Adios AA

[WarriorFan]

My view is that many of the large state schools, the Ivies, and a few other schools really like AA just as they like the legacies.  It makes teaching easier because the students aren't as demanding.  It's really difficult to teach a room full of brilliant students.  Most professors are lazy, and their incentives (i.e. $$) come from research in STEM or "publish or perish" in the humanities so they could give a toss about teaching.  More dumb students makes them happy because they can focus on what brings the $$. 

Now, those same schools are all out talking to the insurance companies, trying to buy the red line data so they can do the same thing a different way. 

Most schools are also biased towards a percentage who can pay full price because they also need people to pay the bills.

I still believe there are a handful of universities out there that have the aim of educating people, but the majority have lost the plot. 

[The Sultan]

My view is that many of the large state schools, the Ivies, and a few other schools really like AA just as they like the legacies.  It makes teaching easier because the students aren't as demanding.  It's really difficult to teach a room full of brilliant students.  Most professors are lazy, and their incentives (i.e. $$) come from research in STEM or "publish or perish" in the humanities so they could give a toss about teaching.  More dumb students makes them happy because they can focus on what brings the $$. 

Now, those same schools are all out talking to the insurance companies, trying to buy the red line data so they can do the same thing a different way. 

Most schools are also biased towards a percentage who can pay full price because they also need people to pay the bills.

I still believe there are a handful of universities out there that have the aim of educating people, but the majority have lost the plot. 

So your theory is that the highly selective Ivies and their ilk, and the large state schools, really don't want the best students? So the fact that pretty much everyone accepted has high academic achievement is really just a ruse?

Congrats on having the dumbest take in the topic. It was a high bar, but you managed to reach it. I especially like the casual racism of the "well getting minorities enrolled is a way to dumb down the students."

[Pakuni]

My view is that many of the large state schools, the Ivies, and a few other schools really like AA just as they like the legacies.  It makes teaching easier because the students aren't as demanding.  It's really difficult to teach a room full of brilliant students.  Most professors are lazy, and their incentives (i.e. $$) come from research in STEM or "publish or perish" in the humanities so they could give a toss about teaching.  More dumb students makes them happy because they can focus on what brings the $$. 

Now, those same schools are all out talking to the insurance companies, trying to buy the red line data so they can do the same thing a different way. 

Most schools are also biased towards a percentage who can pay full price because they also need people to pay the bills.

I still believe there are a handful of universities out there that have the aim of educating people, but the majority have lost the plot.

In summary: Colleges like AA because students who benefit are less intelligent and less demanding.
Saying the quiet part out loud.

[dgies9156]

The dgies RAP is a formula for an endless cycle of low educational attainment and poverty among the lower classes.

Brother Muggs:

Thank you!

Brother Pakuni:

That's a rather condescending and possibly racist comment. Are you suggesting that the only way that protected class individuals can compete with non-protected class individuals is if we change the rules?

If it we make it easier for people that we think might be inferior? Good God, that's the same underlying view that we have been trying to eradicate for 70 or so years!

I get that the Dgies RAP program makes it harder to "take a chance" on someone. But our laws speak loudly and tell us we shouldn't discriminate on race.

Society has evolved dramatically since Brown vs. Board in 1954. I get concerns about ensuring every body has a fair shot. But as I said previously, giving folks a fair shot does not mean set-asides. It means providing the impetus to expand the pool! That's the direction we need to go as a society.

Oh and I still don't believe in set-asides for legacies!

[lawdog77]

In summary: Colleges like AA because students who benefit are less intelligent and less demanding.
Saying the quiet part out loud.

Shut up and study?

[4everwarriors]

If y'all were honest, you'd want your airline pilot, heart surgeon, attorney, etc. to be one of the best and and brightest. You also wouldn't want your kids to be passed over for a lesser candidate who checks the right box. Oh, for thee, but not for me, aina?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

If y'all were honest, you'd want your airline pilot, heart surgeon, attorney, etc. to be one of the best and and brightest. You also wouldn't want your kids to be passed over for a lesser candidate who checks the right box. Oh, for thee, but not not for me, aina?

Shut up and drill, aina?

[Uncle Rico]

Shut up and drill, aina?

Thank you.  I agree with this analysis

[MUBurrow]

I normally hate breaking things down to narrative, but this is just another one of those things where anyone who can speak to first hand experience with it supports it, and everyone else just bitches from the sideline.*  I am yet to meet a white peer who thought they were unjustly impacted by AA and with whom I would ever really want to spend time.  Anyone who in the last 25 years has attended institutions that employed AA policies can plainly see why individuals admitted under AA were worthy and absolutely enhanced the campus experience compared to just another middle to high achieving white kid, despite lower objective metrics.  Of course there will always be outliers, but broadly, the societal benefit of admitting AA candidates vs just another white kid from the suburbs is pretty plain - even to any white kid from the suburbs who is worth a damn anyway.

* for the perspective of Justice Thomas. His experiences and perspective shouldn't be invalidated.  That being said, his perspective also shouldn't be dispositive on an issue that impacts so many people. And the manner in which he has continued to take advantage of AA benefits implicitly throughout his rise to the Supreme Court adds important context to his position.

[MUBurrow]

If y'all were honest, you'd want your airline pilot, heart surgeon, attorney, etc. to be one of the best and and brightest. You also wouldn't want your kids to be passed over for a lesser candidate who checks the right box. Oh, for thee, but not not for me, aina?

This is just it - we are talking about admission to the education that MAKES a person an airline pilot, heart surgeon, or attorney.  You are assuming that the skill of the person already "is what it is" when they graduate high school.  That is plainly bullshit.  For my money, an 18 year old kid is closer to unformed clay than an actualized professional in whose hands I would place my life.  In that context, I'd much rather take my chances with the 20-years-later version of the African American kid who grew up on the south side and got a 26 on the ACT despite much tougher odds than just another white kid from Naperville who got a 32.

[The Sultan]

Right. We are talking about the best and brightest...in high school.

Not some high stakes profession.

[Hards Alumni]

This is just it - we are talking about admission to the education that MAKES a person an airline pilot, heart surgeon, or attorney.  You are assuming that the skill of the person already "is what it is" when they graduate high school.  That is plainly bullcrap.  For my money, an 18 year old kid is closer to unformed clay than an actualized professional in whose hands I would place my life.  In that context, I'd much rather take my chances with the 20-years-later version of the African American kid who grew up on the south side and got a 26 on the ACT despite much tougher odds than just another white kid from Naperville who got a 32.

Nailed it.

[Uncle Rico]

This is just it - we are talking about admission to the education that MAKES a person an airline pilot, heart surgeon, or attorney.  You are assuming that the skill of the person already "is what it is" when they graduate high school.  That is plainly bullcrap.  For my money, an 18 year old kid is closer to unformed clay than an actualized professional in whose hands I would place my life.  In that context, I'd much rather take my chances with the 20-years-later version of the African American kid who grew up on the south side and got a 26 on the ACT despite much tougher odds than just another white kid from Naperville who got a 32.

Suburban kids have it to easy.  Part of the pussificati0n of America, aina? 

Something about cracked sidewalks, eh?

[wadesworld]

Right. We are talking about the best and brightest...in high school.

Not some high stakes profession.

But that doesn't put the fear of God in well off old white men.  The world has been so hard on those people.

[jesmu84]

Anyone know the impetus and financial backing of the groups who brought the lawsuits to the SC?

[Jay Bee]

Anyone know the impetus and financial backing of the groups who brought the lawsuits to the SC?

Asians were upset

[Jay Bee]

For my money, an 18 year old kid is closer to unformed clay than an actualized professional in whose hands I would place my life. 

Surely you're in favor of increasing the minimum voting age, yes?

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

This is just it - we are talking about admission to the education that MAKES a person an airline pilot, heart surgeon, or attorney.  You are assuming that the skill of the person already "is what it is" when they graduate high school.  That is plainly bullcrap.  For my money, an 18 year old kid is closer to unformed clay than an actualized professional in whose hands I would place my life.  In that context, I'd much rather take my chances with the 20-years-later version of the African American kid who grew up on the south side and got a 26 on the ACT despite much tougher odds than just another white kid from Naperville who got a 32.

This is the correct response. No brilliant high schooler, no matter how brilliant they are, is going to be said heart surgeon.l straight out of high school. Hell, how many people change majors in college these days?

Allow kids from marginalized groups the opportunity and access to higher education so they have the tools to become doctors, etc. but instead we just see them as cannon fodder.

[MUBurrow]

Surely you're in favor of increasing the minimum voting age, yes?

No because we have decided that despite being "unformed clay" at age 18 for purposes of being airline pilots, heart surgeons, or attorneys until they receive significant training, we have decided that they are at a sufficient level to vote, die for their country, and be punished as adults in the criminal justice system.  As a society, we have decided that they have a sufficient mental capacity to vote on the future of the country they are inheriting, but not to cut open my chest and perform surgery on my heart. I think that's an okay line to draw.

[Uncle Rico]

No because we have decided that despite being "unformed clay" at age 18 for purposes of being airline pilots, heart surgeons, or attorneys until they receive significant training, we have decided that they are at a sufficient level to vote, die for their country, and be punished as adults in the criminal justice system.  As a society, we have decided that they have a sufficient mental capacity to vote on the future of the country they are inheriting, but not to cut open my chest and perform surgery on my heart. I think that's an okay line to draw.

It's a straw man argument. 

Truth is, it's a movement that will gain a lot of steam moving forward, raising the voting age.

Making voting harder and discriminatory  is the goal of one political party.

[Pakuni]

Supreme Court yesterday: Don't discriminate!

Supreme Court today: Discriminate as you please!

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Supreme Court yesterday: Don't discriminate!

Supreme Court today: Discriminate as you please!

There are zero checks and balances on the Supreme Court right now.

This is what the Republican Party wanted, block the Garland confirmation based on zero merit and let it unravel from there.

[forgetful]

Devils advocate, Kushner was way over his head politically and looked like a clown from 2016 onward, but he went to a really good HS, graduated from Harvard with honors, and got a JD/MBA from NYU and was more than a little successful taking over after his dad went to jail.  No doubt his dad's fat check drove his admission into Harvard, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a bumbling idiot. 

Also, playing Devils Advocate. 90% of students who graduated the same year as Kushner from Harvard also graduated with honors, so it just means he was above the 90th percentile in his class. That typically would not be sufficient to get one into a JD/MBA program at NYU. His JD/MBA was also likely a result of his family connections.

And as someone else already mentioned, his real estate prowess was not one to write home about.

But I agree, none of the above suggests at all he's a bumbling idiot. I remind students all the time, that just to finish their degrees at a high quality institution places one smarter than 90% of the worlds population. But Kushner and most of his ilk (wealthy families) benefit immeasurably because of their connections.

An anecdotal story. A student I had once, got into our university solely based on family connections. Ended up finishing with a 1.8 GPA, didn't get kicked out, because of family connections. When I had them as a Senior and they squeaked by with a C- in my class I asked them what they planned to do with their life. They said law school (going to a top 10 program). I indicated their metrics don't align with said goal, they said metrics don't apply to their family.

They graduated from said top 10 law school last year. Last I looked on LinkedIn, they got immediately hired by a major firm with significant connections to their families business.

[Skatastrophy]

It's a straw man argument. 

Truth is, it's a movement that will gain a lot of steam moving forward, raising the voting age.

Making voting harder and discriminatory  is the goal of one political party.

That's the only way forward for them. There is no way they'll win the popular vote going forward with their continued attacks on things that young people are largely for. 2004 was truly the last win for them, they're absolutely going to have to try to change the rules.

They've been masks off with christofascism, and kids aren't into it.

The voting age should be the age at which it is legal to work and be taxed. No taxation without representation.

[Pakuni]

The Supreme Court has agreed to take on a case concerning whether people convicted of domestic violence can own guns.
What could go wrong?