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Author Topic: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws  (Read 23308 times)

MuggsyB

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2022, 09:54:32 PM »
People went NUTS for the Black Dahlia murder in LA in the late 40s.  The media and public fervor for it was insatiable for awhile.

In Cold Blood helped make Truman Capote a superstar.

Okay.  But with instant access these days you can see these stories 24/7. 

Its far from anything new.  The public's interest in the macabre goes back to the days of public executions, aka thousands of years

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #76 on: June 01, 2022, 07:12:05 AM »
How to Prevent Gun Massacres? Look Around the World
Australia, Britain, Canada, and other countries have enacted reforms that turned mass shootings into rare, aberrational events rather than everyday occurrences.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/how-to-prevent-gun-massacres-look-around-the-world

"Just over a year ago, Australia marked the twenty-fifth anniversary of the transformation brought about by the Port Arthur rampage. In a country of roughly twenty-seven million people, there are still a lot of guns in private hands—in 2020, there were an estimated 3.5 million. But the number of mass shootings, defined as attacks in which at least four people are killed, has declined precipitously. In the decade before Port Arthur, there had been eleven such incidents. In the quarter century since, there have been three, the worst of which involved a farmer in Western Australia killing six family members.

What happened in Australia provides a concrete example of how a healthy democracy can confront powerful interests to introduce rational policies that clearly benefit the country. The Australian success story also reminds us what a dismal outlier the United States remains in terms of gun violence and political will even in the face of the most gruesome and abhorrent of all mass shootings: the killings of schoolchildren.

The evidence couldn’t be more plain. Other countries haven’t entirely eliminated mass shootings, but they have enacted reforms that helped turn them into rare, aberrational events rather than the everyday occurrences they are in this country. Is it any wonder that much of the rest of the world considers us mad? From afar, the evidence suggests that we are. Up close, however, the real problem isn’t mass insanity. It’s political capture and a system that, aided by the filibuster, entrenches the status quo and prevents desperately needed reforms. Until we tackle these systemic problems, nothing will change."
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

rocky_warrior

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #77 on: June 01, 2022, 12:18:15 PM »
On the idea of strict gun access, what about annual taxes on guns one owns or higher insurance rates for owners, similar to a smoker?

This is an interesting idea.  Although as opposed to taxes, I'd go more the car route:  Require liability insurance per gun owned.

But alas, neither idea will probably ever be supported.

pacearrow02

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #78 on: June 01, 2022, 12:31:11 PM »
This is an interesting idea.  Although as opposed to taxes, I'd go more the car route:  Require liability insurance per gun owned.

But alas, neither idea will probably ever be supported.

Not sure this does anything other then penalize legal law abiding gun owners.  I think the goal of any legislation needs to be solely focused on preventing gun related crimes/deaths.  Anyone willing to commit murder will have no problem not paying a higher insurance premium or even reporting they have a gun for that matter.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #79 on: June 01, 2022, 12:31:58 PM »
This is an interesting idea.  Although as opposed to taxes, I'd go more the car route:  Require liability insurance per gun owned.

But alas, neither idea will probably ever be supported.

The car analogy is apt in many ways.


If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

SERocks

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #80 on: June 01, 2022, 12:33:09 PM »
No problem.  The preliminary count is 156 dead across the country.

Thoughts and prayers.

Pakuni

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #81 on: June 01, 2022, 02:23:17 PM »
Not sure this does anything other then penalize legal law abiding gun owners.

Salvador Ramos was a legal, law abiding gun owner. And then he wasn't.
Same with Stephen Paddock. Omar Mateen. Seung-Hui Cho. Patrick Crusius. James Holmes. And so on and so forth.

rocky_warrior

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #82 on: June 01, 2022, 02:38:04 PM »
Not sure this does anything other then penalize legal law abiding gun owners.

I mean, I'm a legal, law abiding vehicle owner, and never hit anyone with my vehicle to use liability insurance.  Why am I being penalized?

lawdog77

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #83 on: June 01, 2022, 02:43:03 PM »
I mean, I'm a legal, law abiding vehicle owner, and never hit anyone with my vehicle to use liability insurance.  Why am I being penalized?
So will we be seeing stupid gun insurance commercials (Geico, Progressive, Liberty Mutual)?  In all seriousness, make sure they have gun insurance BEFORE they are allowed to buy a gun, and automatic seizure for insurance lapses. Oh, and can someone other than the big insurance companies get the profits.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #84 on: June 01, 2022, 03:22:01 PM »
So will we be seeing stupid gun insurance commercials (Geico, Progressive, Liberty Mutual)?  I


If someone takes out the Geico gecko, Flo from Progressive, and Limu Emu and Doug, I'm on completely board.
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Pakuni

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #85 on: June 01, 2022, 03:40:27 PM »

If someone takes out the Geico gecko, Flo from Progressive, and Limu Emu and Doug, I'm on completely board.

And yet you'd led the Aflac duck live on?

Jockey

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #86 on: June 01, 2022, 04:05:52 PM »
And yet you'd led the Aflac duck live on?

Didn't he just die?

BrewCity83

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #87 on: June 01, 2022, 04:20:06 PM »
The car analogy is apt in many ways.



There are so many issues with this illustration.

1) Carmaker Legally Liable for its Product:  Not if the driver crashes it and kills someone.  Only liable if the car or its parts fail causing an accident.  Would/should this be any different for a gun maker?

2)  I'll summarize the rest here:  How many drivers ignore some or all of the legal requirements?  How are they caught?  How are they penalized?  Do the police have the resources to enforce all of these requirements?  How would violators of the proposed gun laws/requirements be caught?  How would they be enforced?  How would they be penalized? 

It seems obvious that anyone who is willing to break the law to the extent that they're going to kill people with a gun aren't going to give a sh!t whether the gun they can get their hands on is legal.  Good luck enforcing most of the restrictions in advance of any shootings.
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #88 on: June 01, 2022, 04:28:01 PM »
There are so many issues with this illustration.

1) Carmaker Legally Liable for its Product:  Not if the driver crashes it and kills someone.  Only liable if the car or its parts fail causing an accident.  Would/should this be any different for a gun maker?

2)  I'll summarize the rest here:  How many drivers ignore some or all of the legal requirements?  How are they caught?  How are they penalized?  Do the police have the resources to enforce all of these requirements?  How would violators of the proposed gun laws/requirements be caught?  How would they be enforced?  How would they be penalized? 

It seems obvious that anyone who is willing to break the law to the extent that they're going to kill people with a gun aren't going to give a sh!t whether the gun they can get their hands on is legal.  Good luck enforcing most of the restrictions in advance of any shootings.


blah, blah, blah ... excuse, excuse, excuse

Yet many other countries have had success doing many of these same things.  But you apparently think that since no law can be perfect, they can never been enacted.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

BrewCity83

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #89 on: June 01, 2022, 04:41:19 PM »
The laws against murdering people are working just great, aren't they?
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rocky_warrior

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #90 on: June 01, 2022, 04:47:21 PM »
The laws against murdering people are working just great, aren't they?

Wait then.  Is it your contention that nothing should change with gun control, and all is fine?

And perhaps we should even get rid of laws against murder?  Because obviously they don't work either?

BrewCity83

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #91 on: June 01, 2022, 04:51:32 PM »
No, clearly all is not fine.  I'm saying that all this talk about more restrictions likely won't do much to stop the mayhem with most of the gun-owning Americans who are killing people.  They ignore the laws.  They will ignore any new laws.  Whatever new gun control measures are considered need to focus on those who are committing the crimes, and that is going to be really hard to do.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2022, 04:55:00 PM »
There are so many issues with this illustration.

1) Carmaker Legally Liable for its Product:  Not if the driver crashes it and kills someone.  Only liable if the car or its parts fail causing an accident.  Would/should this be any different for a gun maker?

2)  I'll summarize the rest here:  How many drivers ignore some or all of the legal requirements?  How are they caught?  How are they penalized?  Do the police have the resources to enforce all of these requirements?  How would violators of the proposed gun laws/requirements be caught?  How would they be enforced?  How would they be penalized? 

It seems obvious that anyone who is willing to break the law to the extent that they're going to kill people with a gun aren't going to give a sh!t whether the gun they can get their hands on is legal.  Good luck enforcing most of the restrictions in advance of any shootings.

Agree with your #1.

Regarding your #2, is your suggestion that no laws matter because some people will ignore them? Seat belt laws are very difficult to enforce, yet since they went into effect we went from a vast minority of drivers wearing seat belts to a vast majority of them wearing seat belts. Yes, some drivers still don't wear seat belts and yes, they more often than not don't get caught. Yet the presence of the law completely changed the culture around seat belts and has had great success decreasing the number of unbuckled drivers.
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rocky_warrior

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #93 on: June 01, 2022, 04:55:29 PM »
Whatever new gun control measures are considered need to focus on those who are committing the crimes, and that is going to be really hard to do.

Regardless of anyone's opinions of what could, or should be done, it's only "really hard" because some of our lawmakers are too chicken-sh*t to do anything.

Jockey

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #94 on: June 01, 2022, 05:11:56 PM »
No, clearly all is not fine.  I'm saying that all this talk about more restrictions likely won't do much to stop the mayhem with most of the gun-owning Americans who are killing people.  They ignore the laws.  They will ignore any new laws.  Whatever new gun control measures are considered need to focus on those who are committing the crimes, and that is going to be really hard to do.

Because of American exceptionalism? Restrictions in other countries have done a lot to reduce these crimes. Why would it be different here?

I get that you are against any restrictions - but that doesn't mean they won't work.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #95 on: June 01, 2022, 05:14:06 PM »
No, clearly all is not fine.  I'm saying that all this talk about more restrictions likely won't do much to stop the mayhem with most of the gun-owning Americans who are killing people.  They ignore the laws.  They will ignore any new laws.  Whatever new gun control measures are considered need to focus on those who are committing the crimes, and that is going to be really hard to do.

This ignores several realities.

If you ban certain types of guns, it will create several barriers that a prospective shooter must be able to overcome in order to obtain the banned weapon. First, production of banned gun would massively decrease, lowering the total number of these weapons available. Second, it will mean that these weapons will no longer be able to be purchased legally. This means that a prospective shooter would have to find someone selling illegal weapons. Do you know how to get ahold of someone selling illegal weapons? Most people don't and while some would figure it out, I would argue that many shooters have significant mental health problems that would keep them from having the determination or know how to seek these individuals out. Next, say they locate an illegal weapons dealer, the cost of an illegal weapon is going to be significantly higher than a legal one you can but from your local gun shop. So you've created an economic barrier between prospective shooters and their assault weapons. You've also created a dangerous buying situation for the prospective shooter. They aren't dealing with a walmart employee, they are dealing with a criminal who may rip off  or even harm the prospective shooter. Not only that, but there is also the risk of the dealer being an undercover police officer or target of a raid. This would give the police the ability to intervene during the purchase of an illegal weapon, long before any innocents die. Further, this process would also take more time than it currently does in many states, giving more people time to notice red flags and potentially intervene or for the prospective shooter to lose their will.

This is just some of the ways that gun regulation would create barriers between a prospective and realized mass shooter. Would some shooters still find a way to purchase these weapons and carry out a mass shooting? Absolutely. Would the number of and casualties per mass shooting also go down? I would say undoubtedly.

Secondary and tertiary prevention are important, but primary prevention is the only way to stop gun violence without anyone being harmed. You need to engage in all three levels.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 05:16:18 PM by TAMU Eagle »
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The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #96 on: June 01, 2022, 05:33:54 PM »
No, clearly all is not fine.  I'm saying that all this talk about more restrictions likely won't do much to stop the mayhem with most of the gun-owning Americans who are killing people.  They ignore the laws.  They will ignore any new laws.  Whatever new gun control measures are considered need to focus on those who are committing the crimes, and that is going to be really hard to do.

Even though many of these things have reduced mass shootings in other places.

Which is a point brought up here repeatedly…and ignored. 
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JWags85

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2022, 05:35:35 PM »
Id argue that "gun loving" Americans by and large arent the ones doing the killing.  The ridiculed (not necessarily without reason) people posing with their 50 guns arent the ones doing the mass shootings.  However, the need to completely unfetter their hobbies, interests, and/or fetishes are what provides the access to the people who do.  And thats the issue.

The irony for me is that the majority of gun legislation, aside from outlawing AR-15s or whatnot, would not prevent them from having their Lord of War arsenal, just make it SLIGHTLY more time consuming to compile.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #98 on: June 01, 2022, 05:41:56 PM »
Id argue that "gun loving" Americans by and large arent the ones doing the killing.  The ridiculed (not necessarily without reason) people posing with their 50 guns arent the ones doing the mass shootings.  However, the need to completely unfetter their hobbies, interests, and/or fetishes are what provides the access to the people who do.  And thats the issue.

The irony for me is that the majority of gun legislation, aside from outlawing AR-15s or whatnot, would not prevent them from having their Lord of War arsenal, just make it SLIGHTLY more time consuming to compile.

Agree. This is about keeping them out of the hands of people who could be dangerous.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: In response to U.S. gun carnage, Canada to enact tough laws
« Reply #99 on: June 01, 2022, 06:04:25 PM »
No, clearly all is not fine.  I'm saying that all this talk about more restrictions likely won't do much to stop the mayhem with most of the gun-owning Americans who are killing people.  They ignore the laws.  They will ignore any new laws.  Whatever new gun control measures are considered need to focus on those who are committing the crimes, and that is going to be really hard to do.

Oh good, another apostle of the Church of Ziggy Logic. We shouldn't have laws because criminals don't care about laws! So brilliant.

You're right: there is absolutely nothing we can do, as evidenced by every single other western country.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

 

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