2024-25 NBA Thread

[The Sultan]

Luka gets tossed for talking sh*t to a fan.
NBA refs, man.

Imagine tossing Luka in the fourth quarter of a game between two of the top teams in the league because you mistaking thought he was talking to you. Just dumb stuff.

[wadesworld]

I haven't been paying attention. Is Durant leading them to another title?

Thank God Steph and the Warriors got the ultimate winner in Jimmy Butler to put them on his back.  They need an alpha and KD was never it, despite being the 2x Finals MVP.  Butler, having won so many titles himself without being on the Warriors, is just what that team needed.

[Jockey]

Thank God Steph and the Warriors got the ultimate winner in Jimmy Butler to put them on his back.  They need an alpha and KD was never it, despite being the 2x Finals MVP.  Butler, having won so many titles himself without being on the Warriors, is just what that team needed.

KD has been lucky enough to play with HoFers his entire career and didn't lead them anywhere. He only got his title when Steph & Draymond dragged him there.

He is a big-time scorer. He has never been a leader.

[The Sultan]

KD has been lucky enough to play with HoFers his entire career and didn't lead them anywhere. He only got his title when Steph & Draymond dragged him there.

Yes he was "dragged there" by <checks notes> leading the team in scoring all three years he was there, and winning two Finals MVPs.

Seriously, you are a man of many bad takes. This may be your worst, and that's saying something.

[Jockey]

Yes he was "dragged there" by <checks notes> leading the team in scoring all three years he was there, and winning two Finals MVPs.

Seriously, you are a man of many bad takes. This may be your worst, and that's saying something.

All I want is one answer.

Would GS have been the favorite to win the title if they never got Durant?

[The Sultan]

All I want is one answer.

Would GS have been the favorite to win the title if they never got Durant?

Maybe in year 1? They lost to Cleveland the year prior, but with KD they blew the doors off everyone in the playoffs. But they don't win it in year two without him. The Rockets would have been the clearly better team.

Regardless, Durant was not only a member of those teams, but the leading scorer. Your continuing desire to somehow downgrade that, and claim he was "dragged" to a title, is beyond silly.

[Hards Alumni]

Thats where I am too.  He's a better scorer and passer than Russell, neither are remotely arguable.  But Russell was the best player (and top 3 in MVP voting when not winning it) on 8 straight championship teams.  Even if he was averaging 10 pts and 10 rebounds on those teams, that would still be tough to deny.

Jokic will never catch Kareem cause he's not playing till he's in his 40s, among other reasons.  But the head to head stat comps are actually pretty fun.  Through their first 10 seasons

Kareem: 28/14/4 on 55% shooting
Jokic:  22/12/7 on 56% shooting (Jokic more efficient cause about 20% of his shots are from 3)

But of note, Kareem averaged 41 MPG over that stretch, Jokic has averaged 32 MPG.  So if you will wanted to look at a per 48...

Kareem: 33/17/5
Jokic:  33/17/11

The other wriggle is Kareem came to the NBA as a 22 year old polished 3X NCAA POY, 3X NCAA champ.  Jokic came as a still raw 20 year old who played on a terrible team in Serbia.  He was Adriatic League MVP.  But other 20 year old ABA MVPs include middling NBA players like Goga Bitadze and Dario Saric (who actually played in Turkey for another few years after his MVP before he came to Philly.

So if you instead look at Kareem at 23 (his first MVP) vs Jokic at 23 (when he had his first good year though still not an All Star) till their 29/30 year...


Kareem: 30/15/4 on 55% shooting
Jokic:  25/12/9 on 56% shooting

And the per 48...

Kareem: 34/17/5 on 55% shooting
Jokic:  35/17/12 on 56% shooting

Pretty damn close.  Jokic more efficient as a scorer, much better passer.  Kareem a much superior defender.  If you look at PER, Jokic outpaces him there, largely due to the assist factor.

But again, Kareem was the best player of his comp set from 16 till his mid 30s.  Jokic will never have 6 rings like Kareem and he won't rack up tons of countable stacks from being a useful player into his late 30s (i assume).  So I'm fine saying Jokic won't catch Kareem.  But I think it speaks to Jokic's otherwordly, almost underrated historical brilliance, that he's just as good at his peak right now (arguably better as an overall player) than Kareem was at his.

Kareem also played against far worse talent, which is something to consider.

[BM1090]

Maybe in year 1? They lost to Cleveland the year prior, but with KD they blew the doors off everyone in the playoffs. But they don't win it in year two without him. The Rockets would have been the clearly better team.

Regardless, Durant was not only a member of those teams, but the leading scorer. Your continuing desire to somehow downgrade that, and claim he was "dragged" to a title, is beyond silly.

I don't know. They beat a similar Houston team the third year when KD was out. They could have beat them without KD in 2018 too.

They matched up better with Houston specifically without KD and more ball movement, which I think we saw in 2019.

I do think Cleveland beats GS one of those title years if they didn't have KD though, and Jockey's take is obviously hyperbolic absurdity.

[JWags85]

Maybe in year 1? They lost to Cleveland the year prior, but with KD they blew the doors off everyone in the playoffs. But they don't win it in year two without him. The Rockets would have been the clearly better team.

Regardless, Durant was not only a member of those teams, but the leading scorer. Your continuing desire to somehow downgrade that, and claim he was "dragged" to a title, is beyond silly.

Leading scorer, second leading rebounder, second in assists that year.  He also led the team in shot attempts when Curry took a step back in attempts (his lowest FGA/G of his career since he became a starter) cause KD was the guy.  Mind you, this was Steph 2 years off of an MVP year too.

KD was an absolute monster in the playoffs.  Had a win share double that of Curry in those playoffs and was the best player in the WCF against the near unanimous MVP in Harden.  KD averaged more points and rebounds than him while shooting 49/40/92 for the series while Harden was an inefficient mess trying to keep up and shooting 25% from 3.

[Jockey]

Maybe in year 1? They lost to Cleveland the year prior, but with KD they blew the doors off everyone in the playoffs. But they don't win it in year two without him. The Rockets would have been the clearly better team.

Regardless, Durant was not only a member of those teams, but the leading scorer. Your continuing desire to somehow downgrade that, and claim he was "dragged" to a title, is beyond silly.

I have never denigrated Durant. I have literally called him one of the 20 greatest basketball players to ever live on this planet.

But he is what he is. One of the best scorers ever. Not a guy to lead teams to titles even though he has played with 1st ballot HoFers everywhere he has been. Sometimes multiple HoFers that he still hasn't been able to lead to the mountaintop.

[wadesworld]

I have never denigrated Durant. I have literally called him one of the 20 greatest basketball players to ever live on this planet.

But he is what he is. One of the best scorers ever. Not a guy to lead teams to titles even though he has played with 1st ballot HoFers everywhere he has been. Sometimes multiple HoFers that he still hasn't been able to lead to the mountaintop.

But he literally led the Warriors to 2 titles.  And then when he was hurt they didn't win the title.

But hey.  The Warriors finally found that missing piece that has won so much elsewhere unlike KD in Jimmy Butler.  They have their alpha now.  LOL.

[BM1090]

I have never denigrated Durant. I have literally called him one of the 20 greatest basketball players to ever live on this planet.

But he is what he is. One of the best scorers ever. Not a guy to lead teams to titles even though he has played with 1st ballot HoFers everywhere he has been. Sometimes multiple HoFers that he still hasn't been able to lead to the mountaintop.

Hypothetical for you. If Kyrie doesn't get hurt against the Bucks, we all know the Nets win that series. Durant was clearly their best player. You think they lose to the Hawks or the Suns?

He's been on very good Thunder teams that had to run into the Heat and Warriors dynasties. He also led the Thunder to the finals as a 24 year old, knocking out an excellent Spurs team and the past two NBA champions on the way there.

His lack of title runs outside of GS is far more about circumstance than it is about his abilities or leadership.

[wadesworld]

Hypothetical for you. If Kyrie doesn't get hurt against the Bucks, we all know the Nets win that series. Durant was clearly their best player. You think they lose to the Hawks or the Suns?

He's been on very good Thunder teams that had to run into the Heat and Warriors dynasties. He also led the Thunder to the finals as a 24 year old, knocking out an excellent Spurs team and the past two NBA champions on the way there. If

His lack of title runs outside of GS is far more about circumstance than it is about his abilities or leadership.

KD only averaged 35.4 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 5.4 apg, 1.6 steals/game, and 1.1 blocks per game on 50% from the field, 35% from 3, and 83% from the free throw line in the Bucks 7 game series.

He only went for 48 points, 9 rebounds, 6 assists on 47% shooting and 36% from 3.  Game 5 he just had 49 points, 17 rebounds, 10 assists on 70% from the field, 44% from 3.  But his toe was on the line in game 7.  Total choker in the Playoffs.  Not an alpha.

[MU82]

Durant has had an incredible career. We'll never know what titles he'd have won in other circumstances, or whether the Warriors would or wouldn't have won without him those two years. To state any of it as fact is kinda silly. The facts are that he excelled to help GS win titles, that GS also was able to win titles without him, and that for a variety of reasons he never won titles elsewhere.

wades, it's also kinda silly to diminish what Butler has meant to the Warriors since he joined them. They were dead in the water before he arrived, and Steph came right out and said he was resigned to being an also-ran. Now they seem like legit contenders and their swagger is back. Obviously, the next two months will determine if that's the case. And no, Butler never won a ring with Miami, but I don't think you'd dispute that he carried good-but-not-great teams to the Finals twice.

[Pakuni]

Not to take sides in the pissing match, but which is more likely:

1. The Warriors win titles in 2017 and 2018 with Jimmy instead of KD.
2. The Heat make the Finals in 2020 and 2023 with KD instead of Jimmy.

[Jockey]

Hypothetical for you. If Kyrie doesn't get hurt against the Bucks, we all know the Nets win that series. Durant was clearly their best player. You think they lose to the Hawks or the Suns?

He's been on very good Thunder teams that had to run into the Heat and Warriors dynasties. He also led the Thunder to the finals as a 24 year old, knocking out an excellent Spurs team and the past two NBA champions on the way there.

His lack of title runs outside of GS is far more about circumstance than it is about his abilities or leadership.

We don't know what would have happened if Kyrie was healthy. The games would have been different. Maybe they win. Maybe not.


The circumstances were that he has always played with other 1st ballot HoFers on his teams.

[wadesworld]

The circumstances were that he has always played with other 1st ballot HoFers on his teams.

Most all stars that win titles do.

MJ never won a title without a first ballot HOFer.  Not an alpha.  Same with Shaq.  Same with Kobe.  LBJ will have the same story unless he separates himself from Luka, joins a team that won't have a first ballot HOFer, and carries a team to a title a 42+ years old.  And then the GOAT conversation is WAY over.  Alpha Jimmy Butler won't have won one without a First Ballot HOFer.  Etc. etc. etc.

Your argument is, "KD needed good players on his team to win a title."  Well no sh!t.

[The Sultan]

Most all stars that win titles do.

MJ never won a title without a first ballot HOFer.  Not an alpha.  Same with Shaq.  Same with Kobe.  LBJ will have the same story unless he separates himself from Luka, joins a team that won't have a first ballot HOFer, and carries a team to a title a 42+ years old.  And then the GOAT conversation is WAY over.  Alpha Jimmy Butler won't have won one without a First Ballot HOFer.  Etc. etc. etc.

Your argument is, "KD needed good players on his team to win a title."  Well no sh!t.

Same with Kareem...Magic...Bird...

[MuggsyB]

I'm not always right, but I hit when it comes to Austin Reaves.  I stated his contract (when it happened) was an absolute steal.  Now that he's the #3 guy on the Lakers, it makes him very dangerous. The guy can score in a variety of ways. 

[MuggsyB]

Luka with 31 at the half.  Lol. 

[Pakuni]

Bulls need to clean house, but the front office definitely got the Giddey trade and Buzelis pick right.

[MU82]

Luka with 31 at the half.  Lol. 

In my days hoopin' at Helfaer, I was exactly like Luka - except for the skill part.

I totally rocked the slow-motion movement and 15 pounds overweight parts of it.

[BM1090]

We don't know what would have happened if Kyrie was healthy. The games would have been different. Maybe they win. Maybe not.


The circumstances were that he has always played with other 1st ballot HoFers on his teams.

Gonna assume you're trolling at this point.

[WhiteTrash]

Bulls need to clean house, but the front office definitely got the Giddey trade and Buzelis pick right.

Not the Patrick Williams $90M deal also?

[Jockey]

Gonna assume you're trolling at this point.

N. I just disagree with your point. You might be right.

But stars are judged by championships. Karl Malone was a great player. But he would be looked at differently if he had a couple titles. LBJ, MJ, MAGIC, Bird, Russell, etc. are looked at differently because of leading teams to titles. Durant would never have a title if he hadn't gone to Golden State. We would look at him the same way we look at Malone.

It's obvious that we will never agree on this. And that is cool and what makes sports discussions fun.