Is Marquette "Culturally Insensitive?"

[Heisenberg]

A commission appointed by Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot identified city statutes that it called "problematic" and should potentially be removed.

https://chicagomonuments.org/monuments

This list includes that noted racist Abraham Lincoln (five statues), George Washington (two statues), Christopher Columbus, and Jacques Marquette. The Marquette statues are highlighted below.

So, if Chicago decides Marquette is racist, how long until the discussion turns to MU changing its name?

Tablet Dedicated to Jolliet and Marquette



Jaques Marquette-Louis Jollet Memorial



Damen Avenue Bridge Marquette Monument

[Billy Hoyle]

well, our seal is a symbol of white supremacy per groups on campus so who the hell knows where this will go.

I (half) joked about this over the summer and was assured Father Marquette was in the clear.

[JWags85]

Her tenure continues to be full of misguided focus and priorities. Of all the problems in Chicago, this is a focus? I mean come on.

And then you look at the actual list. A hundred year old statue of Leif Erickson is a potential problem now?  Lincoln and Grant are now controversial?  I'm not one for whitewashing history, but this list may as well be "we deem any white man alive before the Civil Rights movement as a problem."

[Billy Hoyle]

Her tenure continues to be full of misguided focus and priorities. Of all the problems in Chicago, this is a focus? I mean come on.

And then you look at the actual list. A hundred year old statue of Leif Erickson is a potential problem now?  Lincoln and Grant are now controversial?  I'm not one for whitewashing history, but this list may as well be "we deem any white man alive before the Civil Rights movement as a problem."

I guess she's trying to keep up with the San Francisco School Board.

As for the list, when this guy isn't good enough his statue is dumped in the lake, who is?  https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/who-was-hans-heg-whose-statue-was-torn-down-in-madison-heres-why-the-civil/article_4fbfaa15-f1c6-5c4a-b609-a4cab462b448.html

[Jockey]

Her tenure continues to be full of misguided focus and priorities. Of all the problems in Chicago, this is a focus? I mean come on.

And then you look at the actual list. A hundred year old statue of Leif Erickson is a potential problem now?  Lincoln and Grant are now controversial?  I'm not one for whitewashing history, but this list may as well be "we deem any white man alive before the Civil Rights movement as a problem."

Well, if judging men who lived hundreds of years ago based on the standards of 2021 is the way to go, then...

[Pakuni]

A commission appointed by Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot identified city statutes that it called "problematic" and should potentially be removed.

This isn't what the commission said.
Here's what the commission actually said:

Out of a collection of over 500 monumental sculptures, commemorative plaques and artworks on the public way and in Chicago parks, the following have been identified for public discussion.
We invite you to review the artworks that have been identified, suggest others, and to share your opinions on the role of monuments in Chicago's public spaces.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Grant probably did more to benefit Black Americans than any other President in US History.

[The Sultan]

Grant probably did more to benefit Black Americans than any other President in US History.

How?

[Heisenberg]

This isn't what the commission said.
Here's what the commission actually said:

Out of a collection of over 500 monumental sculptures, commemorative plaques and artworks on the public way and in Chicago parks, the following have been identified for public discussion.
We invite you to review the artworks that have been identified, suggest others, and to share your opinions on the role of monuments in Chicago's public spaces.

What do you think the point of the public discussion is?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

How?

Read Ron Chernow's Grant.  (Yes, Grant drank.  We don't need 200 pages about it.)

More brief, he signed the Civil Rights Act of 1875, established the Justice Dept to take on the Klan, sent federal troops to the south to enforce the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.  Many Blacks were elected to office during Reconstruction in the South. 

Unfortunately the SC overturned the 1875 Act and Grant's presidency was tarnished by scandals among his aids.

A very honest and good man, with very little "street smarts".

[Galway Eagle]

Grant probably did more to benefit Black Americans than any other President in US History.

No that was trump. He told us so himself

Her tenure continues to be full of misguided focus and priorities. Of all the problems in Chicago, this is a focus? I mean come on.

And then you look at the actual list. A hundred year old statue of Leif Erickson is a potential problem now?  Lincoln and Grant are now controversial?  I'm not one for whitewashing history, but this list may as well be "we deem any white man alive before the Civil Rights movement as a problem."

I agree. This is absurd

[Billy Hoyle]

Read Ron Chernow's Grant.  (Yes, Grant drank.  We don't need 200 pages about it.)

More brief, he signed the Civil Rights Act of 1875, established the Justice Dept to take on the Klan, sent federal troops to the south to enforce the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.  Many Blacks were elected to office during Reconstruction in the South. 

Unfortunately the SC overturned the 1875 Act and Grant's presidency was tarnished by scandals among his aids.

A very honest and good man, with very little "street smarts".

The strike I hear against Grant was he owned a slave...an individual given to him by his father-in-law as a wedding gift. Grant emancipated that individual and did not charge him the "freedom license" that was standard practice at the time. Additionally, when working on his father-in-law's farm Grant worked with slaves but was open about his feelings of shame in doing so.

Of course, that past may be enough to invalidate everything Grant did to benefit the African-American population in the US. According to woke culture, one's past cannot be erased by further good and noble deeds...except Malcolm X, whose past includes pimping. However, when the SFSB rejected removing his name from schools they said his past was redeemed by his later life (never mind that pimping is basically the enslavement of women).

[rocket surgeon]

"the following have been identified for public discussion."

isn't this how fr wilde started up the "discussion" on MU's nicname?

umm kay, let's see how this plays out

[CTWarrior]

Well, if judging men who lived hundreds of years ago based on the standards of 2021 is the way to go, then...

Yes.

I have a sneaking suspicion that a few hundred years from now the vegetarians will win and meat eating may be outlawed.  At that point will there be movements to take down MLK Jr statues because he enjoyed a steak now and again? 

And a lot of folks will be just as convinced that we and our ancestors knew in our hearts that eating meat was wrong.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Read Ron Chernow's Grant.  (Yes, Grant drank.  We don't need 200 pages about it.)

More brief, he signed the Civil Rights Act of 1875, established the Justice Dept to take on the Klan, sent federal troops to the south to enforce the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.  Many Blacks were elected to office during Reconstruction in the South. 

Unfortunately the SC overturned the 1875 Act and Grant's presidency was tarnished by scandals among his aids.

A very honest and good man, with very little "street smarts".

He also sympathized with Native-Americans plight and he completely reset American Government policy on Native-American relations with his PEACE policy. 

Too bad some of his aids were corrupt because Grant himself was clean.
He reputation was "tarnished" by a concerted effort over time by Confederate sympathizers and by the Daughters of Confederacy campaign.

[Heisenberg]

"the following have been identified for public discussion."

isn't this how fr wilde started up the "discussion" on MU's nicname?

umm kay, let's see how this plays out

Exactly ... These statues were single out by a commission of the Mayor set up to look at cultural insensitivities.

They are careful to say no decisions have been made, and indeed no decisions have been made.  They just want to talk.

We all know where this is going.

[The Sultan]

Read Ron Chernow's Grant.  (Yes, Grant drank.  We don't need 200 pages about it.)

More brief, he signed the Civil Rights Act of 1875, established the Justice Dept to take on the Klan, sent federal troops to the south to enforce the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.  Many Blacks were elected to office during Reconstruction in the South. 

Unfortunately the SC overturned the 1875 Act and Grant's presidency was tarnished by scandals among his aids.

A very honest and good man, with very little "street smarts".

Thank you.  I have to admit I didn't know much about him as a President.  Sounds like a good read

[Heisenberg]

So, after the Fr Marquette statues are removed because it is decided he is like Lincoln, a racist (and they remove his five statues and rename Lincoln Park) ... what happens next?

Does the City of Chicago, which owns Wintrust arena, bans teams with culturally insensitive names like Marquette from playing in it? Does MU then fold as it did in the earlier 90s over the state's pressure about Indian nicknames?

This a road that may take a while, but we all know what the destination will be.

Should I start a thread about what the new name of the school will be?  Or what the future name of Lincoln Park will be (this is easy ... Obama Park, next to the Obamaville neighborhood).

[Galway Eagle]

So, after the Fr Marquette statues are removed because it is decided he is like Lincoln, a racist (and they remove his five statues and rename Lincoln Park) ... what happens Next?

Does the City of Chicago, which owns Wintrust arena, bans teams with culturally insensitive names like Marquette from playing in it? Does MU then fold as it did in the earlier 90s over the state's pressure about Indian nicknames?

This a road that may take a while, but we all know what the destination will be.

Should I start a thread about what the new name of the school will be?  Or what the future name of Lincoln Park will be (this is easy ... Obama Park, next to Obamaville).

I suggest you review basic critical thinking.

https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/


But again for the record I'm against it going this far. There's objectively wrong (confederate monuments and statues) and then there's nitpicking and holding old times to moral standards of today.

[The Sultan]

Of course this is absurd.  And the San Francisco school board is taking the absurdity to an entirely new, and occasionally funnily inaccurate manner.

But erecting statues and giving other honors to the likes of Robert E. Lee is just as absurd.  Sometimes when people aren't willing to engage in a good faith discussion about one absurdity, they engage in others.  Maybe instead of getting all up in arms as a first reaction, people should be more open to listening to other's points of view.

And no...Marquette University won't be changing its name.

[The Sultan]

I suggest you review basic critical thinking.

https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/

Why should he start now?  It's how he gets is Scoop clicks.

[Hards Alumni]

So, after the Fr Marquette statues are removed because it is decided he is like Lincoln, a racist (and they remove his five statues and rename Lincoln Park) ... what happens next?

Does the City of Chicago, which owns Wintrust arena, bans teams with culturally insensitive names like Marquette from playing in it? Does MU then fold as it did in the earlier 90s over the state's pressure about Indian nicknames?

This a road that may take a while, but we all know what the destination will be.

Should I start a thread about what the new name of the school will be?  Or what the future name of Lincoln Park will be (this is easy ... Obama Park, next to Obamaville).

I wouldn't worry, we will all be long dead before any of this happens.

Slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies.  Treat each case on its own merit.

FWIW, I think the name Marquette is just fine, and not culturally insensitive.  Sometimes you guys need to just relax a little and realize that when the Mayor of Chicago says absurd things, and any politician says or does something absurd, they're trying to distract you from something else that is happening or change the narrative.

[skianth16]

Of course this is absurd.  And the San Francisco school board is taking the absurdity to an entirely new, and occasionally funnily inaccurate manner.

But erecting statues and giving other honors to the likes of Robert E. Lee is just as absurd.  Sometimes when people aren't willing to engage in a good faith discussion about one absurdity, they engage in others.  Maybe instead of getting all up in arms as a first reaction, people should be more open to listening to other's points of view.

And no...Marquette University won't be changing its name.

I have a feeling we'll look back on this point in history and  chuckle at how certain people/things got really twisted out or proportion. I'm guessing this is just an example of the pendulum swinging a little too far in the other direction and not really being indicative of where we eventually land.

As to Marquette, I doubt the university will change its name. But given the current climate nationally and on campus, I can easily see some student groups proposing that the name be changed. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some kind of protest pushing for a change.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm going to go on record as saying that the statues of Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, and Jacques Marquette in Chicago will not end up being torn down.

[Heisenberg]

Of course this is absurd.  And the San Francisco school board is taking the absurdity to an entirely new, and occasionally funnily inaccurate manner.

But erecting statues and giving other honors to the likes of Robert E. Lee is just as absurd.  Sometimes when people aren't willing to engage in a good faith discussion about one absurdity, they engage in others.  Maybe instead of getting all up in arms as a first reaction, people should be more open to listening to other's points of view.

And no...Marquette University won't be changing its name.

FIFY

And no...Marquette University won't be changing its nickname.
- circa the late 1980s