Can Marquette be "The Next Villanova"?

[muwarrior69]

Right now, next year could be a down year as I do not see a go to scorer if Lewis leaves.  Morsell and Kurth as well.
Mainly there defense.  It will be interesting the next month about bringing in new players with experience as Shaka has brought an exciting style of play to MU.

I thought this year would be a down year.

[muwarrior69]

I think it will be difficult for any program to be consistently good to contend for the National Championship. Consistently good enough to make the tournament, sure; but to actually win the title no. I say this because college ball is not the same as it was just a few years ago. With the instant transfers and players who have just one good season leaving to go pro (NBA. G-league, Europe) it will be tough to build a cohesive team year in and year out. I might be wrong. Just have to asasee how all this plays out.

[Viper]

Considering how close Villanova was to not being the next Villanova, yes, we certainly could. After 2012, the 9-seed followed by losing record despite Jay's best on paper recruiting had some fans thinking it was time to move on. It was Jay's second losing season at Villanova. No Marquette coach since before the days of Al survived two losing seasons, even with a gap in between like Wojo or Wright had. They stuck with him, he way overachieved in 2013-14 and kept it up since.

The odds of us becoming Villanova under Shaka are probably about as good as the odds Nova had of becoming Villanova under Jay Wright when the league reformed.

go back to Wright’s first 4 seasons at Nova. Fairly weak. But, he got it going and with 2012 being the exception, they’ve been stellar. Imagine this reinvented BE without them? Somewhat nondescript, imo.

[Shooter McGavin]

go back to Wright’s first 4 seasons at Nova. Fairly weak. But, he got it going and with 2012 being the exception, they’ve been stellar. Imagine this reinvented BE without them? Somewhat nondescript, imo.

Yep all good conferences need an alpha dog/dogs to carry the flag.  Hopefully a couple others in the Big East can step up and be more dominant on the national stage.  UConn is a definite possibility.  Marquette with Shaka?  Hope so.  Georgetown would be nice.  St. John’s and DePaul would be nice as well.  The big market teams need to step up. 

This conference has the bones to not be nondescript.  Some of the previously successful teams just need to step up.

[brewcity77]

go back to Wright’s first 4 seasons at Nova. Fairly weak. But, he got it going and with 2012 being the exception, they’ve been stellar. Imagine this reinvented BE without them? Somewhat nondescript, imo.

He did. I'm not trying to take anything away from Jay. He's great, one of the best in the business. But there was some thought that he might have peaked from 2005-2009 when the program really took off. The early 2010 loss, the 9/miss/9 run from 11-13, it looked like a program that wasn't going to be elite.

I'm glad 'Nova stuck with him and the league certainly needed it, particularly considering how far Marquette and Georgetown, who were supposed to be the big boys of the new conference, fell off almost immediately. But their rise was still improbable and unexpected. No one in 2012 would've imagined Villanova would win 2 of the next 6 NCAA titles.

I'm not saying we will get there, but right now programs like Villanova, Gonzaga, and Baylor are the gold standards. Programs like Auburn, Houston, and Texas Tech have all been to recent Final Fours and look poised to break through to that level. No one would've expected in 2013 we would be looking up to those programs. We live in an era where the right leadership can take you from good to elite, even obscure to elite, in a decade. If we have the right leader, we'll get there. Early returns are decent.

If we can become one of the best teams in this conference, then we can become the next Villanova because someone in this league will almost always be in that conversation. A lot will depend on the rest of the league. Do Cooley and/or Willard move on? Those are tough places to build programs if those guys go. Will Xavier, Butler, and Georgetown get their next hires right? How long will McDermott (57) and Jay (60) stick around?

It might take 10-15 years, but I think Marquette and UConn are the two best positioned to be the Big East elites after Jay leaves. Obviously Villanova will have an opportunity to stay in that conversation, and others can get there if they get the right guys in place, but I don't think it's unreasonable to hope we get there. We have the resources and institutional support, as long as we get the leadership right, there's no reason we can't do it.

But it requires patience, because it's highly unlikely it happens in the next 2-3 years.

[rgoode57]

Remember that Nova has one huge advantage over MU - geography.  The ability to recruit from NY, NJ, Baltimore, Wash DC metro area, Phila metro area, etc gives Nova a huge advantage.  Getting Justin Lewis out of Baltimore to come to MU is something that isn't going to happen very often. Yes, Nova has competition from a lot of schools for players in their area, but there are also a ton of very good players.  MU is going to have to figure out how to crack the Chicago market and St. Louis as well.

[brewcity77]

Remember that Nova has one huge advantage over MU - geography.  The ability to recruit from NY, NJ, Baltimore, Wash DC metro area, Phila metro area, etc gives Nova a huge advantage.  Getting Justin Lewis out of Baltimore to come to MU is something that isn't going to happen very often. Yes, Nova has competition from a lot of schools for players in their area, but there are also a ton of very good players.  MU is going to have to figure out how to crack the Chicago market and St. Louis as well.

I'm not sure I agree. At least in the sense that we can recruit that well. Ochefu, Arcidiacono, Hart, Jenkins, Bridges, and Booth may have been East Coasters forming the foundation of that first title team, but they were all four-star recruits outside the top-40. The only 5-star was Jalen Brunson, from Chicago, and even he was at the lower end of the five-star list (#22 per 247). They won not because of the big recruiting battles but rather because they recruited the right kind of guys. They prioritized culture over recruiting rankings and got the kind of guys that Marquette has been able to get for at least the last 20 years.

Honestly, it's one of the first things that really convinced me after Shaka was hired. The "all culture for two years" is the kind of focus it takes to win big. I also like that Shaka somewhat had his Jay Wright moment of coming up short with elite recruits at Texas. It takes the right leader and right recruits, but Tyler Kolek, O-Max, Kam Jones, David Joplin, Stevie Mitchell, Sean Jones, those look like the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable.

Bo Ryan made Wisconsin elite by getting the right three and four stars, mostly from this area. Jay Wright made Villanova elite the same way, again mostly in his area. You don't need a recruiting hotbed or elite recruiting rankings, you need to build a culture with the right guys and then keep getting guys that fit the culture regardless of recruiting rankings. That feels realistic and achievable.

[JakeBarnes]

I'm not sure I agree. At least in the sense that we can recruit that well. Ochefu, Arcidiacono, Hart, Jenkins, Bridges, and Booth may have been East Coasters forming the foundation of that first title team, but they were all four-star recruits outside the top-40. The only 5-star was Jalen Brunson, from Chicago, and even he was at the lower end of the five-star list (#22 per 247). They won not because of the big recruiting battles but rather because they recruited the right kind of guys. They prioritized culture over recruiting rankings and got the kind of guys that Marquette has been able to get for at least the last 20 years.

Honestly, it's one of the first things that really convinced me after Shaka was hired. The "all culture for two years" is the kind of focus it takes to win big. I also like that Shaka somewhat had his Jay Wright moment of coming up short with elite recruits at Texas. It takes the right leader and right recruits, but Tyler Kolek, O-Max, Kam Jones, David Joplin, Stevie Mitchell, Sean Jones, those look like the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable.

Bo Ryan made Wisconsin elite by getting the right three and four stars, mostly from this area. Jay Wright made Villanova elite the same way, again mostly in his area. You don't need a recruiting hotbed or elite recruiting rankings, you need to build a culture with the right guys and then keep getting guys that fit the culture regardless of recruiting rankings. That feels realistic and achievable.

This. All culture the first 2 years is in the same vein of how Wright runs that program. You go for fit and mentality first and then try and supplement with big talent when it makes sense (brunson was a godsend of a fit/talent combo--played with a chip on his shoulder, fit their culture to a T, and oozed talent)

[Viper]

I'm not sure I agree. At least in the sense that we can recruit that well. Ochefu, Arcidiacono, Hart, Jenkins, Bridges, and Booth may have been East Coasters forming the foundation of that first title team, but they were all four-star recruits outside the top-40. The only 5-star was Jalen Brunson, from Chicago, and even he was at the lower end of the five-star list (#22 per 247). They won not because of the big recruiting battles but rather because they recruited the right kind of guys. They prioritized culture over recruiting rankings and got the kind of guys that Marquette has been able to get for at least the last 20 years.

Honestly, it's one of the first things that really convinced me after Shaka was hired. The "all culture for two years" is the kind of focus it takes to win big. I also like that Shaka somewhat had his Jay Wright moment of coming up short with elite recruits at Texas. It takes the right leader and right recruits, but Tyler Kolek, O-Max, Kam Jones, David Joplin, Stevie Mitchell, Sean Jones, those look like the kind of guys that may not have had elite high school rankings but are putting in the effort and focusing on being really good at what they need to be good at and being coachable.

Bo Ryan made Wisconsin elite by getting the right three and four stars, mostly from this area. Jay Wright made Villanova elite the same way, again mostly in his area. You don't need a recruiting hotbed or elite recruiting rankings, you need to build a culture with the right guys and then keep getting guys that fit the culture regardless of recruiting rankings. That feels realistic and achievable.

what’s great about college basketball is that it doesn’t necessarily take long to reach the pinnacle. Two top shelf stars, with proper role players, and a big season can be had. The challenge is maintaining that level on a year-in year-out basis, which Jay has done.

[Goose]

I would not be as excited about the program if I did not think MU could be in the Nova type program conversation. Everything is in place for MU to make great strides over the next 3-4 years and my expectations are for MU is to be considered an elite program. Reaching Nova status is high bar but there are no excuses on why we cannot chase that dream.

[brewcity77]

what’s great about college basketball is that it doesn’t necessarily take long to reach the pinnacle. Two top shelf stars, with proper role players, and a big season can be had. The challenge is maintaining that level on a year-in year-out basis, which Jay has done.

Agreed. That's why I think the "only culture two years" is such a good plan. You get young guys in to build the foundation and make sure everyone knows the program goals and standards. Then by the time you start bringing in bigger recruiting targets, your young guys are now juniors and seniors that will make sure the newcomers, no matter how talented, know the expectation. It's also why I think Darryl was such a big building block. He shows not only how defense is the cornerstone, how a good defender calls out assignments and leads on that end, but also his offensive emergence from a guy that had never scored 20 to one of the offensive leaders shows all the young guys an example that allows Kolek, Kam, Ellis, Stevie, and everyone else here the idea that they could be the next Morsell if they put the work in.

It's easy to get caught up in the moment, I know I do more often than I probably should. The 7-game winning streak and highs of January made it look like we could put together a deep run this year and it sucks when you fall off that. But in terms of going forward, I feel so much better about the program than I did when Shaka was hired (and I loved the hire) because we're seeing the blueprint in action and you can envision how it will unfold in the coming years, especially if we win a game or two in the NCAAs this year or next.

Another thing worth looking at is the thread from Paint Touches on Twitter today. Marquette had the highest rate of usage for freshmen and sophomores in the league (sorry, can't link it where I am). We are currently 46 spots ahead of where kenpom had us in the preseason. We're dancing when the general consensus was that the NIT would be overachieving.

Here's the thing...Shaka had Texas as a top-10 team all of last year and a 3-seed in the NCAAs. I think he might have been thisclose to breaking through in Austin, but the combination of Abilene Christian with what looked like a trend allowed us to come in and snatch him up. Think less about Marquette and more about Shaka. Might Shaka have already been on the verge of becoming the next Jay Wright? After some early slip-ups with big recruits, he was running his program with mostly juniors and seniors. He sprinkled in a couple talented underclassmen. And had a 46% free throw shooter not sunk two FTs at the buzzer, it might have been Shaka and not Mick Cronin that came out of the East (Not sure UCLA would've had as easy a time with the Longhorns as they did with a physically overmatched ACU team).

But Abilene Christian was the bump in the road. Instead of a shot at the Final Four, Shaka had to take a step back and reset at a new job. So he gets set back 2-3 years and instead of Texas getting where he wanted them, he does it here. It might be less about Marquette becoming the next Villanova and more about Shaka Smart becoming the next Jay Wright and Marquette just happening to be the beneficiary.

[jfp61]

Short answer. No probably not. I think the rest of the league will be too good to allow this to happen. Nova had the perfect storm around them to achieve the run they had.

[Shooter McGavin]

Short answer. No probably not. I think the rest of the league will be too good to allow this to happen. Nova had the perfect storm around them to achieve the run they had.

The number of Big East championships yes. NCAA championships not necessarily.  Those teams were national title good no matter what conference they were in.  I’ll admit their seed may have been slightly lower if they had 1-2 more losses in conference with more elite competition at the top.

[BrewCity83]

Here's the thing...Shaka had Texas as a top-10 team all of last year and a 3-seed in the NCAAs. I think he might have been thisclose to breaking through in Austin, but the combination of Abilene Christian with what looked like a trend allowed us to come in and snatch him up. Think less about Marquette and more about Shaka. Might Shaka have already been on the verge of becoming the next Jay Wright? After some early slip-ups with big recruits, he was running his program with mostly juniors and seniors. He sprinkled in a couple talented underclassmen. And had a 46% free throw shooter not sunk two FTs at the buzzer, it might have been Shaka and not Mick Cronin that came out of the East (Not sure UCLA would've had as easy a time with the Longhorns as they did with a physically overmatched ACU team).

But Abilene Christian was the bump in the road. Instead of a shot at the Final Four, Shaka had to take a step back and reset at a new job. So he gets set back 2-3 years and instead of Texas getting where he wanted them, he does it here. It might be less about Marquette becoming the next Villanova and more about Shaka Smart becoming the next Jay Wright and Marquette just happening to be the beneficiary.

I love this angle.

[BobWildLoyalist]

Lets not lose sight of the next game, Creighton on Thursday. Success comes from creating a repeatable process and having the discipline to repeat that process over and over and over..

[MU82]

Agreed. That's why I think the "only culture two years" is such a good plan. You get young guys in to build the foundation and make sure everyone knows the program goals and standards. Then by the time you start bringing in bigger recruiting targets, your young guys are now juniors and seniors that will make sure the newcomers, no matter how talented, know the expectation. It's also why I think Darryl was such a big building block. He shows not only how defense is the cornerstone, how a good defender calls out assignments and leads on that end, but also his offensive emergence from a guy that had never scored 20 to one of the offensive leaders shows all the young guys an example that allows Kolek, Kam, Ellis, Stevie, and everyone else here the idea that they could be the next Morsell if they put the work in.

It's easy to get caught up in the moment, I know I do more often than I probably should. The 7-game winning streak and highs of January made it look like we could put together a deep run this year and it sucks when you fall off that. But in terms of going forward, I feel so much better about the program than I did when Shaka was hired (and I loved the hire) because we're seeing the blueprint in action and you can envision how it will unfold in the coming years, especially if we win a game or two in the NCAAs this year or next.

Another thing worth looking at is the thread from Paint Touches on Twitter today. Marquette had the highest rate of usage for freshmen and sophomores in the league (sorry, can't link it where I am). We are currently 46 spots ahead of where kenpom had us in the preseason. We're dancing when the general consensus was that the NIT would be overachieving.

Here's the thing...Shaka had Texas as a top-10 team all of last year and a 3-seed in the NCAAs. I think he might have been thisclose to breaking through in Austin, but the combination of Abilene Christian with what looked like a trend allowed us to come in and snatch him up. Think less about Marquette and more about Shaka. Might Shaka have already been on the verge of becoming the next Jay Wright? After some early slip-ups with big recruits, he was running his program with mostly juniors and seniors. He sprinkled in a couple talented underclassmen. And had a 46% free throw shooter not sunk two FTs at the buzzer, it might have been Shaka and not Mick Cronin that came out of the East (Not sure UCLA would've had as easy a time with the Longhorns as they did with a physically overmatched ACU team).

But Abilene Christian was the bump in the road. Instead of a shot at the Final Four, Shaka had to take a step back and reset at a new job. So he gets set back 2-3 years and instead of Texas getting where he wanted them, he does it here. It might be less about Marquette becoming the next Villanova and more about Shaka Smart becoming the next Jay Wright and Marquette just happening to be the beneficiary.

Several great posts in this thread, brewski.

Very excited about the future of our program ... and I'm not done thinking optimistically about this season yet!

[Silkk the Shaka]

If Shaka is still here in 10 years, we have a shot at it in years 11-15

[MU82]

Lets not lose sight of the next game, Creighton on Thursday. Success comes from creating a repeatable process and having the discipline to repeat that process over and over and over..

What does this even mean?

Is it your contention that if a bunch of fans discuss this topic on the interwebs, it somehow will hurt the team's preparation for Creighton?

[NCMUFan]

Why not the next UCLA of the mid 60s to mid 70s?

[BobWildLoyalist]

What does this even mean?

Is it your contention that if a bunch of fans discuss this topic on the interwebs, it somehow will hurt the team's preparation for Creighton?

You serious, Clark? It means JO'ing this topic doesnt mean anything. Recruit, coach, win, repeat. Jay Wrights stats between 2004 and 2007 dont mean anything, Shake must build and you must attend games because you're a fan. Does that make sense MU Eighty two?

[Viper]

Agreed. That's why I think the "only culture two years" is such a good plan. You get young guys in to build the foundation and make sure everyone knows the program goals and standards. Then by the time you start bringing in bigger recruiting targets, your young guys are now juniors and seniors that will make sure the newcomers, no matter how talented, know the expectation. It's also why I think Darryl was such a big building block. He shows not only how defense is the cornerstone, how a good defender calls out assignments and leads on that end, but also his offensive emergence from a guy that had never scored 20 to one of the offensive leaders shows all the young guys an example that allows Kolek, Kam, Ellis, Stevie, and everyone else here the idea that they could be the next Morsell if they put the work in.

It's easy to get caught up in the moment, I know I do more often than I probably should. The 7-game winning streak and highs of January made it look like we could put together a deep run this year and it sucks when you fall off that. But in terms of going forward, I feel so much better about the program than I did when Shaka was hired (and I loved the hire) because we're seeing the blueprint in action and you can envision how it will unfold in the coming years, especially if we win a game or two in the NCAAs this year or next.

Another thing worth looking at is the thread from Paint Touches on Twitter today. Marquette had the highest rate of usage for freshmen and sophomores in the league (sorry, can't link it where I am). We are currently 46 spots ahead of where kenpom had us in the preseason. We're dancing when the general consensus was that the NIT would be overachieving.

Here's the thing...Shaka had Texas as a top-10 team all of last year and a 3-seed in the NCAAs. I think he might have been thisclose to breaking through in Austin, but the combination of Abilene Christian with what looked like a trend allowed us to come in and snatch him up. Think less about Marquette and more about Shaka. Might Shaka have already been on the verge of becoming the next Jay Wright? After some early slip-ups with big recruits, he was running his program with mostly juniors and seniors. He sprinkled in a couple talented underclassmen. And had a 46% free throw shooter not sunk two FTs at the buzzer, it might have been Shaka and not Mick Cronin that came out of the East (Not sure UCLA would've had as easy a time with the Longhorns as they did with a physically overmatched ACU team).

But Abilene Christian was the bump in the road. Instead of a shot at the Final Four, Shaka had to take a step back and reset at a new job. So he gets set back 2-3 years and instead of Texas getting where he wanted them, he does it here. It might be less about Marquette becoming the next Villanova and more about Shaka Smart becoming the next Jay Wright and Marquette just happening to be the beneficiary.

very solid!

[BrewCity83]

Why not the next UCLA of the mid 60s to mid 70s?

Because that will never happen again.

[willie warrior]

Absolutely we should take over from Nova.

[Uncle Rico]

Absolutely we should take over from Nova.

Why?

[willie warrior]

Better resources, great history, coaching under Shaka, great fan base, and better lovers of the program, most right here on Scoop.

Why not?