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Author Topic: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster  (Read 4543 times)

NYWarrior

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Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« on: July 26, 2021, 02:56:09 PM »
Todd had a bit of fun building this one ... good off-season fodder, enjoy

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2021/07/the-all-time-marquette-15-man-roster.html

MuggsyB

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2021, 07:03:34 PM »
Chones?  I'm not sure about Doc.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2021, 07:16:14 PM »
No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

MuggsyB

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2021, 07:25:54 PM »
No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

Oh...right.  Great points Lenny.  Where are these guys?? And I also agree about Tony Smith.

MU82

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2021, 07:35:54 PM »
Yeah, that's not the best list. Missed at least a half-dozen players as good as or better than most listed. But he did kind of apologize in advance for leaving out some guys from Marquette's only great basketball era.
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Badgerhater

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2021, 07:51:04 PM »
No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

More and more MU fans do not who those players are.   

naginiF

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2021, 07:56:30 PM »
More and more MU fans do not who those players are.
Be prepared for 800 "then they need to learn their history" replies.

Like all fan bases......folks love to idolize the good ole days

Edit to add: any list like this is going to have either 51% like or hate it and it'll drive discussion in the off season. The logic behind the picks seems reasonable
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 07:58:56 PM by naginiF »

MuggsyB

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2021, 07:59:01 PM »
More and more MU fans do not who those players are.

They know Lucas, Meminger, Lee, and Ellis but not Kojis, Thompson, Chones, Tatum, and Smith.  I'm not sure I buy that.

Its DJOver

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2021, 08:10:23 PM »
Todd had a bit of fun building this one ... good off-season fodder, enjoy

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2021/07/the-all-time-marquette-15-man-roster.html

Nice list.  Always going to have a bit of subjectivity, but I think you balanced old school and new school well.  Also think it was smart to name it "top roster" not just top 15 players, because, nothing against him, but it's tough to say that a 6-3 200lb forward deserves a spot on the top roster, with the way the game and positions has changed the last 60 years.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2021, 08:46:30 PM »
They know Lucas, Meminger, Lee, and Ellis but not Kojis, Thompson, Chones, Tatum, and Smith.  I'm not sure I buy that.

+1.

Regarding “balancing” old and new - if our last 10 years had produced what 1968 -1977 did - an NCAA championship, an NCAA runner up, a bunch of Elite 8s, and an NIT title - and 10 straight years in the top 10 - and the previous 50 years combined didn’t add up to anything remotely close - how do you think this “all time team” would be “balanced”

Jimmy Mac would be embarrassed to be picked over Jimmy Chones. Leaving George or Kojis off is ridiculous. Ditto Earl Tatum.

Herman Cain

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2021, 09:09:52 PM »
I watched Kojis many times in the pros and he was a helluva player . He George Thompson and Earl Tatum we’re all truly exceptional college players .

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MuggsyB

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2021, 09:29:26 PM »
+1.

Regarding “balancing” old and new - if our last 10 years had produced what 1968 -1977 did - an NCAA championship, an NCAA runner up, a bunch of Elite 8s, and an NIT title - and 10 straight years in the top 10 - and the previous 50 years combined didn’t add up to anything remotely close - how do you think this “all time team” would be “balanced”

Jimmy Mac would be embarrassed to be picked over Jimmy Chones. Leaving George or Kojis off is ridiculous. Ditto Earl Tatum.

Lenny,  you have very strong points here. I was born in '83 but know that the players you listed were apparently forgotten by the writer.  Perhaps he lost focus and will admit he whiffed badly.

mileskishnish72

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2021, 09:34:21 PM »
No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

Lenny, you're right on.

muwarrior69

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2021, 09:42:17 PM »
No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

All Time Yankee Team: Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Reggie Jackson, Thurmon Munson, Derek Jeter.

What! No Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra?

muwarrior69

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2021, 09:47:09 PM »
Nice list.  Always going to have a bit of subjectivity, but I think you balanced old school and new school well.  Also think it was smart to name it "top roster" not just top 15 players, because, nothing against him, but it's tough to say that a 6-3 200lb forward deserves a spot on the top roster, with the way the game and positions has changed the last 60 years.

...but you left out all time.

Its DJOver

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2021, 10:03:09 PM »
...but you left out all time.

1, as I said, it's all subjective, because of course it is.  There's no way to objectively prove how players would perform across decades.

2, the list is titled, "all time mubb roster", not "all time top 15 players relative to their era's".  Those are two different lists, and while they will obviously have some overlap, there will also be outliers.  For example, I don't think Novak is a top 15 player in program history.  I don't think his overall body of work merits that claim.  I think it would be tough to find somebody that does have that opinion.  Yet, if I had to put together an actual roster, I would want someone where I know that with the game on the line, are automatic from the stripe (sorry Davante), so I would put Novak on that roster over players that have all around more talent than he does.

3, I think the "team success" argument being made again is not very strong.  If Diener doesn't go off against Holy Cross, Wade never gets the trip doub or the FF, and his team success would be significantly less, but that would have in no way prevented him from being on the list.  Markus' lack of team success has been very well documented here, yet he obliterated the all time scoring, and three year scoring, records by so much that him and his 0 NCAA tournament wins should still be on here, IMO of course.

If I had to put together an all time mubb roster would it look different that the OP's? Yea, probably.  If I had to put together an all time player relative to their era list, it would again look different.  The OP explains why he made the decisions that he did, and while I may not agree with all of them, I can still say that it's a nice list.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2021, 10:05:17 PM »
No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.

If the author was including what they did in the NBA, JFB and Rivers belong, IMHO. Other than that, can't disagree with you.
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willie warrior

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2021, 04:07:43 AM »
No Don Kojis? C’mon. No Jim Chones? OMG. No George Thompson? Ridiculous. No Earl Tatum? Almost as bad.

Putting guys like Jim McIlvaive (OMG), Doc Rivers (tons of hype, not a great college career), Jerel McNeal, JFB and Travis ahead of these guys is just wrong.

I’d put Tony Smith on there as a walk on, too.
Need to bump the number to at least 20

Chones, Kojis, Thompson, and a few others like Tatum, Tony Smith, Walton deserve to be in there.

brewcity77

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2021, 07:48:04 AM »
You always will get pushback, but here's my 15:

Starters: Meminger, Wade, Lee, Ellis, Chones

Bench: Miller, Thompson, Tatum, Lucas, McIlvaine

Reserves: Diener, Howard, Kojis, Crowder, Novak

For my starters, I tried to take the 5 best of all time. Where there are questions about guys that should be on that first list (Thompson, Lucas particularly) I tried to make a second line. My reserves are a mix of shooting and switchables.

As the question is best roster, I included guys like McIlvaine, Howard, and Novak because they have essential talents in rim protection and shooting.

The toughest spot was Kojis over Jerel and Lazar. Ultimately, I feel my roster has enough guards (Wade, Thompson) that are better than Jerel and I'd rather have Howard's PG ability & shooting and Kojis' rebounding from a 2/3, while Hayward misses out because I just think Crowder is a similar but better player.
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Marquette Overload

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2021, 08:16:16 AM »
Be prepared for 800 "then they need to learn their history" replies.

Like all fan bases......folks love to idolize the good ole days

Learn your history and idolize the good ole days over at www.muoverload.com and www.twitter.com/muoverload!
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MU82

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2021, 08:33:34 AM »
You always will get pushback, but here's my 15:

Starters: Meminger, Wade, Lee, Ellis, Chones

Bench: Miller, Thompson, Tatum, Lucas, McIlvaine

Reserves: Diener, Howard, Kojis, Crowder, Novak

For my starters, I tried to take the 5 best of all time. Where there are questions about guys that should be on that first list (Thompson, Lucas particularly) I tried to make a second line. My reserves are a mix of shooting and switchables.

As the question is best roster, I included guys like McIlvaine, Howard, and Novak because they have essential talents in rim protection and shooting.

The toughest spot was Kojis over Jerel and Lazar. Ultimately, I feel my roster has enough guards (Wade, Thompson) that are better than Jerel and I'd rather have Howard's PG ability & shooting and Kojis' rebounding from a 2/3, while Hayward misses out because I just think Crowder is a similar but better player.

Well thought-out. Quibbling is always part of these kinds of lists, but I'd happily take that roster into battle.

Like all fan bases......folks love to idolize the good ole days.

It doesn't take much pining for "good ole days" to realize that Chones was 3x the basketball player McIlvaine was. (And for the record, Chones was before my time at MU, too.)

What's funny is that the Wade-Diener-Novak era is approaching "good ole days" territory, and in 15-20 years, MU fans will be saying that Robot McRoboterson is better than Wade ever was!

“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

Goose

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2021, 09:26:13 AM »
That list gave me a good laugh. Not a tremendous of credibility with the list, IMO.

The Lens

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2021, 09:33:14 AM »
Tom Crean's mission is complete: George Thompson was left off MU's All-time Team.

The Godfather of Marquette Basketball was was left off MU's All-time Team.

The true scoring champion was left off MU's All-time Team.

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2021, 09:43:25 AM »
The true scoring champion was left off MU's All-time Team.


These are the types of lines that gets people to roll their eyes about the past..  Markus has more points and more points per game.  In what way is George Thompson the "true scoring champion?"
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Cracked Sidewalks: All-Time #MUBB roster
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2021, 09:48:02 AM »
Well thought-out. Quibbling is always part of these kinds of lists, but I'd happily take that roster into battle.

It doesn't take much pining for "good ole days" to realize that Chones was 3x the basketball player McIlvaine was. (And for the record, Chones was before my time at MU, too.)

What's funny is that the Wade-Diener-Novak era is approaching "good ole days" territory, and in 15-20 years, MU fans will be saying that Robot McRoboterson is better than Wade ever was!

Jay Whitehead > Jimmy Mac for the 2nd team, especially if the NBA seems to be included. Now if the best player-advantaged NBA contract is the criteria, then Mac is first team all by himself.