Religion is Doomed

[muwarrior69]

After five takes of this debate, I find much of the discussion interesting and I do hope that some of the esteemed faith leaders at Marquette are reading this. There are exceptional arguments on both sides of religion and many things I've heard for years.

As a person of faith, I admit I struggle with the literal concept of the Resurrection. The notion that Jesus died the awful death He did and then suddenly rose three days later, appearing only to a closed group of disciples, seems extremely far fetched. That's why I identify so much with St. Thomas. He's the patron saint of due diligence.

What I believe as a Catholic Christian is that the Resurrection is a metaphor for the oneness we attain with God on our own death. That's a concept that's hard to communicate in any generation, especially 2000 years ago. A metaphysical Resurrection becomes a "real" one because it's much easier to tell and far more convincing. We gain oneness with God because we accept the challenges God puts before us and handle them in a way consistent with the teachings of Jesus.

For those of you who don't believe, I get that too! One of the most compelling conversations with my own father was a couple years before he died when we were travelling together. He was a CCD teacher and a champion of our faith and I finally had the courage to ask, "do you ever have trouble believing?" His answer was shocking: "of course I do." But he went on to explain the universe is too perfect to believe there is no God. He noted that God may not be what we think God is or should be, but we'll find out soon enough!

Good answer for an engineer!

I admire those whose faith is so strong they "know." Our own Cardinal George in Chicago, when he announced he was dying of bladder cancer, said he was "excited about the fact that he's about to meet God." I truly wish that I could feel the way the Cardinal did. But my own public views notwithstanding, I don't have THAT level of faith. Maybe I'll get there someday. In the meantime, you do the best you can and hope for growth as a person.

Yes, Thomas was exactly like you, until he placed his hands on the wounds of Jesus. And Jesus said to him more blessed are they who have not seen and believe. Yes, Thomas lost his faith that day because now he knew.

We are not so fortunate and I appreciate your struggle as I struggle too. I'm being honest here unlike the good Cardinal I don't know, but I believe and that is all Jesus expects from us.

[rocket surgeon]

Yes, Thomas was exactly like you, until he placed his hands on the wounds of Jesus. And Jesus said to him more blessed are they who have not seen and believe. Yes, Thomas lost his faith that day because now he knew.

We are not so fortunate and I appreciate your struggle as I struggle too. I'm being honest here unlike the good Cardinal I don't know, but I believe and that is all Jesus expects from us.

  between you and doggie-this is what scoop is all about!  thank you!

[muwarrior69]

I'm claiming that Jesus was a regular ole human who died like every every other human either did or will do. Claiming that he was the Son of God and therefore special in that manner is your theory. Burden of proof is yours.

It is not a theory, it is a proclamation.

[Hards Alumni]

It is not a theory, it is a proclamation.

Oh, okay then.

[Uncle Rico]

I'd still take Jesus in straight sets in a tennis match

[pbiflyer]

If the resurrection is real, Jesus died on a Friday and came back on Sunday. This means he basically sacrificed a weekend for our sins.

[Uncle Rico]

If the resurrection is real, Jesus died on a Friday and came back on Sunday. This means he basically sacrificed a weekend for our sins.

Guess he didn't believe "Saturday is for the boys"

[4everwarriors]

Didant ya say ya played golf at da Bog wit 'im on Saturday, hey?

[The Sultan]

It is not a theory, it is a proclamation.

Look, I am glad that you are comfortable that your faith allows you to taken the written word in the Bible as absolute truth.  I view Jesus' teachings as incredibly important and insightful, but also more metaphorically.

[Uncle Rico]

Didant ya say ya played golf at da Bog wit 'im on Saturday, hey?

Jesus cheats at golf, so he's out of my foursome

[tower912]

The last straw for me was when he walked on the pond in order to play his shot rather than take a penalty drop after hitting his previous shot in the water.

[Coleman]

...and Paul and the others actually saw Christ come back to life.

Actually, Paul didn't

[Coleman]

After five takes of this debate, I find much of the discussion interesting and I do hope that some of the esteemed faith leaders at Marquette are reading this. There are exceptional arguments on both sides of religion and many things I've heard for years.

As a person of faith, I admit I struggle with the literal concept of the Resurrection. The notion that Jesus died the awful death He did and then suddenly rose three days later, appearing only to a closed group of disciples, seems extremely far fetched. That's why I identify so much with St. Thomas. He's the patron saint of due diligence.

What I believe as a Catholic Christian is that the Resurrection is a metaphor for the oneness we attain with God on our own death. That's a concept that's hard to communicate in any generation, especially 2000 years ago. A metaphysical Resurrection becomes a "real" one because it's much easier to tell and far more convincing. We gain oneness with God because we accept the challenges God puts before us and handle them in a way consistent with the teachings of Jesus.

For those of you who don't believe, I get that too! One of the most compelling conversations with my own father was a couple years before he died when we were travelling together. He was a CCD teacher and a champion of our faith and I finally had the courage to ask, "do you ever have trouble believing?" His answer was shocking: "of course I do." But he went on to explain the universe is too perfect to believe there is no God. He noted that God may not be what we think God is or should be, but we'll find out soon enough!

Good answer for an engineer!

I admire those whose faith is so strong they "know." Our own Cardinal George in Chicago, when he announced he was dying of bladder cancer, said he was "excited about the fact that he's about to meet God." I truly wish that I could feel the way the Cardinal did. But my own public views notwithstanding, I don't have THAT level of faith. Maybe I'll get there someday. In the meantime, you do the best you can and hope for growth as a person.

I feel very similar.

True faith should have some (a lot of?) doubt, IMO

My best friend from high school is a Jesuit and he says there are many days that he doesn't know if he believes that God exists. To me, this kind of humility is necessary for faith.

[Skatastrophy]

I feel very similar.

True faith should have some (a lot of?) doubt, IMO

My best friend from high school is a Jesuit and he says there are many days that he doesn't know if he believes that God exists. To me, this kind of humility is necessary for faith.

Yep. The best conversations I've had about this have been with pastors/priests.

The unassailable part of religious texts is that they are a compellation of short stories intended to provide a framework of morals/values. That framework is an efficient way to communicate culture through generations, to keep a people on the same page about right and wrong, even a world away.

As religion is entering its Fall/Winter in western nations, we don't have a new or better way to build community locally or communicate values globally. I think that's a big risk to the peoples of western nations, because something/someone will be able to move into that power vacuum and create division instead of bringing people together. I don't think religion is the answer, but I don't see what's next in a post-religious society.

[21Jumpstreet]

Actually, Paul didn't

Actually, we don't know any of it. As my wonderful, pious, Christian, mechanical engineer nephew tells me, "Uncle, I love you. I believe. It is the most wonderful feeling to believe." As my wonderful, scientific, former atheist current humans aren't the be all end all, electrical engineering student son tells me, "Religion makes me laugh, it's so hypocritical, I am ready and waiting for someone to ask me about Bible stories. Oh, and, yeah, I super loved my senior spiritual Kairos retreat at my Jesuit HS." I cherish the time speaking with both of them about it all.

It can be both, and all. As a former Catholic who is confirmed and bastard child of a 30+ year old annulled marriage with a godfather who was expelled from the church for having a consensual, adult, gay relationship, I can see both sides.

[lawdog77]

Actually, we don't know any of it. As my wonderful, pious, Christian, mechanical engineer nephew tells me, "Uncle, I love you. I believe. It is the most wonderful feeling to believe." As my wonderful, scientific, former atheist current humans aren't the be all end all, electrical engineering student tells me, "Religion makes me laugh, it's so hypocritical, I am ready and waiting for someone to ask me about Bible stories. Oh, and, yeah, I super loved my senior spiritual Kairos retreat at my Jesuit HS." I cherish the time speaking with both of them about it all.

It can be both, and all. As a former Catholic who is confirmed and bastard child of a 30+ year old annulled wedding with a godfather who was expelled from the church for having a consensual, adult, gay relationship, I can see both sides.

Agree, and that's why some say humans were given free will

[21Jumpstreet]

Agree, and that's why some say humans were given free will

Hah, I was going to reference free will, love talking to the Jehovah's that come to my door and listening to and reading Sam Harris discuss it, too.

[Coleman]

Actually, we don't know any of it. As my wonderful, pious, Christian, mechanical engineer nephew tells me, "Uncle, I love you. I believe. It is the most wonderful feeling to believe." As my wonderful, scientific, former atheist current humans aren't the be all end all, electrical engineering student son tells me, "Religion makes me laugh, it's so hypocritical, I am ready and waiting for someone to ask me about Bible stories. Oh, and, yeah, I super loved my senior spiritual Kairos retreat at my Jesuit HS." I cherish the time speaking with both of them about it all.

It can be both, and all. As a former Catholic who is confirmed and bastard child of a 30+ year old annulled marriage with a godfather who was expelled from the church for having a consensual, adult, gay relationship, I can see both sides.

I don't disagree but my point was that even by his own accounts, Paul did not become a follower of Jesus until well after the resurrection.

[21Jumpstreet]

I don't disagree but my point was that even by his own accounts, Paul did not become a follower of Jesus until well after the resurrection.

Totally understand, I just responded to you as the last the in back and forth of who definitively knows what.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Paul and Jesus: How the Apostle Transformed Christianity https://a.co/d/i85S51O

This is a good read on how Paul shaped Christianity.   (Not for the better, IMO).  He also heavily influenced the Gospels, which I didn't know.  So even the teachings of Jesus were filtered through Paul and his followers' lens.

[Hards Alumni]

Paul and Jesus: How the Apostle Transformed Christianity https://a.co/d/i85S51O

This is a good read on how Paul shaped Christianity.   (Not for the better, IMO).  He also heavily influenced the Gospels, which I didn't know.  So even the teachings of Jesus were filtered through Paul and his followers' lens.

broken link

[pbiflyer]

broken link

God works in mysterious ways.

[pbiflyer]

Thousands of years of people not actually rising from the dead after three days.

Ah hem:

A worm has been revived after 46,000 years in the Siberian permafrost

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/28/world/worm-resurrected-frozen-siberian-permafrost-intl-scli-scn/index.html

[The Sultan]

Ah hem:

A worm has been revived after 46,000 years in the Siberian permafrost

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/28/world/worm-resurrected-frozen-siberian-permafrost-intl-scli-scn/index.html

I just found a new messiah.

[tower912]

46,001 years ago, the worm was a woman nagging her boyfriend, the sorcerer, about whether he would still love her if she was a worm.