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Author Topic: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws  (Read 5996 times)

JWags85

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2022, 11:34:40 AM »
There are absolutely people who can't afford therapy for their mentally troubled child. I have no idea if that was the case in Uvalde, but it is not accurate to say that everyone who needs therapy can afford it.

I never said everyone can.  I did say people aren't avoiding it over "fear of bankruptcy".  I didn't go to a pair of awesome bachelor parties in my mid 20s cause I couldn't afford it.  I didn't avoid them cause I feared bankruptcy.  You don't start going to therapy and then all of a sudden you're on the brink of bankruptcy a month later.

But on the other hand, I don't think its justified to react to someone who was clearly mentally troubled and had myriad red flags with "well healthcare is too expensive in this country, what were they supposed to do" without further evidence like them being flagged for therapy and the family discontinuing due to lack of funds.  Just like you can't always just blame parents and absolve the system, you can't always snap blame the system and absolve parents.

Thats all I was saying.

I doubt these threads are changing anyone's mind, but I have seen posters whose positions on gun control have shifted from the right towards the left over the years.

Sure, opinions and positions always change.  Mine have on a number of things over the years.  But I have GREAT doubt that those shifts were due to the crap flinging and redundant posting here.

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2022, 11:52:35 AM »
Many supplements have zero $ premiums while still providing Rx and out patient coverage.

Ah, a fan of Medicare Advantage plans.  That's pretty republican of you, William.

Jockey

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2022, 12:42:19 PM »
Red flag laws.
No long guns until 21.

Boom.

No weapons of war.

forgetful

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2022, 12:50:11 PM »
I never said everyone can.  I did say people aren't avoiding it over "fear of bankruptcy".  I didn't go to a pair of awesome bachelor parties in my mid 20s cause I couldn't afford it.  I didn't avoid them cause I feared bankruptcy.  You don't start going to therapy and then all of a sudden you're on the brink of bankruptcy a month later.


I don't want to get into any of the arguments besides the mental health issue. But you are wrong in saying people don't avoid therapy because of a "fear of bankruptcy". There are a lot of people that a single health visit will bankrupt them. They avoid all healthcare, including mental healthcare because it is unaffordable.

I know of students who have committed suicide because they couldn't afford mental health care or were ashamed at how much the cost was bankrupting their families, or avoided therapy because they had no money to pay for it...food or medicine...food or therapy.


Pakuni

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2022, 01:12:51 PM »
I never said everyone can.  I did say people aren't avoiding it over "fear of bankruptcy".  I didn't go to a pair of awesome bachelor parties in my mid 20s cause I couldn't afford it.  I didn't avoid them cause I feared bankruptcy.  You don't start going to therapy and then all of a sudden you're on the brink of bankruptcy a month later.

But on the other hand, I don't think its justified to react to someone who was clearly mentally troubled and had myriad red flags with "well healthcare is too expensive in this country, what were they supposed to do" without further evidence like them being flagged for therapy and the family discontinuing due to lack of funds.  Just like you can't always just blame parents and absolve the system, you can't always snap blame the system and absolve parents.

This is fair. I think obviously every situation is different (except one common denominator - pew pew - in all these cases) and we can't blame failings or the costs of the mental health system without knowing more information.

That said, you're willing to accept that people will fear bankruptcy over funding for some health care - cancer treatment, in your example - but not for mental health treatment. Why?

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2022, 01:29:57 PM »

You do realize that Medicare doesn't cover everything, right.  That's why seniors need to purchase Medicare supplements.  Which are costly, especially on fixed income.

Ah, a fan of Medicare Advantage plans.  That's pretty republican of you, William.

What dafuque is your problem? I only pointed out not all Medicare plans are as costly as you posted.
He can't help himself.  Self control of a 5 year old.

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JWags85

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2022, 01:32:29 PM »
This is fair. I think obviously every situation is different (except one common denominator - pew pew - in all these cases) and we can't blame failings or the costs of the mental health system without knowing more information.

That said, you're willing to accept that people will fear bankruptcy over funding for some health care - cancer treatment, in your example - but not for mental health treatment. Why?

Because, imo, cancer treatment or severe accident care is a 5/6 figure bomb of a bill dropped on you.  Mental health care, not saying it can't be pricey, but isn't debilitating immediately.  I, and others in my family and friends, have had to pay for therapy out of pocket or out of network in the past, and it can be pricey, without a doubt.  But not in a "thousands of dollars immediately with a billing cycle or two" pricey.  Like if you had to Uber to work due to a lack of public transportation available versus you have to buy a new car to get to work otherwise you can't make it next week.

I'm obviously not operating in the extremes of someone who can't afford any medical care at all, period, like Forgetful was saying.

As I mentioned before, unless there was a theme of "the shooter was in therapy, but his family could no longer afford, his therapy lapsed, and this happened" it just seems a divergent path to counter any talk of red flags or "why wasn't this person in therapy" with "well its just too expensive" straight away.

(This isn't in any way meant to be a defense of the way this country approaches mental health or how its costed)

MU82

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2022, 01:38:43 PM »
Apparently this psycho enjoyed carrying bloodied dead cats around in plastic bags.   Just your average shts and grins hobby.  There were a number of red flags and they were all over the place.  Now, I think it's ridiculous he was easily able to purchase these weapons for his 18th birthday but his parents and those who knew him had ample evidence he needed immediate psychological intervention/help.

Yessir: Red-Flag Law, my friend. Should be easy peasy because it's one a huge majority of Americans favor.

And yessir: If you can't legally buy a beer until you're 21, you shouldn't be able to legally buy a gun until you're 21 either. Some might argue that younger people would find a way to get guns anyway, and I'm sure some would. But the two most recent high-profile mass murderers specifically waited until they were they were of legal age (18) to get their guns even though I'm sure either or both could have found a way to get 'em at 17. Maybe a mandate till 21 would have made both of them wait at least a while longer, and maybe they would have gotten mental help or been red-flagged (or both) in the interim (if a red-flag law existed).

Such common sense, Muggs. It's hard to believe any person would be against laws like these that would save the lives we all consider so precious.

I doubt these threads are changing anyone's mind, but I have seen posters whose positions on gun control have shifted from the right towards the left over the years.

Yep. I'm pretty sure that both Muggsy and pacesarrow02 are quite right of you and me on most issues, and yet between them they have shown support for a red-flag law, a no-buy-till-21 law, a magazine-capacity law and a ban on assault-rifle-type weapons. Maybe they've always been for such things, but maybe they've evolved on the issue. Either way, I applaud them for wanting to save lives by making it less easy to get guns.

We've have had seven topics on gun violence locked in the last few weeks.  I would think you'd get the hint that starting another one would be a bad idea.

It's too important an issue -- literally life or death, and for the most vulnerable among us. So #8 it is (if your count was accurate).

If it gets locked, it gets locked. I trust the mods.
"We understand that for some reason, to people with money, to people who fund political campaigns, guns are more important than children. Today we stand for Lexi, and as her voice, we demand action."

-- Kimberly Rubio, whose daughter Lexi was among 19 schoolchildren slaughtered in Uvalde, Texas

BrewCity83

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2022, 01:43:33 PM »
And yessir: If you can't legally buy a beer until you're 21, you shouldn't be able to legally buy a gun until you're 21 either. Some might argue that younger people would find a way to get guns anyway, and I'm sure some would. But the two most recent high-profile mass murderers specifically waited until they were they were of legal age (18) to get their guns even though I'm sure either or both could have found a way to get 'em at 17. Maybe a mandate till 21 would have made both of them wait at least a while longer, and maybe they would have gotten mental help or been red-flagged (or both) in the interim (if a red-flag law existed).

Such common sense, Muggs. It's hard to believe any person would be against laws like these that would save the lives we all consider so precious.

So it's common sense for an 18-19-20 year-old American to serve in the U.S. military, often being highly trained in the use of guns and other more dangerous weapons, but not able to buy a gun of any kind?
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TAMU Eagle

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2022, 01:55:32 PM »
Sure, opinions and positions always change.  Mine have on a number of things over the years.  But I have GREAT doubt that those shifts were due to the crap flinging and redundant posting here.

Maybe. But I wouldn't discount them entirely. There's usually thoughtful discussions intermingled with the crap flinging and redundant posting. I have never had my position changed by a scoop thread, but I certainly have learned new things and considered alternative perspectives that I hadn't previously heard before.
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The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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TAMU Eagle

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2022, 02:00:06 PM »
So it's common sense for an 18-19-20 year-old American to serve in the U.S. military, often being highly trained in the use of guns and other more dangerous weapons, but not able to buy a gun of any kind?

Well, personally I question if we should be having 18-20 year olds serving in the military. But I think there are two key differences here. First, the 18-20 year olds in the military are being highly trained as you pointed out, whereas other 18-20 year olds can just waltz into their local Texas WalMart and buy themselves an assault weapon with no previous training. If we passed a law that required additional training for gun owners, I'd be comfortable waiving that training for military members given the training they already receive. Second, military weapons have a massive amount of oversight. Private weapons? Virtually no oversight.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Jockey

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2022, 02:04:45 PM »


Yep. I'm pretty sure that both Muggsy and pacesarrow02 are quite right of you and me on most issues, and yet between them they have shown support for a red-flag law, a no-buy-till-21 law, a magazine-capacity law and a ban on assault-rifle-type weapons. Maybe they've always been for such things, but maybe they've evolved on the issue. Either way, I applaud them for wanting to save lives by making it less easy to get guns.



People say they are for red flag laws and then vote for people who are against them.

That is why we don’t get the laws we need.

MU82

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2022, 02:12:08 PM »
So it's common sense for an 18-19-20 year-old American to serve in the U.S. military, often being highly trained in the use of guns and other more dangerous weapons, but not able to buy a gun of any kind?

Please refer to TAMU's response, as I would have said what he did (though probably not as eloquently).

Mandatory training before legal gun ownership ... there's another one I hope we all can agree on!
"We understand that for some reason, to people with money, to people who fund political campaigns, guns are more important than children. Today we stand for Lexi, and as her voice, we demand action."

-- Kimberly Rubio, whose daughter Lexi was among 19 schoolchildren slaughtered in Uvalde, Texas

Pakuni

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2022, 02:15:06 PM »
So it's common sense for an 18-19-20 year-old American to serve in the U.S. military, often being highly trained in the use of guns and other more dangerous weapons, but not able to buy a gun of any kind?

Let's also allow 18-20 year olds to acquire anti-tank missiles, grenade launchers and armored vehicles since some of them are highly trained in their use in the military.
Or, maybe the real common sense here is to recognize that some things can serve a military purpose but not a civilian one.

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2022, 02:18:38 PM »
What dafuque is your problem? I only pointed out not all Medicare plans are as costly as you posted.

Chill, dude.  Sorry you spilled something on your lefty card.  It will be ok.

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2022, 02:21:48 PM »
So it's common sense for an 18-19-20 year-old American to serve in the U.S. military, often being highly trained in the use of guns and other more dangerous weapons, but not able to buy a gun of any kind?

Don't under-21 members of the military have the legal ability to drink on bases despite the universal 21-yr old drinking age?

lawdog77

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2022, 02:54:06 PM »
Would a red flag law have worked here? Ihavent lloked at his past behavior closely, but if  he wasnt in treatment, and he hadnt been arrested for any crime, how would have  the red flag law been used? Me personally, I think everyone who wants a gun should get a psych eval along with a written test, and a pass a practical exam. Run 100 yard dash to get the heart rate up and have to score a certain amout on the shooting portion.

JWags85

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2022, 02:56:32 PM »
Let's also allow 18-20 year olds to acquire anti-tank missiles, grenade launchers and armored vehicles since some of them are highly trained in their use in the military.
Or, maybe the real common sense here is to recognize that some things can serve a military purpose but not a civilian one.

Id almost argue that military membership/experience would qualify someone to own under the theoretical new 21 year old age limit.  (Same way farm kids in rural states can get drivers licenses under 16.)  Cause they would have the experience and training necessary to know and understand guns.   The kind of training people over the age of 21 without military experience should have to have upon purchase.

That wouldn't free them to have an AR-15 though.  Just like an trained and experienced race car driver isn't free to drive their race car down the highway.

Pakuni

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2022, 03:11:26 PM »
Would a red flag law have worked here? Ihavent lloked at his past behavior closely, but if  he wasnt in treatment, and he hadnt been arrested for any crime, how would have  the red flag law been used? Me personally, I think everyone who wants a gun should get a psych eval along with a written test, and a pass a practical exam. Run 100 yard dash to get the heart rate up and have to score a certain amout on the shooting portion.

Maybe?
In most states where red flag law exists, there's no requirement of an arrest or current mental health treatment. Just a credible (as determined by a court) complaint from a family member, police or someone else that the weapon-owner is showing warning signs of violence.
Obviously the key to any red flag law succeeding is someone reporting the "red flag" behavior.
In this case, there were many, many such red flags. Whether someone would have reported them, had there been a law in Texas, we'll never know. But had police or a family member gone to court with the information we now know, I would not be surprised if the kid's guns weren't taken away.
But again, it all comes down to someone making the report.

FWIW, experts in these things say the large majority of mass shooters give away multiple red flags to multiple people before carrying it out.

Lennys Tap

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2022, 03:19:31 PM »
Yessir: Red-Flag Law, my friend. Should be easy peasy because it's one a huge majority of Americans favor.

And yessir: If you can't legally buy a beer until you're 21, you shouldn't be able to legally buy a gun until you're 21 either. Some might argue that younger people would find a way to get guns anyway, and I'm sure some would. But the two most recent high-profile mass murderers specifically waited until they were they were of legal age (18) to get their guns even though I'm sure either or both could have found a way to get 'em at 17. Maybe a mandate till 21 would have made both of them wait at least a while longer, and maybe they would have gotten mental help or been red-flagged (or both) in the interim (if a red-flag law existed).


No guns, no booze, no smokes until 21. Totally agree. Add no voting to to the list and it’s pretty well complete.

BrewCity83

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2022, 04:38:27 PM »
Lenny, with none of these rights (including no voting rights) would you still allow the government to draft 18-19-20 year olds into the military?
The shaka sign, sometimes known as "hang loose", is a gesture of friendly intent often associated with Hawaii and surf culture.

Pakuni

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2022, 04:40:10 PM »
Why don't they just cooperate?

 @AaronKatersky
The Uvalde Police Department and the Uvalde ISD police force are no longer cooperating with the @TxDPS investigation into the massacre at Robb Elementary and the state’s review of police response, multiple law enforcement sources told @ABC
w/ @JoshMargolin

JWags85

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2022, 05:00:08 PM »
Why don't they just cooperate?

 @AaronKatersky
The Uvalde Police Department and the Uvalde ISD police force are no longer cooperating with the @TxDPS investigation into the massacre at Robb Elementary and the state’s review of police response, multiple law enforcement sources told @ABC
w/ @JoshMargolin

Do they have potential liability for their failure to act? Civil suits and otherwise?  Its clearly desperate CYA

MU82

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2022, 05:12:11 PM »
The Supreme Court today blocked a Texas law that would ban large social media companies from removing posts based on the views they express. Writing for the dissent, Justice Alito said he was skeptical of the argument that the social media companies have editorial discretion protected by the First Amendment like that enjoyed by newspapers and other traditional publishers:

“It is not at all obvious how our existing precedents, which predate the age of the internet, should apply to large social media companies.”

OK, now replace that last paragraph with this one regarding the subject of this thread:

"It is not at all obvious how our existing precedents, which predate the age of hand-held killing machines that can fire off hundreds of rounds in a matter of seconds, should apply to large gun companies."

"We understand that for some reason, to people with money, to people who fund political campaigns, guns are more important than children. Today we stand for Lexi, and as her voice, we demand action."

-- Kimberly Rubio, whose daughter Lexi was among 19 schoolchildren slaughtered in Uvalde, Texas

Lennys Tap

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2022, 05:14:18 PM »
Lenny, with none of these rights (including no voting rights) would you still allow the government to draft 18-19-20 year olds into the military?

Moot point, Brew, since we have an all volunteer military. But I never got the old enough to serve, old enough to <fill in the blank>. While I will concede that young men and women tend to grow up quicker in the military than they do in civilian life, carving out a special set of rights or privileges specifically for them probably wouldn’t be either constitutional nor advisable.