2024-25 NBA Thread

[wadesworld]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44525515/ja-morant-uses-finger-gun-gesture-earlier-warning

Lol.

[MuggsyB]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44525515/ja-morant-uses-finger-gun-gesture-earlier-warning

Lol.

Smh. 

[MuggsyB]

Every time I get a chance to watch Curry, I come away with the belief that he's somehow underrated.  I don't think his stats come close to actually illustrating his value.  When a guy causes the entire defense to pay attention to him all over the floor, not to mention the constant double teams, you're talking a one man wrecking crew.  He and Jokic are different obviously, but they make the guys around them better unlike anything I've seen. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Anybody who knows anything about basketball history would include Wilt, Russell and Kareem on any list of 5 all-time greatest centers. Most also would include Shaq.

Is there anyone else who could possibly keep Jokic out of the top 5? Olajuwon maybe? Moses?

In his day, Duncan usually was considered a power forward FWIW.

Id put Hakeem and Jokic above Shaq. Jokic gonna be in the top 3 by the time he retires.

[Uncle Rico]

Jokic looks like a gym rat

[The Sultan]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44525515/ja-morant-uses-finger-gun-gesture-earlier-warning

Lol.

Kinda think this really isn't that big of a deal.

[Uncle Rico]

Kinda think this really isn't that big of a deal.

Correct.  People need to reed the constituition

[Billy Hoyle]

Kinda think this really isn't that big of a deal.

agreed. It's only a story because of Ja's past gun issues.

Wes used to do a bow and arrow thing after making a three and nobody got upset with that.

[GB Warrior]

agreed. It's only a story because of Ja's past gun issues.

Wes used to do a bow and arrow thing after making a three and nobody got upset with that.

America has a well documented archer problem

[wadesworld]

agreed. It's only a story because of Ja's past gun issues.

Wes used to do a bow and arrow thing after making a three and nobody got upset with that.

Right.  It's a big deal because he's been suspended for actual gun issues in the past, then was warned about making the gun motion 2 nights prior, and he goes out and does it again.

Then his comments post game are playing the victim.  "I've been the villain for the last 2 years so I don't care anymore."  Yeah, you did nothing to become "the villain."

[MUBurrow]

Right.  It's a big deal because he's been suspended for actual gun issues in the past, then was warned about making the gun motion 2 nights prior, and he goes out and does it again.

Then his comments post game are playing the victim.  "I've been the villain for the last 2 years so I don't care anymore."  Yeah, you did nothing to become "the villain."

He's just dying to be a tough guy, its so weird.

[The Sultan]

Right.  It's a big deal because he's been suspended for actual gun issues in the past, then was warned about making the gun motion 2 nights prior, and he goes out and does it again.

Then his comments post game are playing the victim.  "I've been the villain for the last 2 years so I don't care anymore."  Yeah, you did nothing to become "the villain."

So it's an inappropriate gesture just for him because of his previous suspensions for brandishing an actual weapon? That makes no sense.

Either it's an inappropriate form of taunting, and any player who does finger guns should be given a technical, or it's fine and the league should just let it go.

[wadesworld]

So it's an inappropriate gesture just for him because of his previous suspensions for brandishing an actual weapon? That makes no sense.

Either it's an inappropriate form of taunting, and any player who does finger guns should be given a technical, or it's fine and the league should just let it go.

That's how things go in all walks of life.  Punishments are more severe for repeat offenders of anything.

Seems like they're giving technicals out for the finger guns regularly.  But whether it's "fair" or not to Ja Morant, the NBA issued a warning to him not to do this 2 nights ago and he went out and did it in the very next game.  Only himself to blame if/when he gets suspended or fined.  Whether he had a reputation for previous actions (he does) doesn't really matter here.  He received a warning 48 hours prior to doing exactly what he was warned not to do.

[The Sultan]

That's how things go in all walks of life.  Punishments are more severe for repeat offenders of anything.

Seems like they're giving technicals out for the finger guns regularly.  But whether it's "fair" or not to Ja Morant, the NBA issued a warning to him not to do this 2 nights ago and he went out and did it in the very next game.  Only himself to blame if/when he gets suspended or fined.  Whether he had a reputation for previous actions (he does) doesn't really matter here.  He received a warning 48 hours prior to doing exactly what he was warned not to do.

A suspension would be ridiculous. Any punishment would be, unless the NBA makes this gesture unsportmanlike for everyone.

[BM1090]

Right.  It's a big deal because he's been suspended for actual gun issues in the past, then was warned about making the gun motion 2 nights prior, and he goes out and does it again.

Then his comments post game are playing the victim.  "I've been the villain for the last 2 years so I don't care anymore."  Yeah, you did nothing to become "the villain."

He's kind of an idiot, but I don't think it's a huge deal

[MU82]

Jokic gonna be in the top 3 by the time he retires.

Supplanting Wilt, Kareem or Russell?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Supplanting Wilt, Kareem or Russell?

Wilt. I think he may be better than Russell but you can't ignore the team success that Russell had. No way he catches Kareem.

[MU82]

Wilt. I think he may be better than Russell but you can't ignore the team success that Russell had. No way he catches Kareem.

Hmm. Fun discussion.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Hmm. Fun discussion.

The man is averaging a triple double and could play for 10 more years. He's going to obliterate the triple double record and unlike Westbrook he'll do it while winning at a high level.

[JWags85]

Wilt. I think he may be better than Russell but you can't ignore the team success that Russell had. No way he catches Kareem.

Thats where I am too.  He's a better scorer and passer than Russell, neither are remotely arguable.  But Russell was the best player (and top 3 in MVP voting when not winning it) on 8 straight championship teams.  Even if he was averaging 10 pts and 10 rebounds on those teams, that would still be tough to deny.

Jokic will never catch Kareem cause he's not playing till he's in his 40s, among other reasons.  But the head to head stat comps are actually pretty fun.  Through their first 10 seasons

Kareem: 28/14/4 on 55% shooting
Jokic:  22/12/7 on 56% shooting (Jokic more efficient cause about 20% of his shots are from 3)

But of note, Kareem averaged 41 MPG over that stretch, Jokic has averaged 32 MPG.  So if you will wanted to look at a per 48...

Kareem: 33/17/5
Jokic:  33/17/11

The other wriggle is Kareem came to the NBA as a 22 year old polished 3X NCAA POY, 3X NCAA champ.  Jokic came as a still raw 20 year old who played on a terrible team in Serbia.  He was Adriatic League MVP.  But other 20 year old ABA MVPs include middling NBA players like Goga Bitadze and Dario Saric (who actually played in Turkey for another few years after his MVP before he came to Philly.

So if you instead look at Kareem at 23 (his first MVP) vs Jokic at 23 (when he had his first good year though still not an All Star) till their 29/30 year...


Kareem: 30/15/4 on 55% shooting
Jokic:  25/12/9 on 56% shooting

And the per 48...

Kareem: 34/17/5 on 55% shooting
Jokic:  35/17/12 on 56% shooting

Pretty damn close.  Jokic more efficient as a scorer, much better passer.  Kareem a much superior defender.  If you look at PER, Jokic outpaces him there, largely due to the assist factor.

But again, Kareem was the best player of his comp set from 16 till his mid 30s.  Jokic will never have 6 rings like Kareem and he won't rack up tons of countable stacks from being a useful player into his late 30s (i assume).  So I'm fine saying Jokic won't catch Kareem.  But I think it speaks to Jokic's otherwordly, almost underrated historical brilliance, that he's just as good at his peak right now (arguably better as an overall player) than Kareem was at his.

[JWags85]

Thats where I am too.  He's a better scorer and passer than Russell, neither are remotely arguable.  But Russell was the best player (and top 3 in MVP voting when not winning it) on 8 straight championship teams.  Even if he was averaging 10 pts and 10 rebounds on those teams, that would still be tough to deny.

Jokic will never catch Kareem cause he's not playing till he's in his 40s, among other reasons.  But the head to head stat comps are actually pretty fun.  Through their first 10 seasons

Kareem: 28/14/4 on 55% shooting
Jokic:  22/12/7 on 56% shooting (Jokic more efficient cause about 20% of his shots are from 3)

But of note, Kareem averaged 41 MPG over that stretch, Jokic has averaged 32 MPG.  So if you will wanted to look at a per 48...

Kareem: 33/17/5
Jokic:  33/17/11

The other wriggle is Kareem came to the NBA as a 22 year old polished 3X NCAA POY, 3X NCAA champ.  Jokic came as a still raw 20 year old who played on a terrible team in Serbia.  He was Adriatic League MVP.  But other 20 year old ABA MVPs include middling NBA players like Goga Bitadze and Dario Saric (who actually played in Turkey for another few years after his MVP before he came to Philly.

So if you instead look at Kareem at 23 (his first MVP) vs Jokic at 23 (when he had his first good year though still not an All Star) till their 29/30 year...


Kareem: 30/15/4 on 55% shooting
Jokic:  25/12/9 on 56% shooting

And the per 48...

Kareem: 34/17/5 on 55% shooting
Jokic:  35/17/12 on 56% shooting

Pretty damn close.  Jokic more efficient as a scorer, much better passer.  Kareem a much superior defender.  If you look at PER, Jokic outpaces him there, largely due to the assist factor.

But again, Kareem was the best player of his peer set from 16 till his mid 30s.  Jokic will never have 6 rings like Kareem and he won't rack up tons of countable stacks from being a useful player into his late 30s (i assume).  So I'm fine saying Jokic won't catch Kareem.  But I think it speaks to Jokic's otherwordly, almost underrated historical brilliance, that he's just as good at his peak right now (arguably better as an overall player) than Kareem was at his.

[MU82]

The man is averaging a triple double and could play for 10 more years. He's going to obliterate the triple double record and unlike Westbrook he'll do it while winning at a high level.

In his first 9 NBA seasons, Wilt averaged 39.6 points and 24.8 rebounds. Obviously, it was a vastly different era. Nobody questions that today's NBA players are better and more athletic by a factor of a bazillion ... but still, no other player in Chamberlain's era came within a mile of 40 ppg. In 1961-62, the year Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg, the second-leading scorer (Walt Bellamy) was at 31.6. The following season, when Wilt averaged 44.8, only one other player averaged more than 30. Wilt was Babe Ruth and Wayne Gretzky - far superior to others in his era.

Assists were not handed out as generously as they are now, and Chamberlain still had two seasons in which he averaged about 8 per game. And blocked shots weren't an official stat at all, but he had a lot of blocks. His defense altered opponents' game plans (as did Russell's and Kareem's, but not Jokic's). Chamberlain was an ironman, too. He played in almost every game, and he averaged 46 minutes over his career; one season, he averaged a ridiculous 48.5 minutes.

I love watching Jokic. He is an absolute freak precisely because he's not an athletic freak, and he is the perfect center for today's NBA.

I get the "But Wilt's era sucked" argument. But statistically, there is no argument that can be made to support Jokic as being better or more accomplished than Wilt was. Hell, Wilt - who often was regarded as a "loser" because he couldn't beat Russell - even has more titles than Jokic so far.

But as I said, I love watching Jokic, I hope he has many more years of great health, and I'll love revisiting this 5-10 years from now.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

No one has said he's already in the top 3. He's going to be.

[MU82]

No one has said he's already in the top 3. He's going to be.

OK, thanks. I see that now as I re-read your initial post. I look forward to similar discussions in a few years.

[Jockey]

Wilt. I think he may be better than Russell but you can't ignore the team success that Russell had. No way he catches Kareem.

It will be interesting to see. If Jokic plays at least 5 more years at his current level, it will be a conversation.

I have always rated Kareem as #1. I don't think anyone has ever had the success that he has had. He may be the greatest HS player ever. He may have been the greatest college player ever. He may have been the greatest NBA player ever.

I am close to the point of moving LBJ ahead of him. Jokic has a lot of work to do yet.