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Author Topic: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster  (Read 4541 times)

brewcity77

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2021, 10:04:58 AM »
Jay Whitehead > Jimmy Mac for the 2nd team, especially if the NBA seems to be included. Now if the best player-advantaged NBA contract is the criteria, then Mac is first team all by himself.

That's a good call. I included Mac mostly because he's rather unique as a rim protector. I could easily bump Mac from the team, or move him to reserves and drop Kojis.
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Galway Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2021, 10:09:01 AM »
Tom Crean's mission is complete: George Thompson was left off MU's All-time Team.

The Godfather of Marquette Basketball was was left off MU's All-time Team.

The true scoring champion was left off MU's All-time Team.

It's a sad day for Scoop, a sad day for #mubb.

I don't think you can call Thompson the true scoring champion. Howard in three years scored more, and then if you normalize the 3pt makes for 2pts because Thompson didn't have a 3pt line then Howard ends up with 1,999pts. Thompson was a damn good player but to call still call him the true scoring champ is a stretch.
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The Lens

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2021, 10:48:51 AM »

These are the types of lines that gets people to roll their eyes about the past..  Markus has more points and more points per game.  In what way is George Thompson the "true scoring champion?"

I don't think you can call Thompson the true scoring champion. Howard in three years scored more, and then if you normalize the 3pt makes for 2pts because Thompson didn't have a 3pt line then Howard ends up with 1,999pts. Thompson was a damn good player but to call still call him the true scoring champ is a stretch.

I stand corrected, while it took Markus 4 years to get the scoring title, he did pass George as a junior.  My bad.

That being said, if you don't have George front and center on the All-Time #MUBB roster you either don't understand MU hoops or you're Tom Crean (and those aren't mutually exclusive).
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Goose

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2021, 10:55:13 AM »
Lens

I am betting on not understanding MU hoops.

MU82

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2021, 10:59:22 AM »
Jay Whitehead > Jimmy Mac for the 2nd team

Reasonable, and probably right.

Tom Crean's mission is complete: George Thompson was left off MU's All-time Team.

The Godfather of Marquette Basketball was was left off MU's All-time Team.

The true scoring champion was left off MU's All-time Team.

It's a sad day for Scoop, a sad day for #mubb.

Is this blog post the one and only, judge and jury "MU All-Time Team"? It's some guy on the interwebs giving his opinion.

Unless you meant that as teal-less teal. If so, good job.
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The Lens

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2021, 11:20:49 AM »
Reasonable, and probably right.

Is this blog post the one and only, judge and jury "MU All-Time Team"? It's some guy on the interwebs giving his opinion.

Unless you meant that as teal-less teal. If so, good job.

When I talk of George, teal is never used or implied.  While I was born 6 years after George exhausted his eligibility, I'm just glad to be raised in a home that appreciated his place in #mubb.
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Billy Hoyle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2021, 12:39:08 PM »
not even a mention of Hutch? SMH.
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The Lens

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2021, 12:47:23 PM »
not even a mention of Hutch? SMH.

That is a bummer but it's a testament to the talent that has walked through that door since 1998.  We've been lucky.
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TAMU Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2021, 08:22:05 AM »
Decided to try my own All Time MUBB roster. Looked at both what players did at MU as well as what they did in the pros. Not a top 15 players list but a top roster, so there are some specialists in there.

Starters:
George Thompson
Dwyane Wade
Jimmy Butler
Maurice Lucas
Jim Chones

Bench:
Dean Meminger
Don Kojis
Wesley Matthews
Jae Crowder
Jerome Whitehead

Reserves:
Butch Lee
Doc Rivers
Earl Tatum
Bo Ellis
Steve Novak

This is not an easy exercise.
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The courage to change the things I can,
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muwarrior69

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2021, 10:57:56 AM »
I don't think you can call Thompson the true scoring champion. Howard in three years scored more, and then if you normalize the 3pt makes for 2pts because Thompson didn't have a 3pt line then Howard ends up with 1,999pts. Thompson was a damn good player but to call still call him the true scoring champ is a stretch.

George did not have the shot clock either which limited possessions. This is what happens when you compare athletes who play under different rules, impossible to say who is better, all-time, top 15 or whatever. Yes, I'm an old-timer and lived seeing all the players except Kojis and they're all pretty great.

I just wonder will MU have a player in the next 10-15 years that we will be arguing about being an "all-time" great.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 11:06:12 AM by muwarrior69 »

Galway Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2021, 01:56:05 PM »
George did not have the shot clock either which limited possessions. This is what happens when you compare athletes who play under different rules, impossible to say who is better, all-time, top 15 or whatever. Yes, I'm an old-timer and lived seeing all the players except Kojis and they're all pretty great.

I just wonder will MU have a player in the next 10-15 years that we will be arguing about being an "all-time" great.

Thanks for pointing that out, my response to shot clock would be this:

https://www.coloradoan.com/story/sports/csu/mens-basketball/2015/05/22/college-basketball-shot-clock/27797929/

It could be valid for the individual though, who knows. Like you, I hope in the next 10-15 years we're at least talking about more than 1 player. At least from Crean and Buzz there's a decent worthy of opening that discussion for but Wojo had one that's it.

Also why does nobody give Terry Rand any love? He was the leading scorer and rebounder for the team that "started" MU hoops.
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dgies9156

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2021, 04:32:37 PM »
Being one of the old codgers, who saw most of the guys Cracked Sidewalks listed play, geez, folks, you can do better than that.

Here's my list for comparison:

The Butch and Bo Show -- You can't have a Greatest Ever list without these guys. Pure and simple. They got these guys right.

Dean Meminger -- They got Dean right too.

Maurice Lucas -- The catalyst behind the 1974 National Runner-up Team. Lucas left after 1974 and, while the 1974-1975 team was good, if Lucas had stayed another year, we might have won the Natty that year. He was THAT Good.

Jim Chones -- Don't kid youself. This guy was among the best ever to don a Warrior uniform. Don't believe me? Look what happened in 1972 after he left for the pros. We were on a collision course with UCLA for a Natty, being undefeated before Chones left. The Saturday after he was gone, we lost 70-49 to Detroit. To Detroit, forgodssake. We made the tournament that year but did not get out of the regional semifinal. Retire the man's jersey, will you?

Dwyane Wade -- OK, this guy was with us for only slightly more time than Chones and yet many think of him as the greatest Warrior ever. Darn, he was good. His pro career was the best of any Warrior ever. That Kentucky game will live forever in Warrior history. Is he better than Meminger or Lee? If he had brought us a natty, maybe. But he didn't.

Beyond these six, I'd list next five as follows:

 -- Earl Tatum
 -- Lloyd Walton
 -- Jeral McNeal
 -- George Thompson -- He put the program on the map and probably should be in the Top group.
 -- Don Kojis

Scoop Snoop

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2021, 04:40:37 PM »
Being one of the old codgers, who saw most of the guys Cracked Sidewalks listed play, geez, folks, you can do better than that.

Here's my list for comparison:

The Butch and Bo Show -- You can't have a Greatest Ever list without these guys. Pure and simple. They got these guys right.

Dean Meminger -- They got Dean right too.

Maurice Lucas -- The catalyst behind the 1974 National Runner-up Team. Lucas left after 1974 and, while the 1974-1975 team was good, if Lucas had stayed another year, we might have won the Natty that year. He was THAT Good.

Jim Chones -- Don't kid youself. This guy was among the best ever to don a Warrior uniform. Don't believe me? Look what happened in 1972 after he left for the pros. We were on a collision course with UCLA for a Natty, being undefeated before Chones left. The Saturday after he was gone, we lost 70-49 to Detroit. To Detroit, forgodssake. We made the tournament that year but did not get out of the regional semifinal. Retire the man's jersey, will you?

Dwyane Wade -- OK, this guy was with us for only slightly more time than Chones and yet many think of him as the greatest Warrior ever. Darn, he was good. His pro career was the best of any Warrior ever. That Kentucky game will live forever in Warrior history. Is he better than Meminger or Lee? If he had brought us a natty, maybe. But he didn't.

Beyond these six, I'd list next five as follows:

 -- Earl Tatum
 -- Lloyd Walton
 -- Jeral McNeal
 -- George Thompson -- He put the program on the map and probably should be in the Top group.
 -- Don Kojis

Yep, he sure did. I remember how George would, after securing a rebound, hold the ball with his elbows extended and swung them vigorously back and forth on his way down, just in case a foolish defender tried to take it from him.
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                Excerpt from a Steinbeck novel.

MuggsyB

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2021, 08:56:38 PM »
Yep, he sure did. I remember how George would, after securing a rebound, hold the ball with his elbows extended and swung them vigorously back and forth on his way down, just in case a foolish defender tried to take it from him.

Who's on your all cool team Scoop Snoop?

Wade
Meminger
Thompson
Lucas
Chones

I'm just taking a guess.

Perhaps Sam Worthen?

MU82

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2021, 10:09:00 PM »
Dwyane Wade -- OK, this guy was with us for only slightly more time than Chones and yet many think of him as the greatest Warrior ever. Darn, he was good. His pro career was the best of any Warrior ever. That Kentucky game will live forever in Warrior history. Is he better than Meminger or Lee? If he had brought us a natty, maybe. But he didn't.

Meminger didn't "bring us a natty," either.

Dean and D-Wade both all-timers.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2021, 10:40:58 PM »
Dwyane Wade is a top 25 basketball player of all time. Top 40 at the absolute worst. I don't see any reasonable argument to put Wade behind Lee, Meminger, or any other MU alum for that matter.
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MU82

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2021, 10:59:32 PM »
Dwyane Wade is a top 25 basketball player of all time. Top 40 at the absolute worst. I don't see any reasonable argument to put Wade behind Lee, Meminger, or any other MU alum for that matter.

Well, if you're talking about who the best players were during their Marquette days, one could make a case for others. But yes, when considering overall bodies of work, Wade is by far the best basketball player to have ever worn a Marquette jersey.

The only other guy in the same zip code is Lucas, a multiple NBA and ABA All-Star and key contributor to a championship team. I guess maybe Jimmy would be third based on his very good showing at MU and a fine NBA career so far.

No other former Warrior/Golden Eagle averaged even 13 points in his NBA career. Wes is fourth at 12.6. Chones and Kojis put up some decent NBA numbers, and Rivers and Jae were/are good role players.

As great as our history is, especially obviously the Al and Crean/Buzz eras, Marquette has produced surprisingly few NBA standouts.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

Scoop Snoop

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2021, 08:22:06 AM »
Who's on your all cool team Scoop Snoop?

Wade
Meminger
Thompson
Lucas
Chones

I'm just taking a guess.




Perhaps Sam Worthen?

Thanks for asking Muggs and a very good guess. I'm going to punt on providing additional names though. I knew that this thread would make the massive wildfires out West look like campfires by comparison. It is impossible to fairly compare players from the 60's and 70's to post 1985 players. The earlier players had to sit out their freshman years, had only 2 point baskets, no shot clock which resulted in long periods of burning the clock at their coach's instruction, and a shorter season. Comparing scoring records with post 1985 players is ridiculous. One poster included their success as pros in his evaluation (??), others have accused old codgers of being hopelessly living in the past, etc. And they do have a point, but the past sometimes is much more fun than the present.

Dgies's comment about George was the tripwire for me. It brought back memories of his "take no prisoners" style of play before rule changes tamed players like him. Today he would be ejected for planting his elbow in an opponent's face after securing a rebound in his patented style. 
"Your words don't mean anything to me. Argument doesn't have any effect on me."
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dgies9156

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2021, 08:22:16 AM »
Dwyane Wade is a top 25 basketball player of all time. Top 40 at the absolute worst. I don't see any reasonable argument to put Wade behind Lee, Meminger, or any other MU alum for that matter.

1977 NCAA Champions

1970 NIT Champions

There is your argument. Please note that the NIT back then was a bigger deal than it is today. There were only 24 teams in the NCAA back then. These are the two biggest moments in Marquette Athletic history.

Brother Snoop, the Captain of the "all Cool" Team would be Bob Lackey, pure and simple. My favorite Warrior of all time.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 08:26:27 AM by dgies9156 »

Galway Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2021, 09:01:01 AM »
1977 NCAA Champions

1970 NIT Champions

There is your argument. Please note that the NIT back then was a bigger deal than it is today. There were only 24 teams in the NCAA back then. These are the two biggest moments in Marquette Athletic history.

Brother Snoop, the Captain of the "all Cool" Team would be Bob Lackey, pure and simple. My favorite Warrior of all time.

Yes the NIT was considerably better back then. No, it is not the second most impressive feat in school history when the field was as follows (at selection day):

Army: Unranked
Cincy: 19
Duke: unranked
Duquesne: Unranked
Georgetown: Unranked
Georgia Tech: Unranked
LSU: unranked
Louisville: unranked
Manhattan: unranked
Marquette: 9
Massachusetts:unranked
Miami (OH): unranked
UNC: unranked
Oklahoma: unranked
SJU: unranked
Utah: Unranked

The fact that the NIT was considerably better has gotten way overblown in older scoopers heads to the level that people are thinking it was on par with the NCAA at the time.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 09:23:33 AM by Galway Eagle »
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TAMU Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2021, 09:11:29 AM »
1977 NCAA Champions

1970 NIT Champions

There is your argument. Please note that the NIT back then was a bigger deal than it is today. There were only 24 teams in the NCAA back then. These are the two biggest moments in Marquette Athletic history.

Meminger's NIT championship is better than Wade's Final Four? I don't buy that.

Lee won one more NCAAT game in 1977 than Wade did in 2003 while being surrounded by better teammates. I don't think that makes up for Wade being a significantly better player than Lee.

Lee/Meminger are first ballot MU hall of famers. Wade is a first ballot hall of famer.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Scoop Snoop

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2021, 09:18:48 AM »
Yes the NIT was considerably better back then. No, it is not the second most impressive feat in school history when the field was as follows:

Army: Unranked
Cincy: 19
Duke: unranked
Duquesne: Unranked
Georgetown: Unranked
Georgia Tech: Unranked
LSU: unranked
Louisville: unranked
Manhattan: unranked
Marquette: 9
Massachusetts:unranked
Miami (OH): unranked
UNC: unranked
Oklahoma: unranked
SJU: unranked
Utah: Unranked

The fact that the NIT was considerably better has gotten way overblown in older scoopers heads to the level that people are thinking it was on par with the NCAA at the time.

Scratch me off your list older scoopers who thought it was "on par" with the NCAA. No way. That's why there was such an uproar when Al turned down the NCAA bid. We knew it was a pretty big step down.

Edit: At least it was a decent (then) tourney that we won. I don't want to dismiss it just because it was not the NCAA.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 09:44:21 AM by Scoop Snoop »
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                Excerpt from a Steinbeck novel.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2021, 09:33:37 AM »
Meminger's NIT championship is better than Wade's Final Four? I don't buy that.

Lee won one more NCAAT game in 1977 than Wade did in 2003 while being surrounded by better teammates. I don't think that makes up for Wade being a significantly better player than Lee.

Lee/Meminger are first ballot MU hall of famers. Wade is a first ballot hall of famer.

Butch is  the only MU alum to win national player of the year and NCAAT MOP. Has to be ahead of Dean.

dgies9156

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2021, 09:46:13 AM »
OK gang, I'll make it easy:

1) Guys that are "automatics" as the best ever
  Butch Lee
  Bo Ellis
  Maurice Lucas
  Dwyane Wade

2) Guys that definitely are debated anytime the question arises as to the best ever
  Don Kojis
  George Thompson
  Dean Meminger
  Jim Chones
  Earl Tatum
  Jeral McNeal
  Glenn Rivers

3) Guys who get mentioned, especially by anyone who became an MU fan after 1980:
  Jim McIllivane
  Jerome Whitehead
  Tony Smith
  Wes Matthews
  Jae Crowder
  Steve Novak
  Bernard Toone
 
4) Guys that I like but won't get more than a mention
  Bob Lackey
  Markus Howard
 
I'm sure I'm leaving some folks off, but this is the break down of how I would see our history. If Sam hadn't transferred, I'd have him in Group 4 too.


MuggsyB

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2021, 09:50:39 AM »
1977 NCAA Champions

1970 NIT Champions

There is your argument. Please note that the NIT back then was a bigger deal than it is today. There were only 24 teams in the NCAA back then. These are the two biggest moments in Marquette Athletic history.

Brother Snoop, the Captain of the "all Cool" Team would be Bob Lackey, pure and simple. My favorite Warrior of all time.

Oh...I forgot about Lackey.  I've heard he was coolness personified and of course had an all-time badass nickname.