Adios AA

[Pakuni]

Weak.  Take the L, cheeks.

Pig emoji. Clown emoji.
/reaches for key to chastity device.

[SoCalEagle]

If only merit in the classroom should count for college admissions, then ask yourself the following question: Why are preferences of any kind still allowable?:

1. Geographic preferences (you may be from a preferred region of the country)
2. Legacy preferences (big boost at many schools)
3. Athletic preferences (you can shoot a round ball through a hoop - you're in)
4. Special talent preferences (you excel at art, dance, or the violin)
5. Wealth preferences (yes, with enough money, you can literally buy your way into a university)

If you honestly feel that racial preferences should eliminated (no doubt that's a legitimate position to take), then how can you turn a blind eye to the other preferences that are still allowable?  I say now that racial preferences in college admissions has been eliminated, then all other preferences should be eliminated and we should let the chips fall where they may (Digies, love your lottery example above).  In fact, if we eliminate all preferences and admit kids to college based solely on academic merit, then maybe we can let schools do what they're best at - educating kids. 

Just for kicks, I would eliminate legacy preferences immediately.  Imagine the kid applying to an Ivy who has to rely SOLELY on his performance in the classroom for admission to Mom's/Dad's alma mater?  Next, I would eliminate athletic preferences (this would be the most fun).  Can you imagine the next 7'2" Kentucky recruit or the next star running back seeking admission at USC having to rely SOLELY on his performance in the classroom?  Laughable, right?  Sorry Johnny, I know you can bench four hundred pounds and run a 4.3 forty, but that skinny 5'6" kid with no athletic ability is better in the classroom than you.  That's just the way it is since we eliminated preferences.   

[Dr. Blackheart]

They're countries in a part of the world frequently referred to as the "Middle East," though that's a bit of a misnomer in the case of Afghanistan.
You should know this stuff.

I am quoting the source you posted.  Afghanistan and Iran are, according to your posted source, some of the most "diverse" countries in the world (along with Uganda).  Much more than the US or any western country other than Belgium. 

Do you read the sources you post?

[Pakuni]

I am quoting the source you posted.  Afghanistan and Iran are, according to your posted source, some of the most "diverse" countries in the world (along with Uganda).  Much more than the US or any western country other than Belgium. 

Do you read the sources you post?

I take it you disagree.
Why?

You should probably read this while you're at it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16/a-revealing-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-ethnically-diverse-countries/

[Dr. Blackheart]

I take it you disagree.
Why?


You should probably read this while you're at it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16/a-revealing-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-ethnically-diverse-countries/

[MUBurrow]

I would ask who bought off Alito and Thomas on this one, but they probably did this one for free.

Thomas has wanted to end AA for a very long time.  It also isn't an overstatement to say that his career is a direct byproduct of AA - he was admitted to Yale law under AA, and Bush I appointed him to SCOTUS to replace Thurgood Marshall after only 18 months as an appellate judge.  And yet to hear him talk about the mental and social impact AA had on him, he feels very victimized by it.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Burka, please.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Pig emoji. Clown emoji.
/reaches for key to chastity device.

💦💦💦

[rocket surgeon]

Do you ever have a thought for yourself? Everything is a regurgitation of whatever was on Fox in the last hour, with never a shred of examination. You vomit out the daily outrage like the well-trained monkey that you are.

  this seems to be your canned response to everything that opposes(very rightly so) your msnbc/cnn/the view generated opinions. 

    0 for 10 (reeko very disappointed)

i guess AA didn't work for you at MU after all

please sit this one out

[Hards Alumni]

Simple answer:

1) Set objective qualifications.
2) Take everyone who meets the qualifications by college and assign them a number.
3) Put every number is a drum.
4) Draw out 120% of the spaces in a class in a school.
5) Admit based on whose numbers were drawn first.

It's fair, objective and gives everyone an equal chance.

This absolutely ignores a ton of issues.  If everything prior to step 1 is equal then I'm fine with your criteria... but it ain't.

[Hards Alumni]

  this seems to be your canned response to everything that opposes(very rightly so) your msnbc/cnn/the view generated opinions. 

    0 for 10 (reeko very disappointed)

i guess AA didn't work for you at MU after all

please sit this one out

You should probably sit the entire forum out, just sayin'.

[The Sultan]

574 recognized tribes per the Dept of Interior.

But yes, I believe they are all the same.  🙄

A tribe is a legal term, not an ethnic one.

[Hards Alumni]

100%. I would have no problem if there was a sliding scale based on economics or schools attended. But why should Asians from the same prep school be discriminated vs white kids? And why should white kids under those same circumstances be discriminated against vs black kids?

Actually a good take.  Someone else mentioned it here but AA should be based on socio-economic status rather than race.

One is measurable, the other is a social construct that creates 'otherism'.

[The Sultan]

Question ..

Google tells me there are ~3200 colleges in the US public + private.   AA mostly impacted schools that were moderately+ selective and .. full, right?   That leaves thousands of other options, with tons of high quality schools to choose from.

So many of the cases that are stated surround schools like Harvard, MIT, Ivies, and formerly UCLA, and Berkeley.    These now turned away kids .. aren't they just going to another pretty solid school?

Doesn't the demise of AA only impact a tiny sliver of academically solid kids who have dozens of other choices?

In the end it really will have very little impact.  IMO the racial make up of highly selective universities will be no different than it is now.

[The Sultan]

Actually a good take.  Someone else mentioned it here but AA should be based on socio-economic status rather than race.

One is measurable, the other is a social construct that creates 'otherism'.

Which is exactly what many schools have been moving toward for years.

[rocket surgeon]

This absolutely ignores a ton of issues.  If everything prior to step 1 is equal then I'm fine with your criteria... but it ain't.

how do you propose we deal with "a ton of issues" in order to get to the point of establishing a set of criteria to whittle long lists of candidates down to a finite number of positions.  we can't list every scenario under which every person from every background, ethnicity, religion, etc etc comes from.  i very much dislike the, "i don't test well" excuses

   interviews, grades, resumes, essays, references

problem is people are flawed

[Uncle Rico]

how do you propose we deal with "a ton of issues" in order to get to the point of establishing a set of criteria to whittle long lists of candidates down to a finite number of positions.  we can't list every scenario under which every person from every background, ethnicity, religion, etc etc comes from.  i very much dislike the, "i don't test well" excuses

   interviews, grades, resumes, essays, references

problem is people are flawed

Yeah, I have to question the people that let you into Marquette

[The Sultan]

First off, the vast majority of schools (including Marquette) are accepting the majority of the people who apply, and want most of them to show up. So it really isn't going to impact them at all.

Second, at highly selective institutions, grades aren't a differentiating factor. Everyone admitted has great grades. Everyone is really smart and really accomplished academically.  The problem is that interviews, resumes, essays and references all are subjective.  What if the last spot is between two people both 4.0, honors level students.  One was the captain of the football team, volunteered at a homeless shelter and has zero financial need so he didn't work.  The other wasn't involved in many extra curriculars because he was too busy working two jobs to support his family.  Who do you take?

The idea that admissions can only be done on merit just doesn't reflect reality.  When people hire for a job, do you only look at experience and nothing else?  Candidate A has 12 years experience and Candidate B has 10 - therefore we have to hire the former?  Of course not.

[Hards Alumni]

how do you propose we deal with "a ton of issues" in order to get to the point of establishing a set of criteria to whittle long lists of candidates down to a finite number of positions.  we can't list every scenario under which every person from every background, ethnicity, religion, etc etc comes from.  i very much dislike the, "i don't test well" excuses

   interviews, grades, resumes, essays, references

problem is people are flawed

Are you asking how I would fix education or how I would determine socio-economic status?  This isn't an easy fix, but it is fixable.

[dgies9156]

Thank you all for your responses to the Dgies Random Admissions Program ("RAP"). Here's some additional thoughts to chew on, both positive and negative:

1) Positive: It eliminates legacy admissions. OK, university advancement may suffer but a legacy who meets certain academic and social criteria has the same chance as anyone else. Period. It's a numbers game, silly!

2) Positive: The RAP program is color-blind. You may end up with a class full of Asians or you may have a diverse class. It'll change every year based on the luck of the draw.

3) Positive: RAP envisions one set-aside -- for athletes! We want our Warriors to be as strong as ever!

4) Negative: No character admissions. We may have someone who is of incredible character and is just a really "special" human being who would otherwise be admitted because an officer read a recommendation letter. Recommendation letters under RAP are out. RAP is a numbers game based on a pre-determined criteria.

5) Negative: Economics. RAP treats everyone the same. It ignores the question of how much student aid, scholarships and loans a student needs to enter an elite university. Thus, if a school's resources are limited, there may be more than average fall-out.

6) Neutral: A class' mix may not be one the Professors want to teach. Waaaahhh, stop your whining.

Ultimately, if society wants a more diverse mix of students, the solution is to increase the pool of qualified applicants. That comes from a systematic improvement in educational quality, holding teachers accountable and demanding more from urban educational systems. Affirmative Action was supposed to be a bridge from where we were -- systematic Jim Crow -- to a day when society was color blind. That bridge seems to never end and that's part of what the Supreme Court was saying.

Full Disclosure: I went to Marquette  . No affirmative action program, special admissions systems or other preferences affected my ability to gain admission to the world's greatest university. To the extent that one class of students had an "edge" in gaining admission to Marquette at that time, so what? Plus, I met Ms. Dgies there and we live happily ever after.

[The Sultan]

Thank you all for your responses to the Dgies Random Admissions Program ("RAP"). Here's some additional thoughts to chew on, both positive and negative:

1) Positive: It eliminates legacy admissions. OK, university advancement may suffer but a legacy who meets certain academic and social criteria has the same chance as anyone else. Period. It's a numbers game, silly!

2) Positive: The RAP program is color-blind. You may end up with a class full of Asians or you may have a diverse class. It'll change every year based on the luck of the draw.

3) Positive: RAP envisions one set-aside -- for athletes! We want our Warriors to be as strong as ever!

4) Negative: No character admissions. We may have someone who is of incredible character and is just a really "special" human being who would otherwise be admitted because an officer read a recommendation letter. Recommendation letters under RAP are out. RAP is a numbers game based on a pre-determined criteria.

5) Negative: Economics. RAP treats everyone the same. It ignores the question of how much student aid, scholarships and loans a student needs to enter an elite university. Thus, if a school's resources are limited, there may be more than average fall-out.

6) Neutral: A class' mix may not be one the Professors want to teach. Waaaahhh, stop your whining.

Ultimately, if society wants a more diverse mix of students, the solution is to increase the pool of qualified applicants. That comes from a systematic improvement in educational quality, holding teachers accountable and demanding more from urban educational systems. Affirmative Action was supposed to be a bridge from where we were -- systematic Jim Crow -- to a day when society was color blind. That bridge seems to never end and that's part of what the Supreme Court was saying.

Full Disclosure: I went to Marquette  . No affirmative action program, special admissions systems or other preferences affected my ability to gain admission to the world's greatest university. To the extent that one class of students had an "edge" in gaining admission to Marquette at that time, so what? Plus, I met Ms. Dgies there and we live happily ever after.

Again, don't quit your day job.

[MuggsyB]

In the end it really will have very little impact.  IMO the racial make up of highly selective universities will be no different than it is now.

Exactly.  It won't have much impact at all (if any) at the elite schools.   Possibly in athletics but I doubt it.  And regardless of race, the kids who don't get in and wind up at a non Ivy will be fine.   In light of our current issues in the country this one is infinitesimal. 

[MuggsyB]

Again, don't quit your day job.

Stop attacking brother dgies.  All opinions should be valued. 

[The Sultan]

Stop attacking brother dgies.  All opinions should be valued. 

No. It's a really bad idea.

[Pakuni]

The dgies RAP is a formula for an endless cycle of low educational attainment and poverty among the lower classes.