Is Marquette "Culturally Insensitive?"

[Pakuni]

I'm going to go on record as saying that the statues of Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, and Jacques Marquette in Chicago will not end up being torn down.

Chicago?
I think you mean Obamaville.

[The Sultan]

FIFY

And no...Marquette University won't be changing its nickname.
- circa the late 1980s

I guess if you can't see the fundamental difference between changing a nickname, which had been done two times earlier in the schools history, and changing the actual name of the school, I don't know what to tell you.

And nevermind the fact that just because one thing happened at sometime, that doesn't mean that something similar will be happening later.

Just another thing to add to list of stuff you've been wrong about.

[Galway Eagle]

Chicago?
I think you mean Obamaville.

Home of the deep dish Obama, the Obamaville style hot Obama, the Obamaian beef, and beautiful views of lake Obama.

[Pakuni]

Home of the deep dish Obama, the Obamaville style hot Obama, the Obamaian beef, and beautiful views of lake Obama.

And the Super Bowl champion Obama Indigenous Mammals.
(I mean, as long as we're being ridiculous, might as well go for it)

[skianth16]

I'm going to go on record as saying that the statues of Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, and Jacques Marquette in Chicago will not end up being torn down.

Once the points have been made about why these statues can be considered problematic, it could be very risky for a public figure or a prominent community member to defend them. It doesn't take much to get Scarlet Lettered these days, and going on record defending old dead dudes is just the kind of thing that can get you branded.

Plus, Lightfoot is in such a bad place right now that she's probably willing to make this push as a way to score some points with the uber woke crowd while drawing some attention away from the problems her administration has had lately.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Thank you.  I have to admit I didn't know much about him as a President.  Sounds like a good read

Fluff,
History Channel also ran a very good 3-part documentary in May based on the book.

[MUBurrow]

Anything jump out about the depiction of certain folks in all three of the statues in Heisy's original post? 

We don't need to go full tear down on all things Father Marquette.  But a more nuanced depiction of the role of Native Americans in his accomplishments is called for.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Once the points have been made about why these statues can be considered problematic, it could be very risky for a public figure or a prominent community member to defend them. It doesn't take much to get Scarlet Lettered these days, and going on record defending old dead dudes is just the kind of thing that can get you branded.

Plus, Lightfoot is in such a bad place right now that she's probably willing to make this push as a way to score some points with the uber woke crowd while drawing some attention away from the problems her administration has had lately.

Im going to stay on record as none of the statues of Lincoln,  Washington,  or Father Marquette will end up being taken down. Feel free to quote this if I end up being wrong.

[cheebs09]

When some of the statue stuff started I tried to see Father Marquette's treatment of Native Americans and didn't find anything too unseemly. What is the reason he's on the "hot-seat"? Did he not treat Native Americans well in areas he explored? Or their role in the travel party?

[Pakuni]

When some of the statue stuff started I tried to see Father Marquette's treatment of Native Americans and didn't find anything too unseemly. What is the reason he's on the "hot-seat"? Did he not treat Native Americans well in areas he explored? Or their role in the travel party?

The issue does seem to be Marquette, but the depiction of Native Americans in the monuments to Marquette.

[Billy Hoyle]

The issue does seem to be Marquette, but the depiction of Native Americans in the monuments to Marquette.

maybe.  Junipero Serra has been deemed unworthy of having a school named after him (including the HS from which Tom Brady graduated) and statues have been torn down because he was a white colonizer who brought Catholicism to Native population.

The information presented through the petition details the history of the school's namesake Father Junipero Serra, a Franciscan missionary, who came to the new world and converted natives to Christianity.

"His mission was to colonize them, which was to strip them of their culture and force them into Christianity," said Dr. Erica Renfree, Ph.D., the school's principal, who supports the sisters' efforts.

[Pakuni]

maybe.  Junipero Serra has been deemed unworthy of having a school named after him (including the HS from which Tom Brady graduated) and statues have been torn down because he was a white colonizer who brought Catholicism to Native population.

The information presented through the petition details the history of the school's namesake Father Junipero Serra, a Franciscan missionary, who came to the new world and converted natives to Christianity.

"His mission was to colonize them, which was to strip them of their culture and force them into Christianity," said Dr. Erica Renfree, Ph.D., the school's principal, who supports the sisters' efforts.

Google  "non-sequitur."

[Heisenberg]

I guess if you can't see the fundamental difference between changing a nickname, which had been done two times earlier in the schools history, and changing the actual name of the school, I don't know what to tell you.

And nevermind the fact that just because one thing happened at sometime, that doesn't mean that something similar will be happening later.

Just another thing to add to list of stuff you've been wrong about.

Schools are beginning to change their name.

Princeton Renames Wilson School and Residential College, Citing Former President's Racism
https://paw.princeton.edu/article/princeton-renames-wilson-school-and-residential-college-citing-former-presidents-racism

Clemson Removes Calhoun Name From Honors College
https://www.bestcolleges.com/blog/confronting-racism-on-college-campuses/



California districts look to rename schools linked to racist history
https://edsource.org/2020/california-districts-look-to-rename-schools-linked-to-racist-past/634080

So you are already wrong, nice job.

Im going to stay on record as none of the statues of Lincoln,  Washington,  or Father Marquette will end up being taken down. Feel free to quote this if I end up being wrong.

I hope you're right and fear you're wrong.

[Heisenberg]

I suggest you review basic critical thinking.

https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope/


But again for the record I'm against it going this far. There's objectively wrong (confederate monuments and statues) and then there's nitpicking and holding old times to moral standards of today.

Why do you think the country has so many confederate statues?  There is a basic answer and the word "racism" has nothing to do with it.

No cheating ... no googling the answer.  You already said you're against them and they should be taken down so you obviously thought about it.  So, dazzle us with your critical thinking skills

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Schools are beginning to change their name.

Princeton Renames Wilson School and Residential College, Citing Former President's Racism
https://paw.princeton.edu/article/princeton-renames-wilson-school-and-residential-college-citing-former-presidents-racism

California districts look to rename schools linked to racist history
https://edsource.org/2020/california-districts-look-to-rename-schools-linked-to-racist-past/634080

So you are already wrong, nice job.

I hope you're right and fear you are wrong.

Don't blame Princeton for taking Woodrow's racist, progressive, racist name off of their buildings.  Probably one of the worst presidents in history, especially in regards to race.

[Heisenberg]

Don't blame Princeton for taking Woodrow's racist, progressive, racist name off of their buildings.  Probably one of the worst presidents in history, especially in regards to race.

Not buildings ... they had an entire college named after him, a world-leading school for political science.

Also a movement you wipe out the Yale name, a noted slave trader.  Saying no, for now. Let's check back in 5 to 10 years.

Yale Doesn't Need to Change Its Name
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/troll-campaign-rename-yale/613684/

I'll assume that if you think Woodrow Wilson was racist and Princeton was correct, you also think Yale should ditch the name of its school since he was a slave trader.

[The Sultan]

Why do you think the country has so many confederate statues?  There is a basic answer and the word "racism" has nothing to do with it.

No cheating ... no googling the answer.  You already said you're against them and they should be taken down so you obviously thought about it.  So, dazzle us with your critical thinking skills

Because we shouldn't be honoring traitors who fought a war for the primary purpose of continuing to enslave other people.

It's not hard.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Schools are beginning to change their name.

Princeton Renames Wilson School and Residential College, Citing Former President's Racism
https://paw.princeton.edu/article/princeton-renames-wilson-school-and-residential-college-citing-former-presidents-racism

Clemson Removes Calhoun Name From Honors College
https://www.bestcolleges.com/blog/confronting-racism-on-college-campuses/



California districts look to rename schools linked to racist history
https://edsource.org/2020/california-districts-look-to-rename-schools-linked-to-racist-past/634080

So you are already wrong, nice job.

I hope you're right and fear you're wrong.

Yale dropped the name of Calhoun College from one of its residential halls.

[Hards Alumni]

Why do you think the country has so many confederate statues?  There is a basic answer and the word "racism" has nothing to do with it.

No cheating ... no googling the answer.  You already said you're against them and they should be taken down so you obviously thought about it.  So, dazzle us with your critical thinking skills

The country has so many confederate statues because they were erected in the early 20th century by historical revisionists, specifically the UDC.  Statues were placed to intimidate the Black population, and because the myth of the "Lost Cause" was en vogue in the South.  The country had abandoned reconstruction and was moving backward towards what became the Jim Crow era.  When a person sees a monument to someone, they surmise that person is to be revered, as well as their actions and their 'cause'.  Since their 'cause' was slavery, it instilled the mindset that the Confederacy was good, and romanticized a time before the US Civil War.  The idea is clearly cemented in racism and a desire to go back to the past.  And in that quest they succeeded.  Black Americans have been oppressed by White Americans for hundreds of years, and those statues are a reminder of that oppression every day they stand.

Need anymore history lessons today Heisey?

[MU82]

Exactly. Far too many people (mostly racists, but not all) like to argue that the statues were put up in the years shortly after the war to honor the confederate heroes for their sacrifice and that they are an important part of American history. But the vast majority actually were put up decades later as a way for racists to "reclaim" their white heritage, to rally their white supremacist supporters, and to intimidate Black people.

I have yet to hear one viable reason to display a confederate statue or flag or any other kind of confederate symbol on public land in the United States.

If you want to put them in a museum or some other kind of facility where you can give them context, that's one thing. But to have a statue or flag that represented the South's treasonous fight to keep enslaving an entire class of Americans displayed on a college campus or in front of a state capitol, or in front of a town hall ... it's racism, plain and simple.

That the previous president argued so forcefully to keep them ... it just drives that point home.

Nikki Haley, a shrewd and calculating politician, made the correct gambit that finally taking the confederate flag off the S.C. capitol would be a political winner. Sure, it ticked off some of her fellow Republicans, but she now can forever be remembered as the "S.C. governor who took a stand against racism" -- something that will help her when she runs for president in 2024. (We'll see soon enough if the stand she just took against the party's dominant figure will help or hurt her, though.)

[Heisenberg]

Or ...

After the civil war, The North had a choice.  Treat The South like a conquered people or invite them back into the United States as full citizens.  This is something that has rarely if ever been done in the history of civil wars.

To show they were indeed full citizens, the south was allowed to preserve its history, even though they erected monuments to those that killed hundreds of thousands of northern soldiers, not to mention the assassination of an American President in the name of the South.

Maybe these statues were instrumental in bringing along south into reintegration of the United States as equal citizens, and in their way, helped to prevent a second civil war and a breaking of the country into two.

Hards, Fluffy, and 82 do not understand this. Probably because they prefer to take the morally superior explanation revisionist history explanations (most likely to make themselves feel better).  Probably never occurred to them a lot of these monuments were viewed by the northern population as those responsible for the death of the brothers, sons, and fathers.  It was a powerful symbol to the South that they were invited back as equals and not as the conquered.

That said, if these statues have taken on a different meaning, I'm fine if elected officials decide to remove them.  And if they want to put them in a museum of American history, I'm also ok what that too, in fact, I would prefer it.  History should never be erased, and should never be bastardized into a revision like done here.

[MU82]

Or ...

After the civil war, The North had a choice.  Treat The South like a conquered people or invite them back into the United States as full citizens.  This is something that has rarely if ever been done in the history of civil wars.

To show they were indeed full citizens, the south was allowed to preserve its history, even though they erected monuments to those that killed hundreds of thousands of northern soldiers, not to mention the assassination of an American President in the name of the South.

Maybe these statues were instrumental in bringing along south into reintegration of the United States as equal citizens, and in their way, helped to prevent a second civil war and a breaking of the country into two.

Hards, Fluffy, and 82 do not understand this. Probably because they prefer to take the morally superior explanation revisionist history explanations (most likely to make themselves feel better).  Probably never occurred to them a lot of these monuments were viewed by the northern population as those responsible for the death of the brothers, sons, and fathers.  It was a powerful symbol to the South that they were invited back as equals and not as the conquered.

That said, if these statues have taken on a different meaning, I'm fine if elected officials decide to remove them.  And if they want to put them in a museum of American history, I'm also ok what that too, in fact, I would prefer it.  History should never be erased, and should never be bastardized into a revision like done here.

Part of that is dribble.

But we agree on not erasing history. That's what museums are for.

[Heisenberg]

Because we shouldn't be honoring traitors who fought a war for the primary purpose of continuing to enslave other people.

It's not hard.

Shallow revisionist history take.

So why did the people of the North allowed well over 1,000 of these reminders of who killed their fathers, sons, and husbands?

[The Sultan]

Heisey you are the one revising history.  The memorials immediately after the War were largely dedicated to those who died in the War.  Those to confederate "heroes" like Robert E. Lee, were largely erected during the Jim Crow era, long after Reconstruction ended and the south was back on full terms.

[The Sultan]

Shallow revisionist history take.

What did I say that was innaccurate?