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Author Topic: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.  (Read 1883 times)

DoctorV

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OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« on: November 15, 2022, 10:16:26 PM »
I typically don’t like to start full threads on one game played, but I think this one showed us a glimpse of a few keys for the season as a whole.

1- First off, great game, very enjoyable until the meltdown at the end. MU led for a large portion of it and looked very much the part of a NCAA tourney team in a tough spot on the road, even though from what I saw I think Purdue will be a 7-10 seed squad at best this season (hope I’m wrong!)

2- Great shooting games by Kam and Jop. They won’t always shoot as well, but we’ve got a few scorers. Kam needs to figure out that there is such a thing as a horrendous shot, but no one else is scoring who cares I guess. It’s obvious that Marquettes coaches don’t value the midrange, because none of the guards know how to score there and Kam can really use it badly.

3- Now to my main takeaways of the game.
Game specific- I saw brew say something about Purdue getting away with one, and I sort of agree. I couldn’t help but think during latter part of the game that Marquette played really damn well and was the better team for most of the game, led for over 30 minutes, but might lose by a margin worse than the spread and it would look like a bad loss to the computers.

Im not here to argue computer data versus the eye test stuff, but my point is that it woulda been a damn shame for MU to lose by 10+ and have that look like a bad loss when in reality it wasn’t. That’s the downside of the computer driven era. Nice late 3s by Kam and Jop saved that.

The other downside of computers is that instead of being royally pissed about losing a game Marquette coulda won I was happy they managed to keep it close at the end, and that’s just not the spirit of competition.

4- OMax Prosper.
Good defense, but 4 points and 5 rebounds.
2-4 shooting….

Marquette lost this game because of OMax.
This team will not win games with Omax playing all those minutes and scoring 4 points, only attempting 4 shots.

The hype was clearly overblown, but this Marquette squad needs OMax to be a double digit scorer and to be aggressive.
The intangibles are there, but OMax is not with performances like that.

5- Tyler Kolek.
This will be controversial cause Tyler played his guts out and is clearly irreplaceable, but this Marquette team will not make the tournament without a more successful TyKo offensively.

When the BE gauntlet comes teams will mitigate his distribution.
He doesn’t shoot well from distance, he doesn’t have a midrange jumper or floater, he had a few nice drives today but it’s not nearly enough.

OMax and Tyler get a lions share of the minutes at their positions and are good at what they do, they are irreplaceable at this point.
If they don’t improve on the other parts of their game this team will suffer greatly because of it.

GoldenEagles03

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2022, 10:31:14 PM »
I typically don’t like to start full threads on one game played, but I think this one showed us a glimpse of a few keys for the season as a whole.

1- First off, great game, very enjoyable until the meltdown at the end. MU led for a large portion of it and looked very much the part of a NCAA tourney team in a tough spot on the road, even though from what I saw I think Purdue will be a 7-10 seed squad at best this season (hope I’m wrong!)

2- Great shooting games by Kam and Jop. They won’t always shoot as well, but we’ve got a few scorers. Kam needs to figure out that there is such a thing as a horrendous shot, but no one else is scoring who cares I guess. It’s obvious that Marquettes coaches don’t value the midrange, because none of the guards know how to score there and Kam can really use it badly.

3- Now to my main takeaways of the game.
Game specific- I saw brew say something about Purdue getting away with one, and I sort of agree. I couldn’t help but think during latter part of the game that Marquette played really damn well and was the better team for most of the game, led for over 30 minutes, but might lose by a margin worse than the spread and it would look like a bad loss to the computers.

Im not here to argue computer data versus the eye test stuff, but my point is that it woulda been a damn shame for MU to lose by 10+ and have that look like a bad loss when in reality it wasn’t. That’s the downside of the computer driven era. Nice late 3s by Kam and Jop saved that.

The other downside of computers is that instead of being royally pissed about losing a game Marquette coulda won I was happy they managed to keep it close at the end, and that’s just not the spirit of competition.

4- OMax Prosper.
Good defense, but 4 points and 5 rebounds.
2-4 shooting….

Marquette lost this game because of OMax.
This team will not win games with Omax playing all those minutes and scoring 4 points, only attempting 4 shots.

The hype was clearly overblown, but this Marquette squad needs OMax to be a double digit scorer and to be aggressive.
The intangibles are there, but OMax is not with performances like that.

5- Tyler Kolek.
This will be controversial cause Tyler played his guts out and is clearly irreplaceable, but this Marquette team will not make the tournament without a more successful TyKo offensively.

When the BE gauntlet comes teams will mitigate his distribution.
He doesn’t shoot well from distance, he doesn’t have a midrange jumper or floater, he had a few nice drives today but it’s not nearly enough.

OMax and Tyler get a lions share of the minutes at their positions and are good at what they do, they are irreplaceable at this point.
If they don’t improve on the other parts of their game this team will suffer greatly because of it.

I think Kolek was really good. He could've been really great and won the game had he hit a few more of those floaters. I think a lot of that had to do with Edey's presence. I'm ok with where he is at offensively.  Especially when he's responsible for almost 30 points a night that he isn't scoring.
VIOLENCE!

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2022, 10:34:36 PM »
Doctor V, maybe some of our ineptitude at the rim tonight was Edey's size but we have to be much more productive and effective scoring in the paint.  We cannot win games against quality teams only chucking threes.  We need strong drives to the rim and a more diversified attack. 

avid1010

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2022, 10:36:34 PM »
I typically don’t like to start full threads on one game played, but I think this one showed us a glimpse of a few keys for the season as a whole.

1- First off, great game, very enjoyable until the meltdown at the end. MU led for a large portion of it and looked very much the part of a NCAA tourney team in a tough spot on the road, even though from what I saw I think Purdue will be a 7-10 seed squad at best this season (hope I’m wrong!)

2- Great shooting games by Kam and Jop. They won’t always shoot as well, but we’ve got a few scorers. Kam needs to figure out that there is such a thing as a horrendous shot, but no one else is scoring who cares I guess. It’s obvious that Marquettes coaches don’t value the midrange, because none of the guards know how to score there and Kam can really use it badly.

3- Now to my main takeaways of the game.
Game specific- I saw brew say something about Purdue getting away with one, and I sort of agree. I couldn’t help but think during latter part of the game that Marquette played really damn well and was the better team for most of the game, led for over 30 minutes, but might lose by a margin worse than the spread and it would look like a bad loss to the computers.

Im not here to argue computer data versus the eye test stuff, but my point is that it woulda been a damn shame for MU to lose by 10+ and have that look like a bad loss when in reality it wasn’t. That’s the downside of the computer driven era. Nice late 3s by Kam and Jop saved that.

The other downside of computers is that instead of being royally pissed about losing a game Marquette coulda won I was happy they managed to keep it close at the end, and that’s just not the spirit of competition.

4- OMax Prosper.
Good defense, but 4 points and 5 rebounds.
2-4 shooting….

Marquette lost this game because of OMax.
This team will not win games with Omax playing all those minutes and scoring 4 points, only attempting 4 shots.

The hype was clearly overblown, but this Marquette squad needs OMax to be a double digit scorer and to be aggressive.
The intangibles are there, but OMax is not with performances like that.

5- Tyler Kolek.
This will be controversial cause Tyler played his guts out and is clearly irreplaceable, but this Marquette team will not make the tournament without a more successful TyKo offensively.

When the BE gauntlet comes teams will mitigate his distribution.
He doesn’t shoot well from distance, he doesn’t have a midrange jumper or floater, he had a few nice drives today but it’s not nearly enough.

OMax and Tyler get a lions share of the minutes at their positions and are good at what they do, they are irreplaceable at this point.
If they don’t improve on the other parts of their game this team will suffer greatly because of it.
Completely agree.  If those 2 can't hit from outside it's going to be rough.  TK going 4/14 was costly.  So far TK and Omax look like the same players they were last year.

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2022, 10:37:28 PM »
I think people are really understating how much a 7'4" All-American's mere presence does when attacking the rim. We will not face anyone like Edey again. This is not the game to criticize interior scoring. The three point shooting on the other hand...
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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MUfan12

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2022, 10:40:25 PM »
Tyler looks exactly the same except for his assists and rebounding rate being way up while cutting down on his turnovers.

He'll be the first to tell you he needs to make more shots, but without him they would be absolutely putrid.

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2022, 10:42:06 PM »
I think a wide-open 8-10 footer is not a shot that should never be taken.  Especially if you are taking contested shots outside the arc and at the rim.  Purdue hit two critical ones.  Mitchell in particular can get that shot and it's a comfortable look for him. 

MUfan12

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2022, 10:49:51 PM »
Nothing about Stevie's jumper looks comfortable.

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2022, 10:54:42 PM »
Nothing about Stevie's jumper looks comfortable.

The level of talent and size on Duke and Kansas vs us is just staggering.  Smh. 

MU82

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2022, 10:56:34 PM »
Kolek went 0-for-4 from 3. Otherwise he had a great game. I wish everybody who entered the game for Marquette tonight played as well as he did. And he left every ounce of energy he had on the court.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

jfp61

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2022, 10:57:25 PM »
Kolek went 0-for-4 from 3. Otherwise he had a great game. I wish everybody who entered the game for Marquette tonight played as well as he did. And he left every ounce of energy he had on the court.

2 of his misses were with 0 seconds left on the shot clock. so if he didn't put it up it was a turnover.

DoctorV

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2022, 10:58:00 PM »
I think Kolek was really good. He could've been really great and won the game had he hit a few more of those floaters. I think a lot of that had to do with Edey's presence. I'm ok with where he is at offensively.  Especially when he's responsible for almost 30 points a night that he isn't scoring.

He was really good, but he was also 4/14.

That’s the state of this years squad whether we like it or not.

Everyone is making a point of Edey, and that shouldn’t be under-estimated, but TyKo can drive and dime with the best of em but can’t drive and score against any of em.
Unfortunately this squad needs him to be able to drive and score, or shoot and score.
Everything looks “hard” for him when it comes to putting the ball in the basket, just as it looks “easy” for him getting other people buckets.

We saw what happened last year when teams in a really good conference figured out that he’s not gonna score… that won’t change unless he scores.

I don’t see anyone on this team that can drive and get theirs, unfortunately.
The only ones are probably Chase and S Jones if they progress and get more minutes deeper into the season.
The only other one is OMax, but we’ve already discussed him.

Part of me thinks that Shaka needs to try to push Stevie as a driver/shooter/scorer and see what happens.
He had it at a previous level but he’s timid. He gets enough minutes and does enough well to be on the court, so I think pressing him to drive and get to the line or score, as well as taking every open look, might be a good move.
Might be a reach but someone needs to drive and score when things get tough.

MU82

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2022, 10:59:39 PM »
2 of his misses were with 0 seconds left on the shot clock. so if he didn't put it up it was a turnover.

Yes, would have been team turnovers. So even his 0-for-4 wasn't as bad as it looked. The kid had an outstanding game. Probably lost 5 pounds, too. He worked effen hard.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2022, 11:03:47 PM »
He was really good, but he was also 4/14.

That’s the state of this years squad whether we like it or not.

Everyone is making a point of Edey, and that shouldn’t be under-estimated, but TyKo can drive and dime with the best of em but can’t drive and score against any of em.
Unfortunately this squad needs him to be able to drive and score, or shoot and score.
Everything looks “hard” for him when it comes to putting the ball in the basket, just as it looks “easy” for him getting other people buckets.

We saw what happened last year when teams in a really good conference figured out that he’s not gonna score… that won’t change unless he scores.

I don’t see anyone on this team that can drive and get theirs, unfortunately.
The only ones are probably Chase and S Jones if they progress and get more minutes deeper into the season.
The only other one is OMax, but we’ve already discussed him.

Part of me thinks that Shaka needs to try to push Stevie as a driver/shooter/scorer and see what happens.
He had it at a previous level but he’s timid. He gets enough minutes and does enough well to be on the court, so I think pressing him to drive and get to the line or score, as well as taking every open look, might be a good move.
Might be a reach but someone needs to drive and score when things get tough.

I think the bigger problem is Kolek is our ONLY creator.  That puts a lot of additional pressure on him, so a bunch of his missed shots he had to force late in the shot clock. 

mu.n8ball

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2022, 11:04:28 PM »
Kolek would have had more assists too if we didn't go cold from the floor. Commendable performance. He's this team's quarterback that's lacking a couple weapons. Hopefully some consistent ones can emerge.

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2022, 11:06:15 PM »
I think the bigger problem is Kolek is our ONLY creator.  That puts a lot of additional pressure on him, so a bunch of his missed shots he had to force late in the shot clock.

Oso would like a word with you
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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DoctorV

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2022, 11:06:33 PM »
Yes, would have been team turnovers. So even his 0-for-4 wasn't as bad as it looked. The kid had an outstanding game. Probably lost 5 pounds, too. He worked effen hard.

Sure, but he took 14 shots and looked like he wanted to take 2 of them.

Kam scored 19 on the same amount of shots and Jop scored 21 on 11 shots.

Obviously Kam and Jop don’t create for others and battle like TyKo does, but it might be time to hang up the “Tyler is the best shooter in the gym” narrative if he can’t get a little more.

I don’t want him to stop shooting, I just want him to stop looking like he doesn’t want to shoot.
Teams unfortunately have the book on him and it won’t be pretty if he doesn’t figure it out

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2022, 11:07:59 PM »
Tyler looks exactly the same except for his assists and rebounding rate being way up while cutting down on his turnovers.

He'll be the first to tell you he needs to make more shots, but without him they would be absolutely putrid.

He looks exactly the same except he's a better version of the same player last season. I also wouldn't count out his shooting yet. He was 2/5 coming into today's game. He went 0/4 but two of those were end of the shot clock heaves that he had no choice on.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2022, 11:11:22 PM »
Oso would like a word with you

Oso once he gets the ball has shown flashes but he doesn't create for others off the dribble.  Our other three perimeter players on the floor with Kolek have to do more once they go downhill. 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 11:22:56 PM by MuggsyB »

MU82

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2022, 11:21:32 PM »
Sure, but he took 14 shots and looked like he wanted to take 2 of them.

Kam scored 19 on the same amount of shots and Jop scored 21 on 11 shots.

Obviously Kam and Jop don’t create for others and battle like TyKo does, but it might be time to hang up the “Tyler is the best shooter in the gym” narrative if he can’t get a little more.

I don’t want him to stop shooting, I just want him to stop looking like he doesn’t want to shoot.
Teams unfortunately have the book on him and it won’t be pretty if he doesn’t figure it out

I can't speak for others (including Shaka), but I have absolutely no shooting "narrative" for Kolek. I've said many, many times that he has shown very little as a perimeter threat at Marquette, and that I'll believe he's turned some kind of corner when we see a strong stretch of solid shooting. And I'm not one who has compared Kolek to Nash and Diener; I said we needed better PG play than we got last season -- and we've gotten it so far.

Besides, I'm talking about tonight. He had a hell of an all-around game. As Wiz and jfp noted, he had to take some tough shots at the end of the shot clock. I only wish every MU player had been as good as he was.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

DoctorV

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2022, 11:34:17 PM »
I can't speak for others (including Shaka), but I have absolutely no shooting "narrative" for Kolek. I've said many, many times that he has shown very little as a perimeter threat at Marquette, and that I'll believe he's turned some kind of corner when we see a strong stretch of solid shooting. And I'm not one who has compared Kolek to Nash and Diener; I said we needed better PG play than we got last season -- and we've gotten it so far.

Besides, I'm talking about tonight. He had a hell of an all-around game. As Wiz and jfp noted, he had to take some tough shots at the end of the shot clock. I only wish every MU player had been as good as he was.

I see it, I get you. I don’t completely agree but that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t one of the best guys on the team and that “I wished every player was as good as he was.”

I don’t agree on the hell of an all around game part.
He played almost all facets very well and gave it all he had, but he did not score the basketball the way he should have.

Maybe that’s me being too harsh, but my main point of the entire thread is that if OMax and Tyler don’t add more offensively this team this season will struggle.
I don’t think anyone can argue that.

My second main point is that as the competition stiffens and the teams that actually know TyKo start to face MU that distribution ability will diminish, the turnovers will increase and if the scoring doesn’t keep them honest the season will be a challenge.
You’ve said so much in the past, so I know you agree.
Does that mean someone on MU can play the point better? Nope. Does that mean that Marquette still needs more out of the point? Yep.

MU82

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2022, 11:45:07 PM »
Maybe that’s me being too harsh

No maybe. You are.

Kolek was a warrior tonight.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

MuggsyB

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2022, 11:54:49 PM »
MU was 16-37 from two tonight while Purdue was 18-28. 

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2022, 12:02:15 AM »
Oso once he gets the ball has shown flashes but he doesn't create for others off the dribble.  Our other three perimeter players on the floor with Kolek have to do more once they go downhill.

Oso would still like a word with you.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2022, 12:06:02 AM »
Oso would still like a word with you.

Oso isn't the problem.  We need our perimeter guys to do more off the dribble other than Kolek. 

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2022, 05:35:43 AM »
Kolek is probably the MVP of this team so far. Certainly on offense. His shots may not be falling, but he creates everything. Dude's averaging over 10 assists per game. And he's leading the team in rebounding.

Would it be better if he was shooting 44% from two & 33% from three? Yeah. And that's the difference of one more made two and one more made three. Right now he's a really good point guard. If he marginally improves his shooting, he's all-conference.
When asked how he felt about Marquette being picked to finish ninth in the Big East, Tyler Kolek only had two words:
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"F**k 'em."

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2022, 06:41:46 AM »
Oso isn't the problem.  We need our perimeter guys to do more off the dribble other than Kolek.

That's fine,  then say that,  not "Oso doesn't create for others".
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

avid1010

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2022, 06:42:14 AM »
Kolek is probably the MVP of this team so far. Certainly on offense. His shots may not be falling, but he creates everything. Dude's averaging over 10 assists per game. And he's leading the team in rebounding.

Would it be better if he was shooting 44% from two & 33% from three? Yeah. And that's the difference of one more made two and one more made three. Right now he's a really good point guard. If he marginally improves his shooting, he's all-conference.
He led the BEAST in assists last year...I didn't expect that to disappear on a team that was going to have more balanced scoring.  Was hoping he could develop a shot...I'm sure he worked his a$$ off...hope it transfers over soon.

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2022, 06:49:15 AM »
He led the BEAST in assists last year...I didn't expect that to disappear on a team that was going to have more balanced scoring.  Was hoping he could develop a shot...I'm sure he worked his a$$ off...hope it transfers over soon.

Kolek was 2/5 heading into this game. First bad shooting night and yall are acting like we're halfway through the season
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2022, 06:55:47 AM »
I think Kam needs to either be reigned in or shown what a good shot looks like.
He seems to have the Markus green light.
I think this offense can do better than 27’+ shots.

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2022, 07:00:58 AM »
Shaka said the same thing in his presser.
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2022, 07:12:19 AM »
As TAMU said, they won’t play a player like Edey the rest of the season. Mason Gillis started on their S16 team last year and had zero points, zero rebounds and 2 assists last night. Defensively, they had multiple wings to throw at OMax (Gillis, Newman, Morton). All to feed into a monster in the middle.

OMax was fine. TK was great, only thing I was a disappointed in, was the 2 on 1 with Ross when they had Purdue on the ropes.

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2022, 08:24:33 AM »
This team needs it, and it’s pretty to watch… but assists get you style points, but no extra real points

#11 in assist rate… #101 in offensive efficiency

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2022, 08:53:53 AM »
Kolek was 2/5 heading into this game. First bad shooting night and yall are acting like we're halfway through the season

We've seen the guy for a season and 3 games.  I think it's fair to say that, at this level, Kolek is not a good shooter.  Not even just not a good shooter, but a really bad shooter.  Maybe he'll prove that wrong.  But so far...

Kolek is probably the MVP of this team so far. Certainly on offense. His shots may not be falling, but he creates everything. Dude's averaging over 10 assists per game. And he's leading the team in rebounding.

Would it be better if he was shooting 44% from two & 33% from three? Yeah. And that's the difference of one more made two and one more made three. Right now he's a really good point guard. If he marginally improves his shooting, he's all-conference.

And if he made "one more made two and one more made three" a night, those would still be bad shooting numbers.  And let's not act like it's "just."  That's adding five points per game to the team!  That's a huge difference.  For example, last year Georgia and Hartford were dead center in the country at 69.8 points per game.  If they "just" made one more three and one more two per game (as a team, not even one specific individual player) they jump up from 179th in points per game to 53rd in points per game as a team.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 08:57:15 AM by wadesworld »
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2022, 08:58:35 AM »
Points per game no matta

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2022, 09:14:37 AM »
Points per game no matta

They do when you're talking about a player adding one made three and one made two per game.  1 extra made 3 per game = three points per game.  1 extra made 2 per game = 2 points per game.  2+3=5.  #math.
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2022, 09:18:45 AM »
As conditioned etc that our guys are, clearly they were gassed towards the end and Purdue was not.   Tired legs, short shots, etc.   Battling Edey wears in you.  And Purdue seemed pretty fresh at the end.   When Edey returned, it was over. 

But overall a great effort.   Can’t go 5+ minutes without scoring in any game and expect to win.   

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2022, 09:21:04 AM »
We've seen the guy for a season and 3 games.  I think it's fair to say that, at this level, Kolek is not a good shooter.  Not even just not a good shooter, but a really bad shooter.  Maybe he'll prove that wrong.  But so far...

And if the conversation we were having was about Kolek's entire tenure at MU, I'd agree with you. But the post I was responding to was a comment specifically about improvement from last season, meaning we're only 3 games into the sample size.
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2022, 09:22:41 AM »
And if he made "one more made two and one more made three" a night, those would still be bad shooting numbers.

I didn't say per night. I said one of each. Period. 6/16 to 7/16 and 2/9 to 3/9. It wouldn't be great, but it would be fine. His value is in terms of looks created for others and his overall value more than offsets the shooting.
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2022, 09:23:19 AM »
As conditioned etc that our guys are, clearly they were gassed towards the end and Purdue was not.   Tired legs, short shots, etc.   Battling Edey wears in you.  And Purdue seemed pretty fresh at the end.   When Edey returned, it was over. 

But overall a great effort.   Can’t go 5+ minutes without scoring in any game and expect to win.

Painter wisely played 10 guys double digit minutes. We played 6 guys 21+ minutes, 1 guy 10 minutes, and 3 guys 5 minutes or less. Painter was banking on them being fresher at the end of the game.
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2022, 09:23:40 AM »
We've seen the guy for a season and 3 games.  I think it's fair to say that, at this level, Kolek is not a good shooter.  Not even just not a good shooter, but a really bad shooter.  Maybe he'll prove that wrong.  But so far...

And if he made "one more made two and one more made three" a night, those would still be bad shooting numbers.  And let's not act like it's "just."  That's adding five points per game to the team!  That's a huge difference.  For example, last year Georgia and Hartford were dead center in the country at 69.8 points per game.  If they "just" made one more three and one more two per game (as a team, not even one specific individual player) they jump up from 179th in points per game to 53rd in points per game as a team.

#solidmope

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2022, 09:25:29 AM »
This team needs it, and it’s pretty to watch… but assists get you style points, but no extra real points

#11 in assist rate… #101 in offensive efficiency

Except if Tyler isn't creating those looks, no one else is. He's giving guys a ton of wide open opportunities that lead to points that they wouldn't be getting on their own. I'd love to have five guys that can create their own shot at will and never need assists, but we don't have that. So we need Tyler and his assists.
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2022, 09:29:48 AM »
Except if Tyler isn't creating those looks, no one else is. He's giving guys a ton of wide open opportunities that lead to points that they wouldn't be getting on their own. I'd love to have five guys that can create their own shot at will and never need assists, but we don't have that. So we need Tyler and his assists.

Guys who might be able to create their own shot on this team.... Sean Jones maybe and David Joplin maybe..

Without Kolek this is a horrible offense.


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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2022, 09:32:08 AM »
Except if Tyler isn't creating those looks, no one else is. He's giving guys a ton of wide open opportunities that lead to points that they wouldn't be getting on their own. I'd love to have five guys that can create their own shot at will and never need assists, but we don't have that. So we need Tyler and his assists.

Yes, that’s why my post started off with, “this team needs it.”

My point is that a lot of assists are not needed to have an effective offense.

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2022, 09:39:09 AM »
And if the conversation we were having was about Kolek's entire tenure at MU, I'd agree with you. But the post I was responding to was a comment specifically about improvement from last season, meaning we're only 3 games into the sample size.

Okay.  Well, we've only got a sample size of 3 games to go off of then.  So far, it seems his shooting hasn't improved.
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2022, 09:43:36 AM »
Yes, that’s why my post started off with, “this team needs it.”

My point is that a lot of assists are not needed to have an effective offense.

That's fair. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't lost that our offense would suck without him.
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2022, 10:14:56 AM »
Okay.  Well, we've only got a sample size of 3 games to go off of then.  So far, it seems his shooting hasn't improved.

That's fine, I think it's silly to draw any conclusions from three games. Especially when the first two games were fine (improved even).

Last night, Kolek was 0/2 on threes that he had a choice to shoot. He was also 0/2 on threes that he had to shoot because he was given the ball with less than 3 seconds on the shot clock.
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2022, 10:30:57 AM »
The way Shaka has built this roster, TK and Oso are irreplaceable. We do not have anybody else who can do what either can.

If they play well -- as each has in each game -- it then will come down to are others performing their roles well: making open 3s, hitting the boards, playing D, etc.

Jury still out on Kolek's shot. In every other facet, he has been very good this season, and I thought he was especially outstanding last night. Heck, he even made a floater and had a couple other tough finishes near the hoop.

He has limitations as every player does. He's still weak going right, and until his shot actually goes in at a decent rate over a span of multiple games, I don't know how anybody can say anything other than his shooting is poor. But I've been very impressed with his body of work in the small sample so far this season.

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2022, 10:39:20 AM »
Guys who might be able to create their own shot on this team.... Sean Jones maybe and David Joplin maybe..

Without Kolek this is a horrible offense.

Agreed on Sean Jones being able to create his own shot and most likely for others as well. I thought we would see more of Sean out there with Kolek to get Kolek some catch and shoot opportunities.  That will likely get him going and then he may have more confidence off the dribble.

It’s fun to watch this team play. Lots of wide open looks missed that will hopefully go down at a higher percentage as the team settles in to the season.  That 2 on one with Ross was a big missed opportunity.  Could have won this game despite not playing that well on offense.  The defense was good enough against a tough opponent on the road. 


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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2022, 10:40:58 AM »
When Edey returned, it was over.   

I'm pretty sure we outscored them when Edey was in the game and were outscored when Edey was on the bench.

I know for certain that we were up 58-52 when Edey left at the 9:39 mark of the second half but were trailing 63-62 when he came back in at 4:43. We were outscored 11-4 during those 5 minutes and never saw the lead again.

Edey got his on offense and altered some shots on defense. But in general, we attacked them pretty good while he was out there, as well as holding our own against Purdue both on D and on the glass.

As conditioned etc that our guys are, clearly they were gassed towards the end and Purdue was not.   Tired legs, short shots, etc.   Battling Edey wears in you.  And Purdue seemed pretty fresh at the end.   When Edey returned, it was over. 

But overall a great effort.   Can’t go 5+ minutes without scoring in any game and expect to win.   

I totally agree with the rest of this.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 11:02:24 AM by MU82 »
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2022, 10:59:52 AM »
Guys who might be able to create their own shot on this team.... Sean Jones maybe and David Joplin maybe..

Without Kolek this is a horrible offense.

What about our pro prospect who’s leaving early?
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2022, 11:12:34 AM »
loved the pressure defense when they had fresh legs, but to keep up that level for 40 minutes isn't reasonable unless you have adequate substitutes

if shaka's gonna press and play in your jock defense, he's going to have to give the nucleus of 6 a little more of a break...if he can.  hopefully we will see another player or 2 seize the opportunity and rise up to a level where we aren't giving much up on 2nd/3rd line
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2022, 11:19:34 AM »
I thought their heads went before their legs did. And MU didn't press for 40 minutes, not even close.

I mentioned it leading up to the game, but MU has to address the weakside corner defensively. With all the switching they do that corner gets ignored at times and Purdue was able to punish it.

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2022, 12:10:17 PM »
I'm pretty sure we outscored them when Edey was in the game and were outscored when Edey was on the bench.

I know for certain that we were up 58-52 when Edey left at the 9:39 mark of the second half but were trailing 63-62 when he came back in at 4:43. We were outscored 11-4 during those 5 minutes and never saw the lead again.

Edey got his on offense and altered some shots on defense. But in general, we attacked them pretty good while he was out there, as well as holding our own against Purdue both on D and on the glass.

I totally agree with the rest of this.
Was this the time of the game were Gold missed a three pointer and Ross missed two three pointers?

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2022, 12:16:21 PM »
I thought their heads went before their legs did. And MU didn't press for 40 minutes, not even close.

I mentioned it leading up to the game, but MU has to address the weakside corner defensively. With all the switching they do that corner gets ignored at times and Purdue was able to punish it.

Good point.  We also got beat consistently hard right by two guys with modest blow by speed. 

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2022, 01:34:23 PM »
Was this the time of the game were Gold missed a three pointer and Ross missed two three pointers?

During those 5 minutes ... Ross missed 3 shots, including a pair of 3s; Mitchell and Kolek also missed 3s; Joplin and Oso missed in the paint; and Kolek committed his only turnover of the night.

Gold wasn't in the game during that span, but he did miss a 3 about a minute earlier when we were up 56-49.
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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2022, 12:03:30 AM »
I typically don’t like to start full threads on one game played, but I think this one showed us a glimpse of a few keys for the season as a whole.

1- First off, great game, very enjoyable until the meltdown at the end. MU led for a large portion of it and looked very much the part of a NCAA tourney team in a tough spot on the road, even though from what I saw I think Purdue will be a 7-10 seed squad at best this season (hope I’m wrong!)

2- Great shooting games by Kam and Jop. They won’t always shoot as well, but we’ve got a few scorers. Kam needs to figure out that there is such a thing as a horrendous shot, but no one else is scoring who cares I guess. It’s obvious that Marquettes coaches don’t value the midrange, because none of the guards know how to score there and Kam can really use it badly.

3- Now to my main takeaways of the game.
Game specific- I saw brew say something about Purdue getting away with one, and I sort of agree. I couldn’t help but think during latter part of the game that Marquette played really damn well and was the better team for most of the game, led for over 30 minutes, but might lose by a margin worse than the spread and it would look like a bad loss to the computers.

Im not here to argue computer data versus the eye test stuff, but my point is that it woulda been a damn shame for MU to lose by 10+ and have that look like a bad loss when in reality it wasn’t. That’s the downside of the computer driven era. Nice late 3s by Kam and Jop saved that.

The other downside of computers is that instead of being royally pissed about losing a game Marquette coulda won I was happy they managed to keep it close at the end, and that’s just not the spirit of competition.

4- OMax Prosper.
Good defense, but 4 points and 5 rebounds.
2-4 shooting….

Marquette lost this game because of OMax.
This team will not win games with Omax playing all those minutes and scoring 4 points, only attempting 4 shots.

The hype was clearly overblown, but this Marquette squad needs OMax to be a double digit scorer and to be aggressive.
The intangibles are there, but OMax is not with performances like that.

5- Tyler Kolek.
This will be controversial cause Tyler played his guts out and is clearly irreplaceable, but this Marquette team will not make the tournament without a more successful TyKo offensively.

When the BE gauntlet comes teams will mitigate his distribution.
He doesn’t shoot well from distance, he doesn’t have a midrange jumper or floater, he had a few nice drives today but it’s not nearly enough.

OMax and Tyler get a lions share of the minutes at their positions and are good at what they do, they are irreplaceable at this point.
If they don’t improve on the other parts of their game this team will suffer greatly because of it.

I can probably bump this every game and it’ll still be accurate.

Someone let me know if I’m wrong

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Re: OMax Prosper, Tyler Kolek and the Computers.
« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2022, 03:31:28 AM »
Dead on about Omax and Kolek.  Omax does his part offensively and we win.  Kolek offense was good but he didn’t take care of the ball.  Consistently high level performances are needed from these two or we will fail all year. 

 

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