t capitalize. I still think we are going to learn that Tyler’s injury was much more severe than indicated.
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Wasn't to be. Once Tyler got hurt that lowered the ceiling.
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Yes. I dominant teams all the 1s out . But I think the TK injury was key. And the team was off because it it. But TK says no.
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Same sentiment as 30+ other teams.
You make it sound like Marquette was a 9 seed hoping it get hot.
They were certainly one of the top 10 teams in the country that played their worst game of the season on the wrong night.
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You make it sound like Marquette was a 9 seed hoping it get hot.
They were certainly one of the top 10 teams in the country that played their worst game of the season on the wrong night.
I agree with this analysis. Tower's belief that our performance against MSU wasn't an outlier/turd is silly, but instead a byproduct of amazing coaching by Mr. March, Tom Izzo is ultimately wrong.
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You make it sound like Marquette was a 9 seed hoping it get hot.
They were certainly one of the top 10 teams in the country that played their worst game of the season on the wrong night.
I am saying that looking at the bracket as it currently is, about 30 teams are looking at it and thinking they could have won it.
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You make it sound like Marquette was a 9 seed hoping it get hot.
They were certainly one of the top 10 teams in the country that played their worst game of the season on the wrong night.
We are in good company, hey?
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I’ve felt the same many times watching since we lost. Very disappointing. But the boys deserved to lose the game they lost. Just didn’t show up.
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The team playing best right now is UCONN and we beat them, what? Two weeks ago? In a de facto road game. MSU was no better than Providence, probably worse. That guard from KSU is a fun player but we are a much better team than them. This loss is going to haunt us.
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It’ll only haunt those who let themselves be haunted. Shaka and the guys wish like hell they had done better Sunday, but it’s sports.
One of the good things about sports, though, is you get to try again tomorrow or next week or next year.
In back to back years, Virginia suffered the indignity of losing to a 16 seed and then winning the national title. They weren’t haunted; they used it as fuel.
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I agree with you.
But everyone mourns and processes differently.
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Back in ‘82, I could throw a football over a mountain
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Back in ‘82, I could throw a football over a mountain
If coach had put me in, we would’ve won state.
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If dog rabbit.
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Back in ‘82, I could throw a football over a mountain
Coach shoulda put you in fourth quarter
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Back in ‘82, I could throw a football over a mountain
I thought you were Spicoli back in 82.
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I thought you were Spicoli back in 82.
Would explain a lot
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Tower is spot on. I don't get why you people do this to yourselves. Maybe we all need to wear black until the tourney is over.
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Tower is spot on. I don't get why you people do this to yourselves. Maybe we all need to wear black until the tourney is over.
I've already been doing this. Even have the cursed black jerseys to wear. All black until November
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Back in ‘82, I could throw a football over a mountain
Now your selling herbal breast enhancements.
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Tower is spot on. I don't get why you people do this to yourselves. Maybe we all need to wear black until the tourney is over.
Personally, it’s because you just can’t assume Marquette is going to be automatically better next year.
Injuries, transfers, other teams around the country improving. It was as good of an opportunity as I’ve seen in my lifetime and you have to take advantage of them.
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Tower is spot on. I don't get why you people do this to yourselves. Maybe we all need to wear black until the tourney is over.
What do you mean “you people”???
Oh, you mean masochistic turds on Scoop. On brand.
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Watching Houston & Bama go down has shaken me to my core.
I was fully healed yesterday but now I’m back in the ICU and the doctors are wearing hazmats suits.
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It was as good of an opportunity as I’ve seen in my lifetime and you have to take advantage of them.
This is what will haunt us. As good as we were this year and to play the way we played against MSU is just…something. I still can’t believe how bad we looked. That regional was as easy a path as we will ever have. I’m not advocating jumping off buildings, but the “oh well” tone on this board seem a bit odd. This is a Marquette basketball board and this team had a legit chance to win the National Championship. We have never had a better opportunity…including in 2003. This was it.
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Like the old Pittsburgh Steelers, our motto next year should be "Win one for the thumb".
Too soon?
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Yes, we could have. This should be a great motivation for the team next year.
Seeing two fellow big east teams in the elite eight.
Just goes to show, everything needs to click and a little luck to win it all.
Al had better teams than the 76-77, but everything clicked and Jerome Whitehead's tip in against Charlotte was the luck.
Can't see how people can dispare with what the team accomplished this year.
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We picked a bad day to have a bad day.
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This is what will haunt us. As good as we were this year and to play the way we played against MSU is just…something. I still can’t believe how bad we looked. That regional was as easy a path as we will ever have. I’m not advocating jumping off buildings, but the “oh well” tone on this board seem a bit odd. This is a Marquette basketball board and this team had a legit chance to win the National Championship. We have never had a better opportunity…including in 2003. This was it.
2014 Villanova says hello. 1994 UConn says hello
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We discussed this concept earlier in the season, the would you rather.
It’s always better to discuss these things before the actual emotion of the events happen, meaning before the titles come or the tournament exit comes.
It should have been fairly obvious that the exit would come, because the odds of a Final Four run were always going to be less than the odds of losing before it.
That will be the case nearly every season, no matter the seed.
Not saying it can’t happen, as it does, but more often than not for most teams it doesn’t.
That said, at the time I said I would take a BE Championship (Reg season) over a first round win, but a sweet 16 trip over a BE Title.
I’ve changed my mind on that. Maybe it’s because of the way things shook out, or maybe it’s because of the double title with the conference tournament, which admittedly I didn’t really consider at the time because I was just hoping for a regular season title.
I think I would take a regular season and conference tournament championship over a sweet 16 trip, but an Elite 8 appearance over the regular season and conference tournament accolades.
When you get to the Elite 8 you are one game away from the coveted Final Four appearance. You’ve spent the entire week prior in anticipation of the games ahead and you’ve won the Sweet 16 game so you feel good and now the stage is set.
Losing the sweet 16 game on Th or Fri is just kind of a bummer.
So, there’s my newly revised final answer.
Elite 8 or better >>> anything in the regular season and conference tournaments, including a combined double championship.
Otherwise, give me the 20 game gauntlet and a memorable full season over a few wins in March.
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Tower is spot on. I don't get why you people do this to yourselves. Maybe we all need to wear black until the tourney is over.
Screw wearing black. I buried my Marquette scarf and socks in our yard and made a nice little "RIP Marquette 2023 NCAA Tourney" marker out of wood. I feel much better now. The marker will rot and disappear quickly, as I deliberately chose cheap, porous wood so that the loss will not be a long-lasting reminder.
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We discussed this concept earlier in the season, the would you rather.
It’s always better to discuss these things before the actual emotion of the events happen, meaning before the titles come or the tournament exit comes.
It should have been fairly obvious that the exit would come, because the odds of a Final Four run were always going to be less than the odds of losing before it.
That will be the case nearly every season, no matter the seed.
Not saying it can’t happen, as it does, but more often than not for most teams it doesn’t.
That said, at the time I said I would take a BE Championship (Reg season) over a first round win, but a sweet 16 trip over a BE Title.
I’ve changed my mind on that. Maybe it’s because of the way things shook out, or maybe it’s because of the double title with the conference tournament, which admittedly I didn’t really consider at the time because I was just hoping for a regular season title.
I think I would take a regular season and conference tournament championship over a sweet 16 trip, but an Elite 8 appearance over the regular season and conference tournament accolades.
When you get to the Elite 8 you are one game away from the coveted Final Four appearance. You’ve spent the entire week prior in anticipation of the games ahead and you’ve won the Sweet 16 game so you feel good and now the stage is set.
Losing the sweet 16 game on Th or Fri is just kind of a bummer.
So, there’s my newly revised final answer.
Elite 8 or better >>> anything in the regular season and conference tournaments, including a combined double championship.
Otherwise, give me the 20 game gauntlet and a memorable full season over a few wins in March.
Short version - would you rather have Marquette season this year or UConn’s if they lose today.
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Short version - would you rather have Marquette season this year or UConn’s if they lose today.
UConn.
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Marquette's
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Short version - would you rather have Marquette season this year or UConn’s if they lose today.
Marquette
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Screw wearing black. I buried my Marquette scarf and socks in our yard and made a nice little "RIP Marquette 2023 NCAA Tourney" marker out of wood. I feel much better now. The marker will rot and disappear quickly, as I deliberately chose cheap, porous wood so that the loss will not be a long-lasting reminder.
I took down my 1977 Warriors pennant in my living room so I wasn’t reminded of this disastrous season
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Short version - would you rather have Marquette season this year or UConn’s if they lose today.
UCONN wins: UCONN
UCONN loses: MU
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We made it 16.6% of the way. We had a ways to go. Hoping there will be a lot of years we will have a chance. We weren’t that close this year unfortunately.
Meanwhile, Creighton is still dancing. Some on this board cant stand McDermott as a coach and some on this board debated the wisdom of including Creighton in the newly organized Beast back in the day.
We had an excellent path to Houston this year and blew it. Tough to get over that.
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Short version - would you rather have Marquette season this year or UConn’s if they lose today.
Marquette for sure.
If UConn makes the final four, I'm undecided.
If UConn makes the national championship game, then UConn for sure.
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Marquette for sure.
If UConn makes the final four, I'm undecided.
If UConn makes the national championship game, then UConn for sure.
UConn makes the Final Four, their season. Winning it all? No debate. Anyone saying otherwise at that point is an idiot
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UConn makes the Final Four, their season. Winning it all? No debate. Anyone saying otherwise at that point is an idiot
Final four trumps all.
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I definitely would rather have UCONN's season whether they win or lose today. Fair or not you are measured by tournament results. This was an incredible opportunity that didn't go our way. Now, I have no doubt we will be put in an excellent position to succeed in the tournament for many years to come. That said getting a 2 seed hasn't happened very often for MU. The path was right there to make a deep run and it hurts. It primarily stings because we played so poorly whether TyKo was injured or not. I will say that we can take some solace in the likelihood that dominant NCAA teams could be rare in the immediate future.
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UConn makes the Final Four, their season. Winning it all? No debate. Anyone saying otherwise at that point is an idiot
So everyone is an idiot if they don't agree with you? I see.
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I definitely would rather have UCONN's season whether they win or lose today. Fair or not you are measured by tournament results. This was an incredible opportunity that didn't go our way. Now, I have no doubt we will be put in an excellent position to succeed in the tournament for many years to come. That said getting a 2 seed hasn't happened very often for MU. The path was right there to make a deep run and it hurts. It primarily stings because we played so poorly whether TyKo was injured or not. I will say that we can take some solace in the likelihood that dominant NCAA teams could be rare in the immediate future.
Maybe. I think it’s hard to know at the moment. Between covid and the transfer rule change, there’s probably an adjustment period. Once things return to the new normal and the covid players are gone, I bet we see dominant teams again
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So everyone is an idiot if they don't agree with you? I see.
If you say Marquette had a better season if UConn wins a natty? Hell yeah.
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In 2003 did Kentucky have a better season than Marquette?
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Personally, it’s because you just can’t assume Marquette is going to be automatically better next year.
We also just cant assume that the team we saw in February was gonna magically return had they beaten MSU.
This team had some real struggles on offense in postseason play, Kam's heater aside. Throw in the fact that our point guards had two healthy hands between them, I guess I just don't see where the run was coming from.
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If you say Marquette had a better season if UConn wins a natty? Hell yeah.
Oh...maybe I misread what you wrote.
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:-X
In 2003 did Kentucky have a better season than Marquette?
That’s a good question. Undisputed top-seed entering the tournament. Top-5 offense and defense. Long winning streak until DWade.
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We also just cant assume that the team we saw in February was gonna magically return had they beaten MSU.
This team had some real struggles on offense in postseason play, Kam's heater aside. Throw in the fact that our point guards had two healthy hands between them, I guess I just don't see where the run was coming from.
I mean assuming out 4 top guys are back I think we,'ll definitely be better. You're right that we had some offensive woes down the stretch but I definitely see significant growth from od players once November comes around. In particular I think Ross and Gold will be much better. I honestly think everyone will be better. That's not to say TyKo can do more individually than he did ymthis season but he will be back with vengeance. Marquette is positioned to be really good for a long time.
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I mean assuming our 4 top guys are back I think we,'ll definitely be better. You're right that we had some offensive woes down the stretch but I definitely see significant growth from all of our players once November comes around. In particular I think Ross and Gold will be much better. I honestly think everyone will be better. That's not to say TyKo can do more individually than he did this season but he will be back with vengeance. Marquette is positioned to be really good for a long time.
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I'm with ya, Muggs. If we run it back with this group I feel great about next season.
I was just saying that the assumption cuts both ways. Just as nothing's guaranteed for next season, it surely isn't in the tournament. Yes, objectively Marquette's best is as good or better than the remaining 8 teams. But stuff happens and we shouldn't let this weekend's results color what was going on with the team.
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I'm with ya, Muggs. If we run it back with this group I feel great about next season.
I was just saying that the assumption cuts both ways. Just as nothing's guaranteed for next season, it surely isn't in the tournament. Yes, objectively Marquette's best is as good or better than the remaining 8 teams. But stuff happens and we shouldn't let this weekend's results color what was going on with the team.
I couldn't agree more. I think our best this year was right there with any team in the country. I do think though, regardless if TyKo was injured or not, we have to collectively alleviate some of the pressure he felt late in the year to take over games. Still, I think we will be much better next year with our core coming back and a few additional pieces. Oso/Gold wil both be better and is one main key. Defensively overall I think we'll be better.
This team won 29 games and the BEast regular season and tournament for a reason. Obviously getting a serviceable big and perhaps a knock-down shooter would help but barring injuries or defections I forsee MU being a top 5 team and extremely motivated. If we can get our 3-Ball percentage closer to 40% that's bad news for the rest of the teams in the country.
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I couldn't agree more. I think our best this year was right there with any team in the country. I do think though, regardless if TyKo was injured or not, we have to collectively alleviate some of the pressure he felt late in the year to take over games. Still, I think we will be much better next year with our core coming back and a few additional pieces. Oso/Gold wil both be better and is one main key. Defensively overall I think we'll be better.
This team won 29 games and the BEast regular season and tournament for a reason. Obviously getting a serviceable big and perhaps a knock-down shooter would help but barring injuries or defections I forsee MU being a top 5 team and extremely motivated. If we can get our 3-Ball percentage closer to 40% that's bad news for the rest of the teams in the country.
I also like how we are trending for next season. I know it probably won’t happen, but I’d still like to see us develop a serviceable mid-range game. I’ve seen several team successfully use this during the tournament and think it would really help against teams that pack it in.
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Assuming Ben stays and develops in a manner similar to the last year's returnees, MU will have a serviceable back up big.
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Yes. I dominant teams all the 1s out . But I think the TK injury was key. And the team was off because it it. But TK says no.
Maybe. I think our size was a problem. MSU has so many second chance points.
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I would say how the tournament has unfolding has shown how difficult it is to win in March. The way things have gone in NCAA, it looks to me that there are 20+ other teams that probably feel they let it slip away as well. Definitely still very disappointed with the loss and having a hard time watching the games the last two days.
I will add, if this season would have been year three of the Shaka era and not year two, I would be off the charts disappointed. I think last week for the first time all season the stage was too big for the guys, especially the second half. I have always been in NCAA matters most and the bar has been raised again for next season. If the core of the team is back, the goal has to be winning in March. They put themselves in position this year and did not take advantage of it and hope it was a hard lesson that they learned from.
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I would say how the tournament has unfolding has shown how difficult it is to win in March. The way things have gone in NCAA, it looks to me that there are 20+ other teams that probably feel they let it slip away as well. Definitely still very disappointed with the loss and having a hard time watching the games the last two days.
I will add, if this season would have been year three of the Shaka era and not year two, I would be off the charts disappointed. I think last week for the first time all season the stage was too big for the guys, especially the second half. I have always been in NCAA matters most and the bar has been raised again for next season. If the core of the team is back, the goal has to be winning in March. They put themselves in position this year and did not take advantage of it and hope it was a hard lesson that they learned from.
The common thread for most of the remaining teams is that they are veteran laden teams - our relative inexperience showed up once it got to a one and done scenario.
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I would say how the tournament has unfolding has shown how difficult it is to win in March. The way things have gone in NCAA, it looks to me that there are 20+ other teams that probably feel they let it slip away as well. Definitely still very disappointed with the loss and having a hard time watching the games the last two days.
I will add, if this season would have been year three of the Shaka era and not year two, I would be off the charts disappointed. I think last week for the first time all season the stage was too big for the guys, especially the second half. I have always been in NCAA matters most and the bar has been raised again for next season. If the core of the team is back, the goal has to be winning in March. They put themselves in position this year and did not take advantage of it and hope it was a hard lesson that they learned from.
Whether we all agree this was the right approach or not, Shaka never put any on court expectations on this team for the first 2 years. It was always “all culture first 2 years” and “grow as much as anyone in the country” when asked about expectations. I genuinely don’t think they had any concrete or tangible on court goals these first 2 years.
I’d imagine many (including myself) sort of rolled their eyes at the “culture” talk when Shaka got here but it turned out alright. We were treated to 2 NCAA appearances, an NCAA win, a BE regular season and tournament championship, and a fantastic group of players that all have multiple years of eligibility remaining heading into year 3.
The culture has been well established and the stage is set for some massive success in year 3. I think we’re right on track and ready for lift off next year.
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CountryRoad
I think they adjusted on court expectations as the season progressed, but it was likely to win the next game. There seemed to be a lot more urgency as the season moved on, but hard to adjust on the fly. IMO, that may have caused some of the nerves last Sunday.
If the guys are back next season, my guess is that playing to win it all will be part of their expectations.
The good news for the program, while building that culture in two years, they learned how to win along the way. I think that loss to MSU is the catalyst to bigger things next season.
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I mean assuming out 4 top guys are back I think we,'ll definitely be better. You're right that we had some offensive woes down the stretch but I definitely see significant growth from od players once November comes around. In particular I think Ross and Gold will be much better. I honestly think everyone will be better. That's not to say TyKo can do more individually than he did ymthis season but he will be back with vengeance. Marquette is positioned to be really good for a long time.
I think he was referring to the team magically playing better in this tournament if they had gotten by MSU.
One factor that I think got glossed over in the euphoria of winning the BET is that this was a VERY young team, especially with all of the extra years of eligibility coming from COVID. How many teams that have been advancing have guys in their fifth and sixth years of eligibility (see Hauser, Joey) and might have been hand picked as transfers to supplement a team.
If you articulate these things before the games are played, the COLE cards come flying out of the woodwork. But, everyone seems to nod their understanding that with the parity in CBB these days, every game in the tournament (except maybe the first round for the higher seeds) is likely to produce a difficult opponent. Then they seem suddenly surprised when it actually plays out that way.
Even if a team is good enough to have a 60% chance of beating any team in the field, the probability of actually winning 5 games in a row against those teams is a mere 8%. I don’t think MU’s chances of winning the tournament were ever that high.
So, yes, the disappointment that MU bowed out when they did is understandable, and I think everyone here feels it, in part because it means no national title, but maybe more in some cases because it means no more games.
I’d like to think that MU can get the program to a point where they will be perennial contenders for the BE title, consistently finish in the top part of the conference, and make the NCAA tournament comfortably almost every year with no Selection Sunday bubble drama. If they do that there will be more opportunities like this season and maybe one will blossom into a Final Four or maybe even a championship. If they don’t, maybe the banners will remind fans how much fun this season was.
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CountryRoad
I think they adjusted on court expectations as the season progressed, but it was likely to win the next game. There seemed to be a lot more urgency as the season moved on, but hard to adjust on the fly. IMO, that may have caused some of the nerves last Sunday.
If the guys are back next season, my guess is that playing to win it all will be part of their expectations.
The good news for the program, while building that culture in two years, they learned how to win along the way. I think that loss to MSU is the catalyst to bigger things next season.
This is a very rough analogy Goose, but I think that this season was like anyone's teen years, when we all experienced fast growth both physically and personally with inevitable growing pains in both spheres. If taken in that light, I think the loss to MSU becomes easier to comprehend and accept.
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It was a great year with a disappointing end.
Big East double champions is a tremendous accomplishment.
BE POY and COY, plus some other individual hardware is good stuff.
Full Fiserv Forum games are tremendously fun.
The future looks good for MU hoops.
The overarching thing for me is that after Wojo-inspired apathy, I am fully re-engaged with Marquette Basketball.
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I’m still struggling to wrap my head around how many of you would prefer a conference title to an elite 8.
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MU was built this season on a team concept, where the whole was greater than the sum of the parts. We literally had no injuries all season long, other than Kam's brief hip pointer. It was unfortunate, that our team leader severely injured his thumb in the Vermont game to the point he could not be effective. Injuries happen. It happened back in the day to Dom. Last year Nova was positioned to maybe get another Natty and Justin Moore blew out his Achilles.
Winning Conference Titles and Conference Tournaments is how a team can earn a high seed and be in a good position to make a tournament run. Our coaches and team figured out how to do that.
Now we go to the next phase, which is to make it a repeatable process.
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This is what will haunt us. As good as we were this year and to play the way we played against MSU is just…something. I still can’t believe how bad we looked. That regional was as easy a path as we will ever have. I’m not advocating jumping off buildings, but the “oh well” tone on this board seem a bit odd. This is a Marquette basketball board and this team had a legit chance to win the National Championship. We have never had a better opportunity…including in 2003. This was it.
Who is "us"?
If you've read this thread and others since the loss, you will have seen a variety of reactions, from a few Scoopers being "haunted," to many (the majority IMHO) being disappointed but pragmatic and looking forward to next season.
I can't speak for others, but for me it's not "oh well." It's:
Though I was really disappointed with how the season ended, I can't do a damn thing about the loss to Michigan State now. And I truly enjoyed this season, and I'm really optimistic about next season. So for me, personally, to be "haunted" by the season's end would be silly and unproductive. We Are Marquette!
But you and others certainly are free to be haunted by it for the next month or next year or next decade or the rest of your life, if that's how you have to process it.
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Sean Jones
Emarion Ellis
Zach Wrightsil
All injuries. E and W affected depth, at a minimum, Herman.
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Sean Jones
Emarion Ellis
Zach Wrightsil
All injuries. E and W affected depth, at a minimum, Herman.
I would say the Ellis and Wrightsil injuries are about as low as possible on the issues of this season.
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Like most things, I can argue either side. For example, what if EE made the same progress as the rest of the returnees? What would the season have been like with an another athletic 6'5 player with some PG skills? Or an experienced 6'6 glue guy in the Mitchell mold, but with rebounding experience?
The counter is that if they had been healthy and played, it probably would have meant less PT for the rest of the bench players.
And, 29-7.
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I also like how we are trending for next season. I know it probably won’t happen, but I’d still like to see us develop a serviceable mid-range game. I’ve seen several team successfully use this during the tournament and think it would really help against teams that pack it in.
I've talked about the mid-range J for a long time and mostly I get the "not part of the game anymore" response. I think it's an important shot to have in your arsenal, especially with how teams defend. That doesn't mean take 20 a game but if you hit say 3-5 a game it might be the difference between winning and losing. And yes, I've seem good teams take and make that shot to their advantage over the years. Remember, that shot is almost always uncontested as well.
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I would say the Ellis and Wrightsil injuries are about as low as possible on the issues of this season.
I expected Wrightsil to contribute but agreed, pretty minor issue.
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I've talked about the mid-range J for a long time and mostly I get the "not part of the game anymore" response. I think it's an important shot to have in your arsenal, especially with how teams defend. That doesn't mean take 20 a game but if you hit say 3-5 a game it might be the difference between winning and losing. And yes, I've seem good teams take and make that shot to their advantage over the years. Remember, that shot is almost always uncontested as well.
Exactly - I think Tyler, Stevie and OMax would be really hard to guard if they added that shot.
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Like most things, I can argue either side. Foe example, what if EE made the same progress the rest of the returnees? What would the season have been like with an another athletic 6'5 player with some PG skills? Or an experienced 6'6 glue guy in the Mitchell mold, but with rebounding experience?
The counter is that if they had been healthy and played, it probably would have meant less PT for the rest of the bench players.
And, 29-7.
A rotation that deep is not an impactful rotation. Play 8 trust 7
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Like most things, I can argue either side. Foe example, what if EE made the same progress the rest of the returnees? What would the season have been like with an another athletic 6'5 player with some PG skills? Or an experienced 6'6 glue guy in the Mitchell mold, but with rebounding experience?
The counter is that if they had been healthy and played, it probably would have meant less PT for the rest of the bench players.
And, 29-7.
In the brief time Ellis played during the UNC game last year, he looked like he’d never dribbled a basketball before. He might stay because he likes Shaka, but I can’t see him being an impact player at Marquette.
Sean Jones was only out for a couple games. Wrightsil doesn’t belong at this level.
None of our key players got injured and we had the same starting lineup all year. That’s a rare thing, and I believe it’s the point Herman was trying to make. If you think any injury besides whatever was going on with Kolek the last two games had any impact on the season, you’re being purposefully obtuse. We couldn’t have possibly asked for better health this year.
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I’m still struggling to wrap my head around how many of you would prefer a conference title to an elite 8.
For me, It’s about as simple as preferring 3 months and 20 games of entertaining and winning basketball (half of which I get to see in person) culminating in a championship over a week of winning 3 games.
From a player’s perspective I would think that a conference championship in a strong conference would be more satisfying.
Maybe after MU wins a few more conference titles the preference will change.
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Hence the discussion of improvement. The season was a lot of fun. My personal preference is to have lots of bodies. As a cushion against injuries and to help with full court pressure for longer.
If you were to list what you thought MU's weaknesses were, would a healthy Ellis or Wrightsil have made a difference? IMO, yes. But I don't feel like this is a hill I need to defend. Rock on.
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Exactly - I think Tyler, Stevie and OMax would be really hard to guard if they added that shot.
The one who would see a whole world open up for him if he had a 10-15 footer would be Oso.
There was one game, I can't remember which but it was a conference game, that Oso was left SO wide open from about 14 feet that he took it -- and made it.
I wonder if either on the bench later in the game or in practice the next day Shaka, Nevada or any other coach said anything to Oso about it. If so, was it, "Good job, do it again!" or "OK, that went in, but that's not really what we want from you." Would love to ask Shaka about that.
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Short version - would you rather have Marquette season this year or UConn’s if they lose today.
Marquette and (for me) it's not even a close discussion.
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I’m still struggling to wrap my head around how many of you would prefer a conference title to an elite 8.
It’s not a question of preference of one over the other. It’s recognizing that two earned conference titles are a great accomplishment.
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Short version - would you rather have Marquette season this year or UConn’s if they lose today.
Marquette’s no question.
UConn’s season included a losing stretch that took them from favorites to out of the running for the regular season title relatively early and a disappointing loss before a big partisan crowd in the BET semifinal. Going to the Final Four might help overcome those things, but a loss in the E8 game would complete a triple crown of disappointments.
I can’t agree with Doctor V about drawing the line between the Elite 8 and the Sweet 16. The only real difference between the two is one more win but postponing the disappointment by 2 days.
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Full Fiserv Forum games are tremendously fun.
The future looks good for MU hoops.
The overarching thing for me is that after Wojo-inspired apathy, I am fully re-engaged with Marquette Basketball.
IMO, this is the reason why this season may have been better than a mediocre regular season with a flash-in-the-pan deep tourney run. Rebuilding/reenergizing the fan base for the long run is going to come from sustained success. Tourney runs can help to bring people to jump on the bandwagon (and also necessary to keep fan attention in the long run), but I think early in Shaka’s tenure, this type of season will help to reinstall faith in the program generally. Trust the process, etc.
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Give me the outright BE title and tourney title and a second round exit over 5th in the conference and Elite 8 exit.
But give me Final Four over anything, even if it’s the double conference title and an Elite 8 loss.
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Sean Jones
Emarion Ellis
Zach Wrightsil
All injuries. E and W affected depth, at a minimum, Herman.
They all look alike.
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Marquette and (for me) it's not even a close discussion.
Y’all are insane with this takes. Feel like a coping mechanism more than anything.
If Marquette goes to the Elite 8 next year, and finished say, third in conference this season will be a blip on the radar.
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Y’all are insane with this takes. Feel like a coping mechanism more than anything.
If Marquette goes to the Elite 8 next year, and finished say, third in conference this season will be a blip on the radar.
This season will be remembered as special because of where we were projected and how we finished the regular season. It will be a building block for Shaka for years to come.
However, ultimately programs are judged by what they do in the tournament. Moving forward tournament success is imperative.
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Y’all are insane with this takes. Feel like a coping mechanism more than anything.
If Marquette goes to the Elite 8 next year, and finished say, third in conference this season will be a blip on the radar.
Why the "either/or obsession?
I think it's amusing that you referred to a "coping mechanism." ;D
Some of us enjoyed most of the games in our 36 game season, which was insanely better than expected. You seemed to be devoted to your 2 game season.
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I definitely would rather have UCONN's season whether they win or lose today. Fair or not you are measured by tournament results. This was an incredible opportunity that didn't go our way. Now, I have no doubt we will be put in an excellent position to succeed in the tournament for many years to come. That said getting a 2 seed hasn't happened very often for MU. The path was right there to make a deep run and it hurts. It primarily stings because we played so poorly whether TyKo was injured or not. I will say that we can take some solace in the likelihood that dominant NCAA teams could be rare in the immediate future.
Muggsy-
I really appreciate you as a poster and I mean this in the nicest way possible…
If Marquette would have had UConn’s season up to this point you would have short circuited by late February/early March.
Don’t forget how brutal UConn was in conference compared to Marquette…
Especially after the start they had and being #1 team in the land.
That season would’ve given you 1.5-2 months of several large letdowns and frustrations, and one additional week of excitement in March.
So, you’d definitely be happier for the majority of the basketball season with Marquettes season.
Seems like most agree with me on it and I think if you reconsider your emotions and the entire body of work you’ll agree that you’d prefer Marquettes season.
Unless UConn wins today, then the answer is UConn.
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Y’all are insane with this takes. Feel like a coping mechanism more than anything.
If Marquette goes to the Elite 8 next year, and finished say, third in conference this season will be a blip on the radar.
I grumbled around the house for about a minute and then was over it. How I roll.
The season was a lot of fun. It ended earlier than I wanted. Every fanbase but one will say that.
Acknowledge, next.
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Marquette’s no question.
UConn’s season included a losing stretch that took them from favorites to out of the running for the regular season title relatively early and a disappointing loss before a big partisan crowd in the BET semifinal. Going to the Final Four might help overcome those things, but a loss in the E8 game would complete a triple crown of disappointments.
I can’t agree with Doctor V about drawing the line between the Elite 8 and the Sweet 16. The only real difference between the two is one more win but postponing the disappointment by 2 days.
Fair point.
My main takeaway is that before this year I always assumed I’d prefer a S16 run over a conference title.
This season solidified that I wouldn’t.
The distinction between the S16 and E8 for me is that these E8 games are so massive that you’re a step away from the Final 4, one breath away, one magical game away.
That enough makes the March run worth it, even if you fall short.
Losing in the sweet 16 is just whatever.
I’d bet if you asked Sean Miller after last night he would agree with me, and would trade his season for Shakas at the drop of a hat.
All that said, some of it has to do with the moment in time in history.
Meaning, Marquette was starved.
Marquette needed a huge season very badly, and Marquette got that in the regular and conference tournament seasons.
If Shaka were to run it back and win B2B next year or the year after, and make it more of a consistent top 3/4 thing year in and year out, which will be difficult but certainly plausible, then perhaps things shift a bit and the 3 month gauntlet loses some importance to the 3 week sprint
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My main takeaway is that before this year I always assumed I’d prefer a S16 run over a conference title.
This season solidified that I wouldn’t.
I'm kinda here with ya, V. As recently as the week of the Big East tournament, I was saying, "It would be swell to win the BET, but if not no big deal; we've got bigger fish to fry, like getting to the second weekend."
But once the BET took place, especially the intense game against UConn, and then to pull that win out over what basically was a home team that most folks (including lots of Scoopers) were saying would beat us, and then to crush X in the final, all under the MSG lights ... and all of it to come after we won the outright regular-season title by 2 games clear of the field ... well, I couldn't help but really get into it and to feel a lot of pride as a Marquette fan.
Obviously, I still wanted to win more NCAA tournament games. And obviously, if we had lost to UConn but then went on to reach the S16, E8 or FF, most here would have been pretty damn happy with the season.
And most obvious of all ... none of us gets to choose, anyway!
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Y’all are insane with this takes. Feel like a coping mechanism more than anything.
If Marquette goes to the Elite 8 next year, and finished say, third in conference this season will be a blip on the radar.
But expectations and goals change over time.
With this team, being as young as it is, winning both Big East Titles is an incredible feat. Now you can extend the goalposts and hope to advance farther next year.
Winning both Big East Titles and losing second round or losing in the Elite 8? I don't think your answer has to be the same every season. It can change is basically what I'm trying to say.
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In terms of banner worthy, here is where MUBB ranks these
(https://images.sidearmdev.com/resize?url=https://dxbhsrqyrr690.cloudfront.net/sidearm.nextgen.sites/gomarquette.com/images/2020/4/17/20180824_MU_506_MB.jpg&height=300&type=webp)
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The one who would see a whole world open up for him if he had a 10-15 footer would be Oso.
There was one game, I can't remember which but it was a conference game, that Oso was left SO wide open from about 14 feet that he took it -- and made it.
I wonder if either on the bench later in the game or in practice the next day Shaka, Nevada or any other coach said anything to Oso about it. If so, was it, "Good job, do it again!" or "OK, that went in, but that's not really what we want from you." Would love to ask Shaka about that.
It certainly appears to be the latter.
High % 2s and open 3s.
Nevada doesn’t want 15’ jumpers, even if they are open…..% goes down.
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It certainly appears to be the latter.
High % 2s and open 3s.
Nevada doesn’t want 15’ jumpers, even if they are open…..% goes down.
An open 15’ should be a better percentage shot than a contested 2 at the rim.
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Y’all are insane with this takes. Feel like a coping mechanism more than anything.
If Marquette goes to the Elite 8 next year, and finished say, third in conference this season will be a blip on the radar.
It depends. I’d lean towards UConn in your question. But if it was 2011 Marquette’s season with one additional win over UNC in the S16? This year every single time.
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An open 15’ should be a better percentage shot than a contested 2 at the rim.
I don’t know if that’s true with potential for and 1s and fouls to opposition?
Nevada doesn’t seem to think so.
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Y’all are insane with this takes. Feel like a coping mechanism more than anything.
If Marquette goes to the Elite 8 next year, and finished say, third in conference this season will be a blip on the radar.
Would you take Xavier’s season over ours?
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Y’all are insane with this takes. Feel like a coping mechanism more than anything.
If Marquette goes to the Elite 8 next year, and finished say, third in conference this season will be a blip on the radar.
Always nice to see people who are respectful of the opinions of others who don’t see things exactly the way they do.
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An open 15’ should be a better percentage shot than a contested 2 at the rim.
That’s just not true at all. The best rim individual defenders at the rim in the NBA allow opposing players to shoot 50% when they’re contesting shots at the rim. The best mid range shooter in the NBA shot 55% in the mid range.
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That’s just not true at all. The best rim individual defenders at the rim in the NBA allow opposing players to shoot 50% when they’re contesting shots at the rim. The best mid range shooter in the NBA shot 55% in the mid range.
How many point blank shots did Stevie miss this year? He would definitely be well served to have a mid range game. Even Tyler, despite all the crazy shots he made this year.
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I don’t think we need to rewrite our system. We had an incredible season. We didn’t show up in a do or die game, which stunk. But sign me up for this regular season every year and I’ll take my chances in March.
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I don’t think we need to rewrite our system. We had an incredible season. We didn’t show up in a do or die game, which stunk. But sign me up for this regular season every year and I’ll take my chances in March.
Agreed. Keep bringing good teams to the tournament and we will breakthrough. That’s why I don’t think we should discount the dual Big East Championship. This was a very good team that I think struggled with being the hunted in the tournament. They ran into an experienced team that has a coach that’s great in March.
I think Shaka is going to have us in the 2/3 conversation a lot, and we will make some noise.
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One thing I notice a lot more than what I see with Marquette is a lot more downhill play from all guards on the court for teams that are advancing. Secondary guards seem much more aggressive going to the hoop than ours.
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One thing I notice a lot more than what I see with Marquette is a lot more downhill play from all guards on the court for teams that are advancing. Secondary guards seem much more aggressive going to the hoop than ours.
Finishing through contact should be a skill development focus for most of the team this summer.
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wades
Exactly right on the guard play. That is an area that needs a big step forward next season.
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Would you take wisconsins final four nit over ours?
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How many point blank shots did Stevie miss this year? He would definitely be well served to have a mid range game. Even Tyler, despite all the crazy shots he made this year.
Agree with needing a mid-range game. I'm not saying we need to be taking a lot of these shots, because 90% of the time our paint scoring/3pt shooting focused offense will get the job done, BUT when teams are taking one of these away we need to have guys who have a mid range game in their back pocket (ala Daryl Morsell).
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MU has two incoming guards that look like a great fit in size and style. Chase Ross is going to be a closer and he is the type of player needed in March.
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Would you take wisconsins final four nit over ours?
Probably. A win over Marquette proves that 12th place in the Big 10 is tougher than winning the Big East.
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One thing I notice a lot more than what I see with Marquette is a lot more downhill play from all guards on the court for teams that are advancing. Secondary guards seem much more aggressive going to the hoop than ours.
Almost all of Koleks points come downhill to the basket. Stevie's points almost all come at the rim. Kam one of the best finishers at the rim in the country.
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Almost all of Koleks points come downhill to the basket. Stevie's points almost all come at the rim. Kam one of the best finishers at the rim in the country.
Kolek turned into a downhill player the last two weeks of the season. Stevie is not a threat to score off the bounce in the half court and Kam is a finesse player around the rim.
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You are not allowed to say positive things about MU players when posters are ranting about everything wrong. It is in the by-laws.
Shame and fie, GE03
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Kolek turned into a downhill player the last two weeks of the season. Stevie is not a threat to score off the bounce in the half court and Kam is a finesse player around the rim.
Yet
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Kolek turned into a downhill player the last two weeks of the season. Stevie is not a threat to score off the bounce in the half court and Kam is a finesse player around the rim.
Kam finished through contact at the rim numerous times this season as did Kolek and OMax(kinda a guard for this team).
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Yet
I forgot to add the asterisk lol
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Good programs give themselves opportunities on a regular basis. The current coach is going to do that
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Kolek turned into a downhill player the last two weeks of the season. Stevie is not a threat to score off the bounce in the half court and Kam is a finesse player around the rim.
Didn’t Marquette have one of the best 2-point percentages in the country?
So what if Kam was a finesse player around the rim if he finished well?
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We were 317th in free throw rate this season. We did not get down hill going to the rim enough.
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Believe it or not but the team can become more consistent and better if we finish through contact more frequently. Guards yes but Oso and OMax could make a leap if they improve this. Sensitive group tonight.
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Yes, MU's offensive efficiency was predicated on
2 pt efficiency
Little to no mid range game
Average 3 pt shooting
Not turning the ball over.
So, now, the zeitgeist is that MU should do everything different.
I love scoop.
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One thing I notice a lot more than what I see with Marquette is a lot more downhill play from all guards on the court for teams that are advancing. Secondary guards seem much more aggressive going to the hoop than ours.
This is a good take
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How many point blank shots did Stevie miss this year? He would definitely be well served to have a mid range game. Even Tyler, despite all the crazy shots he made this year.
Or he works harder and finishes stronger to increase that % instead of trying something new because of it.
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Didn’t Marquette have one of the best 2-point percentages in the country?
So what if Kam was a finesse player around the rim if he finished well?
We got into the lane and got easy looks because we space well, have a couple very good perimeter shooters and have one of the best passers in the country.
Other than Kolek, no one on the roster is great at breaking his guy off the dribble and finishing strong at the rim. I don’t think it’s necessarily a long term detriment, but it is nice to have a guy or two on the floor who can do that.
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Good programs give themselves opportunities on a regular basis. The current coach is going to do that
100% correct.
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Yes, MU's offensive efficiency was predicated on
2 pt efficiency
Little to no mid range game
Average 3 pt shooting
Not turning the ball over.
So, now, the zeitgeist is that MU should do everything different.
I love scoop.
No one said this
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Sure they have.
We need transfers who can shoot the 3.
(Player X) needs to shoot more from the midrange.
Jealous of the different way guards from other teams get downhill.
It is all over this board. Which is fine. I appreciate the laughs.
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Sure they have.
We need transfers who can shoot the 3.
(Player X) needs to shoot more from the midrange.
Jealous of the different way guards from other teams get downhill.
It is all over this board. Which is fine. I appreciate the laughs.
What I’d like to see is, get rid of the of the shot clock and 3-pointer and they’ll be fine
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Eliminate the dunk, too.
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Sure they have.
We need transfers who can shoot the 3.
(Player X) needs to shoot more from the midrange.
Jealous of the different way guards from other teams get downhill.
It is all over this board. Which is fine. I appreciate the laughs.
We can still be true to what we do best while getting better in areas where we were weak. It’s all about adding tools to the toolbox. Because you’ll need the whole thing in the NCAA tournament.
The teams that have gone the furthest can win in a variety of ways.
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Eliminate the dunk, too.
Thank you. The dunk has ruined the game. Jim Chones never dunked
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Sure they have.
We need transfers who can shoot the 3.
(Player X) needs to shoot more from the midrange.
Jealous of the different way guards from other teams get downhill.
It is all over this board. Which is fine. I appreciate the laughs.
Ive heard more talk on here that we need players to develop a midrange game…..what?
MU and their fantastic offense doesn’t value the mid range jumper. At all.
Now scoopers have that at the top of their wish list? I don’t think they watched the same team as I did.
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MU won a variety of ways all year. Won outscoring people. Won grinds. Won with defense.
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There’s no mid range game anymore. No sense to take a lower percentage two when you can shoot a three or work it inside.
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Thank you. The dunk has ruined the game. Jim Chones never dunked
Bring back 4 passes before looking for a shot and the picket fence.
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MU won a variety of ways all year. Won outscoring people. Won grinds. Won with defense.
How many more games would they have won with mid-range jumpers and bangers?
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Bring back 4 passes before looking for a shot and the picket fence.
Not once in the Al McGuire era did Marquette shoot a basketball before passing the ball 4 times. Simpler times
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There’s no mid range game anymore. No sense to take a lower percentage two when you can shoot a three or work it inside.
Agreed……so no reason to wish that players develop an elbow jumper.
As ive said, it is more likely that Oso develops a trailer 3 from the top of the key than any other “jumper”.
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Most importantly, bring back the 4 corners. Nothing more exciting.
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How about making a shot from beyond half court worth 4 points and making a shot from inside the opponent’s 3-point line worth 5 points?
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Ooooooooooohhhhhh.
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Agreed……so no reason to wish that players develop an elbow jumper.
As ive said, it is more likely that Oso develops a trailer 3 from the top of the key than any other “jumper”.
I agree with avoiding midrange shots but I think Oso is the one guy where developing a consistent 10-15 footer could open things up more for him.
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How many more games would they have won with mid-range jumpers and bangers?
11, maybe 12
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Most importantly, bring back the 4 corners. Nothing more exciting.
Al McGuire won a national title by defeating the 4 corners. Case closed
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A little bit tough watching Creighton last night and UCONN tonight playing for trips to the FF. I'm rooting for the BE all the way----no sour grapes here. But knowing that MU was 2-0 against Creighton and 2-1 against UCONN makes the whole thing kind of a downer.
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Sure they have.
We need transfers who can shoot the 3.
(Player X) needs to shoot more from the midrange.
Jealous of the different way guards from other teams get downhill.
It is all over this board. Which is fine. I appreciate the laughs.
Getting downhill is not changing the system at all. Layups and 3s. Getting downhill is layups.
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Which MU did.
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Which MU did.
Not against MSU.
The spartan's guards did score at the rim and in the midrange against us though.
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Which MU did.
If we did we would’ve been higher than 317th in the country in free throw rate. But facts.
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The season overall was great.
The nccas sucked. Very disappointing. Bad time for such a poor performance. Don’t understand how anyone can have a different take. Sucks even more when 3 teams we beat twice went further. I’ll trade UConn’s season for ours any day. U think Shaka would trade. A guy with all this criticism for post season performance wouldn’t take an elete 8 on the resume over a big East title lol??
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I agree MU could finish better through contact and even seek it out around the rim. MU's offense was innovative and was among the best in the country in 2 pt percentage.
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The season overall was great.
The nccas sucked. Very disappointing. Bad time for such a poor performance. Don’t understand how anyone can have a different take. Sucks even more when 3 teams we beat twice went further. I’ll trade UConn’s season for ours any day. U think Shaka would trade. A guy with all this criticism for post season performance wouldn’t take an elete 8 on the resume over a big East title lol??
Shaka’s got a Final Four under his belt.
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I agree with avoiding midrange shots but I think Oso is the one guy where developing a consistent 10-15 footer could open things up more for him.
Maybe….but not in this offense so Im unsure where or when that would happen.
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Yeah forever ago. Lost 8 of 9 tournament games with one win against a garbage Vermont. I love the guy just saying he’d take the elite 8 loss over what we had now
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Maybe….but not in this offense so Im unsure where or when that would happen.
There were plenty of times he was open from 10-15 feet and teams sagged and cut off his passing and driving lanes. I’m not saying it will be a shot we sent to take but if he shows he can make it that’s going to open up the drive and the pass even more. He also needs to expand his range for his professional future.
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Wow. This is a serious ass kicking.
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There were plenty of times he was open from 10-15 feet and teams sagged and cut off his passing and driving lanes. I’m not saying it will be a shot we sent to take but if he shows he can make it that’s going to open up the drive and the pass even more. He also needs to expand his range for his professional future.
The threat of a 3 from Oso would help his pro career as opposed to a wide open 15’ jumper.
However, im concerned with his pro career ONLY as it impacts MU.
I hope he has such an unbelievable season next year that every scout wants him. Everyone wins.
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Is UConn playing better than they ever did in Big East play? Someone say yes.
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Is UConn playing better than they ever did in Big East play? Someone say yes.
They're really tough if they're hitting threes. Still no one shouod gloss over the fact we took 2/3.
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Is this the largest blowout in elite 8 history?
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Is UConn playing better than they ever did in Big East play? Someone say yes.
Zags without Timme having a good game look like Wisconsin.
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Ive heard more talk on here that we need players to develop a midrange game…..what?
MU and their fantastic offense doesn’t value the mid range jumper. At all.
Now scoopers have that at the top of their wish list? I don’t think they watched the same team as I did.
Sweater vests have been banging this drum all year.
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UCONN is playing better than any team in the tournament
This is an absolute BEAT DOWN.
They are going to win it all
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Can we hang a banner for beating the national champs twice?
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Can we hang a banner for beating the national champs twice?
Muggsy will do the unveiling.
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Other than Kolek, no one on the roster is great at breaking his guy off the dribble and finishing strong at the rim. I don’t think it’s necessarily a long term detriment, but it is nice to have a guy or two on the floor who can do that.
Kam would like a word.
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Is this the largest blowout in elite 8 history?
It wasn’t called the Elite 8 back then, but in 1965 Princeton (as an underdog) defeated Providence 109-69 with Bill Bradley leading the way to advance to the Final Four.
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Muggsy will do the unveiling.
Or he won't.
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Thanks!
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Marquette season or Gonzaga season - which one you picking?
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Marquette season or Gonzaga season - which one you picking?
MU by a wide margin.
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I mean, like MU, Gonzaga won its conference regular-season and tournament titles. Unlike MU, Gonzaga reached the Elite 8.
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When asked how UCONN has managed to win all its NCAA games by a wide margin, Dan Hurley responded, “we play in the best conference in the country, and we lost some tough games there, then we got to the NCAA tournament and it was like our non conference.”
If a comment can make me feel simultaneously proud and frustrated, that just did it.
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When asked how UCONN has managed to win all its NCAA games by a wide margin, Dan Hurley responded, “we play in the best conference in the country, and we lost some tough games there, then we got to the NCAA tournament and it was like our non conference.”
If a comment can make me feel simultaneously proud and frustrated, that just did it.
Made me like him a tad
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I mean, like MU, Gonzaga won its conference regular-season and tournament titles. Unlike MU, Gonzaga reached the Elite 8.
Split a much worse conference title. They would’ve been about the 5th best team in the Big East.
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Who is "us"?
I can't speak for others, but for me it's not "oh well." It's:
Though I was really disappointed with how the season ended, I can't do a damn thing about the loss to Michigan State now. And I truly enjoyed this season, and I'm really optimistic about next season. So for me, personally, to be "haunted" by the season's end would be silly and unproductive. We Are Marquette!
What are your pronouns?
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In hindsight this has to be the most disappointing MU tourney run of my lifetime. There are years they were more embarrassing but never so much wasted potential. They actually could have won it all this year. The Final Four should have been the floor.
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In hindsight this has to be the most disappointing MU tourney run of my lifetime. There are years they were more embarrassing but never so much wasted potential. They actually could have won it all this year. The Final Four should have been the floor.
It's a crapshoot tournament. Things happen when your 1 and done. The 4 best teams are not in the final four.
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The Final Four should have been the floor.
The floor? Get serious.
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It’s a single elimination tournament with a relatively young team. It’s not like we were a dominant one seed that got upset.
Everyone is pointing to all the high seeds losing. Every 1 and 2 seed is probably kicking themselves saying the same thing. It’s pretty darn hard to make a Final Four. It takes luck, no letdowns, and playing well.
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It's a crapshoot tournament.
It’s not and let’s stop pushing this copium narrative
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It’s not and let’s stop pushing this copium narrative
It is and it’s not copium
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Very simple - it’s a crapshoot when you lose and the best decider of overall talent when you win.
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It is and it’s not copium
It’s absolutely not. I know it feels better to tell yourself that but be serious please.
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it’s a crapshoot when you lose
Only if you’re not mentally strong enough to handle the fact that you came up short
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Only if you’re not mentally strong enough to handle the fact that you came up short
How much mental strength does it take to understand sarcasm?
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How much mental strength does it take to understand sarcasm?
I understood your post; I was referencing others in this thread that insist it’s a crapshoot when we lose. You have made a good point.
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It’s a single elimination tournament with a relatively young team. It’s not like we were a dominant one seed that got upset.
Everyone is pointing to all the high seeds losing. Every 1 and 2 seed is probably kicking themselves saying the same thing. It’s pretty darn hard to make a Final Four. It takes luck, no letdowns, and playing well.
Get out of here with your cool, calm logic! ;D
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It’s absolutely not. I know it feels better to tell yourself that but be serious please.
It is. Facts always make me feel better.
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Get out of here with your cool, calm logic! ;D
I’m going to look in the dictionary and see if the definition of locgic mentions excuse making for blowing a golden opportunity.
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Only if you’re not mentally strong enough to handle the fact that you came up short
This is so dumb.
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It is. Facts always make me feel better.
The fact is that 1 seeds (teams that perform better throughout the year) go to the Final Four and win the National Championship at a much higher rate than any other seed. The same holds true for all top seeds.
83% of all Final Four participants, ever, have been a top 4 seed in their region.
62% of all Final Four participants have been a top 2 seed in their region.
90% of all National Champions have been a top 3 seed in their region.
65% of all National Champions have been a 1 seed.
Do you actually know the facts? Or are you still coping?
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This is so dumb.
Why? Tournament is a crapshoot crowd is just coping, it’s clear.
Marquette had an incredible year but played badly when it mattered. We didn’t lose because of luck or something random. We didn’t lose because the tourney is a crapshoot.
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The fact is that 1 seeds (teams that perform better throughout the year) go to the Final Four and win the National Championship at a much higher rate than any other seed. The same holds true for all top seeds.
83% of all Final Four participants, ever, have been a top 4 seed in their region.
62% of all Final Four participants have been a top 2 seed in their region.
90% of all National Champions have been a top 3 seed in their region.
65% of all National Champions have been a 1 seed.
Do you actually know the facts? Or are you still coping?
Your stats show why it is indeed a crap shoot.
Yes, the top seeds have the highest probability of winning. Because they are generally speaking the best teams. Do you really think FDU is better then Purdue? Or that Purdue had a baaaaad game and FDU played their best of the year? Do you believe that in a 10 game series, FDU would come out on top? Or even come close?
This is why in a single elimination tournament it is a crapshoot. Say Marquette beats Michigan state with a 8/10 success rate. They are clearly a superior team. However Michigan state rolled that 20% chance and won the game, and now Marquette is out.
You do not genuinely believe that this final four are the best four in the country do you?
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Your stats show why it is indeed a crap shoot.
Yes, the top seeds have the highest probability of winning. Because they are generally speaking the best teams. Do you really think FDU is better then Purdue? Or that Purdue had a baaaaad game and FDU played their best of the year? Do you believe that in a 10 game series, FDU would come out on top? Or even come close?
This is why in a single elimination tournament it is a crapshoot. Say Marquette beats Michigan state with a 8/10 success rate. They are clearly a superior team. However Michigan state rolled that 20% chance and won the game, and now Marquette is out.
You do not genuinely believe that this final four are the best four in the country do you?
Are you nuts?
You’re essentially saying any tournament where the overall number 1 team doesn’t win is now a crapshoot. :o
Is the NFL playoffs a crapshoot because Eli Manning can beat Tom Brady? Is the NBA playoffs a crapshoot because the Warriors can lose with the best record of all time? Why even watch sports if it’s all just a lucky crapshoot?
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Do you really think FDU is better then Purdue? Or that Purdue had a baaaaad game and FDU played their best of the year?
Also Purdue was a horribly flawed team from a horribly flawed conference with a horribly flawed best player and a horribly flawed head coach.
No one with half a brain was picking them to come out of that region. And there was a ton of $ on FDU ATS and to win outright (compared to other 16-1 matchups).
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I’m going to look in the dictionary and see if the definition of locgic mentions excuse making for blowing a golden opportunity.
Farley: This team sucks, they are going to fade in February, you just watch!
Also Farley: This team is so awesome, Final Four is the floor!
Trolls gonna troll I guess
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Why? Tournament is a crapshoot crowd is just coping, it’s clear.
Marquette had an incredible year but played badly when it mattered. We didn’t lose because of luck or something random. We didn’t lose because the tourney is a crapshoot.
If you don’t think there’s absolutely randomness in a lose and go home scenario I’m. It sure what to say. Sure, over time the higher seeded teams are going to make the most appearances in the final 4 but this year is a perfect example of it being a crapshoot and that has nothing to do with trying to “cope”.
Marquette lost because they didn’t play well. They are a better team than MSU.
How many times does FDU beat Purdue if they play 50 times?
All it takes is one bad night to lose to a team you would beat more often than not.
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If you don’t think there’s absolutely randomness in a lose and go home scenario I’m. It sure what to say. Sure, over time the higher seeded teams are going to make the most appearances in the final 4 but this year is a perfect example of it being a crapshoot and that has nothing to do with trying to “cope”.
Marquette lost because they didn’t play well. They are a better team than MSU.
How many times does FDU beat Purdue if they play 50 times?
All it takes is one bad night to lose to a team you would beat more often than not.
Every game of sports ever played throughout all of human history has some element of randomness to it. That does not make the entire tournament a crapshoot and it’s ignorance to suggest otherwise.
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Are you nuts?
Is the NFL playoffs a crapshoot because Eli Manning can beat Tom Brady? Is the NBA playoffs a crapshoot because the Warriors can lose with the best record of all time? Why even watch sports if it’s all just a lucky crapshoot?
NFL playoffs? Yes
Nba Playoffs? No
Look a bit deeper guy.
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Every game of sports ever played throughout all of human history has some element of randomness to it. That does not make the entire tournament a crapshoot and it’s ignorance to suggest otherwise.
Do you not understand statistics/probabilities? Or just refuse to acknowledge them?
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Do you not understand statistics/probabilities? Or just refuse to acknowledge them?
Any tournament where the statistical favorite does not win outright is a “crapshoot”?
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NFL playoffs? Yes
Nba Playoffs? No
Look a bit deeper guy.
You are so unaware lol.
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Any tournament where the statistical favorite does not win outright is a “crapshoot”?
Also isn’t there some stat out there where some super specific set of KenPom stats has predicted the National Champion of the last 20 tournaments? And you can basically narrow the field of potential champs to like 7 teams before the tourney even starts?
Creighton and UConn were on the good side of that stat while Marquette and Purdue were not.
Crapshoot, I guess.
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Farley: This team sucks, they are going to fade in February, you just watch!
Also Farley: This team is so awesome, Final Four is the floor!
Trolls gonna troll I guess
Scoop: how dare you question this team and troll with your low expectations. This team is a legit winner.
Also Scoop: how dare you question this team with your high expectations. They are young and winning is a crapshoot. This team shouldn’t be expected to win yet.
Scoopers gonna scoop.
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Every game of sports ever played throughout all of human history has some element of randomness to it. That does not make the entire tournament a crapshoot and it’s ignorance to suggest otherwise.
When it’s single game elimination that makes a massive difference. So to compare the NBA or NHL playoffs to the tourney is, well, dumb.
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When it’s single game elimination that makes a massive difference. So to compare the NBA or NHL playoffs to the tourney is, well, dumb.
Nobody here even mentioned the NHL playoffs.
The best regular season team loses regularly in the NBA playoffs.
Do you understand that or are you, well, dumb?
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Any tournament where the statistical favorite does not win outright is a “crapshoot”?
No one calls MLB, NHL or NBA tournaments crapshoots.
People call the NCAA tournament a crapshoot because the probability that the "best" team will win is much lower when it's single elimination vs best of 3/5/7
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Nobody here even mentioned the NHL playoffs.
The best regular season team loses regularly in the NBA playoffs.
Do you understand that or are you, well, dumb?
My man, you are so dense.
in a single game elimination there are a ton of factors of randomness that do not exist in a 7 game series.
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No one calls MLB, NHL or NBA tournaments crapshoots.
People call the NCAA tournament a crapshoot because the probability that the "best" team will win is much lower when it's single elimination vs best of 3/5/7
People call the NCAA tournament a crapshoot to cope when their team disappoints.
There are simply more teams in the NCAA tournament than the others you mentioned. A top 3 seeded team wins the tournament 90+% of the time.
If you lose - you weren’t the best team.
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My man, you are so dense.
in a single game elimination there are a ton of factors of randomness that do not exist in a 7 game series.
I think this is what you’re not comprehending.
Sports are, by definition, somewhat random. The best teams overcome the randomness and seize opportunity. That doesn’t make the tournament a crapshoot.
A crapshoot is spinning a ball in a roulette wheel. The tournament is not that.
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People call the NCAA tournament a crapshoot to cope when their team disappoints.
There are simply more teams in the NCAA tournament than the others you mentioned. A top 3 seeded team wins the tournament 90+% of the time.
If you lose - you weren’t the best team.
1. So, whichever team wins the NCAA tournament is the best team that season?
2. If every matchup in the bracket played a best of 5 or 7, would the outcome be the same? Would the same team still win the whole tournament?
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1. So, whichever team wins the NCAA tournament is the best team that season?
2. If every matchup in the bracket played a best of 5 or 7, would the outcome be the same? Would the same team still win the whole tournament?
1. Definitionally, yes. Are you trying to imply that the very best team, statistically, needs to win the tournament 100% of the time in order for it to NOT be a crapshoot? That’s what this line of questioning seems to imply.
2. I’d bet the same team would win the whole thing at the end, yes. Would FDU beat Purdue in a 7 game series? No. But Purdue wouldn’t win this tournament, no matter the format. They weren’t a good 1 seed.
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Also isn’t there some stat out there where some super specific set of KenPom stats has predicted the National Champion of the last 20 tournaments? And you can basically narrow the field of potential champs to like 7 teams before the tourney even starts?
Creighton and UConn were on the good side of that stat while Marquette and Purdue were not.
Crapshoot, I guess.
Pretty sure it's "top 25 in offensive AND defensive efficiency"
If Creighton and Texas both win today all four Final Four teams will come from that group. (Well, almost. FAU is #29 in defense)
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Pretty sure it's "top 25 in offensive AND defensive efficiency"
If Creighton and Texas both win today all four Final Four teams will come from that group. (Well, almost. FAU is #29 in defense)
Thank you…
Even in the wildest year the tourney has had in more than a decade, the Final Four is not a crapshoot.
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1. Definitionally, yes. Are you trying to imply that the very best team, statistically, needs to win the tournament 100% of the time in order for it to NOT be a crapshoot? That’s what this line of questioning seems to imply.
2. I’d bet the same team would win the whole thing at the end, yes. Would FDU beat Purdue in a 7 game series? No. But Purdue wouldn’t win this tournament, no matter the format. They weren’t a good 1 seed.
1. No. Crapshoot isn't binary. It's a spectrum.
2. Before this tournament, who did you believe was the best team in the country?
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The fact is that 1 seeds (teams that perform better throughout the year) go to the Final Four and win the National Championship at a much higher rate than any other seed. The same holds true for all top seeds.
83% of all Final Four participants, ever, have been a top 4 seed in their region.
62% of all Final Four participants have been a top 2 seed in their region.
90% of all National Champions have been a top 3 seed in their region.
65% of all National Champions have been a 1 seed.
Do you actually know the facts? Or are you still coping?
Coping over what? The tournament is a crapshoot. That’s not coping.
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1. No. Crapshoot isn't binary. It's a spectrum.
2. Before this tournament, who did you believe was the best team in the country?
1. So now it’s just kind of a crapshoot? That was easy. Defend your opinion.
2. It doesn’t matter who I thought was the best team. That’s why they play the games - to find out.
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Coping over what? The tournament is a crapshoot. That’s not coping.
It makes it easier to cope with the disappointment if you tell yourself that it’s all random anyway.
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The team that can win 6 games in a row against strong competition deserves the title of National Champion.
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It makes it easier to cope with the disappointment if you tell yourself that it’s all random anyway.
It is random.
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The team that can win 6 games in a row against strong competition deserves the title of National Champion.
Does the title of national champion also mean "best team in the country"?
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Does the title of national champion also mean "best team in the country"?
Luckiest
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Yes, the team that wins the tournament is the team that performed the best when it mattered against the best competition.
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1. So now it’s just kind of a crapshoot? That was easy. Defend your opinion.
2. It doesn’t matter who I thought was the best team. That’s why they play the games - to find out.
It's significantly more of a crapshoot than the NBA/MLB/NHL. It's only slightly more than the NFL due to the # of teams.
It's all based on probabilities and statistics.
If you can't understand, or unwilling to admit, that a single elimination tournament has more variability/irregularities than a multi-game series tournament, then you're just being obtuse intentionally.
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Yes, the team that wins the tournament is the team that performed the best when it mattered against the best competition.
Does "performed the best when it mattered" mean the best team?
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Does the title of national champion also mean "best team in the country"?
Definitionally, yes.
They achieved the objective of basketball (scoring more points than the other team) more proficiently than anyone else in a field of the best performing regular season teams.
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Does "performed the best when it mattered" mean the best team?
Literally yes.
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It's significantly more of a crapshoot than the NBA/MLB/NHL. It's only slightly more than the NFL due to the # of teams.
It's all based on probabilities and statistics.
If you can't understand, or unwilling to admit, that a single elimination tournament has more variability/irregularities than a multi-game series tournament, then you're just being obtuse intentionally.
No one said there isn’t more variability or irregularity than other playoff formats. You just constructed that straw man.
The tournament is not a crapshoot.
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No one said there isn’t more variability or irregularity than other playoff formats. You just constructed that straw man.
The tournament is not a crapshoot.
That's EXACTLY what people mean when they say the tournament is a crapshoot.
Thanks for agreeing with all of us.
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Scoop: how dare you question this team and troll with your low expectations. This team is a legit winner.
Also Scoop: how dare you question this team with your high expectations. They are young and winning is a crapshoot. This team shouldn’t be expected to win yet.
Scoopers gonna scoop.
I'd say, "Troll on!" but you are just so pathetically bad at it, it makes us all cringe for you.
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Y’all are insane with this takes. Feel like a coping mechanism more than anything.
If Marquette goes to the Elite 8 next year, and finished say, third in conference this season will be a blip on the radar.
Not a coping mechanism and not a chance. The tourney is great but it's a crapshoot. I'm not overwhelmingly impressed by 2014 Dayton, 2016 Notre Dame, or 2021 USC.
What we did this year is an indicator of excellence. True excellence earned over months of play. The tourney is fun, but it's the worst way to determine the best team. Long run I want the NCAA success, but this season was awesome. 2003 is the only season in my fandom I'd put ahead of this, and that's the regular season/Final Four combo. Night after night Fiserv was awesome. I wouldn't trade that for anything less than a Final Four.
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That's EXACTLY what people mean when they say the tournament is a crapshoot.
Thanks for agreeing with all of us.
😂
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That's EXACTLY what people mean when they say the tournament is a crapshoot.
Thanks for agreeing with all of us.
Except crapshoot, definitionally, means fully random as the word relates to shooting dice in a game of craps.
The NCAA tournament is nowhere near the randomness of a crapshoot. Which is what I assume people mean when they say the word “crapshoot”.
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Except crapshoot, definitionally, means fully random as the word relates to shooting dice in a game of craps.
The NCAA tournament is nowhere near the randomness of a crapshoot. Which is what I assume people mean when they say the word “crapshoot”.
Yes it is
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Except crapshoot, definitionally, means fully random as the word relates to shooting dice in a game of craps.
The NCAA tournament is nowhere near the randomness of a crapshoot. Which is what I assume people mean when they say the word “crapshoot”.
"Definitionally" has been overused today.
I'm glad there's never been a single instance in all of history where a word is used outside of whatever definition you or the dictionary have for it.
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Yes it is
Now you’re just being intentionally moronic 😂
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"Definitionally" has been overused today.
I'm glad there's never been a single instance in all of history where a word is used outside of whatever definition you or the dictionary have for it.
Because you use words and then make arguments that don’t align with the definition of the words you are using.
That seems to be the flaw in your argument here.
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Now you’re just being intentionally moronic 😂
Trust me, you’ve met the board quota
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Trust me, you’ve met the board quota
Love when your argument falls apart so you just go to condescending snark. It’s incredible.
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Except crapshoot, definitionally, means fully random as the word relates to shooting dice in a game of craps.
Except craps itself isn't fully random. 7 is the target number because it's the most common throw with the most combinations on the dice.
Crapshoot isn't total randomness, it's an acknowledgment that's there's chance involved. It's something with more variability or irregularity. Just like you said.
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Love when your argument falls apart so you just go to condescending snark. It’s incredible.
My argument hasn’t fallen apart. The tournament is a crapshoot. It’s not coping to call it that, it’s truth. I’m right and you’re wrong. Simple as that.
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Except craps itself isn't fully random. 7 is the target number because it's the most common throw with the most combinations on the dice.
Crapshoot isn't total randomness, it's an acknowledgment that's there's chance involved. It's something with more variability or irregularity. Just like you said.
It is fully random what shows up on the dice when you throw them. There are more combinations of faces that can make a 7 but the faces that come up are fully random.
Which is why you can bet on things like a hard or soft number.
The NCAA tournament is not a crapshoot.
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It is fully random what shows up on the dice when you throw them. There are more combinations of faces that can make a 7 but the faces that come up are fully random.
Which is why you can bet on things like a hard or soft number.
The NCAA tournament is not a crapshoot.
It is a crapshoot.
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My argument hasn’t fallen apart. The tournament is a crapshoot. It’s not coping to call it that, it’s truth. I’m right and you’re wrong. Simple as that.
It’s not. Not only are you wrong, you don’t even understand your own argument. It sucks that Marquette lost but calling it random chance is a cope by you.
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Ben Gold will be an all-American next year and the winner of the NCAA tournament is entirely random. Things I’ve learned this March.
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It is a crapshoot.
Nice thesis - where’s the rest?
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It’s not. Not only are you wrong, you don’t even understand your own argument. It sucks that Marquette lost but calling it random chance is a cope by you.
No it isn’t. The tournament is a crapshoot and I’ve been saying it for years, so I guess it was coping when Marquette wasn’t in the tournament. Listen, you’ve been proven wrong over and over. Your tenacity in being wrong is admirable
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Ben Gold will be an all-American next year and the winner of the NCAA tournament is entirely random. Things I’ve learned this March.
Learning is good
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We don’t need NCAA tourney play and athletic prowess. Just put all the team names in a hat.
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We don’t need NCAA tourney play and athletic prowess. Just put all the team names in a hat.
Why would you do that?
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Random gonna random
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The tourney may not be the best way to determine the national champion but it is practical and incredibly entertaining. While there is an element of luck on whom you meet on your path to the National Championship, you nevertheless have to win 6 games in a row against good / great teams.
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We don’t need NCAA tourney play and athletic prowess. Just put all the team names in a hat.
Honestly, lol. That’s the argument they’re making.
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No it isn’t. The tournament is a crapshoot and I’ve been saying it for years, so I guess it was coping when Marquette wasn’t in the tournament. Listen, you’ve been proven wrong over and over. Your tenacity in being wrong is admirable
It was a cope then too. We weren’t in it or we lost in the first round. Crapshoot!
Bet people weren’t calling it a crapshoot when we were going to Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights…
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It was a cope then too. We weren’t in it or we lost in the first round. Crapshoot!
Bet people weren’t calling it a crapshoot when we were going to Sweet Sixteens and Elite Eights…
Sure I was. Because that’s what it is
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Sure I was. Because that’s what it is
Then you don’t really understand sports at all.
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Nobody here even mentioned the NHL playoffs.
The best regular season team loses regularly in the NBA playoffs.
Do you understand that or are you, well, dumb?
You are literally too stupid to insult.
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Then you don’t really understand sports at all.
No, I understand sports just fine. You don’t understand sports. You’ve made that quite clear.
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You are literally too stupid to insult.
RIP your argument.
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RIP your argument.
No, Vander is correct
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Individual games are not a crapshoot. The tournament in its totality is a crapshoot.
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Individual games are not a crapshoot. The tournament in its totality is a crapshoot.
Yup
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No, I understand sports just fine. You don’t understand sports. You’ve made that quite clear.
Games of sport are randomness manifest, which can be loosely predicted by assigning probabilities based on historical statistics but are also subject to any number of “random” externalities. Also historical statistics have no actual impact on future results and players that have historically been statistically good can then subsequently perform statistically poorly and vice versa.
By arguing that the NCAA tournament is a “crapshoot” because there is inherent randomness and irregularity you are thereby arguing that all sports are a crapshoot and some formats are slightly less crapshoot than others. In which case - why play? Why not just put the probabilities into a computer and let it tell us who’s the “best” and hang a banner for that.
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Individual games are not a crapshoot. The tournament in its totality is a crapshoot.
Historical fact would actually indicate it’s the exact opposite of this.
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Games of sport are randomness manifest, which can be loosely predicted by assigning probabilities based on historical statistics but are also subject to any number of “random” externalities. Also historical statistics have no actual impact on future results and players that have historically been statistically good can then subsequently perform statistically poorly and vice versa.
By arguing that the NCAA tournament is a “crapshoot” because there is inherent randomness and irregularity you are thereby arguing that all sports are a crapshoot and some formats are slightly less crapshoot than others. In which case - why play? Why not just put the probabilities into a computer and let it tell us who’s the “best” and hang a banner for that.
You play because it is a crapshoot. It isn’t complicated unless you have a small brain
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No, Vander is correct
Thanks Judge Judy
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You play because it is a crapshoot. It isn’t complicated unless you have a small brain
So you are acknowledging that your argument is that all sports are inherently crapshoot?
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So you are acknowledging that your argument is that all sports are inherently crapshoot?
I’m stating fact that the NCAA tournament is a crapshoot. Each sport has randomness and luck. It’s not complicated unless you have a very small brain like a squirrel
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The only sport where it makes sense to have multi-game playoffs is baseball because you have to put together a full pitching rotation.
Every other sport should be one and done at tourney time - we - like every other team in the tourney - controlled our own destiny. We played like crap (b/c of Tyler's thumb or otherwise) and we deserved to lose. We should have done better and we didn't.
(https://media.tenor.com/R67rgPZjmqQAAAAC/the-irishman-it-is-what-it-is.gif)
Anything else is copium that only serves to prolong coleitis.
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I’m stating fact that the NCAA tournament is a crapshoot. Each sport has randomness and luck. It’s not complicated unless you have a very small brain like a squirrel
You keep saying it’s not complicated unless you have a small brain while simultaneously not actually defending your point with facts, logic, anything really. That’s kinda why it seems like you lost…
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Historical fact would actually indicate it’s the exact opposite of this.
When was the last time anyone had a perfect bracket?
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RIP your argument.
My argument is correct. Yours is not. Not going to waste my time trying to convince you when plenty of other posters have unsuccessfully tried to do so.
Your persistence at demonstrating your idiocy is something to behold, however.
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When was the last time anyone had a perfect bracket?
This actually proves my point. Nobody is going to pick each and every game perfectly because individual games can have unpredictable outcomes.
But the champ and the Final Four and even the Elite Eight are almost always easily predictable.
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My argument is correct. Yours is not. Not going to waste my time trying to convince you when plenty of other posters have unsuccessfully tried to do so.
Your persistence at demonstrating your idiocy is something to behold, however.
I love these responses because they show how weak you truly are. Can’t stay on topic so we just go to insults.
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But the champ and the Final Four and even the Elite Eight are almost always easily predictable.
Incorrect.
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I love these responses because they show how weak you truly are. Can’t stay on topic so we just go to insults.
There's nothing else left to say on the topic that hasn't already been presented to you by a number of posters here. A reasonable person would have admitted they were wrong by now.
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Incorrect.
Factually correct. KenPom stats were able to narrow this field to like 7-10 teams before the first game was even played.
Two of them are in the Final Four and two others are playing for a spot today.
Just saying “incorrect” is not sufficient to support your emotional opinion.
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You keep saying it’s not complicated unless you have a small brain while simultaneously not actually defending your point with facts, logic, anything really. That’s kinda why it seems like you lost…
A. It’s a fact the tournament is a crapshoot or the favorites would win every game.
B. It’s logical to call it a crapshoot because FAU isn’t in the Final 4 without randomness and luck such as missing the 1 & 2 seed on their way there.
C. People with smaller brains than others can’t comprehend things such as randomness or luck in sports. I call those people Joe Beer Guts. They often populate message boards irate others don’t feel the way they do when their team lost and expect rage and anger. Their lives are often devoid of any real meaning that they allow themselves to get worked up their team lost a sports game and want to assign blame to the team and others. These people are terrible and tend to only find joy by making others as miserable as them
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A. It’s a fact the tournament is a crapshoot or the favorites would win every game.
B. It’s logical to call it a crapshoot because FAU isn’t in the Final 4 without randomness and luck such as missing the 1 & 2 seed on their way there.
C. People with smaller brains than others can’t comprehend things such as randomness or luck in sports. I call those people Joe Beer Guts. They often populate message boards irate others don’t feel the way they do when their team lost and expect rage and anger. Their lives are often devoid of any real meaning that they allow themselves to get worked up their team lost a sports game and want to assign blame to the team and others. These people are terrible and tend to only find joy by making others as miserable as them
A. Then by that logic / definition all sports ever played are a crapshoot. It’s a silly argument because it implies historical results should always be a predictor of future performance which is not how any of this works.
B. FAU is 35-3 and a Top 20 KenPom team what in the world is your point here? They’re not Fairleigh Dickinson.
C. I hope this one was therapeutic for you.
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A. Then by that logic / definition all sports ever played are a crapshoot. It’s a silly argument because it implies historical results should always be a predictor of future performance which is not how any of this works.
B. FAU is 35-3 and a Top 20 KenPom team what in the world is your point here? They’re not Fairleigh Dickinson.
C. I hope this one was therapeutic for you.
FAU has enjoyed good luck in avoiding the 1 & 2 seed. Crapshoot
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Two things can be true, Marquette had a great 35 games and also blew a great chance to win a championship.
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Two things can be true, Marquette had a great 35 games and also blew a great chance to win a championship.
Yup
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Yup
Way too many people expecting linear progression next year, you have to capitalize on the chances you have.
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Way too many people expecting linear progression next year, you have to capitalize on the chances you have.
Both things can be true. Expectations of progression come from the growth seen across the roster versus last year. Each player has things they can get better at and given the growth from last season, I don’t think expectations of improving on what was a very good season is unrealistic.
Nothing is guaranteed in ‘23-‘24. However, I think faith in this staff and team is warranted and they’ll have another opportunity to do something special.
As we know, the tournament is a crapshoot, but I have faith Marquette will be in a good position entering it next year.
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No one said there isn’t more variability or irregularity than other playoff formats. You just constructed that straw man.
That is literally our argument. HOLY COW MAN
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Wolf - I agree.
MU had a great regular season. Almost a “ perfect “ season…. But, they also completely blew it in the tournament.
HUGE disappointment to lose to an average MSU.
And … you’re also correct that even if
the whole team is back ( which I think is likely) there are way too many variables … to predict results better than this year
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Way too many people expecting linear progression next year, you have to capitalize on the chances you have.
I expect next season to be a good one for our alma mater's basketball team, and I expect the team to again have a legitimate chance to have March success. Hopefully, our best players will excel when those chances present themselves next time.
Two things can be true, Marquette had a great 35 games and also blew a great chance to win a championship.
Sure. Are lots of Scoopers saying otherwise?
I choose to be optimistic about next season. And I choose not to lose my mind about this one because losing my mind won't change the outcome. Others are free to lose their minds, though.
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Factually correct. KenPom stats were able to narrow this field to like 7-10 teams before the first game was even played.
Two of them are in the Final Four and two others are playing for a spot today.
Just saying “incorrect” is not sufficient to support your emotional opinion.
FAU was not in that 7-10 team mix. Ranked 23rd coming in and still far outside the top 10. No one had them as a metric title contender. That's simply not true.
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FAU was not in that 7-10 team mix. Ranked 23rd coming in and still far outside the top 10. No one had them as a metric title contender. That's simply not true.
The metric is top 25 offensive AND defensive efficiency.
They're 4 away from the bright line in defensive efficiency. They're within for offensive efficiency.
Texas, UConn, and Creighton are all well within for both.
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When was the last time anyone had a perfect bracket?
Well, I didn't want to brag, but you know...
Really, it's not that hard when you fill it out after each game.
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I expect next season to be a good one for our alma mater's basketball team, and I expect the team to again have a legitimate chance to have March success. Hopefully, our best players will excel when those chances present themselves next time.
Sure. Are lots of Scoopers saying otherwise?
I choose to be optimistic about next season. And I choose not to lose my mind about this one because losing my mind won't change the outcome. Others are free to lose their minds, though.
I think too many people are underestimating how good a setup we had this year to make a good run at a championship. The chances we have a better season than this one are slim.
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I think too many people are underestimating how good a setup we had this year to make a good run at a championship. The chances we have a better season than this one are slim.
Why?
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That is literally our argument. HOLY COW MAN
Your argument is that the tournament is a "crapshoot".
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Your argument is that the tournament is a "crapshoot".
It is
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It is
Yes we know what you think
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The metric is top 25 offensive AND defensive efficiency.
They're 4 away from the bright line in defensive efficiency. They're within for offensive efficiency.
Texas, UConn, and Creighton are all well within for both.
They were outside on both when the tournament started. #31 offense, #36 defense. They weren't a contender when this tournament started.
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They were outside on both when the tournament started. #31 offense, #36 defense. They weren't a contender when this tournament started.
So they've played like one of the best teams in the country over the last 4 games such that their full season metrics now identify them as a national championship contender? Doesn't seem very crapshooty to me.
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Factually correct. KenPom stats were able to narrow this field to like 7-10 teams before the first game was even played.
Two of them are in the Final Four and two others are playing for a spot today.
Just saying “incorrect” is not sufficient to support your emotional opinion.
You said the champ, Final 4, and even the Elite 8 are easily predictable. My response saying that is incorrect is not based on emotion. It's based on logic.
Your argument in regards to where a group of teams rank in offensive and defensive efficiency is not remotely the same as saying the champ, Final 4, and Elite 8 are easily predictable. Saying the final 4 is likely to come from this group of teams that rated top XX in offensive and defensive efficiency is not the same thing as actually predicting the specific teams.
If they were easily predictable, a lot more experts and even non-experts would get them right year after year yet that never happens. Weird.
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I think too many people are underestimating how good a setup we had this year to make a good run at a championship. The chances we have a better season than this one are slim.
We'll see.
We could go 14-6 and finish 3rd in the Big East, lose in the second round of the BET, and then reach the Final Four. Would that be "better" or "worse"?
Based on what we know today -- that all of our key players will return -- I believe we'll have a very good 2023-24 season. I see no reason why any Marquette fan would believe otherwise.
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So they've played like one of the best teams in the country over the last 4 games such that their full season metrics now identify them as a national championship contender? Doesn't seem very crapshooty to me.
They played a 16 seed in game 2, correct?
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You said the champ, Final 4, and even the Elite 8 are easily predictable. My response saying that is incorrect is not based on emotion. It's based on logic.
Your argument in regards to where a group of teams rank in offensive and defensive efficiency is not remotely the same as saying the champ, Final 4, and Elite 8 are easily predictable. Saying the final 4 is likely to come from this group of teams that rated top XX in offensive and defensive efficiency is not the same thing as actually predicting the specific teams.
If they were easily predictable, a lot more experts and even non-experts would get them right year after year yet that never happens. Weird.
Yup. Crapshoot
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You said the champ, Final 4, and even the Elite 8 are easily predictable. My response saying that is incorrect is not based on emotion. It's based on logic.
Your argument in regards to where a group of teams rank in offensive and defensive efficiency is not remotely the same as saying the champ, Final 4, and Elite 8 are easily predictable. Saying the final 4 is likely to come from this group of teams that rated top XX in offensive and defensive efficiency is not the same thing as actually predicting the specific teams.
If they were easily predictable, a lot more experts and even non-experts would get them right year after year yet that never happens. Weird.
I don't see how not predicting each and every game or predicting the EXACT Elite Eight, Sweet Sixteen, etc as if you were a fortune teller means the tournament, on the whole, is a crapshoot.
If your point is that the rankings / order of Kenpom, TRank, name your stats website, is the definitive ranking / order of "best" teams and any deviation from this makes it a crapshoot then I think the fundamental misunderstanding is the meaning of the word crapshoot. Everything is a crapshoot then and you might as well hang banners based on stats.
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They played a 16 seed in game 2, correct?
KenPom's AdjO and AdjD stats take into account quality of opponent. Thanks.
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It is fully random what shows up on the dice when you throw them. There are more combinations of faces that can make a 7 but the faces that come up are fully random.
Which is why you can bet on things like a hard or soft number.
The NCAA tournament is not a crapshoot.
Well, now regardless of what I thought before, you have convinced me that it is indeed a crapshoot, by your definition.
Because, even if statistically it may be more likely for certain higher seeds to win, there are way more combinations (think scores, turnovers, shooting percentage, fouls called) by which they can win (especially in relation to the numbers in actual craps), so the way in which they win is completely random.
So, definitely a crapshoot.
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We'll see.
We could go 14-6 and finish 3rd in the Big East, lose in the second round of the BET, and then reach the Final Four. Would that be "better" or "worse"?
Based on what we know today -- that all of our key players will return -- I believe we'll have a very good 2023-24 season. I see no reason why any Marquette fan would believe otherwise.
I hope so too MU
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Well, now regardless of what I thought before, you have convinced me that it is indeed a crapshoot, by your definition.
Because, even if statistically it may be more likely for certain higher seeds to win, there are way more combinations by which they can win (especially in relation to the numbers in actual craps), so the way in which they win is completely random.
So, definitely a crapshoot.
It’s been great to watch 😂
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KenPom's AdjO and AdjD stats take into account quality of opponent. Thanks.
You're welcome? My point is that FAU did not have to play the #1 seed. 9 times out of 10 they lose that game
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So they've played like one of the best teams in the country over the last 4 games such that their full season metrics now identify them as a national championship contender? Doesn't seem very crapshooty to me.
Umm...you really don't get how this works, do you?
First, using tournament data to prove your point fails because the crapshoot aspect is based on where things stand when the tourney starts, not where it ends.
Second, if you sort Torvik starting the day after Selection Sunday, FAU ranks 27th overall. That's only third best in C-USA behind North Texas & UAB. Despite going 4-0, they are barely ahead of #29 Marquette who went 1-1.
Third, FAU is at #29 on offense & #52 on defense. Which means during their tourney run they are even further from being a contender by your own criteria than they were coming in. They were #33 & #35 per Torvik through Selection Sunday. So minimal offensive improvement & their defense has been worse.
The more you debate, the weaker your argument gets.
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You're welcome? My point is that FAU did not have to play the #1 seed. 9 times out of 10 they lose that game
How do you factor in Purdue being hot garbage into that equation ?
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I don't see how not predicting each and every game or predicting the EXACT Elite Eight, Sweet Sixteen, etc as if you were a fortune teller means the tournament, on the whole, is a crapshoot.
If your point is that the rankings / order of Kenpom, TRank, name your stats website, is the definitive ranking / order of "best" teams and any deviation from this makes it a crapshoot then I think the fundamental misunderstanding is the meaning of the word crapshoot. Everything is a crapshoot then and you might as well hang banners based on stats.
A variety of metrics give us indicators throughout the season about the quality, strengths, and weaknesses of the teams in the tournament. On the whole, it makes sense that a higher percentage of the teams that rank a certain way will make the elite 8, final 4 and championship game. Yet more often than not their are multiple unexpected outcomes throughout the 63 games of the tourney, and I'm not talking about a 10 beating a 7. And sometimes those unexpected outcomes throw things further into flux.
Take the 2002 Indiana Hoosiers, for example. I hate IU because I never liked Bobby Knight but more because I have a couple of close friends that are delusional and believe IU is still a blue blood even though all objective indicators tell them otherwise. IU made the Final 4 in 2002 as a 5 seed. They beat one single digit seed to get there. Otherwise they beat a 12, a 13, and 10. Beating 3 double digit seeds to get to a final 4 is an indicator of the randomness of the tourney as whole. IE a crapshoot. Do they Hoosiers make it that far if they faced chalk? The chances are much, much lower that would have been the case. There are all sorts of examples like this.
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You're welcome? My point is that FAU did not have to play the #1 seed. 9 times out of 10 they lose that game
9 times out of 10 FAU would lose to Purdue?
I would take that bet if I could.
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How do you factor in Purdue being hot garbage into that equation ?
They just won the big 10 tourney,
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Umm...you really don't get how this works, do you?
First, using tournament data to prove your point fails because the crapshoot aspect is based on where things stand when the tourney starts, not where it ends.
Second, if you sort Torvik starting the day after Selection Sunday, FAU ranks 27th overall. That's only third best in C-USA behind North Texas & UAB. Despite going 4-0, they are barely ahead of #29 Marquette who went 1-1.
Third, FAU is at #29 on offense & #52 on defense. Which means during their tourney run they are even further from being a contender by your own criteria than they were coming in. They were #33 & #35 per Torvik through Selection Sunday. So minimal offensive improvement & their defense has been worse.
The more you debate, the weaker your argument gets.
So how did they come into the tournament 36th in AdjD per your own stat, since then they are 52nd per the stat you just gave me, but their current AdjD on KenPom's website is 29th?
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Do you guys even realize there is a pretty competitive game happening right now?
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Do you guys even realize there is a pretty competitive game happening right now?
I like blowouts, like this argument
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So how did they come into the tournament 36th in AdjD per your own stat, since then they are 52nd per the stat you just gave me, but their current AdjD on KenPom's website is 29th?
Once you figure out Pomeroy's algorithm, you can tell us, but the simple reality is at no point have they been playing at a national title contender level by your definition. Not before the tourney and not during the tourney.
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Once you figure out Pomeroy's algorithm, you can tell us, but the simple reality is at no point have they been playing at a national title contender level by your definition. Not before the tourney and not during the tourney.
It's a mathematical impossibility.
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Damn, I was just preparing the “we had 4 wins against the final 4 teams” banners for all of you.
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While true, moot. MSU played better on that day. They deserved the win.
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Does the title of national champion also mean "best team in the country"?
I think an analogy is the winner of The British Open ( now called The Open Championship)
At the award ceremony , when they give The Claret Jug to “ The Champion Golfer of The Year “
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Y’all are insane with this takes. Feel like a coping mechanism more than anything.
If Marquette goes to the Elite 8 next year, and finished say, third in conference this season will be a blip on the radar.
If the question is "would you rather have Marquette's season or Creighton's?" this year, the answer is obviously Marquette's and for me it's not close. Not remotely close.
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While true, moot. MSU played better on that day. They deserved the win.
We only lost to Michigan State because some Scoopers dared to talk about whether they preferred Kentucky or K-State as a potential opponent.
I mean, that’s science.
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We only lost to Michigan State because some Scoopers dared to talk about whether they preferred Kentucky or K-State as a potential opponent.
I mean, that’s science.
No those Scoopers just made our fanbase look like pompous asses and ruined the vibes we had going for us
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You are literally too stupid to insult.
Anyone ever notice how the only arguments this dude can muster are either calling people stupid or insulting their penis or sexual prowess? Does anyone else see the irony in this?
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Anyone ever notice how the only arguments this dude can muster are either calling people stupid or insulting their penis or sexual prowess? Does anyone else see the irony in this?
I’ve pointed it out numerous times. It’s a classic inferiority mechanism.
I will give him credit he presented an actual argument after I called him out on this like 4 times.
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Anyone ever notice how the only arguments this dude can muster are either calling people stupid or insulting their penis or sexual prowess? Does anyone else see the irony in this?
You must have ignored my other posts, Biff.
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I’ve pointed it out numerous times. It’s a classic inferiority mechanism.
I will give him credit he presented an actual argument after I called him out on this like 4 times.
I look forward to his witty reply in which he, like all 13 year old boys, calls us out for never having touched a woman or talks about our baby dicks. Kinda weird how an adult seems so focused on infant genetalia. Whatever though, he’s “proving how stupid” we are and shining a bright light on his level of intelligence.
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You must have ignored my other posts, Biff.
I ignore them in the same way I’d ignore what a 5 year old has to say about the Theory of Relativity. Notice how the Biff at the end brings that 13 year old mentality to the post. Never change man.
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I’ve pointed it out numerous times. It’s a classic inferiority mechanism.
I will give him credit he presented an actual argument after I called him out on this like 4 times.
Which you, shockingly, ignored.
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Which you, shockingly, ignored.
I literally replied to it
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I literally replied to it
You did not. Not the most recent post I'm referring to.
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We only lost to Michigan State because some Scoopers dared to talk about whether they preferred Kentucky or K-State as a potential opponent.
I mean, that’s science.
We scoopers lost our edge early in the tourney, many of us were looking past the mighty 15 game win streak Catamounts right from the very beginning - we should have heeded those calling us out.
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We scoopers lost our edge early in the tourney, many of us were looking past the mighty 15 game win streak Catamounts right from the very beginning - we should have headed those calling us out.
First weekend exit directly in the face of your cringeworthy hubris and you STILL run with it.
Bravo.
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Marquette was too poor of a rebounding team to be able to win this tournament.
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First weekend exit directly in the face of your cringeworthy hubris and you STILL run with it.
Bravo.
I was not the first round pants pisser like you.
2nd round - Marquette played crapty and had a PG with bad thumb. Still should have won as MSU is not that good.
Cringeworthy hubris? Are you going to keep up with the chickshiit posts before every game even though Marquette will be a likely top 5 ranked team next year?
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I was not the first round pants pisser like you.
2nd round - Marquette played crapty and had a PG with bad thumb. Still should have won as MSU is not that good.
Cringeworthy hubris? Are you going to keep up with the chickshiit posts before every game even though Marquette will be a likely top 5 ranked team next year?
Pants pisser? I simply said let’s talk about the game on our schedule. You’re insane.
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Pants pisser? I simply said let’s talk about the game on our schedule. You’re insane.
Oops my bad, you were just telling us how good Vermont was and we (scoopers) need to focus on one game at a time.
You sure are cranky at a lot of scoopers. You still down we didn’t all thank you enough for getting us Shaka?
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Oops my bad, you were just telling us how good Vermont was and we (scoopers) need to focus on one game at a time.
You sure are cranky at a lot of scoopers. You still down we didn’t all thank you enough for getting us Shaka?
You need therapy.
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No those Scoopers just made our fanbase look like pompous asses and ruined the vibes we had going for us
We clearly lost because some COLE-slawers were unwilling to have confidence that our team was about to embark on a long NCAA tourney run. They wouldn't even buy into a win over mighty Vermont! Their insecurity and superstition obviously spread to the Marquette players, ruining the vibes we had going for us and costing us a certain national title. Thanks a lot!
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We clearly lost because some COLE-slawers were unwilling to have confidence that our team was about to embark on a long NCAA tourney run. They wouldn't even buy into a win over mighty Vermont! Their insecurity and superstition obviously spread to the Marquette players, ruining the vibes we had going for us and costing us a certain national title. Thanks a lot!
Based on this rant, I don’t think you even read my post.
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Well - I deleted it cause I know you would took it hard. But you quoted it quickly, so let it live on. You really are cranky with a lot of posters and calling out people need therapy for obvious sarcasm you don't understand is a pretty bad look...
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Well - I think when someone uses that reponse, it may be a little insight to their MUScoop soul... for fun , let's look back at less than 10 days of your interactions on Scoop. Glad I am not the only one you have a problem with (I am in good company).
I love people's direct replies to you:
From Vander Blue Man Group: You are literally too stupid to insult.
From Panda: Buddy do you have aspergers?
How much mental strength does it take to understand sarcasm?
From Jockey: Wades knows basketball. You don’t.
From Hawk: You people are retarded. Get over it.
And you get along so well with many posters...
To Vander Blue Man group:
I love these responses because they show how weak you truly are. Can’t stay on topic so we just go to insults.
Do you understand that or are you, well, dumb?
To Uncle Rico:
Thanks Judge Judy
Then you don’t really understand sports at all.
Love when your argument falls apart so you just go to condescending snark. It’s incredible.
To jesumu84
Because you use words and then make arguments that don’t align with the definition of the words you are using.
To UnleashSean
You are so unaware lol.
To JohnnyB
Huff as much copium as it takes. I was as right as anyone could possibly be, early too. And bitching from people like me forced the admin’s hand.
To We R Final 4
Why not? Because you’re a pretentious know-it-all? These kids have a chance to be the foundation of something special, I don’t think that’s lost on them.
Wow. Just wow.
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Based on this rant, I don’t think you even read my post.
Thanks for costing Marquette the national title.
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Thanks for costing Marquette the national title.
Unhinged from reality
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Well - I deleted it cause I know you would took it hard. But you quoted it quickly, so let it live on. You really are cranky with a lot of posters and calling out people need therapy for obvious sarcasm you don't understand is a pretty bad look...
I’ve been called every different name in the book just for giving basketball opinions. Rolls off my back.
It’s wild how quickly people will go to personal insults on this board, including you. But if they do - I’m not afraid to respond.
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Unhinged from reality
Glad you don't call people names like "unhinged."
I hope you're able to live with yourself after costing our alma mater the title. If only Michigan State had been whistled for defensive 3 seconds a few times, maybe we'd have beaten them despite your vibe-killing COLE.
And congrats on being the only person to have picked Florida Atlantic, San Diego State, Miami and UConn to reach the Final Four because you knew they were the 4 best teams in the land.
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I am one of the scoopers that discussed if we should prefer Kentucky or KSU before the MSU game. I feel responsible for the loss and should probably be banned. I did, however, change seats while watching the MSU game in effort to get good vibes going. However, in the game thread, I implored other scoopers to change their seats too, which probably offset my own good vibe effort.
I’ve learned my lesson. I’ll never look past an opponent again. Even if it’s Chicago State early in the season. Because I’ve learned my lesson, I think we should all feel good about next season. And I should be declared a knower of ball.
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I am one of the scoopers that discussed if we should prefer Kentucky or KSU before the MSU game. I feel responsible for the loss and should probably be banned. I did, however, change seats while watching the MSU game in effort to get good vibes going. However, in the game thread, I implored other scoopers to change their seats too, which probably offset my own good vibe effort.
I’ve learned my lesson. I’ll never look past an opponent again. Even if it’s Chicago State early in the season. Because I’ve learned my lesson, I think we should all feel good about next season. And I should be declared a knower of ball.
Your penance is to change your screen name to “Pompous Ass” or “Killer of 2023 NCAA Vibes” until next tourney
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Just catching up - Have I missed this and you are ALL chicos? I haven't seen "crapshoot" posted so much since....chicos.
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I am one of the scoopers that discussed if we should prefer Kentucky or KSU before the MSU game. I feel responsible for the loss and should probably be banned. I did, however, change seats while watching the MSU game in effort to get good vibes going. However, in the game thread, I implored other scoopers to change their seats too, which probably offset my own good vibe effort.
I’ve learned my lesson. I’ll never look past an opponent again. Even if it’s Chicago State early in the season. Because I’ve learned my lesson, I think we should all feel good about next season. And I should be declared a knower of ball.
I also asked the question who we would prefer between Kstate and Kentucky. I have taken my 5 lashings and will force myself to watch Wisconsin vs North Texas as punishment.
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will force myself to watch Wisconsin vs North Texas as punishment.
NOOOOOOOOO! Nobody deserves that!
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I also asked the question who we would prefer between Kstate and Kentucky. I have taken my 5 lashings and will force myself to watch Wisconsin vs North Texas as punishment.
(https://www.flickeringmyth.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/a-clockwork-orange.jpg)
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I also asked the question who we would prefer between Kstate and Kentucky. I have taken my 5 lashings and will force myself to watch Wisconsin vs North Texas as punishment.
What are you, opus dei?
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Just catching up - Have I missed this and you are ALL chicos? I haven't seen "crapshoot" posted so much since....chicos.
Kudos to PRN for lighting the fuse
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I am one of the scoopers that discussed if we should prefer Kentucky or KSU before the MSU game. I feel responsible for the loss and should probably be banned. I did, however, change seats while watching the MSU game in effort to get good vibes going. However, in the game thread, I implored other scoopers to change their seats too, which probably offset my own good vibe effort.
I’ve learned my lesson. I’ll never look past an opponent again. Even if it’s Chicago State early in the season. Because I’ve learned my lesson, I think we should all feel good about next season. And I should be declared a knower of ball.
Speaking of superstitions, your Honor,
How is old Billy Barrooo ⛳️ workin for ya?
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Speaking of superstitions, your Honor,
How is old Billy Barrooo ⛳️ workin for ya?
pretty good, thanks. Shiot 82 today. 38 on the back nine with lots of one putts.
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The crapshoot part of the tournament refers to who you play. It shouldn’t apply to how you play.
It’s not a “crapshoot” that we lost to a team we are clearly better than.
I don’t know what it was…could’ve been a let down from the BET. I am not in the camp of Kolek’s thumb being the issue.
But with our seed, our bracket and the way we were playing, it is the most disappointing NCAA tournament performance we’ve had in 40 years.
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The crapshoot part of the tournament refers to who you play. It shouldn’t apply to how you play.
It’s not a “crapshoot” that we lost to a team we are clearly better than.
I don’t know what it was…could’ve been a let down from the BET. I am not in the camp of Kolek’s thumb being the issue.
But with our seed, our bracket and the way we were playing, it is the most disappointing NCAA tournament performance we’ve had in 40 years.
Lol