Is Marquette "Culturally Insensitive?"

[Not A Serious Person]

Part of that is dribble.

But we agree on not erasing history. That's what museums are for.

Of course, you would think it is dribble ... it makes you feel uncomfortable walking around with the morally superior feeling you prefer.

Your footer reminds us of this every time you post.

[Not A Serious Person]

What did I say that was inaccurate?

I never said it was inaccurate, I said you have a revisionist history take. Not the same thing.

Child psychologists tell us that small children, under five, do not know the difference between facts and opinions.  What they believe is what they think is.

Apparently, you have not emotionally matured beyond this point and still constantly show you do not know the difference between the two.

[Not A Serious Person]

Heisey you are the one revising history.  The memorials immediately after the War were largely dedicated to those who died in the War.  Those to confederate "heroes" like Robert E. Lee, were largely erected during the Jim Crow era, long after Reconstruction ended and the south was back on full terms.

And it never occurred to you that the Jim Crow South was a regression and, maybe the beginning movement toward a second civil war?  And instead of hammering them (like you want today) resulting in another war and hundreds of thousands more dead, the country let them preserve their history as they wanted and brought them along as equals.

ADDED LATER

Maybe circa 1900, the country was smart enough to not hammer those in The South that preferred Jim Crow, and erecting Robert E. Lee statues because it would make it worse.  So, while they did not like it, they tolerated it in an attempt to bring them along without more violence.

And Maybe circa 2020, the country was smart enough to not hammer those in pushed for Black Lives Matter and tore down statues and burned down Kenosha because it would make it worse.  So, while they did not like it, they tolerated it in an attempt to bring them along without more violence.

As much as want to pretend otherwise, history often repeats.

[Hards Alumni]

Or ...

After the civil war, The North had a choice.  Treat The South like a conquered people or invite them back into the United States as full citizens.  This is something that has rarely if ever been done in the history of civil wars.

To show they were indeed full citizens, the south was allowed to preserve its history, even though they erected monuments to those that killed hundreds of thousands of northern soldiers, not to mention the assassination of an American President in the name of the South.

Maybe these statues were instrumental in bringing along south into reintegration of the United States as equal citizens, and in their way, helped to prevent a second civil war and a breaking of the country into two.

Hards, Fluffy, and 82 do not understand this. Probably because they prefer to take the morally superior explanation revisionist history explanations (most likely to make themselves feel better).  Probably never occurred to them a lot of these monuments were viewed by the northern population as those responsible for the death of the brothers, sons, and fathers.  It was a powerful symbol to the South that they were invited back as equals and not as the conquered.

That said, if these statues have taken on a different meaning, I'm fine if elected officials decide to remove them.  And if they want to put them in a museum of American history, I'm also ok what that too, in fact, I would prefer it.  History should never be erased, and should never be bastardized into a revision like done here.

You're just making most of this up.  Sorry.  The statues went up long after everyone who fought in the Civil War had died.  There was never going to be a second civil war in the time period you're referencing, and I challenge you to find literature to actually back up that claim and then display it here. 

[Not A Serious Person]

You're just making most of this up.  Sorry.  The statues went up long after everyone who fought in the Civil War had died.  There was never going to be a second civil war in the time period you're referencing, and I challenge you to find literature to actually back up that claim and then display it here.

Are you saying you never heard of reconstruction, or what its purpose was?  Or did you honestly think it was merely about fixing war-torn buildings?


Read a book
https://www.amazon.com/Ordeal-Reunion-History-Reconstruction-Littlefield/dp/1469617579

[4everwarriors]

Probably should take Eli Callaway's name off the building at Emory. As far as I know they only make neon yellow and white golf balls, aina?

[Pakuni]

Just a sampling of Heisey's historical ignorance.

Fort Bragg ... dedicated in 1918.
Fort Benning .... 1917.
Fort Hood .... 1942.
Jefferson Davis statue in the Alabama state capitol .... 1940
The Edmund Pettus Bridge in Alabama(named for a confederate general and Alabama Grand Dragon of the KKK) .... 1940.
Statutes of Lee and Jackson in Charlottesville .... 1917 and 1919, respectively.
Hood's Texas Brigage monument at the Texas state capitol .... 1910
John Brown Gordon (confederate general and KKK leader) statue at Georgia state capitol ... 1907

The vast majority of these monuments, statutes and other public recognitions of Confederate figures came generations after the war ended, and in no way were part of some kind of reconciliation of Heisey's imagination.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Just a sampling of Heisey's historical ignorance.

Fort Bragg ... dedicated in 1918.
Fort Benning .... 1917.
Fort Hood .... 1942.
Jefferson Davis statue in the Alabama state capitol .... 1940
The Edmund Pettus Bridge in Alabama(named for a confederate general and Alabama Grand Dragon of the KKK) .... 1940.
Statutes of Lee and Jackson in Charlottesville .... 1917 and 1919, respectively.
Hood's Texas Brigage monument at the Texas state capitol .... 1910
John Brown Gordon (confederate general and KKK leader) statue at Georgia state capitol ... 1907

The vast majority of these monuments, statutes and other public recognitions of Confederate figures came generations after the war ended, and in no way were part of some kind of reconciliation of Heisey's imagination.

“But they were just preventing another Civil War!”

Lolololololololololol...

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

And it never occurred to you that the Jim Crow South was a regression and, maybe the beginning movement toward a second civil war?

Why would something so painfully inaccurate occur to me?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Child psychologists tell us that small children, under five, do not know the difference between facts and opinions.  What they believe is what they think is.

LOL. Given your wholesale manufacturing of alternative facts in this thread alone, this is amusing.

[MU82]

Of course, you would think it is dribble ... it makes you feel uncomfortable walking around with the morally superior feeling you prefer.

It's dribble because it's dribble.

The vast majority of confederate statues, plaques and other symbols were put up decades after the Civil War. And the confederate flags that the deposed president says are wonderful are still being flown today. They honor only racists.

I know actual factual facts make you feel uncomfortable because you prefer alternative facts that help you build upon your smugness.

[Hards Alumni]

Are you saying you never heard of reconstruction, or what its purpose was?  Or did you honestly think it was merely about fixing war-torn buildings?


Read a book
https://www.amazon.com/Ordeal-Reunion-History-Reconstruction-Littlefield/dp/1469617579

LMFAO.  Brother, I know exactly what Reconstruction was.  I'm not reading a book your suggested without even reading it yourself.  There is plenty of literature that flies directly in the face of your original claim.  And your reply is that I need to read a book you suggested. 

Do you what century we live in?

[Billy Hoyle]

Google  "non-sequitur."

Why? Serra statues are coming down. Why? For converting Natives to Christianity.

https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2020/06/22/who-st-junipero-serra-and-why-are-california-protesters-toppling-his

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Why? Serra statues are coming down. Why? For converting Natives to Christianity.

https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2020/06/22/who-st-junipero-serra-and-why-are-california-protesters-toppling-his

Did you actually read the article you quoted? Nowhere does it say his statues are coming down because Serra "converted Natives to Christianity."

From your article:

While Serra is credited with spreading the Catholic faith across what is now California, critics say Serra was part of an imperial conquest that beat and enslaved Native Americans.

and

Native Americans brought into the mission to be evangelized were not allowed to leave the grounds. Many labored for no pay. There is evidence of beatings, imprisonment and other abuse at the hands of the missionaries.

The reason for the protests is not because Serra was a missionary but because the tactics used at the missions he founded involved kidnapping, slavery, and physical abuse. There is also evidence that suggests that it wasn't just something that happened at the missions but something that Serra participated in as well. He was also a member of the Spanish Inquisition and accused multiple people of witchcraft and devil worship which likely resulted in those people's deaths.

Despite all of that, I condemn the vandalism and believe that a majority of the statues should remain...but a more honest depiction of his treatment of Native Americans should be a part of the narrative accompanying those statues.

[Billy Hoyle]

Did you actually read the article you quoted? Nowhere does it say his statues are coming down because Serra "converted Natives to Christianity."

From your article:

and

The reason for the protests is not because Serra was a missionary but because the tactics used at the missions he founded involved kidnapping, slavery, and physical abuse. There is also evidence that suggests that it wasn't just something that happened at the missions but something that Serra participated in as well. He was also a member of the Spanish Inquisition and accused multiple people of witchcraft and devil worship which likely resulted in those people's deaths.

Despite all of that, I condemn the vandalism and believe that a majority of the statues should remain...but a more honest depiction of his treatment of Native Americans should be a part of the narrative accompanying those statues.

He’s a “colonizer” and therefore bad. And we don’t know that HE was involved all of that. What we do know, per the article:

“He preached God’s compassion, fought for the dignity of women and the rights of America’s native peoples, and he was probably the first person in the Americas to make a moral case against capital punishment," Gómez said.

The Catholic News Agency detailed how Serra asked Spanish authorities to spare the lives of the California natives who had attacked a San Diego mission.”

If our university seal is a symbol of white supremacy will the name of the university be far behind?

[WellsstreetWanderer]

A wise man ,I believe Churchil, said something like. If you don't read into the past you will never see far into the future.
Because of what we don't teach our students now we are seeing the past re-emerge

[MU82]

Nobody here is saying ignore the past. We’re saying don’t honor traitors who were fighting for the right to continue enslaving human beings.

[Not A Serious Person]

Just a sampling of Heisey's historical ignorance.

Fort Bragg ... dedicated in 1918.
Fort Benning .... 1917.
Fort Hood .... 1942.
Jefferson Davis statue in the Alabama state capitol .... 1940
The Edmund Pettus Bridge in Alabama(named for a confederate general and Alabama Grand Dragon of the KKK) .... 1940.
Statutes of Lee and Jackson in Charlottesville .... 1917 and 1919, respectively.
Hood's Texas Brigage monument at the Texas state capitol .... 1910
John Brown Gordon (confederate general and KKK leader) statue at Georgia state capitol ... 1907

The vast majority of these monuments, statutes and other public recognitions of Confederate figures came generations after the war ended, and in no way were part of some kind of reconciliation of Heisey's imagination.

You're really slipping with your google trolling (too much Toobin-ing?) because you forgot that on October 17, 1978, President Carter pardoned Confederate President Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee.  This was done to allow them to be US Citizens again (they were stripped of citizenship in 1865).


If history was actually studied we would have found that something extraordinary happened after 1865.  For arguably the first and only time in human history a group that violently tried to secede from their country fought a war that killed 600,000 soldiers (still the bloodiest war in American history), was then invited back into that country as full citizens (save the handful of leaders) without any retribution.  They were even allowed to have their representation back in the federal government as it was before the war.  It was truly an extraordinary accomplishment. No one has pulled it off before or since.

Part of what made this work was the South was allowed to celebrate and memorialize its history.  That celebration continued for well over 100 years.  That includes the monuments and the open displays of the rebel flag.  It was all part of Southern heritage.

Celebrating their heritage was not building some statues between 1865 and 1870 and calling it a day.  It was about having Southern Pride despite trying to secede and losing.  That Southern Pride went on for generations.

“But they were just preventing another Civil War!”

Lolololololololololol...

Yes, that is exactly what they were doing. They understood, because they actually studied history, that the type of Civil War we fought was often the first of many such conflicts.  They did not want to South to try and leave again or become an angry underclass.

But today that history is forgotten.  And we think it is a virtue that our mind is closed and want everyone to celebrate our mind is closed and staying that way ... like these guys.

LMFAO.  Brother, I know exactly what Reconstruction was.  I'm not reading a book your suggested without even reading it yourself.  There is plenty of literature that flies directly in the face of your original claim.  And your reply is that I need to read a book you suggested. 

Do you what century we live in?

Nobody here is saying ignore the past. We’re saying don’t honor traitors who were fighting for the right to continue enslaving human beings.

The truth is they have no idea what Reconstruction was really about and proudly announced they are not interested in learning about it.

It was one of the extraordinary achievements in human history ... merging two warring groups back into one without any more bloodshot or animosity.

We prefer an alternate history.  That is, everyone that came before us was terrible and racist.  The first 150 years of the country's history needs to be canceled.  This guy believes this, it is the only possible outcome to his comments.

It's dribble because it's dribble.

The vast majority of confederate statues, plaques and other symbols were put up decades after the Civil War. And the confederate flags that the deposed president says are wonderful are still being flown today. They honor only racists.

I know actual factual facts make you feel uncomfortable because you prefer alternative facts that help you build upon your smugness.

Again, it took about 170 years to pass for the events of the 19th century to take on a different meaning.  That is fine.  And I'm fine if we want to remove the symbols of that period, so long as we stop with the ignorant view of the "circle jerk of the Superbar" that everything that came before was terrible and we are the era of the enlightenment.

The circle Jerk represents far too many ignorant people that think they are brilliant because they can google Atlantic and New York Times magazine articles from the last 10 years and think that is the only take away from history.

The circle jerk is going to lead the effort to cancel 150 years of American history, include father Marquette and all the symbols of him, and everyone, of every race, will be worse off when that happens.

[MU82]

Whatever you have to say or do to feel better about yourself, Smuggles. You're a one-man circle jerk.

[Pakuni]

Explains a thing or two about you know who.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/feb/22/people-with-extremist-views-less-able-to-do-complex-mental-tasks-research-suggests?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1613953797

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

He’s a “colonizer” and therefore bad. And we don’t know that HE was involved all of that. What we do know, per the article:

“He preached God’s compassion, fought for the dignity of women and the rights of America’s native peoples, and he was probably the first person in the Americas to make a moral case against capital punishment," Gómez said.

The Catholic News Agency detailed how Serra asked Spanish authorities to spare the lives of the California natives who had attacked a San Diego mission.”

If our university seal is a symbol of white supremacy will the name of the university be far behind?

So, I was correct, they aren't vandalizing his statues because "he converted people to Christianity" as you originally claimed. They are vandalizing them because of his role in the kidnapping, enslavement, and physical abuse of the native peoples of California.

You'll also notice that at the end of my post I condemned the vandalizers and said that a majority of the statues should remain up.

I'll admit, my history knowledge on Father Marquette isn't perfect. Have their been any claims that he committed any sort of violence against native peoples? If there hasn't, I don't think the comparisons to Father Serra are valid.

[Not A Serious Person]

Explains a thing or two about you know who.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/feb/22/people-with-extremist-views-less-able-to-do-complex-mental-tasks-research-suggests?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1613953797

Yes, thinking that not everyone that came before the "enlightening period" is an awful terrible racist that needs to be canceled is now an extremist view.

If hacked your account and wanted to prove the point of my post, I could not have done a more efficient job.

Well done!

Whatever you have to say or do to feel better about yourself, Smuggles. You're a one-man circle jerk.

Yes, I feel better thinking that history is full of people that made considered decisions based on the world they lived in. And yes, the opinion of those decisions will change over time, but that does not mean they were automatically terrible racists, like the "enlightened one" that wrote the quote below.

Nobody here is saying ignore the past. We’re saying don’t honor traitors who were fighting for the right to continue enslaving human beings.

See, he has to get angry that they were the worst of humanity, not just doing the best they could.  Why does it have to be angry about history?  Because he wants it canceled, what other conclusion can this opinion lead to?  He wants it canceled so he can stay morally superior.

(Remember Pakuni thinks my post is extremist.  82s view is just conventional wisdom that everyone agrees with ... or they are incapable of complex thought like the "enlightened ones of the circle jerk.")

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Yes, thinking that not everyone that came before the "enlightening period" is an awful terrible racist that needs to be canceled is now an extremist view.

Who said this?  Are you making up stuff again?

Again, you are being purposely absurd in an attempt to make your arguments look valid.  Yet they have been painfully wrong throughout the topic.

But you do you Hesey.  You're getting the Scoop clicks you crave while the rest of us roll our eyes in the process.

[Hards Alumni]

He's on a roll today.  He must have found his 7th grade History book.

[Not A Serious Person]

Who said this?  Are you making up stuff again?

Again, you are being purposely absurd in an attempt to make your arguments look valid.  Yet they have been painfully wrong throughout the topic.

But you do you Hesey.  You're getting the Scoop clicks you crave while the rest of us roll our eyes in the process.

This member of the "enlightened circle jerk of the Superbar" said it.  He called everyone from that period an awful terrible racist. 

And if the "enlightened" truly believe this, there is only one conclusion, tear down all symbols of them and cancel them from history.

And that includes Father Marquette, and all his symbols, including the name of our school, when he is also deemed a vicious racist by the "enlightenment."

Because we shouldn't be honoring traitors who fought a war for the primary purpose of continuing to enslave other people.

It's not hard.