2022 MLB Thread

[DegenerateDish]

AL MVP race between Vlad, Robert, Buxton is going to be fun.

[dgies9156]

So YOU are willing to risk HIS health for your enjoyment.

Isn't that special?

Horsecrap.

It's all in how you pitch. Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Ferguson Jenkins, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichal, Steve Carlton and Bert Blyleven pitched complete games on opening day regularly. These guys pitched 300 innings regularly. Hell, Gibson had a 1.12 ERA in 1968 and was so overpowering that Baseball changed the rules by lowering the mound.

If Red Schoendiest came out to get Gibson for any reason, Gibson would be one of the orneriest human beings around.

So don't give me this nonsense. Stop whining and start pitching!

[cheebs09]

I am shocked the Cardinals fan is stuck in the 1960’s way of thinking.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I am shocked the Cardinals fan is stuck in the 1960’s way of thinking.

Bravo!  Brafuggino!

[tower912]

Should have pitched Rick Ankiel 300 innings, too.   That would have fixed him.

[Jockey]

No issues with pulling Kershaw. 

June, let him ride.  April, 2nd start.  Pitch count is smart.

Our annual day of agreement. Woo Hoo!

[Jockey]

Horsecrap.

It's all in how you pitch. Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Ferguson Jenkins, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichal, Steve Carlton and Bert Blyleven pitched complete games on opening day regularly. These guys pitched 300 innings regularly. Hell, Gibson had a 1.12 ERA in 1968 and was so overpowering that Baseball changed the rules by lowering the mound.

If Red Schoendiest came out to get Gibson for any reason, Gibson would be one of the orneriest human beings around.

So don't give me this nonsense. Stop whining and start pitching!

More "we were tough guys back in my day" nonsense.

Drysdale was done at 32. Marichal was just another Guy by 34. Fidrych threw 24 complete games at 21 years old. At 22, he was done. Mark Prior was useless by 24. Kerry Wood by 25. Koufax done at 30.

The list of these sissies go on and on and on.

[dgies9156]

Should have pitched Rick Ankiel 300 innings, too.   That would have fixed him.

Beats putting him in the outfield.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Horsecrap.

It's all in how you pitch. Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Ferguson Jenkins, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichal, Steve Carlton and Bert Blyleven pitched complete games on opening day regularly. These guys pitched 300 innings regularly. Hell, Gibson had a 1.12 ERA in 1968 and was so overpowering that Baseball changed the rules by lowering the mound.

If Red Schoendiest came out to get Gibson for any reason, Gibson would be one of the orneriest human beings around.

So don't give me this nonsense. Stop whining and start pitching!

Chuck Bednarik used to play both ways in the NFL too.  The game evolves.

[Uncle Rico]

Horsecrap.

It's all in how you pitch. Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Ferguson Jenkins, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichal, Steve Carlton and Bert Blyleven pitched complete games on opening day regularly. These guys pitched 300 innings regularly. Hell, Gibson had a 1.12 ERA in 1968 and was so overpowering that Baseball changed the rules by lowering the mound.

If Red Schoendiest came out to get Gibson for any reason, Gibson would be one of the orneriest human beings around.

So don't give me this nonsense. Stop whining and start pitching!

Baseball was better when popcorn was a nickel

[dgies9156]

More "we were tough guys back in my day" nonsense.

Drysdale was done at 32. Marichal was just another Guy by 34. Fidrych threw 24 complete games at 21 years old. At 22, he was done. Mark Prior was useless by 24. Kerry Wood by 25. Koufax done at 30.

The list of these sissies go on and on and on.

Brother Jockey:

Injuries are as much a part of pitching today as they were in the 1960s. The good news is sports medicine has advanced rapidly and pitchers who in the 1960s would have been washed up, today get treatment and surgeries that prolong their careers.

That said, Gibson and Seaver were remarkably free of injuries. For Gibson, as I recall, his only trip to the DL was in 1967. He went to the DL because Roberto Clemente bounced a line drive off his shinbone. Koufax injured his pitching elbow in a sliding mishap in 1962 (I believe) and had to ice it down after every game to reduce swelling. He walked away from the game in 1967 at the top of his game. I believe he won 27 games that year.

Drysdale had a rotator cuff injury. Like, that doesn't happen today!

Fidrych, I believe, was injured in his second season and rushed back by Management of the Detroit Tigers because he was worth a near sell-out at Tiger Stadium. At a time when 18,000 fans in the park was a good draw. Because he came back too soon Fidrych's mechanics changed and he hurt his arm. He was the never the same

We can go back and forth in a pitching bull session all night. What I will say is pitching longevity is a combination of luck, control and mechanics. When the mechanics of a person's delivery change, the potential for injury increases as a pitcher puts unnecessary strain on muscles, tendons and bones.

[Hards Alumni]

Prediction:  Brewers will win 100 games this year.

Best pitching staff in the majors, looks like a better offensive team than last year's 95 win season, and the division looks to be weaker (Reds, Cubs and Pirates don't look to be very competitive).

Hope not, but I do fear I lit some money on fire last month with my 88.5 U wager.

[PGsHeroes32]

So I know we can all argue all day on the topic with both sides having points. But my last thing about the Kershaw pulling, is that there is really nothing historically to back it up in terms of "being safe".

Passan is talking about it on sporscenter now as well. How hes done four years of research and there is nothing out there about why arms break down and the causes.

There is absolutely nothing to support that by Kershaw throwing 25 extra pitches on April 12th his arm is more likely to give out.

2nd inning of his next start it could be bye bye elbow regardless. It can happen in a bullpen session.

Baseball in regards to pitching has turned far too much into safe "assumption" rather than feel of the current game. Whether its protecting pitchers from injury or pulling a pitcher because stats say third time through is bad. Even though those stats blantantly dont account for a pitcher being dominant that current start.

[Lennys Tap]

Horsecrap.

It's all in how you pitch. Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Ferguson Jenkins, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichal, Steve Carlton and Bert Blyleven pitched complete games on opening day regularly. These guys pitched 300 innings regularly. Hell, Gibson had a 1.12 ERA in 1968 and was so overpowering that Baseball changed the rules by lowering the mound.

If Red Schoendiest came out to get Gibson for any reason, Gibson would be one of the orneriest human beings around.

So don't give me this nonsense. Stop whining and start pitching!

Brother dgies,

Pitchers in general throw much harder than they did when we were young, so much more stress on elbows and shoulders. Hitters swing harder, too. Oblique injuries? Never heard of one until maybe 6 or 7 years ago. Today they’re common.

[muwarrior69]

Brother dgies,

Pitchers in general throw much harder than they did when we were young, so much more stress on elbows and shoulders. Hitters swing harder, too. Oblique injuries? Never heard of one until maybe 6 or 7 years ago. Today they’re common.

I don't think they had speed guns back in the 30s, 40s, or 50s to compare how hard a pitcher is pitching. So there is no way to know. Carl Yastrzemski batted just 301 in 1968 to win the AL batting title. The pitchers back then must have pitched pretty hard to keep an entire league batting under 300 for a season, or every batter just had trouble with the curve?

...and Yaz played at Fenway a hitters park.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I don't think they had speed guns back in the 30s, 40s, or 50s to compare how hard a pitcher is pitching. So there is no way to know. Carl Yastrzemski batted just 301 in 1968 to win the AL batting title. The pitchers back then must have pitched pretty hard to keep an entire league batting under 300 for a season, or every batter just had trouble with the curve?

...and Yaz played at Fenway a hitters park.

The mound was taller and the strike zone was bigger.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

AL MVP race between Vlad, Robert, Buxton is going to be fun.

Anderson says hello

[MUBurrow]

Brother dgies,

Pitchers in general throw much harder than they did when we were young, so much more stress on elbows and shoulders. Hitters swing harder, too. Oblique injuries? Never heard of one until maybe 6 or 7 years ago. Today they’re common.

Yep.  And add to that the prevalence of curveballs and big sliders, which make your arm fall off.

For funsies, I tried to look up a little about Bob Gibson's pitch selection.  Best I could find was that his fastball sat in the low 90s - around 92, and per a 1987 LA Times article he also had a "slider" that came in at around 90 mph.  I am guessing that today we would characterize Gibson's slider as a cutter, which I believe is also generally a safer pitch to throw for arm health.

[muwarrior69]

The mound was taller and the strike zone was bigger.

I'll concede the mound but home plate has never changed in size so how could the strike zone be bigger. Don't tell me the umps had a bigger strike zone either. In 1968 there were about 9600 strikeouts and in 2019 there were about 21000 strikeouts in the AL. Even taking that the league is 50% bigger the number of strikeouts in 1968 would be about 14-15k.

[dgies9156]

I'll concede the mound but home plate has never changed in size so how could the strike zone be bigger. Don't tell me the umps had a bigger strike zone either. In 1968 there were about 9600 strikeouts and in 2019 there were about 21000 strikeouts in the AL. Even taking that the league is 50% bigger the number of strikeouts in 1968 would be about 14-15k.

Brother Warrior:

But hitters are swinging for the fences in much greater proportion than they did in the 1960s. Blame steroids if you must, but they are. Back then, it was just before we saw the likes of Dave Kingman, the precursor of the modern hitter.

The strike zone has changed -- from the shoulders and knees when I was a kid to middle of the chest to the knees.

I'll also argue the talent is far more diluted than it was in 1968.

[panda]

I'll concede the mound but home plate has never changed in size so how could the strike zone be bigger. Don't tell me the umps had a bigger strike zone either. In 1968 there were about 9600 strikeouts and in 2019 there were about 21000 strikeouts in the AL. Even taking that the league is 50% bigger the number of strikeouts in 1968 would be about 14-15k.

Up until recently, umpires balls/strikes calls were not reviewed by the league which led to much more liberal, personalized, strike zones.

Now that umps are graded, it's a much more uniformed, tighter, accurate zone.

[Jockey]

Brother Jockey:

Injuries are as much a part of pitching today as they were in the 1960s. The good news is sports medicine has advanced rapidly and pitchers who in the 1960s would have been washed up, today get treatment and surgeries that prolong their careers.

That said, Gibson and Seaver were remarkably free of injuries. For Gibson, as I recall, his only trip to the DL was in 1967. He went to the DL because Roberto Clemente bounced a line drive off his shinbone. Koufax injured his pitching elbow in a sliding mishap in 1962 (I believe) and had to ice it down after every game to reduce swelling. He walked away from the game in 1967 at the top of his game. I believe he won 27 games that year.

Drysdale had a rotator cuff injury. Like, that doesn't happen today!

Fidrych, I believe, was injured in his second season and rushed back by Management of the Detroit Tigers because he was worth a near sell-out at Tiger Stadium. At a time when 18,000 fans in the park was a good draw. Because he came back too soon Fidrych's mechanics changed and he hurt his arm. He was the never the same

We can go back and forth in a pitching bull session all night. What I will say is pitching longevity is a combination of luck, control and mechanics. When the mechanics of a person's delivery change, the potential for injury increases as a pitcher puts unnecessary strain on muscles, tendons and bones.

I wasn't disagreeing 100% with what you said. But baseball is a different game today. There is way more stress on a pitcher's arm than there was 50 years ago - or even 20 years ago. With the high speed cameras available now, pitching is about velocity and spin.

Gibson averaged 92-95 mph on his fastball with the highest recording at 98. Guys now average 95-97 topping out at 100 or more.

Young pitchers simply can't throw as many innings as you want. Never could. Never will. Look at the Oakland A's when Billy Martin threw all of his young pitchers mega innings - 94 complete games. None was competitive again. Most were gone from the game within a couple years - still in their early to mid-20s.

[muwarrior69]

So YOU are willing to risk HIS health for your enjoyment.

Isn't that special?

Tell that to every fan that watches a prize fight or a hockey game or even a formula one auto race. What your saying is they watch to see these performers get hurt?  That's like taking Markus Howard out of game because he can get hurt when he has chance to set scoring record. They want to see the best and the athletes know the risk of getting injured.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't think they had speed guns back in the 30s, 40s, or 50s to compare how hard a pitcher is pitching. So there is no way to know. Carl Yastrzemski batted just 301 in 1968 to win the AL batting title. The pitchers back then must have pitched pretty hard to keep an entire league batting under 300 for a season, or every batter just had trouble with the curve?

...and Yaz played at Fenway a hitters park.

Dead ball, higher mound, bigger strike zone.

Joel Horlen and Gary Peters never hit 90 on their best day. In 1967 Horlen had a 2.08 ERA over 258 innings. Peter’s was 2.28 in 260.

[muwarrior69]

Up until recently, umpires balls/strikes calls were not reviewed by the league which led to much more liberal, personalized, strike zones.

Now that umps are graded, it's a much more uniformed, tighter, accurate zone.

So a more liberalized strike zone back then accounted for less strikeouts and lower batting averages?