49 free throw attempts

[panda]

What if I told you that there can be more than one reason that a team loses a game, especially a game that goes to OT?

Many things contribute to game outcomes. As a coach and player, it's important to focus on aspects of the game you can control.

Refereeing is mostly out of your control as a player and coach so I like to focus on points of the game that can be changed with various adjustments or different decisions. The last five minutes were ours to win and we lost it with several empty possessions.

Refereeing had nothing to do with turnovers and ugly offense.

[5DollarPitcher]

Many things contribute to game outcomes. As a coach and player, it's important to focus on aspects of the game you can control.

Refereeing is mostly out of your control as a player and coach so I like to focus on points of the game that can be changed with various adjustments or different decisions. The last five minutes were ours to win and we lost it with several empty possessions.

Refereeing had nothing to do with turnovers and ugly offense.

This is where you forget that we're not coaches or players. We're fans on a message board. One of the only tools at our disposal is to bitch about something seemingly out of our control.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Many things contribute to game outcomes. As a coach and player, it's important to focus on aspects of the game you can control.

What if I told you that scoopers are not coaches or players and everything about Marquette basketball is outside of our control?

[panda]

This is where you forget that we're not coaches or players. We're fans on a message board. One of the only tools at our disposal is to bitch about something seemingly out of our control.

That's the first counterpoint i can fully accept lol.

[1318WWells]

Many things contribute to game outcomes. As a coach and player, it's important to focus on aspects of the game you can control.

Refereeing is mostly out of your control as a player and coach so I like to focus on points of the game that can be changed with various adjustments or different decisions. The last five minutes were ours to win and we lost it with several empty possessions.

Refereeing had nothing to do with turnovers and ugly offense.

I agree with what you're saying. I normally don't complain about the refs making mistakes because it usually evens out for both teams and you have to play through it.

What's hard to swallow about this game is that I can't remember any calls in the game that were blatant calls in Marquette's favor. I saw us get away with what looked like traveling a couple times, but they were mostly off contact by a defender.

Anybody remember any calls that went blatantly our way?

[Dr. Blackheart]

What if I told you that scoopers are not coaches or players and everything about Marquette basketball is outside of our control?

Heresy! Besides getting Wojo fired, Scoopdom also saved the manatees and helped corral fugitive cows for repurposed use.

[Viper]

Under Woj we were tryin' ta swim in a pool of dung, aina?

has nothing to do with topic, but a brief note on Woj...one of my MU roommates from back-in-the-day has a son who was a patient at Children's Hospital /Wisconsin for an extended period. I contacted Woj to inquire if he might offer a note of encouragement to the kid. Not only did he do that, but also put together a nice MU swag box and team autographed basketball. Woj...not such a good coach, but definitely a good dude. Anyway, back to topic...

[Elonsmusk]

I asked how you would react in the exact same circumstances if Wojo was on the sidelines instead of Shaka to show your extreme bias of the situation.

If Wojo was the coach, you would have an absolute conniption (rightfully so) after they blew that lead. Now shaka is the coach and it's all gravy regardless ? It was a poorly managed last five minute stretch last night. That doesn't change our extremely positive program trajectory or the fact that Wojo stunk. You're just too biased to be taken seriously.

At this point I'm going to just have to write you off as a troll.  Why would you even bring Wojo into the conversation?  But, I can assure you if Wojo was coaching in a game where MU had a 30 FT attempt disparity, it would have been an absolute blowout loss and wouldn't have stung so much.

The topic at hand is the officiating and 49 FT attempts Providence got.  It's practically a miracle we were even in a position to win that game, or should have won that game.  You are belaboring us losing an 8 point lead on the road, with a young team, that had to overcome a 30 attempt deficit on the FT line, and a team that is ranked 24th in the country.  In Year 2 of Shaka.  I've said Shaka could have used a timeout or two to try to stem the tide and get the offense to generate better possessions in the last 5.  However, I'm not going to fly off the handle and take Shaka to task and compare him to Wojo FFS.

Still waiting though for an answer as to how a clutch coach like Ed Cooley could lose an 8 point lead on his home floor with 1:40 left in a game where the whistle was clearly tilted his way?

[panda]

At this point I'm going to just have to write you off as a troll.  Why would you even bring Wojo into the conversation?  But, I can assure you if Wojo was coaching in a game where MU had a 30 FT attempt disparity, it would have been an absolute blowout loss and wouldn't have stung so much.

The topic at hand is the officiating and 49 FT attempts Providence got.  It's practically a miracle we were even in a position to win that game, or should have won that game.  You are belaboring us losing an 8 point lead on the road, with a young team, that had to overcome a 30 attempt deficit on the FT line, and a team that is ranked 24th in the country.  In Year 2 of Shaka.  I've said Shaka could have used a timeout or two to try to stem the tide and get the offense to generate better possessions in the last 5.  However, I'm not going to fly off the handle and take Shaka to task and compare him to Wojo FFS.

Still waiting though for an answer as to how a clutch coach like Ed Cooley could lose an 8 point lead on his home floor with 1:40 left in a game where the whistle was clearly tilted his way?

I naively asked for a truthful answer for the comparison which turned into this for which I'm now banging my head against a wall.

My take with you - You're biased. Shaka did a really good job on the road encouraging his team to battle back from being down earlier in the game, but this game was in hand and we let it slip away. Nothing to do with the refereeing.

This isn't an over arching indictment on Shaka or the team. It was just a bad stretch that some people would rather blame external factors than looming internally.

We'll be fine. It's just disheartening to lose in this fashion.

[Elonsmusk]

I naively asked for a truthful answer for the comparison which turned into this for which I'm now banging my head against a wall.

My take with you - You're biased. Shaka did a really good job on the road encouraging his team to battle back from being down earlier in the game, but this game was in hand and we let it slip away. Nothing to do with the refereeing.

This isn't an over arching indictment on Shaka or the team. It was just a bad stretch that some people would rather blame external factors than looming internally.

We'll be fine. It's just disheartening to lose in this fashion.

If you think it is being "biased" to view Shaka through a different lens than Wojo, knock yourself out.  To look at them the same is moronic.  Keep banging your head against the wall that refereeing had nothing to with us losing that game.  Forget the foul disparity, but us playing 2nd OT with Kolek and OMax fouled out?  You don't think that had anything to do with us losing the game?

That aside, good trolling.  It has sucked a lot of people into your drivel.

[panda]

If you think it is being "biased" to view Shaka through a different lens than Wojo, knock yourself out.  To look at them the same is moronic.  Keep banging your head against the wall that refereeing had nothing to with us losing that game.  Forget the foul disparity, but us playing 2nd OT with Kolek and OMax fouled out?  You don't think that had anything to do with us losing the game?

That aside, good trolling.  It has sucked a lot of people into your drivel.

Wojo and co blows game - you go nuts (rightfully so)

Shaka and co blows game - it's the refs fault

Bias personified

[The Sultan]

At this point I'm going to just have to write you off as a troll.  Why would you even bring Wojo into the conversation? 

Says the guy who still places people in Nojo and Projo camps...

[The Sultan]

You've acknowledged earlier that refs do have bad games where they are inconsistent. You don't think a FT disparity so high that it has only happened three times in 13 years is possible evidence that last night was one of those times?

I also said that they rarely have outcomes on games.  And I think the FT disparity was obvious and the referees were largely correct.

I don't understand the whole "hey the FT disparity was high, therefore the refs were wrong."  Maybe the FT disparity was high because, you know, Marquette committed more fouls.

[Uncle Rico]

The mods need to put this atop this page as a warning for newbies venturing onto Scoop for the first time

[tower912]

I look at all MU coaches the same.   I want them to succeed.

[Lennys Tap]

What if I told you that scoopers are not coaches or players and everything about Marquette basketball is outside of our control?

100%.

As are 99% of the subjects that scoopers (you and I included) offer our opinions, complaints, insights, bitches, etc., on. It's what we do here.

[The Sultan]

The mods need to put this atop this page as a warning for newbies venturing onto Scoop for the first time

Kind of like those parts of France where people still can't go because of unexploded shells from WWI.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I also said that they rarely have outcomes on games.  And I think the FT disparity was obvious and the referees were largely correct.

Refs always impact the outcome of game. It's rarely a large impact and there are dozens of factors that have more impact, but refs are humans. They miss calls, they make wrong calls. They usually come close to balancing out but they rarely come to perfectly balanced. Saying that human error by the refs could have resulted in a point swing in one direction or the other (which would have changed the outcome of this particular game) is really not that outlandish of a thing to say.

I don't understand the whole "hey the FT disparity was high, therefore the refs were wrong."  Maybe the FT disparity was high because, you know, Marquette committed more fouls.

Its not that the FT disparity was high, it was historically high. Put it this way, which is more likely, that Marquette committed a historic number of fouls with Providence committing a historic low number of fouls in the same game? Or Marquette committed a large number of fouls, Providence committed, a low number of fouls, and the refs made some human errors (which happen every game) that happened to benefit Providence more than it benefitted Marquette. Occam's razor would say the latter.

If anyone is suggesting that the refs had it out for Marquette or were biased, that's dumb. But humans make mistakes and those mistakes usually don't balance out perfectly and sometimes they result in an extra point or two for one side.

[real chili 83]

Yep, the refs sucked in that game. However, it was completely in MU's grasp to win the game....twice.

[Pakuni]

Refs always impact the outcome of game. It's rarely a large impact and there are dozens of factors that have more impact, but refs are humans. They miss calls, they make wrong calls. They usually come close to balancing out but they rarely come to perfectly balanced. Saying that human error by the refs could have resulted in a point swing in one direction or the other (which would have changed the outcome of this particular game) is really not that outlandish of a thing to say.

Its not that the FT disparity was high, it was historically high. Put it this way, which is more likely, that Marquette committed a historic number of fouls with Providence committing a historic low number of fouls in the same game? Or Marquette committed a large number of fouls, Providence committed, a low number of fouls, and the refs made some human errors (which happen every game) that happened to benefit Providence more than it benefitted Marquette. Occam's razor would say the latter.

If anyone is suggesting that the refs had it out for Marquette or were biased, that's dumb. But humans make mistakes and those mistakes usually don't balance out perfectly and sometimes they result in an extra point or two for one side.

Is the fact MU committed many fouls necessarily evidence of historically poor officiating, rather than poor play on MU's part?
I haven't gone back and re-watched the game to dissect every foul, but on first viewing I don't recall an unusually high number of bad calls against Marquette. There were some, just as there are some every game. But I think all the fouls moreso reflected the way Providence attacked and the flow of the game, than some unusually inept or unbalanced officiating.

[MU82]

Yep, the refs sucked in that game. However, it was completely in MU's grasp to win the game....twice.

Stop with the logical, reasonable, calm-minded take. This is Scoop, dammit!

[bilsu]

Is the fact MU committed many fouls necessarily evidence of historically poor officiating, rather than poor play on MU's part?
I haven't gone back and re-watched the game to dissect every foul, but on first viewing I don't recall an unusually high number of bad calls against Marquette. There were some, just as there are some every game. But I think all the fouls moreso reflected the way Providence attacked and the flow of the game, than some unusually inept or unbalanced officiating.

I did not have trouble with the fouls called on MU. My beef is there were times I thought MU was fouled and there was no call.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Is the fact MU committed many fouls necessarily evidence of historically poor officiating, rather than poor play on MU's part?
I haven't gone back and re-watched the game to dissect every foul, but on first viewing I don't recall an unusually high number of bad calls against Marquette. There were some, just as there are some every game. But I think all the fouls moreso reflected the way Providence attacked and the flow of the game, than some unusually inept or unbalanced officiating.

Looking at free throw rates which helps to adjust for 2 OT's, Providence fouled MU (25.3%) at a rate at about the same as MU's average (29.3%) and what Creighton did where they were behind (23.3%). Seems consistent.

MU's Defensive FTR for the season is 30.2% compared to an NCAA D1 average of 31%. Versus Creighton, where MU led comfortably for three fourths of the game, it was 9.3%.

Providence's FTR was a whopping 75.4%. That's 350% higher than MU's average. That's over 75 FTs per 100 FGAs.

So what can we conclude and deduce about officiating in this game, where MU led for a good portion?

• MU suddenly fouled more than they have...by a lot despite playing half the game in a zone
• Providence fouled like other MU opponents
• This Big East crew called a tighter game than other crews, but only on Marquette
• This crew is more critical of a defensive style that extends pressure and disrupts with their hands than those who play defense by bumping bodies.  In other words, Bully Ball.

To me, a good officiating crew is consistent.  Versus other crews and between teams and their style of play. In almost all games, MU's style of play has been called consistently. All of a sudden it's not...yet Providence was called consistently to average.

And that's the rub.  MU was fouling more and was called for it.  Providence was fouling more, but wasn't. Bully Ball has been a point of emphasis supposedly, but this crew ignored it on one team. We hear it's "The Big East Way". 

That said, MU choked the chicken in this one (another thread).

[rocky_warrior]

Rider must still be pissed PC got to the line 43 times vs their 10...in regulation!

PC is great at drawing fouls, and really good at avoiding them.  They've only lost the FTA battle in one game, a win against Columbia.  They frequently come close to doubling up their opponents in FTA.  It's not a MU thing, or a ref thing, it's a PC FTR thing, one in which they are elite.

[Uncle Rico]

Rider must still be pissed PC got to the line 43 times vs their 10...in regulation!

Murderer