Valpo drops "Crusaders"

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I couldn't find data on this, but I would be shocked to learn that anywhere near a majority of ND students are of Irish descent, at least within the past couple of generations.

Everyone's a little bit Irish on st Patrick's day, right?

[Dr. Blackheart]

ND Sucks has a nice mascot ring to it.

[cheebs09]

ND Sucks has a nice mascot ring to it.

Would be representative of the student population.

[muwarrior69]

Same time they ask UNC Pembroke to drop their mascot. Never.

It's different when the institution serves the population that is being depicted by the mascot.

....but Fighting Irish just may incite violence.

[buckchuckler]

nm

[buckchuckler]

Would be representative of the student population.

LOL.

[The Sultan]

Would you say that a majority, or even a significant chunk of Valpo's students are Christian?  Because if they are, then, by your same logic being applied to ND, there shouldn't be an issue here.

Let me guess - you struggled with logic at Marquette.

Crusaders isn't some sort of badge of honor for Christians. The Crusades was an immoral misuse of theology that should not  be celebrated at all.

[Galway Eagle]

Would be representative of the student population.

Applause

I couldn't find data on this, but I would be shocked to learn that anywhere near a majority of ND students are of Irish descent, at least within the past couple of generations.

Probably depends what you'd consider Irish. If you're talking about people who can claim citizenship (grandparents from Ireland) I'd bet TAMU is way off base with his assumption. If you're talking about someone who identifies as Irish (ie your average 7th generation person from a cop/firefighter neighborhood on the south side of a city) that may grow a bit to a plurality. If you're talking anyone with an Irish ancestor then TAMU may be correct. Of course the question would be whether they'd identify as Irish to have an opinion, for example I don't think many of the people who see Obama say "he's an Irish lad" but he certainly would have as much right to call himself one as any white person that says "I'm 10% Irish!"

[buckchuckler]

Let me guess - you struggled with logic at Marquette.

Crusaders isn't some sort of badge of honor for Christians. The Crusades was an immoral misuse of theology that should not  be celebrated at all.

Nope, not at all actually, please tell me what part of this...



Should inspire pride?

And I obviously deleted my comment, because discussing history with those that don't know it is silly.  Your statement could apply to later crusades, but not really the first crusade at all.

[muwarrior69]

UNC Pembroke's mascot is the Braves. It is exempt from the NCAAs mandate on Native American imagery because UNC Pembroke is a traditional Native American serving institution. Notre Dame was a traditional Irish serving institution back when that meant something (it doesn't anymore). Today, a significant chunk (majority?) of their students are still of Irish descent thus the mascot isn't problematic in the same way that other mascots have been problematic.

Honestly, this conversation is completely separate from the Valpo conversation. The Valpo conversation is more similar to the confederate statues conversation.

So Braves for a traditional Native American institution is OK, but Crusaders for a traditional Christian institution is not? Perhaps those Braves slaughtered another Indigenous tribe or even, but I dare not say, European settlers. So why the exemption? I'm sure there is always some group that will find any symbol or mascot offensive.

[The Sultan]

Nope, not at all actually, please tell me what part of this...



Should inspire pride?

And I obviously deleted my comment, because discussing history with those that don't know it is silly.  Your statement could apply to later crusades, but not really the first crusade at all.

Yes it most certainly does apply to the first Crusade. It was shameful.

And I have not defended TAMU's point about Irish. Just that your logic doesn't make sense.

[Galway Eagle]

I think the difference between the Native American imagery is that there's still fallout from the USA killing them and pushing them off their land. While the Crusades were pretty terrible, id be hard pressed to believe there's issues stemming from those still keeping middle easterners down. At a certain point you need to look back and say "it was the Middle Ages and doesn't effect us now"

[The Sultan]

I think the difference between the Native American imagery is that there's still fallout from the USA killing them and pushing them off their land. While the Crusades were pretty terrible, id be hard pressed to believe there's issues stemming from those still keeping middle easterners down. At a certain point you need to look back and say "it was the Middle Ages and doesn't effect us now"

Crusaders should be offensive to Christians too.

[StillAWarrior]

UNC Pembroke's mascot is the Braves. It is exempt from the NCAAs mandate on Native American imagery because UNC Pembroke is a traditional Native American serving institution.

The opposite situation was in effect at the small college in the town where I grew up - Fort Lewis College. We were very near both the Southern Ute and Navajo reservations and FLC prided itself in offering significant tuition grants to Native Americans who attended. Their mascot was the "Raiders." By itself, perhaps not a big deal, but the imagery was a US Cavalry solider on horseback. I'll chalk it up to youth and ignorance (and a very different time) that I didn't realize how insensitive that was. They have been the Skyhawks since 1994.

[Galway Eagle]

Crusaders should be offensive to Christians too.

Anything from the Middle Ages I'm hard pressed to be offended by. I mean most the countries aren't the same, the governments are different for those that are. The moral and ethical standards were wayyy different. And were so minimally related to anyone from those days I'd be hard pressed to feel guilt or be offended by the actions of those days.

[muwarrior69]

I think the difference between the Native American imagery is that there's still fallout from the USA killing them and pushing them off their land. While the Crusades were pretty terrible, id be hard pressed to believe there's issues stemming from those still keeping middle easterners down. At a certain point you need to look back and say "it was the Middle Ages and doesn't effect us now"

...and no Native American tribe killed and pushed another tribe off their land?

[Galway Eagle]

...and no Native American tribe killed and pushed another tribe off their land?

To the level that we did? And then sequestered them to reservations. Don't let your nationalistic pride get in the way of the honest truth of American history.

[dgies9156]

Anything from the Middle Ages I'm hard pressed to be offended by. I mean most the countries aren't the same, the governments are different for those that are. The moral and ethical standards were wayyy different. And were so minimally related to anyone from those days I'd be hard pressed to feel guilt or be offended by the actions of those days.

Brother Galway,

It's about what you stand for and the putting the values you preach into practice.

In my former home state of Tennessee, there was a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest in the state capitol in downtown Nashville. Mr. Forrest had a reputation as a great civil war general and to many Caucasians of a southern lean, he was a hero defending the rights of states to govern themselves with limited federal interference. He also was a freedom fighter dedicated to stopping the union insurgency.

Our African-America brothers and sisters see General Forrest as the founder of the Klu Klux Klan.

You can guess what happened to General Forrest's statue. Some bigots were so inflamed that they constructed a massive aluminum statue of General Forrest on his horse on Interstate 65 as you enter Nashville from Williamson County. Idiots!

Same with the Crusaders. Christians see Crusaders in a western European context. They were acting on behalf of God (forgetting that Jesus couldn't care less about ground. He cared about people). Muslims see these folks (and are taught) as terrorists out to deny them their faith.

To give Valpo a little bit of credit, do we really want to fight over this nonsense? 

[Galway Eagle]

Brother Galway,

It's about what you stand for and the putting the values you preach into practice.

In my former home state of Tennessee, there was a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest in the state capitol in downtown Nashville. Mr. Forrest had a reputation as a great civil war general and to many Caucasians of a southern lean, he was a hero defending the rights of states to govern themselves with limited federal interference. He also was a freedom fighter dedicated to stopping the union insurgency.

Our African-America brothers and sisters see General Forrest as the founder of the Klu Klux Klan.

You can guess what happened to General Forrest's statue. Some bigots were so inflamed that they constructed a massive aluminum statue of General Forrest on his horse on Interstate 65 as you enter Nashville from Williamson County. Idiots!

Same with the Crusaders. Christians see Crusaders in a western European context. They were acting on behalf of God (forgetting that Jesus couldn't care less about ground. He cared about people). Muslims see these folks (and are taught) as terrorists out to deny them their faith.

To give Valpo a little bit of credit, do we really want to fight over this nonsense?

I honestly don't care about the change in the grand scheme of things and if someone's offended by something and can make a sound logical argument for why I'll back the side of removing the offense.

Certainly the civil war (and consequential KKK) are still relevant and impact living individuals. The Middle Ages on the other hand... I'd equate it to having a mascot called the Vikings and people from any non Scandinavia country being offended because the terror, rape, pillaging, etc the Vikings did. But I don't hear of a growing movement to change that name.

Again in the grand scheme of things if Arabic people are offended go ahead and change it, I just haven't heard an argument that has convinced me of how it impacts people's lives to this day.

[buckchuckler]

Yes it most certainly does apply to the first Crusade. It was shameful.

And I have not defended TAMU%u2019s point about Irish. Just that your logic doesn%u2019t make sense.

All I was doing was pointing out the flaw in his logic.  Sorry if I wasn't clear - I wasn't trying to defend the mascot.
Also I was trying to add historical context, which I obviously have not done eloquently or charitably.  So I don't have anything more to add.  I just sincerely wish you all a great day.

[GooooMarquette]

Probably depends what you'd consider Irish. If you're talking about people who can claim citizenship (grandparents from Ireland) I'd bet TAMU is way off base with his assumption. If you're talking about someone who identifies as Irish (ie your average 7th generation person from a cop/firefighter neighborhood on the south side of a city) that may grow a bit to a plurality. If you're talking anyone with an Irish ancestor then TAMU may be correct. Of course the question would be whether they'd identify as Irish to have an opinion, for example I don't think many of the people who see Obama say "he's an Irish lad" but he certainly would have as much right to call himself one as any white person that says "I'm 10% Irish!"

Yeah - that's why I specified within the past couple of generations. And like I said, I'd be shocked if real Irish people like that make up a majority at ND.

I did some genealogy, and I have no Irish for several generations. It's mostly English on my dad's side and German and Scottish on my mom's, so I don't consider myself Irish. But like most anyone, when I go back far enough, I can find a little Irish...and Dutch, and Russian, and damn near everything else remotely European. I even found a couple of Scottish kings about 12 or 13 generations back, but I don't make a claim to any throne.

So yeah, if you include faux Irish people like me, half of ND is "Irish." Just like half of most every other school in the US....

[Golden Avalanche]

...and no Native American tribe killed and pushed another tribe off their land?

You work so damn hard to end up going nowhere.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

....but Fighting Irish just may incite violence.

The problem isn't the violence.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So Braves for a traditional Native American institution is OK, but Crusaders for a traditional Christian institution is not? Perhaps those Braves slaughtered another Indigenous tribe or even, but I dare not say, European settlers. So why the exemption? I'm sure there is always some group that will find any symbol or mascot offensive.

Sigh.

Brave is a generic term for a Native American Warrior.

Crusader is specific terms for a group of Christian Warriors whose sole purpose was to take land from and kill non-Christians. And yes, the first Crusade was born out of an alliance between Byzantium and the Pope but the tactics used to recruit for the crusades was to bastardize the Christian faith and demonize people of other religions and subsequent crusades had nothing to do with an alliance with Byzantium.

It's not about violence. It's not about finding a profession that has never had a member do something bad (they don't exist). It's about not honoring a profession that was created out of hatred for and for the purpose of killing people of other religions.

The name Braves is more comparable to Knights, which no reasonable person has an issue with. Many braves and knights did terrible things but it was not the one thing they were known for. Crusaders would be more akin to a Native American serving institution naming themselves after a specific group of Native American warriors who was specifically trained to kill white settlers (I'm not sure if there was a named group like this).

The Crusades is not something Christians should take pride in. It was a low point in the history of our faith. That is indisputable.

[Billy Hoyle]

Valpo is now "The Beacons."  https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/2021/08/10/valparaiso-university-mascot-change-crusaders-now-beacons/5554060001/

I hope nobody complains that a Beacon/Lighthouse may have been used to guide ships carrying slaves into port and they have to drop it as a school in Oregon did with an evergreen tree:  https://pamplinmedia.com/pt/9-news/503434-403207-portland-school-fears-evergreens-mascot-tied-to-lynching-