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Author Topic: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.  (Read 1886 times)

DoctorV

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OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« on: November 15, 2022, 10:16:26 PM »
I typically don’t like to start full threads on one game played, but I think this one showed us a glimpse of a few keys for the season as a whole.

1- First off, great game, very enjoyable until the meltdown at the end. MU led for a large portion of it and looked very much the part of a NCAA tourney team in a tough spot on the road, even though from what I saw I think Purdue will be a 7-10 seed squad at best this season (hope I’m wrong!)

2- Great shooting games by Kam and Jop. They won’t always shoot as well, but we’ve got a few scorers. Kam needs to figure out that there is such a thing as a horrendous shot, but no one else is scoring who cares I guess. It’s obvious that Marquettes coaches don’t value the midrange, because none of the guards know how to score there and Kam can really use it badly.

3- Now to my main takeaways of the game.
Game specific- I saw brew say something about Purdue getting away with one, and I sort of agree. I couldn’t help but think during latter part of the game that Marquette played really damn well and was the better team for most of the game, led for over 30 minutes, but might lose by a margin worse than the spread and it would look like a bad loss to the computers.

Im not here to argue computer data versus the eye test stuff, but my point is that it woulda been a damn shame for MU to lose by 10+ and have that look like a bad loss when in reality it wasn’t. That’s the downside of the computer driven era. Nice late 3s by Kam and Jop saved that.

The other downside of computers is that instead of being royally pissed about losing a game Marquette coulda won I was happy they managed to keep it close at the end, and that’s just not the spirit of competition.

4- OMax Prosper.
Good defense, but 4 points and 5 rebounds.
2-4 shooting….

Marquette lost this game because of OMax.
This team will not win games with Omax playing all those minutes and scoring 4 points, only attempting 4 shots.

The hype was clearly overblown, but this Marquette squad needs OMax to be a double digit scorer and to be aggressive.
The intangibles are there, but OMax is not with performances like that.

5- Tyler Kolek.
This will be controversial cause Tyler played his guts out and is clearly irreplaceable, but this Marquette team will not make the tournament without a more successful TyKo offensively.

When the BE gauntlet comes teams will mitigate his distribution.
He doesn’t shoot well from distance, he doesn’t have a midrange jumper or floater, he had a few nice drives today but it’s not nearly enough.

OMax and Tyler get a lions share of the minutes at their positions and are good at what they do, they are irreplaceable at this point.
If they don’t improve on the other parts of their game this team will suffer greatly because of it.

GoldenEagles03

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2022, 10:31:14 PM »
I typically don’t like to start full threads on one game played, but I think this one showed us a glimpse of a few keys for the season as a whole.

1- First off, great game, very enjoyable until the meltdown at the end. MU led for a large portion of it and looked very much the part of a NCAA tourney team in a tough spot on the road, even though from what I saw I think Purdue will be a 7-10 seed squad at best this season (hope I’m wrong!)

2- Great shooting games by Kam and Jop. They won’t always shoot as well, but we’ve got a few scorers. Kam needs to figure out that there is such a thing as a horrendous shot, but no one else is scoring who cares I guess. It’s obvious that Marquettes coaches don’t value the midrange, because none of the guards know how to score there and Kam can really use it badly.

3- Now to my main takeaways of the game.
Game specific- I saw brew say something about Purdue getting away with one, and I sort of agree. I couldn’t help but think during latter part of the game that Marquette played really damn well and was the better team for most of the game, led for over 30 minutes, but might lose by a margin worse than the spread and it would look like a bad loss to the computers.

Im not here to argue computer data versus the eye test stuff, but my point is that it woulda been a damn shame for MU to lose by 10+ and have that look like a bad loss when in reality it wasn’t. That’s the downside of the computer driven era. Nice late 3s by Kam and Jop saved that.

The other downside of computers is that instead of being royally pissed about losing a game Marquette coulda won I was happy they managed to keep it close at the end, and that’s just not the spirit of competition.

4- OMax Prosper.
Good defense, but 4 points and 5 rebounds.
2-4 shooting….

Marquette lost this game because of OMax.
This team will not win games with Omax playing all those minutes and scoring 4 points, only attempting 4 shots.

The hype was clearly overblown, but this Marquette squad needs OMax to be a double digit scorer and to be aggressive.
The intangibles are there, but OMax is not with performances like that.

5- Tyler Kolek.
This will be controversial cause Tyler played his guts out and is clearly irreplaceable, but this Marquette team will not make the tournament without a more successful TyKo offensively.

When the BE gauntlet comes teams will mitigate his distribution.
He doesn’t shoot well from distance, he doesn’t have a midrange jumper or floater, he had a few nice drives today but it’s not nearly enough.

OMax and Tyler get a lions share of the minutes at their positions and are good at what they do, they are irreplaceable at this point.
If they don’t improve on the other parts of their game this team will suffer greatly because of it.

I think Kolek was really good. He could've been really great and won the game had he hit a few more of those floaters. I think a lot of that had to do with Edey's presence. I'm ok with where he is at offensively.  Especially when he's responsible for almost 30 points a night that he isn't scoring.
VIOLENCE!

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2022, 10:34:36 PM »
Doctor V, maybe some of our ineptitude at the rim tonight was Edey's size but we have to be much more productive and effective scoring in the paint.  We cannot win games against quality teams only chucking threes.  We need strong drives to the rim and a more diversified attack. 

avid1010

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2022, 10:36:34 PM »
I typically don’t like to start full threads on one game played, but I think this one showed us a glimpse of a few keys for the season as a whole.

1- First off, great game, very enjoyable until the meltdown at the end. MU led for a large portion of it and looked very much the part of a NCAA tourney team in a tough spot on the road, even though from what I saw I think Purdue will be a 7-10 seed squad at best this season (hope I’m wrong!)

2- Great shooting games by Kam and Jop. They won’t always shoot as well, but we’ve got a few scorers. Kam needs to figure out that there is such a thing as a horrendous shot, but no one else is scoring who cares I guess. It’s obvious that Marquettes coaches don’t value the midrange, because none of the guards know how to score there and Kam can really use it badly.

3- Now to my main takeaways of the game.
Game specific- I saw brew say something about Purdue getting away with one, and I sort of agree. I couldn’t help but think during latter part of the game that Marquette played really damn well and was the better team for most of the game, led for over 30 minutes, but might lose by a margin worse than the spread and it would look like a bad loss to the computers.

Im not here to argue computer data versus the eye test stuff, but my point is that it woulda been a damn shame for MU to lose by 10+ and have that look like a bad loss when in reality it wasn’t. That’s the downside of the computer driven era. Nice late 3s by Kam and Jop saved that.

The other downside of computers is that instead of being royally pissed about losing a game Marquette coulda won I was happy they managed to keep it close at the end, and that’s just not the spirit of competition.

4- OMax Prosper.
Good defense, but 4 points and 5 rebounds.
2-4 shooting….

Marquette lost this game because of OMax.
This team will not win games with Omax playing all those minutes and scoring 4 points, only attempting 4 shots.

The hype was clearly overblown, but this Marquette squad needs OMax to be a double digit scorer and to be aggressive.
The intangibles are there, but OMax is not with performances like that.

5- Tyler Kolek.
This will be controversial cause Tyler played his guts out and is clearly irreplaceable, but this Marquette team will not make the tournament without a more successful TyKo offensively.

When the BE gauntlet comes teams will mitigate his distribution.
He doesn’t shoot well from distance, he doesn’t have a midrange jumper or floater, he had a few nice drives today but it’s not nearly enough.

OMax and Tyler get a lions share of the minutes at their positions and are good at what they do, they are irreplaceable at this point.
If they don’t improve on the other parts of their game this team will suffer greatly because of it.
Completely agree.  If those 2 can't hit from outside it's going to be rough.  TK going 4/14 was costly.  So far TK and Omax look like the same players they were last year.

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2022, 10:37:28 PM »
I think people are really understating how much a 7'4" All-American's mere presence does when attacking the rim. We will not face anyone like Edey again. This is not the game to criticize interior scoring. The three point shooting on the other hand...
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

MUfan12

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2022, 10:40:25 PM »
Tyler looks exactly the same except for his assists and rebounding rate being way up while cutting down on his turnovers.

He'll be the first to tell you he needs to make more shots, but without him they would be absolutely putrid.

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2022, 10:42:06 PM »
I think a wide-open 8-10 footer is not a shot that should never be taken.  Especially if you are taking contested shots outside the arc and at the rim.  Purdue hit two critical ones.  Mitchell in particular can get that shot and it's a comfortable look for him. 

MUfan12

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2022, 10:49:51 PM »
Nothing about Stevie's jumper looks comfortable.

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2022, 10:54:42 PM »
Nothing about Stevie's jumper looks comfortable.

The level of talent and size on Duke and Kansas vs us is just staggering.  Smh. 

MU82

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2022, 10:56:34 PM »
Kolek went 0-for-4 from 3. Otherwise he had a great game. I wish everybody who entered the game for Marquette tonight played as well as he did. And he left every ounce of energy he had on the court.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

jfp61

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2022, 10:57:25 PM »
Kolek went 0-for-4 from 3. Otherwise he had a great game. I wish everybody who entered the game for Marquette tonight played as well as he did. And he left every ounce of energy he had on the court.

2 of his misses were with 0 seconds left on the shot clock. so if he didn't put it up it was a turnover.

DoctorV

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2022, 10:58:00 PM »
I think Kolek was really good. He could've been really great and won the game had he hit a few more of those floaters. I think a lot of that had to do with Edey's presence. I'm ok with where he is at offensively.  Especially when he's responsible for almost 30 points a night that he isn't scoring.

He was really good, but he was also 4/14.

That’s the state of this years squad whether we like it or not.

Everyone is making a point of Edey, and that shouldn’t be under-estimated, but TyKo can drive and dime with the best of em but can’t drive and score against any of em.
Unfortunately this squad needs him to be able to drive and score, or shoot and score.
Everything looks “hard” for him when it comes to putting the ball in the basket, just as it looks “easy” for him getting other people buckets.

We saw what happened last year when teams in a really good conference figured out that he’s not gonna score… that won’t change unless he scores.

I don’t see anyone on this team that can drive and get theirs, unfortunately.
The only ones are probably Chase and S Jones if they progress and get more minutes deeper into the season.
The only other one is OMax, but we’ve already discussed him.

Part of me thinks that Shaka needs to try to push Stevie as a driver/shooter/scorer and see what happens.
He had it at a previous level but he’s timid. He gets enough minutes and does enough well to be on the court, so I think pressing him to drive and get to the line or score, as well as taking every open look, might be a good move.
Might be a reach but someone needs to drive and score when things get tough.

MU82

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2022, 10:59:39 PM »
2 of his misses were with 0 seconds left on the shot clock. so if he didn't put it up it was a turnover.

Yes, would have been team turnovers. So even his 0-for-4 wasn't as bad as it looked. The kid had an outstanding game. Probably lost 5 pounds, too. He worked effen hard.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2022, 11:03:47 PM »
He was really good, but he was also 4/14.

That’s the state of this years squad whether we like it or not.

Everyone is making a point of Edey, and that shouldn’t be under-estimated, but TyKo can drive and dime with the best of em but can’t drive and score against any of em.
Unfortunately this squad needs him to be able to drive and score, or shoot and score.
Everything looks “hard” for him when it comes to putting the ball in the basket, just as it looks “easy” for him getting other people buckets.

We saw what happened last year when teams in a really good conference figured out that he’s not gonna score… that won’t change unless he scores.

I don’t see anyone on this team that can drive and get theirs, unfortunately.
The only ones are probably Chase and S Jones if they progress and get more minutes deeper into the season.
The only other one is OMax, but we’ve already discussed him.

Part of me thinks that Shaka needs to try to push Stevie as a driver/shooter/scorer and see what happens.
He had it at a previous level but he’s timid. He gets enough minutes and does enough well to be on the court, so I think pressing him to drive and get to the line or score, as well as taking every open look, might be a good move.
Might be a reach but someone needs to drive and score when things get tough.

I think the bigger problem is Kolek is our ONLY creator.  That puts a lot of additional pressure on him, so a bunch of his missed shots he had to force late in the shot clock. 

mu.n8ball

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2022, 11:04:28 PM »
Kolek would have had more assists too if we didn't go cold from the floor. Commendable performance. He's this team's quarterback that's lacking a couple weapons. Hopefully some consistent ones can emerge.

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2022, 11:06:15 PM »
I think the bigger problem is Kolek is our ONLY creator.  That puts a lot of additional pressure on him, so a bunch of his missed shots he had to force late in the shot clock.

Oso would like a word with you
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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DoctorV

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2022, 11:06:33 PM »
Yes, would have been team turnovers. So even his 0-for-4 wasn't as bad as it looked. The kid had an outstanding game. Probably lost 5 pounds, too. He worked effen hard.

Sure, but he took 14 shots and looked like he wanted to take 2 of them.

Kam scored 19 on the same amount of shots and Jop scored 21 on 11 shots.

Obviously Kam and Jop don’t create for others and battle like TyKo does, but it might be time to hang up the “Tyler is the best shooter in the gym” narrative if he can’t get a little more.

I don’t want him to stop shooting, I just want him to stop looking like he doesn’t want to shoot.
Teams unfortunately have the book on him and it won’t be pretty if he doesn’t figure it out

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2022, 11:07:59 PM »
Tyler looks exactly the same except for his assists and rebounding rate being way up while cutting down on his turnovers.

He'll be the first to tell you he needs to make more shots, but without him they would be absolutely putrid.

He looks exactly the same except he's a better version of the same player last season. I also wouldn't count out his shooting yet. He was 2/5 coming into today's game. He went 0/4 but two of those were end of the shot clock heaves that he had no choice on.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2022, 11:11:22 PM »
Oso would like a word with you

Oso once he gets the ball has shown flashes but he doesn't create for others off the dribble.  Our other three perimeter players on the floor with Kolek have to do more once they go downhill. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 11:22:56 PM by MuggsyB »

MU82

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2022, 11:21:32 PM »
Sure, but he took 14 shots and looked like he wanted to take 2 of them.

Kam scored 19 on the same amount of shots and Jop scored 21 on 11 shots.

Obviously Kam and Jop don’t create for others and battle like TyKo does, but it might be time to hang up the “Tyler is the best shooter in the gym” narrative if he can’t get a little more.

I don’t want him to stop shooting, I just want him to stop looking like he doesn’t want to shoot.
Teams unfortunately have the book on him and it won’t be pretty if he doesn’t figure it out

I can't speak for others (including Shaka), but I have absolutely no shooting "narrative" for Kolek. I've said many, many times that he has shown very little as a perimeter threat at Marquette, and that I'll believe he's turned some kind of corner when we see a strong stretch of solid shooting. And I'm not one who has compared Kolek to Nash and Diener; I said we needed better PG play than we got last season -- and we've gotten it so far.

Besides, I'm talking about tonight. He had a hell of an all-around game. As Wiz and jfp noted, he had to take some tough shots at the end of the shot clock. I only wish every MU player had been as good as he was.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

DoctorV

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2022, 11:34:17 PM »
I can't speak for others (including Shaka), but I have absolutely no shooting "narrative" for Kolek. I've said many, many times that he has shown very little as a perimeter threat at Marquette, and that I'll believe he's turned some kind of corner when we see a strong stretch of solid shooting. And I'm not one who has compared Kolek to Nash and Diener; I said we needed better PG play than we got last season -- and we've gotten it so far.

Besides, I'm talking about tonight. He had a hell of an all-around game. As Wiz and jfp noted, he had to take some tough shots at the end of the shot clock. I only wish every MU player had been as good as he was.

I see it, I get you. I don’t completely agree but that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t one of the best guys on the team and that “I wished every player was as good as he was.”

I don’t agree on the hell of an all around game part.
He played almost all facets very well and gave it all he had, but he did not score the basketball the way he should have.

Maybe that’s me being too harsh, but my main point of the entire thread is that if OMax and Tyler don’t add more offensively this team this season will struggle.
I don’t think anyone can argue that.

My second main point is that as the competition stiffens and the teams that actually know TyKo start to face MU that distribution ability will diminish, the turnovers will increase and if the scoring doesn’t keep them honest the season will be a challenge.
You’ve said so much in the past, so I know you agree.
Does that mean someone on MU can play the point better? Nope. Does that mean that Marquette still needs more out of the point? Yep.

MU82

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2022, 11:45:07 PM »
Maybe that’s me being too harsh

No maybe. You are.

Kolek was a warrior tonight.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2022, 11:54:49 PM »
MU was 16-37 from two tonight while Purdue was 18-28. 

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2022, 12:02:15 AM »
Oso once he gets the ball has shown flashes but he doesn't create for others off the dribble.  Our other three perimeter players on the floor with Kolek have to do more once they go downhill.

Oso would still like a word with you.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2022, 12:06:02 AM »
Oso would still like a word with you.

Oso isn't the problem.  We need our perimeter guys to do more off the dribble other than Kolek. 

 

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