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Author Topic: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster  (Read 4604 times)

PBRme

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2021, 09:52:46 AM »
OK gang, I'll make it easy:

1) Guys that are "automatics" as the best ever
  Butch Lee
  Bo Ellis
  Maurice Lucas
  Dwyane Wade

2) Guys that definitely are debated anytime the question arises as to the best ever
  Don Kojis
  George Thompson
  Dean Meminger
  Jim Chones
  Earl Tatum
  Jeral McNeal
  Glenn Rivers

3) Guys who get mentioned, especially by anyone who became an MU fan after 1980:
  Jim McIllivane
  Jerome Whitehead
  Tony Smith
  Wes Matthews
  Jae Crowder
  Steve Novak
  Bernard Toone
 
4) Guys that I like but won't get more than a mention
  Bob Lackey
  Markus Howard
 
I'm sure I'm leaving some folks off, but this is the break down of how I would see our history. If Sam hadn't transferred, I'd have him in Group 4 too.

Jimmy Butler
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MuggsyB

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2021, 09:56:15 AM »
Jimmy Butler

Yep.

Dominic?
DJO?
McNeill?
Hayward?

brewcity77

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2021, 10:41:41 AM »
If you're putting a roster together, Howard is an obvious pick, at least if you're playing with a three point line. He'd come off the bench, but there's no debate he would be on the team. He's one of the best three point shooters in D1 history. He is a 100% guarantee on the roster.
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4everwarriors

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2021, 10:44:52 AM »
#24
#31
#22
#14
#3


Dat iz all, hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

Galway Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2021, 10:57:26 AM »
#24
#31
#22
#14
#3


Dat iz all, hey?

Odd list, but if this is who you're taking to the floor then good luck!

24: Bernol Kechum

31: Roger buxton

22: Wally Ellenson

14: Rocke Cavelli

3: Robert van bereghy?
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The Lens

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2021, 11:10:52 AM »
Dwyane Wade is 1st Team All-Marquette.  That is non-negotiable.
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CTWarrior

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2021, 11:16:24 AM »
OK gang, I'll make it easy:

1) Guys that are "automatics" as the best ever
  Butch Lee
  Bo Ellis
  Maurice Lucas
  Dwyane Wade

2) Guys that definitely are debated anytime the question arises as to the best ever
  Don Kojis
  George Thompson
  Dean Meminger
  Jim Chones
  Earl Tatum
  Jeral McNeal
  Glenn Rivers

3) Guys who get mentioned, especially by anyone who became an MU fan after 1980:
  Jim McIllivane
  Jerome Whitehead
  Tony Smith
  Wes Matthews
  Jae Crowder
  Steve Novak
  Bernard Toone
 
4) Guys that I like but won't get more than a mention
  Bob Lackey
  Markus Howard
 
I'm sure I'm leaving some folks off, but this is the break down of how I would see our history. If Sam hadn't transferred, I'd have him in Group 4 too.

Watched 'em both for four years and don't see the argument that McIlvaine was better in college than Damon Key.  Not saying Key needs to be on this list, but if Key isn't, McIlvaine shouldn't be.
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Galway Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2021, 11:26:42 AM »
Watched 'em both for four years and don't see the argument that McIlvaine was better in college than Damon Key.  Not saying Key needs to be on this list, but if Key isn't, McIlvaine shouldn't be.

Just theorizing: There's enough scoring so Key's 2ppg more than Mac's isn't going to move the needle. Their rebounding is comparable but Mac's blocks probably moves the needle for most.
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The Lens

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2021, 11:29:48 AM »
Mac made a lot of money and he's been a great ambassador for MU...but Damon was the straw that stirred the drink (with an assist from Tony).

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TAMU Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2021, 01:52:16 PM »
If you're putting a roster together, Howard is an obvious pick, at least if you're playing with a three point line. He'd come off the bench, but there's no debate he would be on the team. He's one of the best three point shooters in D1 history. He is a 100% guarantee on the roster.

I really struggled limiting it to 15. Howard deserves to be there. But I also wanted to add Jimmy Mac for his rim protection, Tony Miller deserved consideration, so does Diener, I'm a huge Hutch fan, Larry McNeill should probably be in the conversation. Not easy decisions. For me, Howard didn't make the cut because I was also considering pro success and Howard simply hasn't had time to build that. Maybe in a few years I'll bump Tatum or Rivers for Howard.
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And the wisdom to know the difference.

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brewcity77

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2021, 02:46:34 PM »
I really struggled limiting it to 15. Howard deserves to be there. But I also wanted to add Jimmy Mac for his rim protection, Tony Miller deserved consideration, so does Diener, I'm a huge Hutch fan, Larry McNeill should probably be in the conversation. Not easy decisions. For me, Howard didn't make the cut because I was also considering pro success and Howard simply hasn't had time to build that. Maybe in a few years I'll bump Tatum or Rivers for Howard.

If it's really a roster, I think a number of great players should probably be bypassed for guys like Howard, Novak, and McIlvaine. I'm rethinking this a bit. Ultimately, you probably need an 8-deep main roster with specialists around them

PG: Meminger
SG: Wade
SF: Lee
PF: Ellis
C: Chones

For my main bench, I want a guard, wing, and big that can all play 2-3 positions. I take Miller over some other guards because I want a true floor general.

Guard: Miller
Wing: Tatum
Big: Lucas

For the last 7 spots, I want specialists. The situational players that won't necessarily get in much, but are the best there is at what they do.

Microwave scorer: Thompson
Shooters: Howard, Novak
Rim protection: McIlvaine
Rebounder: Kojis
Glue guys: Crowder, Butler

Are there better overall players than some of these? Yes. But in terms of meeting their role, I think this covers every key scenario. You need a stop? Bring in Mac and Jimmy. Down big and need to come back? Tag George and Markus. Gotta secure a tough rebound? It's Don and Jae.

While there are better players, is there anyone that will keep Wade, Bo, or Butch from being 30-35 mpg guys? No. So best to figure out who can best fit the role when those guys come out rather than just making an all-star team, half of which will never play.
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Scoop Snoop

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2021, 02:59:07 PM »
I like what dgies and Brew have brought to this thread. TAMU, why is it important to you to include NBA success in your evaluations? Seems that this should be limited to their performances at Marquette. For a recent example, (and admittedly stretching things quite a bit by going outside of MU) if Miles Powell had been a MU player rather than SH, why would his lack of NBA success be reason to mark down his value?

Just asking, not spoiling for a fight.
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TAMU Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2021, 03:16:40 PM »
I like what dgies and Brew have brought to this thread. TAMU, why is it important to you to include NBA success in your evaluations? Seems that this should be limited to their performances at Marquette. For a recent example, (and admittedly stretching things quite a bit by going outside of MU) if Miles Powell had been a MU player rather than SH, why would his lack of NBA success be reason to mark down his value?

Just asking, not spoiling for a fight.

Honestly, how I read the premise was that we were evaluating them as basketball players, not just as Marquette basketball players.

I also don't think Powell would crack my top 30 MUBB roster  ;D
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The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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dgies9156

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2021, 04:17:36 PM »
Top All-Time MU in the NBA

Dwyane Wade -- By far the best
Maurice Lucas -- The Enforcer
Wes Matthews -- Good journeyman in the NBA, great MU Player
Jimmy Butler -- Who would have thought it when he was at MU?
Jae Crowder -- Slight tilt toward Jae because he is more modern; wanted to consider Chones here.

In the Discussion
Jim Chones -- Could flip with Jae and I'd be just as happy.
Dean Meminger -- Great guard with the Knicks, couldn't shoot to save his life.
Doc Rivers -- Probably better in the NBA than in college.
Steve Novak -- 14 years in the Show speaks for itself.
Markus Howard -- We'll see how this one works out.
Tony Smith -- Anyone who backed up Magic and had an engineering degree has to be special.

MU82

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2021, 04:17:42 PM »
1977 NCAA Champions

1970 NIT Champions

There is your argument. Please note that the NIT back then was a bigger deal than it is today. There were only 24 teams in the NCAA back then. These are the two biggest moments in Marquette Athletic history.

Brother Snoop, the Captain of the "all Cool" Team would be Bob Lackey, pure and simple. My favorite Warrior of all time.

I guess Neary should be ranked ahead of Wade, too. 1977 NCAA Champion.

And while we're at it, Trent Dilfer obviously was a better QB than Fouts or Marino.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2021, 04:23:22 PM »
I guess Neary should be ranked ahead of Wade, too. 1977 NCAA Champion.

And while we're at it, Trent Dilfer obviously was a better QB than Fouts or Marino.

No player after 1977 is even in my top 100
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dgies9156

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2021, 04:27:53 PM »
I guess Neary should be ranked ahead of Wade, too. 1977 NCAA Champion.

And while we're at it, Trent Dilfer obviously was a better QB than Fouts or Marino.

Brother MU:

Butch Lee was the MVP of the 1977 NCAA Tournament, was an All-American and player of the year. Bo Ellis was an All-American and with Butch was largely responsible for the championship run.

Bill Neary was a starter and a role player/enforcer. He was an important part of the team but is not among the GOATs. Maybe you had to be there to understand what Butch and Bo meant to us.

DWade was great and among the five best ever at MU. But National Championships mean something and the people who led us to 1977 have to be the best. Butch and Bo were leaders!

Galway Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2021, 04:31:59 PM »
Dgies9156

Who are your top 10 shooting guards all time in the history of basketball?
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WhiteTrash

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2021, 09:38:17 PM »
I would argue that Wade was at times the best player in the world.  Both at MU and in the NBA. Just my opinion.

This is from a guy who has Wade's  MU bobble head in his office.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2021, 10:20:56 PM »
If it's really a roster, I think a number of great players should probably be bypassed for guys like Howard, Novak, and McIlvaine. I'm rethinking this a bit. Ultimately, you probably need an 8-deep main roster with specialists around them

PG: Meminger
SG: Wade
SF: Lee
PF: Ellis
C: Chones

For my main bench, I want a guard, wing, and big that can all play 2-3 positions. I take Miller over some other guards because I want a true floor general.

Guard: Miller
Wing: Tatum
Big: Lucas

For the last 7 spots, I want specialists. The situational players that won't necessarily get in much, but are the best there is at what they do.

Microwave scorer: Thompson
Shooters: Howard, Novak
Rim protection: McIlvaine
Rebounder: Kojis
Glue guys: Crowder, Butler

Are there better overall players than some of these? Yes. But in terms of meeting their role, I think this covers every key scenario. You need a stop? Bring in Mac and Jimmy. Down big and need to come back? Tag George and Markus. Gotta secure a tough rebound? It's Don and Jae.

While there are better players, is there anyone that will keep Wade, Bo, or Butch from being 30-35 mpg guys? No. So best to figure out who can best fit the role when those guys come out rather than just making an all-star team, half of which will never play.

Solid roster backed by sound reasoning. One can always pick a nit here and there but I think you pretty much nailed it.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2021, 10:22:38 PM »
Jimmy Butler

Good, not great career at MU. Gets a no from me.
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romey

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #71 on: August 03, 2021, 10:08:57 AM »
Top All-Time MU in the NBA

Dwyane Wade -- By far the best
Maurice Lucas -- The Enforcer
Wes Matthews -- Good journeyman in the NBA, great MU Player
Jimmy Butler -- Who would have thought it when he was at MU?
Jae Crowder -- Slight tilt toward Jae because he is more modern; wanted to consider Chones here.

In the Discussion
Jim Chones -- Could flip with Jae and I'd be just as happy.
Dean Meminger -- Great guard with the Knicks, couldn't shoot to save his life.
Doc Rivers -- Probably better in the NBA than in college.
Steve Novak -- 14 years in the Show speaks for itself.
Markus Howard -- We'll see how this one works out.
Tony Smith -- Anyone who backed up Magic and had an engineering degree has to be special.

A sleeper was Chris Crawford.  I was somewhat disconnected from MU hoops for a while in the 90's and oughts and suddenly I see Crawford in the box scores in ATL.
Don't forget what Kojis put up in terms of numbers in the NBA also.

Jockey

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2021, 12:26:54 PM »
Be prepared for 800 "then they need to learn their history" replies.

Like all fan bases......folks love to idolize the good ole days

Edit to add: any list like this is going to have either 51% like or hate it and it'll drive discussion in the off season. The logic behind the picks seems reasonable

So you think people expecting All-American players to be on the list is somewhat unreasonable?

Galway Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #73 on: August 03, 2021, 12:31:56 PM »
So you think people expecting All-American players to be on the list is somewhat unreasonable?

No but Jerel was an All American, so was Lazar. I think the "these guys were all Americans!" Argument used for the 70s guys isn't as effective when you write it off for the more modern guys.
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oldwarrior81

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2021, 07:45:32 PM »
Lazar did get on The Sporting News 5th team All American in 2010.
The AP announces three teams, but that year they had a huge list of 43 players listed as Honorable Mention, which is what Lazar made. 
A little bit of a stretch to compare his Honorable mention with that of the Marquette first or second team All-Americans from the past.


The list is fairly short for those making an AP All-American team:
1971:  Meminger 1st
1972:  Chones 1st
1976:  Tatum 2nd
1977:  Butch 2nd,  Ellis 3rd
1978:  Butch 1st
1980:  Worthen 2nd
2003:  Wade 1st
2009:  McNeal 2nd
2012:  Crowder 2nd
2019:  Howard 2nd
2020:  Howard 1st