49 free throw attempts

[jfp61]

Rider must still be pissed PC got to the line 43 times vs their 10...in regulation!

PC is great at drawing fouls, and really good at avoiding them.  They've only lost the FTA battle in one game, a win against Columbia.  They frequently come close to doubling up their opponents in FTA.  It's not a MU thing, or a ref thing, it's a PC FTR thing, one in which they are elite.

So does Seton Hall, but Seton Hall does it out of necessity because they can't make a shot to save their lives.

[GoFastAndWin]

Rider must still be pissed PC got to the line 43 times vs their 10...in regulation!

PC is great at drawing fouls, and really good at avoiding them.  They've only lost the FTA battle in one game, a win against Columbia.  They frequently come close to doubling up their opponents in FTA.  It's not a MU thing, or a ref thing, it's a PC FTR thing, one in which they are elite.

So you're saying they were really good at their "normal", and we responded chaotically?
IOW, we were the fly to PC's spider 🕷. Apologies to Rocky n Morticia. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Is the fact MU committed many fouls necessarily evidence of historically poor officiating, rather than poor play on MU's part?
I haven't gone back and re-watched the game to dissect every foul, but on first viewing I don't recall an unusually high number of bad calls against Marquette. There were some, just as there are some every game. But I think all the fouls moreso reflected the way Providence attacked and the flow of the game, than some unusually inept or unbalanced officiating.

I didn't say anything about historically poor officiating

[Dr. Blackheart]

Rider must still be pissed PC got to the line 43 times vs their 10...in regulation!

PC is great at drawing fouls, and really good at avoiding them.  They've only lost the FTA battle in one game, a win against Columbia.  They frequently come close to doubling up their opponents in FTA.  It's not a MU thing, or a ref thing, it's a PC FTR thing, one in which they are elite.

But Rider fouls everyone is their norm.  # 346 in defensive free throw rate.

[rocky_warrior]

But Rider fouls everyone is their norm.  # 346 in defensive free throw rate.

Fair - but 43 attempts for PC, next highest is 32 attempts (x2), and then 29.  Rutgers was one of the 32, and that was in a game with more possessions.   

Anyhow, why am I talking about Rider? Oh right, because MU lost to PC.  Wish there was another game before next Tue!

[Newsdreams]

The great historical ref MOPE thread

[jfp61]

David Joplin is third among Big East players in trey shooting (total season) at 46%. Such a problem.

Joplin was -12 that game despite having his third best individual offensive night of the year. For the season, Joplin has the 3rd lowest +/- on the team ahead of only Sean and Ben and who he plays significantly more minutes than. It would be nice if Joplin did something well other than shoot threes. He is a ball stopper. He has improved the least on the team relative to his expected improvement.  He is the worst defender on the team.

I bring it this up for two reasons. 1. Joplin's scoring makes him appear better than he is. 2. A lot of fans believe he has the talent to be way more than that. Heck, I believe he has the talent to be more than that.  Marquette needs Joplin to be more than he has been to reach the team's ceiling. Yet, as of today Joplin is closer to having Ross pass him for 6th man than he is to passing Stevie.

[Newsdreams]

Joplin was -12 that game despite having his third best individual offensive night of the year. For the season, Joplin has the 3rd lowest +/- on the team ahead of only Sean and Ben and who he plays significantly more minutes than. It would be nice if Joplin did something well other than shoot threes. He is a ball stopper. He has improved the least on the team relative to his expected improvement.  He is the worst defender on the team.

I bring it this up for two reasons. 1. Joplin's scoring makes him appear better than he is. 2. A lot of fans believe he has the talent to be way more than that. Heck, I believe he has the talent to be more than that.  Marquette needs Joplin to be more than he has been to reach the team's ceiling. Yet, as of today Joplin is closer to having Ross pass him for 6th man than he is to passing Stevie.

+/- stat is one of the least meaningful stats

[Dr. Blackheart]

Joplin was -12 that game despite having his third best individual offensive night of the year. For the season, Joplin has the 3rd lowest +/- on the team ahead of only Sean and Ben and who he plays significantly more minutes than. It would be nice if Joplin did something well other than shoot threes. He is a ball stopper. He has improved the least on the team relative to his expected improvement.  He is the worst defender on the team.

I bring it this up for two reasons. 1. Joplin's scoring makes him appear better than he is. 2. A lot of fans believe he has the talent to be way more than that. Heck, I believe he has the talent to be more than that.  Marquette needs Joplin to be more than he has been to reach the team's ceiling. Yet, as of today Joplin is closer to having Ross pass him for 6th man than he is to passing Stevie.

Situationals.  Jop is an elite shooter. He is a space eater. That was his role this season. 

Shaka is trying to turn him into Wrightsil due to the injury, however.  It's a struggle as a result.  Not ideal.  But, trust the process.

[jfp61]

+/- stat is one of the least meaningful stats

On an individual game basis, sure. On a season long real trend basis. No. Especially with things like RAPM, EvanMiya's BPR, and other advance plus minus related stats in relation to players roles. You can adjust for the opponents on the court, filter out garbage time. Look at how players play with our best player Oso on the court. 

I hope Joplin starts defending better and does better offensively outside of shooting 3s.

[MUfan12]

Shaka is trying to turn him into Wrightsil due to the injury, however.  It's a struggle as a result.  Not ideal.  But, trust the process.

By asking him to rebound? That's not a lot to ask of a guy who is 6-7.

I think he has asked both Jop to take advantage of mismatches. If he takes guards to the post and scores with frequency, they'll eventually have to put a bigger guy on him which should work to his advantage.

Regardless, the defensive brain farts are a pretty hard ceiling on his trajectory. Providence's one field goal in 2OT, the guy stood behind Jop for a few seconds and he was just watching the ball. Got picked and they canned the three.

[Dr. Blackheart]

By asking him to rebound? That's not a lot to ask of a guy who is 6-7.

I think he has asked both Jop to take advantage of mismatches. If he takes guards to the post and scores with frequency, they'll eventually have to put a bigger guy on him which should work to his advantage.

Regardless, the defensive brain farts are a pretty hard ceiling on his trajectory. Providence's one field goal in 2OT, the guy stood behind Jop for a few seconds and he was just watching the ball. Got picked and they canned the three.

With this we agree.  David is an elite BE shooter. And he is 1-2 years away from being Lazar.

[Newsdreams]

On an individual game basis, sure. On a season long real trend basis. No. Especially with things like RAPM, EvanMiya's BPR, and other advance plus minus related stats in relation to players roles. You can adjust for the opponents on the court, filter out garbage time. Look at how players play with our best player Oso on the court. 

I hope Joplin starts defending better and does better offensively outside of shooting 3s.

You pointed the stat for the individual game.

[jfp61]

You pointed the stat for the individual game.

Joplin was -12 that game despite having his third best individual offensive night of the year. For the season, Joplin has the 3rd lowest +/- on the team ahead of only Sean and Ben and who he plays significantly more minutes than.

sentence #2

[panda]

Raw p/m stats are garbage. It doesn't tell the story of the player, more about the players around him.

BPM is a much more telling individual stat. Joplin is fourth on the team behind usual suspects, oso, kam and Tyler.

[lawdog77]

Raw p/m stats are garbage. It doesn't tell the story of the player, more about the players around him.

BPM is a much more telling individual stat. Joplin is fourth on the team behind usual suspects, oso, kam and Tyler.

Stats are for nerds. Preconceived notions of who is bad/good are more better.

[The Sultan]

Stats are for nerds. Preconceived notions of who is bad/good are more better.

i.e., the "Bobby Hurley Method"

[jfp61]

Raw p/m stats are garbage. It doesn't tell the story of the player, more about the players around him.

BPM is a much more telling individual stat. Joplin is fourth on the team behind usual suspects, oso, kam and Tyler.

BPM is too individually offensive focused. Defensive contributions are grossly and inaccurately portrayed in every box score. You can't get a picture of a players defensive ability in any way shape or form with DBPM. DBPM greatly over values steals, personally attributing opponent mistakes too individual players. Also OBPM increases with minutes played, usage, and greatly over values 3 point percentage (it counts it twice over essentially). Things Joplin does well.

IMO, Box plus minus is worse than adjusted P/M and team efficiencies. I don't think a single Marquette fan would chose too play Joplin over Omax consistently, but Joplin has a BPM rating 2.6 higher than OMax.

[Newsdreams]

sentence #2

Ok cool

[panda]

BPM is too individually offensive focused. Defensive contributions are grossly and inaccurately portrayed in every box score. You can't get a picture of a players defensive ability in any way shape or form with DBPM. DBPM greatly over values steals, personally attributing opponent mistakes too individual players. Also OBPM increases with minutes played, usage, and greatly over values 3 point percentage (it counts it twice over essentially). Things Joplin does well.

IMO, Box plus minus is worse than adjusted P/M and team efficiencies. I don't think a single Marquette fan would chose too play Joplin over Omax consistently, but Joplin has a BPM rating 2.6 higher than OMax.

Pm is useless in evaluating individual talent. I don't love bpm but it's much more comprehensive than raw pm. Neither are the holy grail but raw pm is much further down the list.

The only thing raw pm is good for is evaluating which units play well together vs other units.

[PointWarrior]

KenPom nerds are the worst...

Stats are for nerds. Preconceived notions of who is bad/good are more better.

[Uncle Rico]

KenPom nerds are the worst...

What about the coaches who use his stats for scouting and scheduling?

[Newsdreams]

What about the coaches who use his stats for scouting and scheduling?

They should be fired

[The Sultan]

And taught how to actually coach by Bobby Hurley.