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Author Topic: 2022 MLB Thread  (Read 1986 times)

MUBurrow

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2021, 09:45:56 AM »
Agreed, seemed like a very reasonable trade for both sides. Buying the two decent prospects for the cost of Bradley makes sense. Renfroe should do well in Milwaukee at a reasonable price in 2022, and then we’ll see if they tender him in 2023 knowing it’ll cost above $10 mil.

Sweet deal for JBJ too. He gets his contract and gets to go back to where he'd rather be anyway. I wonder if the Sox think they can probably get a little more out of him than the Brewers did.  Heck, if he has his typical 3 week Willie Mays run like he's had every season except for 2021, his overall numbers wouldn't look so bad.

JWags85

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2021, 10:35:52 AM »
Hahah, I like how the Cy Young is a bit more accolades.  Haha.  Its pretty funny, he is comparable in that he isn't really comparable at all, at least to Ray.
Stroman for the most part is pretty consistent.  He isn't going to K a bunch of guys or BB a bunch of guys, but he is going to give you good innings and a pretty good ERA and a chance to win most of the games he pitches. 

Ray gives you a much higher ceiling as a pitcher.  He clearly has the stuff to dominate (as evidenced by winning a Cy Young pitching for the Blue Jays).  But he can also be terrible.  He is going to strike out a ton more guys, and walk a ton more guys.  If he is the guy he was last year then his deal is a great deal.  If he is the guy he was in 2020, its a terrible deal.  If he is the guy he was in 2019, its an overpay, but not quite hideous. 

So in the end, its funny that they are a bit comparable, because their results are so completely different.

I meant a bit collectively cause Gausman was an All Star.  But Stroman had a better season in 2021 than when he was an All Star a few years back as well as when he finished in the top 10 for the Cy Young.

Stroman has a career WAR of 18.1 and a WHIP of 1.26, only 1 season of a WAR under 1.5 since he became a regular starter. 

Ray has a career WAR of 15.1, a WHIP of 1.32, and literally 2 seasons OVER 1.5 WAR, 2021 and 2017.

Stroman has had a better overall career by those metrics and arguably more potential for consistent production over a 5 year period.  Ray had a really good 2021 but he wasn't some unreal world beater.

Gausman for comparison, 16.9 WAR, 1.29 WHIP.

None of these guys are a DeGrom, Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer type.  But I think they all project pretty similarly over a 5 year span.  Its not like Ray was knocking on the door of Cy Young's before he finally got through.  It was kind of out of nowhere. 

Interestingly, none of the 3 have had any post season experience since their early-mid 20s.

DegenerateDish

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2021, 10:57:22 AM »
Sweet deal for JBJ too. He gets his contract and gets to go back to where he'd rather be anyway. I wonder if the Sox think they can probably get a little more out of him than the Brewers did.  Heck, if he has his typical 3 week Willie Mays run like he's had every season except for 2021, his overall numbers wouldn't look so bad.

Totally agree with you, JBJ probably will feel a sense of "going home" back to Boston. He's not going to be an All Star, but you're right, the Red Sox most likely value JBJ more than any other team would because they know him.

I think it's a great deal for the Brewers too. Renfroe is exactly the type of player from a production/salary standpoint that fits what they need. I'd rather pay Renfroe $7.5 - $8 mil (whatever final number he'll get in arb) than Avi Garcia at $12 mil (or if they would have given Garcia the QO).

GB Warrior

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2021, 11:17:46 AM »
Totally agree with you, JBJ probably will feel a sense of "going home" back to Boston. He's not going to be an All Star, but you're right, the Red Sox most likely value JBJ more than any other team would because they know him.

I think it's a great deal for the Brewers too. Renfroe is exactly the type of player from a production/salary standpoint that fits what they need. I'd rather pay Renfroe $7.5 - $8 mil (whatever final number he'll get in arb) than Avi Garcia at $12 mil (or if they would have given Garcia the QO).

This is a win all around. The Brewers realistically saved money from Avi for an equal or better player and dumped JBJs salary. The prospects had a plus skill or two, but either had real question marks, wouldn't help in the near future, or were blocked by other prospects.

Would like to say that the $10M or so that they save could get them another bat, but think it's more likely that growth comes within given the arbitration deals they need to afford.

buckchuckler

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2021, 11:29:40 AM »
I meant a bit collectively cause Gausman was an All Star.  But Stroman had a better season in 2021 than when he was an All Star a few years back as well as when he finished in the top 10 for the Cy Young.

Stroman has a career WAR of 18.1 and a WHIP of 1.26, only 1 season of a WAR under 1.5 since he became a regular starter. 

Ray has a career WAR of 15.1, a WHIP of 1.32, and literally 2 seasons OVER 1.5 WAR, 2021 and 2017.

Stroman has had a better overall career by those metrics and arguably more potential for consistent production over a 5 year period.  Ray had a really good 2021 but he wasn't some unreal world beater.

Gausman for comparison, 16.9 WAR, 1.29 WHIP.

None of these guys are a DeGrom, Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer type.  But I think they all project pretty similarly over a 5 year span.  Its not like Ray was knocking on the door of Cy Young's before he finally got through.  It was kind of out of nowhere. 

Interestingly, none of the 3 have had any post season experience since their early-mid 20s.

Yeah, I pretty much agree, which is why I said Stroman is more consistent.  He has clearly been better than Ray over his career to this point.  But what Ray did last season was next level.  If he keeps that up, he could really our perform his contract, and Stroman.   

Of the three, Stroman would have been the last one I wanted, but I also think he is the most likely to deliver what you expect. 
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JWags85

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2021, 11:53:57 AM »
Yeah, I pretty much agree, which is why I said Stroman is more consistent.  He has clearly been better than Ray over his career to this point.  But what Ray did last season was next level.  If he keeps that up, he could really our perform his contract, and Stroman.   

Of the three, Stroman would have been the last one I wanted, but I also think he is the most likely to deliver what you expect.

Thats fair.  I just don't see any trend or history to support that with Ray.  But we'll see.

CTWarrior

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2021, 12:15:40 PM »
The prospects aren't nothing, but it opens up $2MM this year, and if Renfroe has another good year the Brewers should have to pay him about what they would have had to pay JBJ not to play for them.
As a Red Sox fan, don't love or hate this move.  It was basically buying the two prospects the same way they bought Ottavino last year to get a prospect.  Not much of a fan of either MLB players right now.  Renfroe has an excellent arm but is otherwise a below average outfielder and he is streaky hitter that goes into long slumps.  Having JBJ back allows the Red Sox to move Hernandez back to second and maybe pick up an outfield bat (Schwarber?) for next season.  But that only helps if JBJ can hit at least like a 2nd baseman, and at this point that doesn't seem likely.
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Jockey

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2021, 01:14:22 PM »
Rob Manfred being the same jerk that he always is.

Within minutes of the lockout, all player likenesses were removed from all MLB sites.

jesmu84

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2021, 01:15:12 PM »
A 7 minute meeting?

No way this season starts before May.

buckchuckler

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2021, 01:35:56 PM »
Thats fair.  I just don't see any trend or history to support that with Ray.  But we'll see.

Well the history clearly isn't there.  If it was he would have gotten 300 million.  The big difference in him last year was control.  He averaged 2.4 bb/9 after averaging almost 8 last season (and over 4 for his career - if you leave out 20 and 21 -- and 3.9 if you include them.)  The most concerning thing about him last year is that he had an abnormally high strand %.  Other than that, most of his numbers were pretty much in line with the rest of his career. 

It really comes down to control.  If he can limit his BBs to 2-3 per 9, he will be incredible effective.  If he can't, then he will struggle.    I didn't look into his strike %, chase rates, etc, because it isn't worth the time. His strand rate will get worse, it has to, and that will likely lead to more runs.  But K's can cover a lot of warts too.  And he has always gotten plenty of those.

In the seasons where he has had a BB/9 under 4 (still pretty high) he has been over a 3 WAR player (by both fangraphs and bbref).  That's the roll of the dice on him.
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2021, 01:58:28 PM »
Rob Manfred being the same jerk that he always is.

Within minutes of the lockout, all player likenesses were removed from all MLB sites.

I think its because in the absence of a CBA, they aren't allow to use their likeness.  But regardless, this is really such a non-issue.


A 7 minute meeting?

No way this season starts before May.

It's just posturing.  Nothing is going to happen without deadlines. 
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ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2021, 07:26:36 PM »
Rob Manfred being the same jerk that he always is.

Within minutes of the lockout, all player likenesses were removed from all MLB sites.

MLB is legally obligated to remove the images in the absence of a CBA.  But just read the headline.

Now, they players that are changing their socials to have just a grey silhouette are funny.

GB Warrior

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2021, 10:08:47 AM »
The MLB website is very funny to me.

Editor: "Can you write me something evergreen?"

Writer: "Here you go - when do you think it'll run?"

Editor: "..."

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2021, 06:19:40 PM »
The old-folks committee just put a bunch of guys in the Hall of Fame ...

Six candidates earned election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame on Sunday via the Eras Committee process, it was announced today on MLB Network.

Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Miñoso and Tony Oliva were elected by the Golden Days Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot comprised of candidates whose primary contribution to the game came from 1950-69.

Bud Fowler and Buck O’Neil were elected by the Early Baseball Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot of candidates whose primary contribution the game came prior to 1950.
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Jockey

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2021, 08:25:03 PM »

Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Miñoso and Tony Oliva were elected by the Golden Days Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot comprised of candidates whose primary contribution to the game came from 1950-69.


I'd take Dick Allen before any of those four - and it wouldn't even be close. 22nd all time OPS+ ahead of guys like Aaron, Mays, Robinson, DiMaggio, and Thomas.

Lennys Tap

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2021, 08:37:06 PM »
The old-folks committee just put a bunch of guys in the Hall of Fame ...

Six candidates earned election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame on Sunday via the Eras Committee process, it was announced today on MLB Network.

Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Miñoso and Tony Oliva were elected by the Golden Days Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot comprised of candidates whose primary contribution to the game came from 1950-69.

Bud Fowler and Buck O’Neil were elected by the Early Baseball Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot of candidates whose primary contribution the game came prior to 1950.


Saturnino Orestes (Minnie) Minoso was my favorite player growing up. I wore #9 at every opportunity in all sports because of him.

I was out of college and not quite as star struck when Dick Allen (who came up 1 vote short) joined the Sox - but he remains #2 on my all time list.

CTWarrior

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2021, 12:53:01 PM »
The old-folks committee just put a bunch of guys in the Hall of Fame ...

Six candidates earned election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame on Sunday via the Eras Committee process, it was announced today on MLB Network.

Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Miñoso and Tony Oliva were elected by the Golden Days Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot comprised of candidates whose primary contribution to the game came from 1950-69.

Bud Fowler and Buck O’Neil were elected by the Early Baseball Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot of candidates whose primary contribution the game came prior to 1950.


I was rooting for Minoso, Allen and O'Neil. 

Hodges and O'Neil are of an interesting type that doesn't get recognized by the Hall too much.  Guys who were very good but not quite Hall of Fame players who made other contributions (manager of the 69 Mets for Hodges, Negro Leagues Manager, first black MLB coach and scout and all-around ambassador for the game for O'Neil).  I was rooting for O'Neil just because of Ken Burns documentary and everything I've read about him.  He seems to be a genuinely wonderful guy.

It is just terrible that Minoso and O'Neil, who lived to be 89 and 95, respectively, got elected after they passed away and couldn't enjoy their election.  Minoso missed a few MLB seasons on the front end of his career due to segregation and that may have cost him an earlier election.

Happy for Kaat and Oliva that they will get to enjoy being HOFers while still here on Earth.  Both border line guys (Oliva because of shortened career due to knees and Kaat being more of a complier than a great pitcher in his peak), but not bad selections and I am happy for them.

Allen was hurt by playing in a pitcher dominated era that make his numbers look less impressive than they actually were, coupled with a relatively short career.  I thought for sure he was going in this year.
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Calvin:  Nobody thinks I'm a genius.

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2021, 02:08:02 PM »
I was rooting for Minoso, Allen and O'Neil. 

Hodges and O'Neil are of an interesting type that doesn't get recognized by the Hall too much.  Guys who were very good but not quite Hall of Fame players who made other contributions (manager of the 69 Mets for Hodges, Negro Leagues Manager, first black MLB coach and scout and all-around ambassador for the game for O'Neil).  I was rooting for O'Neil just because of Ken Burns documentary and everything I've read about him.  He seems to be a genuinely wonderful guy.

It is just terrible that Minoso and O'Neil, who lived to be 89 and 95, respectively, got elected after they passed away and couldn't enjoy their election.  Minoso missed a few MLB seasons on the front end of his career due to segregation and that may have cost him an earlier election.

Happy for Kaat and Oliva that they will get to enjoy being HOFers while still here on Earth.  Both border line guys (Oliva because of shortened career due to knees and Kaat being more of a complier than a great pitcher in his peak), but not bad selections and I am happy for them.

Allen was hurt by playing in a pitcher dominated era that make his numbers look less impressive than they actually were, coupled with a relatively short career.  I thought for sure he was going in this year.

Buck O'neill was fantastic in the Ken Burns series.

Jockey

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2021, 04:28:36 PM »
I think its because in the absence of a CBA, they aren't allow to use their likeness.  But regardless, this is really such a non-issue.


It's just posturing.  Nothing is going to happen without deadlines.

The players have been scrubbed from the league’s website and content ecosystem. Their headshots were removed from rosters, their highlights hidden, their names wiped from promotional schedules. Team social media accounts quieted and ceased referencing players at all; MLB Network and MLB.com employees were instructed to mostly avoid mentioning active 40-man players’ names on air or in articles for the duration of the lockout.


You're absolutely right that it is posturing - but, it is just dumb. Eventually their product will be back on the field and they are going to want fans to care - even if those in Manfred's office don't.

I think this highlights the way the Commissioner's has changed over the years (mostly driven by Bud Selig). Whereas the Office used to be concerned about the "good/integrity of the game", it is now just the owner's labor negotiator and little else other than the punishment arm of the league.

https://theathletic.com/3002495/2021/12/07/on-mlb-owned-media-the-players-now-barely-exist-whats-behind-that-decision/

From the article:
"In maintaining their stance, MLB will try not to use players’ names or likenesses for promotional or commercial purposes during the lockout, the league said. Yet, as of Monday, MLB continued to sell player jerseys, with player names and numbers, through its websites."


They call it principle. They are lying - it is merely $$$$$.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2021, 04:32:59 PM by Jockey »

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2021, 07:42:44 PM »
They can’t use the player’s likenesses in the absence of a CBA. 

And as for the commissioner being an extension of the owners. I mean…no sh*t. That’s been the case for decades. They hired him. 
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Mutaman

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2021, 08:07:11 PM »
Buck O'neill was fantastic in the Ken Burns series.

I always enjoyed his story about seeing Babe Ruth hit a ball and hearing a special unique sound, and then hearing that same sound when he saw Josh Gibson, and then not hearing that sound again for many many years until he saw Bo Jackson.
If you ever saw about Jackson play baseball live and in person, you knew exactly what he was talking about. Not to mention Jackson's skills defensivly -greatest arm i ever saw.

GB Warrior

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2022, 05:58:32 PM »

JWags85

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2022, 06:02:11 PM »

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2022, 10:46:26 AM »
Jon Lester, a real good pitcher with some Hall bonafides, officially retires.

https://theathletic.com/news/former-cubs-red-sox-pitcher-jon-lester-retires-with-200-wins-3-world-series-rings/hJFtIofIJeQl/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983

Jon Lester, a three-time World Series champion with the Cubs and Red Sox, a 200-game winner and one of the best free-agent signings in Chicago sports history, announced his retirement Wednesday on ESPN.com.

Known for his consistency and composure in the biggest games and biggest markets, Lester made 30-plus starts in 12 consecutive seasons between 2008 and 2019. Lester posted a 2.51 ERA in 154 career postseason innings, cementing his reputation as one of the best big-game pitchers from his era and making a case for serious Hall of Fame consideration.

Lester, who turned 38 last week, had signaled that the 2021 season would very likely be his last in the majors. Winning his 200th game — in a Cardinals uniform after a midseason trade from the Nationals — checked off one of his career goals.

“It’s kind of run its course,” Lester told ESPN’s Jesse Rogers. “It’s getting harder for me physically. The little things that come up throughout the year turned into bigger things that hinder your performance.

“I’d like to think I’m a halfway decent self-evaluator. I don’t want someone else telling me I can’t do this anymore. I want to be able to hand my jersey over and say, ‘Thank you, it’s been fun.’ That's probably the biggest deciding factor.”
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

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jficke13

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2022, 01:24:19 PM »
Buck O'neill was fantastic in the Ken Burns series.

Ah Ken Burns' series "Baseball, which only exists in New York City and maybe Boston and begrudgingly LA and San Francisco but only for purposes of examining how it affected baseball in New York City."

 

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