MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: tower912 on February 21, 2023, 10:42:25 AM
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Since the investing thread has gone big on EV discussion, I thought I would create a thread to specifically discuss EV's.
I do not have one, I am contemplating one with my next purchase, but I have concerns. I hope some current (hah) owners can help me out by sharing their experiences.
For those of you living in northern climes, how big of a range hit do you see in the winter? I keep seeing articles indicating you may only have 1/3 of your normal range when it is frigid out. Do your experiences reflect this?
Are you able to use your EV for long trips? I can see having one as a second car in the family, one for tooling around town, but I am trying to picture driving 300 miles to Milwaukee in an EV. Or 900 miles to see my daughter in Baltimore. Whereas I got 420 miles on each of the tanks of gas involved in my trip last week, it took me 10 minutes to refuel and go to the bathroom. I can't help but think I would have added an hour each way if I had an EV.
I also read about non-functioning charging stations and lines to use one that is functioning. Have you had that experience?
How are they as cars? Fun to drive? Handle the same?
I remember a few years ago, one of the early adopters was sure that EV's would be taking over the market by now. For all the hype, they haven't. Yet. Do you think the infrastructure will be developed in time to meet the 2035 goals of the states and the companies?
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Used Turo to rent a Tesla this past weekend 80% charged was 180miles took 45min to charge up. Drove nicely but my wife & I agreed it would be a disaster for a road trip car.
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I just heard a story on the radio yesterday of a couple who drove from Michigan to Florida for a vacation in their EV. It took them 4 days, one way. They had to make 12 stops to re-charge, each stop ranging from 20 to 55 minutes. Sorry I have no link to verify.
Not my idea of an efficient way to travel long distances.
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My daughter and SIL have had a Tesla Model X for 2 years now. If you ever get to the point where you want to be in touch with them, PM me and I’ll make it happen.
I’ve ridden in it numerous times but I’m no expert. And Charlotte isn’t exactly a cold climate (though it is coldish in the winter and my SIL says the range is a little lower then).
What I can tell you is that when they moved here from Seattle, they drove it across the country. Had some trepidation before the trip but ended up saying that charging was never a problem. Tesla makes it relatively easy because it has such a huge network of chargers, and its navigation system includes info on chargers along the route. I can’t speak to non-Tesla EVs.
Just a few days ago I bought a hybrid because it met my needs better than currently available EVs. I’m hoping that when it’s time to replace my wife’s car in 3-4 years, there will be better selection, availability and price.
Thanks for starting this thread, tower. Much better here than in the investing thread.
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Much like the age/poll thread, this is an opportunity to have constructive discussions. I think that when the lots start filling up again, that a hybrid is my likely purchase as well. But I am open minded and wish to hear about other's experiences.
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Just a few days ago I bought a hybrid because it met my needs better than currently available EVs. I’m hoping that when it’s time to replace my wife’s car in 3-4 years, there will be better selection, availability and price.
I too am looking at a hybrid for my next car. The price delta between hybrids and ICE autos has shrunk considerably, so economically it makes a ton of sense.
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Are you able to use your EV for long trips? I can see having one as a second car in the family, one for tooling around town, but I am trying to picture driving 300 miles to Milwaukee in an EV. Or 900 miles to see my daughter in Baltimore. Whereas I got 420 miles on each of the tanks of gas involved in my trip last week, it took me 10 minutes to refuel and go to the bathroom. I can't help but think I would have added an hour each way if I had an EV.
So range is such a popular/controversial topic when it comes to it. My father, for example, thinks EVs are very cool from a tech perspective but can't process them as a primary vehicle because of range concerns and coming from a family who drove long distances all the time.
Meanwhile, I'm fairly opposite. When I used to live in Chicago in my 20s, I drove fairly regularly to visit friends in Columbus and Cleveland. Thats around 325-350 miles. I couldnt see myself driving any farther than that hardly ever, and even that I started flying because 11-12 hours of driving for even a long weekend just cut time too short. And I drove more than most of my millennial friends. My wife never drove longer than 4 hours one way in her life before meeting me.
Lucid is supposedly has a 400-420 mile range. Supposedly up to 500 on some models. Unless you're somehow who LOVES road trips, that feels like plenty if battery tech gets that to an industry standard level.
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I too am looking at a hybrid for my next car. The price delta between hybrids and ICE autos has shrunk considerably, so economically it makes a ton of sense.
Yessir. And with some models, the performance of the hybrid makes it preferable to the ICE version. Plus, the equipment included even in a base-model hybrid is often similar to its non-base ICE equivalent.
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JWags, thanks. I get that underlying philosophy. I still drive Michigan to Baltimore, Michigan to Dayton, Michigan to Milwaukee, 150 miles to Northern Michigan for golf trips.
And I do follow the advancements in battery tech. By 2035, I expect 500 miles to be the norm. Again, though, for those who have an EV in the upper Midwest, what kind of range hit do you see in cold weather?
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tower
One of my good friends/coworkers has a Tesla. He mostly stays in Wisconsin, but never leaves the Great Lakes in the car.
He does complain about the cold weather drop off, he thinks it’s close to 15% through sustained weather below freezing.
Charging isn’t much of an issue, he generally stops at Woodmans which all have new charging stations. He can grocery shop or browse the liquor departments. He says 30-40 minutes to fully charge, but he also thinks it’s barely longer than a Kwik Trip stop which makes me think he spends an alarming amount of time in Kwik Trips.
His regret are road trips. He avoids them now. Sand Valley, the UP, Forest Dunes or French Lick aren’t an issue, but that’s about his radius. He wishes he had another vehicle for road trips. He wouldn’t drive us to Des Moines when we discussed a trip because of his uncertainty.
I think getting the range to 400 miles+ will be the big push point for most Americans.
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I'm going to respond to things here in a bit. But I need a keyboard/computer to type everything out.
Intro: I've had a Kia EV6 since 2/2022. I have a charger at home. My daily commute is 30-60 miles. I live in Indianapolis. I've taken 1 trip to Elkhart Lake, 2 trips to Milwaukee, 2 trips to Nashville, 1 trip to Cincinnati, 3 trips to Chicago, 4 trips to central IL.
I've said prior, but before purchasing my Kia EV6, I test drove Tesla 3/Y, Mach E, Ioniq 5. I did HOURS of research on each vehicle.
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I have a Camry Hybrid. It goes from about 48 mpg in summer to 40 in winter.
What I think would be a really effective option for me would be a plug in hybrid that is EV first, ICE after battery runs out. The Rav4-Prime seems to fit the bill. Obviously a very short range of 40-50 miles-ish, but that would handle my daily commute and probably 99% of all driving but for trips to rural courthouses/roadtrips (which either the spouse's vehicle or the ICE could handle).
Of course last time a Toyota dealer called to beg to buy my car they told me they aren't even taking orders on Rav4-Primes due to demand, so it's all a moot point unless Toyota magically ramps up production big time.
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Since the investing thread has gone big on EV discussion, I thought I would create a thread to specifically discuss EV's.
I do not have one, I am contemplating one with my next purchase, but I have concerns. I hope some current (hah) owners can help me out by sharing their experiences.
For those of you living in northern climes, how big of a range hit do you see in the winter? I keep seeing articles indicating you may only have 1/3 of your normal range when it is frigid out. Do your experiences reflect this?
-For my Kia EV6, warm weather in-city: 300mi; warm weather highway: 250mi; cold weather city: 250mi; cold weather highway: 200mi
-Range gets MURDERED when EVs under 3 conditions: cold temperature, towing, high speed. It's a DRAMATIC difference between 60mph and 70mph in terms of range loss. 70mph vs 80mph is even worse.
Are you able to use your EV for long trips? I can see having one as a second car in the family, one for tooling around town, but I am trying to picture driving 300 miles to Milwaukee in an EV. Or 900 miles to see my daughter in Baltimore. Whereas I got 420 miles on each of the tanks of gas involved in my trip last week, it took me 10 minutes to refuel and go to the bathroom. I can't help but think I would have added an hour each way if I had an EV.
-See my listed trips above. Most of my roadtrips have been summer and fall. A couple winter. Generally speaking, I don't have any issues with roadtripping the car, but it will (as of today's tech) always taking longer than an ICE vehicle. For me to get to Milwaukee, for example, would take 4.5 hours in an ICE. For my EV, i have to stop twice (I could potentially drive slower and stop once). It takes my vehicle 15-20 minutes to charge 10-80% (longer above 80%). So, it's closer to 5+ hours in my EV.
That said, I have found roadtripping in an EV MUCH more relaxing. Why? In my ICE, I would drive straight through 4.5 hours. In my EV, I'm forced to stop every 1.5-2 hours. I get outta the car, use the restroom, get something to eat/drink. It's way less stress/strain.
The big variables on charging are which car you own. A Bolt vs Rivian vs Tesla vs Kia/Hyundai vs Ford, etc. They don't all have the same tech/components so charging time/speed can vary significantly, which in turn would effect your road trip time/experience.
I also read about non-functioning charging stations and lines to use one that is functioning. Have you had that experience?
-Most non-Tesla charging stations have 4-8 chargers. If they're all used when you get there, you're gonna be waiting. It's not great.
Charging infrastructure across the country (especially midwest) is in its infancy. Need to accept that or figure out another way to get around on roadtrips.
How are they as cars? Fun to drive? Handle the same?
-This is very dependent on your price range. Luxury cars are going to handle like their ICE counterparts. Generally, all EV are "fun" in a straight line as there's nothing quite like the instant torque/power of an electric motor. They aren't all super thrilling in cornering, etc. Handling is going to be dependent, like I said, on how much you're willing to spend.
I remember a few years ago, one of the early adopters was sure that EV's would be taking over the market by now. For all the hype, they haven't. Yet. Do you think the infrastructure will be developed in time to meet the 2035 goals of the states and the companies?
-IMO, no
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I just heard a story on the radio yesterday of a couple who drove from Michigan to Florida for a vacation in their EV. It took them 4 days, one way. They had to make 12 stops to re-charge, each stop ranging from 20 to 55 minutes. Sorry I have no link to verify.
Not my idea of an efficient way to travel long distances.
This is so dumb. Not you, BC83. But I've read this article (or similar) and seen it linked multiple place.
The problem with this story is the driver/person didn't understand (through no fault of their own) the difference between Level 1/2/3 charging. They were stopping at non-high speed chargers.
Not to mention, that math doesn't make much sense. Google says Detroit to Orlando is 17 hours driving. Add 12 stops of 60 minutes and you're at 29 hours. So how was it 4 days?
My current nav/charging planner says it would take 20hours total for the trip from Detroit to Orlando, including 16 hrs of driving and 13 charges totalling 3.5 hours (7-22 min each).
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IMO, PHEV is the perfect car for most right now. They can charge at home and do 90% of their driving under EV mode as commutes/errands/whatever. Then use gas for the other 10% of driving/roadtrips.
The problem with PHEV is it adds SIGNIFICANT complexity/engineering to the car-making equation
If you don't have the capability to have your own personal charging station (work/home/apartment/whatever), I wouldn't consider ANY plug-in vehicle of any type.
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That said, I have found roadtripping in an EV MUCH more relaxing. Why? In my ICE, I would drive straight through 4.5 hours. In my EV, I'm forced to stop every 1.5-2 hours. I get outta the car, use the restroom, get something to eat/drink. It's way less stress/strain.
This is funny in a different strokes for different folks way. As I mentioned in my post, I got tired of longer road trips a decade ago. But when I did, I had NO interest in stopping. I used to drive 5.5 hours to school in Ohio and I was able to do so on a full tank so it became speed runs for me. Same as when used to drive MKE to Traverse City for an internship (partially due to the nothingness between Grand Rapids and Cadillac. Relaxing for me on a road trip was when it was over. Maybe why I don't do them anymore.
I once drove back from school for a break with a friend from Lincolnshire. We stopped 3 times from SW Ohio to the Half Day Road exit. It was hell ;D
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More, re: range.
I don't see the current car/range lineup as the problem in itself. The problem with range/roadtripping is charge speed and charging infrastructure.
There needs to be MANY more high speed (350kw) chargers on the road. In turn, cars need to be able to charge MUCH faster. If it's 10 minutes to charge 10-90%, thats perfect. Unfortunately, that's not the case right now.
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This is funny in a different strokes for different folks way. As I mentioned in my post, I got tired of longer road trips a decade ago. But when I did, I had NO interest in stopping. I used to drive 5.5 hours to school in Ohio and I was able to do so on a full tank so it became speed runs for me. Same as when used to drive MKE to Traverse City for an internship (partially due to the nothingness between Grand Rapids and Cadillac. Relaxing for me on a road trip was when it was over. Maybe why I don't do them anymore.
I once drove back from school for a break with a friend from Lincolnshire. We stopped 3 times from SW Ohio to the Half Day Road exit. It was hell ;D
For sure. If I still had an ICE, I'd still try to do all my roadtrips in 0 stops.
However, because I'm forced to stop, I have found it's so much less stressful. Never expected that.
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Same as when used to drive MKE to Traverse City for an internship (partially due to the nothingness between Grand Rapids and Cadillac.
Now wait just a doggone minute. There are a lot of.... uhhhh, some.... errrrr, a couple ..... damn. There is Tullymore if you go 10 miles off the highway. And don't forget Big Rapids.
Nevermind. You aren't wrong.
;D
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Not exactly on point, but my Volvo S90 hybrid has a promoted range of 22-24 miles. I live in Chicago area. 7-8 months of the year, I can do my 20 mile round trip commute in a single charge. Cold months, I can make it one way. A couple
Of summers I’ve made it from Memorial Day to Labor Day on a single tank of gas (we use the other car for trips to WI etc).
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For sure. If I still had an ICE, I'd still try to do all my roadtrips in 0 stops.
However, because I'm forced to stop, I have found it's so much less stressful. Never expected that.
*What is the cost per charging unit to install?
*Do you pay for the charge? Or does the owner of the charging station
*What is the environmental impact from using more electricity from coal and NG power plants? From mining the rare metals used in battery production?
(Sorry for co-oping the role of question boy.)
These are real questions, no snark.
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*What is the cost per charging unit to install?
*Do you pay for the charge? Or does the owner of the charging station
*What is the environmental impact from using more electricity from coal and NG power plants? From mining the rare metals used in battery production?
(Sorry for co-oping the role of question boy.)
These are real questions, no snark.
I assume you're asking about charging stations like Electrify America and EV-Go? I honestly don't know the answers to those questions.
When I charge at a public high-speed charger, I pay for the cost. Similar to a gas station. Because of state law, sometimes you pay for the amount of electricity you get or sometimes you pay for minutes at the charger.
There are definitely articles out there on environmental impact of EVs
Edit: articles from a quick google search (didn't read all of them)
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/02/climate/electric-vehicles-environment.html
https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-definitely-better-climate-gas-powered-cars
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/lifetime-emissions-of-evs-are-lower-than-gasoline-cars-experts-say.html
https://www.pcmag.com/opinions/electric-vs-gas-cars-what-are-the-hidden-environmental-costs-of-evs
https://www.reuters.com/business/cop/is-your-electric-car-eco-friendly-you-thought-2021-11-10/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/24/us-electric-vehicles-lithium-consequences-research
https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/environmental-impact-of-evs-vs-gas-cars
Some charger costs here: https://propertymanagerinsider.com/how-much-do-commercial-dc-fast-chargers-cost-2/
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However, because I'm forced to stop, I have found it's so much less stressful. Never expected that.
I always found this true riding motorcycles long distance. After about 150 miles stopping for gas fills and a stretch etc. is relaxing although riding a MC is more taxing than a car.
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Now wait just a doggone minute. There are a lot of.... uhhhh, some.... errrrr, a couple ..... damn. There is Tullymore if you go 10 miles off the highway. And don't forget Big Rapids.
Nevermind. You aren't wrong.
;D
At the time, I used to drive till I was basically down to a gallon. Partially cause I was I was reckless as a 21 year old and partially cause of misguided mental financial reasons.
My car at the time used to ding with 32 miles left. Which was basically a bit over a gallon. So bout 20 min north of GR, I get the ding. No worries, get off at the next exit. 5...10...20 miles pass. I start to sweat as its about 930PM on a Sunday night and its pitch black. Finally see an exit with a gas station sign. Get off, of course, its not highway adjacent. Drive about 5 min east and glide into a decrepit Mobil station on fumes. Fun times on 131.
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Here's the EV industry magazine. You can search for articles.
The annual trade show is out your way in Novi, MI on September 12-14. I'll be walking.
Charged
The Electric Vehicle Magazine
https://chargedevs.com/
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I think all EV charging outlets must be set up to collect a federal/state road tax.
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I think all EV charging outlets must be set up to collect a federal/state road tax.
Genuinely curious, Why?
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Genuinely curious, Why?
Just spitballin here but maybe to pay for the roads they're using.
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Sales tax at the chargers.
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I think all EV charging outlets must be set up to collect a federal/state road tax.
Majority of states (maybe all?) have increased registration fees for hybrids/PHEVs/BEVs to make up for lack of gas taxes
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Just spitballin here but maybe to pay for the roads they're using.
That’s all well and good, but I do think we should be making a push towards EVs. So if that incentive is not having to pay tax towards charging then I’m fine with it.
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That’s all well and good, but I do think we should be making a push towards EVs. So if that incentive is not having to pay tax towards charging then I’m fine with it.
It's not a tax toward charging. It's a tax that supports road maintenance
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That’s all well and good, but I do think we should be making a push towards EVs. So if that incentive is not having to pay tax towards charging then I’m fine with it.
EVs are very heavy compared to similarly sized ICE vehicles. I'm not saying the move to EVs is wrong, but they will stress roads faster than ICE vehicles. There needs to be a charging tax or higher registration fees to fund more frequent road repairs that EV vehicles will cause.
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That’s all well and good, but I do think we should be making a push towards EVs. So if that incentive is not having to pay tax towards charging then I’m fine with it.
No. Pay your fair share.
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I have 2 EV's and no gas powered cars anymore. Every year drive one of them from Colorado to Minnesota and back and really have no issues with charging. I also have little to no issues with cold weather. I can answer any questions people have around them.
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https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-lucid-air-grand-touring-performance-yearlong-review-update-1-cold-weather-range-test/
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https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-lucid-air-grand-touring-performance-yearlong-review-update-1-cold-weather-range-test/
So much in this article is frustrating to me - as an owner of an EV who knows what I expect in different conditions. I have many clarifying questions for the driver.
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Not exactly on point, but my Volvo S90 hybrid has a promoted range of 22-24 miles. I live in Chicago area. 7-8 months of the year, I can do my 20 mile round trip commute in a single charge. Cold months, I can make it one way. A couple
Of summers I’ve made it from Memorial Day to Labor Day on a single tank of gas (we use the other car for trips to WI etc).
I have a Volvo XC60 Plug-In hybrid. We get 40 miles on a charge in regular weather. Below freezing it drops to 30ish. Love the car. Charges from a regular outlet. We fill the gas tank maybe once every 2 months. If we go regular hybrid mode we get up to 45 mph. To me it's been the perfect bridge car for our family. We can do our daily school drop offs and errands almost exclusively in electric.
Once my GMC ICE has an expensive repair, we'll be leaning towards the Polestar or Lyric (wifes family all work for GM).
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That’s all well and good, but I do think we should be making a push towards EVs. So if that incentive is not having to pay tax towards charging then I’m fine with it.
that's all well and good, but to be far, there needs to be a few(quite a few) things to be in order-
the ability of our grid to handle the increase in EVs-i do enjoy my electricity for other things as well. brown-outs are not acceptable unless they are occurring in the mayor's and governor's houses as well...buy stock in generac ;D ;D ;D
the ability to mine the necessary metals for batteries and then finding a reasonable means to destroy, recycle, dispose of old batteries
people are comfortable with the transition-price and feasibility
people do still like options-hybrids sound like they could produce a reasonable alternative and bridge between fully gas fueled and fully EV, to take away fully gas fueled vehicles however, would be very fuelish ;D ;D ;D
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Just rented a Tesla Y from Avis in Libertyville, IL. Was back to visit my son and attend some Marquette games. Needed the car for a day. My review:
Positives:
Jet like acceleration. The thing flies, literally. Going from 0 to 70 is bone-jarring, it happens so fast.
Smooth ride. The car is heavy due to the fact that it's a rolling battery. It runs well and the ride is really good.
Quiet. This speaks for itself. The car also was very comfortable and roomy.
Negatives:
Knowledge. Avis' rep in Libertyville knew as much about electric cars as I know about thermodynamics. Hint: Nothing. The amount of information that was just outright wrong about recharge and availability of fast charges in Central Lake County was amazing. This will improve with time.
Recharge. As others have said, it takes forever to recharge an electric vehicle. The charger across the lot from my hotel would take about nine hours to do the job (versus 15 minutes the folks at Avis said). It also had a charging limit of 45 minutes, which is something one has to look out for. I was able to find a Tesla supercharger site in Buffalo Grove (the Woodmans Market on Ill. 21). Avis wanted a 95 percent charge level on return. It took one hour and 40 minutes to recharge. I was at 35 percent charge at the time.
Resources. Anyone who thinks Electric cars are carbon neutral is nuts. I'm concerned about the amount of lithium and rare earth minerals being mined in environmentally sensitive areas to power electric cars. Not to mention the carbon emissions from the exponential increase in electrical generation it's going to take to power 150 million or more electric cars.
My conclusion is that they'd be good for an around-town car and for short trips, say from Libertyville to NMD on a Saturday. They work so long as you have a charger in your home and can sit it on the charger overnight. They truly don't work for long distance trips (put the car on a car carrier and fly). When I drove from Libertyville to South Florida, it took 19 hours of driving and probably overall about an hour for fueling. We probably took another two hours for lunch and biobreaks along the way (mostly lunch). Based on my experience, I'd add about six to nine hours for recharging.
We'll probably get there but I doubt it will be in my lifetime and I doubt it will be on a political schedule.
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Electric car batteries should be as compact and simple to change out as flashlight batteries. Furthermore, the car should come with 2 sets of batteries and an onboard charger. Thereby, one set of batteries can be in use and the ogher charging. That's when the car becomes useable, practical, a no brainer to purchase. Easy, peasy, aina?
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Electric car batteries should be as compact and simple to change out as flashlight batteries. Furthermore, the car should come with 2 sets of batteries and an onboard charger. Thereby, one set of batteries can be in use and the ogher charging. That's when the car becomes useable, practical, a no brainer to purchase. Easy, peasy, aina?
Obviously not an Electrical Engineer.
The person who develops what Brother 4Ever advocates will win a Nobel Prize and be richer than anyone on the planet.
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If you're gonna stand out, be outstanding, hey?
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Electric car batteries should be as compact and simple to change out as flashlight batteries. Furthermore, the car should come with 2 sets of batteries and an onboard charger. Thereby, one set of batteries can be in use and the ogher charging. That's when the car becomes useable, practical, a no brainer to purchase. Easy, peasy, aina?
Lol. Sure. Definitely want average folks handing high voltage equipment
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Just rented a Tesla Y from Avis in Libertyville, IL. Was back to visit my son and attend some Marquette games. Needed the car for a day. My review:
Positives:
Jet like acceleration. The thing flies, literally. Going from 0 to 70 is bone-jarring, it happens so fast.
Smooth ride. The car is heavy due to the fact that it's a rolling battery. It runs well and the ride is really good.
Quiet. This speaks for itself. The car also was very comfortable and roomy.
Negatives:
Knowledge. Avis' rep in Libertyville knew as much about electric cars as I know about thermodynamics. Hint: Nothing. The amount of information that was just outright wrong about recharge and availability of fast charges in Central Lake County was amazing. This will improve with time.
Recharge. As others have said, it takes forever to recharge an electric vehicle. The charger across the lot from my hotel would take about nine hours to do the job (versus 15 minutes the folks at Avis said). It also had a charging limit of 45 minutes, which is something one has to look out for. I was able to find a Tesla supercharger site in Buffalo Grove (the Woodmans Market on Ill. 21). Avis wanted a 95 percent charge level on return. It took one hour and 40 minutes to recharge. I was at 35 percent charge at the time.
Resources. Anyone who thinks Electric cars are carbon neutral is nuts. I'm concerned about the amount of lithium and rare earth minerals being mined in environmentally sensitive areas to power electric cars. Not to mention the carbon emissions from the exponential increase in electrical generation it's going to take to power 150 million or more electric cars.
My conclusion is that they'd be good for an around-town car and for short trips, say from Libertyville to NMD on a Saturday. They work so long as you have a charger in your home and can sit it on the charger overnight. They truly don't work for long distance trips (put the car on a car carrier and fly). When I drove from Libertyville to South Florida, it took 19 hours of driving and probably overall about an hour for fueling. We probably took another two hours for lunch and biobreaks along the way (mostly lunch). Based on my experience, I'd add about six to nine hours for recharging.
We'll probably get there but I doubt it will be in my lifetime and I doubt it will be on a political schedule.
1. I assume you're as concerned about the environmental consequences of fossil fuels.
2. Wrong on the charging duration
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Rare Earth minerals are not rare.
They are already working on batteries using with more common materials. I know of a company working on a battery using an aluminum alloy that contains some lithium. Companies are all working on quicker charging and holding charges longer.
As I've typed here before, we're at the Ford Model T stage of EV's (statement pulled straight from an EV manufacturer executive's mouth) and we're only seeing the initial offerings.
Each advancement will lead to the next advancement and so on.
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I agree with all of that, MFiC. The battery technology is going to advance rapidly. With it, the range will increase. And hopefully, the technology for building it.
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Lol. Sure. Definitely want average folks handing high voltage equipment
My old car had the battery in a side compartment in the truck. I replaced it fairly easily and I'm not a gearhead and it wasn't some dangerous high voltage endeavor. And that was just a standard old school car battery. Swappable batteries are the future and they will be handled by civilians, not sure why that is such an absurd thought, other than mocking the poster for previous claims.
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1. I assume you're as concerned about the environmental consequences of fossil fuels.
2. Wrong on the charging duration
1) Yes and I see where we are versus where we've been and am generally pleased.
2) Wrong. I sat there in my Tesla Y while the damn thing charged up to 98 percent. I'll admit it was a cold night in Chicago, but that's real world. It also was pretty new!
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We do it all the time with lawnmowers, snowblowers, drills, etc. When we had this converation 5-6 years ago, I said the future of EV's was a battery back that would be on a charger at the Shell/Marathon/BP/Speedway. Pop out your suitcase sized battery back, put it on the charger for the next guy, grab a charged one off of their rack, pay them $20 and go drive for another 250 miles. Technology has evolved in a different direction, so that prediction may not pan out.
Now I see the battery technology evolving to the point that 500 miles (in warm weather) is the norm. And recharge for another 500 miles is 30 minutes on a high speed charger. But that is 10-15 years out.
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We do it all the time with lawnmowers, snowblowers, drills, etc. When we had this converation 5-6 years ago, I said the future of EV's was a battery back that would be on a charger at the Shell/Marathon/BP/Speedway. Pop out your suitcase sized battery back, put it on the charger for the next guy, grab a charged one off of their rack, pay them $20 and go drive for another 250 miles. Technology has evolved in a different direction, so that prediction may not pan out.
Now I see the battery technology evolving to the point that 500 miles (in warm weather) is the norm. And recharge for another 500 miles is 30 minutes on a high speed charger. But that is 10-15 years out.
Long-term planning and investing in that technology 😬
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The environmental "cost" of resource extraction is subject to weird analytical biases. Don't have the materials at hand, but it was something like we extract 15 billion tons of fossil fuels/year, and the ramped up target for rare earth extraction is 150 million tons/year. Rare earth extraction is not a zero cost endeavor, but it's significantly lower cost than recurrent fossil fuel extraction.
Anyone who says the EV transition is going to be free of environmental impact is lying. But anyone who says it's equivalent to maintaining ICE use is also lying.
IMHO, the tradeoffs are, generally speaking, worth it.
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if this is the cost of transitioning to EV, then i want no part of it. if this going on with other aspects of our economical development and/or technological advancements, something needs to stop. does this mean i am throwing out my cell phone? let's be real and any reasonably thinking person knows what i mean here. if we are to continue our evolution of the EV, is it too much to ask that children aren't exploited as such?
https://chrissmith.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=410044
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Anyone go hybrid ? I could see myself using gas for longer trips and flipping over to electric for driving around the hood/running errands.
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We do it all the time with lawnmowers, snowblowers, drills, etc. When we had this converation 5-6 years ago, I said the future of EV's was a battery back that would be on a charger at the Shell/Marathon/BP/Speedway. Pop out your suitcase sized battery back, put it on the charger for the next guy, grab a charged one off of their rack, pay them $20 and go drive for another 250 miles. Technology has evolved in a different direction, so that prediction may not pan out.
Now I see the battery technology evolving to the point that 500 miles (in warm weather) is the norm. And recharge for another 500 miles is 30 minutes on a high speed charger. But that is 10-15 years out.
Brother Tower
The problem with portable batteries is that most electric cars are a passenger compartment wrapped around batteries with an electric motor. Unless battery technology evolves dramatically in the next decade, the chance that we're going to have anything more than incremental growth from today is modest. I'd like to think we're going to get there as the positives of driving a high-powered Tesla are substantial. I really liked the car. I just didn't like the slow recharge.
I'm hopeful but I think for the near term, I'll have at least one internal combustion engine powered automobile.
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Brother Dgies, I am not trying to turn this into a scoop argument. I want people to talk about their experience and about their needs. For me, I think the questions, range issues, cold issues, charging issues are still too much for me the trigger on this generation of EV's. I can definitely see a hybrid, however.
But I want guys to keep sharing. Without anger or vitriol. Because, eventually, EV's are going to be the norm.
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Infrastructure is drastically underfunded, so you want to fund it less?
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My old car had the battery in a side compartment in the truck. I replaced it fairly easily and I'm not a gearhead and it wasn't some dangerous high voltage endeavor. And that was just a standard old school car battery. Swappable batteries are the future and they will be handled by civilians, not sure why that is such an absurd thought, other than mocking the poster for previous claims.
I'm fairly certain there's a difference in the 12v battery you describe and the high voltage battery in EV currently.
I might be wrong though
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1) Yes and I see where we are versus where we've been and am generally pleased.
2) Wrong. I sat there in my Tesla Y while the damn thing charged up to 98 percent. I'll admit it was a cold night in Chicago, but that's real world. It also was pretty new!
1. Good
2. Still wrong on the duration of charging from Libertyville to South Florida. Right now, today, even despite cold temps in the Midwest, it would take me 3 hours of charging from Libertyville to Miami.
Teslas are actually fantastic road trippers with high speed charging, plug and go charging, battery preconditioning and numerous supercharger locations
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Anyone go hybrid ? I could see myself using gas for longer trips and flipping over to electric for driving around the hood/running errands.
PHEVs are good compromises and probably better for most people/the general public.
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EVs are currently a "new" technology. So early in their infancy that there are MANY pitfalls to owning/using one. Especially when it comes to road trips.
Unless you're the type to dive deeply into something, I would tell anyone to hold off on a purchase until more established.
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We do it all the time with lawnmowers, snowblowers, drills, etc. When we had this converation 5-6 years ago, I said the future of EV's was a battery back that would be on a charger at the Shell/Marathon/BP/Speedway. Pop out your suitcase sized battery back, put it on the charger for the next guy, grab a charged one off of their rack, pay them $20 and go drive for another 250 miles. Technology has evolved in a different direction, so that prediction may not pan out.
Now I see the battery technology evolving to the point that 500 miles (in warm weather) is the norm. And recharge for another 500 miles is 30 minutes on a high speed charger. But that is 10-15 years out.
IMO, the only way this happens is if batteries become standardized across all vehicles/manufacturers. But that's going to be nearly impossible. Especially with different sized vehicles with different sized batteries
Otherwise you're going to be relying on individual companies to build their own swapping infrastructure.
In either scenario, you're probably looking at a situation where you buy/lease the vehicle and have another buy/lease agreement on the battery.
Could happen. Very complex.
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I have an electric leaf blower. I love it. It works as good as gas, it's lighter and it's incredibly quiet for a leaf blower. The only negative is the charge only lasts 30 minutes which is enough to clean up after I finish mowing. I do need a backup battery.
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The Latest EV Battery Announcements and Investments
Feb. 24, 2023
A look into the billions of dollars being invested in new battery plants and expansions in recent years.
https://www.industryweek.com/leadership/media-gallery/21260159/the-latest-ev-battery-announcements-and-investments?utm_source=IY+IW+Daily+Headlines+-+Morning&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS230223197&o_eid=2702C8228856C0V&rdx.ident[pull]=omeda|2702C8228856C0V&oly_enc_id=2702C8228856C0V&id=21260159&slide=1
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I have an electric leaf blower. I love it. It works as good as gas, it's lighter and it's incredibly quiet for a leaf blower. The only negative is the charge only lasts 30 minutes which is enough to clean up after I finish mowing. I do need a backup battery.
I have an electric mower, blower, string trimmer and hedge trimmer. The only issue I have is that I went cheap on the back up battery for the mower so sometimes it runs out when I am maddeningly close to being complete. But I trim, clean up, and by the time that's done the battery is charged up enough.
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I have an electric mower, blower, string trimmer and hedge trimmer. The only issue I have is that I went cheap on the back up battery for the mower so sometimes it runs out when I am maddeningly close to being complete. But I trim, clean up, and by the time that's done the battery is charged up enough.
Cool story, comrade
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Cool story, comrade
Hey at least I have two gas guzzling automobiles to make up for it.
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Hey at least I have two gas guzzling automobiles to make up for it.
Thank you, patriot
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Anyone go hybrid ? I could see myself using gas for longer trips and flipping over to electric for driving around the hood/running errands.
See my post above. Hybrid great for commute and errands.
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Hey at least I have two gas guzzling automobiles to make up for it.
Electric oven and bbq?
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Electric oven and bbq?
No. Gas range and gas dryer.
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EVs are currently a "new" technology. So early in their infancy that there are MANY pitfalls to owning/using one. Especially when it comes to road trips.
Unless you're the type to dive deeply into something, I would tell anyone to hold off on a purchase until more established.
I bought a Betamax.
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The only issue I have is that people should have the free choice of which vehicle they prefer. I am not so sure that the ban on new ICE sales in CA is constitutional as that affects interstate commerce. I think the market should decide which will prevail. Like I said, I bought a Betamax.
I am 76 and more than likely not to buy a new or used vehicle, so this issue will not affect me. Looks like GM will be all EV very soon and as other manufacturers move in that direction will the move to EVs outpace our electric utilities ability to generate the power to meet the demand.
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[
I am 76 and more than likely not to buy a new or used vehicle
[/quote]
My father in law, may he rest in peace, entered into a 3 year lease when he was 90. Then a 2 year lease when he was 93. He gave up the keys when he turned 95 and passed when he was 99. Keep on trucking, muwarrior69, keep on trucking.
You are in my oldest brother's class at MU. His first car was a '66 Mustang. His last car, or so he says, is the Mach-E he picked up last year. Nice bracketing. He loves it.
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Brother Dgies, I am not trying to turn this into a scoop argument. I want people to talk about their experience and about their needs. For me, I think the questions, range issues, cold issues, charging issues are still too much for me the trigger on this generation of EV's. I can definitely see a hybrid, however.
But I want guys to keep sharing. Without anger or vitriol. Because, eventually, EV's are going to be the norm.
Brother Tower:
I don't mind an argument about EVs, as long as it's civil and debates the relative merits of both car types. As you point out, the range, weather and logistics concerns are severe issues for some. I'd add that in the very hot summers here, the issues are just as severe as extreme cold weather.
I'm not a physicist or an electrical engineer, so I can't address the theoretical possibilities in battery technology. I'm hoping though that in time, battery technology and recharge capability is such that we're more efficient and cleaner with EVs than we are with internal combustion engines. The pick-up on that Tesla I drove was off the charts and I know not a single gasoline-powered vehicle that can match it.
For you train buffs out there, the acceleration merits of electricity compared to gasoline or diesel is the reason why virtually all high-speed rail is electric. The performance difference between Amtrak's ACS-642, the old AM-7s or Acelas and the diesel powered GE P42s Amtrak operates now is nothing short of amazing
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No. Gas range and gas dryer.
gotta go induction. Way of the future
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gotta go induction. Way of the future
Real men grill all their food
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Brother Tower:
I don't mind an argument about EVs, as long as it's civil and debates the relative merits of both car types. As you point out, the range, weather and logistics concerns are severe issues for some. I'd add that in the very hot summers here, the issues are just as severe as extreme cold weather.
I'm not a physicist or an electrical engineer, so I can't address the theoretical possibilities in battery technology. I'm hoping though that in time, battery technology and recharge capability is such that we're more efficient and cleaner with EVs than we are with internal combustion engines. The pick-up on that Tesla I drove was off the charts and I know not a single gasoline-powered vehicle that can match it.
For you train buffs out there, the acceleration merits of electricity compared to gasoline or diesel is the reason why virtually all high-speed rail is electric. The performance difference between Amtrak's ACS-642, the old AM-7s or Acelas and the diesel powered GE P42s Amtrak operates now is nothing short of amazing
This is true today
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Indeed
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if this is the cost of transitioning to EV, then i want no part of it. if this going on with other aspects of our economical development and/or technological advancements, something needs to stop. does this mean i am throwing out my cell phone? let's be real and any reasonably thinking person knows what i mean here. if we are to continue our evolution of the EV, is it too much to ask that children aren't exploited as such?
https://chrissmith.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=410044
I hate to tell you this, but a lot of the things we all use on a daily basis are made using exploited labor.
Some mines in Africa are awful, but many more are not run this way.
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Ford to restart production of the Lightning truck on March 13.
https://seekingalpha.com/news/3943445-ford-set-to-restart-f-150-lightning-production-march-13?lctg=60ab95209838154d2d2b6636&mailingid=30719449&messageid=wall_street_breakfast&serial=30719449.30599&userid=1115549&utm_campaign=WSB%203_3_23&utm_medium=email&utm_source=seeking_alpha&utm_term=wall_street_breakfast
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I hate to tell you this, but a lot of the things we all use on a daily basis are made using exploited labor.
All LABOR IS EXPLOITED COMRADE, PROFIT IS THEFT
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All LABOR IS EXPLOITED COMRADE, PROFIT IS THEFT
So is private property
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I was hoping we would get Scoop's take on "there's no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism." That's the good stuff.
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I was hoping we would get Scoop's take on "there's no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism." That's the good stuff.
Jesmu can provide a YouTube video on that topic.
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All LABOR IS EXPLOITED COMRADE, PROFIT IS THEFT
True though.
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I didnt bother trying to figure out what is going on in the last page or so, but figured I'd throw my experience into the mix.
I have an Ioniq 5 for going on 6 months and have loved it. We are a two car family, and the other is am ICE that we have used for longer road trips where we just don't have faith in the charging ecosystem. Confident it will get there, but too many parts of the country are an EV wasteland. Even up in Green Bay, Fox Valleys leaves a lot to be desired, though is getting there.
Winter has been tough on the batter but not terrible with the battery warmer. However, the coldest days of the year (at or below 0) saw a dip of nearly 100 mi of range.
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Here's an AP article about the global race to make EVs work better in cold weather:
https://apnews.com/article/electric-vehicles-cold-weather-battery-ev-6d86b7aa19e233d5dcc4d2c9abb193ed?user_email=6647dfa7189f748384d7389910f7b584c6fcfc35ae990102964c7e826d4175c7&utm_medium=Morning_Wire&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_campaign=Mar4_MorningWire&utm_term=Morning%20Wire%20Subscribers
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My question is how will (do) people who live in apartments/condos charge their EVs?
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My question is how will (do) people who live in apartments/condos charge their EVs?
Chargers on the sidewalk where you would find a parking meter like they do in Europe.
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Lol. Sure. Definitely want average folks handing high voltage equipment
Exactly. My son is on the Penn Electric Racing team (studying EE among other things) and shared the safety training and that he was told be safe and smart or die. Obviously technology should continue to improve and hopefully one day 4evers thoughts are more of a reality.
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Chargers on the sidewalk where you would find a parking meter like they do in Europe.
What about in suburbs, or where there aren't parking meters? For example if there is a 200 unit apartment complex. Say 20% of that unit have EV's?
I googled it, and the first thing was,1. ask your landlord to install EV charging, 2. get a heavy duty extension cord, and a level one charger
Too much crime in Milwaukee for this to be feasible.
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Those are going to be obstacles to overcome. What do you do in an apartment complex? What do you do in a busy urban area like where you may park blocks from your home if you are lucky?
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Our last 3 1/2 years in Chicago we lived in a 17-story apartment building in Lakeview that had no parking. It’s a very densely populated area, almost all high- and mid-rise apartments. I was always grateful if I could find a street parking spot within 3 blocks.
I don’t know how infrastructure for EVs will ever be available in that kind of environment. And of course, if some chargers are ever installed, how do you combat vandalism and theft?
This is not unique to Chicago; most major cities have similar situations. It’s a huge challenge for the EV movement, and I’m not sure how you solve it.
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Life is better/easier with home charging.
You can own an EV by just using public chargers. But it's not convenient
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Life is better/easier with home charging.
You can own an EV by just using public chargers. But it's not convenient
Milwaukee charging stations
Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis Charging Stats
341 Total Stations 39 Free Stations 16 New Stations (90 days) 68 Fast Chargers 8 CHAdeMO Plugs 37 CCS Plugs 30 Superchargers 138 J-1772 Plugs
Saying not convenient is an understatement. That definitely needs to change, and hopefully it does. Who's going to pay for them?
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Milwaukee charging stations
Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis Charging Stats
341 Total Stations 39 Free Stations 16 New Stations (90 days) 68 Fast Chargers 8 CHAdeMO Plugs 37 CCS Plugs 30 Superchargers 138 J-1772 Plugs
Saying not convenient is an understatement. That definitely needs to change, and hopefully it does. Who's going to pay for them?
Right now, yes.
But if we're talking significant percentage of the population with EVs, there'd likely be significantly more chargers.
Who's going to pay for them? Who pays for gas stations?
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Right now, yes.
But if we're talking significant percentage of the population with EVs, there'd likely be significantly more chargers.
Who's going to pay for them? Who pays for gas stations?
You're going to need a lot more room for a charging station than you do for a gas station. Gas stations don't really make money from the gas, but from the convenience store items. That's what we need, more convenience stores.
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What about in suburbs, or where there aren't parking meters? For example if there is a 200 unit apartment complex. Say 20% of that unit have EV's?
I googled it, and the first thing was,1. ask your landlord to install EV charging, 2. get a heavy duty extension cord, and a level one charger
Too much crime in Milwaukee for this to be feasible.
Eventually there will be quick charge stations at the gas station or EV Station where they can "fill up".
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You're going to need a lot more room for a charging station than you do for a gas station. Gas stations don't really make money from the gas, but from the convenience store items. That's what we need, more convenience stores.
What? Have you seen a charging station?
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What? Have you seen a charging station?
Yes, and I have seen estimates from California, where they plan on having yearly sales of 1 million ZEVs by 2025. If a quick charge takes 30 minutes minimum, as opposed to 3 minutes to fill up with gas. They will need a heck of alot more chargers.
Still doesnt solve the apartment issue
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Yes, and I have seen estimates from California, where they plan on having yearly sales of 1 million ZEVs by 2025. If a quick charge takes 30 minutes minimum, as opposed to 3 minutes to fill up with gas. They will need a heck of alot more chargers.
Still doesnt solve the apartment issue
But why would you need more room?
Yes, you're going to need more chargers if there's more cars.
But replace every gas station with a charging station and there's likely no problem.
And it does solve the apartment issue. You charge at work - if available. Or you charge at a station just like you do now with a gas station.
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Yes, and I have seen estimates from California, where they plan on having yearly sales of 1 million ZEVs by 2025. If a quick charge takes 30 minutes minimum, as opposed to 3 minutes to fill up with gas. They will need a heck of alot more chargers.
Still doesnt solve the apartment issue
And you confusing the current status of EVs to where they will be in 3, 5, 10 years where it won't be 30 mins minimum, it will be less.
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Brother Lawdog:
Down here in Vero Beach, FL, we have significant ultra fast Tesla charging stations at the BP adjacent to Interstate 95, Exit 156. After my experience with a rental Tesla, I began looking just to see what's out there. There appears to be 12 to 16 charging stations for Teslas only -- for now. There also appears to be one at Fl 60, Exit 148, Vero Beach/Lake Wales.
I can hardly wait to see what Buck-ees does with EVs. Buck-ees is a Texas-based operation that is the mother of all convenience stores. Buck-ees is about four times the size of the biggest convenience station I've ever been in. Just guessing but the one in Georgia between Atlanta and the Georgia/Florida Line has about 200 pump islands surrounding it. To deal with Buck-ees demand, they'll probably either have to expropriate the sun or build a nuclear power plant next door. Buck-ees has an absolutely wonderful roadside dining experience, by the way.
As to the city, I'm spending 2.5 months in a ninth floor condo in Lincoln Park, Chicago, this summer. I've inquired about parking and found that most of the folks in the neighborhood park in a parking garage a block away. I'm guessing you'll see more of that and more city-sponsored EV charging stations (for a marked-up fee, of course, this is the City of Chicago).
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And you confusing the current status of EVs to where they will be in 3, 5, 10 years where it won't be 30 mins minimum, it will be less.
That would be an important consideration. Now, it takes a driver 5 minutes to fill up at a gas station. If the time to get an adequate charge can be knocked down to 10 minutes or less, it would definitely help solve the whole apartment-dwelling problem.
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Chargers at gas stations.
TravelCenters of America to deploy 1,000 Electrify America fast EV chargers at 200 locations
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/travelcenters-of-america-to-deploy-1000-electrify-america-fast-ev-chargers-at-200-locations/
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The wave of the future.
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Chargers at gas stations.
TravelCenters of America to deploy 1,000 Electrify America fast EV chargers at 200 locations
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/travelcenters-of-america-to-deploy-1000-electrify-america-fast-ev-chargers-at-200-locations/
1000 chargers over 5 years does not sound like many.Especially with this:
Bloomberg NEF projects that plug-in vehicle sales will rise from 6.6 million in 2021 to 20.6 million in 2025.
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That is probably worldwide sales.
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1000 chargers over 5 years does not sound like many.Especially with this:
Bloomberg NEF projects that plug-in vehicle sales will rise from 6.6 million in 2021 to 20.6 million in 2025.
Well they only have 289 total locations so they are covering most of what they own.
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https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-fsd-autopilot-spying-privacy/
Tesla is spying on you.
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https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-fsd-autopilot-spying-privacy/
Tesla is spying on you.
Looking into it
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i still believe hybrids are the way to go. i've used uber quite a bit and i have been picked up by a number of them. i was picked up by a tesla once-very cool, but i would think it has more limitations as the delay to charge regardless of how quick, would be counter productive.
until we can safely increase grid capability without compromising other services...we just cannot force the issue until it becomes more feasible for all.
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i still believe hybrids are the way to go. i've used uber quite a bit and i have been picked up by a number of them. i was picked up by a tesla once-very cool, but i would think it has more limitations as the delay to charge regardless of how quick, would be counter productive.
until we can safely increase grid capability without compromising other services...we just cannot force the issue until it becomes more feasible for all.
Charging my car has never been a limitation. Especially because 95% is done overnight in my garage
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Charging my car has never been a limitation. Especially because 95% is done overnight in my garage
Yessir.
My daughter and SIL have a Model X. They drove it from Seattle to Charlotte when they moved here and never had a significant problem or delay due to charging. They have 2 little kids and a dog, and they needed to make fairly frequent stops anyway, and the Tesla told them where charging stations were.
My SIL said he was a little concerned before the trip but now says he has absolutely no concerns about charging whatsoever. We're planning a long family trip soon and he's already looked at the route. His conclusion: "Charging will not be a problem at all."
jes, I have heard that some non-Tesla owners have found it a little more challenging to do that kind of trip. I don't know enough about the industry to know whether that's true or not. What's been your experience?
I bought a new car 2 months ago and it's a hybrid. I wasn't concerned about charging; I just wanted a mid-sized SUV and all of the EVs I looked at were either unavailable or outrageously expensive.
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Charging my car has never been a limitation. Especially because 95% is done overnight in my garage
yes, glad it works out for you. however, for uber/lyft/taxi/shuttles it may not be as feasible. according to some references, EV's account for about 6% of our vehicles. in order to allow for that number to increase to ?? we need to make sure our grids can support the extra demand.
how is this done? coal, natural gas, petroleum and nuclear. some solar, wind, biomass and geothermal are negligible.
we NEED to get back to being energy independent and that includes battery manufacturing. if our adversaries control this, we will be in a state of bohica
has anyone else noticed the increase in demand for residential generators? i am looking to buy a couple myself as we speak
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I look for a lot more home solar set ups. I look for office buildings in downtown town areas to get retrofitted with rooftop solar arrays. I can see getting a solar array on my garage roof and using it to recharge an EV.
I think battery technology is going to improve exponentially. 500 mile range will become the norm on EV's. Range in cold weather climates will be one of the last obstacles overcome.
The grid needs modernized. The modernization will not be cheap.
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has anyone else noticed the increase in demand for residential generators? i am looking to buy a couple myself as we speak
We have had one for 20 years, but that's because we live in the country and have well water. No power, no water. That's a BIG deal. Ours is fueled by an underground LP tank. Remember that if power is out in an area, the gasoline pumps are often down.
There is a common misconception that a generator can power the entire house easily, including A/C. ;D If you are trying to keep within a reasonable budget, take some time to determine what appliances, circuits etc. are important to you and those which you can easily do without. If you simply have to have A/C, be ready to spend Big Time.
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We have had one for 20 years, but that's because we live in the country and have well water. No power, no water. That's a BIG deal. Ours is fueled by an underground LP tank. Remember that if power is out in an area, the gasoline pumps are often down.
There is a common misconception that a generator can power the entire house easily, including A/C. ;D If you are trying to keep within a reasonable budget, take some time to determine what appliances, circuits etc. are important to you and those which you can easily do without. If you simply have to have A/C, be ready to spend Big Time.
Double what scoop said. Too many people buy generators that don’t match what they want/need. In a previous life time, I worked in that world and even after explaining what it would take to do what people were looking to do, they thought they could get by with less.
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Double what scoop said. Too many people buy generators that don’t match what they want/need. In a previous life time, I worked in that world and even after explaining what it would take to do what people were looking to do, they thought they could get by with less.
Did you generate lots of sales?
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Did you generate lots of sales?
Yes. It was during 2YK 😂
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Yes. It was during 2YK 😂
I'd comment, but we're all dead after the world ended.
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There's an interesting article from the current issue of Smithsonian Magazine regarding generating electricity from cow manure, food waste (there is a massive amount of it) and other sources. This is still in its infancy, but I think holds promise for the future. Of course, some of you may call BS on this, and you would be absolutely right.
I could not get the link to focus only on the article, but to put it mildly, I am no tech whiz. You may find it by using "digester" as a key word to home in on the article. This link only gets you to the mag home page. Good luck. I would appreciate a FIFY from anyone.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com › innovatnrmers-turning-manure-into-money-180981
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There's an interesting article from the current issue of Smithsonian Magazine regarding generating electricity from cow manure, food waste (there is a massive amount of it) and other sources. This is still in its infancy, but I think holds promise for the future. Of course, some of you may call BS on this, and you would be absolutely right.
I could not get the link to focus only on the article, but to put it mildly, I am no tech whiz. You may find it by using "digester" as a key word to home in on the article. This link only gets you to the mag home page. Good luck. I would appreciate a FIFY from anyone.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com › innovatnrmers-turning-manure-into-money-180981
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-anaerobic-digestion-becoming-next-big-renewable-energy-source-180960992/
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Imagine what could be generated from a steady diet of Real Chili and Amigo's chimis.
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Thanks for the link Unk, but it is not for the article about a 4th generation farm in Massachusetts that I read. I DO appreciate the FIFY though. Same basic story, just a different setting- England rather than Massachusetts.
Back to generators- unless they have really improved in fuel efficiency since we got ours 20 years ago, they are very thirsty. Not cheap to run at all. Our local electricity co-op is far, far less expensive when measured on a per diem basis. Something else to consider before buying a huge one. Rico, please comment regarding the more recent models regarding fuel efficiency from your salesman days.
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yes, glad it works out for you. however, for uber/lyft/taxi/shuttles it may not be as feasible. according to some references, EV's account for about 6% of our vehicles. in order to allow for that number to increase to ?? we need to make sure our grids can support the extra demand.
how is this done? coal, natural gas, petroleum and nuclear. some solar, wind, biomass and geothermal are negligible.
we NEED to get back to being energy independent and that includes battery manufacturing. if our adversaries control this, we will be in a state of bohica
has anyone else noticed the increase in demand for residential generators? i am looking to buy a couple myself as we speak
If it's not feasible, then Uber/Lyft/taxis/shuttles won't use EVs. But that's true of any individual's use case. If it's not feasible/reliable, then don't buy an EV.
I fail to see the problem.
On an energy supply discussion, when was the last time we were truly energy independent? Is it a good thing that we don't control our own energy even within our own borders?
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yes, glad it works out for you. however, for uber/lyft/taxi/shuttles it may not be as feasible. according to some references, EV's account for about 6% of our vehicles. in order to allow for that number to increase to ?? we need to make sure our grids can support the extra demand.
how is this done? coal, natural gas, petroleum and nuclear. some solar, wind, biomass and geothermal are negligible.
we NEED to get back to being energy independent and that includes battery manufacturing. if our adversaries control this, we will be in a state of bohica
has anyone else noticed the increase in demand for residential generators? i am looking to buy a couple myself as we speak
I think the biggest issue that EVs will run into is the charging station infrastructure. There needs to be regulations and government funding to make them all the same and ubiquitous. Otherwise there is no point in mandating car manufacturers to build only EVs after XXXX year.
I don't think we need to get back to being energy independent, but we should always have plans to become energy independent quickly if the need should arise. Otherwise, we should be buying inexpensive petroleum while we can, and saving ours as a reserve in case of a global crisis. I agree with you that we should be manufacturing batteries and committing a lot of financial resources to battery development.
My parents have a residential generator at their lake house. I think it has gone on once in 5 years. Peace of mind, but there is maintenance to consider.
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I think the biggest issue that EVs will run into is the charging station infrastructure. There needs to be regulations and government funding to make them all the same and ubiquitous. Otherwise there is no point in mandating car manufacturers to build only EVs after XXXX year.
I don't think we need to get back to being energy independent, but we should always have plans to become energy independent quickly if the need should arise. Otherwise, we should be buying inexpensive petroleum while we can, and saving ours as a reserve in case of a global crisis. I agree with you that we should be manufacturing batteries and committing a lot of financial resources to battery development.
My parents have a residential generator at their lake house. I think it has gone on once in 5 years. Peace of mind, but there is maintenance to consider.
Charging stations are a mess right now. The only reason we have any semi-usable system is because of the VW lawsuit and Tesla (and lots of govt subsidies)
But there needs to be significantly more rollout of more chargers with better upkeep. Regulations would help immensely.
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My parents have a residential generator at their lake house. I think it has gone on once in 5 years. Peace of mind, but there is maintenance to consider.
Ours goes on 4-6 times a year, but when we first had it installed, it kicked on more often. Our electric co-op has been more aggressively trimming or cutting down trees that threaten the power lines in recent years, but probably the biggest improvement in keeping the power on is their use of technology to pinpoint where the problems are as soon as they occur. In the past, it took them a quite a while to find the problem in the woods (there are thousands of acres around here) but they now get power back up quickly.
With the developments in batteries, it may be easier in the future to rely on a battery system for short term outages. As you said, there are maintenance issues with generators. A common misconception is that they are simply engines that can easily be repaired and maintained. Not so. They require special knowledge and skills to repair.
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Imagine what could be generated from a steady diet of Real Chili and Amigo's chimis.
The EPA would shut that bad ass down so fast heads would spin.
Talk about global warming -- you can't produce enough petroleum to do what that would!
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The EPA would shut that bad ass down so fast heads would spin.
Talk about global warming -- you can't produce enough petroleum to do what that would!
Let's pass this idea to the Ukrainians. They could probably develop a stink bomb out of it that would make the Russians surrender and beg for mercy.
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We have had one for 20 years, but that's because we live in the country and have well water. No power, no water. That's a BIG deal. Ours is fueled by an underground LP tank. Remember that if power is out in an area, the gasoline pumps are often down.
There is a common misconception that a generator can power the entire house easily, including A/C. ;D If you are trying to keep within a reasonable budget, take some time to determine what appliances, circuits etc. are important to you and those which you can easily do without. If you simply have to have A/C, be ready to spend Big Time.
all good points scoop. i also have my own well water/septic. i'm thinking 20,000 Kw should do it. i'd run mine off the natural gas line that presently supplies the house.
if one was worried about the amount of power needed, don't run your water, flush toilets etc if you need to heat/cool your house. use certain aspects independently. if your house is warm enough-62-65? shut off the furnace and visit the library in your leggings, get rid of the growler, bust it up with an old broom stick, flush twice, let the water refresh, resume heating your house
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all good points scoop. i also have my own well water/septic. i'm thinking 20,000 Kw should do it. i'd run mine off the natural gas line that presently supplies the house.
if one was worried about the amount of power needed, don't run your water, flush toilets etc if you need to heat/cool your house. use certain aspects independently. if your house is warm enough-62-65? shut off the furnace and visit the library in your leggings, get rid of the growler, bust it up with an old broom stick, flush twice, let the water refresh, resume heating your house
That's one big ass generator. Ours is 5,000. We run everything we want to but keep things pretty basic. No problem with water pump, blower fan to move heat generated by gas furnace (heat pump off), TV, internet, lights, fridge, etc. I planned carefully for all this when we built the house- gas as the source for heat, water heater, generator, stove, clothes dryer- so we are all set if power goes out for days. A/C is not available via generator, but we have ceiling fans, lots of windows and two sets of French doors and 12 acres with lots of trees.
If the cost of running that huge generator does not bother you, go for it. It should handle your A/C in summer. Unless they have become much more efficient, they guzzle fuel. Does not matter if you are drawing the power generated from them or not. They are very inefficient as a power source in terms of operating expense.
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That's one big ass generator. Ours is 5,000. We run everything we want to but keep things pretty basic. No problem with water pump, blower fan to move heat generated by gas furnace (heat pump off), TV, internet, lights, fridge, etc. I planned carefully for all this when we built the house- gas as the source for heat, water heater, generator, stove, clothes dryer- so we are all set if power goes out for days. A/C is not available via generator, but we have ceiling fans, lots of windows and two sets of French doors and 12 acres with lots of trees.
If the cost of running that huge generator does not bother you, go for it. It should handle your A/C in summer. Unless they have become much more efficient, they guzzle fuel. Does not matter if you are drawing the power generated from them or not. They are very inefficient as a power source in terms of operating expense.
that is the calculation they make for a 3000 sq ft house if you want essentially everything pretty much working within normal. i will be asking a lot of questions however, based on what i find out along the way including here. given that i will probably want one for each of my homes, i will be looking more toward running essentials, i.e. heat/A/C, refrigeration, water pump and intermittent IT. i have gas stove and oven. what are my NEEDS to get by hopefully for short bursts of time up to a few days or so. i'm hoping and/or not planning for an "armageddon" but would like to protect my investments
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that is the calculation they make for a 3000 sq ft house if you want essentially everything pretty much working within normal. i will be asking a lot of questions however, based on what i find out along the way including here. given that i will probably want one for each of my homes, i will be looking more toward running essentials, i.e. heat/A/C, refrigeration, water pump and intermittent IT. i have gas stove and oven. what are my NEEDS to get by hopefully for short bursts of time up to a few days or so. i'm hoping and/or not planning for an "armageddon" but would like to protect my investments
Since A/C-heat pump is on your list of must-haves, yeah, you'll need a pretty big one. From what you wrote itis clear that you are analyzing this and, I think, alert to being sold on more than is needed. Our heat/AC guy is great and explained to me that when a compressor kicks on, there is quite a spike in power before settling down. This is probably the biggest reason that a large capacity generator is required. Also, compressors-including fridges- can be damaged if they have insufficient power. Most A/C's have built in safety systems to prevent this, but some fridges do not.
As I said, our power outages have become far less frequent. Now, tree trimming on steep, rocky paths through the woods is often done by a helicopter with a huge, remotely controlled chain saw.
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Now, tree trimming on steep, rocky paths through the woods is often done by a helicopter with a huge, remotely controlled chain saw.
This is the first step for AI taking over the world
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Somewhat lengthy global reveal of newest EV from VW. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VamBddnCwak (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VamBddnCwak)
Too bad the electro-luminescent paint will not be standard (or likely available at all).
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Somewhat lengthy global reveal of newest EV from VW. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VamBddnCwak (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VamBddnCwak)
Too bad the electro-luminescent paint will not be standard (or likely available at all).
The paint is slick.
I find it interesting that the German automakers seem opposed to integrating (for lack of a better term) the touch screen into the dash. BMW, newer VWs, etc.. have the appearance of a large tablet mounted on instead of recessed into the greater dash panel.
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The wave of the future.
Mandated by the government.
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The paint is slick.
I find it interesting that the German automakers seem opposed to integrating (for lack of a better term) the touch screen into the dash. BMW, newer VWs, etc.. have the appearance of a large tablet mounted on instead of recessed into the greater dash panel.
Aren't most EVs the same in terms of the appearance of the screen? Seems to be the trend, but I also prefer the look of it integrated into the dash.
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The paint is slick.
I find it interesting that the German automakers seem opposed to integrating (for lack of a better term) the touch screen into the dash. BMW, newer VWs, etc.. have the appearance of a large tablet mounted on instead of recessed into the greater dash panel.
Personally, I don't care for the touch screen panels. They're hideous. Give me the analog dials that Mazda uses.
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This is the first step for AI taking over the world
The Pillow Guy Mike Lindell says "It's End Times" for elections due to AI.
Steve Bannon agrees. "The artificial intelligence changes everything," Bannon opined. "You can't have anything related to a machine have anything to do whatsoever with a vote. It's got to be a paper freaking ballot."
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The Pillow Guy Mike Lindell says "It's End Times" for elections due to AI.
Steve Bannon agrees. "The artificial intelligence changes everything," Bannon opined. "You can't have anything related to a machine have anything to do whatsoever with a vote. It's got to be a paper freaking ballot."
If that's what they think, we have nothing to worry about.
Election voting should be in public, and once you cast your vote, you need to be tattooed.
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If that's what they think, we have nothing to worry about.
Election voting should be in public, and once you cast your vote, you need to be tattooed.
Or dip your finger in purple paint
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Somewhat lengthy global reveal of newest EV from VW. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VamBddnCwak (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VamBddnCwak)
Too bad the electro-luminescent paint will not be standard (or likely available at all).
Will never own another VW. The just make garbage with no quality control. And they are lying no integrity bastards to boot.
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Will never own another VW. The just make garbage with no quality control. And they are lying no integrity bastards to boot.
Hitler created the VW Beetle
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Hitler created the VW Beetle
And Hitler ... there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon! Two coats!!
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Every EV CEO has blood on their hands and are flat out lying about child labor in the Congolese mines. We need to find an alternative to cobalt and support basic human rights which is nowhere to be found there. The single most cobalt rich spot on earth doesn't even provide electricity for its people. It's a fking catastrophe as bad as rubber under KLII. These poor people have no way out and are living in conditions as if it were 100+ years ago. This needs to be part of the conversation and very few are giving it the time of day.
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The paint is slick.
I find it interesting that the German automakers seem opposed to integrating (for lack of a better term) the touch screen into the dash. BMW, newer VWs, etc.. have the appearance of a large tablet mounted on instead of recessed into the greater dash panel.
I think this is true across the board. Kia, Hyundai, Ford, GM.
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Every EV CEO has blood on their hands and are flat out lying about child labor in the Congolese mines. We need to find an alternative to cobalt and support basic human rights which is nowhere to be found there. The single most cobalt rich spot on earth doesn't even provide electricity for its people. It's a fking catastrophe as bad as rubber under KLII. These poor people have no way out and are living in conditions as if it were 100+ years ago. This needs to be part of the conversation and very few are giving it the time of day.
This is why I walk everywhere barefoot
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This is why I walk everywhere barefoot
And only eat food you find on the ground.
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And only eat food you find on the ground.
It’s hard to be anymore woke than I already am. These boycotts are going to kille me but you’d be surprised how many pudding cups one finds nowadays
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Every EV CEO has blood on their hands and are flat out lying about child labor in the Congolese mines. We need to find an alternative to cobalt and support basic human rights which is nowhere to be found there. The single most cobalt rich spot on earth doesn't even provide electricity for its people. It's a fking catastrophe as bad as rubber under KLII. These poor people have no way out and are living in conditions as if it were 100+ years ago. This needs to be part of the conversation and very few are giving it the time of day.
Honestly, if you owned or drove a Chevy Cobalt, you should be subject to severe financial reparations and likely prison time
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Yessir.
My daughter and SIL have a Model X. They drove it from Seattle to Charlotte when they moved here and never had a significant problem or delay due to charging. They have 2 little kids and a dog, and they needed to make fairly frequent stops anyway, and the Tesla told them where charging stations were.
My SIL said he was a little concerned before the trip but now says he has absolutely no concerns about charging whatsoever. We're planning a long family trip soon and he's already looked at the route. His conclusion: "Charging will not be a problem at all."
jes, I have heard that some non-Tesla owners have found it a little more challenging to do that kind of trip. I don't know enough about the industry to know whether that's true or not. What's been your experience?
I bought a new car 2 months ago and it's a hybrid. I wasn't concerned about charging; I just wanted a mid-sized SUV and all of the EVs I looked at were either unavailable or outrageously expensive.
So only Tesla's can be charged at Tesla charging stations? I cannot imagine going to a gas station that only serves GM cars and trucks and another that only served Hondas etc. If the government is going to mandate EVs through stricter EPA compliance they better mandate that all charging receptacles on the cars are universal and can be charged anywhere. Also all EVs should be linked to to your Utility account automatically so they can compute the road tax as well as the cost of charging.
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So only Tesla's can be charged at Tesla charging stations? I cannot imagine going to a gas station that only serves GM cars and trucks and another that only served Hondas etc. If the government is going to mandate EVs through stricter EPA compliance they better mandate that all charging receptacles on the cars are universal and can be charged anywhere. Also all EVs should be linked to to your Utility account automatically so they can compute the road tax as well as the cost of charging.
No, Teslas can be charged anywhere, at any charging station. Tesla will just naturally tell you where their network of chargers are. Same as if you asked Mobil where gas stations were they wouldn't tell you BP locations.
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So only Tesla's can be charged at Tesla charging stations? I cannot imagine going to a gas station that only serves GM cars and trucks and another that only served Hondas etc. If the government is going to mandate EVs through stricter EPA compliance they better mandate that all charging receptacles on the cars are universal and can be charged anywhere. Also all EVs should be linked to to your Utility account automatically so they can compute the road tax as well as the cost of charging.
This is a huge unresolved issue- fuel taxes that EV owners are not paying that would contribute to road repairs and maintenance. The current structure may still work while there are enough gas or diesel powered vehicles, but there will need to be either other methods or an entirely new approach in the near future to generate sufficient revenue, which in this case is just a nice word for taxes. Taxing recharging at the owner's home is not, in my opinion, feasible.
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This is a huge unresolved issue- fuel taxes that EV owners are not paying that would contribute to road repairs and maintenance. The current structure may still work while there are enough gas or diesel powered vehicles, but there will need to be either other methods or an entirely new approach in the near future to generate sufficient revenue, which in this case is just a nice word for taxes. Taxing recharging at the owner's home is not, in my opinion, feasible.
Mileage taxes have been discussed as a means to replace a gas tax as far back as when the Prius was new.
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Tesla is already spying on you. No reason that mileage can't be monitored and tax assessed, a la an EZ Pass.
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Mileage taxes have been discussed as a means to replace a gas tax as far back as when the Prius was new.
Ok. Now let's say it's time that the taxes are due, and a rather large percentage of the EV owners are delinquent. Enforcement? Collection?
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Cobalt may very well be gone by 2050.
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Every EV CEO has blood on their hands and are flat out lying about child labor in the Congolese mines. We need to find an alternative to cobalt and support basic human rights which is nowhere to be found there. The single most cobalt rich spot on earth doesn't even provide electricity for its people. It's a fking catastrophe as bad as rubber under KLII. These poor people have no way out and are living in conditions as if it were 100+ years ago. This needs to be part of the conversation and very few are giving it the time of day.
You gotta chill man, who do you think makes your Iphone? It ain't Greg from up the street.
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You gotta chill man, who do you think makes your Iphone? It ain't Greg from up the street.
If iPhones were made with gas, problem solved
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1. Teslas can DC charge anywhere. Non-teslas cannot charge at Tesla super chargers (DC). Though that is kinda being slowly changed as Tesla took IRA money for charging.
1a. Fast/DC charging is currently very much like cellphones. Apple/Tesla use their own proprietary connector. All other EVs across the globe use the equivalent of USB.
2. BEVs/PHEVs and hybrids almost all pay a tax somewhere to offset not paying road taxes at the pump. In Indiana, for example, we pay significantly higher plate/registration fees.
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You gotta chill man, who do you think makes your Iphone? It ain't Greg from up the street.
Ya....that's not the point. Do you think Siddharth Kara owns a cell phone? It's about understanding that our obsession with going all EV is at a significant cost and we need alternatives to Cobalt. It's about the media and EV CEO's completely disregarding the Congolese people and the fact that there's a modern slave system in the Congo including young children picking Cobalt. And it's about China controlling 92% of this entire syatem before it is turned over to the consumer part of the supply chain. Everyone should read Cobalt Red, we're dealing with a disgusting human tragedy.
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Ya....that's not the point. Do you think Siddharth Kara owns a cell phone? It's about understanding that our obsession with going all EV is at a significant cost and we need alternatives to Cobalt. It's about the media and EV CEO's completely disregarding the Congolese people and the fact that there's a modern slave system in the Congo including young children picking Cobalt. And it's about China controlling 92% of this entire syatem before it is turned over to the consumer part of the supply chain. Everyone should read Cobalt Red, we're dealing with a disgusting human tragedy.
How much cobalt is used in the latest EV batteries?
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How much cobalt is used in the latest EV batteries?
10-30%
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10-30%
or:
Tesla helped pave the way for stricter supply chain labor and less reliance on cobalt for EV battery production. The company’s batteries contain** less than 5% of cobalt,** and they’re currently developing their own batteries that will be cobalt-free.
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or:
Tesla helped pave the way for stricter supply chain labor and less reliance on cobalt for EV battery production. The company’s batteries contain** less than 5% of cobalt,** and they’re currently developing their own batteries that will be cobalt-free.
Ya a lot of these companies have lied repeatedly and the demand for Cobalt the next decade will go up 500%. These are the same companies that have stated they don't use child labor and that the mines they use are excavated humanely and "Cobalt Clean". As Kara pointed out in his book this is complete b-crap.
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Ya....that's not the point. Do you think Siddharth Kara owns a cell phone? It's about understanding that our obsession with going all EV is at a significant cost and we need alternatives to Cobalt. It's about the media and EV CEO's completely disregarding the Congolese people and the fact that there's a modern slave system in the Congo including young children picking Cobalt. And it's about China controlling 92% of this entire syatem before it is turned over to the consumer part of the supply chain. Everyone should read Cobalt Red, we're dealing with a disgusting human tragedy.
What if I told you that there are more slaves today than any point in history.
How would you feel about that reality?
https://50forfreedom.org/modern-slavery/
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we have been in the process of creating even more slavery with our "secure" border policies. cartels are swimming in cash and unfortunately we have companies right here who are amorally putting these kids to work. not to mention the sex industry-that's even sicker!
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we have been in the process of creating even more slavery with our "secure" border policies. cartels are swimming in cash and unfortunately we have companies right here who are amorally putting these kids to work. not to mention the sex industry-that's even sicker!
Some states are even easing child labor laws! It’s sick
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we have been in the process of creating even more slavery with our "secure" border policies. cartels are swimming in cash and unfortunately we have companies right here who are amorally putting these kids to work.
If only Mexico could have been forced to pay for a big, beautiful wall.
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we have been in the process of creating even more slavery with our "secure" border policies. cartels are swimming in cash and unfortunately we have companies right here who are amorally putting these kids to work. not to mention the sex industry-that's even sicker!
Too much silliness here to unpack, so I'm just going to move on.
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Too much silliness here to unpack, so I'm just going to move on.
It’s an 8.5 out of 10
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What if I told you that there are more slaves today than any point in history.
How would you feel about that reality?
https://50forfreedom.org/modern-slavery/
So you agree with me. Cool.
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we have been in the process of creating even more slavery with our "secure" border policies. cartels are swimming in cash and unfortunately we have companies right here who are amorally putting these kids to work. not to mention the sex industry-that's even sicker!
"When all the talking points mix freely and spew out in a toxic sludge"
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So you agree with me. Cool.
I think everyone agrees that slavery is bad. Especially child slavery. But you're hyperfocusing on EVs for some reason. I don't imagine that if we started a thread here about phones you'd be bringing up slavery.
Many many things we use and consume on a daily basis are brought to us by slave labor.
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Ya....that's not the point. Do you think Siddharth Kara owns a cell phone? It's about understanding that our obsession with going all EV is at a significant cost and we need alternatives to Cobalt. It's about the media and EV CEO's completely disregarding the Congolese people and the fact that there's a modern slave system in the Congo including young children picking Cobalt. And it's about China controlling 92% of this entire syatem before it is turned over to the consumer part of the supply chain. Everyone should read Cobalt Red, we're dealing with a disgusting human tragedy.
It's high time we train animals to carry out this dangerous and dirty work. It would be a big advantage to endangered animals, as it would raise their value and increase protection of them. Siberian tigers and spotted leopards would be a lot more valuable as slave laborers than as fur coats.
You're welcome endangered animals.
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It's high time we train animals to carry out this dangerous and dirty work. It would be a big advantage to endangered animals, as it would raise their value and increase protection of them. Siberian tigers and spotted leopards would be a lot more valuable as slave laborers than as fur coats.
You're welcome endangered animals.
🐷🐷
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It's high time we train animals to carry out this dangerous and dirty work. It would be a big advantage to endangered animals, as it would raise their value and increase protection of them. Siberian tigers and spotted leopards would be a lot more valuable as slave laborers than as fur coats.
You're welcome endangered animals.
Stop attacking innocent species and being ridiculous.
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The children yearn for the mines. It's important that we rescind strip mining restrictions so that these kids can work outside in the fresh air.
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Like Arkansas.
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🐷🐷
I'm sorry you are dumb. Is there some sort of charity I can contribute to that would make your life better, like a Jerry Lewis telethon sort of thing, but just for you?
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I'm sorry you are dumb. Is there some sort of charity I can contribute to that would make your life better, like a Jerry Lewis telethon sort of thing, but just for you?
I thought jerry Lewis telethons were for muscular dystrophy. You calling those people “ dumb”? Being born with a disability has nothing to do with intellect. You ever meet a person with muscular dystrophy?
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I thought jerry Lewis telethons were for muscular dystrophy. You calling those people “ dumb”? Being born with a disability has nothing to do with intellect. You ever meet a person with muscular dystrophy?
ehh that's a stretch, or your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.
Shouldn't call people dumb, though. Unless you think ZFB is mute.
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ehh that's a stretch, or your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.
Shouldn't call people dumb, though. Unless you think ZFB is mute.
What?
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What?
That's deaf, not dumb.
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ehh that's a stretch, or your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.
Shouldn't call people dumb, though. Unless you think ZFB is mute.
where's the stretch? maybe smitty can clarify for us then. here's what i read, ziggy dumb-charity-jerry lewis telethon. he obviously feels sorry for zig because as he states that he must be dumb and further believes if he were to donate to jerry lewis telethon(which hasn't existed since 2011) that zig could get the help that he felt was needed. so, most who are connecting the dots here with me would think, oh, MDA must be a bunch of congenitally muscularly challenged "dumb" people. i think kevin hart took over the fund raising for MDA however. but when they had some of the patients on tv who have been so unfortunately afflicted, they did not seem "dumb" at all. well, depends on how smitty defines dumb i guess. because he must have seen "dumb" people on that show. i will admit that i did occasionally step away or was distracted for a bite to eat, to relieve myself, take a phone call, make a phone call, etc so maybe i just could have missed something
so maybe smitty knows something we don't and could share with us because there have been many areas in which scoop has enlightened me, i just thought this could be another one of those teaching "moments". smitty does seem to take center stage here in the "smartest people in the room" group on just about everything else, showing us how "worldly" he is on such a wide array of topics. unless i'm missing something, i'm all ears for his enlightened response
and yes, use of the word dumb is strongly discouraged today's lexicon which i thought smitty would have known, but even he makes an occasional mistake-gasp-say it ain't so
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where's the stretch? maybe smitty can clarify for us then. here's what i read, ziggy dumb-charity-jerry lewis telethon. he obviously feels sorry for zig because as he states that he must be dumb and further believes if he were to donate to jerry lewis telethon(which hasn't existed since 2011) that zig could get the help that he felt was needed. so, most who are connecting the dots here with me would think, oh, MDA must be a bunch of congenitally muscularly challenged "dumb" people. i think kevin hart took over the fund raising for MDA however. but when they had some of the patients on tv who have been so unfortunately afflicted, they did not seem "dumb" at all. well, depends on how smitty defines dumb i guess. because he must have seen "dumb" people on that show. i will admit that i did occasionally step away or was distracted for a bite to eat, to relieve myself, take a phone call, make a phone call, etc so maybe i just could have missed something
so maybe smitty knows something we don't and could share with us because there have been many areas in which scoop has enlightened me, i just thought this could be another one of those teaching "moments". smitty does seem to take center stage here in the "smartest people in the room" group on just about everything else, showing us how "worldly" he is on such a wide array of topics. unless i'm missing something, i'm all ears for his enlightened response
and yes, use of the word dumb is strongly discouraged today's lexicon which i thought smitty would have known, but even he makes an occasional mistake-gasp-say it ain't so
Dude...all of this because you yet again read it incorrectly. "like a Jerry Lewis telethon, just for you" aka implying ZFB was a special type of dumb that would require a telethon to raise funds for him. In no way did he attack the JLT or muscular dystrophy/those effected by it
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where's the stretch? maybe smitty can clarify for us then. here's what i read, ziggy dumb-charity-jerry lewis telethon. he obviously feels sorry for zig because as he states that he must be dumb and further believes if he were to donate to jerry lewis telethon(which hasn't existed since 2011) that zig could get the help that he felt was needed. so, most who are connecting the dots here with me would think, oh, MDA must be a bunch of congenitally muscularly challenged "dumb" people. i think kevin hart took over the fund raising for MDA however. but when they had some of the patients on tv who have been so unfortunately afflicted, they did not seem "dumb" at all. well, depends on how smitty defines dumb i guess. because he must have seen "dumb" people on that show. i will admit that i did occasionally step away or was distracted for a bite to eat, to relieve myself, take a phone call, make a phone call, etc so maybe i just could have missed something
so maybe smitty knows something we don't and could share with us because there have been many areas in which scoop has enlightened me, i just thought this could be another one of those teaching "moments". smitty does seem to take center stage here in the "smartest people in the room" group on just about everything else, showing us how "worldly" he is on such a wide array of topics. unless i'm missing something, i'm all ears for his enlightened response
and yes, use of the word dumb is strongly discouraged today's lexicon which i thought smitty would have known, but even he makes an occasional mistake-gasp-say it ain't so
A glimpse into your rationale is fascinating.
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where's the stretch? maybe smitty can clarify for us then. here's what i read, ziggy dumb-charity-jerry lewis telethon. he obviously feels sorry for zig because as he states that he must be dumb and further believes if he were to donate to jerry lewis telethon(which hasn't existed since 2011) that zig could get the help that he felt was needed. so, most who are connecting the dots here with me would think, oh, MDA must be a bunch of congenitally muscularly challenged "dumb" people. i think kevin hart took over the fund raising for MDA however. but when they had some of the patients on tv who have been so unfortunately afflicted, they did not seem "dumb" at all. well, depends on how smitty defines dumb i guess. because he must have seen "dumb" people on that show. i will admit that i did occasionally step away or was distracted for a bite to eat, to relieve myself, take a phone call, make a phone call, etc so maybe i just could have missed something
so maybe smitty knows something we don't and could share with us because there have been many areas in which scoop has enlightened me, i just thought this could be another one of those teaching "moments". smitty does seem to take center stage here in the "smartest people in the room" group on just about everything else, showing us how "worldly" he is on such a wide array of topics. unless i'm missing something, i'm all ears for his enlightened response
and yes, use of the word dumb is strongly discouraged today's lexicon which i thought smitty would have known, but even he makes an occasional mistake-gasp-say it ain't so
OK, ok, ok, you've convinced me: you should be included in the Telethon as well.
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Dude...all of this because you yet again read it incorrectly. "like a Jerry Lewis telethon, just for you" aka implying ZFB was a special type of dumb that would require a telethon to raise funds for him. In no way did he attack the JLT or muscular dystrophy/those effected by it
gotta love the "slop room" ya give some
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https://www.motortrend.com/news/camsoda-sexla-robotaxi-self-driving/
Speaking of 'slop room.'
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Chile - 2nd largest lithium producer - has nationalized their lithium production.
Be interesting to see the geopolitical ramifications.
The US up for another Chilean coup?
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gotta love the "slop room" ya give some
Do you even realize who you're responding to?
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Ford and now GM.
NACS has won. CCS ports are dead.
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https://scotscoop.com/opinion-electric-cars-are-not-driving-towards-the-future/#:~:text=Electric%2Dpowered%20cars%20are%20not,of%20current%20gasoline%2Dpowered%20cars.
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https://scotscoop.com/opinion-electric-cars-are-not-driving-towards-the-future/#:~:text=Electric%2Dpowered%20cars%20are%20not,of%20current%20gasoline%2Dpowered%20cars.
That's written by a HS junior that thinks nuclear powered cars are the answer? OK.
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https://scotscoop.com/opinion-electric-cars-are-not-driving-towards-the-future/#:~:text=Electric%2Dpowered%20cars%20are%20not,of%20current%20gasoline%2Dpowered%20cars.
Do you often read opinion pieces from high school newspapers?
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That’s freaking awesome
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https://scotscoop.com/opinion-electric-cars-are-not-driving-towards-the-future/#:~:text=Electric%2Dpowered%20cars%20are%20not,of%20current%20gasoline%2Dpowered%20cars.
I've seen enough, this is the post of the decade.
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https://www.energyportal.eu/news/pges-ceo-wants-electric-vehicles-to-save-californias-power-grid-4/136709/
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https://www.energyportal.eu/news/pges-ceo-wants-electric-vehicles-to-save-californias-power-grid-4/136709/
Texas should be doing the same, but Texas is Texas.
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https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/the-story/odot-gas-tax-electric-vehicle-pay-per-mile/283-fad1a341-0550-4c70-aa93-bfe5ead3f4c4
Why a GPS? They should only collect the odometer output.
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https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/the-story/odot-gas-tax-electric-vehicle-pay-per-mile/283-fad1a341-0550-4c70-aa93-bfe5ead3f4c4
Why a GPS? They should only collect the odometer output.
It’s voluntary and easier than reporting. And really who cares?
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Ford CEO learns the hard way about the pains of charging an EV:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12421505/Ford-CEO-Jim-Farley-admits-electric-F-150-Lightning-needs-improvement-charging-issues.html
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Ford CEO learns the hard way about the pains of charging an EV:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12421505/Ford-CEO-Jim-Farley-admits-electric-F-150-Lightning-needs-improvement-charging-issues.html
There is nothing surprising here.
I have no charging problems with my EV
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There is nothing surprising here.
I have no charging problems with my EV
The commune has chargers?
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There is nothing surprising here.
I have no charging problems with my EV
maybe you could call the ford ceo and give him some pointers
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There is nothing surprising here.
I have no charging problems with my EV
When one is going nowhere and has all day to get there…
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maybe you could call the ford ceo and give him some pointers
Like should have bought a Tesla? Or Ford should have bought Tesla when it was cheap?
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It’s voluntary and easier than reporting. And really who cares?
When it becomes mandatory and a DA has automatic access to ones driving history without a warrant many will start caring.
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When it becomes mandatory and a DA has automatic access to ones driving history without a warrant many will start caring.
But it’s not and they don’t.
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When it becomes mandatory and a DA has automatic access to ones driving history without a warrant many will start caring.
Slippery slope fallacy
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When it becomes mandatory and a DA has automatic access to ones driving history without a warrant many will start caring.
Put a farraday cage on the transmitter and continue on with your life.
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When it becomes mandatory and a DA has automatic access to ones driving history without a warrant many will start caring.
You've been living under big brother surveillance since September 12, 2001 but a voluntary road tax collection program in a state you don't live in spooks you?
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https://www.businessinsider.com/dealers-turning-away-evs-velectric-cars-demand-cools-inventory-2023-8
Unsurprising. Not to mention, I don't know who buys new cars these days. The last new car I bought was in 2003.
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https://www.businessinsider.com/dealers-turning-away-evs-velectric-cars-demand-cools-inventory-2023-8
Unsurprising. Not to mention, I don't know who buys new cars these days. The last new car I bought was in 2003.
The last used car I bought was in 1997.
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The last used car I bought was in 1997.
Not all of us have 50K under our couch cushions.
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Not all of us have 50K under our couch cushions.
Haven't even come close to spending that. I buy practical, with not a lot of bells and whistles, but new.
Oh I should have added that my parents gave us a car when kid #1 started driving. So while I didn't *buy* a used car, I did *acquire* one.
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Haven't even come close to spending that. I buy practical, with not a lot of bells and whistles, but new.
Last I checked that's about the average price of a new car, not to mention the APR rates. Thankfully my mom is awesome and gave me her Accord with 25K. :) Most people aren't that lucky. This is another monumental problem and we're a long way away from EV infrastructure in rural areas.
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I've had zero problems buying 3 year old cars, likely off lease.
Easy way to get a 30-40% discount on a low-mileage car with ~35k on the clock.
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I've had zero problems buying 3 year old cars, likely off lease.
Easy way to get a 30-40% discount on a low-mileage car with ~35k on the clock.
While true, it is hard to know how hard the lease driver has driven that vehicle. But I totally agree, you will find really good deals on them.
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While true, it is hard to know how hard the lease driver has driven that vehicle. But I totally agree, you will find really good deals on them.
That's pretty much true of any used cars. -- I've gotten a couple of CPO certified cars, too. IIRC, it was about $1500 to get an extended warranty that lasted until the car was 10 years old. Easy call.
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Not all of us have 50K under our couch cushions.
He never said he bought a new car, just that the last used care he bought was 1997. To each his own.
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They react poorly to being immersed in saltwater. Huh.
Battery technology will advance and likely take car of this.
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(https://images2.imgbox.com/70/15/qwRZUkiR_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/qwRZUkiR)
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It’s today’s Hummer … except uglier and less useful to haul stuff.
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Only Elon could create something that is a self-effacing status symbol
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It’s today’s Hummer … except uglier and less useful to haul stuff.
To each their own, but hummers are wonderful, hey?
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From the NYT's DealBook newsletter:
Hertz shares fell sharply yesterday after the car rental company announced it would cull 20,000 electric vehicles from its lineup — about a third of its global fleet.
The decision is a stunning reversal: The company had doubled down on E.V.s just two years ago. It also raises wider questions about whether the E.V. market is decelerating and whether the wider energy transition has hit a road bump.
Hertz trumpeted its move into E.V.s, saying consumers were eager to avoid rising gasoline prices. In 2021 and 2022, it announced deals to buy 340,000 E.V.s from Tesla, Polestar and G.M., saying it would electrify a quarter of its fleet by the end of this year.
The company now says it will buy more internal-combustion engine vehicles, citing weaker demand and higher operating costs for E.V.s. Hertz partly blamed Tesla, saying the move by Elon Musk’s carmaker to cut prices by 30 percent last year had hit the cars’ resale value. It added that Tesla was less willing than other carmakers to give Hertz volume discounts on replacement parts.
The irony: Tesla has been widely credited with jump-starting the E.V. market, forcing legacy carmakers to play catch-up.
The E.V. market isn’t dead, but there are signs of strain. Jeremy Robb, senior director of economic and industry insights at Cox Automotive, told The Times that almost 1.2 million E.V.s were sold in the U.S. last year, and sales were up 40 percent in the last three months of 2023 from the same period in 2022. But the pace of growth is slowing and some carmakers are pulling back on expanding production.
Hertz is still planning to electrify its fleet, according to its C.E.O., Stephen Scherr — but it might take a bit longer. “Tesla is among the best-selling cars in America, but it’s not yet the best rental car,” he told The Times. “Those two have not converged as quickly as many people, including ourselves, thought. But they will,” he added.
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From the NYT's DealBook newsletter:
Hertz shares fell sharply yesterday after the car rental company announced it would cull 20,000 electric vehicles from its lineup — about a third of its global fleet.
The decision is a stunning reversal: The company had doubled down on E.V.s just two years ago. It also raises wider questions about whether the E.V. market is decelerating and whether the wider energy transition has hit a road bump.
Hertz trumpeted its move into E.V.s, saying consumers were eager to avoid rising gasoline prices. In 2021 and 2022, it announced deals to buy 340,000 E.V.s from Tesla, Polestar and G.M., saying it would electrify a quarter of its fleet by the end of this year.
The company now says it will buy more internal-combustion engine vehicles, citing weaker demand and higher operating costs for E.V.s. Hertz partly blamed Tesla, saying the move by Elon Musk’s carmaker to cut prices by 30 percent last year had hit the cars’ resale value. It added that Tesla was less willing than other carmakers to give Hertz volume discounts on replacement parts.
The irony: Tesla has been widely credited with jump-starting the E.V. market, forcing legacy carmakers to play catch-up.
The E.V. market isn’t dead, but there are signs of strain. Jeremy Robb, senior director of economic and industry insights at Cox Automotive, told The Times that almost 1.2 million E.V.s were sold in the U.S. last year, and sales were up 40 percent in the last three months of 2023 from the same period in 2022. But the pace of growth is slowing and some carmakers are pulling back on expanding production.
Hertz is still planning to electrify its fleet, according to its C.E.O., Stephen Scherr — but it might take a bit longer. “Tesla is among the best-selling cars in America, but it’s not yet the best rental car,” he told The Times. “Those two have not converged as quickly as many people, including ourselves, thought. But they will,” he added.
I've heard people get an EV for their Hertz rental but then they ran into the problem that their hotel did not have charging. One person told me their hotel was listed as having charging, but it was like one unit and continuously occupied. The same person said it's not an issue when I'm just visiting people around Chicago for a few days (for example) then I can get by without charging, but longer than that it becomes an issue to plan charging into the business trip.
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I've heard people get an EV for their Hertz rental but then they ran into the problem that their hotel did not have charging. One person told me their hotel was listed as having charging, but it was like one unit and continuously occupied. The same person said it's not an issue when I'm just visiting people around Chicago for a few days (for example) then I can get by without charging, but longer than that it becomes an issue to plan charging into the business trip.
Yep. I've actually rented a Tesla for just the kind of short-term situation you describe and it went fine. We're going to Phoenix for a week and we'll be renting a regular ICE car; we'd probably be A-OK in an EV, but we simply don't want to have to worry about it.
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More on Hertz
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Just saw a report on NBC News with Lester Holt that said the mileage EVs get is routinely overstated and, under some conditions, by a lot. At 20 degrees or lower the real mileage is approximately 41% lower than advertised.
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Just saw a report on NBC News with Lester Holt that said the mileage EVs get is routinely overstated and, under some conditions, by a lot. At 20 degrees or lower the real mileage is approximately 41% lower than advertised.
Yup. Common knowledge in the EV world.
My EV6 range is listed 264 miles.
In town (<50mph), warm weather (>50F) - 300ish miles
Highway (>65mph), warm weather - 250ish miles
In town, cold weather (<32F) - 250ish
Highway, cold weather - 200ish
Any significant wind will noticeably affect range, depending on direction of wind and driving.
Any amount/type of precipitation will decrease range.
Towing significantly decreases range.
Speeds over 75mph dramatically decrease range.
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Yup. Common knowledge in the EV world.
My EV6 range is listed 264 miles.
In town (<50mph), warm weather (>50F) - 300ish miles
Highway (>65mph), warm weather - 250ish miles
In town, cold weather (<32F) - 250ish
Highway, cold weather - 200ish
Any significant wind will noticeably affect range, depending on direction of wind and driving.
Any amount/type of precipitation will decrease range.
Towing significantly decreases range.
Speeds over 75mph dramatically decrease range.
Soooooo, pretty much the same as an ICE vehicle then?
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Soooooo, pretty much the same as an ICE vehicle then?
Plenty of gas stations, but (despite a billion +allocated) not enough charging stations. 3 minutes to fill up in all weather. For a gas guzzler. An hour for an EV unless it’s really cold, then maybe much more. And 41% less mileage per full charge in cold weather? Not remotely the same. Soooo, dream on
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I would get a home charger if I had an EV. On the flip side, my block alone has had many people need jumps for their ICE vehicles this week. Going to get worse on Friday night into Saturday. Diesels need to be plugged in overnight in this weather, too.
Bitter cold snaps are bad for cars. Then again, so are hurricanes.
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Just saw a report on NBC News with Lester Holt that said the mileage EVs get is routinely overstated and, under some conditions, by a lot. At 20 degrees or lower the real mileage is approximately 41% lower than advertised.
ICE vehicles drop 20-30% of range in temps below 20F
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My daughter and son-in-law have a Tesla Model X. 99% of the time, they charge it at home. The only time they use charging stations is when they take a trip.
They live near us in Charlotte so don't experience extreme cold very often, but it does get chilly here on winter nights (sub-20 last night). Their range goes down mostly when they have longer stretches of fast driving.
FWIW, I'm not a big fan of the car. It's got lots of glitzy tech stuff but is surprisingly not very comfortable, and fit and finish is pretty poor for a car that listed over $100K when new. It's had to go to the shop several times and it's out of warranty, so repair bills have been high. But it is several years old now (2019 maybe?) and perhaps newer versions have addressed some of those issues.
I would consider an EV for my next purchase (and in fact did when car shopping a year ago - they simply weren't available), but I'd really want to spend time in whatever model I'd consider buying. My experience is mostly limited to my kid's Model X, and it hasn't left a great impression.
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Just saw a report on NBC News with Lester Holt that said the mileage EVs get is routinely overstated and, under some conditions, by a lot. At 20 degrees or lower the real mileage is approximately 41% lower than advertised.
41% is definitely not an "across the board" figure.
The bigger problem is currently poor infrastructure for DC charging for road trips.
As I do, charging at home nightly makes owning an EV simple. I never worry about range/charging.
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ICE vehicles drop 20-30% of range in temps below 20F
But there are plenty of gas stations and you can fill up in no time.
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But there are plenty of gas stations and you can fill up in no time.
As I said above, one of the current problems that comes with owning an EV is the lack of charging infrastructure for road trips (or those without home charging ability)
But with regard to the winter range loss? That's known to all current EV owners and should be known to any potential buyers. So, it really shouldn't be a headline
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Plenty of gas stations, but (despite a billion +allocated) not enough charging stations. 3 minutes to fill up in all weather. For a gas guzzler. An hour for an EV unless it’s really cold, then maybe much more. And 41% less mileage per full charge in cold weather? Not remotely the same. Soooo, dream on
Yes, the EVs should definitely get off your lawn
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Plenty of gas stations, but (despite a billion +allocated) not enough charging stations. 3 minutes to fill up in all weather. For a gas guzzler. An hour for an EV unless it’s really cold, then maybe much more. And 41% less mileage per full charge in cold weather? Not remotely the same. Soooo, dream on
I hate to tell you this but most people don't use a full tank of gas every day. Most EV owners charge their cars at night in their garage and that's enough to go for the day. EVs in their current state are commuter cars. But since you're not an idiot, you already knew that. So I guess I don't understand your point. No one is claiming that EVs in their current state are equivalent to ICEs.
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I hate to tell you this but most people don't use a full tank of gas every day. Most EV owners charge their cars at night in their garage and that's enough to go for the day. EVs in their current state are commuter cars. But since you're not an idiot, you already knew that. So I guess I don't understand your point. No one is claiming that EVs in their current state are equivalent to ICEs.
EVs are stupid. And super bad.
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If the Buffoon is pushin' 'em, I don't want it, aina?
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See, if you and Lenny are against them, I am suddenly much more interested.
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We got the VW EV this fall and I frankly love driving the thing. If we have a longer trip we'll take the good old gas car, but for getting around locally it's great. Haven't had the need to install a Level 2 charger at home yet, even with the cold snap.
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If the Buffoon is pushin' 'em, I don't want it, aina?
🤡
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I've heard people get an EV for their Hertz rental but then they ran into the problem that their hotel did not have charging. One person told me their hotel was listed as having charging, but it was like one unit and continuously occupied. The same person said it's not an issue when I'm just visiting people around Chicago for a few days (for example) then I can get by without charging, but longer than that it becomes an issue to plan charging into the business trip.
My experience (Page 1) was that Avis wanted a return 95 percent charged. In weather like Chicago has now, it takes forever to recharge. That's why Hertz is backing away from electrics. I have had a couple of opportunities since to rent electrics and turned every one down.
For you big electric advocates, I want ask where you think the electricity to power 150 million-plus new electric vehicles will come from? Do you believe for one minute that renewables and existing generating capacity can produce this level of incremental electric power? Absent renewables, we're back to coal, gas and nuclear, all of which have major drawbacks. I just don't buy the notion that we're going to come up with THAT much incremental electrical power in the next 20 to 25 years.
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🤡
Hey, whatever happened to Ziggy Piggy? Did I miss something?
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See, if you and Lenny are against them, I am suddenly much more interested.
Given 4qver’s Heisy-like prognostication, I’d start heavily investing in EV’s
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Leased a plug-in hybrid six months ago. (BMW xDrive50e) Installed 240v in my garage. Really liking it. Even during this frigid blast if I pre-condition it before I head out in the morning I get a 36 mile range (at 85% charge) which covers most of my business week (per day) driving.
And then long weekend trips no matta.
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Hey, whatever happened to Ziggy Piggy? Did I miss something?
Last posted on October 2. Last active on 12/19. It is my opinion he got fed up and walked away.
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My experience (Page 1) was that Avis wanted a return 95 percent charged. In weather like Chicago has now, it takes forever to recharge. That's why Hertz is backing away from electrics. I have had a couple of opportunities since to rent electrics and turned every one down.
For you big electric advocates, I want ask where you think the electricity to power 150 million-plus new electric vehicles will come from? Do you believe for one minute that renewables and existing generating capacity can produce this level of incremental electric power? Absent renewables, we're back to coal, gas and nuclear, all of which have major drawbacks. I just don't buy the notion that we're going to come up with THAT much incremental electrical power in the next 20 to 25 years.
-- I made a post that fully explained the Hertz situation a bit ago. https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=64282.msg1608863#msg1608863
-- Assuming one is using a "modern" EV, it will have ability to precondition a battery before DC fast charging. Therefore, it should never take "forever" to recharge, even to 100%
-- Are there "big electric advocates" here?
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Last posted on October 2. Last active on 12/19. It is my opinion he got fed up and walked away.
Shame.
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We have all felt that way. I hope he is well.
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If the Buffoon is pushin' 'em, I don't want it, aina?
Actually, the antisemite Elon Musk is pushing them.
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Interesting article by Newsweek.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/with-electric-car-credits-biden-picks-green-new-deal-over-seniors-opinion/ar-AA1mOBPu
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Interesting article by Newsweek.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/with-electric-car-credits-biden-picks-green-new-deal-over-seniors-opinion/ar-AA1mOBPu
I think you mean, "Interesting opinion piece written by a former Trump advisor who recently worked on the DeSantis campaign".
If you find that sort of drivel interesting.
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Interesting article by Newsweek.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/with-electric-car-credits-biden-picks-green-new-deal-over-seniors-opinion/ar-AA1mOBPu
Wow. This article is terrible.
The author wants the reader to sincerely believe that in the richest nation in the history of the planet we can't do 2 things at once?
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Interesting article by Newsweek.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/with-electric-car-credits-biden-picks-green-new-deal-over-seniors-opinion/ar-AA1mOBPu
Oy. The original WSJ article was written by Mark Merritt of the "Proactive Strategies Group." Of course when you Google him up, you will find that he is basically a pharmeceutical lobbyist.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-merritt-0a16b0a0/
Regardless, the nature of his argument is ridiculous. Because both the Medicare savings and the EV are in the same bill, he is treating them as part of the same program. Of course this doesn't make any sense. Medicare savings is good for Medicare overall. Are the EV subsidies good? Who knows. But they aren't related programs.
In other words, stop falling for dumb narratives by an industry that was allowed to charge Medicare whatever it wanted because the federal government wasn't allowed to negotiate with them - like any other insurance company is.
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Actually, the antisemite Elon Musk is pushing them.
He's also a woke tree-hugger ... who disdains woke tree-huggers.
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This is our Ioniq's 2nd winter. On the weeks where we've had single digit or negative temps, we've lost 80-100 mi of range. Can survive for most daily needs and work trips to CHI suburbs but it's definitely not our road trip car and never will be
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This is our Ioniq's 2nd winter. On the weeks where we've had single digit or negative temps, we've lost 80-100 mi of range. Can survive for most daily needs and work trips to CHI suburbs but it's definitely not our road trip car and never will be
Ioniq 5, I assume?
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Ioniq 5, I assume?
Yes
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Ford cuts F-150 EV production again
https://seekingalpha.com/news/4056381-ford-cuts-lightning-production-again-shifts-resources-bronco-ranger-line
Ford (NYSE:F) continues its pivot away from electric vehicles as the carmaker said it will ramp up manufacture of its gas-powered Bronco and Ranger line and reduce production of the F-150 Lightning EV.
To accommodate the increased production, Ford (F) is adding a third crew at the Michigan assembly plant that will consist of 900 new hires and 700 employees from the Rouge EV Complex in Dearborn currently producing the F-150 Lightning.
When Lightning was announced several years back, I was really excited about its prospects. I don't need a pickup, but I still considered putting down a deposit because it looked like it was gonna be such a great product.
But it has turned out to be nothing but empty promises.
Ford had a great opportunity to own the EV truck market. No commercial-use truck driver wants the monstrosity that Musk is marketing (and also has had tons of trouble producing). Ford would have dominated, but they couldn't get their act together.
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There is a Sheila Hamp, Brad Holmes, Dan Campbell joke in there somewhere.
Ford screwed up a number of opportunities. The F-150, Mach-E, slow rollouts of the Bronco and Bronco Sport, not offering AWD on the Maverick hybrid. Hampered by quality issues, bad home charging partnerships, etc. If they had gotten those things right, they would be far ahead of the game right now.
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There is a Sheila Hamp, Brad Holmes, Dan Campbell joke in there somewhere.
Ford screwed up a number of opportunities. The F-150, Mach-E, slow rollouts of the Bronco and Bronco Sport, not offering AWD on the Maverick hybrid. Hampered by quality issues, bad home charging partnerships, etc. If they had gotten those things right, they would be far ahead of the game right now.
Agreed on all points. The Maverick was such an in-demand truck too.
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Ford cuts F-150 EV production again
https://seekingalpha.com/news/4056381-ford-cuts-lightning-production-again-shifts-resources-bronco-ranger-line
Ford (NYSE:F) continues its pivot away from electric vehicles as the carmaker said it will ramp up manufacture of its gas-powered Bronco and Ranger line and reduce production of the F-150 Lightning EV.
To accommodate the increased production, Ford (F) is adding a third crew at the Michigan assembly plant that will consist of 900 new hires and 700 employees from the Rouge EV Complex in Dearborn currently producing the F-150 Lightning.
When Lightning was announced several years back, I was really excited about its prospects. I don't need a pickup, but I still considered putting down a deposit because it looked like it was gonna be such a great product.
But it has turned out to be nothing but empty promises.
Ford had a great opportunity to own the EV truck market. No commercial-use truck driver wants the monstrosity that Musk is marketing (and also has had tons of trouble producing). Ford would have dominated, but they couldn't get their act together.
What are/were the empty promises?
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Agreed on all points. The Maverick was such an in-demand truck too.
The Maverick is still and in-demand truck. They can't/won't make enough. Likely because the margins aren't as high as the 150
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The Maverick is still and in-demand truck. They can't/won't make enough. Likely because the margins aren't as high as the 150
Yeah, but I'm sure it'd be even more in demand with AWD. I know there were waiting lists around here for them.
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What are/were the empty promises?
Just about everything associated with the truck.
When it would be available, how much it would cost, what its range would be, how much it could tow, etc etc etc.
And others brought up Maverick. Another unfortunate Ford disappointment.
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-- I made a post that fully explained the Hertz situation a bit ago. https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=64282.msg1608863#msg1608863
-- Assuming one is using a "modern" EV, it will have ability to precondition a battery before DC fast charging. Therefore, it should never take "forever" to recharge, even to 100%
-- Are there "big electric advocates" here?
I don’t know that I’m an “advocate” but my experience with Teslas has been amazing. Can only compare it to the iPhones when they came out. Blown away both times. And how often do you buy something that keeps getting better and better for free? Continues to amaze - this should be the new standard for cars.
I don’t post often because there is just so much silly misinformation in this threads, and I don’t get into meaningless debates on the internet. And to correct some of the info takes too long, like this post.
But my opinion:
Ev’s save a lot of time. No stops at gas stations - that actually take about 10 minutes - pull off road get to station, get in position, fuss with cards, wait, get back on road. Beyond annoying when the weather is bad. Versus seconds to step out of car and plug in at home. I think people miss that you save time with an EV if that is a concern.
Travel long distances: charge times of an hour As someone said above. No, never. Superchargers. By the time I go to the bathroom I rarely wait at all and if I do not more than 5 minutes. Time bathroom breaks with charging. I’m stopping every couple of hours anyway.
Cold weather mileage could improve. Just like gas cars. And they have with a lot of models using heat pumps. Is a negative of EV when it gets really cold. Yet teslas are best selling car in some very cold countries like Sweden.
If one does long trips often, and doesn’t stop for breaks for bathrooms often, a gas vehicle would be better for them.
I think of the following:
1980s: Japanese cars come to America, better quality and gas mileage. The big 3 says they are junk, rice burners, etc. we know the opposite was true. Big 3 had to catch up on quality and really never had.
2000s: hybrids from Toyota. Big 3 misinformation campaigns. Batteries won’t last. Have to replace at 100k miles etc. literally articles that say a hummer is more efficient and environmentally friendly than a Prius (to get result they don’t say they assumed the Prius is junked at 100k miles the hummer gets 250k). We know the opposite is true. People still fear hybrids batteries will need to be replaced. And only ford domestically has decent hybrids. Again US behind.
Ev’s: Big 3 media campaigns trash them. Then they think they can make them and stop trashing them and promote them. Now they realize they can’t make them profitably and are too far behind. The trashing will start again.
EV sales are likely to slowly improve until about 2025-2026 when the next wave of cheaper EVs hit and uptrend will continue when they are cheaper than gas cars without subsidies. Also people are adopting hybrids more, and they will realize how much nicer they are with start stop engines, that batteries last, breaks don’t have to be replaced etc.
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I have no doubt that EVs will improve range, get less expensive and have better charging infrastructure in the future. But for how we use our vehicles, it’s just not for us quite yet.
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I saw this read this week. Overview of what's going on on next gen batteries and EV development.
https://www.teslarati.com/volkswagen-solid-state-ev-batteries-increased-range/amp/
Volkswagen and others look to solid-state EV batteries for increased range
A number of automakers are looking to build future electric vehicles (EVs) with solid-state batteries, which are expected to unlock increased energy density, faster charging, and crucially, longer driving ranges. With Tesla as the outlier in that it hasn’t announced any plans to develop solid-state batteries, automakers including Volkswagen, Toyota, Honda, and many more have made investments in the sector, although products with the tech have yet to arrive.
As just one example, the U.S. startup company QuantumScape has landed partnerships with Volkswagen and at least six other automakers, saying its anode-less cell design can increase EV range from 350 miles to 400 or 500 miles (via Reuters). The figure represents a margin increase of 14 to 43 percent—though that’s down from prior estimates shared by the company of 50 to 80 percent.
Still, QuantumScape shared initial prototypes with Volkswagen in 2022, and the automaker said the solid-state battery samples could be used in an EV for up to 500,000 miles without any degradation and could be charged to 80 percent in 15 minutes.
Another example includes Toyota, which said last June that it reached a breakthrough in solid-state battery tech that it hoped would eventually let it make EVs with over 700 miles of range and charging times of just 10 minutes.
Despite this, the automaker said in November that it expects to produce more hydrogen-powered vehicles than solid-state EVs in 2030, highlighting the company’s continued focus on developing hydrogen fuel cell technology.
Honda is looking to add a test production line for solid-state batteries as soon as 2024, and the automaker expects to debut EVs with them by the latter part of this decade. In addition, the company invested in SES AI, with which the company hopes to jointly develop solid-state EV batteries.
Nissan also plans to debut an EV with pure solid-state batteries, which the automaker hopes to develop in-house and debut in EVs by 2028.
The list of companies investing in solid-state tech goes on, and it includes several automakers and suppliers such as Nio, BMW, CATL, U.S. startup Solid Power, LG Energy Solution, SK On, and still many more.
However, even with the many investments and support from several automakers looking to make EVs more efficient, it appears that any solid-state EVs are still years away.
What are your thoughts? Let me know at zach@teslarati.com, find me on X at @zacharyvisconti, or send your tips to us at tips@teslarati.com.
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Another negative is those without home charging really should think twice before going ev. Charging on the go costs more. The savings are not as great and would be a pain without home charging.
Plenty of battery developments. The incremental changes are also large over time. I can see a future with cheaper smaller batteries, less range, but cheaper EVs with plenty of charging options.
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I'd say there's no downside to waiting a bit if you're on the fence. Battery tech will continue to explode, continued economies of scale etc etc.
Agree with above - if you don't have a home charger, an EV would be a pain in the ass. The charging stations are all different ecosystems and some states (Wisconsin) is a wasteland. Plus the public stations are prone to breakdowns and haven't scaled with EV demand.
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The EV story is about 3 chapters in to book 1 of what will be an 8 volume saga. I believe they will be the dominant personal conveyance one day. I do not believe the infrastructure or battery technology will be in place to meet the 2035 date so many have aimed for. But I believe it is a worthy goal, nonetheless.
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The EV story is about 3 chapters in to book 1 of what will be an 8 volume saga. I believe they will be the dominant personal conveyance one day. I do not believe the infrastructure or battery technology will be in place to meet the 2035 date so many have aimed for. But I believe it is a worthy goal, nonetheless.
Infrastructure in the US - whether new development (electric grid capacity for EVs) or old maintenance (roads, bridges, sewer/water, in-place electric) - is so so so bad. Our nation should be ashamed
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The EV story is about 3 chapters in to book 1 of what will be an 8 volume saga. I believe they will be the dominant personal conveyance one day. I do not believe the infrastructure or battery technology will be in place to meet the 2035 date so many have aimed for. But I believe it is a worthy goal, nonetheless.
I believe I've typed here before but the Battery and EV Expos I regularly attend in Detroit and Stuttgart, what I always hear is "Remember, EVs are only at the Ford Model T stage compared to ICEs."
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I believe I've typed here before but the Battery and EV Expos I regularly attend in Detroit and Stuttgart, what I always hear is "Remember, EVs are only at the Ford Model T stage compared to ICEs."
Future generations won’t be beholden to driving ICEs either
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Ford Lightning production info:
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Ford Lightning production info:
Thanks for that, jes. Makes sense.
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Ford Lightning production info:
Here's an interesting EV take on Seeking Alpha, headlined: Rivian: Thank You, Ford!
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4664025-rivian-thank-you-ford?mailingid=34083904&messageid=must_reads&serial=34083904.10508&utm_campaign=Must%2BReads%2Brecurring%2B2024-01-22&utm_content=seeking_alpha&utm_medium=email&utm_source=seeking_alpha&utm_term=must_reads
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I saw this read this week. Overview of what's going on on next gen batteries and EV development.
https://www.teslarati.com/volkswagen-solid-state-ev-batteries-increased-range/amp/
Volkswagen and others look to solid-state EV batteries for increased range
A number of automakers are looking to build future electric vehicles (EVs) with solid-state batteries, which are expected to unlock increased energy density, faster charging, and crucially, longer driving ranges. With Tesla as the outlier in that it hasn’t announced any plans to develop solid-state batteries, automakers including Volkswagen, Toyota, Honda, and many more have made investments in the sector, although products with the tech have yet to arrive.
As just one example, the U.S. startup company QuantumScape has landed partnerships with Volkswagen and at least six other automakers, saying its anode-less cell design can increase EV range from 350 miles to 400 or 500 miles (via Reuters). The figure represents a margin increase of 14 to 43 percent—though that’s down from prior estimates shared by the company of 50 to 80 percent.
Still, QuantumScape shared initial prototypes with Volkswagen in 2022, and the automaker said the solid-state battery samples could be used in an EV for up to 500,000 miles without any degradation and could be charged to 80 percent in 15 minutes.
Another example includes Toyota, which said last June that it reached a breakthrough in solid-state battery tech that it hoped would eventually let it make EVs with over 700 miles of range and charging times of just 10 minutes.
Despite this, the automaker said in November that it expects to produce more hydrogen-powered vehicles than solid-state EVs in 2030, highlighting the company’s continued focus on developing hydrogen fuel cell technology.
Honda is looking to add a test production line for solid-state batteries as soon as 2024, and the automaker expects to debut EVs with them by the latter part of this decade. In addition, the company invested in SES AI, with which the company hopes to jointly develop solid-state EV batteries.
Nissan also plans to debut an EV with pure solid-state batteries, which the automaker hopes to develop in-house and debut in EVs by 2028.
The list of companies investing in solid-state tech goes on, and it includes several automakers and suppliers such as Nio, BMW, CATL, U.S. startup Solid Power, LG Energy Solution, SK On, and still many more.
However, even with the many investments and support from several automakers looking to make EVs more efficient, it appears that any solid-state EVs are still years away.
What are your thoughts? Let me know at zach@teslarati.com, find me on X at @zacharyvisconti, or send your tips to us at tips@teslarati.com.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6fSOJgcxwI
Singing a different tune now.
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Toyota has been fighting against BEVs forever.
Nothing to see here.
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Efficiency.
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/02/the-us-added-1-2-million-evs-to-the-grid-last-year-electricity-use-went-down/amp/
The US Added 1.2 Million EVs To The Grid Last Year, & Electricity Use Went Down
Article continues
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This all adds up. With the 1% that electricity production declined in 2023, we could have added something like another 10 million EVs to the grid last year and our overall electricity use would still have remained the same.
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Article continues
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From the WSJ:
Car companies that invested big in EVs have realized over the past six months that car buyers were more discerning than expected. Now automakers are delaying or downsizing some projects. Many drivers have been reluctant to pay more for EVs that come with worries about battery range, charging times and repair costs, according to dealers and surveys. Plus, high interest rates meant heftier monthly payments on already pricey EVs. Government regulations, corporate climate goals, the rise of Chinese EV makers and Tesla’s high stock valuation had fueled the automakers’ optimism—until the wave of early adopters receded.
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From the WSJ:
Car companies that invested big in EVs have realized over the past six months that car buyers were more discerning than expected. Now automakers are delaying or downsizing some projects. Many drivers have been reluctant to pay more for EVs that come with worries about battery range, charging times and repair costs, according to dealers and surveys. Plus, high interest rates meant heftier monthly payments on already pricey EVs. Government regulations, corporate climate goals, the rise of Chinese EV makers and Tesla’s high stock valuation had fueled the automakers’ optimism—until the wave of early adopters receded.
I was just reading my latest EV trade magazine, Charged. I can't find the articles online, only the digital edition of the latest magazine.
Three short reads that I thought seemed to address Scoop regular subjects of comment.
https://issuu.com/chargedevs/docs/iss_66_all
Page 10 Publisher's Note: Reports of the death of EVs have been greatly exaggerated by Christian Ruoff (Publisher)
Page 36 Electric Vehicle Containment Unit can squelch EV fires even as they're still burning
Page 82 Charging: Help is on the way by Charles Morris
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It has been touched on that we are currently in the Model T era of EV's. I firmly believe that they are the future. I also firmly believe that future is farther away than the optimistic believe.
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From the WSJ:
Car companies that invested big in EVs have realized over the past six months that car buyers were more discerning than expected. Now automakers are delaying or downsizing some projects. Many drivers have been reluctant to pay more for EVs that come with worries about battery range, charging times and repair costs, according to dealers and surveys. Plus, high interest rates meant heftier monthly payments on already pricey EVs. Government regulations, corporate climate goals, the rise of Chinese EV makers and Tesla’s high stock valuation had fueled the automakers’ optimism—until the wave of early adopters receded.
This is terrible journalism
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This is terrible journalism
I was just the messenger. I don't own an EV and I haven't researched them thoroughly. Which part of it is terrible and/or inaccurate, jes?
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I was just the messenger. I don't own an EV and I haven't researched them thoroughly. Which part of it is terrible and/or inaccurate, jes?
The short-ish answer is that EVs continue to sell in record numbers for nearly every manufacturer every quarter/year. BUT, they're selling slightly less than what the manufacturers initially told their shareholders to expect.
So these articles are written to quell shareholder expectations and deflect blame from the manufacturers themselves
Though I believe any shortages of sales are due to manufacturers having a rough time with supply chains and factory conversion + dealers being reluctant to get into EV selling.
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Didn't Hertz just dispose of thousands of EVs because no demand from renters.. Friend of mine met me with the rental car and said he passed because he didn't know where or how to recharge and didn't want to search on the way back to the airport .
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Didn't Hertz just dispose of thousands of EVs because no demand from renters.. Friend of mine met me with the rental car and said he passed because he didn't know where or how to recharge and didn't want to search on the way back to the airport .
No. Much more to the story.
https://www.facebook.com/100044527030149/posts/940986447395581/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v
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The short-ish answer is that EVs continue to sell in record numbers for nearly every manufacturer every quarter/year. BUT, they're selling slightly less than what the manufacturers initially told their shareholders to expect.
So these articles are written to quell shareholder expectations and deflect blame from the manufacturers themselves
Though I believe any shortages of sales are due to manufacturers having a rough time with supply chains and factory conversion + dealers being reluctant to get into EV selling.
Thanks for the response, jes.
I definitely want EVs to succeed wildly, and to just get better and better, and greener and greener.
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Didn't Hertz just dispose of thousands of EVs because no demand from renters.. Friend of mine met me with the rental car and said he passed because he didn't know where or how to recharge and didn't want to search on the way back to the airport .
I would also say that a renter may not want to figure out the ecosystem (which is not anywhere near saturation right now and is the single biggest problem imo) when already traveling in a new or less familiar place
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More mess-ups with the Ford Lightning. What a shyteshow they've had pretty much right from the start. Blew their golden opportunity.
https://seekingalpha.com/news/4071374-ford-halts-shipments-of-electric-f-150-truck-due-to-quality-issue
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Ford EV sales up 80% over the same month 2023.
Customer interest is there
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Here's the Seeking Alpha article, jes:
The electric vehicle sector started the week in reverse, led by large drops for Chinese electric vehicle makers Li Auto (NASDAQ:LI) -12.47%, XPeng (NYSE:XPEV) -8.15%, and NIO (NIO) -7.05%. The sector may be reacting to poor EV production data out of China, although analysts have warned the comparisons to a year ago are impacted by the timing of the Chinese New Year. Another factor may be aggressive EV pricing from BYD Company (OTCPK:BYDDF) that fell below market expectations and could indicate the pricing war will continue.
The U.S. pure-play EV sector was also reeling, with Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) down 6.44%, Lucid Group (LCID) 6.30% lower, Canoo (GOEV) down 5.16%, and Rivian Automotive (RIVN) showing a 5.09% drop. For comparison, the Nasdaq 100 was only down 0.15% at 12:29 p.m.
Other EV-related decliners included Hyliion Holdings (HYLN) -8.08%, Workhorse Group (WKHS) -8.05%, Fisker (FSR) -5.78%, and Blink Charging (BLNK) -3.96%.
While investor sentiment was poor on Monday for the pure EV sector, Detroit automakers Ford Motor (F) +4.33% and General Motors (GM) +1.01% were in positive territory for the session. Earlier in the day, Ford (F) reported unit sales rose 10.5% year-over-year in February to 174,192. Internal combustion unit sales were up 7.5%, while electric vehicle unit sales were 81% higher to 3,523 and hybrid vehicle unit sales rose 32% to 12,045. SUVs sales rose 24% during the quarter, while truck sales showed just a 1.4% gain. Ford Escape and Ford Edge sales both more than doubled during the month due to the timing of model introductions. Ford brand sales rose 9.4% during the quarter, while Lincoln brand sales jumped 38%.
Ford (F) and General Motors (GM) have pulled back from their aggressive electric vehicle timeline targets.
So although EV sales gained more by percentage, Ford's gain in actual number of vehicles sold was much lower for EVs (1,577) than for ICE vehicles (12,025) or hybrids (2,920).
Doesn't mean there's no excitement or interest in Ford EVs, just that the numbers were so low in February 2023 that a huge percentage jump doesn't mean much in actual additional EV sales. Not yet, anyway.
I actually was shopping hard for a new car in February 2023 and was hoping to have some EVs to choose from. But there were just about none available, and the few I found - from Ford and others - had $5,000 or more tacked onto the sticker price. I ended up buying a hybrid. Maybe as inventory grows (especially non-Tesla inventory) and as prices level off, it will create significantly more sales.
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Great.
The customer interest is there for Ford and every other manufacturer.
The pricing might not be.
Headlines that cite "lack of demand" for EVs is bs. It's not lack of demand. It's lack of demand for expensive EVs.
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Infrastructure in the US - whether new development (electric grid capacity for EVs) or old maintenance (roads, bridges, sewer/water, in-place electric) - is so so so bad. Our nation should be ashamed
This as the biggest problems with EVs. I understand that EVs will become more efficient and charges last longer as time moves forward.
What I don't currently understand is from where will we produce the electricity to recharge 150 million or more electric vehicles that replace current gasoline or diesel fueled vehicles.
A new power plant, start to finish, may take between 10 and 20 years from concept to operation. The design, permits, construction and operating permits all take time. Short end may be for natural gas fired plants and the long end probably is nuclear. This time frame may be exacerbated by countless protests from folks who think we can power a nation with rooftop solar.
So if we eventually replace 150 million onboard hydrocarbon powered vehicles with EVs, we're going to need a whole heaping bunch of new power plants that can produce terawatts of incremental electricity. Or else we end up like California -- power brownouts and blackouts in peak use months.
The other interesting question: As most of us who convert to EVs establish in-house, Phase II vehicle chargers (potentially two per home), will your's and my local utility be up to the challenge. And, whether regulators will allow utilities to adjust rates to cover the incremental capital costs associated with the large scale new electric infrastructure that has to be coming?
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This as the biggest problems with EVs. I understand that EVs will become more efficient and charges last longer as time moves forward.
What I don't currently understand is from where will we produce the electricity to recharge 150 million or more electric vehicles that replace current gasoline or diesel fueled vehicles.
A new power plant, start to finish, may take between 10 and 20 years from concept to operation. The design, permits, construction and operating permits all take time. Short end may be for natural gas fired plants and the long end probably is nuclear. This time frame may be exacerbated by countless protests from folks who think we can power a nation with rooftop solar.
So if we eventually replace 150 million onboard hydrocarbon powered vehicles with EVs, we're going to need a whole heaping bunch of new power plants that can produce terawatts of incremental electricity. Or else we end up like California -- power brownouts and blackouts in peak use months.
The other interesting question: As most of us who convert to EVs establish in-house, Phase II vehicle chargers (potentially two per home), will your's and my local utility be up to the challenge. And, whether regulators will allow utilities to adjust rates to cover the incremental capital costs associated with the large scale new electric infrastructure that has to be coming?
This really isn't a problem. We are producing more electricity all of the time and will have no problem ramping up by the time EVs are more universal.
Getting that electricity to the consumer, and being able to quickly charge your car, are far more significant issues.
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This as the biggest problems with EVs. I understand that EVs will become more efficient and charges last longer as time moves forward.
What I don't currently understand is from where will we produce the electricity to recharge 150 million or more electric vehicles that replace current gasoline or diesel fueled vehicles.
A new power plant, start to finish, may take between 10 and 20 years from concept to operation. The design, permits, construction and operating permits all take time. Short end may be for natural gas fired plants and the long end probably is nuclear. This time frame may be exacerbated by countless protests from folks who think we can power a nation with rooftop solar.
So if we eventually replace 150 million onboard hydrocarbon powered vehicles with EVs, we're going to need a whole heaping bunch of new power plants that can produce terawatts of incremental electricity. Or else we end up like California -- power brownouts and blackouts in peak use months.
The other interesting question: As most of us who convert to EVs establish in-house, Phase II vehicle chargers (potentially two per home), will your's and my local utility be up to the challenge. And, whether regulators will allow utilities to adjust rates to cover the incremental capital costs associated with the large scale new electric infrastructure that has to be coming?
I posted this in this thread back on Feb 4. Here's why what you said will never be a problem.
Efficiency.
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/02/the-us-added-1-2-million-evs-to-the-grid-last-year-electricity-use-went-down/amp/
The US Added 1.2 Million EVs To The Grid Last Year, & Electricity Use Went Down
Article continues
....................
This all adds up. With the 1% that electricity production declined in 2023, we could have added something like another 10 million EVs to the grid last year and our overall electricity use would still have remained the same.
..................
Article continues
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I posted this in this thread back on Feb 4. Here's why what you said will never be a problem.
Efficiency.
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/02/the-us-added-1-2-million-evs-to-the-grid-last-year-electricity-use-went-down/amp/
The US Added 1.2 Million EVs To The Grid Last Year, & Electricity Use Went Down
Article continues
....................
This all adds up. With the 1% that electricity production declined in 2023, we could have added something like another 10 million EVs to the grid last year and our overall electricity use would still have remained the same.
..................
Article continues
1.2 million is a whole lot less than the 200 million-plus private passenger cars that, at a minimum, will be tapping into the grid every night, growing to 300 million over time.
Lest you think I'm nuts, California has outlawed sale of new internal combustion engines by 2035. That's 11 years from now. At last count, there are about 32 million or so internal combustion engines on California's roadways today. (all of which converge on the 405 near Los Angeles at 4:30 p.m.) California already is having brown-outs and black-outs of electric power during peak usage periods.
OK, it won't all happen at once, but by 2040, most of California will be electric if the law remains. The state has phased out all but one of its nuclear power plants and getting a fossil fuel plant approved in California is about as easy as Satan getting into the Kingdom of Heaven. So I ask again, where's the power coming from?
In the United States in 2022, there were 278,870,463 registered personal and commercial vehicles. Are you willing to bet your personal freedom and the freedom of movement you now have that the electric grid as it stands today can handle the demand?
Are you willing to bet that the free movement of goods and services in the United States won't be affected by the ability of the electric grid to handle nearly 300 million vehicles? Will you get food delivery to your grocery store? Or pharmaceutical delivery to your drug store using the existing electrical grid?
Note: Even if you want to flip railroads from diesel to all-electric power, that's going to take a generation or more, and that's ambitious. Look it how long it took Amtrak to electrify the NEC from New Haven to Boston!
Sorry gang... until you address the question of massive increases in electric power generation, EVs are nothing more than a novelty.
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Has this argument been made when large numbers of homes or appliances or office buildings, etc etc, were going to be hooked up to the grid?
Anti-EV propaganda argument
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<sigh> No, the grid is not the problem. Perhaps do a little research on the topic instead of doing math on the back of a napkin.
https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/blog-can-the-grid-handle-evs-yes/
Summary
Electrifying the entire US light-duty vehicle fleet by 2050 will require less than 1% growth per year in overall electricity generation. Furthermore, complying with the EPA’s latest GHG standards for light duty vehicles will create only a 6% increase in electricity demand by the end of 2032. So, the answer is yes—the grid can absolutely handle all those EVs.
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Anti-EV propaganda argument
I generally agree, my quick, back of the website (who writes on napkins anymore?) calculations say that US can currently produce twice+ as much electricity as it uses. Of course, during peak times that's all being used, but in off-peak, there's plenty of capacity.
Also, new capacity coming on line every year ~ 1,300,000 MW now (2023), another 466,000 MW under development. Plus lots of storage solutions in development for storing excess (esp solar).
Aso, as MUFIC posted, many households and businesses are continuing to upgrade things to use less. Anecdotal examples, In my previous house I upgraded an electric water heater to a heat pump. Electric use was cut almost in half. In my current house, Last winter I heated primarily with baseboard heaters and fireplaces. Last May I put in a couple cold climate heat pumps. I'm now keeping my house warmer, and using about 17% less electric.
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I generally agree, my quick, back of the website (who writes on napkins anymore?) calculations say that US can currently produce twice+ as much electricity as it uses. Of course, during peak times that's all being used, but in off-peak, there's plenty of capacity.
Also, new capacity coming on line every year ~ 1,300,000 MW now (2023), another 466,000 MW under development. Plus lots of storage solutions in development for storing excess (esp solar).
Aso, as MUFIC posted, many households and businesses are continuing to upgrade things to use less. Anecdotal examples, In my previous house I upgraded an electric water heater to a heat pump. Electric use was cut almost in half. In my current house, Last winter I heated primarily with baseboard heaters and fireplaces. Last May I put in a couple cold climate heat pumps. I'm now keeping my house warmer, and using about 17% less electric.
Brother Rocky,
I get where you're coming from. I also see what's happened in California and brown-outs and black-outs. I want to think you're right but my "spidie senses" disagree. For one thing, our population keeps growing. Maybe I've been living in Florida too long, but new residential developments in my county alone are lending a new meaning to "drain the swamps!" That takes electricity and while our local utility, Florida Power, is staying on top of things, add 20 million electric vehicles and not even they can keep up!
In Chicago, the story went that a small trucking firm (about 100 tractors) near Joliet got the idea of switching to EV Tractors. They confidently called Commonwealth Edison, the local utility, and talked inspiringly of installing an electric recharging capability in their yard. Com-Ed called them back right away and screamed "NO" and politely told them the power necessary to recharge their fleet is about the same as is necessary to power Joliet on an average day.
Maybe in time we'll get there. But with every environmentalist screaming about any fossil fuel based electrical generators, problems with nuclear (almost no new nuclear plants started since 1979) and a belief that somehow rooftop solar will solve the country's electrical need, we're a long way from meeting the need. That said, I'm a believer in installing solar where it works. We have some of the biggest solar farms in the United States in St. Lucie County, FL, but even in the Sunshine State, the amount of water in the air severely reduces the sun's efficiency.
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Brother Rocky,
I get where you're coming from. I also see what's happened in California and brown-outs and black-outs. I want to think you're right but my "spidie senses" disagree.
::)
All about the feelings I guess.
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Maybe in time we'll get there.
Honestly, I think that's the key. I don't know if you drive an EV, but many don't. Those that don't may switch over sometime in the next decade, but it certainly won't be all at once. ICE's will still be around for a long time, regardless of what Cali says - have you not met the oil lobby? ;)
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Brother Rocky,
In Chicago, the story went that a small trucking firm (about 100 tractors) near Joliet got the idea of switching to EV Tractors. They confidently called Commonwealth Edison, the local utility, and talked inspiringly of installing an electric recharging capability in their yard. Com-Ed called them back right away and screamed "NO" and politely told them the power necessary to recharge their fleet is about the same as is necessary to power Joliet on an average day.
And multiple fire marshals in rural Illinois/Indiana will not let our electric fleet vehicles park inside the O&M garages because of "Fire risk".
It's not always based on reality. Charging 100 EV tractors do not take up the same electricity as a city of 150k plus people. At risk of the back of the hand math we just shot down, even if you are cycling tractors for multiple a day recharges, it still doesn't come close. Com-Ed was either lying or miscalculating. If you charged your entire fleet 4 times in a day you would MAYBE come close to the MWs to be able to hit 10%. But I don't think that is even possible, timewise.
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Facebook math.
EVs will become the dominant choice. Eventually.
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And multiple fire marshals in rural Illinois/Indiana will not let our electric fleet vehicles park inside the O&M garages because of "Fire risk".
This is an interesting one to me. Batty charging always has some risk of starting a fire - the bigger the battery, the bigger the fire. And I know the argument is EVs cause less fires than ICE's. However, ICE's don't usually catch fire sitting in your garage - and the batteries in them aren't charging while sitting in your garage.
Perhaps it's irrational fear, but I'd hate to lose my house (or business) charging an EV. Especially since most of them would smolder for hours with virtually no way to put them out. Insurance companies are likely to charge extra for this too. There may be a technical solution for this that isn't common yet. Solid state batteries? I'm not sure they're immune to fire completely either (but should be less).
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I don't know how related this is but a recent story about a significant project by WE Energies.
We Energies expects to spend about $335 million to build electric distribution infrastructure to serve Microsoft's data center development in Mount Pleasant. (https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/business/energy/2024/03/04/we-energies-to-spend-335-million-on-microsoft-electric-power-project/72789414007/)
According to the Dept. of Energy data centers consume up to 50 times the energy of a similarly sized-office space and account for about 2 percent of all electricity use in the U.S.
damn scoop formatting
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This is an interesting one to me. Batty charging always has some risk of starting a fire - the bigger the battery, the bigger the fire. And I know the argument is EVs cause less fires than ICE's. However, ICE's don't usually catch fire sitting in your garage - and the batteries in them aren't charging while sitting in your garage.
Perhaps it's irrational fear, but I'd hate to lose my house (or business) charging an EV. Especially since most of them would smolder for hours with virtually no way to put them out. Insurance companies are likely to charge extra for this too. There may be a technical solution for this that isn't common yet. Solid state batteries? I'm not sure they're immune to fire completely either (but should be less).
All right, I'll tell you why I'd buy an EV (I don't have one). If I can buy one that I can reserve the polarity and use it when the power goes off to run my house -- that Florida phenomenon called "Hurricanes" is real -- then OK, sold!
My house, by the way, is compliant with post-Homestead Florida building codes. Reinforced concrete walls, 150 mile-an-hour impact resistant windows. About the only burnable thing in here is the furnishings and the drywall!
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No electical device and no internal combustion engine is completely 'immune' from catching fire. Right now, extinguishing an EV fire is difficult.
Ft. Myers had some poor experiences with EV fires after their hurricane. Submersion in salt water is bad for electronics.
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Com-Ed was either lying or miscalculating.
Com-Ed lie? You mean, Nukie Nuke himself. The company that paid Mike Madigan enough to make Illinois its electric fiefdom?
Not Com-Ed? The guys and gals that had their CEO fired and convicted on public corruption charges?
The company that was charged with conspiring to cover up security breeches at its Cordova Nuclear Power Plant?
That Com-Ed, lie? Never!!!!!
... and Michael Madigan is a trustworthy public servant!
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All right, I'll tell you why I'd buy an EV (I don't have one). If I can buy one that I can reserve the polarity and use it when the power goes off to run my house -- that Florida phenomenon called "Hurricanes" is real -- then OK, sold!
My house, by the way, is compliant with post-Homestead Florida building codes. Reinforced concrete walls, 150 mile-an-hour impact resistant windows. About the only burnable thing in here is the furnishings and the drywall!
Hah, I live in a mountainous area of high winds (a nearby road is name "hurricane hill"). But my house is made of sticks (still solid after 50 years) and surrounded by even more sticks (sometimes called pine trees). So I get the backup power option! Though if my house goes up in flames, likely it either came from the 100s of forest acres adjacent, or I've just been the one to ignite them! Yikes.
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All right, I'll tell you why I'd buy an EV (I don't have one). If I can buy one that I can reserve the polarity and use it when the power goes off to run my house -- that Florida phenomenon called "Hurricanes" is real -- then OK, sold!
My house, by the way, is compliant with post-Homestead Florida building codes. Reinforced concrete walls, 150 mile-an-hour impact resistant windows. About the only burnable thing in here is the furnishings and the drywall!
You can do that right now, today, with several different EVs
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All right, I'll tell you why I'd buy an EV (I don't have one). If I can buy one that I can reserve the polarity and use it when the power goes off to run my house -- that Florida phenomenon called "Hurricanes" is real -- then OK, sold!
My house, by the way, is compliant with post-Homestead Florida building codes. Reinforced concrete walls, 150 mile-an-hour impact resistant windows. About the only burnable thing in here is the furnishings and the drywall!
I think it was Ford that was running commercials at Christmas time where the power went out on a family holiday dinner and they plugged their Ford in to continue the dinner party.
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so much for EV's being environmentally "clean"...
"A latest study has claimed that electric vehicles (EV) may release more particulate matter from brakes and tyres as compared to modern gas-powered cars. According the study by Emission Analytics, the emission could be 1,850 times greater."
https://www.hindustantimes.com/car-bike/electric-vehicles-may-emit-1-850-times-more-particulate-matter-than-petrol-diesel-cars-study-101709709993008.html
disclaimer- I think EV's are kinda cool and would buy one if it for my needs, but the selling point of being "good for the environment" stuff is a bunch of horse hockey. and yes, I did sell my Tesla stock at $260 ish, but I didn't buy because of it's cleanliness. let the market determine it's value
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Lol. No.
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So thirsty for material to satisfy your confirmation bias that you uncritically repost the Hindustan Times.
Buddy.
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I got hit by a bus and it was not electric but i do not think that would have made my situation any different
thanks and hope this helps
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Let me be clear - I'm not agreeing with rocket ;D
However, they do eat through tires, and likely brakes too. My friends that regularly drive theirs have had to replace (expensive) tires about every year. It's just the weight differential vs non-EV. It is a maintenance cost concern.
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Fascinating to watch. Fisker may go belly up. Meanwhile, Jaguar is going full electric in the next year.
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Let me be clear - I'm not agreeing with rocket ;D
However, they do eat through tires, and likely brakes too. My friends that regularly drive theirs have had to replace (expensive) tires about every year. It's just the weight differential vs non-EV. It is a maintenance cost concern.
That's why EV owners should know to be appropriate strength tires.
This is a non-issue. It's all about buying correct tires. EVs, as a consequence of their increased weight, aren't any different than any other vehicle.
An owner of a Ford F350 isn't buying tires meant to go on a Honda Accord. The weight of the 350 would tear through the tires quickly.
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Let me be clear - I'm not agreeing with rocket ;D
However, they do eat through tires, and likely brakes too. My friends that regularly drive theirs have had to replace (expensive) tires about every year. It's just the weight differential vs non-EV. It is a maintenance cost concern.
I'm assuming that's because the torque/accel is so much higher w/ an electric motor?
I've wondered for a while when car companies are going to put some kind of computer governor system into place to basically re-calibrate acceleration down. I have a buddy who flies F18s in the marines, and he describes a fighter pilot as "a voting member of the jet." Meaning that if he hit the stick in a way that the computer knew would k.o. the plane, the plane simply wouldn't follow that input (I'm sure he's vastly oversimplifying, but bear with me).
If an EV has acceleration/torque high enough to spin tires on normal road conditions at the level of pedal depression that the average driver is going to employ, it seems like it's not a stretch for the mfg to have the computer nerf the input.
Also, I'd be curious on the brakes. I have a hybrid at 85kish miles, factory original brakes, just had them inspected today and they're still in great shape. I *think* the regenerative braking system that transfers energy into battery charging during braking must be alleviating some of the stress on the pads. At least that's my not-so-eductated guess.
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EV tires are often made from a softer compound because EV drivers don't like hearing tire noise that is normally not heard over all the ambient noise produces by ICE cars.
https://www.tirereview.com/5-ways-ev-tires-differ-from-regular-tires/ (https://www.tirereview.com/5-ways-ev-tires-differ-from-regular-tires/)
Since EVs don’t have an engine, they create virtually no noise when driven. Therefore, one of the most important requirements of an EV tire is that it reduces as much road noise as possible in order to maintain the quietness of the ride. Noise reduction can be achieved through design and manufacturing techniques such as specialized tread patterns and sound-absorbing foam and rubber compounds.
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Uh everybody ... it's tyres, not tires. Sheesh!
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That's why EV owners should know to be appropriate strength tires.
This has happened with Tesla and Audi OEM tires. Are you saying the manufacturers don't know what they're doing?
I'm assuming that's because the torque/accel is so much higher w/ an electric motor?
I assume weight, torque, and accel. You might be right about the brakes w/regen - was only speculation on my part (and rocket's post). I haven't heard about brake problems from those I know.
EV tires are often made from a softer compound because EV drivers don't like hearing tire noise that is normally not heard over all the ambient noise produces by ICE cars.
Interesting, especially since EVs have to have noise generators at low speeds so people can hear them.
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This has happened with Tesla and Audi OEM tires. Are you saying the manufacturers don't know what they're doing?
I assume weight, torque, and accel. You might be right about the brakes w/regen - was only speculation on my part (and rocket's post). I haven't heard about brake problems from those I know.
Interesting, especially since EVs have to have noise generators at low speeds so people can hear them.
My Kia EV is 2 years old. I have friends with Tesla and Ford. None of our cars has required tire replacement at an interval different than a non-EV.
Maybe the folks you know are burning out a lot and that's contributing to wear?
I mean, yea, EVs weigh more. And they have increased torque. But it doesn't follow logic that they would wear out any quicker as long as the tires are rated appropriately to the car.
The one caveat is that perhaps early tires weren't great but manufacturers didn't know? There are a lot of EV specific tires these day
A helpful video: https://youtu.be/8pM9o2Ifcro?si=7xF4dV6-VeCkdiNQ
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I'm assuming that's because the torque/accel is so much higher w/ an electric motor?
I've wondered for a while when car companies are going to put some kind of computer governor system into place to basically re-calibrate acceleration down. I have a buddy who flies F18s in the marines, and he describes a fighter pilot as "a voting member of the jet." Meaning that if he hit the stick in a way that the computer knew would k.o. the plane, the plane simply wouldn't follow that input (I'm sure he's vastly oversimplifying, but bear with me).
If an EV has acceleration/torque high enough to spin tires on normal road conditions at the level of pedal depression that the average driver is going to employ, it seems like it's not a stretch for the mfg to have the computer nerf the input.
Also, I'd be curious on the brakes. I have a hybrid at 85kish miles, factory original brakes, just had them inspected today and they're still in great shape. I *think* the regenerative braking system that transfers energy into battery charging during braking must be alleviating some of the stress on the pads. At least that's my not-so-eductated guess.
Re: brakes - I would say with normal everyday driving, most EVs will rarely need brakes replaced because of the Regen braking.
After 2 years, my most recent inspection said I basically hadn't used my pads.
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Maybe the folks you know are burning out a lot and that's contributing to wear?
That would not seem like the folks I know, lol. I don't know what to make of our different experiences. One is an early model 3, smart dude, I doubt he'd keep putting on bad tires. Other was a used 2019 etron (bought 21 or 22) that came with new shoes, and needed new ones again in 2023.
Only explanation might be miles driven between my peers and your peers? Like I said, daily drivers, normal, but not excessive driving (14k/year).
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That would not seem like the folks I know, lol. I don't know what to make of our different experiences. One is an early model 3, smart dude, I doubt he'd keep putting on bad tires. Other was a used 2019 etron (bought 21 or 22) that came with new shoes, and needed new ones again in 2023.
Only explanation might be miles driven between my peers and your peers? Like I said, daily drivers, normal, but not excessive driving (14k/year).
No idea.
I'm at 15k/yr
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No idea.
I'm at 15k/yr
Yeah, odd. I'll quizz them more next time I see them. Is yours AWD / Dual motor / whatever? Could also play a part.
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Yeah, odd. I'll quizz them more next time I see them. Is yours AWD / Dual motor / whatever? Could also play a part.
Yes, AWD/dual motor. 320hp, 446 torque.
But I rarely floor it these days
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Yes, AWD/dual motor. 320hp, 446 torque.
But I rarely floor it these days
I highly doubt you can burn rubber in an EV, definitely not in a Tesla, computers do all the work. Personally I drive in chill mode. Slows down acceleration etc. just like someone describes above of why should be done.
Yes ev and hybrid you should not have to replace brake pads. Toyota hybrids maybe at 125k plus miles. EV with one pedal driving less often.
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All right, I'll tell you why I'd buy an EV (I don't have one). If I can buy one that I can reserve the polarity and use it when the power goes off to run my house -- that Florida phenomenon called "Hurricanes" is real -- then OK, sold!
My house, by the way, is compliant with post-Homestead Florida building codes. Reinforced concrete walls, 150 mile-an-hour impact resistant windows. About the only burnable thing in here is the furnishings and the drywall!
This already exists.
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Let me be clear - I'm not agreeing with rocket ;D
However, they do eat through tires, and likely brakes too. My friends that regularly drive theirs have had to replace (expensive) tires about every year. It's just the weight differential vs non-EV. It is a maintenance cost concern.
While this is true, the amount of routine maintenance costs are much smaller. There are thousands of individual parts in an ICE plus they need to be maintained/lubricated, etc.
Electric motors are incredibly simply and require next to no maintenance relatively.
If I could get 250 mi range under tow stresses, I'd change our entire fleet to electric asap. Someday that'll happen.
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So thirsty for material to satisfy your confirmation bias that you uncritically repost the Hindustan Times.
Buddy.
dude-did you read my "disclaimer"?? btw, you can find this study in multiple sources. i just happened to find this one. i have no idea what the hindustan times is or what it's affiliations or bias' are
just saying, if people want to continue to claim how good EV's are for the environment, need to do a little bit of critical thinking.
see you found a place to use your new word-"confirmation bias" sorry it fell flat however, but try again
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Let me be clear - I'm not agreeing with rocket ;D
However, they do eat through tires, and likely brakes too. My friends that regularly drive theirs have had to replace (expensive) tires about every year. It's just the weight differential vs non-EV. It is a maintenance cost concern.
oh heavens no, can't have any of that as your friends here will start the cancellation process
EV's may also use softer tires because they want the performance. my old xjr called for (high alphabet) rated tires and except for the occasional "messing around" i drove relatively mellow and still needed tire changes at 15k or so. first time that happened, i was like wtf???
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oh heavens no, can't have any of that as your friends here will start the cancellation process
EV's may also use softer tires because they want the performance. my old xjr called for (high alphabet) rated tires and except for the occasional "messing around" i drove relatively mellow and still needed tire changes at 15k or so. first time that happened, i was like wtf???
Cancel culture is reserved for those offended by beer cans
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While this is true, the amount of routine maintenance costs are much smaller. There are thousands of individual parts in an ICE plus they need to be maintained/lubricated, etc.
Electric motors are incredibly simply and require next to no maintenance relatively.
If I could get 250 mi range under tow stresses, I'd change our entire fleet to electric asap. Someday that'll happen.
It exists. Dodge ramcharger
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dude-did you read my "disclaimer"?? btw, you can find this study in multiple sources. i just happened to find this one. i have no idea what the hindustan times is or what it's affiliations or bias' are
just saying, if people want to continue to claim how good EV's are for the environment, need to do a little bit of critical thinking.
see you found a place to use your new word-"confirmation bias" sorry it fell flat however, but try again
lol
Translation (of most of your responses to mild criticism): "and another thing: im not mad. please dont put in the newspaper that i got mad."
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It exists. Dodge ramcharger
That's a pickup truck. :P
Also, the one I am looking at has a 3.6L 'generator'... which is uhhhh gas?
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lol
Translation (of most of your responses to mild criticism): "and another thing: im not mad. please dont put in the newspaper that i got mad."
ohhhh...phew!! and i thought you were mad at me and made my morning just unbearable but now i feel so much better 8-)
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2024/03/07/ai-data-centers-power/
Gang, this one is behind a paywall, but the headline is clear -- electric power for nearly 300 million new EVs will be at a premium.
This isn't Fox News either. It's the Bible of the Liberal set -- the Washington Post!
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2024/03/07/ai-data-centers-power/
Gang, this one is behind a paywall, but the headline is clear -- electric power for nearly 300 million new EVs will be at a premium.
This isn't Fox News either. It's the Bible of the Liberal set -- the Washington Post!
Most cars can charge overnight without impacting load on the power plants.
Plus look into how much solar and wind energy are being added every month in the US.
The shift to EVs for everyone won't happen over night, there is plenty of time to plan and add capacity.
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That's a pickup truck. :P
Also, the one I am looking at has a 3.6L 'generator'... which is uhhhh gas?
Didn't know exactly what type of vehicle you're looking for
Yea, that's the one. That vehicle is what truck drivers should actually be using - as opposed to a pure BEV.
125+ mi all electric (no towing). But then road trips or towing with electric/gas combo. The gas generator charges the batteries during driving.
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Most cars can charge overnight without impacting load on the power plants.
Plus look into how much solar and wind energy are being added every month in the US.
The shift to EVs for everyone won't happen over night, there is plenty of time to plan and add capacity.
Which i think is key. But unfortunately the reactionary doofuses who need change TODAY or need ICE cars/trucks outlawed by 2025 don't acknowledge that and thats where the caveats about power grids come from.
We'll get there. We'll get the excess energy needed. We'll get the range boosts to make it attractive, its a just matter of time. As with everything climate/energy related, the leaps needed to make real change come from innovation, not from wholesale modification of what is existing.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2024/03/07/ai-data-centers-power/
Gang, this one is behind a paywall, but the headline is clear -- electric power for nearly 300 million new EVs will be at a premium.
This isn't Fox News either. It's the Bible of the Liberal set -- the Washington Post!
According to the article, it's not EVs that are the problem. Power needed for AI data centers, bitcoin miners, and other industrial power seems to be the main users.
Vast swaths of the United States are at risk of running short of power as electricity-hungry data centers and clean-technology factories proliferate around the country, leaving utilities and regulators grasping for credible plans to expand the nation’s creaking power grid.
In Georgia, demand for industrial power is surging to record highs, with the projection of electricity use for the next decade now 17 times what it was only recently. Arizona Public Service, the largest utility in that state, is also struggling to keep up, projecting it will be out of transmission capacity before the end of the decade absent major upgrades.
Northern Virginia needs the equivalent of several large nuclear power plants to serve all the new data centers planned and under construction. Texas, where electricity shortages are already routine on hot summer days, faces the same dilemma.
The soaring demand is touching off a scramble to try to squeeze more juice out of an aging power grid while pushing commercial customers to go to extraordinary lengths to lock down energy sources, such as building their own power plants.
“When you look at the numbers, it is staggering,” said Jason Shaw, chairman of the Georgia Public Service Commission, which regulates electricity. “It makes you scratch your head and wonder how we ended up in this situation. How were the projections that far off? This has created a challenge like we have never seen before.”
A major factor behind the skyrocketing demand is the rapid innovation in artificial intelligence, which is driving the construction of large warehouses of computing infrastructure that require exponentially more power than traditional data centers. AI is also part of a huge scale-up of cloud computing. Tech firms like Amazon, Apple, Google, Meta and Microsoft are scouring the nation for sites for new data centers, and many lesser-known firms are also on the hunt.
The proliferation of crypto-mining, in which currencies like bitcoin are transacted and minted, is also driving data center growth. It is all putting new pressures on an overtaxed grid — the network of transmission lines and power stations that move electricity around the country. Bottlenecks are mounting, leaving both new generators of energy, particularly clean energy, and large consumers facing growing wait times for hookups.
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According to the article, it's not EVs that are the problem. Power needed for AI data centers, bitcoin miners, and other industrial power seems to be the main users.
Vast swaths of the United States are at risk of running short of power as electricity-hungry data centers and clean-technology factories proliferate around the country, leaving utilities and regulators grasping for credible plans to expand the nation’s creaking power grid.
In Georgia, demand for industrial power is surging to record highs, with the projection of electricity use for the next decade now 17 times what it was only recently. Arizona Public Service, the largest utility in that state, is also struggling to keep up, projecting it will be out of transmission capacity before the end of the decade absent major upgrades.
Northern Virginia needs the equivalent of several large nuclear power plants to serve all the new data centers planned and under construction. Texas, where electricity shortages are already routine on hot summer days, faces the same dilemma.
The soaring demand is touching off a scramble to try to squeeze more juice out of an aging power grid while pushing commercial customers to go to extraordinary lengths to lock down energy sources, such as building their own power plants.
“When you look at the numbers, it is staggering,” said Jason Shaw, chairman of the Georgia Public Service Commission, which regulates electricity. “It makes you scratch your head and wonder how we ended up in this situation. How were the projections that far off? This has created a challenge like we have never seen before.”
A major factor behind the skyrocketing demand is the rapid innovation in artificial intelligence, which is driving the construction of large warehouses of computing infrastructure that require exponentially more power than traditional data centers. AI is also part of a huge scale-up of cloud computing. Tech firms like Amazon, Apple, Google, Meta and Microsoft are scouring the nation for sites for new data centers, and many lesser-known firms are also on the hunt.
The proliferation of crypto-mining, in which currencies like bitcoin are transacted and minted, is also driving data center growth. It is all putting new pressures on an overtaxed grid — the network of transmission lines and power stations that move electricity around the country. Bottlenecks are mounting, leaving both new generators of energy, particularly clean energy, and large consumers facing growing wait times for hookups.
The IRA credits kicked in recently and I have never been more busy with sales matters working in green energy. It is all going gangbusters. They certainly are working on it. Just may be a lagging catch up for a while especially with the AI boom.
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While this is true, the amount of routine maintenance costs are much smaller. There are thousands of individual parts in an ICE plus they need to be maintained/lubricated, etc.
Electric motors are incredibly simply and require next to no maintenance relatively.
Oh, I agree completely - at least how reliable and simple EVs *should* be when manufactured properly. I can't remember if you and I were conversing on the hybrid topic, but the combo of ICE an Electric is why I can't really hop on the hybrid bandwagon. It's a binary choice in my mind.
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If you look into it, compare Toyotas. Their hybrids have lower cost of ownership and lower repairs and have for a long time. Not just brake and gas savings. Apparently it also has to do with less wear on the engine and other components.
Before I bought my first Prius when there were few in the Midwest, I thought the same: who wants more stuff that could go wrong in a car. A trip to CA in the 2000’s, seeing Prius’s all over, made me think they can’t all be idiots. Made me dig into it a bit.
I am actually surprised by some posts, not Rocky’s specifically, that people aren’t more familiar with hybrids. I see no reason not to buy one from a company such as Toyota, Kia, maybe Ford, over a comparable ICE. Lower cost of ownership, pollute less, start stop engine. When I’m in a parking garage in line with ICE vehicles it is like the Stone Age except I hailing all this fumes. Same with stop lights, drive through lanes. At least a hybrid usually shuts off its engine.
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If you look into it, compare Toyotas. Their hybrids have lower cost of ownership and lower repairs and have for a long time. Not just brake and gas savings. Apparently it also has to do with less wear on the engine and other components.
Before I bought my first Prius when there were few in the Midwest, I thought the same: who wants more stuff that could go wrong in a car. A trip to CA in the 2000’s, seeing Prius’s all over, made me think they can’t all be idiots. Made me dig into it a bit.
I am actually surprised by some posts, not Rocky’s specifically, that people aren’t more familiar with hybrids. I see no reason not to buy one from a company such as Toyota, Kia, maybe Ford, over a comparable ICE. Lower cost of ownership, pollute less, start stop engine. When I’m in a parking garage in line with ICE vehicles it is like the Stone Age except I hailing all this fumes. Same with stop lights, drive through lanes. At least a hybrid usually shuts off its engine.
The cost upfront is more than ICE and the cost savings takes a significant amount of time to recoup
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It depends on a lot of factors, of course. Price of gas, miles driven, highway versus city/suburban driving, short trips often versus long highway miles. Big interstate commuters won’t see the pay back as fast as city drivers. But it will save money in the longer term. And pretty quickly for those who put a lot of miles on. And it will help save our lungs.
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I am actually surprised by some posts, not Rocky’s specifically, that people aren’t more familiar with hybrids. I see no reason not to buy one from a company such as Toyota, Kia, maybe Ford, over a comparable ICE.
Since I brought hybrids into this, I'll clarify for others that my daily driver is a 26 year old ICE vehicle with ~290k miles that came with a tag from the plant that it was made specifically for me, and rarely needs repairs :) I had a 2001 mid-engine convertible roadster in the past that I mostly drove in the summers that kept miles on this one down (wish I hadn't sold that now).
I've been looking into EVs.
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Since I brought hybrids into this, I'll clarify for others that my daily driver is a 26 year old ICE vehicle with ~290k miles that came with a tag from the plant that it was made specifically for me, and rarely needs repairs :) I had a 2001 mid-engine convertible roadster in the past that I mostly drove in the summers that kept miles on this one down (wish I hadn't sold that now).
I've been looking into EVs.
Unsolicited advice from a stranger:
Hybrid: Strongly consider Toyota. Maybe Kia/Hyundai next. Not sure on the rest, maybe Ford for US but I personally wouldn’t. If looking at others compare the mileage between the hybrid and non-hybrid. Some brands throw a batter in and call it a hybrid but they do little. PersonallyI wouldn’t trust the others yet, but that’s me and we keep cars for 8 plus years. My last Prius had 197k before I sold it at 14 years old. It became a 3rd car for me to use when others in the family were using my ev.
EV: Strongly consider Tesla. If a model 3, make sure you get the updated 3 that just came out. If going for a Y wait, if you possibly can, until the “Juniper” refresh happens, likely towards the end of this year, maybe early 2025. If you can wait on the 3, I would for the tax credit to return, I think only the performance trim had the credit now but I see you can’t order it now. Obviously AWD unless you’re in the south.
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https://electrek.co/2024/03/08/tesla-shipping-cybertruck-tent/
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A $3000 tent.
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Rivian R2 and R3 look nice
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They do. Hopefully the company can stay afloat until they arrive. Also, hopefully, the company has enough institutional flexibility to adapt to new and improved battery tech.
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I hope to be the last person on the planet with a V8 car.
Or two.
Hybrids are a nice idea but the benefits are largely offset by the extra fuel burn required because of the increased horsepower needed due to the extra weight and lower efficiency of the electrical system vs. traditional drivetrain.
Battery EV's are a fad. The power density of a battery vs. gasoline will never allow it to be successful for the long term.
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Rivian R2 and R3 look nice
R3 is ok, R2 looks like a Roblox car
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They do. Hopefully the company can stay afloat until they arrive. Also, hopefully, the company has enough institutional flexibility to adapt to new and improved battery tech.
Hopefully indeed. My son is headed to Irvine to work for them this summer. He said the company is excited for the new vehicles, I think they look great.
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I hope to be the last person on the planet with a V8 car.
Or two.
Hybrids are a nice idea but the benefits are largely offset by the extra fuel burn required because of the increased horsepower needed due to the extra weight and lower efficiency of the electrical system vs. traditional drivetrain.
Battery EV's are a fad. The power density of a battery vs. gasoline will never allow it to be successful for the long term.
Lots of wrong here. Lol
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I hope to be the last person on the planet with a V8 car.
Or two.
Hybrids are a nice idea but the benefits are largely offset by the extra fuel burn required because of the increased horsepower needed due to the extra weight and lower efficiency of the electrical system vs. traditional drivetrain.
Battery EV's are a fad. The power density of a battery vs. gasoline will never allow it to be successful for the long term.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/f69ec1ec93f6c622333cc57ba568445c/tenor.gif?itemid=9750892)
Ain't no way these fancy self-driving buggies will ever replace the traditonal horse.
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I hope to be the last person on the planet with a V8 car.
Or two.
Hybrids are a nice idea but the benefits are largely offset by the extra fuel burn required because of the increased horsepower needed due to the extra weight and lower efficiency of the electrical system vs. traditional drivetrain.
Battery EV's are a fad. The power density of a battery vs. gasoline will never allow it to be successful for the long term.
Wut
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I hope to be the last person on the planet with a V8 car.
Or two.
Hybrids are a nice idea but the benefits are largely offset by the extra fuel burn required because of the increased horsepower needed due to the extra weight and lower efficiency of the electrical system vs. traditional drivetrain.
Battery EV's are a fad. The power density of a battery vs. gasoline will never allow it to be successful for the long term.
This has to be teal, I assume.
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I hope to be the last person on the planet with a V8 car.
Or two.
Hybrids are a nice idea but the benefits are largely offset by the extra fuel burn required because of the increased horsepower needed due to the extra weight and lower efficiency of the electrical system vs. traditional drivetrain.
Battery EV's are a fad. The power density of a battery vs. gasoline will never allow it to be successful for the long term.
You also should consider "watering" your garden with gasoline. Despite what some so-called experts might say, gas - especially premium leaded if you can still find it - is actually better for plants.
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I thought Brawndo was what plants crave?
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From Seeking Alpha's "Wall Street Breakfast" newsletter:
It looks like the electric vehicle euphoria is losing steam, as automakers scale back EV plans and slash prices to compete in the saturated market. Sparked by a Wells Fargo call that turned bearish, Tesla (TSLA) slid 4.5% on Wednesday, making it the S&P 500's (SP500) worst performing stock in 2024. "After years of peak spending on EVs and autonomous vehicles, auto manufacturers are pivoting to capital efficiency and return," Morgan Stanley added, noting that makers of gas-powered cars are poised to deliver shareholder gains. Elsewhere, troubled EV maker Fisker (FSR) is planning to file for bankruptcy, just weeks after issuing a "going concern" warning.
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Yeah the infrastructure just isn't there. Not sure it ever will be.
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It will be. Battery technology and charging technology are only going to improve. Combine the claimed Toyota battery breakthrough (500-700 miles) with improved high speed charging (500 miles in 15 minutes, yes please) and some of these larger gas stations putting in a block of chargers rather than pumps (solar supported/augmented?). All of these things are possible in the next 10 years.
Of course it is muddy right now. What isn't?
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It will be. Battery technology and charging technology are only going to improve. Combine the claimed Toyota battery breakthrough (500-700 miles) with improved high speed charging (500 miles in 15 minutes, yes please) and some of these larger gas stations putting in a block of chargers rather than pumps (solar supported/augmented?). All of these things are possible in the next 10 years.
Of course it is muddy right now. What isn't?
This exactly.
I've been reading of others with independent but similar breakthrough's like Toyota.
What came after the Model T?
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Yeah the infrastructure just isn't there. Not sure it ever will be.
I can't disagree more.
The only scenarios where public charging infrastructure matters:
1. You commute more than 200mi/Day
2. You regularly road trip
3. You can't install a home charger
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From Seeking Alpha's "Wall Street Breakfast" newsletter:
It looks like the electric vehicle euphoria is losing steam, as automakers scale back EV plans and slash prices to compete in the saturated market. Sparked by a Wells Fargo call that turned bearish, Tesla (TSLA) slid 4.5% on Wednesday, making it the S&P 500's (SP500) worst performing stock in 2024. "After years of peak spending on EVs and autonomous vehicles, auto manufacturers are pivoting to capital efficiency and return," Morgan Stanley added, noting that makers of gas-powered cars are poised to deliver shareholder gains. Elsewhere, troubled EV maker Fisker (FSR) is planning to file for bankruptcy, just weeks after issuing a "going concern" warning.
EVs continue to sell at record numbers.
I suggest you look at the consumer numbers.
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I can't disagree more.
The only scenarios where public charging infrastructure matters:
1. You commute more than 200mi/Day
2. You regularly road trip
3. You can't install a home charger
I probably overstated with my "not sure it ever will be" comment, but I think #2 on your list is a big problem. I would have no problem with an EV if I only used it locally or to commute, but I would say that I take a road trip of 200+ roundtrip miles pretty regularly. I don't think I'm alone in that regard.
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According to the article, it's not EVs that are the problem. Power needed for AI data centers, bitcoin miners, and other industrial power seems to be the main users.
Vast swaths of the United States are at risk of running short of power as electricity-hungry data centers and clean-technology factories proliferate around the country, leaving utilities and regulators grasping for credible plans to expand the nation’s creaking power grid.
In Georgia, demand for industrial power is surging to record highs, with the projection of electricity use for the next decade now 17 times what it was only recently. Arizona Public Service, the largest utility in that state, is also struggling to keep up, projecting it will be out of transmission capacity before the end of the decade absent major upgrades.
Northern Virginia needs the equivalent of several large nuclear power plants to serve all the new data centers planned and under construction. Texas, where electricity shortages are already routine on hot summer days, faces the same dilemma.
The soaring demand is touching off a scramble to try to squeeze more juice out of an aging power grid while pushing commercial customers to go to extraordinary lengths to lock down energy sources, such as building their own power plants.
“When you look at the numbers, it is staggering,” said Jason Shaw, chairman of the Georgia Public Service Commission, which regulates electricity. “It makes you scratch your head and wonder how we ended up in this situation. How were the projections that far off? This has created a challenge like we have never seen before.”
A major factor behind the skyrocketing demand is the rapid innovation in artificial intelligence, which is driving the construction of large warehouses of computing infrastructure that require exponentially more power than traditional data centers. AI is also part of a huge scale-up of cloud computing. Tech firms like Amazon, Apple, Google, Meta and Microsoft are scouring the nation for sites for new data centers, and many lesser-known firms are also on the hunt.
The proliferation of crypto-mining, in which currencies like bitcoin are transacted and minted, is also driving data center growth. It is all putting new pressures on an overtaxed grid — the network of transmission lines and power stations that move electricity around the country. Bottlenecks are mounting, leaving both new generators of energy, particularly clean energy, and large consumers facing growing wait times for hookups.
Brother MU:
It's not about who's causing the load issues, it's the fact they exist. I don't disagree with the notion that server farms and high-technology are major factors but I question what happens when you put 150 million to 200 million electric vehicles on the electrical grid what's going to happen.
Already, there's questions across the country about where high voltage power lines go and whether new lines can be built. In Wisconsin, for example, a distributor wanted to run a line through the Northwoods from near Superior to Weston, near Wausau to move excess electricity into the lower Midwest. The fight to stop that thing was enormous, though it finally was approved. And technological improvement notwithstanding, we're going to need thousands of new transformers, upgraded delivery systems and more high voltage power lines to distribute the incremental electricity to a electric vehicle owner's home and place of business.
Can you imagine Bucky's with 300 rapid chargers? They'd need their own nuclear power plant in the back yard!!!!
Then there's the issue of the power itself. With technological upgrades, electric cars, ranges, home heating and water heaters, among other things, where's the power coming from? I keep hearing on these boards that efficiency will create surplus power for electric vehicles. Frank Borman heard the same line over and over from the IAM at Eastern Airlines about their "efficiency" paying for their large contract increases. Borman got sacked, Eastern was acquired by Frank Lorenzo and the IAM members largely lost their jobs.
Efficiency will help. But how we're getting there is ridiculous. In my case, I have an "energy efficient" dishwasher. Unless I override the base settings, the dishwasher washes in cool water, takes twice as long and my dishes all but need to be washed before they go into the dishwasher. What's the point?
We will need lots of power plants. We have a long way to get there, but if we want to attain California's and the national goals, we're already late to the party! And, how are we going to pay for all this upgrading? The electric customers' rate base?????
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You made these same points a couple of weeks back and people spent time responding.
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Can you imagine Bucky's with 300 rapid chargers? They'd need their own nuclear power plant in the back yard!!!!
I don't think you understand the scale of power usage.
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Y'all putting the car before the infrastructure. here in Cal we have Brown Outs in the summer when heat waves hit and the system can't deliver enough for the A/C. Need more power production and the means to deliver it. I get your enthusiasm for EV but a lot has to be worked out for them to be ubiquitous. IMHO
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Y'all putting the car before the infrastructure. here in Cal we have Brown Outs in the summer when heat waves hit and the system can't deliver enough for the A/C. Need more power production and the means to deliver it. I get your enthusiasm for EV but a lot has to be worked out for them to be ubiquitous. IMHO
The best (and cheapest) time to charge your car is at night when the power is plentiful and cheaper.
You haven't thought this through.
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Y'all putting the car before the infrastructure. here in Cal we have Brown Outs in the summer when heat waves hit and the system can't deliver enough for the A/C. Need more power production and the means to deliver it. I get your enthusiasm for EV but a lot has to be worked out for them to be ubiquitous. IMHO
Open a window like we did back in the 50s. The temp is no hotter than it was then right?
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Here in Cal our evening power comes from neighboring states and is more expensive. We sell our excess less expensive green energy to them during daylight hours . You are probably correct about 49 states
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Here in Cal our evening power comes from neighboring states and is more expensive. We sell our excess less expensive green energy to them during daylight hours . You are probably correct about 49 states
Ha, well I'll be damned. Learn something new every day.
But, there is still power available. :)
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I can't disagree more.
The only scenarios where public charging infrastructure matters:
1. You commute more than 200mi/Day
2. You regularly road trip
3. You can't install a home charger
35% of America lives in apartments
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35% of America lives in apartments
perhaps that will become an amenity, years ago I got a week vacation for signing a 1 year lease because of competition for renters
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Not sure if this belongs here or in the economy thread, but they continue to move toward reopening the Palisades nuclear plant in SW Michigan and perhaps, long term, expand its capabilities using modern technologies.
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Not sure if this belongs here or in the economy thread, but they continue to move toward reopening the Palisades nuclear plant in SW Michigan and perhaps, long term, expand its capabilities using modern technologies.
Good. We need more nuclear around the country
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GO NUCLEAR
been invested in cameco, Dennison and ur-energy inc for years and the chickens are coming home
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Good. We need more nuclear around the country
Great to hear. The massive wind and solar scale up will not be able to handle the growth of demand by itself.
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Buy a Fisker Ocean for $25k....and hope it never breaks...
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Buy a Fisker Ocean for $25k....and hope it never breaks...
A friend of mine bought one two months ago .. yikes.
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EV's: setting records for sales. Sales not meeting expectations. Both things are true.
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EV's: setting records for sales. Sales not meeting expectations. Both things are true.
Who sets the expectations?
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Great to hear. The massive wind and solar scale up will not be able to handle the growth of demand by itself.
Big solar farm in Texas just got destroyed by a monster hail storm. hope they're covered this Summer for AC
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Big solar farm in Texas just got destroyed by a monster hail storm. hope they're covered this Summer for AC
🤡
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Big solar farm in Texas just got destroyed by a monster hail storm. hope they're covered this Summer for AC
Damaged. Still functioning and repairable. Less impact than hurricanes hitting oil rigs. Or a nuke plant near an earthquake fault.
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The damage had an impact your examples are not impacting anything. You could also worry about a fire in a solar farm with a very impactful environmental disaster if we were postulating
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Your grammar is odd and I am struggling to follow your logic. Are you arguing that the solar grid could produce a worse environmental disaster than the Deepwater Horizon or the Fukushima power plant? Or that oil rigs in the gulf aren't shut down during bad weather? Which is the equivalent of what is happening with this solar farm.
How about the water problems in west Texas?
But first, help me with your grammar
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I’m not arguing at all. Your examples are less likely than solar panels being damaged by things such as severe storms or tornadoes.
I don’t get the aggression when I merely reported something that happened and expressed concern because I have friends in Texas who rely on a/c because of the heat and humidity. Texas has had supply problems in the past. Ad hominem attacks do not constitute an effective rebuttal and I’m comfortable with my grammar.
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Maybe Texas should connect to other grids then
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Occasional burst pipes and brownouts are a small price to pay for freedom my friend.
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"Energy supplied by Source X is subject to external Interruptions Y. Therefore we should not pursue energy supplied by Source X."
I, humbly, submit this is not a bulletproof argument. However, to the extent that you care to hear anything other than something to confirm your prior/pre-existing conclusion "solar is unreliable and therefore bad" then might I suggest:
Energy supplied by Solar is subject to external weather-related interruptions. Energy supplied by Wind is subject to external weather-related interruptions. Energy supplied by Petroleum is subject to external weather (and occasionally geo-political) interruptions. Developing an infrastructure that allows the use of the first two to reduce reliance on the last one while maintaining a diverse supply that is sufficient to "weather" (sorry) the interruptions that are unavoidable in energy production by any means is a responsible policy and, in fact, superior to exclusively relying on any one energy source to the exclusion of the others.
Put more simply, the fact that weather can interfere with solar power production is hardly an argument that solar power should not be developed.
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While driving in Scottsdale this morning, we passed a Cybertruck - the first MuskTruck I've seen in the wild.
Even uglier and less functional looking than the photos I'd seen had suggested.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that yesterday we also saw a Waymo vehicle. It was a Jaguar and yep, no driver. First time I'd seen that, too. Very bizarre.
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Occasional burst pipes and brownouts are a small price to pay for freedom my friend.
And if a certain number of people have to occasionally freeze to death or die of heat stroke, well it's worth it to keep Texas' grid pure.
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Friend has a Porsche Taycan Turbo S. That, my fellow scoopers, is what all EV's should strive for.
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And if a certain number of people have to occasionally freeze to death or die of heat stroke, well it's worth it to keep Texas' grid pure.
I was reading up on the history of the grid this morning because...why not?
And the funniest thing I saw was that at one point, they had to import power from Mexico for a couple of days. The jokes just write themsevles huh?
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It’s interesting, because Texas is installing preposterous amounts of wind energy right now. But the ones that currently exist are very poorly run. There’s a big problem with convincing Texas technicians to work on a wind farm. (That and “border protection” vigilantes driving through them and firing off weapons and shutting them down but that’s a different problem) The stigma of them in oil country runs pretty strong for something that combined with new battery storage tech would help smooth some of the extremes out.
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It’s interesting, because Texas is installing preposterous amounts of wind energy right now. But the ones that currently exist are very poorly run. There’s a big problem with convincing Texas technicians to work on a wind farm. (That and “border protection” vigilantes driving through them and firing off weapons and shutting them down but that’s a different problem) The stigma of them in oil country runs pretty strong for something that combined with new battery storage tech would help smooth some of the extremes out.
Everything is bigger in Texas, especially the idiots
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Friend has a Porsche Taycan Turbo S. That, my fellow scoopers, is what all EV's should strive for.
The benchmark in the EV space is the lucid Sapphire
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Ahhh, good ole gasoline.
With it, we can go anywhere, do about anything legal and generally not worry about it. An entire economy is built on its refinement, transport, distribution and consumption. It's the American way!!!!
It's good stuff.... man. It makes a blue BMW run with incredible German efficiency. You can burn it. You can drink it if you're drunk enough, though I wouldn't recommend it. Certain religions can use it to start burning heretics at the stake. Sure beats more conventional means of burning infidels!
Think of a world without gasoline. We'd be dependent on transit authorities with such bizarre names as "WeGo" or "Marta" or "DART". My God, without gasoline and its kissin' cousins, diesel fuel and kerosene (Jet "A"), we might have to, God forbid, be reliant on uhhhh, uhhhh, Amtrak. Oh, the pain!
Without gasoline, Los Angeles might not exist as we know it. And, could society really exist without Los Angeles in its current form? I doubt it!!!!
As my 17 gallon tank of gasoline said to the nearby Tesla battery, "The reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated!"
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Ahhh, good ole gasoline.
With it, we can go anywhere, do about anything legal and generally not worry about it. An entire economy is built on its refinement, transport, distribution and consumption. It's the American way!!!!
It's good stuff.... man. It makes a blue BMW run with incredible German efficiency. You can burn it. You can drink it if you're drunk enough, though I wouldn't recommend it. Certain religions can use it to start burning heretics at the stake. Sure beats more conventional means of burning infidels!
Think of a world without gasoline. We'd be dependent on transit authorities with such bizarre names as "WeGo" or "Marta" or "DART". My God, without gasoline and its kissin' cousins, diesel fuel and kerosene (Jet "A"), we might have to, God forbid, be reliant on uhhhh, uhhhh, Amtrak. Oh, the pain!
Without gasoline, Los Angeles might not exist as we know it. And, could society really exist without Los Angeles in its current form? I doubt it!!!!
As my 17 gallon tank of gasoline said to the nearby Tesla battery, "The reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated!"
Uh...thanks?
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Uh...thanks?
Anytime there Brother Satan!
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Anytime there Brother Satan!
I thought they took the lead out of it
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dgies
Fill that BMW up and hit the road!!
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Can’t afford it in da buffoon’s economy
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I agree on the economy. I am sitting at a popular Mexican place and 90% of the tables are empty. I was here last year on a weeknight and had an hour wait. Fortunately, I think dgies can fill it up!!
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I agree on the economy. I am sitting at a popular Mexican place and 90% of the tables are empty. I was here last year on a weeknight and had an hour wait. Fortunately, I think dgies can fill it up!!
Yes. The best way to determine the country’s economic health is by surveying Mexican restaurants on a random Friday evening.
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Yes. The best way to determine the country’s economic health is by surveying Mexican restaurants on a random Friday evening.
Not enough people driving American cars. Too many Beamers out there. Pretty unreliable and expensive to repair and they need a lot of repair.
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Big solar farm in Texas just got destroyed by a monster hail storm. hope they're covered this Summer for AC
Meanwhile the nearby coal fired power plant works just fine.
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Yes. The best way to determine the country’s economic health is by surveying Mexican restaurants on a random Friday evening.
Brother Satan:
OK, if you don't like the Mexican Restaurant Observational Index as a basis for economic growth, let's try this:
In October 2020, give or take a few weeks, the price of the most precious commodity this side of beer -- gasoline -- in my county in the State of Florida was $1.98 per gallon at the local Citgo (now an Exxon-Mobil station).
Tonight, I filled up my convertible and paid $3.77 per gallon. That's roughly a 20 percent Compound Annual Growth Rate ("CAGR) in 3.583 years.
That's enough to make even the most arrogant of Middle Eastern royalty blush!
It's also enough to make people think the economy sucks!!!! When you look at the greatly increased cost of today's essentials, red meat, beer, booze and wine, the current leadership of this country has a problem. And no, lower prices on rabbit food isn't going to make us change one bit!!!!!
A couple of years ago, I think it was 2021 or so, I filled my beloved BMW (which, for the record Brother Rico, is one of the most reliable automobiles I've ever owned. It's nine years old and has 50,000 miles on it) at a gasoline merchant in Lake County, Illinois. It was more than $6.00 a gallon for the premium my BMW so richly deserves! But that was Illinois! What do you expect?
The fact that we're all not racing out to our Tesla dealerships or buying the Ford F-150 Lightening is a testament to the fact that, at a very minimum, we're addicted to gasoline! The last drop of gasoline burned in North America probably will on Interstate 95 somewhere between Martin and Duval Counties, likely in a car going 150 miles per hour through a Florida State Trooper radar trap (and, yes, the Trooper probably will be too lazy to chase him)!
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(https://media3.giphy.com/media/ji6zzUZwNIuLS/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952r0r42023udjqcyfmiz9thn43f7nwfrwo0o6tk06b&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
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(https://media3.giphy.com/media/ji6zzUZwNIuLS/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952r0r42023udjqcyfmiz9thn43f7nwfrwo0o6tk06b&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Right?
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I agree on the economy. I am sitting at a popular Mexican place and 90% of the tables are empty. I was here last year on a weeknight and had an hour wait. Fortunately, I think dgies can fill it up!!
Tonight, my wife and I were at a popular Scottsdale brewery that also served food. Every table was taken, the bar area was packed, and there was a line of people waiting for a table. Last night, we were at a popular Tucson restaurant. Every table was taken, the bar area was packed, and we were told there was a 2-hour wait for those without reservations. Last week, we were at a popular Charlotte restaurant. Every table was taken, the bar area was packed, and there was a 1-hour wait.
Ipso fatso, those 3 personal anecdotes serve as unassailable proof that the entire U.S. economy is not just good or great, but perfect.
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Higher Gas prices controlled by market supply and demand factors that ignorant people think is the President’s fault doesn’t make that the case though?
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Meanwhile the nearby coal fired power plant works just fine.
Sure does!
https://news.utexas.edu/2023/11/27/coal-power-killed-half-a-million-people-in-u-s-over-two-decades/
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82
Keep on spending!! I am strongly encouraging everyone to spend, spend, spend. Enjoy AZ!
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Pretty sure Nads is livin' high off da hog...North Carolina style, aina?
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Doc
I have there are millions of 82’s out there spending money and driving the economy. I find it very interesting that the vast majority of people I talk about the economy are concerned and scoopers are not.
I love Fluff jumping in on my Mexican restaurant experience from last night. The expert on all topics.
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Goose, you're just not woke, hey?
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Goose, you're just not woke, hey?
No, I don’t think goose boycotts beer because a transgender person posed with it
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Doc
I have there are millions of 82’s out there spending money and driving the economy. I find it very interesting that the vast majority of people I talk about the economy are concerned and scoopers are not.
I love Fluff jumping in on my Mexican restaurant experience from last night. The expert on all topics.
No offense, but that was a dumb statement. I would think you know better than that.
But perhaps not.
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Fluff
There is no better evidence in judging life than observing life around you. The smartest business people I know have some of the simplest methods for judging the economy. Hell, Warren Buffet watches the sales of men’s underwear as a guide on the economy. But, I know you are far more sophisticated in your knowledge of the economy.
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I agree on the economy. I am sitting at a popular Mexican place and 90% of the tables are empty. I was here last year on a weeknight and had an hour wait. Fortunately, I think dgies can fill it up!!
I've been told by a reliable source that the U.S. Government lies about the economic numbers, just like the Chinese government, so that probably explains the disconnect between the jobs numbers, GDP, unemployment, etc. vs. your real-world findings at a popular Mexican place.
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In October 2020, give or take a few weeks, the price of the most precious commodity this side of beer -- gasoline -- in my county in the State of Florida was $1.98 per gallon at the local Citgo (now an Exxon-Mobil station).
Tonight, I filled up my convertible and paid $3.77 per gallon. That's roughly a 20 percent Compound Annual Growth Rate ("CAGR) in 3.583 years.
Yes, if only we could go back to the good ol' days of October 2020 when the economy was humming along and we hadn't a care in the world.
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Before this gets locked, I am going to go to a Mexican restaurant tonight and count EV’s in the parking lot and end the debate about EVs and the economy.
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Rico
Great call. Uncle Julio’s at Brookfield Square. If you decide to dine there, bring your own Corona and wine, because they were out of stock last night. It might be a good idea to bring along your own staff as well.
I do realize that you would not slum it by going there, but just in case I wanted to give you fair warning. FYI, if you seeing a guy outside burning $250 that would be me, it would be a better use of the money than I experienced last night.
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Yes, if only we could go back to the good ol' days of October 2020 when the economy was humming along and we hadn't a care in the world.
Was just wondering to myself if anything else was going on in fall 2020 that might have affected gas prices?
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Rico
Great call. Uncle Julio’s at Brookfield Square. If you decide to dine there, bring your own Corona and wine, because they were out of stock last night. It might be a good idea to bring along your own staff as well.
I do realize that you would not slum it by going there, but just in case I wanted to give you fair warning. FYI, if you seeing a guy outside burning $250 that would be me, it would be a better use of the money than I experienced last night.
Honestly, as an evangelical, I don’t eat ethnic food, so I wouldn’t know better
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Honestly, as an evangelical, I don’t eat ethnic food, so I wouldn’t know better
Just freedom fries and freedom toast.
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Rico
You can use that $250 for a good number of rounds at Greenfield Golf and Country Club.
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Rico
You can use that $250 for a good number of rounds at Greenfield Golf and Country Club.
I’ve been spending my discretionary money on specialty bibles
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TSmith
I am happy that you feel we are in a strong economy and you have not had any hardships, concerns over cost of living and prosperity. That said, there might be people in our country that have not been so lucky and those are people I am concerned for their well being.
Like I mentioned to 4ever, I hope there are 10’s of millions of people out there today spending as much money as possible driving the economy. Only a fxxkin idiot would not want a strong economy.
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TSmith
I am happy that you feel we are in a strong economy and you have not had any hardships, concerns over cost of living and prosperity. That said, there might be people in our country that have not been so lucky and those are people I am concerned for their well being.
Like I mentioned to 4ever, I hope there are 10’s of millions of people out there today spending as much money as possible driving the economy. Only a fxxkin idiot would not want a strong economy.
On a serious note, you’re right Goose, only a fxxkin idiot would not want a strong economy.
Sadly, people from both sides of the spectrum would be just fine with a bad economy and real hardships on people if it scored political points.
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Rico
What makes me laugh, for some reason folks on here think that my take on the economy has a political slant. I could not care less about the government and feel they do more harm than good in regards to the economy. I have felt the government has fxxkrd up in letting the economy drive itself since 9/11, and especially since the Great Recession. I think they all suck.
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Rico
What makes me laugh, for some reason folks on here think that my take on the economy has a political slant. I could not care less about the government and feel they do more harm than good in regards to the economy. I have felt the government has fxxkrd up in letting the economy drive itself since 9/11, and especially since the Great Recession. I think they all suck.
Well, they do all suck, so you are correct!
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Higher Gas prices controlled by market supply and demand factors that ignorant people think is the President’s fault doesn’t make that the case though?
Ordinarily, I might agree with you on a microeconomic level.
However, when the current administration cuts off avenues of supply by eliminating certain transnational pipelines, pursues policies that reduce opportunities for tapping and shipping new supplies of crude oil and uses its regulatory powers to discourage refining investment, then yes, the CAGR in gasoline prices rests squarely on the Administration's shoulders.
Look no further than the Administration's use of the Strategic Petroleum reserve to stabilize prices as Exhibit "A" in the government's direct efforts to manipulate the price of gasoline.
You cannot legislate an end to America's gasoline addiction. Using the SPR is clear evidence that this is a fact!
Gasoline in 2024 is the optimal fuel for personal ground transportation. While we can be dreamy about what we might be able to do with electricity, hydrogen and other renewable sources, none offers the range, efficiency and flexibility that gasoline does today. To put it in an economic sense, there does not exist in 2024 a perfect substitute for gasoline. We need to keep trying but that's a long way off!
Without gasoline, life as we know it would be impossible!
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Fluff
There is no better evidence in judging life than observing life around you. The smartest business people I know have some of the simplest methods for judging the economy. Hell, Warren Buffet watches the sales of men’s underwear as a guide on the economy. But, I know you are far more sophisticated in your knowledge of the economy.
Yeah. You ain’t Warren Buffet.
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TSmith
I am happy that you feel we are in a strong economy and you have not had any hardships, concerns over cost of living and prosperity. That said, there might be people in our country that have not been so lucky and those are people I am concerned for their well being.
Like I mentioned to 4ever, I hope there are 10’s of millions of people out there today spending as much money as possible driving the economy. Only a fxxkin idiot would not want a strong economy.
Huh. Sounded to me like you were worried about the plight of high net worth individuals that had to forego purchasing new luxury automobiles. But it's the little guys you are worried about.
That's nice.
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Ordinarily, I might agree with you on a microeconomic level.
However, when the current administration cuts off avenues of supply by eliminating certain transnational pipelines, pursues policies that reduce opportunities for tapping and shipping new supplies of crude oil and uses its regulatory powers to discourage refining investment, then yes, the CAGR in gasoline prices rests squarely on the Administration's shoulders.
Sigh.
United States produces more crude oil than any country, ever
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61545#:~:text=Crude%20oil%20production%20in%20the,than%2013.3%20million%20b%2Fd.
"Crude oil production in the United States, including condensate, averaged 12.9 million barrels per day (b/d) in 2023, breaking the previous U.S. and global record of 12.3 million b/d, set in 2019. Average monthly U.S. crude oil production established a monthly record high in December 2023 at more than 13.3 million b/d.-- Mar 11, 2024"
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Rico
Great call. Uncle Julio’s at Brookfield Square. If you decide to dine there, bring your own Corona and wine, because they were out of stock last night. It might be a good idea to bring along your own staff as well.
I do realize that you would not slum it by going there, but just in case I wanted to give you fair warning. FYI, if you seeing a guy outside burning $250 that would be me, it would be a better use of the money than I experienced last night.
So maybe it not being well run rather than the economy was the reason it was empty.
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Sigh.
United States produces more crude oil than any country, ever
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61545#:~:text=Crude%20oil%20production%20in%20the,than%2013.3%20million%20b%2Fd.
"Crude oil production in the United States, including condensate, averaged 12.9 million barrels per day (b/d) in 2023, breaking the previous U.S. and global record of 12.3 million b/d, set in 2019. Average monthly U.S. crude oil production established a monthly record high in December 2023 at more than 13.3 million b/d.-- Mar 11, 2024"
But is it enough?
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So maybe it not being well run rather than the economy was the reason it was empty.
No. A popular Mexican restaurant that wasn't actually that popular, was staffed poorly, provided a bad experience and was a waste of money proves that the economy really isn't doing as well as the macroeconomic numbers would indicate.
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TSmith
I guess my point was that if wealthy people are cutting back that others might be as well. More importantly, those that are less fortunate could be suffering if that is the case.
You can believe whatever you want to believe and take my words anyway you chose to take them. There is not a day that goes by that I do not thank God for my life and pray for those that are struggling, either with mental illness, health, financial hardship or any hardship in their lives. I am far more concerned for anyone experiencing struggles in life over spending cutbacks of the wealthy.
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But is it enough?
I'd check with the oil & gas companies who have over 6,000 approved permits that they aren't using.
Why? Because it isn't economically feasible for them to develop them at current and projected crude prices. They aren't dummies.
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Fluff
Your original post was correct, I am dumb. I will go one step further, I am so fxxkin stupid that I believed I could have an opinion that could be stated and not be ridiculed. It is strange, but I do not believe that I have insulted or ridiculed anyone that has a different take on the economy. Like I said, I appreciate other opinions and like to learn from them.
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Fluff
There is no better evidence in judging life than observing life around you. The smartest business people I know have some of the simplest methods for judging the economy. Hell, Warren Buffet watches the sales of men’s underwear as a guide on the economy. But, I know you are far more sophisticated in your knowledge of the economy.
Agreed. I am making a college visit/open house with my high school junior. The school we are visiting had there all time biggest freshmen class last year. They no longer have dorm space for their sophomores and above.
I cut short the family spring break in order to attend this. Wandering around downtown Baltimore, Annapolis, Alexandria, the streets and the shops were active on weekdays, in the rain, in an off week for their tourism. Traffic jams are the norm, as so many people were racing to and from work or appointments.
I see businesses opening and closing. My neighborhood is empty on weekdays, except for other retirees. Everyone of working age is working. Home Depot/Lowes are out the door on the weekends, as home projects are still happening.
There are headwinds. There always are. Wars. Pandemics. Big boats hitting bridges. The true American secret is resilience. Figuring it out and fighting through.
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tower
Good stuff there. I hope your high school junior considers attending MU, I believe they would welcome another student into their incoming class.
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I'd check with the oil & gas companies who have over 6,000 approved permits that they aren't using.
Why? Because it isn't economically feasible for them to develop them at current and projected crude prices.
And a reminder that oil is a global market and that the U.S. alone doesn't control supply or demand.
Oil prices just rose above $90 — here's how they could get to $100
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/oil-prices-just-rose-above-90--heres-how-they-could-get-to-100-152901669.html?.tsrc=372&segment_id=330379&bt_user_id=lgs71KzEcT97NuUqbH2KpaJSMZjF3CC56WmSdiTYzmDQsA92WghljpbXwh9EZvfD88haV6tHd9G64X26qxB5vCu8wat5s3WcjgOzVqSSjVPQ%2BGBG7Q4b3ObjNzduAWBH&bt_ts=1712397634803
"West Texas Intermediate (CL=F) futures were trading above $86 while Brent (BZ=F) rose above $91 per barrel, their highest levels since October. The international benchmark futures rose more than 1% in the prior session, closing above the key level of $90 amid signs of an escalation in the Middle East.
“There are a lot of geopolitical reasons to be concerned about supply risks," Claudio Galimberti, senior vice president at Rystad Energy, told Yahoo Finance this week of oil's upward price trend.
Galimberti points to continued production cuts from oil alliance OPEC+ and Ukrainian drone attacks on Russian refineries as the major catalysts pushing prices toward $100 in the next few months.
“Russia is a major oil producer. So the moment you have potentially 500,000, [or] a million barrels a day temporarily impacted — this is when you can see oil prices notch up potentially another $5, $10, and then you are in triple digits,” said Galimberti.
To be sure, the analyst notes that ample spare capacity, or the ability to pump more oil in the Middle East, could help keep a lid on prices."
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I'd check with the oil & gas companies who have over 6,000 approved permits that they aren't using.
Why? Because it isn't economically feasible for them to develop them at current and projected crude prices.
Just because there is lower supply doesn’t immediately mean that it’s because of challenges getting it to consumers. Industries hold back supply to drive price constantly.
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Fluff
Your original post was correct, I am dumb. I will go one step further, I am so fxxkin stupid that I believed I could have an opinion that could be stated and not be ridiculed. It is strange, but I do not believe that I have insulted or ridiculed anyone that has a different take on the economy. Like I said, I appreciate other opinions and like to learn from them.
Apparently you haven’t.
Personal anecdotes about a random Mexican restaurant is a nonsense way to determine if the economy stinks.
I mean I took my wife to breakfast this morning, and there was a wait list. Ergo the economy is great! Right?
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https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/california-renewable-energy-100-percent-grid/
California powered by nothing but renewables for a good part of the last month.
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Renewables coming online rapidly, but still need to go much faster.
Renewable Energy Shatters Records in the U.S.
The U.S. has never had as much wind, solar and hydropower. But experts say it’s not enough to meet future electricity demand
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/renewable-energy-shatters-records-in-the-u-s/
"Wind and solar accounted for 76 percent of electricity production in Texas’ primary power grid last Friday. The next day, New England set its own record, with 45 percent of its power coming from wind, solar and hydropower.
Wind generated almost twice the electricity as coal last year on the grid managed by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which serves about 90 percent of the state's power demand. Rooftop solar regularly tops generation in New England on sunny days.
But whether renewables can continue to grow at the rate needed to drive down emissions and meet an expected spike in electricity demand is an open question. The Rhodium Group, an energy modeling firm, estimates the U.S. needs to install between 32 GW and 95 GW of new wind and solar capacity every year through 2035 in order to cut emissions 32 percent to 51 percent compared to 2005 levels.
“From a climate perspective these records are great, but they are still not enough to get emissions down to the level we want,” said Melissa Lott, a professor who studies the power sector at Columbia University’s Climate School."
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Renewables coming online rapidly, but still need to go much faster.
Renewable Energy Shatters Records in the U.S.
The U.S. has never had as much wind, solar and hydropower. But experts say it’s not enough to meet future electricity demand
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/renewable-energy-shatters-records-in-the-u-s/
"Wind and solar accounted for 76 percent of electricity production in Texas’ primary power grid last Friday. The next day, New England set its own record, with 45 percent of its power coming from wind, solar and hydropower.
Wind generated almost twice the electricity as coal last year on the grid managed by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which serves about 90 percent of the state's power demand. Rooftop solar regularly tops generation in New England on sunny days.
But whether renewables can continue to grow at the rate needed to drive down emissions and meet an expected spike in electricity demand is an open question. The Rhodium Group, an energy modeling firm, estimates the U.S. needs to install between 32 GW and 95 GW of new wind and solar capacity every year through 2035 in order to cut emissions 32 percent to 51 percent compared to 2005 levels.
“From a climate perspective these records are great, but they are still not enough to get emissions down to the level we want,” said Melissa Lott, a professor who studies the power sector at Columbia University’s Climate School."
That's great, but how many million acres of land are now blighted by ugly solar farms and windmills. It makes me sick. How about a few more nice, compact nuke or coal power plants? If we measure MW/acre, those are much more efficient, plus they always work.
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That's great, but how many million acres of land are now blighted by ugly solar farms and windmills. It makes me sick. How about a few more nice, compact nuke or coal power plants? If we measure MW/acre, those are much more efficient, plus they always work.
Have you ever seen a coal mine?
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That's great, but how many million acres of land are now blighted by ugly solar farms and windmills. It makes me sick. How about a few more nice, compact nuke or coal power plants? If we measure MW/acre, those are much more efficient, plus they always work.
“If you wanted to power the entire United States with solar panels, it would take a fairly small corner of Nevada or Texas or Utah,” he explained. “You only need about 100 miles by 100 miles of solar panels to power the entire United States…. The batteries you [would] need to store the energy, so you have 24/7 power, is 1 mile by 1 mile. One square-mile.”
That’s just 101 square miles, or as Elon says, “a little square on the U.S. map.” To put this into perspective, that’s about 10% of the 1045 square-mile area of Rhode Island, the smallest U.S. state—although admittedly the desert Southwest has better insolation than New England."
https://inovateus.com/how-many-square-miles-of-solar-panels-would-it-take-to-power-the-u-s-its-smaller-than-you-think/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CIf%20you%20wanted%20to%20power,power%20the%20entire%20United%20States%E2%80%A6.
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That's great, but how many million acres of land are now blighted by ugly solar farms and windmills. It makes me sick. How about a few more nice, compact nuke or coal power plants? If we measure MW/acre, those are much more efficient, plus they always work.
Well seems like you have all the answers, and 20 years, and billions in capex for something that isn’t very profitable.
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Have you ever seen a coal mine?
Been in hundreds of them, all over the world. Most reclaim as they go these days, returning the land to it's prior state or better when the mine is finished.
Also been in some bad ones, and they are a blight equal to the wind and solar farms... but much smaller.
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Blight. The only good thing about driving into NW Ohio is seeing windmills rising up out of the otherwise featureless farmland.
I look at a cloverleaf ramp on an interstate and wonder why they don't have solar panels in the wasteland inside the loop. Or on the roofs covering the pumps at gas stations. Or on the roofs of those buildings at the oases on the Ohio turnpike. Imagine powering the chargers with solar generated on site. Otherwise unused roofs on skyscrapers. So, one person's blight is another's opportunity.
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Musk lays off 10% of Tesla's workforce.
https://seekingalpha.com/news/4089502-tesla-confirms-layoffs-of-more-than-10-of-its-global-workforce
But don't worry. He can always sell more TSLA to keep the lights on at the social media company he overpaid for and didn't actually want.
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I will say, I'm shocked at the ire windmills and solar farms draw from those in the midwest.
This happened near my childhood hometown, nobody was hurt, or even close to getting hurt, but the response was:
https://www.13abc.com/2024/01/23/all-one-energy-wind-turbines-shut-down-after-blade-falls-off-turbine-findlay/
she’s worried about her kids’ safety in the future.
“It’s a huge safety hazard, I don’t want my kids growing up around this,”
::)
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I get it. When you now have this instead of the previous countryside it can look "blighted."
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8827395,-88.2624498,3a,65.5y,218.21h,83.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJjxbJx0kYMEKhU0tpDGZgQ!2e0!7i3328!8i1664?hl=en&entry=ttu
That being said, that doesn't mean its bad for society to "blight" certain areas for the sake of energy generation. I would rather have that, than this:
(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/journaltimes.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/a/b8/ab8b69ae-d766-5421-abf0-10869fdc8163/5fa5d481f373f.image.jpg?resize=750%2C500)
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I will say, I'm shocked at the ire windmills and solar farms draw from those in the midwest.
This happened near my childhood hometown, nobody was hurt, or even close to getting hurt, but the response was:
https://www.13abc.com/2024/01/23/all-one-energy-wind-turbines-shut-down-after-blade-falls-off-turbine-findlay/
::)
Right?
No safety hazards are all with other forms of energy generation.
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Right?
No safety hazards are all with other forms of energy generation.
Nobody has ever been killed by coal, nor has any animal.
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Nobody has ever been killed by coal, nor has any animal.
A lot of people are killed each year in unreported solar leaks and wind spills. They just don't want you to know about it. The real studies show this, but They have repressed them-won't let them be published. The real numbers will come out, any day now.
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Blight. The only good thing about driving into NW Ohio is seeing windmills rising up out of the otherwise featureless farmland.
I look at a cloverleaf ramp on an interstate and wonder why they don't have solar panels in the wasteland inside the loop. Or on the roofs covering the pumps at gas stations. Or on the roofs of those buildings at the oases on the Ohio turnpike. Imagine powering the chargers with solar generated on site. Otherwise unused roofs on skyscrapers. So, one person's blight is another's opportunity.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for solar on rooftops and anywhere else that's possible. I struggle when it's suddenly more important than farmland or open space.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm all for solar on rooftops and anywhere else that's possible. I struggle when it's suddenly more important than farmland or open space.
You can grow native prairie underneath solar, way better use of land than monoculture corn for federally subsidized ethanol production.
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I will say, I'm shocked at the ire windmills and solar farms draw from those in the midwest.
This happened near my childhood hometown, nobody was hurt, or even close to getting hurt, but the response was:
https://www.13abc.com/2024/01/23/all-one-energy-wind-turbines-shut-down-after-blade-falls-off-turbine-findlay/
::)
Lots of effective propaganda. Those coal and steel jobs ain’t coming back. But windmill techs are the fastest growing job in America not requiring a 4 year degree. In predominantly rural areas.
Too woke though
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Lots of effective propaganda. Those coal and steel jobs ain’t coming back. But windmill techs are the fastest growing job in America not requiring a 4 year degree. In predominantly rural areas.
Too woke though
I don't care how much money they offered me, I would never take a job servicing one of those whale murdering machines in west Texas.
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I don't care how much money they offered me, I would never take a job servicing one of those whale murdering machines in west Texas.
I think you misunderstood, that's not what whale hunters are doing in San Antonio.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm all for solar on rooftops and anywhere else that's possible. I struggle when it's suddenly more important than farmland or open space.
my home in Az came with roof top solar. my neighbor hates when he sees the electric meter zooming backwards as he checks our place while we are gone; racking up the $$ we get back from power company. so he's getting solar placed on his roof now and he's a life long Arizonian
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my home in Az came with roof top solar. my neighbor hates when he sees the electric meter zooming backwards as he checks our place while we are gone; racking up the $$ we get back from power company. so he's getting solar placed on his roof now and he's a life long Arizonian
Does your utility actually send you money? I got a quote for installing last year, but CO (Xcel) just credits you the kWh you produce on your bill**. I already have a large negative balance because of a heat pump install credit, so I need to wait about another year until that gets used up.
** There is apparently an option for cash-out at the end of every year, but it's also only the "wholesale" rate. Plus, I have exclusively electric heat, so December pay out vs Dec solar production makes no sense in CO.
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You can grow native prairie underneath solar, way better use of land than monoculture corn for federally subsidized ethanol production.
A comparatively small portion of U.S. corn becomes ethanol. Much more becomes steaks, roasts, burgers, fried chicken, sausage, hams, etc.
Where's the beef?
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A comparatively small portion of U.S. corn becomes ethanol. Much more becomes steaks, roasts, burgers, fried chicken, sausage, hams, etc.
Where's the beef?
29.6% is small?
https://ncga.com/world-of-corn-iframe/#corn-usage-by-segment
(https://ncga.com/world-of-corn-iframe/charts/corn-usage-by-segment_23.svg)
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A comparatively small portion of U.S. corn becomes ethanol. Much more becomes steaks, roasts, burgers, fried chicken, sausage, hams, etc.
Where's the beef?
This google bit says 40%
https://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/pub-details/?pubid=105761#:~:text=Ethanol%20manufacturers%20use%20about%2040,the%20domestic%20transportation%20fuel%20market. (https://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/pub-details/?pubid=105761#:~:text=Ethanol%20manufacturers%20use%20about%2040,the%20domestic%20transportation%20fuel%20market.)
Ethanol manufacturers use about 40 percent of the U.S. corn crop for ethanol and related co-products, with the majority of the ethanol being consumed in the domestic transportation fuel market.
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And to wonder why a corn farm might go solar (I don't have a good way to double check these figures):
https://smallbiztrends.com/solar-farm-income-per-acre/
On average, reports suggest that a solar farm can generate between $21,250 and $42,500 per acre annually. However, these figures can fluctuate based on the specific circumstances of each solar farm.
Vs...
https://www.farmprogress.com/commentary/crops-look-profitable-for-2023
For corn, the baseline’s 2023 yields of 181.5 bushels per acre and $5.70 average cash price received spells revenues of $1034.
Solar is much more profitable. I think I'd put up panels too!
edit: Yes, I know profit is not quite accurate, since I don't have those numbers. But even household break-even on solar is 8-10 years, with a 25+ year expected panel life. I'd expect break-even on a large installation to be even less.
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I think you misunderstood, that's not what whale hunters are doing in San Antonio.
Shout out Charles Barkley
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Shout out Charles Barkley
(https://media.tenor.com/N9-4JI0b-SEAAAAM/barkley-charles-barkley.gif)
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You can grow corn under wind turbines and get annuity payments for the land usage too.
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Does your utility actually send you money? I got a quote for installing last year, but CO (Xcel) just credits you the kWh you produce on your bill**. I already have a large negative balance because of a heat pump install credit, so I need to wait about another year until that gets used up.
** There is apparently an option for cash-out at the end of every year, but it's also only the "wholesale" rate. Plus, I have exclusively electric heat, so December pay out vs Dec solar production makes no sense in CO.
no cash back, but credit off our bills moving forward. so some months our bill is like $3.00 or something. this essentially pays for us to heat pool and for free as the heater runs off of electric and not directly from the roof as some seem to think.
heat the pool you may think? we are down there a lot from November thru February. as some of the night time temps can get to freezing or below, then 80-85-90 during the day, we want to use the pool and hot tub. we haven't been down there much if at all june-august, but i've heard people will actually put ice blocks into their pools in order to cool them down enough to make them refreshing. our pool heater will actually reverse heat and cool the pool down if needed.
the house came with a leased system when we bought 6 years ago. it was owned by Tesla. not sure if any relationship with car company. our lease payment is like $40/month, but last year they came by and replaced all the panels with more energy efficient ones=win/win for "free"
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no cash back, but credit off our bills moving forward. so some months our bill is like $3.00 or something. this essentially pays for us to heat pool and for free as the heater runs off of electric and not directly from the roof as some seem to think.
heat the pool you may think?
Hah, I get it. I've been to the desert in winter, nights get chilly!
Sounds like the system works like here. In CO, I'd generate a lot of extra kWh "credits" during the summer, and use most of them for heating in the winter. The way they were going to size the system, I'd likely never have to pay for electric again (120% of my previous years usage).
Upfront cost is a bit high, but value of the house increases almost the same amount, and as I mentioned, will pay for itself (literally) in 8-10 years. Haven't looked at leasing, though I suppose I should.
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From Seeking Alpha:
There are anecdotal reports that Tesla has delayed some Cybertruck deliveries. There are also videos being circulated on the Cybertruck Owners Club forum about certain issues with the accelerator pedal.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm all for solar on rooftops and anywhere else that's possible. I struggle when it's suddenly more important than farmland or open space.
Then you're a dunce. The US has an abundance of farmland, and we grow far more food than we need.
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Does your utility actually send you money? I got a quote for installing last year, but CO (Xcel) just credits you the kWh you produce on your bill**. I already have a large negative balance because of a heat pump install credit, so I need to wait about another year until that gets used up.
** There is apparently an option for cash-out at the end of every year, but it's also only the "wholesale" rate. Plus, I have exclusively electric heat, so December pay out vs Dec solar production makes no sense in CO.
I thought they were legally obligated to pay you out.
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I thought they were legally obligated to pay you out.
For solar production? That may vary by state. As mentioned, I *would* have that option (once, annually), but the payout is very low compared to retail electric rates vs a 1-1 kW credit if taken ...as credits.
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Analysts, always late to the game, are now finally downgrading TSLA stock as its price falls toward $150.
I read a good line on social media today:
Half the country hates EVs, and the other half hates Elon Musk.
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Analysts, always late to the game, are now finally downgrading TSLA stock as its price falls toward $150.
I read a good line on social media today:
Half the country hates EVs, and the other half hates Elon Musk.
"Sorry Tesla workers, we need to lay off 14,000 of you to make the company more competitive. And also, shareholders need to vote to give me a $56B pay package after the courts struck down my $47B pay package. Thanks."
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"Sorry Tesla workers, we need to lay off 14,000 of you to make the company more competitive. And also, shareholders need to vote to give me a $56B pay package after the courts struck down my $47B pay package. Thanks."
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/044/369/elon-musk-rt-gmh-230207_1675807984906_hpMain_16x9_992.jpg)
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Analysts, always late to the game, are now finally downgrading TSLA stock as its price falls toward $150.
I read a good line on social media today:
Half the country hates EVs, and the other half hates Elon Musk.
I don't think its that they are late to the game, they need to wait till their bank or firm has closed their TSLA longs or gotten short positions in place. The days of upgrades/downgrades being anything more than biased/monied momentum shift tools is long gone, IMO.
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"Sorry Tesla workers, we need to lay off 14,000 of you to make the company more competitive. And also, shareholders need to vote to give me a $56B pay package after the courts struck down my $47B pay package. Thanks."
This is a play to secure job security right? Issue him more stock control?
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"Sorry Tesla workers, we need to lay off 14,000 of you to make the company more competitive. And also, shareholders need to vote to give me a $56B pay package after the courts struck down my $47B pay package. Thanks."
sometimes that's business. it might actually give the stock a little short term boost
businesses are also figuring out the gubmint can't force people to buy things they don't want or cannot afford
I also saw this coming a couple of months ago and sold my Tesla stock accordingly...one of the few times I can honestly say that I timed one right
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https://x.com/phil_lewis_/status/1781294777830432868?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
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https://x.com/phil_lewis_/status/1781294777830432868?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
Wonder if they will recall them all for rusting if it rains.
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https://x.com/phil_lewis_/status/1781294777830432868?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
If the cybertruck looks like the brainchild of an emotionally stunted 12-year-old boy, it's because it is.
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https://x.com/phil_lewis_/status/1781294777830432868?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
3,878 sold. 3,878 being recalled. Who says Elon ain't perfect?!?!
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A neighbor has one. It looks like someone painted a rat rod
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One of the guys I golf with ordered a new Tesla today. Made fun of him for driving an EV but congratulated him on owning the LIBS
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From the Wall Street Journal:
For years, the biggest cohort of Tesla's buyers, politically speaking, has been Democrats. But when Elon Musk took a hard turn last fall, they didn’t follow him. The proportion of Democrats buying Teslas fell by more than 60%, according to car buyers surveyed in October and November by researcher Strategic Vision. Tesla has since made up ground with blue buyers, but the dramatic drop highlights the risk hanging over Tesla with an increasingly political CEO, writes the WSJ's Tim Higgins. All eyes will be on the carmaker's earnings report later this week, as investors scrutinize how it is contending with a slowing EV market.
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A neighbor has one. It looks like someone painted a rat rod
The ones that I have seen are all modded. Honestly, have not seen one that is stock metal color. Wrapped seems to be the most common.
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My neighbors is white. That’s the only one I’ve seen.
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Just saw a report on NBC Nightly News that EVs lose their value 10 times faster than gas powered vehicles. On average, over 30% in year one. I assume Lester Holt wasn’t lying to me so I’ll ask the obvious question - why?
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Just saw a report on NBC Nightly News that EVs lose their value 10 times faster than gas powered vehicles. On average, over 30% in year one. I assume Lester Holt wasn’t lying to me so I’ll ask the obvious question - why?
Technology leaps
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Just saw a report on NBC Nightly News that EVs lose their value 10 times faster than gas powered vehicles. On average, over 30% in year one. I assume Lester Holt wasn’t lying to me so I’ll ask the obvious question - why?
Besides the technology leaps, who wants to invest in a used $25K battery?
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Besides the technology leaps, who wants to invest in a used $25K battery?
Who wants to invest in a used engine?
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Who wants to invest in a used engine?
Resale values are very high…so, lots of people.
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Just saw a report on NBC Nightly News that EVs lose their value 10 times faster than gas powered vehicles. On average, over 30% in year one. I assume Lester Holt wasn’t lying to me so I’ll ask the obvious question - why?
Early adapters tend not to want old things.
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Early adapters tend not to want old things.
And tend to make poor investments.
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Resale values are very high…so, lots of people.
I think that's pretty make/model/age dependent.
Regardless, there is nothing "bad" about buying a used EV/battery
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I think that's pretty make/model/age dependent.
Regardless, there is nothing "bad" about buying a used EV/battery
No, apparently they’re a steal. Buying a new one is the dumb move.
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And tend to make poor investments.
Says who?
If being first with the new iPhone or Tesla brings a person joy, and is something they can afford, who's to say it's a poor investment?
If you want to buy a Honda Accord because it'll have great resale value in eight years, that's cool. But not everyone has to value the same things.
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Says who?
If being first with the new iPhone or Tesla brings a person joy, and is something they can afford, who's to say it's a poor investment?
If you want to buy a Honda Accord because it'll have great resale value in eight years, that's cool. But not everyone has to value the same things.
???
How one SPENDS his money is his own business. People who want to SPEND theirs on EVs, private jets or islands in the middle of nowhere because it brings them joy should by all means do it. But buying something because you think it’s cool or fun doesn’t make it a good INVESTMENT. And if it does the same thing as something else but depreciates 10x faster - by definition it’s a poor investment.
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Is a vehicle ever a good investment? Aren't they all bad investments - depreciating assets?
If you lease or buy and drive till it dies, does resale matter?
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Is a vehicle ever a good investment? Aren't they all bad investments - depreciating assets?
If you lease or buy and drive till it dies, does resale matter?
Don’t be obtuse. Of course they depreciate over time and with use. Say you pay 50,000 for an EV or an ICE. A year later, with the same amount of use, the EV’s value is 30,000 and the ICE’s is 48,000. If you can’t tell me which investment was the better one I don’t know what to say - except that in a perfect world you would have stood next to me in the pits on the floor of the CBOE for however long your short lived career would have lasted.
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Don’t be obtuse. Of course they depreciate over time and with use. Say you pay 50,000 for an EV or an ICE. A year later, with the same amount of use, the EV’s value is 30,000 and the ICE’s is 48,000. If you can’t tell me which investment was the better one I don’t know what to say - except that in a perfect world you would have stood next to me in the pits on the floor of the CBOE for however long your short lived career would have lasted.
You didn't answer his questions. Using the term "investment" doesn't make much sense because its a terrible one no matter which one you buy. IF you resell or trade in your cars often, then purchasing one car versus another makes some sense, but I wouldn't call that an investment. It simply retains value better.
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You didn't answer his questions. Using the term "investment" doesn't make much sense because its a terrible one no matter which one you buy. IF you resell or trade in your cars often, then purchasing one car versus another makes some sense, but I wouldn't call that an investment. It simply retains value better.
An investment that (after usage) loses 3% after a year is a better one (or a less bad one if you prefer) than on that (after the same usage) loses 30%. Unless you are just trying to be pedantic that shouldn’t be difficult to grasp.
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???
How one SPENDS his money is his own business. People who want to SPEND theirs on EVs, private jets or islands in the middle of nowhere because it brings them joy should by all means do it. But buying something because you think it’s cool or fun doesn’t make it a good INVESTMENT. And if it does the same thing as something else but depreciates 10x faster - by definition it’s a poor investment.
Is the value of an investment determined solely by the financial return?
If I, for example, invest in golf lessons, it'll never earn me a dime. But it may make playing much more enjoyable. Have I foolishly frittered away my hard-earned cash if those lessons don't land me on the tour, or at least pay off with substantial Bingo Bango Bongo wins?
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An investment that (after usage) loses 3% after a year is a better one (or a less bad one if you prefer) than on that (after the same usage) loses 30%. Unless you are just trying to be pedantic that shouldn’t be difficult to grasp.
Unless you plan on neither selling nor trading them in. Then it’s pretty irrelevant.
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Is the value of an investment determined solely by the financial return?
If I, for example, invest in golf lessons, it'll never earn me a dime. But it may make playing much more enjoyable. Have I foolishly frittered away my hard-earned cash if those lessons don't land me on the tour, or at least pay off with substantial Bingo Bango Bongo wins?
You’re being intentionally obtuse, too, but for the sake of argument I’ll play your game.
If you have two options as your golf teacher who will provide you with the same basic information and after a year option A cost you $2,000 and option B cost you 10x A or $20,000, then yes, option A is absolutely better from an investment standpoint.But if you’re not concerned with the investment aspect and the $18,000 extra you’re spending brings you joy because you like the way golf pro B looks and makes you feel, by all means go for it.
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You’re being intentionally obtuse, too, but for the sake of argument I’ll play your game.
If you have two options as your golf teacher who will provide you with the same basic information and after a year option A cost you $2,000 and option B cost you 10x A or $20,000, then yes, option A is absolutely better from an investment standpoint.But if you’re not concerned with the investment aspect and the $18,000 extra you’re spending brings you joy because you like the way golf pro B looks and makes you feel, by all means go for it.
That’s not the same thing at all.
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I think we’ve fallen into one of these Lenny’s Doom Loops.
1. Says something dumb
2. Someone asks why he said something dumb
3. Doesn’t want to admit he said something dumb.
4. See #1
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Unless you plan on neither selling nor trading them in. Then it’s pretty irrelevant.
Sure. If you’re leasing the equation changes.
But this discussion was about buying new and very few buyers of new cars buy with the idea that they’ll drive it until it stops running.
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I think we’ve fallen into one of these Lenny’s Doom Loops.
1. Says something dumb
2. Someone asks why he said something dumb
3. Doesn’t want to admit he said something dumb.
4. See #1
I don’t know whether you’re hopelessly stupid or just being an a$$hole. Doesn’t make much difference, anyway.
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I don’t know whether you’re hopelessly stupid or just being an a$$hole. Doesn’t make much difference, anyway.
#3 but on the road to #4.
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You’re being intentionally obtuse, too, but for the sake of argument I’ll play your game.
If you have two options as your golf teacher who will provide you with the same basic information and after a year option A cost you $2,000 and option B cost you 10x A or $20,000, then yes, option A is absolutely better from an investment standpoint.But if you’re not concerned with the investment aspect and the $18,000 extra you’re spending brings you joy because you like the way golf pro B looks and makes you feel, by all means go for it.
I'm not being obtuse. I'm suggesting the same thing I suggested in my initial post ... that the value of an investment might go beyond only its financial return.
And rather than answer my question, you dodged it with an absurd hypothetical.
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Don’t be obtuse. Of course they depreciate over time and with use. Say you pay 50,000 for an EV or an ICE. A year later, with the same amount of use, the EV’s value is 30,000 and the ICE’s is 48,000. If you can’t tell me which investment was the better one I don’t know what to say - except that in a perfect world you would have stood next to me in the pits on the floor of the CBOE for however long your short lived career would have lasted.
LOL. Let us know how it goes when you take your one year old car back to the dealer to trade it in and discover how terribly wrong your figures are.
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Very few buyers of new cars buy with the idea that they’ll drive it until it stops running.
If I purchase a car, I'm driving it until either someone blasts the daylights out of it, or it basically dies on me. Dadgummit, I want my money's worth!
Foe example:
1975 Chevy Nova -- 125,000 miles. Sold because I didn't need it anymore.
1981 Buick Skylak -- GM "X" Car. Absolute piece of crap, fell apart at 65,000.
1987 Ford Taurus -- Traded at 90,000 miles for a Mark VIII. OK car but didn't want the lack of reliability at the time.
1994 Lincoln Mark VIII -- 153,000 miles and the air bag suspension failed.
2005 Nissan Maxima -- 86,000 miles. Kept it until I was blasted by a woman who ran a stop light.
2008 VW Eos -- Still going strong, 103,000 miles. Great toy.
2011 Buick Enclave -- 156,000 miles -- Kept it until the transmission, computer and air conditioning gave out.
2012 Buick LaCrosse -- 86,000 miles. Kept until my wife said we had too many cars. Sold for $11,000.
2015 BMW 5 Series -- 50,300 miles. Will have for another decade.
2023 Nissan Murano -- leased, 9,000 miles. Overpriced residual. Unless Nissan negotiates, will be gone at the end of the lease and we will purchase the same car at a lower price. Should last 150,000 miles.
So people do hold for the car's lifetime. That's the only way I buy new (or gently used).
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If I purchase a car, I'm driving it until either someone blasts the daylights out of it, or it basically dies on me. Dadgummit, I want my money's worth!
Foe example:
1975 Chevy Nova -- 125,000 miles. Sold because I didn't need it anymore.
1981 Buick Skylak -- GM "X" Car. Absolute piece of crap, fell apart at 65,000.
1987 Ford Taurus -- Traded at 90,000 miles for a Mark VIII. OK car but didn't want the lack of reliability at the time.
1994 Lincoln Mark VIII -- 153,000 miles and the air bag suspension failed.
2005 Nissan Maxima -- 86,000 miles. Kept it until I was blasted by a woman who ran a stop light.
2008 VW Eos -- Still going strong, 103,000 miles. Great toy.
2011 Buick Enclave -- 156,000 miles -- Kept it until the transmission, computer and air conditioning gave out.
2012 Buick LaCrosse -- 86,000 miles. Kept until my wife said we had too many cars. Sold for $11,000.
2015 BMW 5 Series -- 50,300 miles. Will have for another decade.
2023 Nissan Murano -- leased, 9,000 miles. Overpriced residual. Unless Nissan negotiates, will be gone at the end of the lease and we will purchase the same car at a lower price. Should last 150,000 miles.
So people do hold for the car's lifetime. That's the only way I buy new (or gently used).
I buy a new car every six months.
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Lenny,
So you think some scoopers would have been BBQ chicken on the trading floor?
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I buy a new car every six months.
Thank you for your contribution to there U.S. Economy!
The UAW thanks you.
The National Automobile Dealers Association thanks you.
The government when're you buy your car thanks you for the sales tax revenue.
Etc.
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I'm not being obtuse. I'm suggesting the same thing I suggested in my initial post ... that the value of an investment might go beyond only its financial return.
And rather than answer my question, you dodged it with an absurd hypothetical.
I answered your question earlier. If you refuse to acknowledge that there’s a difference between spend and invest what’s left to say. You wanted to pick a stupid fight and you did. Good for you.
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LOL. Let us know how it goes when you take your one year old car back to the dealer to trade it in and discover how terribly wrong your figures are.
Tell your story to NBC news and Lester Holt. They’re the ones who reported that EVs lose 10 times more in value after year one than ICE vehicles.
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Lenny,
So you think some scoopers would have been BBQ chicken on the trading floor?
Goose
Finger lickin good.
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Lenny,
So you think some scoopers would have been BBQ chicken on the trading floor?
Weird comment.
Equating the purchase of a car with investment into commodities is funny. But this is where Lenny's Doom Loop has taken him. He has to make this absurd comparison (and have his boy Goose back him up) because of his initial illogical statement.
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So, Lenny doesn’t have a car or drives an older high mileage Corolla base model, no frills. That’s the only logicial conclusion if Lenny makes sense and is true to himself:
I realize a car is never an investment. Unless you buy certain vehicles and never drive them and can project demand into the future for certain rare cars.
Lenny’s logic:
1. The best “investment” is no car. Walk, bike, public transportation, Uber even multiple times a week when necessary. Rent a car for bigger trips. That is how you save money. Never buy a car. Set your life up to not need one.
2. If you must buy a car. Never buy new. Buy old (10-20 year plus) base models such as a Corolla, Prius, lower mileage. Best cost of ownership and lose little on resale value. If you care about cost of ownership and not only resale value buy the hybrid Corolla or Prius or an ev.
3. If buying new buy a base, no add ons, Corolla. If when you will sell you predict gas prices will be higher buy the Prius or hybrid Corolla. No add ons. Base stereo. No heated seats etc.
4. Don’t trade in your used car. Sell yourself to the end buyer. Disclaimer I always trade in or give away to a someone who. needs a car. Big loss. Dumb. But that’s me.
5. If it’s an investment you’d need to project the used value into the future and what demand and supply will be when trading in X number of years from now. Likely to be different than today. Especially considering when CA laws kick in.
6. Demand for ev’s outside USA is high. Will there be an over seas market kicking in if us prices stay low.
7. Any market that China has access to will kill all car values as they dump cheap cars. Don’t buy a car., always the default answer.
However, if your human and not completely logical, which is one and the same, resale value should be a factor if you will trade in and not keep the car long term. Illogical to not buy an used and run a car into the ground , but we are not logical.
If your me and you concern your self with multi factors, I’d buy a Tesla model 3 highland version. Wouldn’t even look at another car. I’d go on the internet and have it purchased in 5 minutes or less. Time is valuable. Cost of ownership is great and if gas prices don’t crash long term, it would be a value buy versus most gas vehicles even if the resale is lower - which is a question in 8 years - that I can’t project.
Will the resale value be less in 8 years than say a bmw, probably not. And projecting into the future it could be a lot higher depending on a lot of factors that I can’t control such as gas prices, tax credits going away etc. But really. The difference between trade in values at that point is minimal on the over all picture. Again, I should buy the base Corolla. Zero upgrades if the concern is to max out trade in. But then I should buy it used, an 1990 model and drive it until it has 500k miles in it or does; like Lenny does for his “investment”.
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Tell your story to NBC news and Lester Holt. They’re the ones who reported that EVs lose 10 times more in value after year one than ICE vehicles.
Which you know is incorrect but choose to use to…something?
Everyone who has ever owned a new ICE car knows they lose 20-25% of their value the second you drive it off the lot. So BEV cars lose 200-250%? Total nonsense which, again, you know.
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Weird comment.
Equating the purchase of a car with investment into commodities is funny. But this is where Lenny's Doom Loop has taken him. He has to make this absurd comparison (and have his boy Goose back him up) because of his initial illogical statement.
First, commodities aren’t traded on the Chicago Board Options Exchange. Options (puts and calls) on listed stocks and indexes (S+P, VIX) are . Commodities were traded on the Board of Trade and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange back in my day. Now it’s just the CME.
Second, it’s neither complicated nor expensive weird if you can think it through. If you make your living trading anything based on true value then standing next to someone in the pit ill informed of the concept would be easy money.
But by all means keep on typing. Why should being a know nothing on the subject stop your pontificating? It’s why you’re a sultan.
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First, commodities aren’t traded on the Chicago Board Options Exchange. Options (puts and calls) on listed stocks and indexes (S+P, VIX) are . Commodities were traded on the Board of Trade and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange back in my day. Now it’s just the CME.
Second, it’s neither complicated nor expensive weird if you can think it through. If you make your living trading anything based on true value then standing next to someone in the pit ill informed of the concept would be easy money.
But by all means keep on typing. Why should being a know nothing on the subject stop your pontificating? It’s why you’re a sultan.
Keep doubling...tripling...down on a bad point. It won't get more right, but it will get more funny.
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Musk and his acolytes constantly prattle on about Tesla being much more than a car company. The Supercharger network, and its potential for hypergrowth, was gonna be one way to prove that it was more than a car company.
Yesterday, Musk dumped the entire department - from management down to the last worker. 500+ layoffs.
The guy demanding his $50B payday said it's all about cost reductions.
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One of the interesting and still generally unanswered questions is battery life.
If I maintain my traditional car with its internal combustion engine and the sweet small of gasoline, I can pretty much be assured of 10 years and at least 100,000 to 150,000 miles. If I'm a car geek and really maintain it, some think I can get 250,000+ miles from my little ole dinosaur.
Nowhere have I seen anyone saying electric cars will get that kind of life. Which means we better have a damn good recycling program for automobiles in this country or auto graveyards will be filling up fast.
Many of you EV fans are going to tell me that no one, possibly excepting me, keeps their cars that long. But it's not unusual for well-built ICE powered autos to go through two or three owners and 150,000 to 200,000 miles. My understanding is we're nowhere close to that with an EV.
There's environmental trade-offs for everything we do!
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Musk and his acolytes constantly prattle on about Tesla being much more than a car company. The Supercharger network, and its potential for hypergrowth, was gonna be one way to prove that it was more than a car company.
Yesterday, Musk dumped the entire department - from management down to the last worker. 500+ layoffs.
The guy demanding his $50B payday said it's all about cost reductions.
I find this one really baffling. The supercharging network is a space where Tesla clearly has a commanding lead, both technologically and from an adoption perspective. Yet:
"Musk told workers that Tesla "will continue to build out some new Supercharger locations, where critical, and finish those currently under construction."
Can't understand the business rationale here? Need capital for other projects like battery megafactory or new model designs?? (Or maybe to pay Russian troll farm for their work on Xitter?)
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Musk and his acolytes constantly prattle on about Tesla being much more than a car company. The Supercharger network, and its potential for hypergrowth, was gonna be one way to prove that it was more than a car company.
Yesterday, Musk dumped the entire department - from management down to the last worker. 500+ layoffs.
The guy demanding his $50B payday said it's all about cost reductions.
This basically puts a halt on opening up the supercharger network to further cars/brands.
Musk, again, took taxpayers money and is running away with it.
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One of the interesting and still generally unanswered questions is battery life.
If I maintain my traditional car with its internal combustion engine and the sweet small of gasoline, I can pretty much be assured of 10 years and at least 100,000 to 150,000 miles. If I'm a car geek and really maintain it, some think I can get 250,000+ miles from my little ole dinosaur.
Nowhere have I seen anyone saying electric cars will get that kind of life. Which means we better have a damn good recycling program for automobiles in this country or auto graveyards will be filling up fast.
Many of you EV fans are going to tell me that no one, possibly excepting me, keeps their cars that long. But it's not unusual for well-built ICE powered autos to go through two or three owners and 150,000 to 200,000 miles. My understanding is we're nowhere close to that with an EV.
There's environmental trade-offs for everything we do!
You're completely misinformed about EV battery life.
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Yes, a puzzler. The one place Tesla has a clear advantage and he walks away. Tesla's chargers had basically won, other automobile manufacturers were moving into them. And, if you want more EV's purchased, a better charging network is necessary. Odd.
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You're completely misinformed about EV battery life.
So you are telling me there is no difference in terms of potential life and trade-in value between my gasoline swilling car powered by an internal combustion engine and an electric vehicle?
That if I went to a Tesla store on Merritt Island or in Orlando tomorrow, they could legitimately represent that their cars with routine maintenance, including tire rotation and brake fluid changes, their vehicles will last for 150,000 to 250,000 miles, or more?
In a lab, maybe. But in the real world? I'm still doubting it.
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So you are telling me there is no difference in terms of potential life and trade-in value between my gasoline swilling car powered by an internal combustion engine and an electric vehicle?
That if I went to a Tesla store on Merritt Island or in Orlando tomorrow, they could legitimately represent that their cars with routine maintenance, including tire rotation and brake fluid changes, their vehicles will last for 150,000 to 250,000 miles, or more?
In a lab, maybe. But in the real world? I'm still doubting it.
There are numerous stories out there of Teslas surpassing 250,000 miles.
Here's one
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/this-2018-tesla-model-3-passed-the-300000-mile-mark-here-s-what-you-need-to-know-194534.html
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dgies
I heard the Carmax CEO talking on this subject on CNBC several months ago. He stated there were a lot of unknowns on the battery in resales of EV's and it is going to be a difficult market. I think there is going to be interesting times ahead in the EV resale market. We will see how much the hardcore EV folks are if their trade in value is much lower than expected.
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People are burying their heads in the sand if they think EV’s won’t make up a majority of car sales within a decade.
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So you are telling me there is no difference in terms of potential life and trade-in value between my gasoline swilling car powered by an internal combustion engine and an electric vehicle?
That if I went to a Tesla store on Merritt Island or in Orlando tomorrow, they could legitimately represent that their cars with routine maintenance, including tire rotation and brake fluid changes, their vehicles will last for 150,000 to 250,000 miles, or more?
In a lab, maybe. But in the real world? I'm still doubting it.
You just shifted the goal posts - now you're including "trade in value". Previously, you were only talking about life/mileage.
To answer your original question, yes, BEVs should last as long or longer than ICE vehicles assuming proper upkeep.
I'm also not guaranteeing "no difference".
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This basically puts a halt on opening up the supercharger network to further cars/brands.
Musk, again, took taxpayers money and is running away with it.
I genuinely cannot think of a legitimate reason for the actions except for overly heavy handed cost cutting. Makes absolutely no sense.
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I genuinely cannot think of a legitimate reason for the actions except for overly heavy handed cost cutting. Makes absolutely no sense.
Possibilities:
1. Capital needed elsewhere more desperately
2. Chargers not producing acceptable ROI
3. ?
4. ?
5. Musk too busy raging on Xitter about the woke mind virus to pay sufficient attention to his other companies as CEO, which his BoD should act on but won't
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People are burying their heads in the sand if they think EV’s won’t make up a majority of car sales within a decade.
Oh I absolutely do not think that will be the case.
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You just shifted the goal posts - now you're including "trade in value". Previously, you were only talking about life/mileage.
To answer your original question, yes, BEVs should last as long or longer than ICE vehicles assuming proper upkeep.
I'm also not guaranteeing "no difference".
Brother Jesmu:
In what world do you think there is no relationship between trade-in value and the world's perceptions of the durability and longevity of an EV?
Maybe in a lab, an EV lasts 200,000 miles. But the real world is Interstate 95 through East Florida and its 175 mph average speed (Bubba thinks that because I-95 passes Daytona, he drive like he's on a super speedway). Or sitting for an hour (with some goofy Jersey Girl doing her make-up) waiting for a slot in the Lincoln Tunnel between New Jersey and Manhattan. Or, the 405 west of Los Angeles, where you can use the entire battery life driving/stopping between LAX and Long Beach! I have my doubts.
In fact, I'm not alone. There's this difficult to measure systematic variable called "people's expectations" which is driven in no small measure by the marketplace of ideas. If people are confident, based on real-world evidence, that EVs will last at least as long, if not longer, than gas slurping dinosaurs, they'd be paying up to get them. Especially given there's only tire rotation and brake fluid maintenance, and possibly, air conditioner repair.
The reality is the market is speaking. While there has been quite a few early adopters who raced to the Tesla stores, bought Ford F150 Lightnings and otherwise found EVs, the resale/sale of EVs is, in fact, telling. Most folks in this country have decided that there are still too many open questions about EVs, their convenience, longevity and, ultimately cost.
You and I can debate all day about what might be or what should be, but I can tell you that's God's gift to mankind and womankind is STILL that ever-loving gasoline! It's too bad God put too much of gasoline's raw material in the Middle East and not enough in the Western Hemisphere!
Final thought: no government can mandate technological change. You can invest in it, you can incent it through tax and regulatory policy and you can research it. But you cannot dictate it.
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Brother Jesmu:
In what world do you think there is no relationship between trade-in value and the world's perceptions of the durability and longevity of an EV?
Maybe in a lab, an EV lasts 200,000 miles. But the real world is Interstate 95 through East Florida and its 175 mph average speed (Bubba thinks that because I-95 passes Daytona, he drive like he's on a super speedway). Or sitting for an hour (with some goofy Jersey Girl doing her make-up) waiting for a slot in the Lincoln Tunnel between New Jersey and Manhattan. Or, the 405 west of Los Angeles, where you can use the entire battery life driving/stopping between LAX and Long Beach! I have my doubts.
In fact, I'm not alone. There's this difficult to measure systematic variable called "people's expectations" which is driven in no small measure by the marketplace of ideas. If people are confident, based on real-world evidence, that EVs will last at least as long, if not longer, than gas slurping dinosaurs, they'd be paying up to get them. Especially given there's only tire rotation and brake fluid maintenance, and possibly, air conditioner repair.
The reality is the market is speaking. While there has been quite a few early adopters who raced to the Tesla stores, bought Ford F150 Lightnings and otherwise found EVs, the resale/sale of EVs is, in fact, telling. Most folks in this country have decided that there are still too many open questions about EVs, their convenience, longevity and, ultimately cost.
You and I can debate all day about what might be or what should be, but I can tell you that's God's gift to mankind and womankind is STILL that ever-loving gasoline! It's too bad God put too much of gasoline's raw material in the Middle East and not enough in the Western Hemisphere!
Final thought: no government can mandate technological change. You can invest in it, you can incent it through tax and regulatory policy and you can research it. But you cannot dictate it.
Bruh. Focus.
You originally doubted the idea that a BEV can have a lifespan similar to an ICE. It's an absolute fact that in the real world a BEV can drive the same amount of lifetime miles as an ICE.
It's really as simple as that. No need to expand this discussion into anything else cultural or political or economic or ecological.