Can Marquette be "The Next Villanova"?

[Uncle Rico]

Better resources, great history, coaching under Shaka, great fan base, and better lovers of the program, most right here on Scoop.

Why not?

Villanova has better history and a better program.  How much better are Marquette’s resources.  Please list

[MU82]

You serious, Clark? It means JO'ing this topic doesnt mean anything. Recruit, coach, win, repeat. Jay Wrights stats between 2004 and 2007 dont mean anything, Shake must build and you must attend games because you're a fan. Does that make sense MU Eighty two?

Nope.

Who's Clark? Who's Shake? What's JO'ing? Do you know what an apostrophe is? What did I or anybody else say that suggests "Recruit, coach, win, repeat" isn't important?

[willie warrior]

Villanova has better history and a better program.  How much better are Marquette’s resources.  Please list

Disagree with those opinions
What about their early years under Wright?
Both programs have had ups and downs. If you feel that MU cannot take over for Villanova, go over to their board and become their fan butt boy

[Uncle Rico]

Disagree with those opinions
What about their early years under Wright?
Both programs have had ups and downs. If you feel that MU cannot take over for Villanova, go over to their board and become their fan butt boy

Butt boy?  🤔

[The Equalizer]

I'm not sure I agree. At least in the sense that we can recruit that well. Ochefu, Arcidiacono, Hart, Jenkins, Bridges, and Booth may have been East Coasters forming the foundation of that first title team, but they were all four-star recruits outside the top-40. The only 5-star was Jalen Brunson, from Chicago, and even he was at the lower end of the five-star list (#22 per 247). They won not because of the big recruiting battles but rather because they recruited the right kind of guys. They prioritized culture over recruiting rankings and got the kind of guys that Marquette has been able to get for at least the last 20 years.

Honestly, it's one of the first things that really convinced me after Shaka was hired. The "all culture for two years" is the kind of focus it takes to win big. I also like that Shaka somewhat had his Jay Wright moment of coming up short with elite recruits at Texas. It takes the right leader and right recruits, but Tyler Kolek, O-Max, Kam Jones, David Joplin, Stevie Mitchell, Sean Jones, those look like the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable.

Jay Wright's "dialed back" recruiting still consists a ton of of 4-star players mostly ranked 40 to 80, paired with a fairly routine five-star like Jalen Brunson or Jeremiah Robinson-Earl or Omari Spellman. 

And ironically five of Wright's six highest-rated recruits since 2000 were recruited after the supposed "Jay Wright" moment.
https://247sports.com/college/villanova/Sport/Basketball/AllTimeRecruits/.  In other words, he's still going after them.

He's got another 5-star Cam Whitmore signed for next year (to go along with #45 Mark Armstrong and #100 Brendan Hausen).  He's got two more offers out for five stars in 2023. 

I'll give you that he ADDED culture as a co-equal priority to go along with a strategy of pursuing highly-rated players. But clearly, he didn't stop recruiting high-rated players.

Compare Wright's recruiting this year's MU class of #148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross and unranked Ben Gold. 

[BobWildLoyalist]

Nope.

Who's Clark? Who's Shake? What's JO'ing? Do you know what an apostrophe is? What did I or anybody else say that suggests "Recruit, coach, win, repeat" isn't important?

There's an apostrophe in JO'ing, Clark.

[IrwinFletcher]

Nope.

Who's Clark? Who's Shake? What's JO'ing? Do you know what an apostrophe is? What did I or anybody else say that suggests "Recruit, coach, win, repeat" isn't important?

If you don't get the "Clark" reference, don't bother asking, you won't get it.

Irwin Fletcher certainly gets it.

[MU82]

There's an apostrophe in JO'ing, Clark.

You're right. I guess that simply means you didn't know how to spell "doesn't," "Wright's" and "don't" in your nonsensical comment, Lois.

[BobWildLoyalist]

You're right. I guess that simply means you didn't know how to spell "doesn't," "Wright's" and "don't" in your nonsensical comment, Lois.

Ahhh you're catching on! So you do know who Clark is. Very good young man!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Jay Wright's "dialed back" recruiting still consists a ton of of 4-star players mostly ranked 40 to 80, paired with a fairly routine five-star like Jalen Brunson or Jeremiah Robinson-Earl or Omari Spellman. 

And ironically five of Wright's six highest-rated recruits since 2000 were recruited after the supposed "Jay Wright" moment.
https://247sports.com/college/villanova/Sport/Basketball/AllTimeRecruits/.  In other words, he's still going after them.

He's got another 5-star Cam Whitmore signed for next year (to go along with #45 Mark Armstrong and #100 Brendan Hausen).  He's got two more offers out for five stars in 2023. 

I'll give you that he ADDED culture as a co-equal priority to go along with a strategy of pursuing highly-rated players. But clearly, he didn't stop recruiting high-rated players.

Compare Wright's recruiting this year's MU class of #148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross and unranked Ben Gold.

We've been over this.

Jay Wright has not recruited a single one and done since he made those comments. Not a one. No one has said he's only recruiting bums and avoiding talented players. That's a strawman that you've built. He's recruiting very talented players who are also cultural fits and also committed to playing multiple years at Nova.

[wadesworld]

We've been over this.

Jay Wright has not recruited a single one and done since he made those comments. Not a one. No one has said he's only recruiting bums and avoiding talented players. That's a strawman that you've built. He's recruiting very talented players who are also cultural fits and also committed to playing multiple years at Nova.

I mean, how many one and done players has Jay Wright ever had?  The only one I can think of is Omari Spellman, who was great for Villanova, for a team that...won the national championship?

So this idea that Jay got out of the "one and done game" because it "didn't fit his culture" and that's when he turned the corner just doesn't seem to add up at all.  People use Javon Quinnerly as the example of why Jay Wright got out of the "one and done game."  Javon Quinnerly is now in his 2nd season with Alabama and third season in college basketball.  So he's not even a one and done!

The last time Jay Wright won a national championship he had the only one and done he's ever had on his roster.

[Galway Eagle]

I mean, how many one and done players has Jay Wright ever had?  The only one I can think of is Omari Spellman, who was great for Villanova, for a team that...won the national championship?

So this idea that Jay got out of the "one and done game" because it "didn't fit his culture" and that's when he turned the corner just doesn't seem to add up at all.  People use Javon Quinnerly as the example of why Jay Wright got out of the "one and done game."  Javon Quinnerly is now in his 2nd season with Alabama and third season in college basketball.  So he's not even a one and done!

The last time Jay Wright won a national championship he had the only one and done he's ever had on his roster.

I thought Maalik Waynes was the player everyone agreed screwed things up? Him and someone else (Hilliard?) who apparently got into a big fight with Scottie Reynolds right before the 2010 NCAA tournament that blew up the locker room. This is what I heard from a Nova poster on Holyland a few years back.

Edit: still can't remember the other player but given HS rankings and class I think it was Cheek

[Uncle Rico]

I thought Maalik Waynes was the player everyone agreed screwed thongs up? Him and someone else (Hilliard?) who apparently got into a big fight with Scottie Reynolds right before the 2010 NCAA tournament that blew up the locker room. This is what I heard from a Nova poster on Holyland a few years back.

How did Jay Wright let that happen!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I mean, how many one and done players has Jay Wright ever had?  The only one I can think of is Omari Spellman, who was great for Villanova, for a team that...won the national championship?

So this idea that Jay got out of the "one and done game" because it "didn't fit his culture" and that's when he turned the corner just doesn't seem to add up at all.  People use Javon Quinnerly as the example of why Jay Wright got out of the "one and done game."  Javon Quinnerly is now in his 2nd season with Alabama and third season in college basketball.  So he's not even a one and done!

The last time Jay Wright won a national championship he had the only one and done he's ever had on his roster.

Omari Spellman wasn't a one and done. He was a second year freshman who was suspended his first year for eligibility issues. He spent two years at Villanova.

In 2009, Jay Wright brought in a recruiting class of 3 5-star players that was ranked 4th in the nation. At least two of those three viewed themselves as one and dones and when they didn't play enough to get drafted, they caused locker room issues that eventually led to the team cratering in that class' junior year. The two offending players left, Jay adjusted his strategy and he then built Nova into one of the two best programs of the past 10 years.

The Villanova blueprint is a bunch of a talented multi-year players who buy into Wright's culture. I don't know why people get so offended by this idea. This comes from the man himself, unless people think Wright is lying.

[brewcity77]

The Villanova blueprint is a bunch of a talented multi-year players who buy into Wright's culture. I don't know why people get so offended by this idea. This comes from the man himself, unless people think Wright is lying.

Which would be an odd belief, considering his actions and recruiting reinforce it.

[wadesworld]

Omari Spellman wasn't a one and done. He was a second year freshman who was suspended his first year for eligibility issues. He spent two years at Villanova.

In 2009, Jay Wright brought in a recruiting class of 3 5-star players that was ranked 4th in the nation. At least two of those three viewed themselves as one and dones and when they didn't play enough to get drafted, they caused locker room issues that eventually led to the team cratering in that class' junior year. The two offending players left, Jay adjusted his strategy and he then built Nova into one of the two best programs of the past 10 years.

The Villanova blueprint is a bunch of a talented multi-year players who buy into Wright's culture. I don't know why people get so offended by this idea. This comes from the man himself, unless people think Wright is lying.

I stand corrected.  So he's had 0 one and dones?  So he was never in the one and done game to begin with it seems.

If people want to avoid five stars that's cool I guess.  I don't think we'll ever become Villanova (see: 2 national titles in a decade) without recruiting five star players, though.  I'm guessing just about every team that has won a national title over the last decade has had a five star on their roster, with many of them having multiple.  So if we want to avoid those guys, we won't be turning into Nova.

[The Equalizer]

We've been over this.

Jay Wright has not recruited a single one and done since he made those comments. Not a one. No one has said he's only recruiting bums and avoiding talented players. That's a strawman that you've built. He's recruiting very talented players who are also cultural fits and also committed to playing multiple years at Nova.

1. I never used the term one-and-done. That's a strawman of YOUR creation. I  was careful to use the term "five-star". Some five-stars are one-and-done, some aren't. I've never said otherwise. 

2. How is it a strawman to accept as stated: "They prioritized culture over recruiting rankings. . . "?   What evidence is there that Villanova actually did this?    I'd have no objection to the statement that they "prioritized culture in addition to recruiting rankings..."  Because the facts show that Villanova continued to prioritize rankings--so much so that five of the six highest-ranked players since 2000 were signed after they prioritized "culture first." 

3. I don't see a valid claim of similarity between the clear decline in the average rank of Shaka's current recruiting (#148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross and unranked Ben Gold), and Jay Wright focusing on culture, but continuing to recruit and land highly-rated recruits (#20 5* Cam Whitmore  #45 Mark Armstrong and #100 Brendan Hausen). 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I stand corrected.  So he's had 0 one and dones?  So he was never in the one and done game to begin with it seems.

As I said, he recruited two players in the same class who fancied themselves one and dones even though they didn't end up being good enough. It ended up blowing up in his face. He adjusted and has built one of the best programs of the past 10 years.

It's not about whether a player is a one and done. It's about recruiting a player that makes it known during the recruitment process that his intent is to go one and done.

And to be clear, I have no issues with one and dones. There are many ways to skin a cat and one and dones are a perfectly fine way to get the job done. I trust Shaka to build his roster.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

1. I never used the term one-and-done. That's a strawman of YOUR creation. I  was careful to use the term "five-star". Some five-stars are one-and-done, some aren't. I've never said otherwise. 

I never said you said one and done. The original argument was that Wright prioritized players who would be at Nova for multiple years to learn their culture (i.e. not one and dones). You countered that building a strawman that people were saying that Wright didn't target highly rated prospects, which no one said. I was trying to bring you back to the original argument by showing you that you can recruit highly rated players AND have guys who stay multiple years to learn the culture.

2. How is it a strawman to accept as stated: "They prioritized culture over recruiting rankings. . . "?   What evidence is there that Villanova actually did this?    I'd have no objection to the statement that they "prioritized culture in addition to recruiting rankings..."  Because the facts show that Villanova continued to prioritize rankings--so much so that five of the six highest-ranked players since 2000 were signed after they prioritized "culture first." 

Because Jay Wright said so. Again, you can prioritize culture over recruiting rankings and still get highly ranked players. No one has said otherwise.

3. I don't see a valid claim of similarity between the clear decline in the average rank of Shaka's current recruiting (#148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross and unranked Ben Gold), and Jay Wright focusing on culture, but continuing to recruit and land highly-rated recruits (#20 5* Cam Whitmore  #45 Mark Armstrong and #100 Brendan Hausen). 

That may be because you are comparing Shaka's second class (and his first that he had a whole year to recruit) at Marquette to Wright's 13th class after his 2009 recruiting class. Wright didn't recruit another 5 star for 6 years after 2009. In that time, his highest rated prospect was #49 Daniel Ochefu, his only top 50 prospect in a 6 year span. As Wright had more success, he was able to get higher ranked recruits to buy into his culture and the results speak for themselves. I anticipate that if Shaka is successful, he will continue to improve the talent of incoming players each year. Though we will see how insta-transfers change the basketball landscape.

[The Equalizer]

The original argument was that Wright prioritized players who would be at Nova for multiple years to learn their culture (i.e. not one and dones). You countered that building a strawman that people were saying that Wright didn't target highly rated prospects, which no one said. I was trying to bring you back to the original argument by showing you that you can recruit highly rated players AND have guys who stay multiple years to learn the culture.

So, if I accept your interpretation here, then it follows that the intent of the post was to highlight the diametrically opposed approaches Jay Wright and Shaka Smart each took after "coming up short with elite recruits."

As you yourself say, Wright is evidence that "you can recruit highly rated players AND have guys who stay multiple years to learn the culture."   Wright stopped recuriting players like #21 Dominic Cheek and #23 Malik Waayns and started landing players like #22 Jalen Brunson or #16 Jeremiah Robinson-Earl or #20 Cam Whitmore or #20 Omari Spellman.  In additiion to numerous guys just outside the top 40, but still in the top 100.

Meanwhile, when Shaka "had a Jay Wright Moment " he went after "the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable."   Those players include #123 David Joplin, #133 Emarion Ellis, #148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross, #92 Stevie Mitchell and #163 Kam Jones, #204 Keeyan Iteerje, Unranked Ben Gold. 

[Galway Eagle]

So, if I accept your interpretation here, then it follows that the intent of the post was to highlight the diametrically opposed approaches Jay Wright and Shaka Smart each took after "coming up short with elite recruits."

As you yourself say, Wright is evidence that "you can recruit highly rated players AND have guys who stay multiple years to learn the culture."   Wright stopped recuriting players like #21 Dominic Cheek and #23 Malik Waayns and started landing players like #22 Jalen Brunson or #16 Jeremiah Robinson-Earl or #20 Cam Whitmore or #20 Omari Spellman.  In additiion to numerous guys just outside the top 40, but still in the top 100.

Meanwhile, when Shaka "had a Jay Wright Moment " he went after "the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable."   Those players include #123 David Joplin, #133 Emarion Ellis, #148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross, #92 Stevie Mitchell and #163 Kam Jones, #204 Keeyan Iteerje, Unranked Ben Gold.

What service are you using?

Oh nvm composite. I'm not sure that's the best way to go about it. It's like NET incorporating BPI. If you have a bad metric then composite isn't better it's worse.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So, if I accept your interpretation here, then it follows that the intent of the post was to highlight the diametrically opposed approaches Jay Wright and Shaka Smart each took after "coming up short with elite recruits."

As you yourself say, Wright is evidence that "you can recruit highly rated players AND have guys who stay multiple years to learn the culture."   Wright stopped recuriting players like #21 Dominic Cheek and #23 Malik Waayns and started landing players like #22 Jalen Brunson or #16 Jeremiah Robinson-Earl or #20 Cam Whitmore or #20 Omari Spellman.  In additiion to numerous guys just outside the top 40, but still in the top 100.

Meanwhile, when Shaka "had a Jay Wright Moment " he went after "the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable."   Those players include #123 David Joplin, #133 Emarion Ellis, #148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross, #92 Stevie Mitchell and #163 Kam Jones, #204 Keeyan Iteerje, Unranked Ben Gold.

Again, you are purposefully looking over the 6 year gap between 2009 and 2015 and comparing Shaka's second class to Wright's much later classes. Wright's classes in the 8 years following his 4th ranked 2009 class were ranked 41st, 22nd, 27th, 36th, 48th, 29th, 45th, and 28th. Shaka's first two classes have been ranked 20th and 57th (so far with an unranked international player who doesn't factor into the class ranking). You are cherry picking 4 recruits that were spread out over 13 classes...all of whom came over 6 years after 2009.

You also left off #11 Mouphtao Yarou from that 2009 recruiting class. And again, it's about recruiting guys who make it known that they are only planning on staying a year and aren't a fit culturally. Brunson, JRE, Whitmore, and Spellman don't match that.

Wright's highest rated class of all time was 2009, ranked 4th in the country. In the 8 years following, he didn't have a single class ranked in the top 20. He tried a year that was all about gathering 5-star talent despite them not matching his culture. It blew up in his face. He has told the world that after the 2009 class he shifted his focus from rankings to culture and the results support his assertion. Is your assertion that Wright is full of crap?

[Uncle Rico]

Again, you are purposefully looking over the 6 year gap between 2009 and 2015 and comparing Shaka's second class to Wright's much later classes. Wright's classes in the 8 years following his 4th ranked 2009 class were ranked 41st, 22nd, 27th, 36th, 48th, 29th, 45th, and 28th. Shaka's first two classes have been ranked 20th and 57th (so far with an unranked international player who doesn't factor into the class ranking). You are cherry picking 4 recruits that were spread out over 13 classes...all of whom came over 6 years after 2009.

You also left off #11 Mouphtao Yarou from that 2009 recruiting class. And again, it's about recruiting guys who make it known that they are only planning on staying a year and aren't a fit culturally. Brunson, JRE, Whitmore, and Spellman don't match that.

Wright's highest rated class of all time was 2009, ranked 4th in the country. In the 8 years following, he didn't have a single class ranked in the top 20. He tried a year that was all about gathering 5-star talent despite them not matching his culture. It blew up in his face. He has told the world that after the 2009 class he shifted his focus from rankings to culture and the results support his assertion. Is your assertion that Wright is full of crap?

My assertion would be Jay recruits a lot of kids that play in the NBA and that’s what Marquette needs if they want to be Villanova

[Galway Eagle]

My assertion would be Jay recruits a lot of kids that play in the NBA and that’s what Marquette needs if they want to be Villanova

How do they keep their eligibility after playing in the NBA?

[Dr. Blackheart]

Villanova aspires to be Marquette TBT. "We climax later"