MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 5DollarPitcher on December 20, 2022, 08:56:11 PM
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pathetic, pathetic officiating
providence did not earn 30 more free throw attempts
excuse me while i vomit all over myself
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Such is life on the road in the Big East. Our rebounding was what cost us.
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Such is life on the road in the Big East. Our rebounding was what cost us.
Seems we never get to shoot 49 FTs in our home games...
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Update: I think it just got to 63.
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The refs were fine. PC was just too physical for MU. When you recruit prong and lean athletes, and don’t rebound well, this happens.
This is why some lament the lack of bugs on this team. Oso is the only one and he’s not exactly built.
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Free thrown no matta.
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Free thrown no matta.
but they do. Take 6-7 pts off the board from throws. That matters.
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The refs were fine. PC was just too physical for MU. When you recruit prong and lean athletes, and don’t rebound well, this happens.
This is why some lament the lack of bugs on this team. Oso is the only one and he’s not exactly built.
In the game I watched the refs couldn't wait to blow their whistle for breathing on someone on one end, while they allowed pushing and hand checking on every drive on the other.
I think you were on the wrong channel.
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Seems we never get to shoot 49 FTs in our home games...
We also don’t create 10 extra possessions with offensive rebounds and don’t usually play into double OT.
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In the game I watched the refs couldn't wait to blow their whistle for breathing on someone on one end, while they allowed pushing and hand checking on every drive on the other.
I think you were on the wrong channel.
Said it on the other thread, but how many times was Providence rewarded for being out of control? It really feels like they flail in the hope of a whistle rather than actually want to take a shot
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Said it on the other thread, but how many times was Providence rewarded for being out of control? It really feels like they flail in the hope of a whistle rather than actually want to take a shot
100% this. Kam jones got knocked to the ground 2 times in one possession in OT and the refs didn’t even consider a foul.
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In the game I watched the refs couldn't wait to blow their whistle for breathing on someone on one end, while they allowed pushing and hand checking on every drive on the other.
I think you were on the wrong channel.
I think you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
<checks username>
Yep.
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The refs were fine. PC was just too physical for MU. When you recruit prong and lean athletes, and don’t rebound well, this happens.
This is why some lament the lack of bugs on this team. Oso is the only one and he’s not exactly built.
I agree, for the most part they were fine. My one problem was the straight line drives MU walled up that were out of control that were at best no calls. It was a foul every time and rewarded horrible head down drives. The rest of the 35 free throws were earned.
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I was worried about how physical Providence was after the Seton Hall game. They showed it tonight at home. They attacked and were rewarded.
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I think you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
<checks username>
Yep.
Nice! No substance at all. I tend to think your posts are rather (extremely) vapid, as well.
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We also don’t create 10 extra possessions with offensive rebounds and don’t usually play into double OT.
Yep yep. Lack of rebounding kills you in games like this.
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I was worried about how physical Providence was after the Seton Hall game. They showed it tonight at home. They attacked and were rewarded.
Didn't Marquette attack? I thought they had more points in the paint?
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Nice! No substance at all. I tend to think your posts are rather (extremely) vapid, as well.
I can’t make you see something that you don’t see or understand. Physical teams win BE battles. Since MU has been in this conference, that has been the case. Have you not been watching?
I love Shaka but his style is going to be ugly at times in this conference.
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Remember today if and when we miss the tournament. Providence isn't good.
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Didn't Marquette attack? I thought they had more points in the paint?
This. They did attack. Providence got rewarded for seeking contact rather than making a basketball play.
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Remember today if and when we miss the tournament. Providence isn't good.
They are pretty good.
They are VERY good at home.
Their head coach is one of the best.
They are probably going to be a tournament bubble team.
More important than anything else you said, this game will have 0 bearing on Marquette not making the tournament
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This. They did attack. Providence got rewarded for seeking contact rather than making a basketball play.
Because we fouled them.
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Shaka just said ‘respect is earned’. Ok, sure. But coach, a FT discrepancy of 30. 30!! It’s almost impossible to overcome that. The Celtics don’t overcome that! Ok, I’m ranting.
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Shaka just said ‘respect is earned’. Ok, sure. But coach, a FT discrepancy of 30. 30!! It’s almost impossible to overcome that. The Celtics don’t overcome that! Ok, I’m ranting.
Because we fouled them more than they fouled us.
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The refs were fine. PC was just too physical for MU. When you recruit prong and lean athletes, and don’t rebound well, this happens.
This is why some lament the lack of bugs on this team. Oso is the only one and he’s not exactly built.
Standard Sultan reply. 30 FT attempt differential is not something simply explained by the other team being more physical. They bodied the unnatural carnal knowledge out of Kam, Tyler, Jop going to the basket and rarely was anything called.
I get that your schtick is to be a prick, but try not to be so predictable.
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He also said they didn’t get the calls and Providence went to the foul line on two jump balls in overtime. He was definitely pointing out the officiating.
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Standard Sultan reply. 30 FT attempt differential is not something simply explained by the other team being more physical. They bodied the unnatural carnal knowledge out of Kam, Tyler, Jop going to the basket and rarely was anything called.
I get that your schtick is to be a prick, but try not to be so predictable.
A prick? Sorry you feel that way.
But refs weren’t a problem. Sorry you can’t see that.
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This is the price you pay for having long lanky teams — you get pushed around inside and don’t get the whistles you want because guys can’t hold their ground. Gotta take the good with the bad; I just wish we had one true big inside, even if only to use from the bench.
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I agree, for the most part they were fine. My one problem was the straight line drives MU walled up that were out of control that were at best no calls. It was a foul every time and rewarded horrible head down drives. The rest of the 35 free throws were earned.
They rewarded Providence for out of control head down drives and swallowed the whistle for MU. Pretty clear.
Call it both ways.
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I can’t make you see something that you don’t see or understand. Physical teams win BE battles. Since MU has been in this conference, that has been the case. Have you not been watching?
I love Shaka but his style is going to be ugly at times in this conference.
So you had a biased conclusion coming into the game and a 30 (THIRTY!) free throw disparity made all the sense in the world to you. You didn't even need to watch the game!
I can't make you see something you don't see or understand - the refs tilted the court tonight.
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Standard Sultan reply. 30 FT attempt differential is not something simply explained by the other team being more physical. They bodied the unnatural carnal knowledge out of Kam, Tyler, Jop going to the basket and rarely was anything called.
I get that your schtick is to be a prick, but try not to be so predictable.
shaka, get t’d. Sometimes you gotta drop the hammer. Your guys were getting hacked without mercy. Take one!
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Because we fouled them more than they fouled us.
We did foul them more than they fouled us. They are bigger and more physical than us. They deserved more free throw attempts. We could have rebounded better. The half court offense went in to a funk with 6 minutes left. There are a lot of reasons that we lost.
That said, they didn’t deserve 30 more attempts. PC got away with a lot of contact that we didn’t get away with, and I could find 8-10 examples. We should have had 10-15 more free throws and that would have been the difference.
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This is the price you pay for having long lanky teams — you get pushed around inside and don’t get the whistles you want because guys can’t hold their ground. Gotta take the good with the bad; I just wish we had one true big inside, even if only to use from the bench.
Exactly. You said this better than me. Can’t hold their ground and lose their position defensively. Recipe for fouls.
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Because we fouled them.
Bryce Hopkins played 47 minutes. Marquette was attacking in all 47 of his minutes.
He got called for 0 fouls.
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We did foul them more than they fouled us. They are bigger and more physical than us. They deserved more free throw attempts. We could have rebounded better. The half court offense went in to a funk with 6 minutes left. There are a lot of reasons that we lost.
That said, they didn’t deserve 30 more attempts. PC got away with a lot of contact that we didn’t get away with, and I could find 8-10 examples. We should have had 10-15 more free throws and that would have been the difference.
Bingo. I get why there would be a disparity but that large? Come on.
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They rewarded Providence for out of control head down drives and swallowed the whistle for MU. Pretty clear.
Call it both ways.
This is the correct take. The argument can be made the Providence was "aggressive" but the officiating was inconsistent in response to that.
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Bryce Hopkins played 47 minutes. Marquette was attacking in all 47 of his minutes.
He got called for 0 fouls.
I didn’t notice any they missed.
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Remember today if and when we miss the tournament. Providence isn't good.
Lol.
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We did foul them more than they fouled us. They are bigger and more physical than us. They deserved more free throw attempts. We could have rebounded better. The half court offense went in to a funk with 6 minutes left. There are a lot of reasons that we lost.
That said, they didn’t deserve 30 more attempts. PC got away with a lot of contact that we didn’t get away with, and I could find 8-10 examples. We should have had 10-15 more free throws and that would have been the difference.
Correct take again
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I didn’t notice any they missed.
Because you're an uninformed, uneducated watcher of basketball
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So you had a biased conclusion coming into the game and a 30 (THIRTY!) free throw disparity made all the sense in the world to you. You didn't even need to watch the game!
I can't make you see something you don't see or understand - the refs tilted the court tonight.
Biased conclusion????
Have you WATCHED Big East basketball? This is how games are played all the time!
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Because you're an uninformed, uneducated watcher of basketball
Resorting to name calling means you’ve lost the argument. Congrats.
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Biased conclusion????
Have you WATCHED Big East basketball? This is how games are played all the time!
That's the definition of bias "Sultan of Semantics", I'd expect you to get there on your own.
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Some people want to focus on the foul/free throw differential as evidence of poor and biased officiating.
I’d prefer to focus on getting outrebounded by 20, including at least 3 on missed FTs as evidence that one team was more physical and aggressive than the other.
We all know that MU is not a physical team and is going to have problems against teams with muscle. To be successful MU has to be able to execute and make shots in tight games and so far they have totally failed to do that. There are going to be a lot more close games than blowouts in conference play, and if MU doesn’t dramatically improve its execution in close games it’s going to be a difficult season. They were lucky Kalkenbrenner was out last week because that game could have been a lot different.
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I didn’t notice any they missed.
Joplin and Kam were getting bumped everytime they drove.
Providence was whistled for 1 foul in the final 10 minutes of regulation. They also started both overtimes shooting 2 free throws within the 1st 10 seconds of each period.
I still don't think Marquette is a tournament team but that was a poorly officiated game that turns into a painful loss.
Seton Hall
Villanova
St. Johns
Those are all coinflip games coming up, just as tonight was.
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Resorting to name calling means you’ve lost the argument. Congrats.
You kinda started it - congrats!
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A prick? Sorry you feel that way.
But refs weren’t a problem. Sorry you can’t see that.
Has there ever, in your life, been a game where you admit the refs might have been a problem?
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This is the correct take. The argument can be made the Providence was "aggressive" but the officiating was inconsistent in response to that.
It's up to Broeker then to go to the Big East office. Really the issue wasn't that MU didn't foul but that the game wasn't called consistently on both ends and half to half. In game, that's on Shaka. Post-game, that's on Broeker.
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One they certainly missed was Jop's tying bucket. Cresswell was vertical but jumped right into his body. Should have been shooting a FT for the lead.
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That's the definition of bias "Sultan of Semantics", I'd expect you to get there on your own.
No. You’ve failed with logic here. Go back and follow the topic. Perhaps you’ll notice your error.
Likely not though.
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Has there ever, in your life, been a game where you admit the refs might have been a problem?
Yes. But it’s very rare.
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One they certainly missed was Jop's tying bucket. Cresswell was vertical but jumped right into his body. Should have been shooting a FT for the lead.
The worst I recall was Kam got tackled out of bounds in a 1 point game and Kolek had the ball slip out of his hands on a shot attempt right after.
Should have been Kam at the line in a 1 point game.
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Yes. But it’s very rare.
Are you a ref?
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The worst I recall was Kam got tackled out of bounds in a 1 point game and Kolek had the ball slip out of his hands on a shot attempt right after.
Should have been Kam at the line in a 1 point game.
And there are 10-15 more of these throughout the game. I'll tell you what - I'm not sure they missed ANY fouls against Marquette. Maybe a travel or two due to their general ineptitude.
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“This is what you get in Big East basketball. Refs let them play. It’s a physical game.”
After a game where the refs sent a team to the line 49 times.
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Are you a ref?
God no.
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Yes. But it’s very rare.
The idea that the players are inconsistent from game to game, half to half, and minute to minute but the refs are so consistent and infallible that a bad game is "very rare" is laughable.
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The refs were fine. PC was just too physical for MU. When you recruit prong and lean athletes, and don’t rebound well, this happens.
This is why some lament the lack of bugs on this team. Oso is the only one and he’s not exactly built.
You're off your ass on this one. I get it, you hate to place blame on the refs, but what is the line in the sand for you?
Do all of our starters have to foul out while none of theirs do?
I'm just curious.
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Because we fouled them.
Sometimes, yes. But there were a lot of rewarded 50/50 balls where they Providence player was completely out of control.
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It was on Kam’s and1 but I loved how the announcers were complaining about the foul call on Providence.
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Biased conclusion????
Have you WATCHED Big East basketball? This is how games are played all the time!
All the time? I can’t find regular season stats, but the largest ever free throw disparity in a NCAA tournament game is 34.
I’d guess tonight’s game ends up being one of the largest disparities of the season.
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Some people want to focus on the foul/free throw differential as evidence of poor and biased officiating.
I’d prefer to focus on getting outrebounded by 20, including at least 3 on missed FTs as evidence that one team was more physical and aggressive than the other.
We all know that MU is not a physical team and is going to have problems against teams with muscle. To be successful MU has to be able to execute and make shots in tight games and so far they have totally failed to do that. There are going to be a lot more close games than blowouts in conference play, and if MU doesn’t dramatically improve its execution in close games it’s going to be a difficult season. They were lucky Kalkenbrenner was out last week because that game could have been a lot different.
Biased officiating and being out rebounded are both true.
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This is the price you pay for having long lanky teams — you get pushed around inside and don’t get the whistles you want because guys can’t hold their ground. Gotta take the good with the bad; I just wish we had one true big inside, even if only to use from the bench.
This argument doesn't hold water. Our team is built to be good a certain way so we have to live with bad officiating because our team is not built in a way that might trick an inept ref crew?
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The idea that the players are inconsistent from game to game, half to half, and minute to minute but the refs are so consistent and infallible that a bad game is "very rare" is laughable.
Hold on. I never said they don’t miss calls. Of course they do! But they generally even out to the point of being a non-factor.
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There were 3 that were egregrious off the bat.
The Jop should be And 1 and the Kam out of bounds bump. Were both fouls that were called on us 15 times.
And the Kam "foul" when he went to jump ball Crosswell when we were still up 8 was maybe the worst call of the season. Dont wanna blow the whistle? Fine. But a foul on Kam was lol.
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Some people want to focus on the foul/free throw differential as evidence of poor and biased officiating.
I’d prefer to focus on getting outrebounded by 20, including at least 3 on missed FTs as evidence that one team was more physical and aggressive than the other.
We all know that MU is not a physical team and is going to have problems against teams with muscle. To be successful MU has to be able to execute and make shots in tight games and so far they have totally failed to do that. There are going to be a lot more close games than blowouts in conference play, and if MU doesn’t dramatically improve its execution in close games it’s going to be a difficult season. They were lucky Kalkenbrenner was out last week because that game could have been a lot different.
This is unfortunately the correct take. Marquette is going to lose several more Big East games to inferior opponents because we are going to struggle to close out defensive stops with rebounds. I’d be surprised if Sean Jones plays against SH once Shaka sees the tape of him letting Hopkins grab his own FT rebound with no remote attempt at a box out.
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This argument doesn't hold water. Our team is built to be good a certain way so we have to live with bad officiating because our team is not built in a way that might trick an inept ref crew?
More logic fail.
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Some people want to focus on the foul/free throw differential as evidence of poor and biased officiating.
I’d prefer to focus on getting outrebounded by 20, including at least 3 on missed FTs as evidence that one team was more physical and aggressive than the other.
We all know that MU is not a physical team and is going to have problems against teams with muscle. To be successful MU has to be able to execute and make shots in tight games and so far they have totally failed to do that. There are going to be a lot more close games than blowouts in conference play, and if MU doesn’t dramatically improve its execution in close games it’s going to be a difficult season. They were lucky Kalkenbrenner was out last week because that game could have been a lot different.
Yep yep yep. Excellent points.
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Hold on. I never said they don’t miss calls. Of course they do! But they generally even out to the point of being a non-factor.
Do players have good games and bad games? I think you would agree they do. The same can be true for the officials. It's okay to admit it.
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Do players have good games and bad games? I think you would agree they do. The same can be true for the officials. It's okay to admit it.
I said they can miss calls.
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This argument doesn't hold water. Our team is built to be good a certain way so we have to live with bad officiating because our team is not built in a way that might trick an inept ref crew?
That’s not the point. The point is that when you’re skinny, you get put in positions where you have to foul to avoid a bucket. That is why there is a big FT differential after 50 minutes of play. That’s just how the game works. Like being tall is an advantage for most things in basketball, being strong and physical is also an innate advantage.
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Hold on. I never said they don’t miss calls. Of course they do! But they generally even out to the point of being a non-factor.
But tonight they did not. In the same way that a very good player can have a very bad game.
Generally - he'll get you 15 and 10 but tonight - he came nowhere close.
Make sense to you now?
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But tonight they did not. In the same way that a very good player can have a very bad game.
Generally - he'll get you 15 and 10 but tonight - he came nowhere close.
Make sense to you now?
That’s a nonsensical comparison. Logic fail #3 in about fifteen minutes.
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More logic fail.
My favorite of your vapid posts are the ones that literally say nothing, offer no counterargument, but allow you to stroke yourself into feeling superior.
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That’s a nonsensical comparison. Logic fail #3 in about fifteen minutes.
No it's not. When you add home court in, bad refs become bad in a certain direction more often than not. There are studies on this.
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My favorite of your vapid posts are the ones that literally say nothing, offer no counterargument, but allow you to stroke yourself into feeling superior.
I have been saying plenty. Others are too. Sorry you can’t comprehend these points.
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No it's not. When you add home court in, bad refs become bad in a certain direction more often than not. There are studies on this.
But the refs weren’t bad.
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“This is what you get in Big East basketball. Refs let them play. It’s a physical game.”
After a game where the refs sent a team to the line 49 times.
They only let them play if they are muscular. Or something like that.
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I have been saying plenty. Others are too. Sorry you can’t comprehend these points.
I said my favorite "of your vapid posts". For being a Sultan of Semantics, you're certainly not very good at semantics.
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But the refs weren’t bad.
HAHAHAHAHHAHA
ok goodnight.
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Marquette is basically 1-3 in Big East play since they aren't beating UCONN (can't guard Hopkins, you definitely can't guard Sanogo/Clingan).
Seton Hall is bad, but they are good enough to beat Marquette and make it hurt. Gotta avoid a loss on Tuesday. Might make the trip to Milwaukee for that one.
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Providence with a 75.4% FTR in a close 2OT game where they played behind in the end of regulation. MU's average is 30% of possessions. That's more than out of the ordinary, if not incredible.
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They only let them play if they are muscular. Or something like that.
Go back and watch the game. PC makes contact with their chest; MU reaches for the ball with their arms. The latter causes refs to blow their whistle.
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Remember today if and when we miss the tournament. Providence isn't good.
🤡
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Marquette is basically 1-3 in Big East play since they aren't beating UCONN (can't guard Hopkins, you definitely can't guard Sanogo/Clingan).
Seton Hall is bad, but they are good enough to beat Marquette and make it hurt. Gotta avoid a loss on Tuesday. Might make the trip to Milwaukee for that one.
Marquette being 1-3 would have nothing to do with UCONN. Maybe look at the schedule before making dumb posts like this.
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Has there ever, in your life, been a game where you admit the refs might have been a problem?
Not a MU game at least.
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Yes. But it’s very rare.
I can't think of one.
Generally, you are right that refs seldom determine the outcome. But no matter what, this is always your schtick. Even when it's this obvious.
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I didn’t notice any they missed.
First one off the top of my head was Oso’s last bucket. Reverse layup from left wing. Hopkins fouled him three separate times along the baseline. No call. Shoulda been an and 1.
More than just physical defense. But Oso absorbed and finished so no call?
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Providence with a 75.4% FTR in a close 2OT game where they played behind in the end of regulation. MU's average is 30% of possessions. That's more than out of the ordinary, if not incredible.
Oof. PC had 46% OR too
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Providence with a 75.4% FTR in a close 2OT game where they played behind in the end of regulation. MU's average is 30% of possessions. That's more than out of the ordinary, if not incredible.
Providence made one field goal in the second OT.
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First one off the top of my head was Oso’s last bucket. Reverse layup from left wing. Hopkins fouled him three separate times along the baseline. No call. Shoulda been an and 1.
More than just physical defense. But Oso absorbed and finished so no call?
But Hopkins has muscles and Oso no muscles so, via Big East rules, fouling is allowed on that particular drive. Sorry it's been like this forever!
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But Hopkins has muscles and Oso no muscles so, via Big East rules, fouling is allowed on that particular drive. Sorry it's been like this forever!
Unless you’re Theo
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Unless you’re Theo
This was going to be my exact response. When we had the strongest dude in the Big East the refs were the opposite, calling fouls on Theo just for being bigger than the opponent.
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🤡
You think they are a lock tournament team?
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You think they are a lock tournament team?
I think if we miss the tourney it won’t be due to a double OT loss on the road to Providence and anyone that thinks that is a 🤡
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There were 3 that were egregrious off the bat.
The Jop should be And 1 and the Kam out of bounds bump. Were both fouls that were called on us 15 times.
And the Kam "foul" when he went to jump ball Crosswell when we were still up 8 was maybe the worst call of the season. Dont wanna blow the whistle? Fine. But a foul on Kam was lol.
The foul on O-Max 5 seconds into OT was horrible. He was straight up and down and there was virtually zero contact, other than the offensive player trying to initiate contact.
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This was going to be my exact response. When we had the strongest dude in the Big East the refs were the opposite, calling fouls on Theo just for being bigger than the opponent.
Theo had no clue how to play defense. It appeared as though acc refs found that to be the case as well.
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This was going to be my exact response. When we had the strongest dude in the Big East the refs were the opposite, calling fouls on Theo just for being bigger than the opponent.
Definitely a massive anti-MU conspiracy afoot.
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I think if we miss the tourney it won’t be due to a double OT loss on the road to Providence and anyone that thinks that is a 🤡
I don't think it will be solely because of that, but that will be a reason.
People are assuming to get in Marquette will have to have AT LEAST 19 wins before the BET. That would mean finishing 11-9 in the league, so 10 more wins. To get there, you have to win games like this against the middle of the pack. They were up 8 with 5 minutes left.
They are 0-4 in close games late. They've looked better than expected, and that is awesome, but this still doesn't feel like a tournament team.
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They rewarded Providence for out of control head down drives and swallowed the whistle for MU. Pretty clear.
Call it both ways.
Yep. Don’t call the fouls on Providence on the forced out of control drives. If they do they have to call it both ways. Plenty of body on our drivers not called.
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I don't think it will be solely because of that, but that will be a reason.
People are assuming to get in Marquette will have to have AT LEAST 19 wins before the BET. That would mean finishing 11-9 in the league, so 10 more wins. To get there, you have to win games like this against the middle of the pack. They were up 8 with 5 minutes left.
They are 0-4 in close games late. They've looked better than expected, and that is awesome, but this still doesn't feel like a tournament team.
I get your point, but this one loss doesn’t move the needle. If we can’t win any close games, then that will be a big issue. But we still have plenty of time to grow and shore things up.
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I don't think it will be solely because of that, but that will be a reason.
People are assuming to get in Marquette will have to have AT LEAST 19 wins before the BET. That would mean finishing 11-9 in the league, so 10 more wins. To get there, you have to win games like this against the middle of the pack. They were up 8 with 5 minutes left.
They are 0-4 in close games late. They've looked better than expected, and that is awesome, but this still doesn't feel like a tournament team.
It feels exactly like a tourney team.
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Joplin and Kam were getting bumped everytime they drove.
Providence was whistled for 1 foul in the final 10 minutes of regulation. They also started both overtimes shooting 2 free throws within the 1st 10 seconds of each period.
I still don't think Marquette is a tournament team but that was a poorly officiated game that turns into a painful loss.
Seton Hall
Villanova
St. Johns
Those are all coinflip games coming up, just as tonight was.
You do t think Marquette is a tournament team? What are you watching?
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I don't think it will be solely because of that, but that will be a reason.
People are assuming to get in Marquette will have to have AT LEAST 19 wins before the BET. That would mean finishing 11-9 in the league, so 10 more wins. To get there, you have to win games like this against the middle of the pack. They were up 8 with 5 minutes left.
They are 0-4 in close games late. They've looked better than expected, and that is awesome, but this still doesn't feel like a tournament team.
Settle down. The entire conference outside of UConn, DePaul, and Gtown is the middle of the pack.
MUs numbers stack up favorably thanks to a solid OOC, and yes partly because of close losses against good teams that may regress some going forward.
Unless Brew really wants to argue me on this one I will say that 10 conference wins would make Marquette a lock.
Are they a lock? No. They still need to get the wins. Where you’re mostly mistaken is the part where you say that they have to win games like this against the middle of the pack.
A road game at Providence isn’t a necessary win against the middle of the pack.
A road game at Nova isn’t a necessary win against the middle of the pack.
Homes games are necessary wins against the middle of the pack.
They need 9 more wins to dance imo.
If they win 7 of the remaining 9 home games they need to steal 2 road games to get to 10-10.
They have DePaul and Gtown on the road, SH and Butler and StJ on the road. Those are all arguably easier road games than tonight’s road game.
If they start to lose winnable games at home, say a week from tonight versus (a very hungry) SH squad then I’ll get alarmed.
And even then it wouldn’t be doomsday because there are winnable roadies
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You do t think Marquette is a tournament team? What are you watching?
I don't.
They can beat Tournament Teams and wouldn't look out of place in the tournament, but I just don't see this team winning enough games in the Big East.
As I've said (and plenty have disagreed with, so maybe that's where we differentiate) there are less "guarantee games" in the Big East this year. The league is just a bunch of mediocre teams that are all capable of winning. Losing to Seton Hall would be really bad on Tuesday, but it is quite possible they lose that game. Those are the type of games we will be playing in every night the rest of the way and this team hasn't shown once this season that it can win a close game. 0-4 now in those games.
Again, I don't think they are bad or would look out of place in the tournament, but they aren't finishing close games and that matters.
A 7 game winning streak saved this team last year. A 7 game winning streak isn't happening with this team.
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Marquette is basically 1-3 in Big East play since they aren't beating UCONN (can't guard Hopkins, you definitely can't guard Sanogo/Clingan).
Seton Hall is bad, but they are good enough to beat Marquette and make it hurt. Gotta avoid a loss on Tuesday. Might make the trip to Milwaukee for that one.
Lol. Wtf are you even talking about? Torvik has a 41% chance for MU to beat UCONN at home. Torvik has our opponent with less than a 41% chance of beating MU in 12 of our remaining games. So MU is 13-3 in the Big East as of this moment.
Haha.
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Lol. Wtf are you even talking about? Torvik has a 41% chance for MU to beat UCONN at home. Torvik has our opponent with less than a 41% chance of beating MU in 12 of our remaining games. So MU is 13-3 in the Big East as of this moment.
Haha.
I'm just saying they aren't beating UCONN, so they'll have to find 10 wins in the other 16.
Gotta go 10-6 in the non UCONN games to reach 19 wins and 11-9 in conference.
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Ok geagle, we have you on record as a definite no on making the NCAA tournament. I’ll go on record saying we are a tournament team.
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I don't.
They can beat Tournament Teams and wouldn't look out of place in the tournament, but I just don't see this team winning enough games in the Big East.
As I've said (and plenty have disagreed with, so maybe that's where we differentiate) there are less "guarantee games" in the Big East this year. The league is just a bunch of mediocre teams that are all capable of winning. Losing to Seton Hall would be really bad on Tuesday, but it is quite possible they lose that game. Those are the type of games we will be playing in every night the rest of the way and this team hasn't shown once this season that it can win a close game. 0-4 now in those games.
Again, I don't think they are bad or would look out of place in the tournament, but they aren't finishing close games and that matters.
A 7 game winning streak saved this team last year. A 7 game winning streak isn't happening with this team.
🤡
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Ok geagle, we have you on record as a definite no on making the NCAA tournament. I’ll go on record saying we are a tournament team.
Sounds good! And I hope you are correct.
I just don't want people turning on Shaka if and when we miss this year. To me, his process seems to be working in that players are getting better individually.
I'd hate for everyone to get an unrealistic view of this current team and then turn on the guy when things go different than they hoped.
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Sounds good! And I hope you are correct.
I just don't want people turning on Shaka if and when we miss this year. To me, his process seems to be working in that players are getting better individually.
I'd hate for everyone to get an unrealistic view of this current team and then turn on the guy when things go different than they hoped.
Have you considered the possibility you’re the one with the unrealistic view?
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Marquette lead by 6 with 7 minutes left and scored 3 points more in regulation. They are young and don't know jow to finish on the road. They don't have a guy to feed in the post when the offense gets stagnant. They wet themselves tonight that's all. to their credit they tried to pull it together but came up short. They are 1 and 1. If they finish 10 and 10 which is possible they dance and it is a good season. relax boys there are a lot of games to be played.
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"They wet themselves tonight that's all."
Um, they wet themselves in 4 games out of that 5 matter this season so far. Coaching? Recruits? getting to .500 in the BEast as a bubble team?
Sounds a lot like many of the Wojo seasons...
Problem with this team - there are many players on this team who can score, there are no players on this team that can score when they need to score...
Marquette lead by 6 with 7 minutes left and scored 3 points more in regulation. They are young and don't know jow to finish on the road. They don't have a guy to feed in the post when the offense gets stagnant. They wet themselves tonight that's all. to their credit they tried to pull it together but came up short. They are 1 and 1. If they finish 10 and 10 which is possible they dance and it is a good season. relax boys there are a lot of games to be played.
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Sounds good! And I hope you are correct.
I just don't want people turning on Shaka if and when we miss this year. To me, his process seems to be working in that players are getting better individually.
I'd hate for everyone to get an unrealistic view of this current team and then turn on the guy when things go different than they hoped.
The COLE is strong in this one.
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"They wet themselves tonight that's all."
Um, they wet themselves in 4 games out of that 5 matter this season so far. Coaching? Recruits? getting to .500 in the BEast as a bubble team?
Sounds a lot like many of the Wojo seasons...
Problem with this team - there are many players on this team who can score, there are no players on this team that can score when they need to score...
::)
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Even though he's not an MU grad, GE03 is obviously a big fan, and he has opinions as the rest of us do. None of us should have any problem with that.
His m-o this season has been to downplay the team's ability and chance at success. He even picked effen Georgia Tech to beat us but then claimed afterward that his pick wasn't saying we were worse than GT. (Um, OK.) When he's right, he has an "I told you so" vibe and when he's wrong he has a "shrug, glad I was wrong" vibe. He's already re-posted his preseason predictions at least once to show the rest of us dopes how smart he is. (Curiously, didn't re-post after the wrong ones.)
It's a no-lose way to be an interwebs fan-site poster. If MU doesn't make the tournament, he'll be telling us, "See?!?! I was the only realistic one." And if we do, "So glad I was wrong!"
Hey, at least he's been consistent.
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But Hopkins has muscles and Oso no muscles so, via Big East rules, fouling is allowed on that particular drive. Sorry it's been like this forever!
These are the comments you make that leads me to believe that you just don't understand this. Read what Ellenson Guerrero is writing. About how Providence bumped Marquette players on the drive versus Marquette players reaching and losing their ground on the defensive end. (Which is why rebounding was so terrible.)
It's obvious that Cooley was tired of Marquette just marching down the lane, so he got physical. Not by reaching and grabbing, but by having their players get in front of them. And since Marquette has joined this conference, the referees have allowed defensive players to do this. This is why Buzz had his Jaes, Jimmys and DJOs.
It's not rocket science to see why the FT disparity was how it was. Wojo's teams struggled with this too. Cooley is going to make it rough - you can either bitch and moan about the refs, or deal with it and muscle up.
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Kolek had two strange turnovers at around the 2 minute mark of regulation. On one, the ball jumped out of his hands. On the next one, the ball seemed to go right through him (from Kam).
Was he fowled on either? They never zoomed in on either of those. I replayed and had a hard time seeing what exactly happened.
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When you get 62 points in the paint, you shouldn't be out shot 49-19 at the line. That was a joke. We lived inside and didn't get rewarded for that. Biggest FT disparity in more than 12 years. Biggest foul disparity as well. Top-10 FTR for Providence under Cooley. That game was a massive statistical outlier because there was a disparity in how PC was handled and how we were handled. The numbers back that up.
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Marquette lead by 6 with 7 minutes left and scored 3 points more in regulation. They are young and don't know jow to finish on the road. They don't have a guy to feed in the post when the offense gets stagnant. They wet themselves tonight that's all. to their credit they tried to pull it together but came up short. They are 1 and 1. If they finish 10 and 10 which is possible they dance and it is a good season. relax boys there are a lot of games to be played.
…let Oso eat down low. Set a play for a cutting Omax.
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When you get 62 points in the paint, you shouldn't be out shot 49-19 at the line. That was a joke. We lived inside and didn't get rewarded for that. Biggest FT disparity in more than 12 years. Biggest foul disparity as well. Top-10 FTR for Providence under Cooley. That game was a massive statistical outlier because there was a disparity in how PC was handled and how we were handled. The numbers back that up.
What numbers are you referring to?
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What numbers are you referring to?
https://twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/1605570307955343360?s=20&t=C_E_1gu2lPQkTdhI4ohY2w
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When you get 62 points in the paint, you shouldn't be out shot 49-19 at the line. That was a joke. We lived inside and didn't get rewarded for that. Biggest FT disparity in more than 12 years. Biggest foul disparity as well. Top-10 FTR for Providence under Cooley. That game was a massive statistical outlier because there was a disparity in how PC was handled and how we were handled. The numbers back that up.
Shaka and Co. is 0 for 4 in "Win Any Way" games.
That motto has been nothing but lip service so far this year.
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https://twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/1605570307955343360?s=20&t=C_E_1gu2lPQkTdhI4ohY2w
This is the NBA but...
https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/ubk9t0/free_throw_myths_points_in_the_paint_and_drives/
"Most notable is that points in the paint is a weak indicator of free throw attempts. Just looking at a box score and seeing who scores more in the paint doesn't really tell you which side should have more free throws. Also, driving has essentially no correlation with free throw attempts. Noting which team was driving more doesn't tell you much."
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It's obvious that Cooley was tired of Marquette just marching down the lane, so he got physical. Not by reaching and grabbing, but by having their players get in front of them.
Ah yes! Now you’ve enlightened me!
Cooley, the 10,000 IQ coach, made the adjustment no one saw coming. He told his players to stop not playing defense and get between their man and the basket! So genius of Cooley to pull out the concept of defense in just the last 5 minutes of regulation. Wow.
Your posts remind of the Skip Bayless clip where he keeps saying the Mavs just “wanted it more” in 2011. You have extremely low technical basketball knowledge, sadly.
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Ah yes! Now you’ve enlightened me!
Cooley, the 10,000 IQ coach, made the adjustment no one saw coming. He told his players to stop not playing defense and get between their man and the basket! So genius of Cooley to pull out the concept of defense in just the last 5 minutes of regulation. Wow.
Your posts remind of the Skip Bayless clip where he keeps saying the Mavs just “wanted it more” in 2011. You have extremely low technical basketball knowledge, sadly.
I mean, you have come up with nothing concrete that somehow shows you have some sort of superior basketball knowledge.
I just have a feeling you THINK you understand basketball...but you really don't. My suggestion is you learn more and report back to me. Or continue to be wrong. Either way, I'm good.
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What numbers are you referring to?
The PT thread touches on it. We had a historically bad whistle last night. An unprecedented whistle for a team that lived in the paint the entire game. Hopkins had the first 20/20 game in history without being called for a foul.
It isn't opinion that last night was a historical outlier in terms of the whistle. It's a statistical fact. Though my opinion would be that had the refs treated Kam Jones the same way they treated Devin Carter, the game never would've got to overtime.
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I mean, you have come up with nothing concrete that somehow shows you have some sort of superior basketball knowledge.
Factually the free throw disparity in this game was 49-19. That is beyond the realm of normalcy.
If you watched the game (I can’t help you watch the game) it was clear and obvious that the refs fell for the home court trap and Providence was rewarded accordingly.
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The PT thread touches on it. We had a historically bad whistle last night. An unprecedented whistle for a team that lived in the paint the entire game. Hopkins had the first 20/20 game in history without being called for a foul.
It isn't opinion that last night was a historical outlier in terms of the whistle. It's a statistical fact. Though my opinion would be that had the refs treated Kam Jones the same way they treated Devin Carter, the game never would've got to overtime.
Last year, I could buy the idea that Marquette was on the short end of the free throw disparity given their reliance on shooting threes. However, that was not the case last nite. Marquette was getting to the paint just as much as Providence; however, only one team was rewarded for it by the officials.
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Factually the free throw disparity in this game was 49-19. That is beyond the realm of normalcy.
If you watched the game (I can’t help you watch the game) it was clear and obvious that the refs fell for the home court trap and Providence was rewarded accordingly.
The refs are professionals
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The refs are professionals
And professionals can be bad at their job sometimes?
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If this was 2018 and we had Markus, Rowsey, and Hauser taking 50/75 shots at the arc, I still wouldn't expect that disparity (because Rowsey would've done The Thing twice) but it would be explicable. Last night, with how this team actually played, where shots were taken, the physicality Providence played with, and where our scoring came from, there's no real way to rationalize this as anything other than the massive statistical outlier it was.
The game was not officiated the same on both ends. That's not really a disputable point.
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The PT thread touches on it. We had a historically bad whistle last night. An unprecedented whistle for a team that lived in the paint the entire game. Hopkins had the first 20/20 game in history without being called for a foul.
It isn't opinion that last night was a historical outlier in terms of the whistle. It's a statistical fact. Though my opinion would be that had the refs treated Kam Jones the same way they treated Devin Carter, the game never would've got to overtime.
You're right on target and the PT analysis was quite illuminating. I laughed at the possession where Kam got into the lane and was bodied and basically pushed to the ground and had to do his best Curly Neal dribble from his knees move to retain possession. Meanwhile, Devin Carter got to the line on phantom contact multiple times. It was an absolute joke. Broker should be sending the PT stats to the Big East office and demanding some accountability.
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The refs are professionals
And? 🙄
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When you get 62 points in the paint, you shouldn't be out shot 49-19 at the line. That was a joke. We lived inside and didn't get rewarded for that. Biggest FT disparity in more than 12 years. Biggest foul disparity as well. Top-10 FTR for Providence under Cooley. That game was a massive statistical outlier because there was a disparity in how PC was handled and how we were handled. The numbers back that up.
I didn't catch the game live last night, so watched it after reading all the kvetching about fouls. Almost universally fouls were called when someone with the ball was driving. Body fouls were not typically called, but if you reached in, lowered you hands, or didn't stay vertical, the foul was called. Marquette lowered their hands, reached in, and didn't stay vertical while defending much more than Providence did. Hence the disparity. They should have adjusted and got their body in the way more.
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I didn't catch the game live last night, so watched it after reading all the kvetching about fouls. Almost universally fouls were called when someone with the ball was driving. Body fouls were not typically called, but if you reached in, lowered you hands, or didn't stay vertical, the foul was called. Marquette lowered their hands, reached in, and didn't stay vertical while defending much more than Providence did. Hence the disparity. They should have adjusted and got their body in the way more.
Remember this was a double overtime game. The question is not did Marquette foul more than Providence. We all agree on that.
The question is was the fouls disparity as wide as it was called?
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The question is was the fouls disparity as wide as it was called?
"Actual" fouls? Not likely. Fouls from reaching in, lowering their arms, or not staying vertical? Yes. It was simple to see what they were calling, and Marquette kept doing it.
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"Actual" fouls? Not likely. Fouls from reaching in, lowering their arms, or not staying vertical? Yes. It was simple to see what they were calling, and Marquette kept doing it.
So you agree the refs called a poor game that inherently disadvantaged Marquette.
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So you agree the refs called a poor game that inherently disadvantaged Marquette.
The refs weren't great, but Marquette took themselves out of the game by continuing to foul the same way all game, when Providence did not foul that way as often.
I'm just saying, objectively, Marquette didn't adjust to the refs - which is something that should happen in every game. See what refs are and aren't calling - and do those things or don't.
Refs never call / catch all the fouls, but *usually* a crew is consistent in how a particular game is called. Cooley recognized this, and informed them when they "missed' calls they had been making. Smart guy.
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Factually the free throw disparity in this game was 49-19. That is beyond the realm of normalcy.
If you watched the game (I can’t help you watch the game) it was clear and obvious that the refs fell for the home court trap and Providence was rewarded accordingly.
You gotta do better than this. Just stating stats does not indicate anything.
"Actual" fouls? Not likely. Fouls from reaching in, lowering their arms, or not staying vertical? Yes. It was simple to see what they were calling, and Marquette kept doing it.
Yep.
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And? 🙄
They called a fine game
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The PT thread touches on it. We had a historically bad whistle last night. An unprecedented whistle for a team that lived in the paint the entire game. Hopkins had the first 20/20 game in history without being called for a foul.
It isn't opinion that last night was a historical outlier in terms of the whistle. It's a statistical fact. Though my opinion would be that had the refs treated Kam Jones the same way they treated Devin Carter, the game never would've got to overtime.
As I posted earlier. Just saying its an outlier, without any indication of causation, doesn't mean much.
This is the NBA but...
https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/ubk9t0/free_throw_myths_points_in_the_paint_and_drives/
"Most notable is that points in the paint is a weak indicator of free throw attempts. Just looking at a box score and seeing who scores more in the paint doesn't really tell you which side should have more free throws. Also, driving has essentially no correlation with free throw attempts. Noting which team was driving more doesn't tell you much."
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The refs weren't great, but Marquette took themselves out of the game by continuing to foul the same way all game, when Providence did not foul that way as often.
I'm just saying, objectively, Marquette didn't adjust to the refs - which is something that should happen in every game. Se what refs are and aren't calling - and do those things or don't.
Refs never call / catch all the fouls, but *usually* a crew is consistent in how a particular game is called. Cooley recognized this, and informed them when they "missed' calls they had been making. Smart guy.
Sounds like “refs were trash but we should’ve won anyway”.
Fair enough argument but doesn’t discount the fact that the refs were trash. Statistically they were bad. It’s hard enough to win on the road in this conference.
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Sounds like “refs were trash but we should’ve won anyway”.
Fair enough argument but doesn’t discount the fact that the refs were trash. Statistically they were bad. It’s hard enough to win on the road in this conference.
That's not what I'm saying. That's what you think - and that's ok (and a little misguided).
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You gotta do better than this. Just stating stats does not indicate anything.
Fouls in basketball are, on their face, subjective.
There is nothing “concrete” I can show you that will get you to understand that the game was called inconsistently in favor of Providence other than the game film.
Do you understand this?
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That's not what I'm saying. That's what you think - and that's ok (and a little misguided).
Ok how about this “refs were trash and Marquette didn’t properly adjust to their trash”
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"Actual" fouls? Not likely. Fouls from reaching in, lowering their arms, or not staying vertical? Yes. It was simple to see what they were calling, and Marquette kept doing it.
When you're allowed to continually bury a shoulder into the defenders chest their arms are not going to stay vertical.
Regardless, I can't wait for the rematch. A repeat of last season wouldn't surprise me.
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If we were looking at a 40-30 FT disparity, I might agree. But unprecedentedly historic disparities considering the way the game was played stand out.
I'm not going Lisa Joplin, but the game was not called the same way on both ends. Attack Kam was in effect and wasn't rewarded while wild Devin Carter was rewarded. And zero fouls on Hopkins was ridiculous.
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If we were looking at a 40-30 FT disparity, I might agree. But unprecedentedly historic disparities considering the way the game was played stand out.
I'm not going Lisa Joplin, but the game was not called the same way on both ends. Attack Kam was in effect and wasn't rewarded while wild Devin Carter was rewarded. And zero fouls on Hopkins was ridiculous.
For sure. Unfortunately, the team had their opportunities in spite of the foul situation. Just did not get it done. Shaka needs to school the guys on blocking out.
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If we were looking at a 40-30 FT disparity, I might agree. But unprecedentedly historic disparities considering the way the game was played stand out.
I'm not going Lisa Joplin, but the game was not called the same way on both ends. Attack Kam was in effect and wasn't rewarded while wild Devin Carter was rewarded. And zero fouls on Hopkins was ridiculous.
Completely agree on the Devin Carter fouls. Not sure why the refs were rewarding those completely out of control drives. Both fouls to start OT were maddening.
I thought Hopkins earned a lot of his free throws and our guys got frustrated with his physicality and aggressiveness.
Weird game though. It’s not like these are refs from a different conference or something. Those guys have been doing our games for years so not sure what the deal was last night.
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I didn’t notice any they missed.
I didn't think the officiating was so bad, either. The only obvious one I thought was missed was when Kam drove baseline and threw the pass that went through Kolek's hands. Kam got bumped pretty good on his drive twice before making the pass. It was the one time they showed Shaka all over the ref.
But even on that one, he still made a good pass and there was no reason for Kolek to muff it.
Oso got away with a pretty obvious travel that led to a 3 for our last lead of the game.
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Not a foul, but I also enjoyed PC getting a timeout in the backcourt with 20 seconds on the shot clock.
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Not a foul, but I also enjoyed PC getting a timeout in the backcourt with 20 seconds on the shot clock.
Called by Cooley, not a player on the floor.
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For sure. Unfortunately, the team had their opportunities in spite of the foul situation. Just did not get it done. Shaka needs to school the guys on blocking out.
Yup. Totally could've and maybe should've won in spite of it. A little better shooting and offensive execution down the stretch, going zone sooner, any number of factors could've tilted it. But the reffing was one of those factors.
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Kolek had two strange turnovers at around the 2 minute mark of regulation. On one, the ball jumped out of his hands. On the next one, the ball seemed to go right through him (from Kam).
Was he fowled on either? They never zoomed in on either of those. I replayed and had a hard time seeing what exactly happened.
From memory, on the first one, no, he seemed to fairly get stripped. He made a bad mistake dribbling into a double team.
He also was not fouled on the 2nd one, but Kam absolutely was. He was slammed twice, forcing him to make a pass before landing out of bounds. TK again, made a bad turnover when the ball fell out of his hands, but there is no question Kam should have been at the FT line instead of it resulting in a TO.
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Called by Cooley, not a player on the floor.
Sure, but that doesn't change 10 seconds ticked off the clock before the timeout was given.
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I didn't catch the game live last night, so watched it after reading all the kvetching about fouls. Almost universally fouls were called when someone with the ball was driving. Body fouls were not typically called, but if you reached in, lowered you hands, or didn't stay vertical, the foul was called. Marquette lowered their hands, reached in, and didn't stay vertical while defending much more than Providence did. Hence the disparity. They should have adjusted and got their body in the way more.
Perhaps, but I'm pretty sure a body blow that sends the person backwards, as happened to Jop on the bucket that tied it, should still be called a foul, just as I'm pretty sure body slamming Kam both out of bounds and (separately) to the floor in the lane should still be called fouls.
And to add, on the one that Kam was knocked to the ground, when he regained his feet the Providence player grabbed him to pull him back from going towards the basket.
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Perhaps, but I'm pretty sure a body blow that sends the person backwards, as happened to Jop on the bucket that tied it, should still be called a foul, just as I'm pretty sure body slamming Kam both out of bounds and (separately) to the floor in the lane should still be called fouls.
Agreed. Croswell tried to jump vertically on Joplin but you can see he jumps at the top of the restricted arc and lands on the baseline end of the arc, while chest bumping Joplin to the ground. No way he stayed vertical. That’s an and one.
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One thing the erfs were definitely bad at was tossing up the ball on a jump ball. On all three occasions the toss was too high for either player and PC got it coming down.
The refs made up for it in OT and DOT by calling a foul on MU within 4 seconds. There was no shortage of contact from either team, but one team got a ton more leeway on the whistles.
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Sure, but that doesn't change 10 seconds ticked off the clock before the timeout was given.
A player on the floor is only allowed to call a time out during live action, unless it is within the last 2 minutes of each half or overtime when a coach can. IIRC, this was not within the last two minutes.
If so (and the rule hasn't changed again recently), Driscoll gave MU a double wedgie.
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I didn't catch the game live last night, so watched it after reading all the kvetching about fouls. Almost universally fouls were called when someone with the ball was driving. Body fouls were not typically called, but if you reached in, lowered you hands, or didn't stay vertical, the foul was called. Marquette lowered their hands, reached in, and didn't stay vertical while defending much more than Providence did. Hence the disparity. They should have adjusted and got their body in the way more.
The problem with accepting this explanation for such an unprecedented statistical disparity is we have to believe Shaka is an abject moron. I can see this in bits and pieces, but the size of the disparity requires that Shaka and every other coach and player be oblivious to why so many more fouls are being called on MU, and that no ever bothers to ask any of the officials why they were calling so many more fouls on MU. Or we have to believe that despite being told the cause, the players just kept on doing the thing that was within their control but killing them. Granted either might be the case, but if it is and our coaches and players really are this clueless, we are well and truly screwed.
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I think the stretch at the end of the game where we blew an 8 point lead and didn’t score for around 5 minutes was far more negative than the refs favoring the home team who lives inside while we’re a small jump shooting team who has trouble defending inside.
Not to say the refs were decent, but cmon. Score a bucket or two at the end of regulation and we win easily. This loss is squarely on us and any other blame is avoiding discussion on our flaws.
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I think the stretch at the end of the game where we blew an 8 point lead and didn’t score for around 5 minutes was far more negative than the refs favoring the home team who lives inside while we’re a small jump shooting team who has trouble defending inside.
Not to say the refs were decent, but cmon. Score a bucket or two at the end of regulation and we win easily. This loss is squarely on us and any other blame is avoiding discussion on our flaws.
Both are true -- MU shouldn't have blown the lead, and the refs were ridiculous in the disparity in how they called the game. Further, MU wasn't a jump shooting team at Providence, they drove at will and outscored the Friars in the paint.
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I think the stretch at the end of the game where we blew an 8 point lead and didn’t score for around 5 minutes was far more negative than the refs favoring the home team who lives inside while we’re a small jump shooting team who has trouble defending inside.
Not to say the refs were decent, but cmon. Score a bucket or two at the end of regulation and we win easily. This loss is squarely on us and any other blame is avoiding discussion on our flaws.
Agreed. Don't make the refs relevant. I can't help but think of Kolek with a chance to take a pretty easy layup to go up 9 but instead kicking out to Stevie for a 3 to try and go up 10. Stevie is shooting what like 15% from 3?
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Both are true -- MU shouldn't have blown the lead, and the refs were ridiculous in the disparity in how they called the game. Further, MU wasn't a jump shooting team at Providence, they drove at will and outscored the Friars in the paint.
One thing is controlled by the team and one thing isn’t. Control what you can control.
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I think the stretch at the end of the game where we blew an 8 point lead and didn’t score for around 5 minutes was far more negative than the refs favoring the home team who lives inside while we’re a small jump shooting team who has trouble defending inside.
Not to say the refs were decent, but cmon. Score a bucket or two at the end of regulation and we win easily. This loss is squarely on us and any other blame is avoiding discussion on our flaws.
We’re a jump shooting team with over 60 points in the paint yesterday? Come on now, we’ve done a real good job getting inside in our last six games or so, no way can you designate that a jump shooting team.
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A player on the floor is only allowed to call a time out during live action, unless it is within the last minutes of each half or overtime when a coach can. IIRC, this was not within the last two minutes.
If so (and the rule hasn't changed again recently), Driscoll gave MU a double wedgie.
Better or worse than a Driscoll double T?
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Agreed. Don't make the refs relevant. I can't help but think of Kolek with a chance to take a pretty easy layup to go up 9 but instead kicking out to Stevie for a 3 to try and go up 10. Stevie is shooting what like 15% from 3?
24% but he is 0 for his last 9 and his form has looked horrible. Shot 40% in his first 6 games, 1 for 14 in his last 7. It's in his head at this point.
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One thing is controlled by the team and one thing isn’t. Control what you can control.
Both things--MU performance, and terrible refs--are true.
Your jumpshooting excuse for the latter is just wrong.
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The refs were fine. PC was just too physical for MU. When you recruit prong and lean athletes, and don’t rebound well, this happens.
This is why some lament the lack of bugs on this team. Oso is the only one and he’s not exactly built.
Ya kant sey dat heer, hey?
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If we were looking at a 40-30 FT disparity, I might agree. But unprecedentedly historic disparities considering the way the game was played stand out.
I'm not going Lisa Joplin, but the game was not called the same way on both ends. Attack Kam was in effect and wasn't rewarded while wild Devin Carter was rewarded. And zero fouls on Hopkins was ridiculous.
Unrelated.. David Joplin was HORRRIFIC last night. He had his third best "individual" offensive game of the season last night (offensive rating) last night. He played more offensive possessions than defensive possessions. AND STILL he finished the game -12.
That shouldn't be possible.
Its almost time for Ross to get off the bench before him.
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Ya kant sey dat heer, hey?
Plenty of people say that. It’s been mentioned hundreds of times.
Shaka is currently putting together a program of athletes at the cost of traditional bigs. Kur Kuath helped cover a lot of that last year. Shaka has implemented a style and type of play and athlete he wants. Bemoaning the lack of a dominant rebounder is fine but misses the larger picture
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We’re a jump shooting team with over 60 points in the paint yesterday? Come on now, we’ve done a real good job getting inside in our last six games or so, no way can you designate that a jump shooting team.
3’s and dunks. That’s what Nevada and Shaka preached since the day they arrived. We have a mediocre free throw rate this season while pc is elite. Ref show or not, I’m not shocked the team that lives at the free throw line got to the free throw line a ton while the finesse team didn’t get to the line as much.
End of the day, when a good team is up eight points with five and a half minutes left, that eight point lead usually balloons to double figures as the game dwindles with the trailing team fouling. Instead our offense shut off, needless turns and misses all while we got pushed around inside giving up boards and easy buckets. If we correct our mistakes, or avoid them all together, we’re not even having this stupid refereeing conversation. An eight point lead with five minutes to play for a team of our supposed caliber should close out a mediocre team like pc, home or road, easily.
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One thing the erfs were definitely bad at was tossing up the ball on a jump ball. On all three occasions the toss was too high for either player and PC got it coming down.
The refs made up for it in OT and DOT by calling a foul on MU within 4 seconds.
The one that really pissed me off was the toss in the second OT. It almost couldn't have been worse ... and then they called the sh!tty foul right after that. Infuriating.
Joplin definitely was fouled on his bucket near the end of regulation ... but the way things were going for us he would have missed the FT anyway (though I would have liked for him to have had the chance).
Still, I'm sticking with "refs were not good but Marquette didn't play well enough to win when the game was on the line." You can't give up offensive rebounds on 5 missed FTs, including 3x in the 2 OTs. You can't stop playing your offense for 7 minutes at the end of a close game. You can't refuse to use your timeouts when your team desperately needed to be coached up. Etc etc etc. None of that was the refs' fault.
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I’m not shocked the team that lives at the free throw line got to the free throw line a ton while the finesse team didn’t get to the line as much.
Marquette was not a finesse team last night. Sigh.
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Marquette was not a finesse team last night. Sigh.
Good point - the refs were out to get them
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Unrelated.. David Joplin was HORRRIFIC last night. He had his third best "individual" offensive game of the season last night (offensive rating) last night. He played more offensive possessions than defensive possessions. AND STILL he finished the game -12.
That shouldn't be possible.
Its almost time for Ross to get off the bench before him.
Oddly enough, Marquette went cold at the end of regulation when Joplin was put in for Stevie.
Joplin is a much more capable scorer, but Stevie keeps the ball and offense moving. Joplin has no clue how to pass. If it is in his hands it is going up.
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Good point - the refs were out to get them
Which nobody said. But using a hyperbolic trope is certainly one way to go when your point has been demolished.
You come up with a point of view, then try to craft a narrative to support that, facts be damned.
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Which nobody said. But using a hyperbolic trope is certainly one way to go when your point has been demolished.
You come up with a point of view, then try to craft a narrative to support that, facts be damned.
Actually, at least one poster last night said that the refereeing was “biased” which to me is a step beyond inconsistency or incompetence and suggests an intentional effort on the part of the referees to favor one team over the other.
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Which nobody said. But using a hyperbolic trope is certainly one way to go when your point has been demolished.
You come up with a point of view, then try to craft a narrative to support that, facts be damned.
So what’s the talking point if the refereeing crew didn’t favor pc over mu like it appears many on here are alluding to ?
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I think the stretch at the end of the game where we blew an 8 point lead and didn’t score for around 5 minutes was far more negative than the refs favoring the home team who lives inside while we’re a small jump shooting team who has trouble defending inside.
Not to say the refs were decent, but cmon. Score a bucket or two at the end of regulation and we win easily. This loss is squarely on us and any other blame is avoiding discussion on our flaws.
Yeah, but how do you explain All-World, clutch coach Ed Cooley's team losing an 8 point lead in 1:40 seconds in OT?
Your take on this topic, like Sultan, is just silly. Read the Paint Touches tweet. What happened last night has happened all of 3 times in 13 years in a Big East game. In those 3 games, the team who shot LESS 3-point shots was never the team who gave up 30 more FT attempts, AND in those 3 games the highest number of shots taken at the rim by the team going -30 in FT attempts was 20. We took 38 shots at the rim last night. So, in other words last night was historical in every way, shape, and form as it relates to getting a crappy whistle.
Quite frankly, the fact we were even in the game is a testament to the will of the team and moxie of Shaka. That aside, it doesn't mean he didn't make an error in not trying to stem the tide some in the last 5 minutes.
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Yeah, but how do you explain All-World, clutch coach Ed Cooley's team losing an 8 point lead in 1:40 seconds in OT?
Your take on this topic, like Sultan, is just silly. Read the Paint Touches tweet. What happened last night has happened all of 3 times in 13 years in a Big East game. In those 3 games, the team who shot LESS 3-point shots was never the team who gave up 30 more FT attempts, AND in those 3 games the highest number of shots taken at the rim by the team going -30 in FT attempts was 20. We took 38 shots at the rim last night. So, in other words last night was historical in every way, shape, and form as it relates to getting a crappy whistle.
Quite frankly, the fact we were even in the game is a testament to the will of the team and moxie of Shaka. That aside, it doesn't mean he didn't make an error in not trying to stem the tide some in the last 5 minutes.
Speaking of hypotheticals, what would your postgame reaction be given the exact same game circumstances if Wojo was on the sideline and not Shaka ?
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Speaking of hypotheticals, what would your postgame reaction be given the exact same game circumstances if Wojo was on the sideline and not Shaka ?
🍿
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Speaking of hypotheticals, what would your postgame reaction be given the exact same game circumstances if Wojo was on the sideline and not Shaka ?
I'd say we got a bad whistle if all of the facts were the same. We aren't a soft team like Wojo's teams were. We may not be thick-bodied at the 4 and 5, but this team attacks the basket, and is far more athletic than any of Wojo's. We scored 60 unnatural carnal knowledgeing points in the paint.
That aside, Wojo was clueless. If you really want to get into that game, I'm willing to wager any amount of money you'd like that we won't finish 97th in Ken Pom under Shaka in Year 2 as we did Wojo.
But back to Ed Cooley - How could such an amazing coach, with the whistle on his side, at home, have a team lose an 8 point lead with 100 seconds left in a game?
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The one that really pissed me off was the toss in the second OT. It almost couldn't have been worse ... and then they called the sh!tty foul right after that. Infuriating.
Joplin definitely was fouled on his bucket near the end of regulation ... but the way things were going for us he would have missed the FT anyway (though I would have liked for him to have had the chance).
Still, I'm sticking with "refs were not good but Marquette didn't play well enough to win when the game was on the line." You can't give up offensive rebounds on 5 missed FTs, including 3x in the 2 OTs. You can't stop playing your offense for 7 minutes at the end of a close game. You can't refuse to use your timeouts when your team desperately needed to be coached up. Etc etc etc. None of that was the refs' fault.
The way the game was going I was surprised Jop wasn't called for charging.
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So what’s the talking point if the refereeing crew didn’t favor pc over mu like it appears many on here are alluding to ?
If the game were called the same on both ends of the floor, the talking point would be a conference road win and rare 2-0 league start.
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Yeah, but how do you explain All-World, clutch coach Ed Cooley's team losing an 8 point lead in 1:40 seconds in OT?
Your take on this topic, like Sultan, is just silly. Read the Paint Touches tweet. What happened last night has happened all of 3 times in 13 years in a Big East game. In those 3 games, the team who shot LESS 3-point shots was never the team who gave up 30 more FT attempts, AND in those 3 games the highest number of shots taken at the rim by the team going -30 in FT attempts was 20. We took 38 shots at the rim last night. So, in other words last night was historical in every way, shape, and form as it relates to getting a crappy whistle.
Quite frankly, the fact we were even in the game is a testament to the will of the team and moxie of Shaka. That aside, it doesn't mean he didn't make an error in not trying to stem the tide some in the last 5 minutes.
You, brew and Paint Touches are engaging in the same false narrative. Just because something rare happens, where one doesn’t have correlation to another (points in the paint correlating to fouls) that doesn’t really mean anything.
Really disappointing effort by PT. Usually they don’t buy into silly stuff like this.
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You, brew and Paint Touches are engaging in the same false narrative. Just because something rare happens, where one doesn’t have correlation to another (points in the paint correlating to fouls) that doesn’t really mean anything.
Really disappointing effort by PT. Usually they don’t buy into silly stuff like this.
No, you're choosing to ignore the statistical facts around this because you don't like the narrative it leads to.
News flash: refs are human. They are inconsistent. They are influenced by crowds and coaches. They make mistakes. Last night the game was not called consistently on both ends. The way Kam and Carter were handled was not the same. It happens. And it isn't an infrequent occurrence.
It's not the sole reason Marquette lost. But amidst the factors that led to the loss, reffing was undisputably one of them. Despite that, we still had a chance to win. Turnovers, poor offensive execution, and not being able to rebound in the zone were other factors that prevented that. But reffing was a factor and when you have multiple "this has never happened before" reffing situations at the same time, it's okay to accept that fact.
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You, brew and Paint Touches are engaging in the same false narrative. Just because something rare happens, where one doesn’t have correlation to another (points in the paint correlating to fouls) that doesn’t really mean anything.
Really disappointing effort by PT. Usually they don’t buy into silly stuff like this.
Like moth to a flame, Sultan to the defense of referees and suggesting they don't have bad nights, or get influenced a degree by the home team's coach/crowd.
Points in the paint is indicative of taking the ball to the basket, which we did, repeatedly...and rarely got any whistles in our favor while on O. Meanwhile, on D, their guards - Carter and Breed - got 20 FT attempts. Kam took 12 2-point shots in the paint and got 2 FT attempts. He was basically bodied to the ground and had to do a Curly Neal dribble from his knees to retain possession and didn't get a whistle.
I generally don't take a blame the refs approach and have agreed with you on this topic in games in the past, however, last night was historically bad and there's just no two ways around that.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Providence is a more physical team and likely should/would shoot more FTs, but no to the level of a 30 FT differential. And it took that much of a differential for them to be able to beat us on their home court in 2OT...and we have some COLE/MOPE posters here thinking Shaka is the second coming of Wojo FFS.
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Elon
It is a waste of timing discussing the team with the COLE crew. They have written Joplin off three times already, blow hot and cold on Omax on a game by game basis, written Kolek off countless times over past one plus seasons and the list goes on and on.
They are either very negative people, do not know the game or are just miserable people. Seeing the take on Joplin from some posters on scoop flat out disappoints me. Not that guys cannot be criticized, but going to extremes on a game to game basis.
By the way, Joplin looked pretty good in the paint last night. I think we will be seeing more and more of him scoring in the post.
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If the game were called the same on both ends of the floor, the talking point would be a conference road win and rare 2-0 league start.
Which referee was responsible for missing a bunch of shots down the stretch and turning the ball over several times with an 8 point lead ?
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Which referee was responsible for missing a bunch of shots down the stretch and turning the ball over several times with an 8 point lead ?
Brew has already stated this was a big reason why they lost. None of the people saying the refs sucked have said that stretch was unimportant or not a very big reason why they lost. BOTH THE REFS SUCKING AND MARQUETTE SUCKING down the stretch can be true.
It isn’t complicated
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I'd say we got a bad whistle if all of the facts were the same. We aren't a soft team like Wojo's teams were. We may not be thick-bodied at the 4 and 5, but this team attacks the basket, and is far more athletic than any of Wojo's. We scored 60 unnatural carnal knowledgeing points in the paint.
That aside, Wojo was clueless. If you really want to get into that game, I'm willing to wager any amount of money you'd like that we won't finish 97th in Ken Pom under Shaka in Year 2 as we did Wojo.
But back to Ed Cooley - How could such an amazing coach, with the whistle on his side, at home, have a team lose an 8 point lead with 100 seconds left in a game?
Yep I’m sure you’d be totally measured and composed if we blew a game with an eight point lead, five minutes left against an inferior opponent and we struggled to get shots up down the stretch.
Shaka > Wojo. Not even up for debate.
I never brought Cooley up. You did. Not sure how that’s relevant to our conversation.
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Question about the timeout in the backcourt and no 10 sec call: if a team calls timeout with 0 on the shot clock would refs give it to them?
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Elon
It is a waste of timing discussing the team with the COLE crew. They have written Joplin off three times already, blow hot and cold on Omax on a game by game basis, written Kolek off countless times over past one plus seasons and the list goes on and on.
They are either very negative people, do not know the game or are just miserable people. Seeing the take on Joplin from some posters on scoop flat out disappoints me. Not that guys cannot be criticized, but going to extremes on a game to game basis.
By the way, Joplin looked pretty good in the paint last night. I think we will be seeing more and more of him scoring in the post.
Great post Goose. I will say Joplin, for me, has been a maddening player, as in it seems like its been either the best of times with Jop, or the worst of times. But, I can certainly see his potential, yet think he needs another good year of strength/conditioning improvement to max out his potential. But, he no doubt can be an asset this year. I would like to see him use better judgement in transition. He got bailed out last night on a play where the easy, evident play was to throw a lob to Chase for an alley-oop but he chose to take the shot and probably should have been called for a charge.
I've always been a big O-Max and Kolek fan. Like you, I'm very bullish on Shaka and the program's trajectory. Shaka is the real deal. Yet that doesn't mean he won't have some off nights too.
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Yep I’m sure you’d be totally measured and composed if we blew a game with an eight point lead, five minutes left against an inferior opponent and we struggled to get shots up down the stretch.
Shaka > Wojo. Not even up for debate.
I never brought Cooley up. You did. Not sure how that’s relevant to our conversation.
You brought up Wojo, which brings coaching into the conversation. You are complaining about us losing a game where we were up 8 with 5 minutes left in a game, and acting as if losing such a game is virtually impossible. I pointed out the fact Providence lost an 8 point lead with 1:40 left, at home, with a favorable whistle on their side. We have some Scooper posting how clutch of coach Cooley is and some here are questioning Shaka's coaching/comparing him to Wojo. It's absurd.
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David Joplin is third among Big East players in trey shooting (total season) at 46%. Such a problem.
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You brought up Wojo, which brings coaching into the conversation. You are complaining about us losing a game where we were up 8 with 5 minutes left in a game, and acting as if losing such a game is virtually impossible. I pointed out the fact Providence lost an 8 point lead with 1:40 left, at home, with a favorable whistle on their side. We have some Scooper posting how clutch of coach Cooley is and some here are questioning Shaka's coaching/comparing him to Wojo. It's absurd.
I asked how you would react in the exact same circumstances if Wojo was on the sidelines instead of Shaka to show your extreme bias of the situation.
If Wojo was the coach, you would have an absolute conniption (rightfully so) after they blew that lead. Now shaka is the coach and it’s all gravy regardless ? It was a poorly managed last five minute stretch last night. That doesn’t change our extremely positive program trajectory or the fact that Wojo stunk. You’re just too biased to be taken seriously.
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No, you're choosing to ignore the statistical facts around this because you don't like the narrative it leads to.
News flash: refs are human. They are inconsistent. They are influenced by crowds and coaches. They make mistakes. Last night the game was not called consistently on both ends. The way Kam and Carter were handled was not the same. It happens. And it isn't an infrequent occurrence.
It's not the sole reason Marquette lost. But amidst the factors that led to the loss, reffing was undisputably one of them. Despite that, we still had a chance to win. Turnovers, poor offensive execution, and not being able to rebound in the zone were other factors that prevented that. But reffing was a factor and when you have multiple "this has never happened before" reffing situations at the same time, it's okay to accept that fact.
You're mixing up "facts" and "opinions" again.
Not a good look.
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Like moth to a flame, Sultan to the defense of referees and suggesting they don't have bad nights, or get influenced a degree by the home team's coach/crowd.
Points in the paint is indicative of taking the ball to the basket, which we did, repeatedly...and rarely got any whistles in our favor while on O. Meanwhile, on D, their guards - Carter and Breed - got 20 FT attempts. Kam took 12 2-point shots in the paint and got 2 FT attempts. He was basically bodied to the ground and had to do a Curly Neal dribble from his knees to retain possession and didn't get a whistle.
I generally don't take a blame the refs approach and have agreed with you on this topic in games in the past, however, last night was historically bad and there's just no two ways around that.
I don't think anyone is arguing that Providence is a more physical team and likely should/would shoot more FTs, but no to the level of a 30 FT differential. And it took that much of a differential for them to be able to beat us on their home court in 2OT...and we have some COLE/MOPE posters here thinking Shaka is the second coming of Wojo FFS.
As I posted earlier, at least in the NBA, neither points in the paint nor drives to the basket correlate positively with fouls.
This is why things can be labelled as historic outliers, but if there is no correlation, you are just picking random data points. It doesn't tell you anything.
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You're mixing up "facts" and "opinions" again.
Not a good look.
Can you ever respond with substance?
Or is it all sanctimonious snark to mask the fact that you’ve actually got nothing?
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Can you ever respond with substance?
Or is it all sanctimonious snark to mask the fact that you’ve actually got nothing?
I have. You have either missed it or failed to understand it.
You'll claim the former. It's for sure the latter.
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I have. You have either missed it or failed to understand it.
You'll claim the former. It's for sure the latter.
More sanctimonious snark that lacks substance.
No shock.
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More sanctimonious snark that lacks substance.
No shock.
His only friends are make-believe.
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His only friends are make-believe.
He’s the Sultan of Semantics but I have yet to see him win, or even understand, a semantic argument.
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More sanctimonious snark that lacks substance.
No shock.
Again, go back and look. You will find it. Not doing your work for you.
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You're mixing up "facts" and "opinions" again.
Not a good look.
No, I made the distinction earlier. You're ignoring facts. The numbers are what they are. You're entitled to your own opinion, but that doesn't change the facts, no matter how obstinate you choose to be.
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Which referee was responsible for missing a bunch of shots down the stretch and turning the ball over several times with an 8 point lead ?
Did he say that? No. But you'll contort yourself silly and make non-sensical "arguments" like the above rather than ever concede that maybe your initial hot take isn't supported by actual facts.
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I’m at Costco today. I see an old guy in the liquor section loading up his cart. I notice his Marquette jacket. I walk by and chime “tough 2OT loss last night for MU”. His reply…. ”refs screwed us”.
That’s it. Debate over. Done.
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No, I made the distinction earlier. You're ignoring facts. The numbers are what they are. You're entitled to your own opinion, but that doesn't change the facts, no matter how obstinate you choose to be.
You posted facts that don't correlate. Drawing conclusions based on that are definitely opinions. It's not hard.
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A player on the floor is only allowed to call a time out during live action, unless it is within the last minutes of each half or overtime when a coach can. IIRC, this was not within the last two minutes.
If so (and the rule hasn't changed again recently), Driscoll gave MU a double wedgie.
Ah I understand what you are saying now.
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Did he say that? No. But you'll contort yourself silly and make non-sensical "arguments" like the above rather than ever concede that maybe your initial hot take isn't supported by actual facts.
I’m confused. All this talk about how last nights foul discrepancy was a statistical anomaly and such a rare occurrence leads me to believe some fans think the refs are more to blame for the loss rather than the team who blew an eight point lead with five minutes left.
Am I wrong ?
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Viper
Unlike PointWarrior I do not have multiple friends call me to compare this years team/Shaka to the Wojo era, but I did have conversations with several friends and two out of the three noted the refs and said glowing things about the team. One is a SH fan and one is a Nova backer and both watch the BE closely. I think some on here micro manage their view/expectations and miss out on enjoying the program.
I hate losing, but I hated supporting a program in quicksand even more. If you were not a fan of MU and watched the game I think many would have a different perspective than they do as a fan. It was an exciting game with ups and downs for both teams. No moral victory, but we are no longer in quicksand.
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I’m confused. All this talk about how last nights foul discrepancy was a statistical anomaly and such a rare occurrence leads me to believe some fans think the refs are more to blame for the loss rather than the team who blew an eight point lead with five minutes left.
Am I wrong ?
Either or is reasonable
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Either or is reasonable
That’s not how this works lol
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No moral victory, but we are no longer in quicksand.
I recently learned that you can only sink to about waist deep in quicksand, so I think saying the program was in quicksand is being generous. It was more like falling into black tar pit. It feels good to care about the tough losses again versus just complete apathy.
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I’m confused.
Finally something the entire board can agree on.
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Viper
Unlike PointWarrior I do not have multiple friends call me to compare this years team/Shaka to the Wojo era, but I did have conversations with several friends and two out of the three noted the refs and said glowing things about the team. One is a SH fan and one is a Nova backer and both watch the BE closely. I think some on here micro manage their view/expectations and miss out on enjoying the program.
I hate losing, but I hated supporting a program in quicksand even more. If you were not a fan of MU and watched the game I think many would have a different perspective than they do as a fan. It was an exciting game with ups and downs for both teams. No moral victory, but we are no longer in quicksand.
we actually moved up a spot on the Kenpom rating despite last nights defeat. I see us staying in the 25-35 Pomeroy range all season…thinking 12 BE wins, 21 total heading into the tourney as a 7 or 8 seed. From there it’s about matchups. I wish we had another 6’7” wing or an Oso backup, but we’ll make do. I’m very excited for ‘23-24 if the team stays together.
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Finally something the entire board can agree on.
So it’s not the refs fault ? Is providence still just really lucky ?
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Marquette made 9 more field goals last night. Literally, Providence needed the officials to call fouls on Marquette to make up the field goal discrepancy, helping them win.
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I’m confused. All this talk about how last nights foul discrepancy was a statistical anomaly and such a rare occurrence leads me to believe some fans think the refs are more to blame for the loss rather than the team who blew an eight point lead with five minutes left.
Am I wrong ?
How many times does it have to be stated that MU should have been able to win anyway, but that the reffing was astonishingly horrible for you to be able to understand it?
You're not confused. You simply want to argue different tangents when your argument is demolished because you appear to be genetically unable to ever admit you might be mistaken.
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How many times does it have to be stated that MU should have been able to win anyway, but that the reffing was astonishingly horrible for you to be able to understand it?
You're not confused. You simply want to argue different tangents when your argument is demolished because you appear to be genetically unable to ever admit you might be mistaken.
I said it in my first or second post, postgame. Ref show, but no excuse for the last five minutes which we totally threw away the game.
Go ahead and talk about foul discrepancy, but the true reason we lost is our own fault. This game is the perfect example that refereeing can be astonishingly uneven and yet it’s still very easy to point to one’s own faults that, if corrected, would’ve changed the outcome of the game.
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You posted facts that don't correlate. Drawing conclusions based on that are definitely opinions. It's not hard.
You've acknowledged earlier that refs do have bad games where they are inconsistent. You don't think a FT disparity so high that it has only happened three times in 13 years is possible evidence that last night was one of those times?
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I said it in my first or second post, postgame. Ref show, but no excuse for the last five minutes which we totally threw away the game.
Go ahead and talk about foul discrepancy, but the true reason we lost is our own fault. This game is the perfect example that refereeing can be astonishingly uneven and yet it’s still very easy to point to one’s own faults that, if corrected, would’ve changed the outcome of the game.
What if I told you that there can be more than one reason that a team loses a game, especially a game that goes to OT?
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Under Woj we were tryin' ta swim in a pool of dung, aina?
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What if I told you that there can be more than one reason that a team loses a game, especially a game that goes to OT?
Many things contribute to game outcomes. As a coach and player, it’s important to focus on aspects of the game you can control.
Refereeing is mostly out of your control as a player and coach so I like to focus on points of the game that can be changed with various adjustments or different decisions. The last five minutes were ours to win and we lost it with several empty possessions.
Refereeing had nothing to do with turnovers and ugly offense.
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Many things contribute to game outcomes. As a coach and player, it’s important to focus on aspects of the game you can control.
Refereeing is mostly out of your control as a player and coach so I like to focus on points of the game that can be changed with various adjustments or different decisions. The last five minutes were ours to win and we lost it with several empty possessions.
Refereeing had nothing to do with turnovers and ugly offense.
This is where you forget that we’re not coaches or players. We’re fans on a message board. One of the only tools at our disposal is to bitch about something seemingly out of our control.
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Many things contribute to game outcomes. As a coach and player, it’s important to focus on aspects of the game you can control.
What if I told you that scoopers are not coaches or players and everything about Marquette basketball is outside of our control?
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This is where you forget that we’re not coaches or players. We’re fans on a message board. One of the only tools at our disposal is to bitch about something seemingly out of our control.
That’s the first counterpoint i can fully accept lol.
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Many things contribute to game outcomes. As a coach and player, it’s important to focus on aspects of the game you can control.
Refereeing is mostly out of your control as a player and coach so I like to focus on points of the game that can be changed with various adjustments or different decisions. The last five minutes were ours to win and we lost it with several empty possessions.
Refereeing had nothing to do with turnovers and ugly offense.
I agree with what you’re saying. I normally don’t complain about the refs making mistakes because it usually evens out for both teams and you have to play through it.
What’s hard to swallow about this game is that I can’t remember any calls in the game that were blatant calls in Marquette’s favor. I saw us get away with what looked like traveling a couple times, but they were mostly off contact by a defender.
Anybody remember any calls that went blatantly our way?
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What if I told you that scoopers are not coaches or players and everything about Marquette basketball is outside of our control?
Heresy! Besides getting Wojo fired, Scoopdom also saved the manatees and helped corral fugitive cows for repurposed use.
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Under Woj we were tryin' ta swim in a pool of dung, aina?
has nothing to do with topic, but a brief note on Woj…one of my MU roommates from back-in-the-day has a son who was a patient at Children’s Hospital /Wisconsin for an extended period. I contacted Woj to inquire if he might offer a note of encouragement to the kid. Not only did he do that, but also put together a nice MU swag box and team autographed basketball. Woj…not such a good coach, but definitely a good dude. Anyway, back to topic…
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I asked how you would react in the exact same circumstances if Wojo was on the sidelines instead of Shaka to show your extreme bias of the situation.
If Wojo was the coach, you would have an absolute conniption (rightfully so) after they blew that lead. Now shaka is the coach and it’s all gravy regardless ? It was a poorly managed last five minute stretch last night. That doesn’t change our extremely positive program trajectory or the fact that Wojo stunk. You’re just too biased to be taken seriously.
At this point I'm going to just have to write you off as a troll. Why would you even bring Wojo into the conversation? But, I can assure you if Wojo was coaching in a game where MU had a 30 FT attempt disparity, it would have been an absolute blowout loss and wouldn't have stung so much.
The topic at hand is the officiating and 49 FT attempts Providence got. It's practically a miracle we were even in a position to win that game, or should have won that game. You are belaboring us losing an 8 point lead on the road, with a young team, that had to overcome a 30 attempt deficit on the FT line, and a team that is ranked 24th in the country. In Year 2 of Shaka. I've said Shaka could have used a timeout or two to try to stem the tide and get the offense to generate better possessions in the last 5. However, I'm not going to fly off the handle and take Shaka to task and compare him to Wojo FFS.
Still waiting though for an answer as to how a clutch coach like Ed Cooley could lose an 8 point lead on his home floor with 1:40 left in a game where the whistle was clearly tilted his way?
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At this point I'm going to just have to write you off as a troll. Why would you even bring Wojo into the conversation? But, I can assure you if Wojo was coaching in a game where MU had a 30 FT attempt disparity, it would have been an absolute blowout loss and wouldn't have stung so much.
The topic at hand is the officiating and 49 FT attempts Providence got. It's practically a miracle we were even in a position to win that game, or should have won that game. You are belaboring us losing an 8 point lead on the road, with a young team, that had to overcome a 30 attempt deficit on the FT line, and a team that is ranked 24th in the country. In Year 2 of Shaka. I've said Shaka could have used a timeout or two to try to stem the tide and get the offense to generate better possessions in the last 5. However, I'm not going to fly off the handle and take Shaka to task and compare him to Wojo FFS.
Still waiting though for an answer as to how a clutch coach like Ed Cooley could lose an 8 point lead on his home floor with 1:40 left in a game where the whistle was clearly tilted his way?
I naively asked for a truthful answer for the comparison which turned into this for which I’m now banging my head against a wall.
My take with you - You’re biased. Shaka did a really good job on the road encouraging his team to battle back from being down earlier in the game, but this game was in hand and we let it slip away. Nothing to do with the refereeing.
This isn’t an over arching indictment on Shaka or the team. It was just a bad stretch that some people would rather blame external factors than looming internally.
We’ll be fine. It’s just disheartening to lose in this fashion.
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I naively asked for a truthful answer for the comparison which turned into this for which I’m now banging my head against a wall.
My take with you - You’re biased. Shaka did a really good job on the road encouraging his team to battle back from being down earlier in the game, but this game was in hand and we let it slip away. Nothing to do with the refereeing.
This isn’t an over arching indictment on Shaka or the team. It was just a bad stretch that some people would rather blame external factors than looming internally.
We’ll be fine. It’s just disheartening to lose in this fashion.
If you think it is being "biased" to view Shaka through a different lens than Wojo, knock yourself out. To look at them the same is moronic. Keep banging your head against the wall that refereeing had nothing to with us losing that game. Forget the foul disparity, but us playing 2nd OT with Kolek and OMax fouled out? You don't think that had anything to do with us losing the game?
That aside, good trolling. It has sucked a lot of people into your drivel.
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If you think it is being "biased" to view Shaka through a different lens than Wojo, knock yourself out. To look at them the same is moronic. Keep banging your head against the wall that refereeing had nothing to with us losing that game. Forget the foul disparity, but us playing 2nd OT with Kolek and OMax fouled out? You don't think that had anything to do with us losing the game?
That aside, good trolling. It has sucked a lot of people into your drivel.
Wojo and co blows game - you go nuts (rightfully so)
Shaka and co blows game - it’s the refs fault
Bias personified
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At this point I'm going to just have to write you off as a troll. Why would you even bring Wojo into the conversation?
Says the guy who still places people in Nojo and Projo camps...
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You've acknowledged earlier that refs do have bad games where they are inconsistent. You don't think a FT disparity so high that it has only happened three times in 13 years is possible evidence that last night was one of those times?
I also said that they rarely have outcomes on games. And I think the FT disparity was obvious and the referees were largely correct.
I don't understand the whole "hey the FT disparity was high, therefore the refs were wrong." Maybe the FT disparity was high because, you know, Marquette committed more fouls.
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The mods need to put this atop this page as a warning for newbies venturing onto Scoop for the first time
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I look at all MU coaches the same. I want them to succeed.
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What if I told you that scoopers are not coaches or players and everything about Marquette basketball is outside of our control?
100%.
As are 99% of the subjects that scoopers (you and I included) offer our opinions, complaints, insights, bitches, etc., on. It’s what we do here.
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The mods need to put this atop this page as a warning for newbies venturing onto Scoop for the first time
Kind of like those parts of France where people still can't go because of unexploded shells from WWI.
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I also said that they rarely have outcomes on games. And I think the FT disparity was obvious and the referees were largely correct.
Refs always impact the outcome of game. It's rarely a large impact and there are dozens of factors that have more impact, but refs are humans. They miss calls, they make wrong calls. They usually come close to balancing out but they rarely come to perfectly balanced. Saying that human error by the refs could have resulted in a point swing in one direction or the other (which would have changed the outcome of this particular game) is really not that outlandish of a thing to say.
I don't understand the whole "hey the FT disparity was high, therefore the refs were wrong." Maybe the FT disparity was high because, you know, Marquette committed more fouls.
Its not that the FT disparity was high, it was historically high. Put it this way, which is more likely, that Marquette committed a historic number of fouls with Providence committing a historic low number of fouls in the same game? Or Marquette committed a large number of fouls, Providence committed, a low number of fouls, and the refs made some human errors (which happen every game) that happened to benefit Providence more than it benefitted Marquette. Occam's razor would say the latter.
If anyone is suggesting that the refs had it out for Marquette or were biased, that's dumb. But humans make mistakes and those mistakes usually don't balance out perfectly and sometimes they result in an extra point or two for one side.
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Yep, the refs sucked in that game. However, it was completely in MU’s grasp to win the game….twice.
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Refs always impact the outcome of game. It's rarely a large impact and there are dozens of factors that have more impact, but refs are humans. They miss calls, they make wrong calls. They usually come close to balancing out but they rarely come to perfectly balanced. Saying that human error by the refs could have resulted in a point swing in one direction or the other (which would have changed the outcome of this particular game) is really not that outlandish of a thing to say.
Its not that the FT disparity was high, it was historically high. Put it this way, which is more likely, that Marquette committed a historic number of fouls with Providence committing a historic low number of fouls in the same game? Or Marquette committed a large number of fouls, Providence committed, a low number of fouls, and the refs made some human errors (which happen every game) that happened to benefit Providence more than it benefitted Marquette. Occam's razor would say the latter.
If anyone is suggesting that the refs had it out for Marquette or were biased, that's dumb. But humans make mistakes and those mistakes usually don't balance out perfectly and sometimes they result in an extra point or two for one side.
Is the fact MU committed many fouls necessarily evidence of historically poor officiating, rather than poor play on MU's part?
I haven't gone back and re-watched the game to dissect every foul, but on first viewing I don't recall an unusually high number of bad calls against Marquette. There were some, just as there are some every game. But I think all the fouls moreso reflected the way Providence attacked and the flow of the game, than some unusually inept or unbalanced officiating.
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Yep, the refs sucked in that game. However, it was completely in MU’s grasp to win the game….twice.
Stop with the logical, reasonable, calm-minded take. This is Scoop, dammit!
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Is the fact MU committed many fouls necessarily evidence of historically poor officiating, rather than poor play on MU's part?
I haven't gone back and re-watched the game to dissect every foul, but on first viewing I don't recall an unusually high number of bad calls against Marquette. There were some, just as there are some every game. But I think all the fouls moreso reflected the way Providence attacked and the flow of the game, than some unusually inept or unbalanced officiating.
I did not have trouble with the fouls called on MU. My beef is there were times I thought MU was fouled and there was no call.
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Is the fact MU committed many fouls necessarily evidence of historically poor officiating, rather than poor play on MU's part?
I haven't gone back and re-watched the game to dissect every foul, but on first viewing I don't recall an unusually high number of bad calls against Marquette. There were some, just as there are some every game. But I think all the fouls moreso reflected the way Providence attacked and the flow of the game, than some unusually inept or unbalanced officiating.
Looking at free throw rates which helps to adjust for 2 OT's, Providence fouled MU (25.3%) at a rate at about the same as MU's average (29.3%) and what Creighton did where they were behind (23.3%). Seems consistent.
MU's Defensive FTR for the season is 30.2% compared to an NCAA D1 average of 31%. Versus Creighton, where MU led comfortably for three fourths of the game, it was 9.3%.
Providence's FTR was a whopping 75.4%. That's 350% higher than MU's average. That's over 75 FTs per 100 FGAs.
So what can we conclude and deduce about officiating in this game, where MU led for a good portion?
- MU suddenly fouled more than they have...by a lot despite playing half the game in a zone
- Providence fouled like other MU opponents
- This Big East crew called a tighter game than other crews, but only on Marquette
- This crew is more critical of a defensive style that extends pressure and disrupts with their hands than those who play defense by bumping bodies. In other words, Bully Ball.
To me, a good officiating crew is consistent. Versus other crews and between teams and their style of play. In almost all games, MU's style of play has been called consistently. All of a sudden it's not...yet Providence was called consistently to average.
And that's the rub. MU was fouling more and was called for it. Providence was fouling more, but wasn't. Bully Ball has been a point of emphasis supposedly, but this crew ignored it on one team. We hear it's "The Big East Way".
That said, MU choked the chicken in this one (another thread).
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Rider must still be pissed PC got to the line 43 times vs their 10...in regulation!
PC is great at drawing fouls, and really good at avoiding them. They've only lost the FTA battle in one game, a win against Columbia. They frequently come close to doubling up their opponents in FTA. It's not a MU thing, or a ref thing, it's a PC FTR thing, one in which they are elite.
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Rider must still be pissed PC got to the line 43 times vs their 10...in regulation!
Murderer
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Rider must still be pissed PC got to the line 43 times vs their 10...in regulation!
PC is great at drawing fouls, and really good at avoiding them. They've only lost the FTA battle in one game, a win against Columbia. They frequently come close to doubling up their opponents in FTA. It's not a MU thing, or a ref thing, it's a PC FTR thing, one in which they are elite.
So does Seton Hall, but Seton Hall does it out of necessity because they can't make a shot to save their lives.
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Rider must still be pissed PC got to the line 43 times vs their 10...in regulation!
PC is great at drawing fouls, and really good at avoiding them. They've only lost the FTA battle in one game, a win against Columbia. They frequently come close to doubling up their opponents in FTA. It's not a MU thing, or a ref thing, it's a PC FTR thing, one in which they are elite.
So you’re saying they were really good at their “normal”, and we responded chaotically?
IOW, we were the fly to PC’s spider 🕷. Apologies to Rocky n Morticia.
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Is the fact MU committed many fouls necessarily evidence of historically poor officiating, rather than poor play on MU's part?
I haven't gone back and re-watched the game to dissect every foul, but on first viewing I don't recall an unusually high number of bad calls against Marquette. There were some, just as there are some every game. But I think all the fouls moreso reflected the way Providence attacked and the flow of the game, than some unusually inept or unbalanced officiating.
I didn't say anything about historically poor officiating
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Rider must still be pissed PC got to the line 43 times vs their 10...in regulation!
PC is great at drawing fouls, and really good at avoiding them. They've only lost the FTA battle in one game, a win against Columbia. They frequently come close to doubling up their opponents in FTA. It's not a MU thing, or a ref thing, it's a PC FTR thing, one in which they are elite.
But Rider fouls everyone is their norm. # 346 in defensive free throw rate.
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But Rider fouls everyone is their norm. # 346 in defensive free throw rate.
Fair - but 43 attempts for PC, next highest is 32 attempts (x2), and then 29. Rutgers was one of the 32, and that was in a game with more possessions.
Anyhow, why am I talking about Rider? Oh right, because MU lost to PC. Wish there was another game before next Tue!
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The great historical ref MOPE thread
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David Joplin is third among Big East players in trey shooting (total season) at 46%. Such a problem.
Joplin was -12 that game despite having his third best individual offensive night of the year. For the season, Joplin has the 3rd lowest +/- on the team ahead of only Sean and Ben and who he plays significantly more minutes than. It would be nice if Joplin did something well other than shoot threes. He is a ball stopper. He has improved the least on the team relative to his expected improvement. He is the worst defender on the team.
I bring it this up for two reasons. 1. Joplin's scoring makes him appear better than he is. 2. A lot of fans believe he has the talent to be way more than that. Heck, I believe he has the talent to be more than that. Marquette needs Joplin to be more than he has been to reach the team's ceiling. Yet, as of today Joplin is closer to having Ross pass him for 6th man than he is to passing Stevie.
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Joplin was -12 that game despite having his third best individual offensive night of the year. For the season, Joplin has the 3rd lowest +/- on the team ahead of only Sean and Ben and who he plays significantly more minutes than. It would be nice if Joplin did something well other than shoot threes. He is a ball stopper. He has improved the least on the team relative to his expected improvement. He is the worst defender on the team.
I bring it this up for two reasons. 1. Joplin's scoring makes him appear better than he is. 2. A lot of fans believe he has the talent to be way more than that. Heck, I believe he has the talent to be more than that. Marquette needs Joplin to be more than he has been to reach the team's ceiling. Yet, as of today Joplin is closer to having Ross pass him for 6th man than he is to passing Stevie.
+/- stat is one of the least meaningful stats
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Joplin was -12 that game despite having his third best individual offensive night of the year. For the season, Joplin has the 3rd lowest +/- on the team ahead of only Sean and Ben and who he plays significantly more minutes than. It would be nice if Joplin did something well other than shoot threes. He is a ball stopper. He has improved the least on the team relative to his expected improvement. He is the worst defender on the team.
I bring it this up for two reasons. 1. Joplin's scoring makes him appear better than he is. 2. A lot of fans believe he has the talent to be way more than that. Heck, I believe he has the talent to be more than that. Marquette needs Joplin to be more than he has been to reach the team's ceiling. Yet, as of today Joplin is closer to having Ross pass him for 6th man than he is to passing Stevie.
Situationals. Jop is an elite shooter. He is a space eater. That was his role this season.
Shaka is trying to turn him into Wrightsil due to the injury, however. It's a struggle as a result. Not ideal. But, trust the process.
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+/- stat is one of the least meaningful stats
On an individual game basis, sure. On a season long real trend basis. No. Especially with things like RAPM, EvanMiya's BPR, and other advance plus minus related stats in relation to players roles. You can adjust for the opponents on the court, filter out garbage time. Look at how players play with our best player Oso on the court.
I hope Joplin starts defending better and does better offensively outside of shooting 3s.
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Shaka is trying to turn him into Wrightsil due to the injury, however. It's a struggle as a result. Not ideal. But, trust the process.
By asking him to rebound? That's not a lot to ask of a guy who is 6-7.
I think he has asked both Jop to take advantage of mismatches. If he takes guards to the post and scores with frequency, they'll eventually have to put a bigger guy on him which should work to his advantage.
Regardless, the defensive brain farts are a pretty hard ceiling on his trajectory. Providence's one field goal in 2OT, the guy stood behind Jop for a few seconds and he was just watching the ball. Got picked and they canned the three.
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By asking him to rebound? That's not a lot to ask of a guy who is 6-7.
I think he has asked both Jop to take advantage of mismatches. If he takes guards to the post and scores with frequency, they'll eventually have to put a bigger guy on him which should work to his advantage.
Regardless, the defensive brain farts are a pretty hard ceiling on his trajectory. Providence's one field goal in 2OT, the guy stood behind Jop for a few seconds and he was just watching the ball. Got picked and they canned the three.
With this we agree. David is an elite BE shooter. And he is 1-2 years away from being Lazar.
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On an individual game basis, sure. On a season long real trend basis. No. Especially with things like RAPM, EvanMiya's BPR, and other advance plus minus related stats in relation to players roles. You can adjust for the opponents on the court, filter out garbage time. Look at how players play with our best player Oso on the court.
I hope Joplin starts defending better and does better offensively outside of shooting 3s.
You pointed the stat for the individual game.
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You pointed the stat for the individual game.
Joplin was -12 that game despite having his third best individual offensive night of the year. For the season, Joplin has the 3rd lowest +/- on the team ahead of only Sean and Ben and who he plays significantly more minutes than.
sentence #2
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Raw p/m stats are garbage. It doesn’t tell the story of the player, more about the players around him.
BPM is a much more telling individual stat. Joplin is fourth on the team behind usual suspects, oso, kam and Tyler.
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Raw p/m stats are garbage. It doesn’t tell the story of the player, more about the players around him.
BPM is a much more telling individual stat. Joplin is fourth on the team behind usual suspects, oso, kam and Tyler.
Stats are for nerds. Preconceived notions of who is bad/good are more better.
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Stats are for nerds. Preconceived notions of who is bad/good are more better.
i.e., the "Bobby Hurley Method"
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Raw p/m stats are garbage. It doesn’t tell the story of the player, more about the players around him.
BPM is a much more telling individual stat. Joplin is fourth on the team behind usual suspects, oso, kam and Tyler.
BPM is too individually offensive focused. Defensive contributions are grossly and inaccurately portrayed in every box score. You can't get a picture of a players defensive ability in any way shape or form with DBPM. DBPM greatly over values steals, personally attributing opponent mistakes too individual players. Also OBPM increases with minutes played, usage, and greatly over values 3 point percentage (it counts it twice over essentially). Things Joplin does well.
IMO, Box plus minus is worse than adjusted P/M and team efficiencies. I don't think a single Marquette fan would chose too play Joplin over Omax consistently, but Joplin has a BPM rating 2.6 higher than OMax.
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sentence #2
Ok cool
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BPM is too individually offensive focused. Defensive contributions are grossly and inaccurately portrayed in every box score. You can't get a picture of a players defensive ability in any way shape or form with DBPM. DBPM greatly over values steals, personally attributing opponent mistakes too individual players. Also OBPM increases with minutes played, usage, and greatly over values 3 point percentage (it counts it twice over essentially). Things Joplin does well.
IMO, Box plus minus is worse than adjusted P/M and team efficiencies. I don't think a single Marquette fan would chose too play Joplin over Omax consistently, but Joplin has a BPM rating 2.6 higher than OMax.
Pm is useless in evaluating individual talent. I don’t love bpm but it’s much more comprehensive than raw pm. Neither are the holy grail but raw pm is much further down the list.
The only thing raw pm is good for is evaluating which units play well together vs other units.
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KenPom nerds are the worst...
Stats are for nerds. Preconceived notions of who is bad/good are more better.
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KenPom nerds are the worst...
What about the coaches who use his stats for scouting and scheduling?
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What about the coaches who use his stats for scouting and scheduling?
They should be fired
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And taught how to actually coach by Bobby Hurley.