2022-2023 NFL Season

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

According to Pro Football Reference, Mira only played in Milwaukee once (1966) and did not throw a pass.  He had one rushing attempt for one yard.

He may be conflating it with a game they played earlier that season in San Francisco, where the Niners upset the Packers. It looks like he had a fairly decent game that day.

[WhiteTrash]

I can never get enough George Mira discussion. I vote for a separate George Mira thread or board. Mira-scoop.com?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I can never get enough George Mira discussion. I vote for a separate George Mira thread or board. Mira-scoop.com?

He was the MVP of the 1974 World Bowl!  And the wikipedia entry from that game is amazing.

"Original plans for the World Bowl had the 1974 championship scheduled for November 29, the day after Thanksgiving 1974 at the Gator Bowl in Jacksonville, Florida. However, the WFL decided to expand its playoff field from four to six teams, pushing the championship back a week; furthermore, the host Jacksonville Sharks folded during the season, leading to the league moving the game to the home stadium of the higher seeded playoff team (in this case, Birmingham). A cash prize of $10,000 was brought onto Legion Field for the league's season MVP award, which was split between three players. The league presented the players with actual cash ($1 bills stacked on a table) in lieu of the standard practice of a check in order to avoid the scrutiny of a whether a WFL cheque would even clear the bank. However, after the ceremonies, the locker room of the champion Americans was raided and all team assets, including uniforms, were seized to collect on the team's debts. The day before the playoffs began the IRS had put lien on the Birmingham Americans over a $237,000 tax debt. The league negotiated a deal where the IRS allowed Birmingham to play in exchange for a portion of the gate receipts which were used to help pay off the debt. In addition, the Americans and Blazers players had gone unpaid for several weeks and refused to play until they were paid. It took Birmingham's owner Bill Putnam's promise of championship rings if they won and the league dividing the remaining gate receipts 60/40 (based on who won the game) to settle the dispute."

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I guess it depends on how you define running QBs. Steve Young, a spectacular runner, won a Super Bowl. Fran Tarkenton got to 3 Super Bowls. Roger Staubach -- often criticized in his younger days for scrambling too much -- was a multiple-time champion.

None of the above was a "better runner than passer," especially by the time he had his most career success, but neither was Wilson nor McNabb.

Plenty of other great-running QBs, including Vick, Cunningham and Culpepper, were good enough to get their teams to conference championship games -- which is as far as all-time great non-run-first QB Aaron Rodgers has taken the Packers in any of the last 11 years.

A team can win, and win pretty big, with a great running QB. But yes, it's very difficult to go all the way with one, especially one who'd truly be defined as a "better runner than passer" QB.

But there really aren't many of those. And most don't have enough longevity to stay healthy and/or great long enough for championship-level teams to be built around them. Cam Newton and Duante Culpepper seemed indestructible ... until they weren't.

The best of all worlds is a guy like Mahomes -- he's great in a normal pocket, great in a moving pocket, and a great scrambler when he has to be. But he's not a big guy, and I hope he has lasting power because he sure is fun to watch.

I mean you had to go back to the QBs who won the super bowl in 1994, 1977, and 1971, and made the super bowl in 1973-1976 to find examples. Young winning a super bowl 29 super bowls ago isn't really relevant to today's NFL. Running QBs were more of a novelty back then, defenses are much better equipped to handle them now then they were.

BTW, want to feel old? After this season, Steve Young's Super Bowl 29, will be in the "old" half of super bowls. His win will be closer in time to the first super bowl than the most recent super bowl. I still remember watching that game as a kid.

[lawdog77]

I mean you had to go back to the QBs who won the super bowl in 1994, 1977, and 1971, and made the super bowl in 1973-1976 to find examples. Young winning a super bowl 29 super bowls ago isn't really relevant to today's NFL. Running QBs were more of a novelty back then, defenses are much better equipped to handle them now then they were.

BTW, want to feel old? After this season, Steve Young's Super Bowl 29, will be in the "old" half of super bowls. His win will be closer in time to the first super bowl than the most recent super bowl. I still remember watching that game as a kid.

That brings up an interesting side topic. What is everyones first Superbowl memory?

My first memory is Lynn Swann against the Dallas Cowboys. SuperBowl X

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

That brings up an interesting side topic. What is everyones first Superbowl memory?

My first memory is Lynn Swann against the Dallas Cowboys. SuperBowl X

Yeah, that's mine as well.  A couple of years after that, McDonalds (of all places) put out some magazines on the history of the first 11 Super Bowls. I distinctly remember my dad getting them for me, and I would page through them in amazement. "The Chiefs won a Super Bowl???" 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1977-mcdonalds-history-super-bowl-430569069

[Uncle Rico]

That brings up an interesting side topic. What is everyones first Superbowl memory?

My first memory is Lynn Swann against the Dallas Cowboys. SuperBowl X

49ers goal line stand against the Bengals in Super Bowl XVI and Earl Cooper’s left-handed spike

[JWags85]

I mean you had to go back to the QBs who won the super bowl in 1994, 1977, and 1971, and made the super bowl in 1973-1976 to find examples. Young winning a super bowl 29 super bowls ago isn't really relevant to today's NFL. Running QBs were more of a novelty back then, defenses are much better equipped to handle them now then they were.

BTW, want to feel old? After this season, Steve Young's Super Bowl 29, will be in the "old" half of super bowls. His win will be closer in time to the first super bowl than the most recent super bowl. I still remember watching that game as a kid.

Ehh depends.  Are we talking "QB who uses run as a key part of their arsenal"?   Cause 2013 SF with Kaepernick, then back to back SBs for Seattle in 2014/2015 with Russell Wilson, then Cam Newton and Carolina the year after.  Seattle won in 2014, but then the others were 1 possession games until the end.  So its not at all crazy that their "running QB" led teams could have won a SB.

The QB has to be a good passer as well, but its not just Steve Young thats been successful in that mode at the highest level.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Fun fact...in Fran Tarkenton's last year as an NFL quarterback, he started all 16 games, lead the league in passing yards at 216 yards a game....and threw 32 INTs.

QB stats from back then are just wildly inefficient.

[Uncle Rico]

Fun fact...in Fran Tarkenton's last year as an NFL quarterback, he started all 16 games, lead the league in passing yards at 216 yards a game....and threw 32 INTs.

QB stats from back then are just wildly inefficient.

Things started to change with the elimination of hand checking beyond 5 yards and the advent of the west coast offense

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Things started to change with the elimination of hand checking beyond 5 yards and the advent of the west coast offense

Oh I know. I just think its funny for as much as quarterbacks are loathe to throw them now, I can just imagine ole Fran shrugging his shoulders, trotting off to the sidelines and lighting up a cigarette or something.

[MU82]

Ehh depends.  Are we talking "QB who uses run as a key part of their arsenal"?   Cause 2013 SF with Kaepernick, then back to back SBs for Seattle in 2014/2015 with Russell Wilson, then Cam Newton and Carolina the year after.  Seattle won in 2014, but then the others were 1 possession games until the end.  So its not at all crazy that their "running QB" led teams could have won a SB.

The QB has to be a good passer as well, but its not just Steve Young thats been successful in that mode at the highest level.

Yes, you beat me to it, Wags. Plenty of teams with outstanding running QBs (and some would argue better-running-than-passing QBs if you're talking about Newton and Kaepernick) have been championship-level teams in recent years. And yes, the examples I gave of older QBs works, too.

Fun fact...in Fran Tarkenton's last year as an NFL quarterback, he started all 16 games, lead the league in passing yards at 216 yards a game....and threw 32 INTs.

QB stats from back then are just wildly inefficient.

The Dolphins won back-to-back Super Bowls after the 1972 and 1973 seasons. Bob Griese, who called his own plays, threw a TOTAL of 18 passes in those two games. I remember reading Sports Illustrated's account of SB7 (the one at the end of the perfect season), and it said something like, "And then Griese did something that nobody in the stadium expected -- he threw a pass. To his tight end. On FIRST DOWN!" It was another world back then QB-stats wise.

That brings up an interesting side topic. What is everyones first Superbowl memory?

My first memory is Lynn Swann against the Dallas Cowboys. SuperBowl X

The first SB I actually sat down and watched was 7, with the Dolphins ("my team" back then) beating Washington to cap their unbeaten season. So if we're talking memorable moments, Yepremian's "pass" that got intercepted and kept Wash in the game. Had he made the kick there, it would have been a 17-0 win to cap a 17-0 season, which would have been perfect as the season. Instead, it was nail-biting time until the Dolphins' famed "No-Name Defense" put the game away.

I was a huge Csonka fan, so the way he ran all over the Vikings the following year is a great memory. But I like your choice of the Swann game. He was brilliant, and amazing to watch because he was so smooth and graceful and measured before he'd kill the opponent -- a silent assassin.

The two guys I just mentioned -- Csonka and Swann -- had absolutely perfect names to describe how they played football!

[tower912]

That brings up an interesting side topic. What is everyones first Superbowl memory?

My first memory is Lynn Swann against the Dallas Cowboys. SuperBowl X

Garo Yepremian's non-kick.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Ehh depends.  Are we talking "QB who uses run as a key part of their arsenal"?   Cause 2013 SF with Kaepernick, then back to back SBs for Seattle in 2014/2015 with Russell Wilson, then Cam Newton and Carolina the year after.  Seattle won in 2014, but then the others were 1 possession games until the end.  So its not at all crazy that their "running QB" led teams could have won a SB.

The QB has to be a good passer as well, but its not just Steve Young thats been successful in that mode at the highest level.

You missed the original post, I mentioned all of those examples. 1 running QB has won a SB in the past almost 30 years.  4 have lost in the Super Bowl. In that time at least 25 other QBs have made the super bowl

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Also, the year Steve Young won the Super Bowl, he rushed for 18.3 yards a game. That would have been good for 18th among QBs last season. Not counting his 5 game rookie season, he never rushed for more than 37.7 yards a game in a season. That would have been good for 5th last season. Given how much more prolific Young's passing was compared to his running, I don't know that I would label him a running QB, at least not in the sense that it's used today.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Steve Young was a quarterback who could run. He wasn't a "running quarterback."

[wadesworld]

Amari Rodgers let go.  About 4 years too late.

The dude had the most fumbles of any non-quarterback in the NFL this season.  Think about that.  He plays like 4 snaps a game.  That's mind boggling.  More than Geno Smith, Tom Brady, Lamar Jackson, Russell Wilson, Joe Burrow, Davis Mills, and Kirk Cousins.

[JWags85]

You missed the original post, I mentioned all of those examples. 1 running QB has won a SB in the past almost 30 years.  4 have lost in the Super Bowl. In that time at least 25 other QBs have made the super bowl

I didn't miss any posts.  I didn't need to go back to Steve Young.

In the last 10 SBs, 11 different QBs played.  4 of them were "running QBs".  And thats not including Mahomes who rushes 70 times a season which is substantially more than most QBs.

But we shall see.  Of the top 5 teams in the NFL right now, 3 have "running QBs" in the Bills, Eagles, and Ravens.

[4everwarriors]

Starr...McGee...Touchdown, aina?

[MU82]

Steve Young was a quarterback who could run. He wasn't a "running quarterback."

When he got his NFL start with a bad Tampa Bay team, Young often had to be a "running for his life quarterback"!

And in his early years with SF, when he'd replace an injured Montana, he did stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbPwwmEcws0

But yes, by the time he actually was ready to replace Montana as the triggerman for the prolific SF offense, he was more of a pocket passer -- and a damn good one for many years.

His career arc was fairly similar to Staubach's: He was a scrambler (which isn't really the same as a "running QB") before becoming a great pocket passer who could run when necessary.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

When he got his NFL start with a bad Tampa Bay team, Young often had to be a "running for his life quarterback"!

And in his early years with SF, when he'd replace an injured Montana, he did stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbPwwmEcws0

That's exactly what I mean. That was a pass play where he scrambled.  That wasn't some sort of RPO or designed run like you see these days.

[MU82]

That's exactly what I mean. That was a pass play where he scrambled.  That wasn't some sort of RPO or designed run like you see these days.

Yes.

His career arc was fairly similar to Staubach's: He was a scrambler (which isn't really the same as a "running QB") before becoming a great pocket passer who could run when necessary.

[JWags85]

When he got his NFL start with a bad Tampa Bay team, Young often had to be a "running for his life quarterback"!

And in his early years with SF, when he'd replace an injured Montana, he did stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbPwwmEcws0

But yes, by the time he actually was ready to replace Montana as the triggerman for the prolific SF offense, he was more of a pocket passer -- and a damn good one for many years.

His career arc was fairly similar to Staubach's: He was a scrambler (which isn't really the same as a "running QB") before becoming a great pocket passer who could run when necessary.

Those really good years in the early 90s, he still ran A LOT for the era.  He was in the high 60s to 70s in terms of number of carries.  That would be above average for a QB even now.  He was clocked at 4.55 in the 40 coming out of BYU.  He absolutely would have been running RPOs in the modern game.

But this is all belaboring the point.  If you can’t throw as a QB, you won’t have success.  If you leave the pocket at the first available moment you won’t have success.  Russell Wilson showed that you can be a running QB and be very successful and healthy as long as you pick your moments.  Lamar Jackson has been a wild success as a running weapon QB while also being an efficient passer.  Jalen Hurts was more a runner than a passer coming out of college, he’s not a pocket passer by any stretch, and he’s in the top 2 in the MVP hunt.  Josh Allen is a dual threat whose becoming a superstar on a very dangerous team.

The NFL is always changing.  And I think the notion of “running QBs can’t win” is eroding, so long as they are in the proper scheme.  Many of the ”failed” mobile QBs of the 2000s and 2010s were a bit ahead of their time and in archaic systems.  If RG3 played for the Harbaugh Ravens in his early 20s or for Brian Daboll, I truly think he’d have not only stayed more healthy, but also been a star.

[MU82]

Those really good years in the early 90s, he still ran A LOT for the era.  He was in the high 60s to 70s in terms of number of carries.  That would be above average for a QB even now.  He was clocked at 4.55 in the 40 coming out of BYU.  He absolutely would have been running RPOs in the modern game.

But this is all belaboring the point.  If you can’t throw as a QB, you won’t have success.  If you leave the pocket at the first available moment you won’t have success.  Russell Wilson showed that you can be a running QB and be very successful and healthy as long as you pick your moments.  Lamar Jackson has been a wild success as a running weapon QB while also being an efficient passer.  Jalen Hurts was more a runner than a passer coming out of college, he’s not a pocket passer by any stretch, and he’s in the top 2 in the MVP hunt.  Josh Allen is a dual threat whose becoming a superstar on a very dangerous team.

The NFL is always changing.  And I think the notion of “running QBs can’t win” is eroding, so long as they are in the proper scheme.  Many of the ”failed” mobile QBs of the 2000s and 2010s were a bit ahead of their time and in archaic systems.  If RG3 played for the Harbaugh Ravens in his early 20s or for Brian Daboll, I truly think he’d have not only stayed more healthy, but also been a star.

I remember very well (as I'm sure you and most Scoopers do) the hype around Vick. He was THE FUTURE OF THE NFL! Except he wasn't, because there are very few human beings who can be both an electric runner and a very good passer. Newton was similar (though larger), Allen, Mahomes, Jackson. Each has had success. But as you stated, you obviously have to be able to throw the ball with competence. Those who also can make adjustments on the fly, read defenses, etc, will end up the best.

For all the hype surrounding Allen -- who is great, and I love watching him -- he makes some incredibly huge mistakes. He simply can't have the kind of mistakes he made last game if the Bills actually are going to win it all with him. But he's still relatively young, he's clearly super-talented, and I like his chances of being great.

Is Josh Allen a "running quarterback"? Well, it all depends on definitions. He's a heck of a quarterback who is a fantastic runner.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Whenever I watch Josh Allen I think "that's Brett Favre."  Huge arm, very talented, a gunslinger, and a decent scrambler.  They just call more pure running plays for Allen because that's what people do now.  Mike Holmgren would never have done that for Favre.