Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster

[NYWarrior]

Todd had a bit of fun building this one ... good off-season fodder, enjoy

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2021/07/the-all-time-marquette-15-man-roster.html

[MuggsyB]

Chones?  I'm not sure about Doc.

[Lennys Tap]

No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

[MuggsyB]

No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

Oh...right.  Great points Lenny.  Where are these guys?? And I also agree about Tony Smith.

[MU82]

Yeah, that's not the best list. Missed at least a half-dozen players as good as or better than most listed. But he did kind of apologize in advance for leaving out some guys from Marquette's only great basketball era.

[Badgerhater]

No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

More and more MU fans do not who those players are.   

[naginiF]

More and more MU fans do not who those players are.

Be prepared for 800 "then they need to learn their history" replies.

Like all fan bases......folks love to idolize the good ole days

Edit to add: any list like this is going to have either 51% like or hate it and it'll drive discussion in the off season. The logic behind the picks seems reasonable

[MuggsyB]

More and more MU fans do not who those players are.

They know Lucas, Meminger, Lee, and Ellis but not Kojis, Thompson, Chones, Tatum, and Smith.  I'm not sure I buy that.

[Its DJOver]

Todd had a bit of fun building this one ... good off-season fodder, enjoy

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2021/07/the-all-time-marquette-15-man-roster.html

Nice list.  Always going to have a bit of subjectivity, but I think you balanced old school and new school well.  Also think it was smart to name it "top roster" not just top 15 players, because, nothing against him, but it's tough to say that a 6-3 200lb forward deserves a spot on the top roster, with the way the game and positions has changed the last 60 years.

[Lennys Tap]

They know Lucas, Meminger, Lee, and Ellis but not Kojis, Thompson, Chones, Tatum, and Smith.  I'm not sure I buy that.

+1.

Regarding “balancing” old and new - if our last 10 years had produced what 1968 -1977 did - an NCAA championship, an NCAA runner up, a bunch of Elite 8s, and an NIT title - and 10 straight years in the top 10 - and the previous 50 years combined didn’t add up to anything remotely close - how do you think this “all time team” would be “balanced”

Jimmy Mac would be embarrassed to be picked over Jimmy Chones. Leaving George or Kojis off is ridiculous. Ditto Earl Tatum.

[Herman Cain]

I watched Kojis many times in the pros and he was a helluva player . He George Thompson and Earl Tatum we’re all truly exceptional college players .

[MuggsyB]

+1.

Regarding “balancing” old and new - if our last 10 years had produced what 1968 -1977 did - an NCAA championship, an NCAA runner up, a bunch of Elite 8s, and an NIT title - and 10 straight years in the top 10 - and the previous 50 years combined didn’t add up to anything remotely close - how do you think this “all time team” would be “balanced”

Jimmy Mac would be embarrassed to be picked over Jimmy Chones. Leaving George or Kojis off is ridiculous. Ditto Earl Tatum.

Lenny,  you have very strong points here. I was born in '83 but know that the players you listed were apparently forgotten by the writer.  Perhaps he lost focus and will admit he whiffed badly.

[mileskishnish72]

No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

Lenny, you're right on.

[muwarrior69]

No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

All Time Yankee Team: Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Reggie Jackson, Thurmon Munson, Derek Jeter.

What! No Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra?

[muwarrior69]

Nice list.  Always going to have a bit of subjectivity, but I think you balanced old school and new school well.  Also think it was smart to name it "top roster" not just top 15 players, because, nothing against him, but it's tough to say that a 6-3 200lb forward deserves a spot on the top roster, with the way the game and positions has changed the last 60 years.

...but you left out all time.

[Its DJOver]

...but you left out all time.

1, as I said, it's all subjective, because of course it is.  There's no way to objectively prove how players would perform across decades.

2, the list is titled, "all time mubb roster", not "all time top 15 players relative to their era's".  Those are two different lists, and while they will obviously have some overlap, there will also be outliers.  For example, I don't think Novak is a top 15 player in program history.  I don't think his overall body of work merits that claim.  I think it would be tough to find somebody that does have that opinion.  Yet, if I had to put together an actual roster, I would want someone where I know that with the game on the line, are automatic from the stripe (sorry Davante), so I would put Novak on that roster over players that have all around more talent than he does.

3, I think the "team success" argument being made again is not very strong.  If Diener doesn't go off against Holy Cross, Wade never gets the trip doub or the FF, and his team success would be significantly less, but that would have in no way prevented him from being on the list.  Markus' lack of team success has been very well documented here, yet he obliterated the all time scoring, and three year scoring, records by so much that him and his 0 NCAA tournament wins should still be on here, IMO of course.

If I had to put together an all time mubb roster would it look different that the OP's? Yea, probably.  If I had to put together an all time player relative to their era list, it would again look different.  The OP explains why he made the decisions that he did, and while I may not agree with all of them, I can still say that it's a nice list.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

If the author was including what they did in the NBA, JFB and Rivers belong, IMHO. Other than that, can't disagree with you.

[willie warrior]

No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

Need to bump the number to at least 20

Chones, Kojis, Thompson, and a few others like Tatum, Tony Smith, Walton deserve to be in there.

[brewcity77]

You always will get pushback, but here's my 15:

Starters: Meminger, Wade, Lee, Ellis, Chones

Bench: Miller, Thompson, Tatum, Lucas, McIlvaine

Reserves: Diener, Howard, Kojis, Crowder, Novak

For my starters, I tried to take the 5 best of all time. Where there are questions about guys that should be on that first list (Thompson, Lucas particularly) I tried to make a second line. My reserves are a mix of shooting and switchables.

As the question is best roster, I included guys like McIlvaine, Howard, and Novak because they have essential talents in rim protection and shooting.

The toughest spot was Kojis over Jerel and Lazar. Ultimately, I feel my roster has enough guards (Wade, Thompson) that are better than Jerel and I'd rather have Howard's PG ability & shooting and Kojis' rebounding from a 2/3, while Hayward misses out because I just think Crowder is a similar but better player.

[Marquette Overload]

Be prepared for 800 "then they need to learn their history" replies.

Like all fan bases......folks love to idolize the good ole days

Learn your history and idolize the good ole days over at www.muoverload.com and www.twitter.com/muoverload!

[MU82]

You always will get pushback, but here's my 15:

Starters: Meminger, Wade, Lee, Ellis, Chones

Bench: Miller, Thompson, Tatum, Lucas, McIlvaine

Reserves: Diener, Howard, Kojis, Crowder, Novak

For my starters, I tried to take the 5 best of all time. Where there are questions about guys that should be on that first list (Thompson, Lucas particularly) I tried to make a second line. My reserves are a mix of shooting and switchables.

As the question is best roster, I included guys like McIlvaine, Howard, and Novak because they have essential talents in rim protection and shooting.

The toughest spot was Kojis over Jerel and Lazar. Ultimately, I feel my roster has enough guards (Wade, Thompson) that are better than Jerel and I'd rather have Howard's PG ability & shooting and Kojis' rebounding from a 2/3, while Hayward misses out because I just think Crowder is a similar but better player.

Well thought-out. Quibbling is always part of these kinds of lists, but I'd happily take that roster into battle.

Like all fan bases......folks love to idolize the good ole days.

It doesn't take much pining for "good ole days" to realize that Chones was 3x the basketball player McIlvaine was. (And for the record, Chones was before my time at MU, too.)

What's funny is that the Wade-Diener-Novak era is approaching "good ole days" territory, and in 15-20 years, MU fans will be saying that Robot McRoboterson is better than Wade ever was!

[Goose]

That list gave me a good laugh. Not a tremendous of credibility with the list, IMO.

[The Lens]

Tom Crean's mission is complete: George Thompson was left off MU's All-time Team.

The Godfather of Marquette Basketball was was left off MU's All-time Team.

The true scoring champion was left off MU's All-time Team.

It's a sad day for Scoop, a sad day for #mubb.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The true scoring champion was left off MU's All-time Team.

These are the types of lines that gets people to roll their eyes about the past..  Markus has more points and more points per game.  In what way is George Thompson the "true scoring champion?"

[Dr. Blackheart]

Well thought-out. Quibbling is always part of these kinds of lists, but I'd happily take that roster into battle.

It doesn't take much pining for "good ole days" to realize that Chones was 3x the basketball player McIlvaine was. (And for the record, Chones was before my time at MU, too.)

What's funny is that the Wade-Diener-Novak era is approaching "good ole days" territory, and in 15-20 years, MU fans will be saying that Robot McRoboterson is better than Wade ever was!

Jay Whitehead > Jimmy Mac for the 2nd team, especially if the NBA seems to be included. Now if the best player-advantaged NBA contract is the criteria, then Mac is first team all by himself.

[brewcity77]

Jay Whitehead > Jimmy Mac for the 2nd team, especially if the NBA seems to be included. Now if the best player-advantaged NBA contract is the criteria, then Mac is first team all by himself.

That's a good call. I included Mac mostly because he's rather unique as a rim protector. I could easily bump Mac from the team, or move him to reserves and drop Kojis.

[Galway Eagle]

Tom Crean's mission is complete: George Thompson was left off MU's All-time Team.

The Godfather of Marquette Basketball was was left off MU's All-time Team.

The true scoring champion was left off MU's All-time Team.

It's a sad day for Scoop, a sad day for #mubb.

I don't think you can call Thompson the true scoring champion. Howard in three years scored more, and then if you normalize the 3pt makes for 2pts because Thompson didn't have a 3pt line then Howard ends up with 1,999pts. Thompson was a damn good player but to call still call him the true scoring champ is a stretch.

[The Lens]

These are the types of lines that gets people to roll their eyes about the past..  Markus has more points and more points per game.  In what way is George Thompson the "true scoring champion?"

I don't think you can call Thompson the true scoring champion. Howard in three years scored more, and then if you normalize the 3pt makes for 2pts because Thompson didn't have a 3pt line then Howard ends up with 1,999pts. Thompson was a damn good player but to call still call him the true scoring champ is a stretch.

I stand corrected, while it took Markus 4 years to get the scoring title, he did pass George as a junior.  My bad.

That being said, if you don't have George front and center on the All-Time #MUBB roster you either don't understand MU hoops or you're Tom Crean (and those aren't mutually exclusive).

[Goose]

Lens

I am betting on not understanding MU hoops.

[MU82]

Jay Whitehead > Jimmy Mac for the 2nd team

Reasonable, and probably right.

Tom Crean's mission is complete: George Thompson was left off MU's All-time Team.

The Godfather of Marquette Basketball was was left off MU's All-time Team.

The true scoring champion was left off MU's All-time Team.

It's a sad day for Scoop, a sad day for #mubb.

Is this blog post the one and only, judge and jury "MU All-Time Team"? It's some guy on the interwebs giving his opinion.

Unless you meant that as teal-less teal. If so, good job.

[The Lens]

Reasonable, and probably right.

Is this blog post the one and only, judge and jury "MU All-Time Team"? It's some guy on the interwebs giving his opinion.

Unless you meant that as teal-less teal. If so, good job.

When I talk of George, teal is never used or implied.  While I was born 6 years after George exhausted his eligibility, I'm just glad to be raised in a home that appreciated his place in #mubb.

[Billy Hoyle]

not even a mention of Hutch? SMH.

[The Lens]

not even a mention of Hutch? SMH.

That is a bummer but it's a testament to the talent that has walked through that door since 1998.  We've been lucky.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Decided to try my own All Time MUBB roster. Looked at both what players did at MU as well as what they did in the pros. Not a top 15 players list but a top roster, so there are some specialists in there.

Starters:
George Thompson
Dwyane Wade
Jimmy Butler
Maurice Lucas
Jim Chones

Bench:
Dean Meminger
Don Kojis
Wesley Matthews
Jae Crowder
Jerome Whitehead

Reserves:
Butch Lee
Doc Rivers
Earl Tatum
Bo Ellis
Steve Novak

This is not an easy exercise.

[muwarrior69]

I don't think you can call Thompson the true scoring champion. Howard in three years scored more, and then if you normalize the 3pt makes for 2pts because Thompson didn't have a 3pt line then Howard ends up with 1,999pts. Thompson was a damn good player but to call still call him the true scoring champ is a stretch.

George did not have the shot clock either which limited possessions. This is what happens when you compare athletes who play under different rules, impossible to say who is better, all-time, top 15 or whatever. Yes, I'm an old-timer and lived seeing all the players except Kojis and they're all pretty great.

I just wonder will MU have a player in the next 10-15 years that we will be arguing about being an "all-time" great.

[Galway Eagle]

George did not have the shot clock either which limited possessions. This is what happens when you compare athletes who play under different rules, impossible to say who is better, all-time, top 15 or whatever. Yes, I'm an old-timer and lived seeing all the players except Kojis and they're all pretty great.

I just wonder will MU have a player in the next 10-15 years that we will be arguing about being an "all-time" great.

Thanks for pointing that out, my response to shot clock would be this:

https://www.coloradoan.com/story/sports/csu/mens-basketball/2015/05/22/college-basketball-shot-clock/27797929/

It could be valid for the individual though, who knows. Like you, I hope in the next 10-15 years we're at least talking about more than 1 player. At least from Crean and Buzz there's a decent worthy of opening that discussion for but Wojo had one that's it.

Also why does nobody give Terry Rand any love? He was the leading scorer and rebounder for the team that "started" MU hoops.

[dgies9156]

Being one of the old codgers, who saw most of the guys Cracked Sidewalks listed play, geez, folks, you can do better than that.

Here's my list for comparison:

The Butch and Bo Show -- You can't have a Greatest Ever list without these guys. Pure and simple. They got these guys right.

Dean Meminger -- They got Dean right too.

Maurice Lucas -- The catalyst behind the 1974 National Runner-up Team. Lucas left after 1974 and, while the 1974-1975 team was good, if Lucas had stayed another year, we might have won the Natty that year. He was THAT Good.

Jim Chones -- Don't kid youself. This guy was among the best ever to don a Warrior uniform. Don't believe me? Look what happened in 1972 after he left for the pros. We were on a collision course with UCLA for a Natty, being undefeated before Chones left. The Saturday after he was gone, we lost 70-49 to Detroit. To Detroit, forgodssake. We made the tournament that year but did not get out of the regional semifinal. Retire the man's jersey, will you?

Dwyane Wade -- OK, this guy was with us for only slightly more time than Chones and yet many think of him as the greatest Warrior ever. Darn, he was good. His pro career was the best of any Warrior ever. That Kentucky game will live forever in Warrior history. Is he better than Meminger or Lee? If he had brought us a natty, maybe. But he didn't.

Beyond these six, I'd list next five as follows:

 -- Earl Tatum
 -- Lloyd Walton
 -- Jeral McNeal
 -- George Thompson -- He put the program on the map and probably should be in the Top group.
 -- Don Kojis

[Scoop Snoop]

Being one of the old codgers, who saw most of the guys Cracked Sidewalks listed play, geez, folks, you can do better than that.

Here's my list for comparison:

The Butch and Bo Show -- You can't have a Greatest Ever list without these guys. Pure and simple. They got these guys right.

Dean Meminger -- They got Dean right too.

Maurice Lucas -- The catalyst behind the 1974 National Runner-up Team. Lucas left after 1974 and, while the 1974-1975 team was good, if Lucas had stayed another year, we might have won the Natty that year. He was THAT Good.

Jim Chones -- Don't kid youself. This guy was among the best ever to don a Warrior uniform. Don't believe me? Look what happened in 1972 after he left for the pros. We were on a collision course with UCLA for a Natty, being undefeated before Chones left. The Saturday after he was gone, we lost 70-49 to Detroit. To Detroit, forgodssake. We made the tournament that year but did not get out of the regional semifinal. Retire the man's jersey, will you?

Dwyane Wade -- OK, this guy was with us for only slightly more time than Chones and yet many think of him as the greatest Warrior ever. Darn, he was good. His pro career was the best of any Warrior ever. That Kentucky game will live forever in Warrior history. Is he better than Meminger or Lee? If he had brought us a natty, maybe. But he didn't.

Beyond these six, I'd list next five as follows:

 -- Earl Tatum
 -- Lloyd Walton
 -- Jeral McNeal
 -- George Thompson -- He put the program on the map and probably should be in the Top group.
 -- Don Kojis

Yep, he sure did. I remember how George would, after securing a rebound, hold the ball with his elbows extended and swung them vigorously back and forth on his way down, just in case a foolish defender tried to take it from him.

[MuggsyB]

Yep, he sure did. I remember how George would, after securing a rebound, hold the ball with his elbows extended and swung them vigorously back and forth on his way down, just in case a foolish defender tried to take it from him.

Who's on your all cool team Scoop Snoop?

Wade
Meminger
Thompson
Lucas
Chones

I'm just taking a guess.

Perhaps Sam Worthen?

[MU82]

Dwyane Wade -- OK, this guy was with us for only slightly more time than Chones and yet many think of him as the greatest Warrior ever. Darn, he was good. His pro career was the best of any Warrior ever. That Kentucky game will live forever in Warrior history. Is he better than Meminger or Lee? If he had brought us a natty, maybe. But he didn't.

Meminger didn't "bring us a natty," either.

Dean and D-Wade both all-timers.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Dwyane Wade is a top 25 basketball player of all time. Top 40 at the absolute worst. I don't see any reasonable argument to put Wade behind Lee, Meminger, or any other MU alum for that matter.

[MU82]

Dwyane Wade is a top 25 basketball player of all time. Top 40 at the absolute worst. I don't see any reasonable argument to put Wade behind Lee, Meminger, or any other MU alum for that matter.

Well, if you're talking about who the best players were during their Marquette days, one could make a case for others. But yes, when considering overall bodies of work, Wade is by far the best basketball player to have ever worn a Marquette jersey.

The only other guy in the same zip code is Lucas, a multiple NBA and ABA All-Star and key contributor to a championship team. I guess maybe Jimmy would be third based on his very good showing at MU and a fine NBA career so far.

No other former Warrior/Golden Eagle averaged even 13 points in his NBA career. Wes is fourth at 12.6. Chones and Kojis put up some decent NBA numbers, and Rivers and Jae were/are good role players.

As great as our history is, especially obviously the Al and Crean/Buzz eras, Marquette has produced surprisingly few NBA standouts.

[Scoop Snoop]

Who's on your all cool team Scoop Snoop?

Wade
Meminger
Thompson
Lucas
Chones

I'm just taking a guess.




Perhaps Sam Worthen?

Thanks for asking Muggs and a very good guess. I'm going to punt on providing additional names though. I knew that this thread would make the massive wildfires out West look like campfires by comparison. It is impossible to fairly compare players from the 60's and 70's to post 1985 players. The earlier players had to sit out their freshman years, had only 2 point baskets, no shot clock which resulted in long periods of burning the clock at their coach's instruction, and a shorter season. Comparing scoring records with post 1985 players is ridiculous. One poster included their success as pros in his evaluation (??), others have accused old codgers of being hopelessly living in the past, etc. And they do have a point, but the past sometimes is much more fun than the present.

Dgies's comment about George was the tripwire for me. It brought back memories of his "take no prisoners" style of play before rule changes tamed players like him. Today he would be ejected for planting his elbow in an opponent's face after securing a rebound in his patented style. 

[dgies9156]

Dwyane Wade is a top 25 basketball player of all time. Top 40 at the absolute worst. I don't see any reasonable argument to put Wade behind Lee, Meminger, or any other MU alum for that matter.

1977 NCAA Champions

1970 NIT Champions

There is your argument. Please note that the NIT back then was a bigger deal than it is today. There were only 24 teams in the NCAA back then. These are the two biggest moments in Marquette Athletic history.

Brother Snoop, the Captain of the "all Cool" Team would be Bob Lackey, pure and simple. My favorite Warrior of all time.

[Galway Eagle]

1977 NCAA Champions

1970 NIT Champions

There is your argument. Please note that the NIT back then was a bigger deal than it is today. There were only 24 teams in the NCAA back then. These are the two biggest moments in Marquette Athletic history.

Brother Snoop, the Captain of the "all Cool" Team would be Bob Lackey, pure and simple. My favorite Warrior of all time.

Yes the NIT was considerably better back then. No, it is not the second most impressive feat in school history when the field was as follows (at selection day):

Army: Unranked
Cincy: 19
Duke: unranked
Duquesne: Unranked
Georgetown: Unranked
Georgia Tech: Unranked
LSU: unranked
Louisville: unranked
Manhattan: unranked
Marquette: 9
Massachusetts:unranked
Miami (OH): unranked
UNC: unranked
Oklahoma: unranked
SJU: unranked
Utah: Unranked

The fact that the NIT was considerably better has gotten way overblown in older scoopers heads to the level that people are thinking it was on par with the NCAA at the time.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

1977 NCAA Champions

1970 NIT Champions

There is your argument. Please note that the NIT back then was a bigger deal than it is today. There were only 24 teams in the NCAA back then. These are the two biggest moments in Marquette Athletic history.

Meminger's NIT championship is better than Wade's Final Four? I don't buy that.

Lee won one more NCAAT game in 1977 than Wade did in 2003 while being surrounded by better teammates. I don't think that makes up for Wade being a significantly better player than Lee.

Lee/Meminger are first ballot MU hall of famers. Wade is a first ballot hall of famer.

[Scoop Snoop]

Yes the NIT was considerably better back then. No, it is not the second most impressive feat in school history when the field was as follows:

Army: Unranked
Cincy: 19
Duke: unranked
Duquesne: Unranked
Georgetown: Unranked
Georgia Tech: Unranked
LSU: unranked
Louisville: unranked
Manhattan: unranked
Marquette: 9
Massachusetts:unranked
Miami (OH): unranked
UNC: unranked
Oklahoma: unranked
SJU: unranked
Utah: Unranked

The fact that the NIT was considerably better has gotten way overblown in older scoopers heads to the level that people are thinking it was on par with the NCAA at the time.

Scratch me off your list older scoopers who thought it was "on par" with the NCAA. No way. That's why there was such an uproar when Al turned down the NCAA bid. We knew it was a pretty big step down.

Edit: At least it was a decent (then) tourney that we won. I don't want to dismiss it just because it was not the NCAA.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Meminger's NIT championship is better than Wade's Final Four? I don't buy that.

Lee won one more NCAAT game in 1977 than Wade did in 2003 while being surrounded by better teammates. I don't think that makes up for Wade being a significantly better player than Lee.

Lee/Meminger are first ballot MU hall of famers. Wade is a first ballot hall of famer.

Butch is  the only MU alum to win national player of the year and NCAAT MOP. Has to be ahead of Dean.

[dgies9156]

OK gang, I'll make it easy:

1) Guys that are "automatics" as the best ever
  Butch Lee
  Bo Ellis
  Maurice Lucas
  Dwyane Wade

2) Guys that definitely are debated anytime the question arises as to the best ever
  Don Kojis
  George Thompson
  Dean Meminger
  Jim Chones
  Earl Tatum
  Jeral McNeal
  Glenn Rivers

3) Guys who get mentioned, especially by anyone who became an MU fan after 1980:
  Jim McIllivane
  Jerome Whitehead
  Tony Smith
  Wes Matthews
  Jae Crowder
  Steve Novak
  Bernard Toone
 
4) Guys that I like but won't get more than a mention
  Bob Lackey
  Markus Howard
 
I'm sure I'm leaving some folks off, but this is the break down of how I would see our history. If Sam hadn't transferred, I'd have him in Group 4 too.

[MuggsyB]

1977 NCAA Champions

1970 NIT Champions

There is your argument. Please note that the NIT back then was a bigger deal than it is today. There were only 24 teams in the NCAA back then. These are the two biggest moments in Marquette Athletic history.

Brother Snoop, the Captain of the "all Cool" Team would be Bob Lackey, pure and simple. My favorite Warrior of all time.

Oh...I forgot about Lackey.  I've heard he was coolness personified and of course had an all-time badass nickname.

[PBRme]

OK gang, I'll make it easy:

1) Guys that are "automatics" as the best ever
  Butch Lee
  Bo Ellis
  Maurice Lucas
  Dwyane Wade

2) Guys that definitely are debated anytime the question arises as to the best ever
  Don Kojis
  George Thompson
  Dean Meminger
  Jim Chones
  Earl Tatum
  Jeral McNeal
  Glenn Rivers

3) Guys who get mentioned, especially by anyone who became an MU fan after 1980:
  Jim McIllivane
  Jerome Whitehead
  Tony Smith
  Wes Matthews
  Jae Crowder
  Steve Novak
  Bernard Toone
 
4) Guys that I like but won't get more than a mention
  Bob Lackey
  Markus Howard
 
I'm sure I'm leaving some folks off, but this is the break down of how I would see our history. If Sam hadn't transferred, I'd have him in Group 4 too.

Jimmy Butler

[MuggsyB]

Jimmy Butler

Yep.

Dominic?
DJO?
McNeill?
Hayward?

[brewcity77]

If you're putting a roster together, Howard is an obvious pick, at least if you're playing with a three point line. He'd come off the bench, but there's no debate he would be on the team. He's one of the best three point shooters in D1 history. He is a 100% guarantee on the roster.

[4everwarriors]

#24
#31
#22
#14
#3


Dat iz all, hey?

[Galway Eagle]

#24
#31
#22
#14
#3


Dat iz all, hey?

Odd list, but if this is who you're taking to the floor then good luck!

24: Bernol Kechum

31: Roger buxton

22: Wally Ellenson

14: Rocke Cavelli

3: Robert van bereghy?

[The Lens]

Dwyane Wade is 1st Team All-Marquette.  That is non-negotiable.

[CTWarrior]

OK gang, I'll make it easy:

1) Guys that are "automatics" as the best ever
  Butch Lee
  Bo Ellis
  Maurice Lucas
  Dwyane Wade

2) Guys that definitely are debated anytime the question arises as to the best ever
  Don Kojis
  George Thompson
  Dean Meminger
  Jim Chones
  Earl Tatum
  Jeral McNeal
  Glenn Rivers

3) Guys who get mentioned, especially by anyone who became an MU fan after 1980:
  Jim McIllivane
  Jerome Whitehead
  Tony Smith
  Wes Matthews
  Jae Crowder
  Steve Novak
  Bernard Toone
 
4) Guys that I like but won't get more than a mention
  Bob Lackey
  Markus Howard
 
I'm sure I'm leaving some folks off, but this is the break down of how I would see our history. If Sam hadn't transferred, I'd have him in Group 4 too.

Watched 'em both for four years and don't see the argument that McIlvaine was better in college than Damon Key.  Not saying Key needs to be on this list, but if Key isn't, McIlvaine shouldn't be.

[Galway Eagle]

Watched 'em both for four years and don't see the argument that McIlvaine was better in college than Damon Key.  Not saying Key needs to be on this list, but if Key isn't, McIlvaine shouldn't be.

Just theorizing: There's enough scoring so Key's 2ppg more than Mac's isn't going to move the needle. Their rebounding is comparable but Mac's blocks probably moves the needle for most.

[The Lens]

Mac made a lot of money and he's been a great ambassador for MU...but Damon was the straw that stirred the drink (with an assist from Tony).

IYKYK

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If you're putting a roster together, Howard is an obvious pick, at least if you're playing with a three point line. He'd come off the bench, but there's no debate he would be on the team. He's one of the best three point shooters in D1 history. He is a 100% guarantee on the roster.

I really struggled limiting it to 15. Howard deserves to be there. But I also wanted to add Jimmy Mac for his rim protection, Tony Miller deserved consideration, so does Diener, I'm a huge Hutch fan, Larry McNeill should probably be in the conversation. Not easy decisions. For me, Howard didn't make the cut because I was also considering pro success and Howard simply hasn't had time to build that. Maybe in a few years I'll bump Tatum or Rivers for Howard.

[brewcity77]

I really struggled limiting it to 15. Howard deserves to be there. But I also wanted to add Jimmy Mac for his rim protection, Tony Miller deserved consideration, so does Diener, I'm a huge Hutch fan, Larry McNeill should probably be in the conversation. Not easy decisions. For me, Howard didn't make the cut because I was also considering pro success and Howard simply hasn't had time to build that. Maybe in a few years I'll bump Tatum or Rivers for Howard.

If it's really a roster, I think a number of great players should probably be bypassed for guys like Howard, Novak, and McIlvaine. I'm rethinking this a bit. Ultimately, you probably need an 8-deep main roster with specialists around them

PG: Meminger
SG: Wade
SF: Lee
PF: Ellis
C: Chones

For my main bench, I want a guard, wing, and big that can all play 2-3 positions. I take Miller over some other guards because I want a true floor general.

Guard: Miller
Wing: Tatum
Big: Lucas

For the last 7 spots, I want specialists. The situational players that won't necessarily get in much, but are the best there is at what they do.

Microwave scorer: Thompson
Shooters: Howard, Novak
Rim protection: McIlvaine
Rebounder: Kojis
Glue guys: Crowder, Butler

Are there better overall players than some of these? Yes. But in terms of meeting their role, I think this covers every key scenario. You need a stop? Bring in Mac and Jimmy. Down big and need to come back? Tag George and Markus. Gotta secure a tough rebound? It's Don and Jae.

While there are better players, is there anyone that will keep Wade, Bo, or Butch from being 30-35 mpg guys? No. So best to figure out who can best fit the role when those guys come out rather than just making an all-star team, half of which will never play.

[Scoop Snoop]

I like what dgies and Brew have brought to this thread. TAMU, why is it important to you to include NBA success in your evaluations? Seems that this should be limited to their performances at Marquette. For a recent example, (and admittedly stretching things quite a bit by going outside of MU) if Miles Powell had been a MU player rather than SH, why would his lack of NBA success be reason to mark down his value?

Just asking, not spoiling for a fight.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I like what dgies and Brew have brought to this thread. TAMU, why is it important to you to include NBA success in your evaluations? Seems that this should be limited to their performances at Marquette. For a recent example, (and admittedly stretching things quite a bit by going outside of MU) if Miles Powell had been a MU player rather than SH, why would his lack of NBA success be reason to mark down his value?

Just asking, not spoiling for a fight.

Honestly, how I read the premise was that we were evaluating them as basketball players, not just as Marquette basketball players.

I also don't think Powell would crack my top 30 MUBB roster 

[dgies9156]

Top All-Time MU in the NBA

Dwyane Wade -- By far the best
Maurice Lucas -- The Enforcer
Wes Matthews -- Good journeyman in the NBA, great MU Player
Jimmy Butler -- Who would have thought it when he was at MU?
Jae Crowder -- Slight tilt toward Jae because he is more modern; wanted to consider Chones here.

In the Discussion
Jim Chones -- Could flip with Jae and I'd be just as happy.
Dean Meminger -- Great guard with the Knicks, couldn't shoot to save his life.
Doc Rivers -- Probably better in the NBA than in college.
Steve Novak -- 14 years in the Show speaks for itself.
Markus Howard -- We'll see how this one works out.
Tony Smith -- Anyone who backed up Magic and had an engineering degree has to be special.

[MU82]

1977 NCAA Champions

1970 NIT Champions

There is your argument. Please note that the NIT back then was a bigger deal than it is today. There were only 24 teams in the NCAA back then. These are the two biggest moments in Marquette Athletic history.

Brother Snoop, the Captain of the "all Cool" Team would be Bob Lackey, pure and simple. My favorite Warrior of all time.

I guess Neary should be ranked ahead of Wade, too. 1977 NCAA Champion.

And while we're at it, Trent Dilfer obviously was a better QB than Fouts or Marino.

[Uncle Rico]

I guess Neary should be ranked ahead of Wade, too. 1977 NCAA Champion.

And while we're at it, Trent Dilfer obviously was a better QB than Fouts or Marino.

No player after 1977 is even in my top 100

[dgies9156]

I guess Neary should be ranked ahead of Wade, too. 1977 NCAA Champion.

And while we're at it, Trent Dilfer obviously was a better QB than Fouts or Marino.

Brother MU:

Butch Lee was the MVP of the 1977 NCAA Tournament, was an All-American and player of the year. Bo Ellis was an All-American and with Butch was largely responsible for the championship run.

Bill Neary was a starter and a role player/enforcer. He was an important part of the team but is not among the GOATs. Maybe you had to be there to understand what Butch and Bo meant to us.

DWade was great and among the five best ever at MU. But National Championships mean something and the people who led us to 1977 have to be the best. Butch and Bo were leaders!

[Galway Eagle]

Dgies9156

Who are your top 10 shooting guards all time in the history of basketball?

[WhiteTrash]

I would argue that Wade was at times the best player in the world.  Both at MU and in the NBA. Just my opinion.

This is from a guy who has Wade's  MU bobble head in his office.

[Lennys Tap]

If it's really a roster, I think a number of great players should probably be bypassed for guys like Howard, Novak, and McIlvaine. I'm rethinking this a bit. Ultimately, you probably need an 8-deep main roster with specialists around them

PG: Meminger
SG: Wade
SF: Lee
PF: Ellis
C: Chones

For my main bench, I want a guard, wing, and big that can all play 2-3 positions. I take Miller over some other guards because I want a true floor general.

Guard: Miller
Wing: Tatum
Big: Lucas

For the last 7 spots, I want specialists. The situational players that won't necessarily get in much, but are the best there is at what they do.

Microwave scorer: Thompson
Shooters: Howard, Novak
Rim protection: McIlvaine
Rebounder: Kojis
Glue guys: Crowder, Butler

Are there better overall players than some of these? Yes. But in terms of meeting their role, I think this covers every key scenario. You need a stop? Bring in Mac and Jimmy. Down big and need to come back? Tag George and Markus. Gotta secure a tough rebound? It's Don and Jae.

While there are better players, is there anyone that will keep Wade, Bo, or Butch from being 30-35 mpg guys? No. So best to figure out who can best fit the role when those guys come out rather than just making an all-star team, half of which will never play.

Solid roster backed by sound reasoning. One can always pick a nit here and there but I think you pretty much nailed it.

[Billy Hoyle]

Jimmy Butler

Good, not great career at MU. Gets a no from me.

[romey]

Top All-Time MU in the NBA

Dwyane Wade -- By far the best
Maurice Lucas -- The Enforcer
Wes Matthews -- Good journeyman in the NBA, great MU Player
Jimmy Butler -- Who would have thought it when he was at MU?
Jae Crowder -- Slight tilt toward Jae because he is more modern; wanted to consider Chones here.

In the Discussion
Jim Chones -- Could flip with Jae and I'd be just as happy.
Dean Meminger -- Great guard with the Knicks, couldn't shoot to save his life.
Doc Rivers -- Probably better in the NBA than in college.
Steve Novak -- 14 years in the Show speaks for itself.
Markus Howard -- We'll see how this one works out.
Tony Smith -- Anyone who backed up Magic and had an engineering degree has to be special.

A sleeper was Chris Crawford.  I was somewhat disconnected from MU hoops for a while in the 90's and oughts and suddenly I see Crawford in the box scores in ATL.
Don't forget what Kojis put up in terms of numbers in the NBA also.

[Jockey]

Be prepared for 800 "then they need to learn their history" replies.

Like all fan bases......folks love to idolize the good ole days

Edit to add: any list like this is going to have either 51% like or hate it and it'll drive discussion in the off season. The logic behind the picks seems reasonable

So you think people expecting All-American players to be on the list is somewhat unreasonable?

[Galway Eagle]

So you think people expecting All-American players to be on the list is somewhat unreasonable?

No but Jerel was an All American, so was Lazar. I think the "these guys were all Americans!" Argument used for the 70s guys isn't as effective when you write it off for the more modern guys.

[oldwarrior81]

Lazar did get on The Sporting News 5th team All American in 2010.
The AP announces three teams, but that year they had a huge list of 43 players listed as Honorable Mention, which is what Lazar made. 
A little bit of a stretch to compare his Honorable mention with that of the Marquette first or second team All-Americans from the past.


The list is fairly short for those making an AP All-American team:
1971:  Meminger 1st
1972:  Chones 1st
1976:  Tatum 2nd
1977:  Butch 2nd,  Ellis 3rd
1978:  Butch 1st
1980:  Worthen 2nd
2003:  Wade 1st
2009:  McNeal 2nd
2012:  Crowder 2nd
2019:  Howard 2nd
2020:  Howard 1st

[Galway Eagle]

Lazar did get on The Sporting News 5th team All American in 2010.
The AP announces three teams, but that year they had a huge list of 43 players listed as Honorable Mention, which is what Lazar made. 
A little bit of a stretch to compare his Honorable mention with that of the Marquette first or second team All-Americans from the past.


The list is fairly short for those making an AP All-American team:
1971:  Meminger 1st
1972:  Chones 1st
1976:  Tatum 2nd
1977:  Butch 2nd,  Ellis 3rd
1978:  Butch 1st
1980:  Worthen 2nd
2003:  Wade 1st
2009:  McNeal 2nd
2012:  Crowder 2nd
2019:  Howard 2nd
2020:  Howard 1st

Fair enough, Lazar wasn't as good of an example. Just focus on McNeal Crowder and Howard which we're all the real thing but nobody will give them their dues.

Obviously McNeal and Howard both went nowhere in the tournament and there's other arguments one could make against them but the all American argument isn't the greatest imo