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Author Topic: EV's  (Read 13223 times)

tower912

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EV's
« on: February 21, 2023, 10:42:25 AM »
Since the investing thread has gone big on EV discussion, I thought I would create a thread to specifically discuss EV's.     
I do not have one, I am contemplating one with my next purchase, but I have concerns.    I hope some current (hah) owners can help me out by sharing their experiences.
 
For those of you living in northern climes, how big of a range hit do you see in the winter?    I keep seeing articles indicating you may only have 1/3 of your normal range when it is frigid out.     Do your experiences reflect this?

Are you able to use your EV for long trips?    I can see having one as a second car in the family, one for tooling around town,  but I am trying to picture driving 300 miles to Milwaukee in an EV.   Or 900 miles to see my daughter in Baltimore.   Whereas I got 420 miles on each of the tanks of gas involved in my trip last week, it took me 10 minutes to refuel and go to the bathroom.    I can't help but think I would have added an hour each way if I had an EV.

I also read about non-functioning charging stations and lines to use one that is functioning.   Have you had that experience?

How are they as cars?    Fun to drive?    Handle the same?     

I remember a few years ago, one of the early adopters was sure that EV's would be taking over the market by now.    For all the hype, they haven't.     Yet.     Do you think the infrastructure will be developed in time to meet the 2035 goals of the states and the companies?
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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Galway Eagle

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Re: EV's
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2023, 10:47:57 AM »
Used Turo to rent a Tesla this past weekend 80% charged was 180miles took 45min to charge up. Drove nicely but my wife & I agreed it would be a disaster for a road trip car.
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BrewCity83

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Re: EV's
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2023, 10:49:04 AM »
I just heard a story on the radio yesterday of a couple who drove from Michigan to Florida for a vacation in their EV.  It took them 4 days, one way.  They had to make 12 stops to re-charge, each stop ranging from 20 to 55 minutes.  Sorry I have no link to verify.

Not my idea of an efficient way to travel long distances.
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MU82

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Re: EV's
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2023, 10:54:05 AM »
My daughter and SIL have had a Tesla Model X for 2 years now. If you ever get to the point where you want to be in touch with them, PM me and I’ll make it happen.

I’ve ridden in it numerous times but I’m no expert. And Charlotte isn’t exactly a cold climate (though it is coldish in the winter and my SIL says the range is a little lower then).

What I can tell you is that when they moved here from Seattle, they drove it across the country. Had some trepidation before the trip but ended up saying that charging was never a problem. Tesla makes it relatively easy because it has such a huge network of chargers, and its navigation system includes info on chargers along the route. I can’t speak to non-Tesla EVs.

Just a few days ago I bought a hybrid because it met my needs better than currently available EVs. I’m hoping that when it’s time to replace my wife’s car in 3-4 years, there will be better selection, availability and price.

Thanks for starting this thread, tower. Much better here than in the investing thread.
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tower912

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Re: EV's
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2023, 10:56:52 AM »
Much like the age/poll thread, this is an opportunity to have constructive discussions.      I think that when the lots start filling up again, that a hybrid is my likely purchase as well.    But I am open minded and wish to hear about other's experiences. 
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: EV's
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2023, 10:58:37 AM »
Just a few days ago I bought a hybrid because it met my needs better than currently available EVs. I’m hoping that when it’s time to replace my wife’s car in 3-4 years, there will be better selection, availability and price.

I too am looking at a hybrid for my next car. The price delta between hybrids and ICE autos has shrunk considerably, so economically it makes a ton of sense.
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JWags85

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Re: EV's
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2023, 11:05:23 AM »
Are you able to use your EV for long trips?    I can see having one as a second car in the family, one for tooling around town,  but I am trying to picture driving 300 miles to Milwaukee in an EV.   Or 900 miles to see my daughter in Baltimore.   Whereas I got 420 miles on each of the tanks of gas involved in my trip last week, it took me 10 minutes to refuel and go to the bathroom.    I can't help but think I would have added an hour each way if I had an EV.

So range is such a popular/controversial topic when it comes to it.  My father, for example, thinks EVs are very cool from a tech perspective but can't process them as a primary vehicle because of range concerns and coming from a family who drove long distances all the time.

Meanwhile, I'm fairly opposite.  When I used to live in Chicago in my 20s, I drove fairly regularly to visit friends in Columbus and Cleveland.  Thats around 325-350 miles.  I couldnt see myself driving any farther than that hardly ever, and even that I started flying because 11-12 hours of driving for even a long weekend just cut time too short.  And I drove more than most of my millennial friends.  My wife never drove longer than 4 hours one way in her life before meeting me.

Lucid is supposedly has a 400-420 mile range.  Supposedly up to 500 on some models.  Unless you're somehow who LOVES road trips, that feels like plenty if battery tech gets that to an industry standard level.

MU82

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Re: EV's
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2023, 11:06:17 AM »
I too am looking at a hybrid for my next car. The price delta between hybrids and ICE autos has shrunk considerably, so economically it makes a ton of sense.

Yessir. And with some models, the performance of the hybrid makes it preferable to the ICE version. Plus, the equipment included even in a base-model hybrid is often similar to its non-base ICE equivalent.
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tower912

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Re: EV's
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2023, 11:09:26 AM »
JWags, thanks.   I get that underlying philosophy.    I still drive Michigan to Baltimore, Michigan to Dayton, Michigan to Milwaukee, 150 miles to Northern Michigan for golf trips.   

And I do follow the advancements in battery tech.     By 2035, I expect 500 miles to be the norm.    Again, though, for those who have an EV in the upper Midwest, what kind of range hit do you see in cold weather?
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

🏀

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Re: EV's
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2023, 11:20:28 AM »
tower

One of my good friends/coworkers has a Tesla. He mostly stays in Wisconsin, but never leaves the Great Lakes in the car.

He does complain about the cold weather drop off, he thinks it’s close to 15% through sustained weather below freezing.

Charging isn’t much of an issue, he generally stops at Woodmans which all have new charging stations. He can grocery shop or browse the liquor departments. He says 30-40 minutes to fully charge, but he also thinks it’s barely longer than a Kwik Trip stop which makes me think he spends an alarming amount of time in Kwik Trips.

His regret are road trips. He avoids them now. Sand Valley, the UP, Forest Dunes or French Lick aren’t an issue, but that’s about his radius. He wishes he had another vehicle for road trips.  He wouldn’t drive us to Des Moines when we discussed a trip because of his uncertainty.

I think getting the range to 400 miles+ will be the big push point for most Americans.


jesmu84

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Re: EV's
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2023, 11:52:33 AM »
I'm going to respond to things here in a bit. But I need a keyboard/computer to type everything out.

Intro: I've had a Kia EV6 since 2/2022. I have a charger at home. My daily commute is 30-60 miles. I live in Indianapolis. I've taken 1 trip to Elkhart Lake, 2 trips to Milwaukee, 2 trips to Nashville, 1 trip to Cincinnati, 3 trips to Chicago, 4 trips to central IL.

I've said prior, but before purchasing my Kia EV6, I test drove Tesla 3/Y, Mach E, Ioniq 5. I did HOURS of research on each vehicle.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 01:19:46 PM by jesmu84 »

jficke13

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Re: EV's
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2023, 12:21:17 PM »
I have a Camry Hybrid. It goes from about 48 mpg in summer to 40 in winter.

What I think would be a really effective option for me would be a plug in hybrid that is EV first, ICE after battery runs out. The Rav4-Prime seems to fit the bill. Obviously a very short range of 40-50 miles-ish, but that would handle my daily commute and probably 99% of all driving but for trips to rural courthouses/roadtrips (which either the spouse's vehicle or the ICE could handle).

Of course last time a Toyota dealer called to beg to buy my car they told me they aren't even taking orders on Rav4-Primes due to demand, so it's all a moot point unless Toyota magically ramps up production big time.

jesmu84

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Re: EV's
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2023, 01:15:38 PM »
Since the investing thread has gone big on EV discussion, I thought I would create a thread to specifically discuss EV's.     
I do not have one, I am contemplating one with my next purchase, but I have concerns.    I hope some current (hah) owners can help me out by sharing their experiences.
 
For those of you living in northern climes, how big of a range hit do you see in the winter?    I keep seeing articles indicating you may only have 1/3 of your normal range when it is frigid out.     Do your experiences reflect this?

-For my Kia EV6, warm weather in-city: 300mi; warm weather highway: 250mi; cold weather city: 250mi; cold weather highway: 200mi
-Range gets MURDERED when EVs under 3 conditions: cold temperature, towing, high speed. It's a DRAMATIC difference between 60mph and 70mph in terms of range loss. 70mph vs 80mph is even worse.


Are you able to use your EV for long trips?    I can see having one as a second car in the family, one for tooling around town,  but I am trying to picture driving 300 miles to Milwaukee in an EV.   Or 900 miles to see my daughter in Baltimore.   Whereas I got 420 miles on each of the tanks of gas involved in my trip last week, it took me 10 minutes to refuel and go to the bathroom.    I can't help but think I would have added an hour each way if I had an EV.

-See my listed trips above. Most of my roadtrips have been summer and fall. A couple winter. Generally speaking, I don't have any issues with roadtripping the car, but it will (as of today's tech) always taking longer than an ICE vehicle. For me to get to Milwaukee, for example, would take 4.5 hours in an ICE. For my EV, i have to stop twice (I could potentially drive slower and stop once). It takes my vehicle 15-20 minutes to charge 10-80% (longer above 80%). So, it's closer to 5+ hours in my EV.

That said, I have found roadtripping in an EV MUCH more relaxing. Why? In my ICE, I would drive straight through 4.5 hours. In my EV, I'm forced to stop every 1.5-2 hours. I get outta the car, use the restroom, get something to eat/drink. It's way less stress/strain.

The big variables on charging are which car you own. A Bolt vs Rivian vs Tesla vs Kia/Hyundai vs Ford, etc. They don't all have the same tech/components so charging time/speed can vary significantly, which in turn would effect your road trip time/experience.


I also read about non-functioning charging stations and lines to use one that is functioning.   Have you had that experience?

-Most non-Tesla charging stations have 4-8 chargers. If they're all used when you get there, you're gonna be waiting. It's not great.

Charging infrastructure across the country (especially midwest) is in its infancy. Need to accept that or figure out another way to get around on roadtrips.


How are they as cars?    Fun to drive?    Handle the same?

-This is very dependent on your price range. Luxury cars are going to handle like their ICE counterparts. Generally, all EV are "fun" in a straight line as there's nothing quite like the instant torque/power of an electric motor. They aren't all super thrilling in cornering, etc. Handling is going to be dependent, like I said, on how much you're willing to spend.   

I remember a few years ago, one of the early adopters was sure that EV's would be taking over the market by now.    For all the hype, they haven't.     Yet.     Do you think the infrastructure will be developed in time to meet the 2035 goals of the states and the companies?

-IMO, no

jesmu84

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Re: EV's
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2023, 01:17:11 PM »
I just heard a story on the radio yesterday of a couple who drove from Michigan to Florida for a vacation in their EV.  It took them 4 days, one way.  They had to make 12 stops to re-charge, each stop ranging from 20 to 55 minutes.  Sorry I have no link to verify.

Not my idea of an efficient way to travel long distances.

This is so dumb. Not you, BC83. But I've read this article (or similar) and seen it linked multiple place.

The problem with this story is the driver/person didn't understand (through no fault of their own) the difference between Level 1/2/3 charging. They were stopping at non-high speed chargers.

Not to mention, that math doesn't make much sense. Google says Detroit to Orlando is 17 hours driving. Add 12 stops of 60 minutes and you're at 29 hours. So how was it 4 days?

My current nav/charging planner says it would take 20hours total for the trip from Detroit to Orlando, including 16 hrs of driving and 13 charges totalling 3.5 hours (7-22 min each).
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 01:27:58 PM by jesmu84 »

jesmu84

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Re: EV's
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2023, 01:21:12 PM »
IMO, PHEV is the perfect car for most right now. They can charge at home and do 90% of their driving under EV mode as commutes/errands/whatever. Then use gas for the other 10% of driving/roadtrips.

The problem with PHEV is it adds SIGNIFICANT complexity/engineering to the car-making equation

If you don't have the capability to have your own personal charging station (work/home/apartment/whatever), I wouldn't consider ANY plug-in vehicle of any type.

JWags85

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Re: EV's
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2023, 01:28:14 PM »
That said, I have found roadtripping in an EV MUCH more relaxing. Why? In my ICE, I would drive straight through 4.5 hours. In my EV, I'm forced to stop every 1.5-2 hours. I get outta the car, use the restroom, get something to eat/drink. It's way less stress/strain.

This is funny in a different strokes for different folks way.  As I mentioned in my post, I got tired of longer road trips a decade ago.  But when I did, I had NO interest in stopping.  I used to drive 5.5 hours to school in Ohio and I was able to do so on a full tank so it became speed runs for me.  Same as when used to drive MKE to Traverse City for an internship (partially due to the nothingness between Grand Rapids and Cadillac.  Relaxing for me on a road trip was when it was over.  Maybe why I don't do them anymore.

I once drove back from school for a break with a friend from Lincolnshire.  We stopped 3 times from SW Ohio to the Half Day Road exit.  It was hell  ;D

jesmu84

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Re: EV's
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2023, 01:30:39 PM »
More, re: range.

I don't see the current car/range lineup as the problem in itself. The problem with range/roadtripping is charge speed and charging infrastructure.

There needs to be MANY more high speed (350kw) chargers on the road. In turn, cars need to be able to charge MUCH faster. If it's 10 minutes to charge 10-90%, thats perfect. Unfortunately, that's not the case right now.

jesmu84

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Re: EV's
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2023, 01:32:21 PM »
This is funny in a different strokes for different folks way.  As I mentioned in my post, I got tired of longer road trips a decade ago.  But when I did, I had NO interest in stopping.  I used to drive 5.5 hours to school in Ohio and I was able to do so on a full tank so it became speed runs for me.  Same as when used to drive MKE to Traverse City for an internship (partially due to the nothingness between Grand Rapids and Cadillac.  Relaxing for me on a road trip was when it was over.  Maybe why I don't do them anymore.

I once drove back from school for a break with a friend from Lincolnshire.  We stopped 3 times from SW Ohio to the Half Day Road exit.  It was hell  ;D

For sure. If I still had an ICE, I'd still try to do all my roadtrips in 0 stops.

However, because I'm forced to stop, I have found it's so much less stressful. Never expected that.

tower912

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Re: EV's
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2023, 01:33:01 PM »
Same as when used to drive MKE to Traverse City for an internship (partially due to the nothingness between Grand Rapids and Cadillac. 


Now wait just a doggone minute.  There are a lot of.... uhhhh, some.... errrrr, a couple ..... damn.   There is Tullymore if you go 10 miles off the highway.  And don't forget Big Rapids.   

Nevermind.   You aren't wrong.
 ;D
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

LloydsLegs

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Re: EV's
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2023, 01:47:39 PM »
Not exactly on point, but my Volvo S90 hybrid has a promoted range of 22-24 miles.  I live in Chicago area.  7-8 months of the year, I can do my 20 mile round trip commute in a single charge.  Cold months, I can make it one way.  A couple
Of summers I’ve made it from Memorial Day to Labor Day on a single tank of gas (we use the other car for trips to WI etc).

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: EV's
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2023, 01:48:03 PM »
For sure. If I still had an ICE, I'd still try to do all my roadtrips in 0 stops.

However, because I'm forced to stop, I have found it's so much less stressful. Never expected that.

*What is the cost per charging unit to install?
*Do you pay for the charge?  Or does the owner of the charging station
*What is the environmental impact from using more electricity from coal and NG power plants?  From mining the rare metals used in battery production?

(Sorry for co-oping the role of question boy.)

These are real questions, no snark.

jesmu84

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Re: EV's
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2023, 01:53:48 PM »
*What is the cost per charging unit to install?
*Do you pay for the charge?  Or does the owner of the charging station
*What is the environmental impact from using more electricity from coal and NG power plants?  From mining the rare metals used in battery production?

(Sorry for co-oping the role of question boy.)

These are real questions, no snark.

I assume you're asking about charging stations like Electrify America and EV-Go? I honestly don't know the answers to those questions.

When I charge at a public high-speed charger, I pay for the cost. Similar to a gas station. Because of state law, sometimes you pay for the amount of electricity you get or sometimes you pay for minutes at the charger.

There are definitely articles out there on environmental impact of EVs

Edit: articles from a quick google search (didn't read all of them)

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/02/climate/electric-vehicles-environment.html

https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-definitely-better-climate-gas-powered-cars

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/lifetime-emissions-of-evs-are-lower-than-gasoline-cars-experts-say.html

https://www.pcmag.com/opinions/electric-vs-gas-cars-what-are-the-hidden-environmental-costs-of-evs

https://www.reuters.com/business/cop/is-your-electric-car-eco-friendly-you-thought-2021-11-10/

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/24/us-electric-vehicles-lithium-consequences-research

https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/environmental-impact-of-evs-vs-gas-cars

Some charger costs here: https://propertymanagerinsider.com/how-much-do-commercial-dc-fast-chargers-cost-2/
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 01:59:03 PM by jesmu84 »

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: EV's
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2023, 02:35:34 PM »
However, because I'm forced to stop, I have found it's so much less stressful. Never expected that.

I always found this true riding motorcycles long distance. After about 150 miles stopping for gas fills and a stretch etc. is relaxing although riding a MC is more taxing than a car.

JWags85

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Re: EV's
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2023, 03:08:38 PM »
Now wait just a doggone minute.  There are a lot of.... uhhhh, some.... errrrr, a couple ..... damn.   There is Tullymore if you go 10 miles off the highway.  And don't forget Big Rapids.   

Nevermind.   You aren't wrong.
 ;D

At the time, I used to drive till I was basically down to a gallon.  Partially cause I was I was reckless as a 21 year old and partially cause of misguided mental financial reasons.

My car at the time used to ding with 32 miles left.  Which was basically a bit over a gallon.  So bout 20 min north of GR, I get the ding.  No worries, get off at the next exit.  5...10...20 miles pass.  I start to sweat as its about 930PM on a Sunday night and its pitch black.  Finally see an exit with a gas station sign.  Get off, of course, its not highway adjacent.  Drive about 5 min east and glide into a decrepit Mobil station on fumes.  Fun times on 131.

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: EV's
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2023, 03:15:22 PM »
Here's the EV industry magazine.  You can search for articles.
The annual trade show is out your way in Novi, MI on September 12-14.  I'll be walking.

Charged
The Electric Vehicle Magazine
https://chargedevs.com/