MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MU82 on March 06, 2022, 01:03:05 PM
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A discussion started in the Big East Polls thread that didn't really belong there but that I thought was interesting enough to merit its own thread.
In know we've had similar topics like this before, but none very recently, at least not that I can remember since Shaka took the MU job.
I would be thrilled beyond belief if Shaka could turn MU into the next Villanova! We have just as many resources. Why not?
Lol come on.
BLM's reaction seemed a little too dismissive to me. Is it really that farfetched?
It wasn't all that long ago that the programs at Nova and MU were basically at the same level. It doesn't even take a very big leap to argue that our program was ahead of theirs less than a decade ago.
In 2007, Nova finished 9th in the Big East -- 3 spots behind Marquette. In 2008, they were 8th, two spots behind MU. In 2009, they finished 4th, one spot ahead of MU; they made a run to the Final Four as a 3 seed and were crushed by UNC; it was similar to our FF run in 2003. In 2010, they finished 4th, one spot ahead of MU; In 2011, they finished in a tie for 9th with us and UConn; in 2012, they finished 13th with a losing record, 11 spots behind Marquette. In 2013, they finished 7th, 6 spots behind co-champion Marquette.
Between 2001-02, Jay Wright's first season, and 2012-13, his 12th season, Nova:
++ Got to the Final Four once (2009).
++ Got to the Elite Eight once (2006).
++ Got to the Sweet 16 twice (2005, 2008).
++ Got to the Round of 32 once (2010).
++ Lost in the first round 3 times (2007, 2011, 2013).
++ Missed the tournament 4 times (2002, 2003, 2004, 2012).
++ Won 1 Big East regular-season title (2006).
That's remarkably similar to Marquette's accomplishments under Crean and Buzz during that span -- 1 FF, 1 EE, 2 S16s, 1 Big East title, to go with a bunch of first- and 2nd-round losses.
In 2013, if you had asked which program was on a better trajectory, I think most objective observers would have picked Marquette -- coming off a S16-S16-E8 run and a BE title vs. Nova, coming off 2 first-round losses and a 13th-place finish. There even were murmurs among Nova's fan base that maybe Wright wasn't up to the task.
After that, we had the Buzz fiasco and the Wojo Error; Wright, meanwhile, found the right combination of athletes, established the right culture, and started winning big. (Even that took a little time, as disappointing early-round exits following BE titles in 2014 and 2015 before they won the 2016 national championship and officially became "NOVA!")
So is it that outrageous to think that Marquette could find similar success? We do have great resources, a great tradition, a great arena, and now a popular and respected coach.
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Obviously the two natties will be extremely hard to replicate any time soon.
But tourney year in and year out? Success in the tourney more often than not? High seeds in the tourney regular? Routinely at the top as the consistent challenge to Nova in the BE??
I honestly do not see why not.
We definitely under Shaka should be the type of program that can win a BE title over Nova any given year. We obviously will never completely toss them to the side but can the BE start to look more like a 5 year window of
Nova two BE titles, MU two BE, someone else? Yes.
Honestly only Uconn and maybe Gtown(if they ever find a coach) should be able to routinely contend.
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That's a pretty lofty goal. Unlikely but not impossible, IMO.
What I do think is that is Shaka can continue to build the program, find some consistent success in March, and is happy enough to make Marquette his long-term home we could really see the program reach heights we haven't seen in a long time. A lot of "if's" there but i think it's realistic.
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Yes but every program in the big east is likely thinking the same thing
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Many programs in the country think they can achieve this level of success.
Marquette commits the resources, but at the end of the day, you have to have THAT Coach who can do it and wants to stay.
Crean and Buzz had a ton of success and maybe they could have done it had they not left. We shall see if Shaka can do it.
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A discussion started in the Big East Polls thread that didn't really belong there but that I thought was interesting enough to merit its own thread.
In know we've had similar topics like this before, but none very recently, at least not that I can remember since Shaka took the MU job.
BLM's reaction seemed a little too dismissive to me. Is it really that farfetched?
It wasn't all that long ago that the programs at Nova and MU were basically at the same level. It doesn't even take a very big leap to argue that our program was ahead of theirs less than a decade ago.
In 2007, Nova finished 9th in the Big East -- 3 spots behind Marquette. In 2008, they were 8th, two spots behind MU. In 2009, they finished 4th, one spot ahead of MU; they made a run to the Final Four as a 3 seed and were crushed by UNC; it was similar to our FF run in 2003. In 2010, they finished 4th, one spot ahead of MU; In 2011, they finished in a tie for 9th with us and UConn; in 2012, they finished 13th with a losing record, 11 spots behind Marquette. In 2013, they finished 7th, 6 spots behind co-champion Marquette.
Between 2001-02, Jay Wright's first season, and 2012-13, his 12th season, Nova:
++ Got to the Final Four once (2009).
++ Got to the Elite Eight once (2006).
++ Got to the Sweet 16 twice (2005, 2008).
++ Got to the Round of 32 once (2010).
++ Lost in the first round 3 times (2007, 2011, 2013).
++ Missed the tournament 4 times (2002, 2003, 2004, 2012).
++ Won 1 Big East regular-season title (2006).
That's remarkably similar to Marquette's accomplishments under Crean and Buzz during that span -- 1 FF, 1 EE, 2 S16s, 1 Big East title, to go with a bunch of first- and 2nd-round losses.
In 2013, if you had asked which program was on a better trajectory, I think most objective observers would have picked Marquette -- coming off a S16-S16-E8 run and a BE title vs. Nova, coming off 2 first-round losses and a 13th-place finish. There even were murmurs among Nova's fan base that maybe Wright wasn't up to the task.
After that, we had the Buzz fiasco and the Wojo Error; Wright, meanwhile, found the right combination of athletes, established the right culture, and started winning big. (Even that took a little time, as disappointing early-round exits following BE titles in 2014 and 2015 before they won the 2016 national championship and officially became "NOVA!")
So is it that outrageous to think that Marquette could find similar success? We do have great resources, a great tradition, a great arena, and now a popular and respected coach.
I know you know where I stand. Emphatically YES!!
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Right now, next year could be a down year as I do not see a go to scorer if Lewis leaves. Morsell and Kurth as well.
Mainly there defense. It will be interesting the next month about bringing in new players with experience as Shaka has brought an exciting style of play to MU.
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Yes, very far fetched, to put it lightly.
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Yes, very far fetched, to put it lightly.
Well, being outstanding year after year is always a challenge for any program. Either you're trying to get there, or you're trying to stay there.
But ...
Was it farfetched that Villanova would go from 13th place in the Big East in 2012 (and many other disappointing finishes in the years around that) to what they have become a decade later?
Is it farfetched that Shaka Smart could be our Jay Wright?
Maybe it is ... though somebody's gonna rise up and challenge them. Not sure why that can't be us.
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No.
But I’ll hit take dancing most every year and I think Shaka can do that. Once you get there, you never know.
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Conference will have some turnover next year at the top, so no reason MU can not be in the Top 5 if they can pick up a couple of transfers.
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I’d rather be the next UConn
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We beat Villanova twice and lost to Creighton twice - why would we not set our sights on being the next Creighton?
I’d rather be the next UConn
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If we're looking local, it'd be nice if MU could be the next UW.
19 consecutive NCAA tournaments. In the last decade, Badger fans have watched their team play a whopping 28 games, winning 18 of them.
Man, I hate them so much.
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Considering how close Villanova was to not being the next Villanova, yes, we certainly could. After 2012, the 9-seed followed by losing record despite Jay's best on paper recruiting had some fans thinking it was time to move on. It was Jay's second losing season at Villanova. No Marquette coach since before the days of Al survived two losing seasons, even with a gap in between like Wojo or Wright had. They stuck with him, he way overachieved in 2013-14 and kept it up since.
The odds of us becoming Villanova under Shaka are probably about as good as the odds Nova had of becoming Villanova under Jay Wright when the league reformed.
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Would love to be wrong. But I’d put my life savings and take out multiple loans and put it all on MU never going a consecutive decade of being the best college basketball program in the country.
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Being the next Villanova is and has been MU's basketball goal for the past 7-8 years or so. Although it will take some luck, there's no reason we can't get there. We have the resources. the commitment from the higher-ups, the best basketball arena in the world for our home games, and now, finally, it looks like we may have a coach who has the recruiting and coaching chops and the potential desire to make this his last job.
I'm not betting the farm that we get there, but it's not an unrealistic goal.
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The short answer is yes. Let's revisit this near the end of next season. I think we are getting way too far ahead of ourselves, and it will take at least three seasons before we can see if we are on track to become the next Villanova.
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Considering how close Villanova was to not being the next Villanova, yes, we certainly could. After 2012, the 9-seed followed by losing record despite Jay's best on paper recruiting had some fans thinking it was time to move on. It was Jay's second losing season at Villanova. No Marquette coach since before the days of Al survived two losing seasons, even with a gap in between like Wojo or Wright had. They stuck with him, he way overachieved in 2013-14 and kept it up since.
The odds of us becoming Villanova under Shaka are probably about as good as the odds Nova had of becoming Villanova under Jay Wright when the league reformed.
Excellent pot, especially your last paragraph. There is not a single honest basketball observer who would have looked at Nova in 2012 and said, "You know, within a few years, that's gonna be the best program in the Big East and in the argument for best in America."
Would love to be wrong. But I’d put my life savings and take out multiple loans and put it all on MU never going a consecutive decade of being the best college basketball program in the country.
Nobody is saying the odds favor us being the best anything. But again, in 2012 you almost surely would have put your life savings against Nova being the best basketball program in the country. All I'm saying is that it's worth striving for.
The short answer is yes. Let's revisit this near the end of next season. I think we are getting way too far ahead of ourselves, and it will take at least three seasons before we can see if we are on track to become the next Villanova.
I'm not getting ahead of anything. It's a fan site. We're discussing something. We have no influence on anything.
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Excellent pot, especially your last paragraph. There is not a single honest basketball observer who would have looked at Nova in 2012 and said, "You know, within a few years, that's gonna be the best program in the Big East and in the argument for best in America."
Nobody is saying the odds favor us being the best anything. But again, in 2012 you almost surely would have put your life savings against Nova being the best basketball program in the country. All I'm saying is that it's worth striving for.
I'm not getting ahead of anything. It's a fan site. We're discussing something. We have no influence on anything.
Can I have some?
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Excellent pot, especially your last paragraph. There is not a single honest basketball observer who would have looked at Nova in 2012 and said, "You know, within a few years, that's gonna be the best program in the Big East and in the argument for best in America."
Nobody is saying the odds favor us being the best anything. But again, in 2012 you almost surely would have put your life savings against Nova being the best basketball program in the country. All I'm saying is that it's worth striving for.
I'm not getting ahead of anything. It's a fan site. We're discussing something. We have no influence on anything.
What? You gotta be kidding me! If that's true, well...it ruins everything!
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Can I have some?
Darn fingers. They don't work well when I'm high.
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Darn fingers. They don't work well when I'm high.
;D
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With the right coach, yes. Marquette’s investment in basketball is tremendous. The resources are there. So, yes. With the right coach Marquette can do it. And Shaka might just be the right coach.
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Yes. MU can do it. It’s all coaching dependent. The rabid fan base is there. The resources are there. The conference is there. The TV deal is there and should continue to be there. The Big East tournament is there at MSG.
MU checks all the boxes. If we have the right coach it can happen.
Buzz could have done it if he stayed. Hell, if Brad Stevens had stayed at Butler it could have happened for them.
Get the right coach long term and Voila we’re Villanova.
Hopefully Shaka is that coach. We will find out.
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Right now, next year could be a down year as I do not see a go to scorer if Lewis leaves. Morsell and Kurth as well.
Mainly there defense. It will be interesting the next month about bringing in new players with experience as Shaka has brought an exciting style of play to MU.
I thought this year would be a down year.
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I think it will be difficult for any program to be consistently good to contend for the National Championship. Consistently good enough to make the tournament, sure; but to actually win the title no. I say this because college ball is not the same as it was just a few years ago. With the instant transfers and players who have just one good season leaving to go pro (NBA. G-league, Europe) it will be tough to build a cohesive team year in and year out. I might be wrong. Just have to asasee how all this plays out.
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Considering how close Villanova was to not being the next Villanova, yes, we certainly could. After 2012, the 9-seed followed by losing record despite Jay's best on paper recruiting had some fans thinking it was time to move on. It was Jay's second losing season at Villanova. No Marquette coach since before the days of Al survived two losing seasons, even with a gap in between like Wojo or Wright had. They stuck with him, he way overachieved in 2013-14 and kept it up since.
The odds of us becoming Villanova under Shaka are probably about as good as the odds Nova had of becoming Villanova under Jay Wright when the league reformed.
go back to Wright’s first 4 seasons at Nova. Fairly weak. But, he got it going and with 2012 being the exception, they’ve been stellar. Imagine this reinvented BE without them? Somewhat nondescript, imo.
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go back to Wright’s first 4 seasons at Nova. Fairly weak. But, he got it going and with 2012 being the exception, they’ve been stellar. Imagine this reinvented BE without them? Somewhat nondescript, imo.
Yep all good conferences need an alpha dog/dogs to carry the flag. Hopefully a couple others in the Big East can step up and be more dominant on the national stage. UConn is a definite possibility. Marquette with Shaka? Hope so. Georgetown would be nice. St. John’s and DePaul would be nice as well. The big market teams need to step up.
This conference has the bones to not be nondescript. Some of the previously successful teams just need to step up.
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go back to Wright’s first 4 seasons at Nova. Fairly weak. But, he got it going and with 2012 being the exception, they’ve been stellar. Imagine this reinvented BE without them? Somewhat nondescript, imo.
He did. I'm not trying to take anything away from Jay. He's great, one of the best in the business. But there was some thought that he might have peaked from 2005-2009 when the program really took off. The early 2010 loss, the 9/miss/9 run from 11-13, it looked like a program that wasn't going to be elite.
I'm glad 'Nova stuck with him and the league certainly needed it, particularly considering how far Marquette and Georgetown, who were supposed to be the big boys of the new conference, fell off almost immediately. But their rise was still improbable and unexpected. No one in 2012 would've imagined Villanova would win 2 of the next 6 NCAA titles.
I'm not saying we will get there, but right now programs like Villanova, Gonzaga, and Baylor are the gold standards. Programs like Auburn, Houston, and Texas Tech have all been to recent Final Fours and look poised to break through to that level. No one would've expected in 2013 we would be looking up to those programs. We live in an era where the right leadership can take you from good to elite, even obscure to elite, in a decade. If we have the right leader, we'll get there. Early returns are decent.
If we can become one of the best teams in this conference, then we can become the next Villanova because someone in this league will almost always be in that conversation. A lot will depend on the rest of the league. Do Cooley and/or Willard move on? Those are tough places to build programs if those guys go. Will Xavier, Butler, and Georgetown get their next hires right? How long will McDermott (57) and Jay (60) stick around?
It might take 10-15 years, but I think Marquette and UConn are the two best positioned to be the Big East elites after Jay leaves. Obviously Villanova will have an opportunity to stay in that conversation, and others can get there if they get the right guys in place, but I don't think it's unreasonable to hope we get there. We have the resources and institutional support, as long as we get the leadership right, there's no reason we can't do it.
But it requires patience, because it's highly unlikely it happens in the next 2-3 years.
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Remember that Nova has one huge advantage over MU - geography. The ability to recruit from NY, NJ, Baltimore, Wash DC metro area, Phila metro area, etc gives Nova a huge advantage. Getting Justin Lewis out of Baltimore to come to MU is something that isn't going to happen very often. Yes, Nova has competition from a lot of schools for players in their area, but there are also a ton of very good players. MU is going to have to figure out how to crack the Chicago market and St. Louis as well.
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Remember that Nova has one huge advantage over MU - geography. The ability to recruit from NY, NJ, Baltimore, Wash DC metro area, Phila metro area, etc gives Nova a huge advantage. Getting Justin Lewis out of Baltimore to come to MU is something that isn't going to happen very often. Yes, Nova has competition from a lot of schools for players in their area, but there are also a ton of very good players. MU is going to have to figure out how to crack the Chicago market and St. Louis as well.
I'm not sure I agree. At least in the sense that we can recruit that well. Ochefu, Arcidiacono, Hart, Jenkins, Bridges, and Booth may have been East Coasters forming the foundation of that first title team, but they were all four-star recruits outside the top-40. The only 5-star was Jalen Brunson, from Chicago, and even he was at the lower end of the five-star list (#22 per 247). They won not because of the big recruiting battles but rather because they recruited the right kind of guys. They prioritized culture over recruiting rankings and got the kind of guys that Marquette has been able to get for at least the last 20 years.
Honestly, it's one of the first things that really convinced me after Shaka was hired. The "all culture for two years" is the kind of focus it takes to win big. I also like that Shaka somewhat had his Jay Wright moment of coming up short with elite recruits at Texas. It takes the right leader and right recruits, but Tyler Kolek, O-Max, Kam Jones, David Joplin, Stevie Mitchell, Sean Jones, those look like the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable.
Bo Ryan made Wisconsin elite by getting the right three and four stars, mostly from this area. Jay Wright made Villanova elite the same way, again mostly in his area. You don't need a recruiting hotbed or elite recruiting rankings, you need to build a culture with the right guys and then keep getting guys that fit the culture regardless of recruiting rankings. That feels realistic and achievable.
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I'm not sure I agree. At least in the sense that we can recruit that well. Ochefu, Arcidiacono, Hart, Jenkins, Bridges, and Booth may have been East Coasters forming the foundation of that first title team, but they were all four-star recruits outside the top-40. The only 5-star was Jalen Brunson, from Chicago, and even he was at the lower end of the five-star list (#22 per 247). They won not because of the big recruiting battles but rather because they recruited the right kind of guys. They prioritized culture over recruiting rankings and got the kind of guys that Marquette has been able to get for at least the last 20 years.
Honestly, it's one of the first things that really convinced me after Shaka was hired. The "all culture for two years" is the kind of focus it takes to win big. I also like that Shaka somewhat had his Jay Wright moment of coming up short with elite recruits at Texas. It takes the right leader and right recruits, but Tyler Kolek, O-Max, Kam Jones, David Joplin, Stevie Mitchell, Sean Jones, those look like the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable.
Bo Ryan made Wisconsin elite by getting the right three and four stars, mostly from this area. Jay Wright made Villanova elite the same way, again mostly in his area. You don't need a recruiting hotbed or elite recruiting rankings, you need to build a culture with the right guys and then keep getting guys that fit the culture regardless of recruiting rankings. That feels realistic and achievable.
This. All culture the first 2 years is in the same vein of how Wright runs that program. You go for fit and mentality first and then try and supplement with big talent when it makes sense (brunson was a godsend of a fit/talent combo--played with a chip on his shoulder, fit their culture to a T, and oozed talent)
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I'm not sure I agree. At least in the sense that we can recruit that well. Ochefu, Arcidiacono, Hart, Jenkins, Bridges, and Booth may have been East Coasters forming the foundation of that first title team, but they were all four-star recruits outside the top-40. The only 5-star was Jalen Brunson, from Chicago, and even he was at the lower end of the five-star list (#22 per 247). They won not because of the big recruiting battles but rather because they recruited the right kind of guys. They prioritized culture over recruiting rankings and got the kind of guys that Marquette has been able to get for at least the last 20 years.
Honestly, it's one of the first things that really convinced me after Shaka was hired. The "all culture for two years" is the kind of focus it takes to win big. I also like that Shaka somewhat had his Jay Wright moment of coming up short with elite recruits at Texas. It takes the right leader and right recruits, but Tyler Kolek, O-Max, Kam Jones, David Joplin, Stevie Mitchell, Sean Jones, those look like the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable.
Bo Ryan made Wisconsin elite by getting the right three and four stars, mostly from this area. Jay Wright made Villanova elite the same way, again mostly in his area. You don't need a recruiting hotbed or elite recruiting rankings, you need to build a culture with the right guys and then keep getting guys that fit the culture regardless of recruiting rankings. That feels realistic and achievable.
what’s great about college basketball is that it doesn’t necessarily take long to reach the pinnacle. Two top shelf stars, with proper role players, and a big season can be had. The challenge is maintaining that level on a year-in year-out basis, which Jay has done.
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I would not be as excited about the program if I did not think MU could be in the Nova type program conversation. Everything is in place for MU to make great strides over the next 3-4 years and my expectations are for MU is to be considered an elite program. Reaching Nova status is high bar but there are no excuses on why we cannot chase that dream.
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what’s great about college basketball is that it doesn’t necessarily take long to reach the pinnacle. Two top shelf stars, with proper role players, and a big season can be had. The challenge is maintaining that level on a year-in year-out basis, which Jay has done.
Agreed. That's why I think the "only culture two years" is such a good plan. You get young guys in to build the foundation and make sure everyone knows the program goals and standards. Then by the time you start bringing in bigger recruiting targets, your young guys are now juniors and seniors that will make sure the newcomers, no matter how talented, know the expectation. It's also why I think Darryl was such a big building block. He shows not only how defense is the cornerstone, how a good defender calls out assignments and leads on that end, but also his offensive emergence from a guy that had never scored 20 to one of the offensive leaders shows all the young guys an example that allows Kolek, Kam, Ellis, Stevie, and everyone else here the idea that they could be the next Morsell if they put the work in.
It's easy to get caught up in the moment, I know I do more often than I probably should. The 7-game winning streak and highs of January made it look like we could put together a deep run this year and it sucks when you fall off that. But in terms of going forward, I feel so much better about the program than I did when Shaka was hired (and I loved the hire) because we're seeing the blueprint in action and you can envision how it will unfold in the coming years, especially if we win a game or two in the NCAAs this year or next.
Another thing worth looking at is the thread from Paint Touches on Twitter today. Marquette had the highest rate of usage for freshmen and sophomores in the league (sorry, can't link it where I am). We are currently 46 spots ahead of where kenpom had us in the preseason. We're dancing when the general consensus was that the NIT would be overachieving.
Here's the thing...Shaka had Texas as a top-10 team all of last year and a 3-seed in the NCAAs. I think he might have been thisclose to breaking through in Austin, but the combination of Abilene Christian with what looked like a trend allowed us to come in and snatch him up. Think less about Marquette and more about Shaka. Might Shaka have already been on the verge of becoming the next Jay Wright? After some early slip-ups with big recruits, he was running his program with mostly juniors and seniors. He sprinkled in a couple talented underclassmen. And had a 46% free throw shooter not sunk two FTs at the buzzer, it might have been Shaka and not Mick Cronin that came out of the East (Not sure UCLA would've had as easy a time with the Longhorns as they did with a physically overmatched ACU team).
But Abilene Christian was the bump in the road. Instead of a shot at the Final Four, Shaka had to take a step back and reset at a new job. So he gets set back 2-3 years and instead of Texas getting where he wanted them, he does it here. It might be less about Marquette becoming the next Villanova and more about Shaka Smart becoming the next Jay Wright and Marquette just happening to be the beneficiary.
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Short answer. No probably not. I think the rest of the league will be too good to allow this to happen. Nova had the perfect storm around them to achieve the run they had.
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Short answer. No probably not. I think the rest of the league will be too good to allow this to happen. Nova had the perfect storm around them to achieve the run they had.
The number of Big East championships yes. NCAA championships not necessarily. Those teams were national title good no matter what conference they were in. I’ll admit their seed may have been slightly lower if they had 1-2 more losses in conference with more elite competition at the top.
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Here's the thing...Shaka had Texas as a top-10 team all of last year and a 3-seed in the NCAAs. I think he might have been thisclose to breaking through in Austin, but the combination of Abilene Christian with what looked like a trend allowed us to come in and snatch him up. Think less about Marquette and more about Shaka. Might Shaka have already been on the verge of becoming the next Jay Wright? After some early slip-ups with big recruits, he was running his program with mostly juniors and seniors. He sprinkled in a couple talented underclassmen. And had a 46% free throw shooter not sunk two FTs at the buzzer, it might have been Shaka and not Mick Cronin that came out of the East (Not sure UCLA would've had as easy a time with the Longhorns as they did with a physically overmatched ACU team).
But Abilene Christian was the bump in the road. Instead of a shot at the Final Four, Shaka had to take a step back and reset at a new job. So he gets set back 2-3 years and instead of Texas getting where he wanted them, he does it here. It might be less about Marquette becoming the next Villanova and more about Shaka Smart becoming the next Jay Wright and Marquette just happening to be the beneficiary.
I love this angle.
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Lets not lose sight of the next game, Creighton on Thursday. Success comes from creating a repeatable process and having the discipline to repeat that process over and over and over..
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Agreed. That's why I think the "only culture two years" is such a good plan. You get young guys in to build the foundation and make sure everyone knows the program goals and standards. Then by the time you start bringing in bigger recruiting targets, your young guys are now juniors and seniors that will make sure the newcomers, no matter how talented, know the expectation. It's also why I think Darryl was such a big building block. He shows not only how defense is the cornerstone, how a good defender calls out assignments and leads on that end, but also his offensive emergence from a guy that had never scored 20 to one of the offensive leaders shows all the young guys an example that allows Kolek, Kam, Ellis, Stevie, and everyone else here the idea that they could be the next Morsell if they put the work in.
It's easy to get caught up in the moment, I know I do more often than I probably should. The 7-game winning streak and highs of January made it look like we could put together a deep run this year and it sucks when you fall off that. But in terms of going forward, I feel so much better about the program than I did when Shaka was hired (and I loved the hire) because we're seeing the blueprint in action and you can envision how it will unfold in the coming years, especially if we win a game or two in the NCAAs this year or next.
Another thing worth looking at is the thread from Paint Touches on Twitter today. Marquette had the highest rate of usage for freshmen and sophomores in the league (sorry, can't link it where I am). We are currently 46 spots ahead of where kenpom had us in the preseason. We're dancing when the general consensus was that the NIT would be overachieving.
Here's the thing...Shaka had Texas as a top-10 team all of last year and a 3-seed in the NCAAs. I think he might have been thisclose to breaking through in Austin, but the combination of Abilene Christian with what looked like a trend allowed us to come in and snatch him up. Think less about Marquette and more about Shaka. Might Shaka have already been on the verge of becoming the next Jay Wright? After some early slip-ups with big recruits, he was running his program with mostly juniors and seniors. He sprinkled in a couple talented underclassmen. And had a 46% free throw shooter not sunk two FTs at the buzzer, it might have been Shaka and not Mick Cronin that came out of the East (Not sure UCLA would've had as easy a time with the Longhorns as they did with a physically overmatched ACU team).
But Abilene Christian was the bump in the road. Instead of a shot at the Final Four, Shaka had to take a step back and reset at a new job. So he gets set back 2-3 years and instead of Texas getting where he wanted them, he does it here. It might be less about Marquette becoming the next Villanova and more about Shaka Smart becoming the next Jay Wright and Marquette just happening to be the beneficiary.
Several great posts in this thread, brewski.
Very excited about the future of our program ... and I'm not done thinking optimistically about this season yet!
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If Shaka is still here in 10 years, we have a shot at it in years 11-15
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Lets not lose sight of the next game, Creighton on Thursday. Success comes from creating a repeatable process and having the discipline to repeat that process over and over and over..
What does this even mean?
Is it your contention that if a bunch of fans discuss this topic on the interwebs, it somehow will hurt the team's preparation for Creighton?
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Why not the next UCLA of the mid 60s to mid 70s?
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What does this even mean?
Is it your contention that if a bunch of fans discuss this topic on the interwebs, it somehow will hurt the team's preparation for Creighton?
You serious, Clark? It means JO'ing this topic doesnt mean anything. Recruit, coach, win, repeat. Jay Wrights stats between 2004 and 2007 dont mean anything, Shake must build and you must attend games because you're a fan. Does that make sense MU Eighty two?
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Agreed. That's why I think the "only culture two years" is such a good plan. You get young guys in to build the foundation and make sure everyone knows the program goals and standards. Then by the time you start bringing in bigger recruiting targets, your young guys are now juniors and seniors that will make sure the newcomers, no matter how talented, know the expectation. It's also why I think Darryl was such a big building block. He shows not only how defense is the cornerstone, how a good defender calls out assignments and leads on that end, but also his offensive emergence from a guy that had never scored 20 to one of the offensive leaders shows all the young guys an example that allows Kolek, Kam, Ellis, Stevie, and everyone else here the idea that they could be the next Morsell if they put the work in.
It's easy to get caught up in the moment, I know I do more often than I probably should. The 7-game winning streak and highs of January made it look like we could put together a deep run this year and it sucks when you fall off that. But in terms of going forward, I feel so much better about the program than I did when Shaka was hired (and I loved the hire) because we're seeing the blueprint in action and you can envision how it will unfold in the coming years, especially if we win a game or two in the NCAAs this year or next.
Another thing worth looking at is the thread from Paint Touches on Twitter today. Marquette had the highest rate of usage for freshmen and sophomores in the league (sorry, can't link it where I am). We are currently 46 spots ahead of where kenpom had us in the preseason. We're dancing when the general consensus was that the NIT would be overachieving.
Here's the thing...Shaka had Texas as a top-10 team all of last year and a 3-seed in the NCAAs. I think he might have been thisclose to breaking through in Austin, but the combination of Abilene Christian with what looked like a trend allowed us to come in and snatch him up. Think less about Marquette and more about Shaka. Might Shaka have already been on the verge of becoming the next Jay Wright? After some early slip-ups with big recruits, he was running his program with mostly juniors and seniors. He sprinkled in a couple talented underclassmen. And had a 46% free throw shooter not sunk two FTs at the buzzer, it might have been Shaka and not Mick Cronin that came out of the East (Not sure UCLA would've had as easy a time with the Longhorns as they did with a physically overmatched ACU team).
But Abilene Christian was the bump in the road. Instead of a shot at the Final Four, Shaka had to take a step back and reset at a new job. So he gets set back 2-3 years and instead of Texas getting where he wanted them, he does it here. It might be less about Marquette becoming the next Villanova and more about Shaka Smart becoming the next Jay Wright and Marquette just happening to be the beneficiary.
very solid!
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Why not the next UCLA of the mid 60s to mid 70s?
Because that will never happen again.
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Absolutely we should take over from Nova.
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Absolutely we should take over from Nova.
Why?
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Better resources, great history, coaching under Shaka, great fan base, and better lovers of the program, most right here on Scoop.
Why not?
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Better resources, great history, coaching under Shaka, great fan base, and better lovers of the program, most right here on Scoop.
Why not?
Villanova has better history and a better program. How much better are Marquette’s resources. Please list
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You serious, Clark? It means JO'ing this topic doesnt mean anything. Recruit, coach, win, repeat. Jay Wrights stats between 2004 and 2007 dont mean anything, Shake must build and you must attend games because you're a fan. Does that make sense MU Eighty two?
Nope.
Who's Clark? Who's Shake? What's JO'ing? Do you know what an apostrophe is? What did I or anybody else say that suggests "Recruit, coach, win, repeat" isn't important?
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Villanova has better history and a better program. How much better are Marquette’s resources. Please list
Disagree with those opinions
What about their early years under Wright?
Both programs have had ups and downs. If you feel that MU cannot take over for Villanova, go over to their board and become their fan butt boy
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Disagree with those opinions
What about their early years under Wright?
Both programs have had ups and downs. If you feel that MU cannot take over for Villanova, go over to their board and become their fan butt boy
Butt boy? 🤔
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I'm not sure I agree. At least in the sense that we can recruit that well. Ochefu, Arcidiacono, Hart, Jenkins, Bridges, and Booth may have been East Coasters forming the foundation of that first title team, but they were all four-star recruits outside the top-40. The only 5-star was Jalen Brunson, from Chicago, and even he was at the lower end of the five-star list (#22 per 247). They won not because of the big recruiting battles but rather because they recruited the right kind of guys. They prioritized culture over recruiting rankings and got the kind of guys that Marquette has been able to get for at least the last 20 years.
Honestly, it's one of the first things that really convinced me after Shaka was hired. The "all culture for two years" is the kind of focus it takes to win big. I also like that Shaka somewhat had his Jay Wright moment of coming up short with elite recruits at Texas. It takes the right leader and right recruits, but Tyler Kolek, O-Max, Kam Jones, David Joplin, Stevie Mitchell, Sean Jones, those look like the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable.
Jay Wright's "dialed back" recruiting still consists a ton of of 4-star players mostly ranked 40 to 80, paired with a fairly routine five-star like Jalen Brunson or Jeremiah Robinson-Earl or Omari Spellman.
And ironically five of Wright's six highest-rated recruits since 2000 were recruited after the supposed "Jay Wright" moment.
https://247sports.com/college/villanova/Sport/Basketball/AllTimeRecruits/ (https://247sports.com/college/villanova/Sport/Basketball/AllTimeRecruits/). In other words, he's still going after them.
He's got another 5-star Cam Whitmore signed for next year (to go along with #45 Mark Armstrong and #100 Brendan Hausen). He's got two more offers out for five stars in 2023.
I'll give you that he ADDED culture as a co-equal priority to go along with a strategy of pursuing highly-rated players. But clearly, he didn't stop recruiting high-rated players.
Compare Wright's recruiting this year's MU class of #148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross and unranked Ben Gold.
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Nope.
Who's Clark? Who's Shake? What's JO'ing? Do you know what an apostrophe is? What did I or anybody else say that suggests "Recruit, coach, win, repeat" isn't important?
There's an apostrophe in JO'ing, Clark.
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Nope.
Who's Clark? Who's Shake? What's JO'ing? Do you know what an apostrophe is? What did I or anybody else say that suggests "Recruit, coach, win, repeat" isn't important?
If you don't get the "Clark" reference, don't bother asking, you won't get it.
Irwin Fletcher certainly gets it.
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There's an apostrophe in JO'ing, Clark.
You're right. I guess that simply means you didn't know how to spell "doesn't," "Wright's" and "don't" in your nonsensical comment, Lois.
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You're right. I guess that simply means you didn't know how to spell "doesn't," "Wright's" and "don't" in your nonsensical comment, Lois.
Ahhh you're catching on! So you do know who Clark is. Very good young man!
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Jay Wright's "dialed back" recruiting still consists a ton of of 4-star players mostly ranked 40 to 80, paired with a fairly routine five-star like Jalen Brunson or Jeremiah Robinson-Earl or Omari Spellman.
And ironically five of Wright's six highest-rated recruits since 2000 were recruited after the supposed "Jay Wright" moment.
https://247sports.com/college/villanova/Sport/Basketball/AllTimeRecruits/ (https://247sports.com/college/villanova/Sport/Basketball/AllTimeRecruits/). In other words, he's still going after them.
He's got another 5-star Cam Whitmore signed for next year (to go along with #45 Mark Armstrong and #100 Brendan Hausen). He's got two more offers out for five stars in 2023.
I'll give you that he ADDED culture as a co-equal priority to go along with a strategy of pursuing highly-rated players. But clearly, he didn't stop recruiting high-rated players.
Compare Wright's recruiting this year's MU class of #148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross and unranked Ben Gold.
We've been over this.
Jay Wright has not recruited a single one and done since he made those comments. Not a one. No one has said he's only recruiting bums and avoiding talented players. That's a strawman that you've built. He's recruiting very talented players who are also cultural fits and also committed to playing multiple years at Nova.
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We've been over this.
Jay Wright has not recruited a single one and done since he made those comments. Not a one. No one has said he's only recruiting bums and avoiding talented players. That's a strawman that you've built. He's recruiting very talented players who are also cultural fits and also committed to playing multiple years at Nova.
I mean, how many one and done players has Jay Wright ever had? The only one I can think of is Omari Spellman, who was great for Villanova, for a team that...won the national championship?
So this idea that Jay got out of the "one and done game" because it "didn't fit his culture" and that's when he turned the corner just doesn't seem to add up at all. People use Javon Quinnerly as the example of why Jay Wright got out of the "one and done game." Javon Quinnerly is now in his 2nd season with Alabama and third season in college basketball. So he's not even a one and done!
The last time Jay Wright won a national championship he had the only one and done he's ever had on his roster.
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I mean, how many one and done players has Jay Wright ever had? The only one I can think of is Omari Spellman, who was great for Villanova, for a team that...won the national championship?
So this idea that Jay got out of the "one and done game" because it "didn't fit his culture" and that's when he turned the corner just doesn't seem to add up at all. People use Javon Quinnerly as the example of why Jay Wright got out of the "one and done game." Javon Quinnerly is now in his 2nd season with Alabama and third season in college basketball. So he's not even a one and done!
The last time Jay Wright won a national championship he had the only one and done he's ever had on his roster.
I thought Maalik Waynes was the player everyone agreed screwed things up? Him and someone else (Hilliard?) who apparently got into a big fight with Scottie Reynolds right before the 2010 NCAA tournament that blew up the locker room. This is what I heard from a Nova poster on Holyland a few years back.
Edit: still can't remember the other player but given HS rankings and class I think it was Cheek
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I thought Maalik Waynes was the player everyone agreed screwed thongs up? Him and someone else (Hilliard?) who apparently got into a big fight with Scottie Reynolds right before the 2010 NCAA tournament that blew up the locker room. This is what I heard from a Nova poster on Holyland a few years back.
How did Jay Wright let that happen!
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I mean, how many one and done players has Jay Wright ever had? The only one I can think of is Omari Spellman, who was great for Villanova, for a team that...won the national championship?
So this idea that Jay got out of the "one and done game" because it "didn't fit his culture" and that's when he turned the corner just doesn't seem to add up at all. People use Javon Quinnerly as the example of why Jay Wright got out of the "one and done game." Javon Quinnerly is now in his 2nd season with Alabama and third season in college basketball. So he's not even a one and done!
The last time Jay Wright won a national championship he had the only one and done he's ever had on his roster.
Omari Spellman wasn't a one and done. He was a second year freshman who was suspended his first year for eligibility issues. He spent two years at Villanova.
In 2009, Jay Wright brought in a recruiting class of 3 5-star players that was ranked 4th in the nation. At least two of those three viewed themselves as one and dones and when they didn't play enough to get drafted, they caused locker room issues that eventually led to the team cratering in that class' junior year. The two offending players left, Jay adjusted his strategy and he then built Nova into one of the two best programs of the past 10 years.
The Villanova blueprint is a bunch of a talented multi-year players who buy into Wright's culture. I don't know why people get so offended by this idea. This comes from the man himself, unless people think Wright is lying.
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The Villanova blueprint is a bunch of a talented multi-year players who buy into Wright's culture. I don't know why people get so offended by this idea. This comes from the man himself, unless people think Wright is lying.
Which would be an odd belief, considering his actions and recruiting reinforce it.
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Omari Spellman wasn't a one and done. He was a second year freshman who was suspended his first year for eligibility issues. He spent two years at Villanova.
In 2009, Jay Wright brought in a recruiting class of 3 5-star players that was ranked 4th in the nation. At least two of those three viewed themselves as one and dones and when they didn't play enough to get drafted, they caused locker room issues that eventually led to the team cratering in that class' junior year. The two offending players left, Jay adjusted his strategy and he then built Nova into one of the two best programs of the past 10 years.
The Villanova blueprint is a bunch of a talented multi-year players who buy into Wright's culture. I don't know why people get so offended by this idea. This comes from the man himself, unless people think Wright is lying.
I stand corrected. So he's had 0 one and dones? So he was never in the one and done game to begin with it seems.
If people want to avoid five stars that's cool I guess. I don't think we'll ever become Villanova (see: 2 national titles in a decade) without recruiting five star players, though. I'm guessing just about every team that has won a national title over the last decade has had a five star on their roster, with many of them having multiple. So if we want to avoid those guys, we won't be turning into Nova.
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We've been over this.
Jay Wright has not recruited a single one and done since he made those comments. Not a one. No one has said he's only recruiting bums and avoiding talented players. That's a strawman that you've built. He's recruiting very talented players who are also cultural fits and also committed to playing multiple years at Nova.
1. I never used the term one-and-done. That's a strawman of YOUR creation. I was careful to use the term "five-star". Some five-stars are one-and-done, some aren't. I've never said otherwise.
2. How is it a strawman to accept as stated: "They prioritized culture over recruiting rankings. . . "? What evidence is there that Villanova actually did this? I'd have no objection to the statement that they "prioritized culture in addition to recruiting rankings..." Because the facts show that Villanova continued to prioritize rankings--so much so that five of the six highest-ranked players since 2000 were signed after they prioritized "culture first."
3. I don't see a valid claim of similarity between the clear decline in the average rank of Shaka's current recruiting (#148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross and unranked Ben Gold), and Jay Wright focusing on culture, but continuing to recruit and land highly-rated recruits (#20 5* Cam Whitmore #45 Mark Armstrong and #100 Brendan Hausen).
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I stand corrected. So he's had 0 one and dones? So he was never in the one and done game to begin with it seems.
As I said, he recruited two players in the same class who fancied themselves one and dones even though they didn't end up being good enough. It ended up blowing up in his face. He adjusted and has built one of the best programs of the past 10 years.
It's not about whether a player is a one and done. It's about recruiting a player that makes it known during the recruitment process that his intent is to go one and done.
And to be clear, I have no issues with one and dones. There are many ways to skin a cat and one and dones are a perfectly fine way to get the job done. I trust Shaka to build his roster.
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1. I never used the term one-and-done. That's a strawman of YOUR creation. I was careful to use the term "five-star". Some five-stars are one-and-done, some aren't. I've never said otherwise.
I never said you said one and done. The original argument was that Wright prioritized players who would be at Nova for multiple years to learn their culture (i.e. not one and dones). You countered that building a strawman that people were saying that Wright didn't target highly rated prospects, which no one said. I was trying to bring you back to the original argument by showing you that you can recruit highly rated players AND have guys who stay multiple years to learn the culture.
2. How is it a strawman to accept as stated: "They prioritized culture over recruiting rankings. . . "? What evidence is there that Villanova actually did this? I'd have no objection to the statement that they "prioritized culture in addition to recruiting rankings..." Because the facts show that Villanova continued to prioritize rankings--so much so that five of the six highest-ranked players since 2000 were signed after they prioritized "culture first."
Because Jay Wright said so. Again, you can prioritize culture over recruiting rankings and still get highly ranked players. No one has said otherwise.
3. I don't see a valid claim of similarity between the clear decline in the average rank of Shaka's current recruiting (#148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross and unranked Ben Gold), and Jay Wright focusing on culture, but continuing to recruit and land highly-rated recruits (#20 5* Cam Whitmore #45 Mark Armstrong and #100 Brendan Hausen).
That may be because you are comparing Shaka's second class (and his first that he had a whole year to recruit) at Marquette to Wright's 13th class after his 2009 recruiting class. Wright didn't recruit another 5 star for 6 years after 2009. In that time, his highest rated prospect was #49 Daniel Ochefu, his only top 50 prospect in a 6 year span. As Wright had more success, he was able to get higher ranked recruits to buy into his culture and the results speak for themselves. I anticipate that if Shaka is successful, he will continue to improve the talent of incoming players each year. Though we will see how insta-transfers change the basketball landscape.
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The original argument was that Wright prioritized players who would be at Nova for multiple years to learn their culture (i.e. not one and dones). You countered that building a strawman that people were saying that Wright didn't target highly rated prospects, which no one said. I was trying to bring you back to the original argument by showing you that you can recruit highly rated players AND have guys who stay multiple years to learn the culture.
So, if I accept your interpretation here, then it follows that the intent of the post was to highlight the diametrically opposed approaches Jay Wright and Shaka Smart each took after "coming up short with elite recruits."
As you yourself say, Wright is evidence that "you can recruit highly rated players AND have guys who stay multiple years to learn the culture." Wright stopped recuriting players like #21 Dominic Cheek and #23 Malik Waayns and started landing players like #22 Jalen Brunson or #16 Jeremiah Robinson-Earl or #20 Cam Whitmore or #20 Omari Spellman. In additiion to numerous guys just outside the top 40, but still in the top 100.
Meanwhile, when Shaka "had a Jay Wright Moment " he went after "the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable." Those players include #123 David Joplin, #133 Emarion Ellis, #148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross, #92 Stevie Mitchell and #163 Kam Jones, #204 Keeyan Iteerje, Unranked Ben Gold.
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So, if I accept your interpretation here, then it follows that the intent of the post was to highlight the diametrically opposed approaches Jay Wright and Shaka Smart each took after "coming up short with elite recruits."
As you yourself say, Wright is evidence that "you can recruit highly rated players AND have guys who stay multiple years to learn the culture." Wright stopped recuriting players like #21 Dominic Cheek and #23 Malik Waayns and started landing players like #22 Jalen Brunson or #16 Jeremiah Robinson-Earl or #20 Cam Whitmore or #20 Omari Spellman. In additiion to numerous guys just outside the top 40, but still in the top 100.
Meanwhile, when Shaka "had a Jay Wright Moment " he went after "the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable." Those players include #123 David Joplin, #133 Emarion Ellis, #148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross, #92 Stevie Mitchell and #163 Kam Jones, #204 Keeyan Iteerje, Unranked Ben Gold.
What service are you using?
Oh nvm composite. I'm not sure that's the best way to go about it. It's like NET incorporating BPI. If you have a bad metric then composite isn't better it's worse.
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So, if I accept your interpretation here, then it follows that the intent of the post was to highlight the diametrically opposed approaches Jay Wright and Shaka Smart each took after "coming up short with elite recruits."
As you yourself say, Wright is evidence that "you can recruit highly rated players AND have guys who stay multiple years to learn the culture." Wright stopped recuriting players like #21 Dominic Cheek and #23 Malik Waayns and started landing players like #22 Jalen Brunson or #16 Jeremiah Robinson-Earl or #20 Cam Whitmore or #20 Omari Spellman. In additiion to numerous guys just outside the top 40, but still in the top 100.
Meanwhile, when Shaka "had a Jay Wright Moment " he went after "the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable." Those players include #123 David Joplin, #133 Emarion Ellis, #148 Sean Jones, #184 Chase Ross, #92 Stevie Mitchell and #163 Kam Jones, #204 Keeyan Iteerje, Unranked Ben Gold.
Again, you are purposefully looking over the 6 year gap between 2009 and 2015 and comparing Shaka's second class to Wright's much later classes. Wright's classes in the 8 years following his 4th ranked 2009 class were ranked 41st, 22nd, 27th, 36th, 48th, 29th, 45th, and 28th. Shaka's first two classes have been ranked 20th and 57th (so far with an unranked international player who doesn't factor into the class ranking). You are cherry picking 4 recruits that were spread out over 13 classes...all of whom came over 6 years after 2009.
You also left off #11 Mouphtao Yarou from that 2009 recruiting class. And again, it's about recruiting guys who make it known that they are only planning on staying a year and aren't a fit culturally. Brunson, JRE, Whitmore, and Spellman don't match that.
Wright's highest rated class of all time was 2009, ranked 4th in the country. In the 8 years following, he didn't have a single class ranked in the top 20. He tried a year that was all about gathering 5-star talent despite them not matching his culture. It blew up in his face. He has told the world that after the 2009 class he shifted his focus from rankings to culture and the results support his assertion. Is your assertion that Wright is full of crap?
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Again, you are purposefully looking over the 6 year gap between 2009 and 2015 and comparing Shaka's second class to Wright's much later classes. Wright's classes in the 8 years following his 4th ranked 2009 class were ranked 41st, 22nd, 27th, 36th, 48th, 29th, 45th, and 28th. Shaka's first two classes have been ranked 20th and 57th (so far with an unranked international player who doesn't factor into the class ranking). You are cherry picking 4 recruits that were spread out over 13 classes...all of whom came over 6 years after 2009.
You also left off #11 Mouphtao Yarou from that 2009 recruiting class. And again, it's about recruiting guys who make it known that they are only planning on staying a year and aren't a fit culturally. Brunson, JRE, Whitmore, and Spellman don't match that.
Wright's highest rated class of all time was 2009, ranked 4th in the country. In the 8 years following, he didn't have a single class ranked in the top 20. He tried a year that was all about gathering 5-star talent despite them not matching his culture. It blew up in his face. He has told the world that after the 2009 class he shifted his focus from rankings to culture and the results support his assertion. Is your assertion that Wright is full of crap?
My assertion would be Jay recruits a lot of kids that play in the NBA and that’s what Marquette needs if they want to be Villanova
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My assertion would be Jay recruits a lot of kids that play in the NBA and that’s what Marquette needs if they want to be Villanova
How do they keep their eligibility after playing in the NBA?
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Villanova aspires to be Marquette TBT. "We climax later"
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On the Shaka Smart Show at Dave and Busters Shaka has said multiple times that when he recruits kids he tries to talk to everyone to get an idea of who the kid really is. From family members to a janitor he wants to hear everyones perspective.
One thing I really like about this team (that may get pushback from some) is that they seem to play for each other and have a healthy dislike of their opponents. They aren't out there being buddy-buddy with their opponents like you saw in the past with Markus Howard and Myles Powell.
The old-school attitude of you are my enemy while we are inside the lines unless you are wearing the same jersey. I love that. I think if Shaka is that in depth with his recruiting and guys continue to buy in to this style then we are set up incredibly well for the future. Maybe not the next Nova but that's fine. Be the next best version of Marquette.
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Again, you are purposefully looking over the 6 year gap between 2009 and 2015 and comparing Shaka's second class to Wright's much later classes. Wright's classes in the 8 years following his 4th ranked 2009 class were ranked 41st, 22nd, 27th, 36th, 48th, 29th, 45th, and 28th. Shaka's first two classes have been ranked 20th and 57th (so far with an unranked international player who doesn't factor into the class ranking). You are cherry picking 4 recruits that were spread out over 13 classes...all of whom came over 6 years after 2009.
You also left off #11 Mouphtao Yarou from that 2009 recruiting class. And again, it's about recruiting guys who make it known that they are only planning on staying a year and aren't a fit culturally. Brunson, JRE, Whitmore, and Spellman don't match that.
Wright's highest rated class of all time was 2009, ranked 4th in the country. In the 8 years following, he didn't have a single class ranked in the top 20. He tried a year that was all about gathering 5-star talent despite them not matching his culture. It blew up in his face. He has told the world that after the 2009 class he shifted his focus from rankings to culture and the results support his assertion. Is your assertion that Wright is full of crap?
1. I don't care about classes. I've only been talking about individual recruits.
2. I didn't "leave out" Yarou. He was a a five-star, but unlike Wayns and CHeek, he wasn't focused on getting to the NBA as soon as possible, was actually a four-year player, and won kudos for sticking around for the 2013 season and mentoring Ochefu.
3. I'm not going to say Wright is full of crap, but I'm also going to look at his actions in addition to his words.
4. Let's be honest about when Wright realized his 2009 class was a mistake. YOu seem to think it was in 2009. I think its more likely after 2012. Hell, they didn't even play their first game together until the 2010 season, and they finished ranked 9th in the AP. The 2012 disaster is the point that Wright shifted his recruiting strategy to add culture in addition to ranking.
Let's divide Wright's recruiting over the last 20 years into two ten-year periods--before the 2012 season and after.
Over the 10 years from 2003 (earliest data that 247 has) through 2012, Wright recruited:
5 five-star players (and yes, this includes 3 in 2009 class alone) or 18% of the total listed recruits, 10 players ranked 25-100 (36%) and 13 players ranked 100+ (46%).
Then, in the 10 years from 2013 to 2022 (which includes the time after the 2012 season which is when Wright claims he shifted to focusing on culture), he's landed six five-star players (23%) 13 players ranked 25 to 100 (50%) and 7 ranked 100+ (27%).
So what I've been saying all along is true. WRight did not stop caring about player ranking. He's actually more five star players and more 25-100 ranked players than the previous 10-year period. You can say whatever you want about focusing on culture, there was no tradeoff of player quality for better culture--he's simply adding a focus on culture and being more selective while continuing to pursue the same (or better) players that he has always landed.
Meanwhile, there is a sharp difference in how Shaka's recruiting has been impacted. If we compare his leaving Texas for Marquette as analogous to Wight's 2012 season, right down to the similar "I'm going to focus on culture first" statements, we see a different mix of recruits:
Shaka at Texas, recruited 3 five-stars (14%), 15 ranked 25-100 (72%) and 3 below 100 (14%)
Shaka at Marquette so far recruited 0 five-stars, 1 ranked 25-100 (13%) and 7 ranked below 100 (87%)
And i'm not going to entertain the notion that Shaka simply hasn't had time to learn how to recruit in only two classes. He's been a head coach for 13 years, including seven at the high-major level. He managed to land 3 players ranked 25-100 in his first year making the transition from VCU to Texas, and a five star, two more 25-100 and another 100+ in his second class. He certainly has more skill, more connections, and more experience now than he did then.
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1. I don't care about classes. I've only been talking about individual recruits.
2. I didn't "leave out" Yarou. He was a a five-star, but unlike Wayns and CHeek, he wasn't focused on getting to the NBA as soon as possible, was actually a four-year player, and won kudos for sticking around for the 2013 season and mentoring Ochefu.
3. I'm not going to say Wright is full of crap, but I'm also going to look at his actions in addition to his words.
4. Let's be honest about when Wright realized his 2009 class was a mistake. YOu seem to think it was in 2009. I think its more likely after 2012. Hell, they didn't even play their first game together until the 2010 season, and they finished ranked 9th in the AP. The 2012 disaster is the point that Wright shifted his recruiting strategy to add culture in addition to ranking.
I'd say he realized it was a disaster when the fight broke out right before st Mary's in 2010 and certainly realized it was a mistake after a crappy year (considering the sophomore recruits) in 2011
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4. Let's be honest about when Wright realized his 2009 class was a mistake. YOu seem to think it was in 2009. I think its more likely after 2012.
I stopped reading here because this shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Both Jay and Shaka have talked about getting caught up in the need to have the highest ranked class at expense of all else and realizing that they needed to make a change. It worked for Jay, we'll see if it works for Shaka.
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I stopped reading here because this shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Well then maybe you should read the rest because that's where I provided the 20 years of recruiting data and break down every recruit into five-stars, 25-100 and 100+ to see actual recruiting trends.
And frankly, if you don't look at the data, how do you know what you're talking about?
What's funny is that your last criticism was that I didn't include all years, and my examples were "cherry-picking." Now I use all the data, and you "won't look at it" because I "don't know what I'm talking about."
Both Jay and Shaka have talked about getting caught up in the need to have the highest ranked class at expense of all else and realizing that they needed to make a change. It worked for Jay, we'll see if it works for Shaka.
And my only point in response is that the two coaches may have made similar statements, but reacted in diametrically opposed fashion.
Jay Wright said he was going to focus on "culture" and data shows that he continues to build a majority of his roster by recruiting elite five-star players and highly rated top 100 recruits.
Shaka Smart also said he was going to focus on "culture", but is no longer building a majority of his roster from five-star elite players and highly rated top 100 recruits. He's pursuing under-the-radar, hard-working 100+ types.
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Well then maybe you should read the rest because that's where I provided the 20 years of recruiting data and break down every recruit into five-stars, 25-100 and 100+ to see actual recruiting trends.
And frankly, if you don't look at the data, how do you know what you're talking about?
What's funny is that your last criticism was that I didn't include all years, and my examples were "cherry-picking." Now I use all the data, and you "won't look at it" because I "don't know what I'm talking about."
And my only point in response is that the two coaches may have made similar statements, but reacted in diametrically opposed fashion.
Jay Wright said he was going to focus on "culture" and data shows that he continues to build a majority of his roster by recruiting elite five-star players and highly rated top 100 recruits.
Shaka Smart also said he was going to focus on "culture", but is no longer building a majority of his roster from five-star elite players and highly rated top 100 recruits. He's pursuing under-the-radar, hard-working 100+ types.
Shaka was also pursuing AJ Casey, Leon Bond, and Seth Trimble. And now Skyy Clark. For 2023, he's pursuing Jonathan Lamothe, Dailyn Swain, and Justin Edwards (a 5*). I am sure the composite rankings matter almost zero to him and he wants players--regardless of rank--that buy into the "circle" and culture first and foremost.
The difference for Shaka between Texas and Marquette, however, is that Top 60 kids to make a top 10 class to make boosters feel good is no longer a requirement for recruiting.
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Well then maybe you should read the rest because that's where I provided the 20 years of recruiting data and break down every recruit into five-stars, 25-100 and 100+ to see actual recruiting trends.
And frankly, if you don't look at the data, how do you know what you're talking about?
What's funny is that your last criticism was that I didn't include all years, and my examples were "cherry-picking." Now I use all the data, and you "won't look at it" because I "don't know what I'm talking about."
I didn't keep reading because I'm aware that your SOP when arguing with someone on this site is to steadily increase the length of your posts until you can out-fatigue the person you are arguing with. I'm not really interested in playing. This also demonstrated to me that you didn't understand the situation at Nova and that you were building your argument on a faulty premise.
Further, you keep insisting on bringing up how many top 100 recruits Wright brought it after 2009. That's really not relevant to the conversation. The argument isn't that Wright stopped recruiting highly rated recruits. The argument is that he stopped recruiting highly rated recruits for the sake of recruiting highly rated recruits and at the expense of culture. Shaka claims to have had a similar breakthrough after Texas. It doesn't matter how low ranked Shaka's recruits are. What matters is that at Texas he was chasing one and dones and top ranked classes. Now he's not. Jay Wright chased one and dones and a top ranked class in 2009, and now he's not. That's the similarity. Wright is a better coach than Shaka (and just about everyone else) so yes, he's getting higher ranked recruits than Shaka right now. Maybe that will change. Maybe that won't. What won't change is that they both had a similar change in approach to recruiting.
As for your numbers, look at Brew's post below this one for some proper context. You tried to make Jay's 5-star or bust phase into a 10 year thing when it was really only a three year thing.
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You two are talking at cross-purposes, but that might be deliberate. This seems to be relevant yet avoided:
Again, you are purposefully looking over the 6 year gap between 2009 and 2015 and comparing Shaka's second class to Wright's much later classes. Wright's classes in the 8 years following his 4th ranked 2009 class were ranked 41st, 22nd, 27th, 36th, 48th, 29th, 45th, and 28th.
So after years of going away from the 5-stars he landed in 2009, Wright had a long stretch of what looks like culture building. Once it was clear that culture was working (the 2014-15 teams that earned top-2 seeds) he went back to sprinkling in 5-stars.
It seems pretty clear that there are three eras of recruiting from Jay. The 2001-2009 buildup where 'Nova established some NCAA success and then tried to compete with the blue bloods (most notably in 2007-09 when 5/7 recruits were 5-star per 247). Then the 2010-2014 era where they went away from 5-stars around the sort-of-public blow-up over the coachability of the 2009 class. Finally, the 2015-today era where 'Nova has gone back to sprinkling in 5-star players.
Jay landed his first 5-star in 2007. He had five 5-stars from 2007-09 out of seven recruits (71.4% 5-star) which was the "let's go blue blood" period after NCAA success. Then he had zero 5-stars from 2010-2014, which seems like a clear shift from that 07-09 philosophy as they built culture. Then from 2015-today, they brought in six 5-stars out of twenty-four recruits (25% 5-star) which is definitely sprinkling them compared to the short period after landing his first 5-star. And that matches his public comments.
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I didn't keep reading because I'm aware that your SOP when arguing with someone on this site is to steadily increase the length of your posts until you can out-fatigue the person you are arguing with. I'm not really interested in playing. This also demonstrated to me that you didn't understand the situation at Nova and that you were building your argument on a faulty premise.
Further, you keep insisting on bringing up how many top 100 recruits Wright brought it after 2009. That's really not relevant to the conversation. The argument isn't that Wright stopped recruiting highly rated recruits. The argument is that he stopped recruiting highly rated recruits for the sake of recruiting highly rated recruits and at the expense of culture. Shaka claims to have had a similar breakthrough after Texas. It doesn't matter how low ranked Shaka's recruits are. What matters is that at Texas he was chasing one and dones and top ranked classes. Now he's not. Jay Wright chased one and dones and a top ranked class in 2009, and now he's not. That's the similarity. Wright is a better coach than Shaka (and just about everyone else) so yes, he's getting higher ranked recruits than Shaka right now. Maybe that will change. Maybe that won't. What won't change is that they both had a similar change in approach to recruiting.
This is patently false.
Jay Wright made 20 offers to five-star players from 2009 through 2017 (prior to the 2nd national championship), which include 11 one-and-done players, and another 6 two-and-out players.
2010: Two offers: Corey Joseph (who picked Texas, played one year) and Will Barton (who picked Memphis, two years)
2011: no five star offers
2012: One offer DeJuan Coleman (Syracuse - 4 years)
2013: offered Aaron Harrison (picked UK, two years), Andrew Harrison (UK two years) and Tyler Ennis (Syracuse, one and done).
2014: offered Chris McCullough (Syracuse--one year) and Karl-Anthony Towns (UK one-year)
2015: Landed Jalen Brunson (four years), also offered Isiah Briscoe (UK Two years) and Thomas Bryant (Indiana two years)
2016: Landed Omari Spellman (one year), also offered Rawle Akins (Arizona - two years)
2017: Offered Nick Edwards (Kentucky three years), Mohamed Bomba (Texas -one year), Kevin Knox (Kentucky one year), Lonnie Walker (Miami one year), Quade Green (Kentucky-four years), Trevon Duval (Duke one year), Colin Sexton (Alabama one-year)
As for your numbers, look at Brew's post below this one for some proper context. You tried to make Jay's 5-star or bust phase into a 10 year thing when it was really only a three year thing.
And purely coincidence that it was the very three years that the Villanova roster was jammed for playing time on account of five five-stars already on the roster.
If you're a HS senior with a five-star rating and enough talent to play right away for virtually any team in the country, are you going to choose a school with five five-star players ahead of you where there's a chance you might have to sit for two or three years?
In 2013, as soon as all five of the prior five-stars had moved on, Jay was right back to making multiple offers each year to five-stars, including 11 one-and-dones.
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So far, Shaka has given me no reason to be disappointed in either his recruiting or his culture-building.
Over time, I think he will be able to attract many high-4-star recruits and occasional 5-stars, all of whom will fit the culture he is building at Marquette.
Once he has firmly established that, maybe he'll even go for the "right kind of" (in his mind) 1-and-done. (Of course, there's a chance the next NBA/NBAPA CBA will again let kids go right from preps to the league.)
4 pages into this thread, I still think Marquette could be "the next Villanova" -- a Big East team that makes the NCAAs every year, often advances to the second weekend, and is recognized as a legitimate Final Four/national title contender.
FWIW, I don't think a team has to win 2 natties in 3 years like Nova did to be "the next Nova." I'd put Gonzaga at the same level, and they've never won it all.
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This is patently false.
Jay Wright made 20 offers to five-star players from 2009 through 2017 (prior to the 2nd national championship), which include 11 one-and-done players, and another 6 two-and-out players.
2010: Two offers: Corey Joseph (who picked Texas, played one year) and Will Barton (who picked Memphis, two years)
2011: no five star offers
2012: One offer DeJuan Coleman (Syracuse - 4 years)
2013: offered Aaron Harrison (picked UK, two years), Andrew Harrison (UK two years) and Tyler Ennis (Syracuse, one and done).
2014: offered Chris McCullough (Syracuse--one year) and Karl-Anthony Towns (UK one-year)
2015: Landed Jalen Brunson (four years), also offered Isiah Briscoe (UK Two years) and Thomas Bryant (Indiana two years)
2016: Landed Omari Spellman (one year), also offered Rawle Akins (Arizona - two years)
2017: Offered Nick Edwards (Kentucky three years), Mohamed Bomba (Texas -one year), Kevin Knox (Kentucky one year), Lonnie Walker (Miami one year), Quade Green (Kentucky-four years), Trevon Duval (Duke one year), Colin Sexton (Alabama one-year)
And purely coincidence that it was the very three years that the Villanova roster was jammed for playing time on account of five five-stars already on the roster.
If you're a HS senior with a five-star rating and enough talent to play right away for virtually any team in the country, are you going to choose a school with five five-star players ahead of you where there's a chance you might have to sit for two or three years?
In 2013, as soon as all five of the prior five-stars had moved on, Jay was right back to making multiple offers each year to five-stars, including 11 one-and-dones.
Dude. Reading your posts is exhausting
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This is patently false.
You don't know that. You are assuming that because they were one and dones at other universities that Wright would have still recruited them and that they would have been one and done at Nova. It's also possible that Wright offered them before they were thought off as one and done talents. It's also possible that when Wright told them that his plan for them was for them to stay two years that they crossed Nova off their list. It's also possible that Wright talked to the kid once and the kid counted it as an offer so his offers graphic would look cooler on twitter. Offers can mean that a school is going all out to land a kid or they can mean that they talked on the phone once. All we do know for certain is that Wright has never had a one and done ever and that he didn't bring in a single five star for six years after what he has identified as his aha moment.
And you are again missing the point for at least the fourth time now. How many highly rated recruits Wright offered/landed does not matter. The argument isn't that Wright stopped recruiting highly rated recruits. The argument is that he stopped recruiting highly rated recruits for the sake of recruiting highly rated recruits and at the expense of culture.
Again, Jay Wright himself doesn't agree with you. So unless you're calling him a liar, I'm not sure why you are this dug in on this.
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You don't know that. You are assuming that because they were one and dones at other universities that Wright would have still recruited them and that they would have been one and done at Nova. It's also possible that Wright offered them before they were thought off as one and done talents. It's also possible that when Wright told them that his plan for them was for them to stay two years that they crossed Nova off their list. It's also possible that Wright talked to the kid once and the kid counted it as an offer so his offers graphic would look cooler on twitter. Offers can mean that a school is going all out to land a kid or they can mean that they talked on the phone once. All we do know for certain is that Wright has never had a one and done ever and that he didn't bring in a single five star for six years after what he has identified as his aha moment.
And you are again missing the point for at least the fourth time now. How many highly rated recruits Wright offered/landed does not matter. The argument isn't that Wright stopped recruiting highly rated recruits. The argument is that he stopped recruiting highly rated recruits for the sake of recruiting highly rated recruits and at the expense of culture.
All this. Not all offers are equal
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You don't know that. You are assuming that because they were one and dones at other universities that Wright would have still recruited them and that they would have been one and done at Nova. It's also possible that Wright offered them before they were thought off as one and done talents. It's also possible that when Wright told them that his plan for them was for them to stay two years that they crossed Nova off their list. It's also possible that Wright talked to the kid once and the kid counted it as an offer so his offers graphic would look cooler on twitter. Offers can mean that a school is going all out to land a kid or they can mean that they talked on the phone once. All we do know for certain is that Wright has never had a one and done ever and that he didn't bring in a single five star for six years after what he has identified as his aha moment.
And you are again missing the point for at least the fourth time now. How many highly rated recruits Wright offered/landed does not matter. The argument isn't that Wright stopped recruiting highly rated recruits. The argument is that he stopped recruiting highly rated recruits for the sake of recruiting highly rated recruits and at the expense of culture.
Again, Jay Wright himself doesn't agree with you. So unless you're calling him a liar, I'm not sure why you are this dug in on this.
And for the fourth time, you've mischaracterized what I've said. I've never once disagreed with the premise that Jay Wright put more stock into a cultural fit in his recruiting players after Wayns and Cheek departed. Yet you keep posting the straw man that I'm disagreeing with Wright and goading me to "call him a liar."
Just stop it. I don't and never have disputed Jay Wright's statement. I believe he does use culture in his recruiting, and probably didn't pay enough attention in 2009.
You seem to object to my observation (supported by ample data) that his focus on culture hasn't stopped him from offering and landing high-ranked recruits and that there has been no decline in recruiting quality.
You have your alternate facts (class rankings instead of player rankings, using only three years instead of 20 years, claiming fake offers from Villanova are posted on twitter to look cool (on that one, seriously?!? A commitment to Kentucky or Duke isn't cool enough?).
So let's summarize here and see where there's common ground:
Premise 1: Jay Wright started considering cultural fit in recruiting: We both agree here.
Premise 2: That focus on culture did not lead to a decline in recruiting. I say no decline. Do we agree?
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claiming fake offers from Villanova are posted on twitter to look cool (on that one, seriously?!? A commitment to Kentucky or Duke isn't cool enough?).
Are you really not familiar with that phenomenon? Long before commitments, recruits often put out images of themselves with the logos of all the schools that have offered them. There have been instances of players including the logos of schools that are in contact with them but not offered just for the purposes of making it look like they have more offers than the do.
Just stop it. I don't and never have disputed Jay Wright's statement. I believe he does use culture in his recruiting, and probably didn't pay enough attention in 2009.
You seem to object to my observation (supported by ample data) that his focus on culture hasn't stopped him from offering and landing high-ranked recruits and that there has been no decline in recruiting quality.
That is part of his statements, that he stopped focusing on recruiting rankings and wasn't recruiting guys who saw themselves as one and dones because they weren't a fit for his culture. No one has ever said that Wright stopped landing "high-ranked recruits". But he did stop landing them for the sake of landing them and at the expense of culture. And while he never stopped landing high ranked recruits, the rate that he recruited 5-stars at did drop dramatically.
Premise 2: That focus on culture did not lead to a decline in recruiting. I say no decline. Do we agree?
We do not, if we're only looking at recruitment of 5-stars. From 2007 to 2009, Wright tried to keep up with the likes of Duke and Kentucky and recruited more 5-stars than non-5-stars. After that didn't work, he took 6 years off from 5-stars (and top 4-stars with only 1 top 50 recruit, #49 Daniel Ochefu) and since then has recruited 6 5-stars over 8 classes (.75 5-stars per class) after recruiting 5 5-stars over 3 classes (1.67 5-stars per class) from 2007-2009. Or if you prefer, 6 5-stars over 14 classes (.43 5-stars per class) if you include the 6 years where he didn't recruit any of them.
No one has ever said that there was a decline in recruiting. Just a shift in approach. You can win by recruiting a bunch of one and dones, you can win by recruiting a bunch of 3-stars who fit a system, or some hybrid. Wright went from recruiting a bunch of 5-stars to recruiting only 4-stars to recruiting most 4-stars but getting a 5-stars in about 3 out of every 4 classes.
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Can we lock this thread?
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Wow. What a pissing contest this thread has turned out to be
Face it. Both are great coaches and are experienced. Edge to Wright based on more recent success
Shaka looks right now to be most focused on culture recruits than Wright but not by a lot. Still believe Shaka needs to land some real studs going forward. Making the dance, getting some wins and doing better in BEast should greatly help that.
Bottom line is that Shaka does deserve 2 more years to observe how successful he can be. Wright already has already earned his stripes at Villanova.
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Willie is the voice of reason... we have reached the darkest timeline.
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Wow. What a pissing contest this thread has turned out to be
Face it. Both are great coaches and are experienced. Edge to Wright based on more recent success
Shaka looks right now to be most focused on culture recruits than Wright but not by a lot. Still believe Shaka needs to land some real studs going forward. Making the dance, getting some wins and doing better in BEast should greatly help that.
Bottom line is that Shaka does deserve 2 more years to observe how successful he can be. Wright already has already earned his stripes at Villanova.
one of the few here who follow instructions and shows his work +++ can't go wrong with winnin willie warrior here! come on kids-learn from the man
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In the past decade, Villanova has:
7 Big East Regular Season Titles.
5 Big East Tourney Titles
2 National Titles
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In the past decade, Villanova has:
7 Big East Regular Season Titles.
5 Big East Tourney Titles
2 National Titles
Right.
The answer is no.
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Stoopid Villanova was too stoopid in 2013 to realize that it was impossible for them to be the next Villanova.
Shoulda settled on being the next Maryland.
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Wow. What a pissing contest this thread has turned out to be
Face it. Both are great coaches and are experienced. Edge to Wright based on more recent success
Shaka looks right now to be most focused on culture recruits than Wright but not by a lot. Still believe Shaka needs to land some real studs going forward. Making the dance, getting some wins and doing better in BEast should greatly help that.
Bottom line is that Shaka does deserve 2 more years to observe how successful he can be. Wright already has already earned his stripes at Villanova.
Wright has "already earned his stripes." Is this the understatement of the century? He's the best coach in college BB - no scandals, eight regular season BE titles, five BE tournament titles and a couple National Championships in the last five years. Oh, and he's already in the Basketball Hall of Fame.
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Wright has "already earned his stripes." Is this the understatement of the century? He's the best coach in college BB - no scandals, eight regular season BE titles, five BE tournament titles and a couple National Championships in the last five years. Oh, and he's already in the Basketball Hall of Fame.
Some here woulda fired Wright in 2013.
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Maybe we should try to be Creighton first. Creighton has made four Big East championship games in 9 years. I do not think MU has ever made a Big East championship game.
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Maybe we should try to be Creighton first. Creighton has made four Big East championship games in 9 years. I do not think MU has ever made a Big East championship game.
Marv McDerm-Grant, hey?
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Maybe we should try to be Creighton first. Creighton has made four Big East championship games in 9 years. I do not think MU has ever made a Big East championship game.
Actually, our conference success ( championships/winning regular season) across all the different leagues we have been in has been very mediocre.
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Maybe we should try to be Creighton first. Creighton has made four Big East championship games in 9 years. I do not think MU has ever made a Big East championship game.
We can't Mc owns Shaka
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We can't Mc owns Shaka
After last season I don't think McD is allowed to say he owns people
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After last season I don't think McD is allowed to say he owns people
Yes it is a bad take, Arby's...
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After last season I don't think McD is allowed to say he owns people
Well, the FBI (and NCAA) did find he paid for his players.
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Some here woulda fired Wright in 2013.
I know absurd hyperbole is your thing, but nobody would have called for firing a coach coming off 7 straight tourney berths, 3 seasons removed from a FF, and another S16 and E8 in that stretch. Just like nobody was actually calling for Buzz’s head when he left
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I know absurd hyperbole is your thing, but nobody would have called for firing a coach coming off 7 straight tourney berths, 3 seasons removed from a FF, and another S16 and E8 in that stretch. Just like nobody was actually calling for Buzz’s head when he left
I can think of a few people here who would have called for Jay’s job after a bunch of opening weekend losses following 2009’s Final 4
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I know absurd hyperbole is your thing, but nobody would have called for firing a coach coming off 7 straight tourney berths, 3 seasons removed from a FF, and another S16 and E8 in that stretch. Just like nobody was actually calling for Buzz’s head when he left
Yes, it was hyperbole ... but not very absurd that some Scoopers would have called for the firing of a coach who went:
2010-11 -- 21-12, 9th place, first-round loss
2011-12 -- 13-19, 13th place, no tourney
2012-13 -- 20-14, 7th place, first-round loss
There already are Shaka haters who think he's as "bad as Wojo." There are Scoopers who claim they knew Wojo should have been fired during his first season.
So you think zero Scoopers would have called for the firing of a coach who went 54-45 with 7th, 9th and 13th place Big East finishes and zero tourney wins?
Are you new here, Wags?
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People are still butt hurt Crean left and he did far less than Wright to that point and were further removed from the FF. But sure if we’re gonna go off of the isolated idiot or 2 who scream NIT after every loss, then ok
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College sports expert Tom Oates made fun of Jay Wright until 2016 and Tom knows everything
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Is Marquette closer to being Villanova or DePaul? Unfortunately I think we’re closer to DePaul and the trajectory doesn’t seem to be pointing toward Villanova at the moment. Don’t think we’ll end up as either but Villanova sure doesn’t seem attainable.
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Is Marquette closer to being Villanova or DePaul? Unfortunately I think we’re closer to DePaul and the trajectory doesn’t seem to be pointing toward Villanova at the moment. Don’t think we’ll end up as either but Villanova sure doesn’t seem attainable.
Lol. Yeah this loss means we are closer to a team than hasn’t made the NCAAs since 2004. 🙄🙄🙄
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Is Marquette closer to being Villanova or DePaul? Unfortunately I think we’re closer to DePaul and the trajectory doesn’t seem to be pointing toward Villanova at the moment. Don’t think we’ll end up as either but Villanova sure doesn’t seem attainable.
You said you were going away during the game thread. Can we revisit that?
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Lol. Yeah this loss means we are closer to a team than hasn’t made the NCAAs since 2004. 🙄🙄🙄
Than a team that’s won championships? Yes it does. Look at our past decade. Way closer to DePaul than Villanova. It’s ludicrous to say otherwise.
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Than a team that’s won championships? Yes it does. Look at our past decade. Way closer to DePaul than Villanova. It’s ludicrous to say otherwise.
Lol. Sure. In the last decade we have made multiple tournaments but we are closer to a team that has made none.
You really are a clown.
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Lol. Sure. In the last decade we have made multiple tournaments but we are closer to a team that has made none.
You really are a clown.
Call me a clown all you want but it’s true. You’re just salty because you know it’s true. No way Marquette is anywhere close to Villanova. Villanova would be insulted at the thought. They are the pinnacle of what Marquette could hope to be and you are clownish for even thinking we’re close to them. You’re living in fantasy land.
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Can MU be Nova ?
No.
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Can MU be Nova ?
No.
Exactly
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Call me a clown all you want but it’s true. You’re just salty because you know it’s true. No way Marquette is anywhere close to Villanova. Villanova would be insulted at the thought. They are the pinnacle of what Marquette could hope to be and you are clownish for even thinking we’re close to them. You’re living in fantasy land.
I didn't say they were going to be Nova. I am simply stating that they aren't closer to DePaul. That's just silly.
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I didn't say they were going to be Nova. I am simply stating that they aren't closer to DePaul. That's just silly.
Yes they are closer to DePaul.
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Yes they are closer to DePaul.
No they are not. Absolute silliness to claim they are closer to a proven that hasn’t danced since 2004.
But keep willie-ing.
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At this stage, I'd be thrilled to be the next Creighton.
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Actually we’re probably about equidistant from Villanova and DePaul as programs. I’d put Nova at about 5, us at 45 and Rhett Demons at around 100. So a little closer numerically to Villanova, but the programs DePaul has to pass to edge closer to us are a relatively easy climb.
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Maybe we should take the steps necessary to get there and try to be an Iowa or Houston first before we decide we’ll be the best program in college basketball for a decade.
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Maybe we should take the steps necessary to get there and try to be an Iowa or Houston first before we decide we’ll be the best program in college basketball for a decade.
That’s the point. It’s so ludicrous to ask if we can be Villanova when we can’t even muster the consistency of teams like Iowa or Houston or Creighton. We’re more likely to turn into a DePaul than a Villanova at this point. We are obviously neither at the moment but anyone who thinks we’re closer to becoming Villanova than we are to becoming DePaul refuses to accept our current reality.
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That’s the point. It’s so ludicrous to ask if we can be Villanova when we can’t even muster the consistency of teams like Iowa or Houston or Creighton. We’re more likely to turn into a DePaul than a Villanova at this point. We are obviously neither at the moment but anyone who thinks we’re closer to becoming Villanova than we are to becoming DePaul refuses to accept our current reality.
You can keep saying it, but you can keep being wrong.
I don't think you understand how completely awful a program DePaul is.
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You can keep saying it, but you can keep being wrong.
I don't think you understand how completely awful a program DePaul is.
I do. You don’t seem to understand how much closer Marquette is to awful than to excellence. You seem to believe 3 awful NCAA tourney appearances and nothing else in the past decade equates to MU being a good program.
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I do. You don’t seem to understand how much closer Marquette is to awful than to excellence. You seem to believe 3 awful NCAA tourney appearances and nothing else in the past decade equates to MU being a good program.
I mean...it does. Marquette is a "good program." (They have been to an Elite 8 in the last decade BTW.)
DePaul is a horrendous program. May be the worst P6 program over the past decade.
You are letting emotions cloud your judgement.
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Marquette is not a “good program” right now. Technically the elite 8 was this decade but you and I both know that’s not representative of where the program is now or has been for many, many years. I feel bad for you that you consider this “good.” My expectations aren’t even that high. I don’t ever expect them to be Villanova. Just win a tourney game once in a while and be competitive. They aren’t even good enough to do that. I guess your definition of good is NCAA 30% of the time and consistent 1st round exits. Awesome, enjoy your good program.
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Marquette is not a “good program” right now. Technically the elite 8 was this decade but you and I both know that’s not representative of where the program is now or has been for many, many years. I feel bad for you that you consider this “good.” My expectations aren’t even that high. I don’t ever expect them to be Villanova. Just win a tourney game once in a while and be competitive. They aren’t even good enough to do that. I guess your definition of good is NCAA 30% of the time and consistent 1st round exits. Awesome, enjoy your good program.
Thanks, bro
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Marquette is not a “good program” right now. Technically the elite 8 was this decade but you and I both know that’s not representative of where the program is now or has been for many, many years. I feel bad for you that you consider this “good.” My expectations aren’t even that high. I don’t ever expect them to be Villanova. Just win a tourney game once in a while and be competitive. They aren’t even good enough to do that. I guess your definition of good is NCAA 30% of the time and consistent 1st round exits. Awesome, enjoy your good program.
Being in the NCAA tournament as one of the 36 at large teams, pretty much means you are "good." Are they "very good" or "excellent?" Nope. Perhaps they will return there one day. Miles ahead of DePaul though.
You don't have to feel bad for me. I have approached this logically and objectively. You have decided to let your emotions overcome your intelligence and are lashing out in every thread like a child at naptime.
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Being in the NCAA tournament as one of the 36 at large teams, pretty much means you are "good." Are they "very good" or "excellent?" Nope. Perhaps they will return there one day. Miles ahead of DePaul though.
You don't have to feel bad for me. I have approached this logically and objectively. You have decided to let your emotions overcome your intelligence and are lashing out in every thread like a child at naptime.
It’s funny how the ones who always resort to insults are the logical, objective ones. 😂😂😂
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Being in the NCAA tournament as one of the 36 at large teams, pretty much means you are "good." Are they "very good" or "excellent?" Nope. Perhaps they will return there one day. Miles ahead of DePaul though.
You don't have to feel bad for me. I have approached this logically and objectively. You have decided to let your emotions overcome your intelligence and are lashing out in every thread like a child at naptime.
To be fair, we were five wins away from Villanova, and DePaul was five wins away from us in the standings. While we're not closer to DePaul, we're not closer to Villanova either.
And DePaul is at least making an attempt at making the right moves and trending upward. I don't think we can rely on the ineptitude of Jean Lenti Ponsetto to stay ahead of DePaul anymore.
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It’s funny how the ones who always resort to insults are the logical, objective ones. 😂😂😂
You're simply wrong about us being closer to DePaul, who hasn't even sniffed an NCAA tournament bid in years, but you'll never admit it because you're one of those guys who's never wrong.
And you've also said twice that I've seen (and perhaps more, because I haven't read every thread) that you no longer care about Marquette hoops so you're gone.
Bye!
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You're simply wrong about us being closer to DePaul, who hasn't even sniffed an NCAA tournament bid in years, but you'll never admit it because you're one of those guys who's never wrong.
And you've also said twice that I've seen (and perhaps more, because I haven't read every thread) that you no longer care about Marquette hoops so you're gone.
Bye!
In the last 10 years Villanova has been regular season conference champions 7 times and tournament champs 5 times. In that time they have also been to the tourney 9 times. They have made it to the second round 7 times. They have made the S16 3 times. They have won 2 national championships.
Marquette is not closer to this level of excellence than they are to not making the tourney at all. They have made the tourney only 3 times and have lost each time. They’d need to only make it 3 less times a decade to be DePaul. They’d need to make it 6 more times a decade and still wouldn’t be Villanova.
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In the last 10 years Villanova has been regular season conference champions 7 times and tournament champs 5 times. In that time they have also been to the tourney 9 times. They have made it to the second round 7 times. They have made the S16 3 times. They have won 2 national championships.
Marquette is not closer to this level of excellence than they are to not making the tourney at all. They have made the tourney only 3 times and have lost each time. They’d need to only make it 3 less times a decade to be DePaul. They’d need to make it 6 more times a decade and still wouldn’t be Villanova.
Bye!
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Bye!
Clarissa and MU82- founding members of the “I don’t want it to be true so it’s not true regardless of facts” club.
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Bye!
Great argument except Villanova actually pulled it off. Marquette hasn’t even taken a step in the right direction.
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In the last 10 years Villanova has been regular season conference champions 7 times and tournament champs 5 times. In that time they have also been to the tourney 9 times. They have made it to the second round 7 times. They have made the S16 3 times. They have won 2 national championships.
Marquette is not closer to this level of excellence than they are to not making the tourney at all. They have made the tourney only 3 times and have lost each time. They’d need to only make it 3 less times a decade to be DePaul. They’d need to make it 6 more times a decade and still wouldn’t be Villanova.
Marquette has made the tournament four times in the "last ten years." It would have been five in 2020 but Covid.
During that time, DePaul made the CBI. That's it.
Clarissa and MU82- founding members of the “I don’t want it to be true so it’s not true regardless of facts” club.
Says the guy who repeatedly states "last ten years" or "last decade" but ignores one of those years.
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Clarissa and MU82- founding members of the “I don’t want it to be true so it’s not true regardless of facts” club.
Here's a fact for ex-fan Farley36:
Just 9 years ago, Villanova was coming off a 3-year stretch that included 2 first-round NCAAT losses, a 13-19 season, and Big East finishes of 9th place, 13th place and 7th place.
Meanwhile, Marquette was capping a run of 8 straight NCAAT appearances by going S16-S16-E8 and winning a Big East title.
Ipso fatso, by your "facts," Villanova had NO chance to be the next Marquette, let alone the next Villanova.
The stoopid Nova athletic department, stoopid Wright, the stoopid players and their stoopid fans shoulda just accepted mediocrity.
Bye!
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Marquette has made the tournament four times in the "last ten years." It would have been five in 2020 but Covid.
During that time, DePaul made the CBI. That's it.
Says the guy who repeatedly states "last ten years" or "last decade" but ignores one of those years.
Ok, Marquette only made the tourney 4 less times than Nova. Made one elite 8 as opposed to two National championships. Marquette has been treading down since while Nova maintains a consistent level of excellence. You’re not helping your argument.
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Here's a fact for ex-fan Farley36:
Just 9 years ago, Villanova was coming off a 3-year stretch that included 2 first-round NCAAT losses, a 13-19 season, and Big East finishes of 9th place, 13th place and 7th place.
Meanwhile, Marquette was capping a run of 8 straight NCAAT appearances by going S16-S16-E8 and winning a Big East title.
Ipso fatso, by your "facts," Villanova had NO chance to be the next Marquette, let alone the next Villanova.
The stoopid Nova athletic department, stoopid Wright, the stoopid players and their stoopid fans shoulda just accepted mediocrity.
Bye!
This is helping your argument to say that MU used to be better than Nova but no longer is? That’s we’re heading in the exact wrong direction is an indicator that we are closer to becoming Villanova than DePaul? You think I’m the one accepting mediocrity and that’s your argument? If you didn’t want to accept mediocrity you should be saying “you’re right, we are not in a state where our program compares to Villanova. Things need to change.”
Instead you’re here trying to argue that we’re a good program. 😂😂😂
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This is helping your argument to say that MU used to be better than Nova but no longer is? That’s we’re heading in the exact wrong direction is an indicator that we are closer to becoming Villanova than DePaul? You think I’m the one accepting mediocrity and that’s your argument? If you didn’t want to accept mediocrity you should be saying “you’re right, we are not in a state where our program compares to Villanova. Things need to change.”
Instead you’re here trying to argue that we’re a good program. 😂😂😂
I am not comparing our program to Villanova. I started this thread, and that's not what it was about.
I asked if we could be the next Villanova -- if we could do what Villanova did when they weren't yet what they have become. I like to think everybody attached to the program aspires for that.
The point is that a decade ago, Villanova wasn't the next Villanova. It didn't even look like they were the next Marquette. But their coach did a great job bringing in and developing the "right" talent, they started to make serious NCAAT runs, they won titles, and they became what "NOVA!" has become.
You and Sultan can have whatever argument you want about Nova/DePaul. I shouldn't have interjected myself into it because I think it's a stoopid argument.
I am hopeful that Shaka Smart will prove to be our Jay Wright and that, given our resources and facilities, we eventually can be regarded as one of the best programs in the country.
Do I know it will happen? Of course not -- and I never claimed I did. Obviously, the odds are against it happening. But yes, I'd rather believe that it can happen than think it is hopeless.
Unlike you, I'm not planning to stop pulling for our alma mater's basketball program.
Quitting on Marquette basketball because "we're doomed to be DePaul" is your prerogative ... so stop talking about it and do it already!
For somebody who has declared himself to no longer care, you seem to have a lot of problems letting go.
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Marquette is a million miles away from Nova and a million miles away from DePaul. Who cares if one or the other is actually a million and one. Stupid argument.
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Call me a clown all you want but it’s true. You’re just salty because you know it’s true. No way Marquette is anywhere close to Villanova. Villanova would be insulted at the thought. They are the pinnacle of what Marquette could hope to be and you are clownish for even thinking we’re close to them. You’re living in fantasy land.
100%.
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Being in the NCAA tournament as one of the 36 at large teams, pretty much means you are "good." Are they "very good" or "excellent?" Nope. Perhaps they will return there one day. Miles ahead of DePaul though.
You don't have to feel bad for me. I have approached this logically and objectively. You have decided to let your emotions overcome your intelligence and are lashing out in every thread like a child at naptime.
forget metrics, algorithms etc. Q. Did the eye test tell you MU deserved a ncaa bid?
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forget metrics, algorithms etc. Q. Did the eye test tell you MU deserved a ncaa bid?
Yes
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Villanova will be playing on Sunday. Where will Marquette be?
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Villanova will be playing on Sunday. Where will Marquette be?
Cool story, bro
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Sure it can, if you put Marquette on all the Nova uniforms.
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Villanova will be playing on Sunday. Where will Marquette be?
If only you had been a Nova “fan” 10 years ago, you could have told stoopid Wright and his stoopid bosses that trying to be great was stoopid.
And why are you still here? You said you were done with Marquette. Are you a liar?
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forget metrics, algorithms etc. Q. Did the eye test tell you MU deserved a ncaa bid?
Yes.
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If only you had been a Nova “fan” 10 years ago, you could have told stoopid Wright and his stoopid bosses that trying to be great was stoopid.
And why are you still here? You said you were done with Marquette. Are you a liar?
Lol, looks like someone’s triggered. Take it easy old timer. You can think Marquette is almost as good as Villanova.
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Lol, looks like someone’s triggered. Take it easy old timer. You can think Marquette is almost as good as Villanova.
Looks like the ex-Marquette fan liar is easily triggered, so he sets up a strawman.
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Million miles ahead of DePaul? Did you watch the last game against Depaul where they punked the crap out of Marquette?
Marquette is a million miles away from Nova and a million miles away from DePaul. Who cares if one or the other is actually a million and one. Stupid argument.
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Million miles ahead of DePaul? Did you watch the last game against Depaul where they punked the crap out of Marquette?
Did you watch Marquette beat Nova twice?
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Yeah, a real mystery that the team that took the court on Thursday could possibly have beaten Nova twice.
Marquette should hang a banner for those excellent mid-season wins.
Did you watch Marquette beat Nova twice?
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God,what an awful showing at the end of the season. At least 5 totally unwatchable games
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Another Sweet 16 for Villanova. Exciting to know that we are not far from being just like them.
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Another Sweet 16 for Villanova. Exciting to know that we are not far from being just like them.
Which nobody said.
Exciting to know that you don't want Marquette to aspire to be a great program like Villanova. Also exciting to know that you don't think that, 10 years ago, Villanova should have aspired to become the great program Villanova has become.
Given that you've already announced that you don't care about Marquette basketball, and that you have to create strawmen for all of your inane and inaccurate arguments, I guess that shouldn't be surprising.
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Which nobody said.
Exciting to know that you don't want Marquette to aspire to be a great program like Villanova. Also exciting to know that you don't think that, 10 years ago, Villanova should have aspired to become the great program Villanova has become.
You are aware that Villanova made the Elite Eight in 2006 and Final Four in 2009, right? It sounds like you're suggesting that in 2012 they had yet to achieve greatness.
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You are aware that Villanova made the Elite Eight in 2006 and Final Four in 2009, right? It sounds like you're suggesting that in 2012 they had yet to achieve greatness.
Of course I'm aware. They had a decent amount of success, just as Marquette did in the aughts and teens.
We made the Final Four in 2003, the Sweet 16 in 2011 and 2012, and the Elite Eight (after winning the conference title) in 2013. You'll agree that compared to Marquette (and plenty of other programs), Villanova was nothing special then, right?
In March of 2013, there was absolutely no reason to believe that Villanova was about to become a better basketball program than Marquette.
Back then, some NovaScoopers would have scoffed at the idea of Villanova being able to compete on the same level as Kansas, Kentucky, Duke ... and maybe even Marquette.
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Of course I'm aware. They had a decent amount of success, just as Marquette did in the aughts and teens.
We made the Final Four in 2003, the Sweet 16 in 2011 and 2012, and the Elite Eight (after winning the conference title) in 2013. You'll agree that compared to Marquette (and plenty of other programs), Villanova was nothing special then, right?
In March of 2013, there was absolutely no reason to believe that Villanova was about to become a better basketball program than Marquette.
Back then, some NovaScoopers would have scoffed at the idea of Villanova being able to compete on the same level as Kansas, Kentucky, Duke ... and maybe even Marquette.
So in the 6 years prior to when you say people wanted Jay Wright fired Nova had an Elite 8 and a Final Four. Marquette has had…what in the last 6 years?
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So in the 6 years prior to when you say people wanted Jay Wright fired Nova had an Elite 8 and a Final Four. Marquette has had…what in the last 6 years?
2 questions, wades:
In 2013, what would have been your answer if the question was "Can Villanova be The Next (Insert Blueblood Here)?"
In 2013, did you even think Villanova was a better program than Marquette?
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2 questions, wades:
In 2013, what would have been your answer if the question was "Can Villanova be The Next (Insert Blueblood Here)?"
In 2013, did you even think Villanova was a better program than Marquette?
No, I didn’t think they’d be the best program in the country for a decade. But yes I thought they were better than Marquette. They had an Elite Eight and a Final Four, and had been a one, two, and three seed all recently.
Sure every program in the country should aspire to be the best program in the country. But I’m realistic enough to realize Marquette is not that. I’m going to be realistic with my expectations. I’m just hoping to see one more Final Four in my lifetime, but realistic enough to know it’s very unlikely. If we get two national titles and two other one seeds? Well, I’ll be happy to admit I couldn’t have been more wrong.
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No, I didn’t think they’d be the best program in the country for a decade. But yes I thought they were better than Marquette. They had an Elite Eight and a Final Four, and had been a one, two, and three seed all recently.
Sure every program in the country should aspire to be the best program in the country. But I’m realistic enough to realize Marquette is not that. I’m going to be realistic with my expectations. I’m just hoping to see one more Final Four in my lifetime, but realistic enough to know it’s very unlikely. If we get two national titles and two other one seeds? Well, I’ll be happy to admit I couldn’t have been more wrong.
That's all fair, wades.
In 2011, we went to the S16 and Nova lost in the first round. In 2012, we went to the S16 and Nova went 13-19. In 2013, we won the BE title and went to the E8; Nova lost in the first round. I'm guessing that plenty of folks on NovaScoop at the time were hoping their team could be as good as Marquette.
Totally agree that winning two titles in 3 years is an unrealistic expectation, and I hope you'll agree that I haven't come within 1,000 miles of saying I expect anything close to that. I'm saying that maybe a dozen programs are gonna stand out 3, 5, 7 and 10 years from now. I'm hoping that our resources and commitment to basketball, as well Shaka, gives us a chance to be in the mix.
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Reminder that Villanova plays another Sweet 16 game today. The “Next Villanova” is at home with their buddy DePaiul acting superior yet doing the exact same thing just like every year at this time.
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Reminder that Villanova plays another Sweet 16 game today. The “Next Villanova” is at home with their buddy DePaiul acting superior yet doing the exact same thing just like every year at this time.
Reminder, nobody said Marquette was the Next Villanova. Reminder, it was an aspirational question not a declaration.
Oh ... and reminder, you're a quitter and a liar who said he no longer cares about Marquette basketball.
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So how is Nova Nova? Obviously it all comes down to Jay Wright. It's really about:
1) Point guard play. They always have a lead guard that is both a threat to score but is in total control of the game. I know people don't think Gillespe is BE POY good for some reason, but he is an absolute stud in the college game. And Brunsnon before him, Archi before him, Reynolds, etc. They play at their own pace and control everything offensively.
2) Discipline. The shot fakes on the perimeter into the drive, the jump stops in the paint, the defensive matchups. There are times where it looks like a team is going to get out and run in transition on them and at the very least get bad matchups for Nova, and at best get an easy transition basket. But they get matched up so well.
3) Shooting. All 5 guys on the court are threats to shoot the ball. They can spread you out, drive on you, and kick from there. They're always making the defense move.
4) Weight room. Especially their guards, but everyone can battle in the Big East and in the Tournament.
And then they have the talent on top of all of that.
I'd be thrilled to have about half of what is above.
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Villanova is now 19-3. NINETEEN AND THREE! In the last 6 NCAA Tournaments.
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Why are people here saying Marquette is twice as good as Villanova? So clueless!
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What time is Marquette’s Elite 8 game start this weekend? Same time as DePaul’s?
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Villanova is now 19-3. NINETEEN AND THREE! In the last 6 NCAA Tournaments.
Like Nova, we have 3 losses in the last 6 tournaments.
Like DePaul, we have 0 wins in those same 6 tournaments.
In some ways we’re close to both programs. In others, we’re light years away.
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farley36:
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What time is Marquette’s Elite 8 game start this weekend? Same time as DePaul’s?
Ope. Looks like you’re joining NolongerWarriors and 4evercantspell on the block list. Post above is def you.
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Ope. Looks like you’re joining NolongerWarriors and 4evercantspell on the block list. Post above is def you.
It's ok. We are on our way to becoming the next Houston!
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Quote from: Farley36 on Today at 08:50:47 PM
"What time is Marquette’s Elite 8 game start this weekend? Same time as DePaul’s?"
Right after the Rodents play ! ! ! 8-)
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Villanova has a legit shot at a 3rd natty. Anyone who thinks the Marquette program is in the same universe as Villanova is insane.
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Villanova has a legit shot at a 3rd natty. Anyone who thinks the Marquette program is in the same universe as Villanova is insane.
Ironically enough we are in the same universe according to science/astronomy.
Also ironically enough Marquette hasn't lost to Villanova in like 400 days or so.
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So how is Nova Nova? Obviously it all comes down to Jay Wright. It's really about:
1) Point guard play. They always have a lead guard that is both a threat to score but is in total control of the game. I know people don't think Gillespe is BE POY good for some reason, but he is an absolute stud in the college game. And Brunsnon before him, Archi before him, Reynolds, etc. They play at their own pace and control everything offensively.
2) Discipline. The shot fakes on the perimeter into the drive, the jump stops in the paint, the defensive matchups. There are times where it looks like a team is going to get out and run in transition on them and at the very least get bad matchups for Nova, and at best get an easy transition basket. But they get matched up so well.
3) Shooting. All 5 guys on the court are threats to shoot the ball. They can spread you out, drive on you, and kick from there. They're always making the defense move.
4) Weight room. Especially their guards, but everyone can battle in the Big East and in the Tournament.
And then they have the talent on top of all of that.
I'd be thrilled to have about half of what is above.
Excellent points and I agree wholeheartedly.
Nova has also gotten much. much better recruits over the past 10-15 years than Marquette has brought in. Nova has had better coaching, better players and better results than Marquette. Unless our recruiting improves I don't see Marquette coming close to the success Villanova has had recently.
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Ironically enough we are in the same universe according to science/astronomy.
Also ironically enough Marquette hasn't lost to Villanova in like 400 days or so.
Post season is what matters. It is what you play for. We have been a failure the last 10 years in that regard.
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Too bad Jay Wright didn’t stop trying in 2013, when Marquette was winning the Big East and going to the Elite Eight, and Nova was coming off a stretch of R1 loss/13-19/R1 loss.
I hear any Villanova fans who aspired for greatness for the program back then were told on NovaScoop to just quit caring.
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82
What does Farley think about MU becoming the next Villanova? That really is my baseline and do lazy to read all of his posts.
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82
What does Farley think about MU becoming the next Villanova? That really is my baseline and do lazy to read all of his posts.
He hasn’t been very clear about it but I don’t think he is convinced we can do it.
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ATL MU
Thanks for the confirmation. I have been trying to read between the lines in his posts and your post clears things up for me.
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Can Marquette be "The Next St. Peter's"?
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82
What does Farley think about MU becoming the next Villanova? That really is my baseline and do lazy to read all of his posts.
Sources say Farley has stopped caring about Marquette. Because that's what true fans do.
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82
What does Farley think about MU becoming the next Villanova? That really is my baseline and do lazy to read all of his posts.
Wrong. I think with the right coach Marquette could become much closer to Villanova than we are now. What I find silly though is the people here who seem to think we currently aren’t far off from being Villanova. We are much closer to the bottom teams in the Big East than the top teams right now.
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Farley
not exactly sure why I am asking this, but who would be the right coach?
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Wrong. I think with the right coach Marquette could become much closer to Villanova than we are now. What I find silly though is the people here who seem to think we currently aren’t far off from being Villanova. We are much closer to the bottom teams in the Big East than the top teams right now.
I won’t say Shaka was the wrong hire…or correct hire, yet. The coaching search is such a crap-shoot, it seems. Did Shaka’s in-game crunch time coaching win and/or lose a game or two? Both, I’d say. But, we definitely need more player talent. Let’s see what emerges this off-season, who returns, and their on-court improvement. I think it’s possible MU is a top 3 BE team next year. We could also be a bottom 4 BE team next year. If ever a record correctly reflects where a team is at now, it’s Marquette. Mid-pack.
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St. Peters coach was sub .500 prior to this season, hey?
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St. Peters coach was sub .500 prior to this season, hey?
And now he’s going to make some serious cheddar
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I think with the right coach Marquette could become much closer to Villanova than we are now.
This is the first attempt you've kind of made at a comment that wasn't either pure idiocy or trolling. Indeed, this is similar to what I've been saying throughout the thread, and it's more in line with what the intent of the O.P. was. Congrats on almost kind of figuring it out.
Now, can we give Shaka another year or two to see if he can be the right coach, or should we fire him today and start over?
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And now he’s going to make some serious cheddar
Sure, because schools are suckers and want the latest and the greatest. He'll get da bag. But, fookin' John Wooden couldn't do chit without talent. A good mix of talent and coachin' puts you the conversation, hey?
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Sure, because schools are suckers and want the latest and the greatest. He'll get da bag. But, fookin' John Wooden couldn't do chit without talent cheating. A good mix of talent and coachin' puts you the conversation, hey?
FIFY
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4ever
I like the St. Peter’s coach and hope he makes a big haul after this season. That said, I think there will be a very sorry buyer for his services in a few years. I hope I am wrong, but not much of resume prior to the last few weeks.
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FIFY
All coaches cheat, hey?
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Farley
not exactly sure why I am asking this, but who would be the right coach?
Not Wojo and likely not Shaka. I wont pretend to know. But Nova wouldn’t be Noca without Jay Wright. They captured lightning in a bottle. That’s kind of the point. Even with all the resources that MU has, they also would have to capture lightning in a bottle. Until we do, to claim we are closer to Nova than bottom BE teams is just fan hope more than reality.
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4ever
I like the St. Peter’s coach and hope he makes a big haul after this season. That said, I think there will be a very sorry buyer for his services in a few years. I hope I am wrong, but not much of resume prior to the last few weeks.
If he goes to SH, I sure hope you are right Goose. I'm fine with a good, solid SH team- provided that we beat them on a fairly regular basis- but a BE version of what he has done at St. Peter's? No thank you. With Nova and UCONN, we have enough to deal with.
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This is the first attempt you've kind of made at a comment that wasn't either pure idiocy or trolling. Indeed, this is similar to what I've been saying throughout the thread, and it's more in line with what the intent of the O.P. was. Congrats on almost kind of figuring it out.
Now, can we give Shaka another year or two to see if he can be the right coach, or should we fire him today and start over?
I have not once said Shaka should be fired. Also, despite how much I offended you, I have never argued that Marquette couldn’t be closer to Nova than they are now. What I did say is that currently they are closer to DePaul than Villanova. Hyperbole? Maybe a little but the point underneath the hyperbole is that after the horrible Wojo years they again crapped the bed. It is now nearly a decade since MU has been relevant. It would be a success just win a tourney game at this point. Nova is a universe away. People like Clarissa who want to stick their heads in the sand and pretend we are still a top program are lying to themselves. I’m not sure why you took that conversation to start implying that I think it’s not the goal Marquette should try to achieve. I just don’t think they are positioned to pull it off.
So my honest question to you. Do you feel that Marquette is currently positioned to join Nova as an elite national program?
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My honest answer to your question is I hope that Shaka is the right coach to put us in that position, but I don’t know if that’s the case. I’ll have a better idea a year or 2 from now. (I’m NOT saying “be patient for 5 or 6 years.”)
I happen to think that outlook, combined with at least a little optimism, is a realistic, healthy thought process for fans now. IMHO, it’s better than, “We’re doomed to NEVER be anything close to Nova, ever ever ever.” But others are free to disagree and be eternally pessimistic.
Seriously, thanks for trying to have an honest conversation rather than pointing out again that Villanova is better than Marquette, something nobody in the world denied.
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Another year, another Final Four.
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Another year, another Final Four.
UCONN Women?
JK, It kinda feels like that with Nova. Good for them. Doing it the Wright way!
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I may not know ball, but I’m pretty comfortable saying I’ll never see MU win 7 conference titles, 2 (or 3) national titles, and go to 3 Final Fours in a decade in my lifetime.
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BLM
Especially if you are still in the combat zone of Tosa and being held up at gunpoint.
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BLM
Especially if you are still in the combat zone of Tosa and being held up at gunpoint.
Crazy that there was crime in the Milwaukee area 15 years ago. Scoop taught me that started 3 years ago.
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wades
I actually owe you an apology. I agree with virtually nothing you post on here, but you do know ball better than most. Stick to posting on ball threads and skip the superbar and trading posts. You are much better talking ball.
FYI— I am serious on the apology of not knowing ball.
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wades
I actually owe you an apology. I agree with virtually nothing you post on here, but you do know ball better than most. Stick to posting on ball threads and skip the superbar and trading posts. You are much better talking ball.
FYI— I am serious on the apology of not knowing ball.
‘preciate it.
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I may not know ball, but I’m pretty comfortable saying I’ll never see MU win 7 conference titles, 2 (or 3) national titles, and go to 3 Final Fours in a decade in my lifetime.
I hope you’re wrong, but only a dope would disagree with this.
Of course, 10 years ago any realistic Nova fan would have said the exact same thing.
And obviously I agree with Goose that you know hoops (but disagree that you should skip the Superbar).
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Sorry to interrupt but can anyone remind me what time the next Villanova plays today? Is it on the same channel as the DePaul game?
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Should probably tell Villanova what time theyre supposed to play too
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How delicious. I really hope if Villanova loses that Scoopers try to use that to some how turn this into either “Marquette’s loss wasn’t that bad after all” or “Villanova’s program isn’t that much better than Marquette’s.”
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How delicious. I really hope if Villanova loses that Scoopers try to use that to some how turn this into either “Marquette’s loss wasn’t that bad after all” or “Villanova’s program isn’t that much better than Marquette’s.”
nobody is gonna say this ur just an obsessed pathetic troll.
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nobody is gonna say this ur just an obsessed pathetic troll.
He’s getting what he wants
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BLM
Especially if you are still in the combat zone of Tosa and being held up at gunpoint.
seems like the BLM schtick wore out it's welcome, eyn'er? show me the $$$ :o
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seems like the BLM schtick wore out it's welcome, eyn'er? show me the $$$ :o
Says the guy with the racist username. 🙄🙄🙄
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Says the guy with the racist username. 🙄🙄🙄
ALL lives?? nice try stretch
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ALL lives?? nice try stretch
Black Lives Matter
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ALL lives?? nice try stretch
Been explained to you multiple times. Too much of a dimwit to understand.
But of course I’m not expecting much out of ivermectin-boy.
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Been explained to you multiple times. Too much of a dimwit to understand.
But of course I’m not expecting much out of ivermectin-boy.
what does ALL mean to you?? i dont care how many times it's explained to me, words mean things and you cannot change the meaning to suit your means. but of course, coming from a guy who's surrounded by "wokeness" you've lost the ability to think for yourself. you go with what they tell you to think
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what does ALL mean to you?? i dont care how many times it's explained to me, words mean things and you cannot change the meaning to suit your means. but of course, coming from a guy who's surrounded by "wokeness" you've lost the ability to think for yourself. you go with what they tell you to think
😂😂😂 “Surrounded by wokeness.”
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Been explained to you multiple times. Too much of a dimwit to understand.
But of course I’m not expecting much out of ivermectin-boy.
ok mr know-it-all you were the one who told me natural immunity obtained by recovering from covid isn't as effective as the vaccine
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ok mr know-it-all you were the one who told me natural immunity obtained by recovering from covid isn't as effective as the vaccine
8 of 10
6 of 10
Enjoy horse paste
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Howdy Doody went off the air decades ago. But, Clarabell is a regular poster here, hey?
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The real Clarabell would be a welcome addition to scoop.
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We've got some pretty good wannabes, hey?
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The real Clarabell would be a welcome addition to scoop.
Sweet burn?
I may need to consult my encyclopedia to make sure.
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Captain Kangaroo precursor, aina?
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Says the guy with the racist username. 🙄🙄🙄
so, looking for a thread lock down?
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what does ALL mean to you?? i dont care how many times it's explained to me, words mean things and you cannot change the meaning to suit your means. but of course, coming from a guy who's surrounded by "wokeness" you've lost the ability to think for yourself. you go with what they tell you to think
100%
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100%
🤡🤡🤡
Good to know you condone racism.
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Clarabell is kind of feeling himself tonight I see.😳😫🤓😒😓
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Really bad visual, doe, hey?
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Clarabell is kind of feeling himself tonight I see.😳😫🤓😒😓
So you take a quote in response to your performance a week ago and regurgitate, while making sure the meat bros have your back. Good work.
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Yeah, we all pinky swear in blood, hey?
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Yeah, we all pinky swear in blood, hey?
Thought you swore in sausages, yo.
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Hey Rocky
Fluff had busted my balls all day, when I was trying to contribute to the topic in the thread and this is what you call out? I do not recall the meat bros having my back last week, so what is your point?
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Hey Rocky
Fluff had busted my balls all day, when I was trying to contribute to the topic in the thread and this is what you call out? I do not recall the meat bros having my back last week, so what is your point?
Point: you're just seeking revenge for your own embarrassment. 'nuff said.
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Point: you're just seeking revenge for your own embarrassment. 'nuff said.
Yep yep.
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Not Wojo and likely not Shaka. I wont pretend to know. But Nova wouldn’t be Noca without Jay Wright. They captured lightning in a bottle. That’s kind of the point. Even with all the resources that MU has, they also would have to capture lightning in a bottle. Until we do, to claim we are closer to Nova than bottom BE teams is just fan hope more than reality.
So in year one at Marquette, Shaka has a clearly better season than any of Wright's first three at Villanova, while also having a more proven history at VCU and Texas than Jay did at Hofstra, yet you know it's not him because...nothing?
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So in year one at Marquette, Shaka has a clearly better season than any of Wright's first three at Villanova, while also having a more proven history at VCU and Texas than Jay did at Hofstra, yet you know it's not him because...nothing?
This was the same nonsense people were spouting about Wojo. It applies even less to Shaka than it did Wojo. Shaka has a long history to judge. Since VCU it ain’t been much to write home about. However let’s give him 7 or 8 years and see how it goes.
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Shortly after the New Big East was formed Jay Bilas and another ESPN announcer were saying Villanova can be the next Kansas. They were not wrong.
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what does ALL mean to you?? i dont care how many times it's explained to me, words mean things and you cannot change the meaning to suit your means. but of course, coming from a guy who's surrounded by "wokeness" you've lost the ability to think for yourself. you go with what they tell you to think
You are extremely wrong.
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Shortly after the New Big East was formed Jay Bilas and another ESPN announcer were saying Villanova can be the next Kansas. They were not wrong.
next Kansas as in…cheaters?
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This was the same nonsense people were spouting about Wojo. It applies even less to Shaka than it did Wojo. Shaka has a long history to judge. Since VCU it ain’t been much to write home about. However let’s give him 7 or 8 years and see how it goes.
Feel free to find one person that’s actually said Shaka deserves the kind of leash Wojo ultimately did (IE 7-8 years). And when you can’t, feel free to stop beating this horse to death.
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what does ALL mean to you?? i dont care how many times it's explained to me, words mean things and you cannot change the meaning to suit your means. but of course, coming from a guy who's surrounded by "wokeness" you've lost the ability to think for yourself. you go with what they tell you to think
It’s pathetic you still can’t grasp this concept.
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what does ALL mean to you?? i dont care how many times it's explained to me, words mean things and you cannot change the meaning to suit your means. but of course, coming from a guy who's surrounded by "wokeness" you've lost the ability to think for yourself. you go with what they tell you to think
It means that when people explain words to you and put them in context, you only interpret them to suit your own purposes. Just like you adopt "wokeness" which (1) isn't really a word and (2) would only mean a state of being awake or asleep. So when you want to use that term to mean something other than what it actually means, you have no problem with it, but when people explain to you the racist meaning behind the words you use, you hide behind this "words mean things" BS that you then ignore in the very next sentence.
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🤡🤡🤡
Good to know you condone racism.
classic!! Just…classic!
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classic!! Just…classic!
If you agree with what rocket said, you either don't understand or choose not to understand.
Assuming you have a degree from Marquette, you could understand if you want to. Making the conscious choice to not understand means you are condoning the racism.
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If you agree with what rocket said, you either don't understand or choose not to understand.
Assuming you have a degree from Marquette, you could understand if you want to. Making the conscious choice to not understand means you are condoning the racism.
having or not having a Marquette degree is irrelevant. I do, but irrelevant. Do not question someone you do not know. I’d welcome meeting you and having a conversation. Continued dialogue via a post? No.
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having or not having a Marquette degree is irrelevant. I do, but irrelevant. Do not question someone you do not know. I’d welcome meeting you and having a conversation. Continued dialogue via a post? No.
I'm not sure a one on one meeting is necessary to iron out why 'all lives matter' is inherently problematic.
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Would they rename Marquette to Villanova 2 or Villanova Wisconsin or Villanova West?
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Would they rename Marquette to Villanova 2 or Villanova Wisconsin or Villanova West?
We may need to consider DePaul North
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2024 MU recruit Kon Knueppel: "I talk to Shaka Smart and Neill Berry a lot. They had an awesome first year with a ton of new guys. Coach Smart loves defense. Their goal per game is to achieve 31 or more deflections and I love the culture they have started to build there."
He apparently didn't get the memo that the first year actually was an unmitigated disaster; he's been brainwashed by the "culture matters" people; and he doesn't even know that the goal is 32 deflections.
After Shakiet gets fired, his replacement should pass on this guy.
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2024 MU recruit Kon Knueppel: "I talk to Shaka Smart and Neill Berry a lot. They had an awesome first year with a ton of new guys. Coach Smart loves defense. Their goal per game is to achieve 31 or more deflections and I love the culture they have started to build there."
He apparently didn't get the memo that the first year actually was an unmitigated disaster; he's been brainwashed by the "culture matters" people; and he doesn't even know that the goal is 32 deflections.
After Shakiet gets fired, his replacement should pass on this guy.
I recall all those glowing quotes from 16 year olds about Wojo. If only praise from 16 year old kids won late and post season games.
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I recall all those glowing quotes from 16 year olds about Wojo. If only praise from 16 year old kids won late and post season games.
Do you ? Who said what ?
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2024 MU recruit Kon Knueppel: "I talk to Shaka Smart and Neill Berry a lot. They had an awesome first year with a ton of new guys. Coach Smart loves defense. Their goal per game is to achieve 31 or more deflections and I love the culture they have started to build there."
He apparently didn't get the memo that the first year actually was an unmitigated disaster; he's been brainwashed by the "culture matters" people; and he doesn't even know that the goal is 32 deflections.
After Shakiet gets fired, his replacement should pass on this guy.
Top 50 kid. Not sure why Shaka is recruiting him. Won't fit the culture. Going after highly rated kids isn't the right way to build a program.
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Do you ? Who said what ?
These articles come out constantly where recruits say what they like about the coaches recruiting them. It’s silly to post these as something meaningful. All that matters are results on the court. Shaka started strong and limped across the finish line. Next year likely won’t be a step forward.
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These articles come out constantly where recruits say what they like about the coaches recruiting them. It’s silly to post these as something meaningful. All that matters are results on the court. Shaka started strong and limped across the finish line. Next year likely won’t be a step forward.
So you can’t point to any quotes which are similar to what was originally referenced.
Not surprising for a fraud like you.
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Top 50 kid. Not sure why Shaka is recruiting him. Won't fit the culture. Going after highly rated kids isn't the right way to build a program.
In all seriousness, as you've previously pointed out, Shaka has gone after highly ranked players (Aidoo, Bond, Bates, Trimble, Casey, etc.). He's simply lost out on them.
The frustration here is that people are waving off those recruiting misses by saying that Shaka is trying to "build culture" and pretending that the guys he landed were the type of players he wanted all along.
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Need to see result on court.
If Shaka can keep us in the upper half of the Big East and get us a NCAA tourney win, good and better things will happen. Like getting higher ranked recruits. Good feeds off of good.
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In all seriousness, as you've previously pointed out, Shaka has gone after highly ranked players (Aidoo, Bond, Bates, Trimble, Casey, etc.). He's simply lost out on them.
The frustration here is that people are waving off those recruiting misses by saying that Shaka is trying to "build culture" and pretending that the guys he landed were the type of players he wanted all along.
No one has said anything like you or Pakuni are suggesting
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No one has said anything like you or Pakuni are suggesting
Well, I wrote in teal for a reason.
That said, these posts appeared in the recruiting thread in recent days:
"Wow - Seen a lot of clowns worried about Shaka's recruiting. Kudos for him for not chasing stars and committing to a certain type of player and winning those battles. He's building in the right way."
"Since when do we expect stars to come to Marquette? That's not who we are, nor do we need to be."
I'll go find other examples if you really like, but Equalizer is 100 percent correct. There's been an underlining defense from some here that paints the lack of highly rated recruits so far as some kind of master plan to do it "the right way," whatever that means. Apparently all those coaches chasing 4- and 5-star kids are playing checkers while Shaka's playing chess.
I haven't been critical of Shaka's recruiting to date because it's only one year and he deserves time to get things rolling. But if we want a team that's going to consistently matter in March, he's going to have to land some top 100 talent. And he knows it, which is why he's recruiting top 100 kids.
Why this is even debatable confuses me. When we lost out on a highly rated recruit 18 months ago, it was "green weenie" time. Now it's "who cares?"
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Well, I wrote in teal for a reason.
That said, these posts appeared in the recruiting thread in recent days:
"Wow - Seen a lot of clowns worried about Shaka's recruiting. Kudos for him for not chasing stars and committing to a certain type of player and winning those battles. He's building in the right way."
"Since when do we expect stars to come to Marquette? That's not who we are, nor do we need to be."
I'll go find other examples if you really like, but Equalizer is 100 percent correct. There's been an underlining defense from some here that paints the lack of highly rated recruits so far as some kind of master plan to do it "the right way," whatever that means. Apparently all those coaches chasing 4- and 5-star kids are playing checkers while Shaka's playing chess.
I haven't been critical of Shaka's recruiting to date because it's only one year and he deserves time to get things rolling. But if we want a team that's going to consistently matter in March, he's going to have to land some top 100 talent. And he knows it, which is why he's recruiting top 100 kids.
Why this is even debatable confuses me. When we lost out on a highly rated recruit 18 months ago, it was "green weenie" time. Now it's "who cares?"
I said something along the lines of - “kudos for him for not chasing stars”
Shaka is recruiting to fit his philosophy. If a player that fits his structure is ranked highly, great! I hope we sign him.
Wojo’s recruiting strategy was along the lines of, hey this highly ranked guy is interested. Let’s get him! That lack of direction in recruiting led to some of the most poorly assembled teams I’ve ever seen.
Shaka is recruiting with a team oriented purpose and not going after individual talent hoping it all works out.
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Well, I wrote in teal for a reason.
That said, these posts appeared in the recruiting thread in recent days:
"Wow - Seen a lot of clowns worried about Shaka's recruiting. Kudos for him for not chasing stars and committing to a certain type of player and winning those battles. He's building in the right way."
"Since when do we expect stars to come to Marquette? That's not who we are, nor do we need to be."
I'll go find other examples if you really like, but Equalizer is 100 percent correct. There's been an underlining defense from some here that paints the lack of highly rated recruits so far as some kind of master plan to do it "the right way," whatever that means. Apparently all those coaches chasing 4- and 5-star kids are playing checkers while Shaka's playing chess.
I haven't been critical of Shaka's recruiting to date because it's only one year and he deserves time to get things rolling. But if we want a team that's going to consistently matter in March, he's going to have to land some top 100 talent. And he knows it, which is why he's recruiting top 100 kids.
Why this is even debatable confuses me. When we lost out on a highly rated recruit 18 months ago, it was "green weenie" time. Now it's "who cares?"
There's nuance, of course, but it's pretty hard to disagree with what you're saying here.
Every great team has outstanding players who buy into a system/philosophy/culture (whatever one wants to call it). We all have seen that, outside the top 50, rankings tell an incomplete story. Even many in the top 50 either take significant time to develop (Vander) or never live up to the hype (Joey).
But you need great players - period - and I want Shaka to get as many as he can.
He's been a head coach for a long time now, and I assume that he has a pretty good handle on which great players will fit his culture, whether they are HS recruits or transfers.
He's being paid a lot of money to get them to Marquette, and then to retain them through free agency. Like you, I think it's realistic to be patient for a couple of years. We'll see what the program looks like a year from now.
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I think the venn diagram of "Players who fit Shaka's Culture" and "Players who are ranked in the top 100" overlap at least 75%.
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I think the venn diagram of "Players who fit Shaka's Culture" and "Players who are ranked in the top 100" overlap at least 75%.
Agreed. I didn't see many, if any, players that would not have "fit Shaka's culture" in last night's game. We can try to find the diamond in the rough kid who works really hard, but Brad Davisons aren't getting you to the first Monday in April. Burger Boys are.
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Well, I wrote in teal for a reason.
That said, these posts appeared in the recruiting thread in recent days:
"Wow - Seen a lot of clowns worried about Shaka's recruiting. Kudos for him for not chasing stars and committing to a certain type of player and winning those battles. He's building in the right way."
"Since when do we expect stars to come to Marquette? That's not who we are, nor do we need to be."
I'll go find other examples if you really like, but Equalizer is 100 percent correct. There's been an underlining defense from some here that paints the lack of highly rated recruits so far as some kind of master plan to do it "the right way," whatever that means. Apparently all those coaches chasing 4- and 5-star kids are playing checkers while Shaka's playing chess.
I haven't been critical of Shaka's recruiting to date because it's only one year and he deserves time to get things rolling. But if we want a team that's going to consistently matter in March, he's going to have to land some top 100 talent. And he knows it, which is why he's recruiting top 100 kids.
Why this is even debatable confuses me. When we lost out on a highly rated recruit 18 months ago, it was "green weenie" time. Now it's "who cares?"
I didn't read that way at all and as the author Panda explains, he didn't mean it that way at all. Again, no one is saying we shouldn't recruit high rated players but they are saying that we shouldn't recruit high rated players that aren't a fit just because they are high rated.
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I said something along the lines of - “kudos for him for not chasing stars”
Shaka is recruiting to fit his philosophy. If a player that fits his structure is ranked highly, great! I hope we sign him.
Wojo’s recruiting strategy was along the lines of, hey this highly ranked guy is interested. Let’s get him! That lack of direction in recruiting led to some of the most poorly assembled teams I’ve ever seen.
Shaka is recruiting with a team oriented purpose and not going after individual talent hoping it all works out.
This is a great example of exactly what I'm talking about.
Right after I named the specific stars that Shaka chased and missed (Aidoo, Bates, Bond, Trimble, Casey), you follow up with your belief that Shaka deserves kudos for not chasing stars!
Did you really not realize that Shaka "chased stars" before signing the players he did? Or are you simply making up a more positive-sounding narrative to fit what actually happened?
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I would also say that there are a couple of ways that Shaka's recruiting differs from Wojo's. These are just opinions and not backed with any sort of inside knowledge.
1. Shaka does recruit to his system. I think the statement that Wojo was recruiting individual talent and hoping it all worked is somewhat accurate.
2. I think Shaka seems to cast a more narrow net or at least he knows when to focus his time elsewhere. It seemed like we were constantly runner up for players like RJ Davis, Nico Mannion and Quentin Grimes when it may have been better for Wojo to use his time with recruits where we had a more realistic chance.
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I didn't read that way at all and as the author Panda explains, he didn't mean it that way at all. Again, no one is saying we shouldn't recruit high rated players but they are saying that we shouldn't recruit high rated players that aren't a fit just because they are high rated.
What coach do you believe intentionally recruits high rated players that be believes aren't a fit? I imagine every coach believes he can make the players he signs fit. Otherwise, he wouldn't sign that player. And yes, even Wojo. He was bad at making them fit, but I doubt he went after players he didn't think would fit.
The whole thing is a rationalization. As Clarissa correctly notes, the vast majority of high-rated players out there would fit. Shaka isn't doing anything all that unique, guys.
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What coach do you believe intentionally recruits high rated players that be believes aren't a fit? I imagine every coach believes he can make the players he signs fit. Otherwise, he wouldn't sign that player. And yes, even Wojo. He was bad at making them fit, but I doubt he went after players he didn't think would fit. The whole thing is a rationalization. As Clarissa correctly notes, the vast majority of high-rated players out there would fit. Shaka isn't doing anything all that unique, guys.
No he isn't doing anything all that unique, but if you view the recruiting process like a funnel, certain coaches are going to put less names into the top than others depending on the types of players they are looking for. Is Shaka one of those coaches that starts with less players on the front end? I have no idea. But it certainly isn't unheard of for coaches to cast more broad or more narrow nets.
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This is a great example of exactly what I'm talking about.
Right after I named the specific stars that Shaka chased and missed (Aidoo, Bates, Bond, Trimble, Casey), you follow up with your belief that Shaka deserves kudos for not chasing stars!
Did you really not realize that Shaka "chased stars" before signing the players he did? Or are you simply making up a more positive-sounding narrative to fit what actually happened?
I mean cmon man -
Aidoo was a Wojo recruit and followed Gainey.
Tamar Bates committed to Shaka at Texas. He didn’t follow Shaka. Joplin, Ellis and Iterje all followed him so I’m not sure what you’re getting at there.
Shaka was late to the game on Bond/Trimble. Not his fault he just got hired a few months before their decisions. In that short amount of time, he ended up on both of their short lists and was seriously considered. Trimble was always a strong UNC lean because of family ties anyways.
In the short amount of time recruiting, he signed the Big 10 defensive player of the year and the A10 freshman of the year.
Find a new slant.
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Is Shaka one of those coaches that starts with less players on the front end? I have no idea. But it certainly isn't unheard of for coaches to cast more broad or more narrow nets.
Based on "in the transfer portal, has heard from Marquette" - it seems Shaka has one of the biggest nets out there!
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No he isn't doing anything all that unique, but if you view the recruiting process like a funnel, certain coaches are going to put less names into the top than others depending on the types of players they are looking for. Is Shaka one of those coaches that starts with less players on the front end? I have no idea. But it certainly isn't unheard of for coaches to cast more broad or more narrow nets.
When I wrote about doing nothing unique, I was referring to the system he runs/culture he wants to build/player he wants to coach. Shaka's not doing anything so unique that finding a player to fit is some great challenge.
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Shaka's not doing anything so unique that finding a player to fit is some great challenge.
C'mon now. Not every coach wants athletic players that can play defense and shoot the ball. Clearly that must be unique.
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2. I think Shaka seems to cast a more narrow net or at least he knows when to focus his time elsewhere. It seemed like we were constantly runner up for players like RJ Davis, Nico Mannion and Quentin Grimes when it may have been better for Wojo to use his time with recruits where we had a more realistic chance.
I don't think the difference you're suggesting actually exists.
What's the practical difference between Shaka going after Trimble and Bond and Holloman, and Wojo going after Grimes (KU) Manion (Arizona), and Davis (UNC)?
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What coach do you believe intentionally recruits high rated players that be believes aren't a fit? I imagine every coach believes he can make the players he signs fit. Otherwise, he wouldn't sign that player. And yes, even Wojo. He was bad at making them fit, but I doubt he went after players he didn't think would fit.
The whole thing is a rationalization. As Clarissa correctly notes, the vast majority of high-rated players out there would fit. Shaka isn't doing anything all that unique, guys.
Some coaches are systems coaches that recruit a specific type of player that works well within a specific system. Other coaches recruit the most talented players they can land and then change their system to fit their roster every year. Both methods can be effective (and ineffective). Buzz didn't land a litany of high ranked players, but he was a master at changing his strategy every season to fit the guys he had. Bo Ryan occasionally got high ranked players but they always fit his system and they played the same way almost every year. The best coaches are the ones who can do both.
Fit also refers to how a player fits in off the court. Sometimes, players have handlers or overinvolved family. Sometimes players make it clear that they are there for one year and then are going pro come hell or high water. Sometimes players clearly prioritize their personal stats over team success. Sometimes players just don't mesh personally with the rest of the team. I've met a coach who flat out refuses to recruit any local players because he had bad experiences with past local players who were too focused on their family and friends and not focused enough on the team. All coaches have varying degrees of comfort with different things. Some are really good at managing handlers or overinvolved parents and are happy to take on talented recruits that come with that baggage. Others don't have time for it and won't deal with those recruits. Neither way is "better" per say, but coaches should know their strengths.
I can tell you that Wojo was 100% happy to look past handlers/overinvolved parents and other players who weren't a fit for one reason or another simply because they were talented. And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you win, which he didn't. From what I've been told, Shaka tried to do that at Texas, found out that it didn't work for him, and is taking a different approach here. That doesn't mean that he doesn't want highly ranked players, just that they also have to fit the culture. I do also suspect that it also means that we won't see many one and dones targeted. To date, I've only seen Shaka offer one player who is thought to be a one and done and he was rated a lot lower when Shaka offered him and I haven't seen us mentioned since he blew up.
When I wrote about doing nothing unique, I was referring to the system he runs/culture he wants to build/player he wants to coach. Shaka's not doing anything so unique that finding a player to fit is some great challenge.
Did anyone say it was unique?
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No he isn't doing anything all that unique, but if you view the recruiting process like a funnel, certain coaches are going to put less names into the top than others depending on the types of players they are looking for. Is Shaka one of those coaches that starts with less players on the front end? I have no idea. But it certainly isn't unheard of for coaches to cast more broad or more narrow nets.
That reads more like putting the players in a meat grinder than in a blender.
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So you can’t point to any quotes which are similar to what was originally referenced.
Not surprising for a fraud like you.
Lol, no I’m not going to waste time going back and researching old recruiting articles when we all know they exist and there have been plenty of recruits that praised Wojo. If you’re pretending there aren’t, you’re just being disingenuous.
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Lol, no I’m not going to waste time going back and researching old recruiting articles when we all know they exist and there have been plenty of recruits that praised Wojo. If you’re pretending there aren’t, you’re just being disingenuous.
Lol you’re the one pretending. Just making stuff up, getting called out and then saying, “just trust me, they’re out there!”
You’re the biggest clown of all time. Can’t even remotely backup anything you say.
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Lol you’re the one pretending. Just making stuff up, getting called out and then saying, “just trust me, they’re out there!”
You’re the biggest clown of all time. Can’t even remotely backup anything you say.
I don't know that I agree on anything Farley has posted in the last month.
But I absolutely recall recruiting articles with quotes from wojo recruits praising the team dynamic or plan for development or culture or family or what-have-you.
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I mean cmon man -
Aidoo was a Wojo recruit and followed Gainey.
Tamar Bates committed to Shaka at Texas. He didn’t follow Shaka. Joplin, Ellis and Iterje all followed him so I’m not sure what you’re getting at there.
Shaka was late to the game on Bond/Trimble. Not his fault he just got hired a few months before their decisions. In that short amount of time, he ended up on both of their short lists and was seriously considered. Trimble was always a strong UNC lean because of family ties anyways.
In the short amount of time recruiting, he signed the Big 10 defensive player of the year and the A10 freshman of the year.
Find a new slant.
Let's recap:
You give Shaka kudos for not chasing stars.
In response, I point out the numerous stars he chased.
You respond with a list of reasons that he didn't land those stars. So you apparently recognize that Shaka actually did chase stars.
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Let's recap:
You give Shaka kudos for not chasing stars.
In response, I point out the numerous stars he chased.
You respond with a list of reasons that he didn't land those stars. So you apparently recognize that Shaka actually did chase stars.
Wojo chased after the highest ranked player regardless of team fit. That was very bad IMO and it showed with disjointed play on the court.
Shaka is going after players which fit into his system regardless of whether a kid is ranked 35th or 235th. It’s my opinion this is good.
I’ll start charging for this explanation if I have to repeat it for a fourth time in this thread lol.
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I don't know that I agree on anything Farley has posted in the last month.
But I absolutely recall recruiting articles with quotes from wojo recruits praising the team dynamic or plan for development or culture or family or what-have-you.
Farley can’t back up anything he says and he knows it. Thats my point with him.
He still can’t prove it and he won’t because he’s a coward.
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Farley can’t back up anything he says and he knows it. Thats my point with him.
He still can’t prove it and he won’t because he’s a coward.
Does that mean you agree with me that those articles/quotes exist?
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Does that mean you agree with me that those articles/quotes exist?
It means Farley can’t back up his claims.
Don’t waste your time with this.
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Wanted to wait till the season was over to respond to the Question of the Opening Post of This Thread. My answer is Yes for the following reasons:
1. Our Foundation is solid. We have a committed Administration, Our Facilities are Superb and Our Tradition is respectable.
2. As was pointed out in the opening post, MU and Nova were essentially in the same place when this version of the Big East was formed. Nova then went to the next level and we regressed a level. For starters, I believe MU can get back to the level it was at when the Big East started.
3. We have a 13 Year Veteran Coach with 291 career wins, who is 45 with a lot of good years left. He has gotten out of the gates at MU well . T expect we will get a few second weekend runs in the next 5 years as we upgrade our talent.
4. Our coach has a philosophy and style of play that is repeatable and attractive to quality players.
5. The Big East is a highly competitive and desirable conference to coach in. The roster of recognizable and charismatic coaches in the league continues grow. This makes it possible that our Coach would stay for the 15 years, or so ,necessary to build the winning reputation which is required to recruit the type of players a school can win multiple National Championships with.
I am very enthusiastic about our prospects in 2022-23 , just as I was going into this season.
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Farley can’t back up anything he says and he knows it. Thats my point with him.
He still can’t prove it and he won’t because he’s a coward.
If only there were a thing like the internet where you could find these things. Such as ...
“I really like them; that’s the only school I’ve taken an official visit to on my final list. They have a great culture there and they really take care of their players. The staff and the players have a great connection and the students really support the team. That part is really underrated there. That’s a special place.”
https://www.si.com/college/recruiting/basketball/daron-holmes-marquette-arizona-dayton-and-california-montverde-academy-recruiting
“Marquette was the first school to come to an open gym for me and they were also my first high-major offer. In addition, I have a great relationship with Coach DK and Wojo. And with Theo [John] leaving it would be a great fit.”
https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/11/16/21570721/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-recruiting-mac-micawber-etienne-final-four
“Marquette has a great support system; the students really come and support the basketball games. The coaching staff is cool and have a great culture.”
https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/9/24/21453688/marquette-golden-eagles-basketball-recruiting-daron-holmes-final-four-arizona-cal-dayton
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It means Farley can’t back up his claims.
Don’t waste your time with this.
You are being as disingenuous as he is
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If only there were a thing like the internet where you could find these things. Such as ...
“I really like them; that’s the only school I’ve taken an official visit to on my final list. They have a great culture there and they really take care of their players. The staff and the players have a great connection and the students really support the team. That part is really underrated there. That’s a special place.”
https://www.si.com/college/recruiting/basketball/daron-holmes-marquette-arizona-dayton-and-california-montverde-academy-recruiting
“Marquette was the first school to come to an open gym for me and they were also my first high-major offer. In addition, I have a great relationship with Coach DK and Wojo. And with Theo [John] leaving it would be a great fit.”
https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/11/16/21570721/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-recruiting-mac-micawber-etienne-final-four
“Marquette has a great support system; the students really come and support the basketball games. The coaching staff is cool and have a great culture.”
https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/9/24/21453688/marquette-golden-eagles-basketball-recruiting-daron-holmes-final-four-arizona-cal-dayton
Oh you mean the same guy that claims Marquette is closer to DePaul than Villanova without any facts to back it up ? That guy? Or the guy that equates Marquette’s rough stretch this year to the entirety of Wojo’s tenure?
You’re defending the guy who just said this - “I recall all those glowing quotes from 16 year olds about Wojo. If only praise from 16 year old kids won late and post season games.”
How does that quote make any sense?
I’m calling out a troll for being a troll and you’re defending him. Big yikes.
*this response goes for you too jesmu
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Agreed. I didn't see many, if any, players that would not have "fit Shaka's culture" in last night's game. We can try to find the diamond in the rough kid who works really hard, but Brad Davisons aren't getting you to the first Monday in April. Burger Boys are.
We recruited RJ Davis. Leaky Black was fringe top-100. Christian Braun and Ochai Agbaji were 3-star recruits. We're trying to find the same formula as those teams last night. Mostly 3/4 stars that you develop then mixing in top talent when you can get it.
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bake at 350 F for an hour and voila.
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Oh you mean the same guy that claims Marquette is closer to DePaul than Villanova without any facts to back it up ? That guy? Or the guy that equates Marquette’s rough stretch this year to the entirety of Wojo’s tenure?
You’re defending the guy who just said this - “I recall all those glowing quotes from 16 year olds about Wojo. If only praise from 16 year old kids won late and post season games.”
How does that quote make any sense?
I’m calling out a troll for being a troll and you’re defending him. Big yikes.
*this response goes for you too jesmu
I'm not defending anyone. I'm showing how wrong you were.
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I'm not defending anyone. I'm showing how wrong you were.
That’s a really weird way of saying that you’re siding with a troll.
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That’s a really weird way of saying that you’re siding with a troll.
Dude ... you said something that was obviously false and dared anyone to prove you wrong.
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Dude ... you said something that was obviously false and dared anyone to prove you wrong.
I dared the troll to prove me wrong. You helped the troll. Congrats Farley jr.
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I dared the troll to prove me wrong. You helped the troll. Congrats Farley jr.
I mean, if it's easy for someone "helping a troll", it still means you're wrong.
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I dared the troll to prove me wrong. You helped the troll. Congrats Farley jr.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dzejdg4U8AEzY6r.jpg:large)
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Safe to say "In before the lock"?
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Safe to say "In before the lock"?
A smarter man would be out before the lock, but here we both are.
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I just hope Shaka can pass his first test.
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My point all along is that he’s making baseless claims to support his moronic takes and has no plans on ever backing anything up.
I should’ve picked a more suitable point to take the stance like - Marquette is closer to DePaul than it is to Villanova, but I’m fed up with the troll and did this one.
He still has done nothing to back up any of his claims, but all of his plebes are backing him up. This isn’t about googling, it’s about Farley the clown.
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If only there were a thing like the internet where you could find these things. Such as ...
“I really like them; that’s the only school I’ve taken an official visit to on my final list. They have a great culture there and they really take care of their players. The staff and the players have a great connection and the students really support the team. That part is really underrated there. That’s a special place.”
https://www.si.com/college/recruiting/basketball/daron-holmes-marquette-arizona-dayton-and-california-montverde-academy-recruiting
“Marquette was the first school to come to an open gym for me and they were also my first high-major offer. In addition, I have a great relationship with Coach DK and Wojo. And with Theo [John] leaving it would be a great fit.”
https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/11/16/21570721/marquette-golden-eagles-mens-basketball-recruiting-mac-micawber-etienne-final-four
“Marquette has a great support system; the students really come and support the basketball games. The coaching staff is cool and have a great culture.”
https://www.anonymouseagle.com/2020/9/24/21453688/marquette-golden-eagles-basketball-recruiting-daron-holmes-final-four-arizona-cal-dayton
what??? no mention of scoop?? a very supportive and friendly site; the "go to" for advice. the "welcome wagon" of MU
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I dared the troll to prove me wrong. You helped the troll. Congrats Farley jr.
Dude you need to be on meds or something. This is the most bizarre take ever. You’re wrong. Everyone knows your wrong. You’re so obviously wrong that I’m not even going to waste time on something so obvious. Yet you some Joe turn that into me being cowardly and calling out anyone who proves you wrong as an accessory to trolling. What a weirdo.
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Dude you need to be on meds or something. This is the most bizarre take ever. You’re wrong. Everyone knows your wrong. You’re so obviously wrong that I’m not even going to waste time on something so obvious. Yet you some Joe turn that into me being cowardly and calling out anyone who proves you wrong as an accessory to trolling. What a weirdo.
You think Marquette is closer to Depaul than Villanova. End of conversation clown.
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You think Marquette is closer to Depaul than Villanova. End of conversation clown.
are you for real?
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are you for real?
We’re nowhere near Nova. We’re way further away from being Depaul. Depaul has won one NCAA tournament game since 1990. They haven’t had a winning conference record since 2006. Making any sort of Depaul comparison is extremely misguided.
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We’re nowhere near Nova. We’re way further away from being Depaul. Depaul has won one NCAA tournament game since 1990. They haven’t had a winning conference record since 2006. Making any sort of Depaul comparison is extremely misguided.
We’ve won 0 tourney games since 2013. Nova has won two national championships. We are far more likely to only win 1 tourney game in the next few decades than we are to win 2 national championship. You seem to think saying we are closer to DePaul means we are DePaul which speaks to your ability to comprehend words. If you imagine a line and at one end is DePaul and the other Nova, we are somewhere between DePaul and the half way point. Apparently that’s a ludicrous assertion that only a troll would make.
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How is this thread still around? The answer is still no. Anyone who thinks otherwise in delusional AF.
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Marquette to DePaul = 87.6 miles
Marquette to Villanova = 838 miles
Checkmate, suckers.
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Marquette to DePaul = 87.6 miles
Marquette to Villanova = 838 miles
Checkmate, suckers.
That probably is as accurate figuratively as it is literally
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We’ve won 0 tourney games since 2013. Nova has won two national championships. We are far more likely to only win 1 tourney game in the next few decades than we are to win 2 national championship. You seem to think saying we are closer to DePaul means we are DePaul which speaks to your ability to comprehend words. If you imagine a line and at one end is DePaul and the other Nova, we are somewhere between DePaul and the half way point. Apparently that’s a ludicrous assertion that only a troll would make.
DePaul has been one of the worst high major programs in the last 25 years. Find a new slant.
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I'm going to regret weighing in but,
It only took Nova 10 years to get from their low point under Jay Wright to where they are now (and only 4 years to get their first championship in that stretch).
It's taken DePaul 30 years to fall from relevance to where they are now.
It is equally unlikely that we have a 10 year stretch like Nova or 30 year stretch like DePaul, but it doesn't have to take long to have the stretch that Nova has had. It takes 3 times as long to have a stretch like DePaul has had.
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For the 100th time … Nova wasn’t “the next Nova” 9 years ago. They were coming off a 3-year stretch where they had 2 first-round losses and a 13-19 season. And there no doubt were NovaScoopers looking at MU going S16-S16-E8 in the same span going, “I wish we could be more like Marquette.”
Nobody can expect to win titles. To me “the next Nova” means being consistently excellent, always in the running for BE titles, always being a high seed - which gives you a better shot at deep tourney runs.
Or we can just say, “Never mind. It’s impossible for Marquette to be consistently excellent ever. We’re doomed to be nothing special ever again.”
Just like Nova was in 2013.