collapse

* Recent Posts

Chicago bars for Fri game by Daniel
[Today at 12:59:15 PM]


2024 Coaching Carousel by The Sultan of Semantics
[Today at 12:57:37 PM]


2024 Transfer Portal by Uncle Rico
[Today at 12:56:44 PM]


2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by cheebs09
[Today at 12:45:22 PM]


Tyler Kolek's "legacy" by Newsdreams
[Today at 12:37:27 PM]


NC State by Sturgeon General Warrior
[Today at 12:34:46 PM]


Dallas bars tonite by Oldgym
[Today at 12:14:42 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!


Author Topic: Valpo drops "Crusaders"  (Read 15792 times)

Galway Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10458
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #150 on: August 26, 2021, 09:57:57 AM »

Galway is Irish American right?  I don't think anyone here is telling him he should be offended by the Leprechaun.

BTW, the "they're only offended because someone told them to be offended" is so very condescending.

I am multi-national 😎

But seriously, yes I was born here have probably lived there about 3.5 total years between my masters and 2 months or so each summer when I was young.

The reason I argue this point is because a generation of Irish immigrants' and Irish Americans', from the 1910s, opinion on a matter doesn't hold true today. At the time ND was a trend setter and they had the mindset of "let's take own the word and cartoon!"

ND doesn't speak for the entirety of the Irish diaspora across the USA, there's been three major emigrations since the decision was made and each of those has a different era of culture and customs they brought over. All of which are very different than that of the now 5th or more generation removed Irish Americans that have ND "in their blood" because they served Irish Americans way back when.
Maigh Eo for Sam

naginiF

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1452
  • 'and the riot be the rhyme of the unheard'
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #151 on: August 26, 2021, 09:59:58 AM »
I think of this as a microaggression but I suppose I could be wrong.  My point about compassion or inclusiveness has nothing to do with those that find it offensive, it's about those that don't.  The goal of removing the "Rock" or all all of these mascots is for those that don't find them offensive to find them offensive.  It's an admission of guilt.
That's not the goal. The goal is to not be offensive to those that find them offensive. As an Irish American I don't find the Fighting Irish offensive, nor do I find the phrases "getting your Irish up", "Irish flu" or "Irish goodbye" offensive, but I fully understand why some with a similar heritage would. Nobody is saying that I, or anyone, should be offended...they are saying understand why they would be offended.

Also, who's admitting what guilt?

The Sultan of Semantics

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 11517
  • "Private message me coward" - panda
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #152 on: August 26, 2021, 10:03:41 AM »
That's not the goal. The goal is to not be offensive to those that find them offensive. As an Irish American I don't find the Fighting Irish offensive, nor do I find the phrases "getting your Irish up", "Irish flu" or "Irish goodbye" offensive, but I fully understand why some with a similar heritage would. Nobody is saying that I, or anyone, should be offended...they are saying understand why they would be offended.

Also, who's admitting what guilt?


This is it exactly.  Furthermore, just because SOME people find something offensive, that doesn't mean nicknames or imagery should change.  But simply to acknowledge why some people might take offense without the condescending "it's just because some people told them to be offended" nonsense.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

MuggsyB

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12686
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #153 on: August 26, 2021, 10:12:32 AM »

This is it exactly.  Furthermore, just because SOME people find something offensive, that doesn't mean nicknames or imagery should change.  But simply to acknowledge why some people might take offense without the condescending "it's just because some people told them to be offended" nonsense.


Have you read any anti racist treatises or books?  What do you think the purpose was of removing Chamberlin Rock?  The entire UW administration was very clear why they did it.  The "nonsense" is people being offended by a boulder, an inanimate object, that was minding its own business for 100 yrs.

The Sultan of Semantics

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 11517
  • "Private message me coward" - panda
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #154 on: August 26, 2021, 10:19:50 AM »

Have you read any anti racist treatises or books?  What do you think the purpose was of removing Chamberlin Rock?  The entire UW administration was very clear why they did it.  The "nonsense" is people being offended by a boulder, an inanimate object, that was minding its own business for 100 yrs.


People weren't offended by the rock.  They were offended by what it represented. 

So they moved it to another part of campus, at private expense, so it can continue to be used for education purposes.  And that's fine.  Why does it bother you?
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

MuggsyB

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12686
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #155 on: August 26, 2021, 10:31:43 AM »

People weren't offended by the rock.  They were offended by what it represented. 

So they moved it to another part of campus, at private expense, so it can continue to be used for education purposes.  And that's fine.  Why does it bother you?

I'm offended that people think "that's what the rock represented" because of a racist idiot who wrote an article 90 yrs ago.

The Sultan of Semantics

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 11517
  • "Private message me coward" - panda
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #156 on: August 26, 2021, 10:34:55 AM »
I'm offended that people think "that's what the rock represented" because of a racist idiot who wrote an article 90 yrs ago.


Are you really? 
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Hards Alumni

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6583
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #157 on: August 26, 2021, 11:32:50 AM »
Mascots.  Are.  For.  Children.

Why do people defend blatantly offensive symbols? 

Billy Hoyle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Retire #34
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #158 on: August 26, 2021, 12:31:28 PM »
I'm offended that people think "that's what the rock represented" because of a racist idiot who wrote an article 90 yrs ago.

I don't think the journalist who wrote that article was racist or had malice when he wrote it, it was a commonly used term at the time. 90 years went by before people decided it was "offensive" and they couldn't walk by it without bursting into tears.

As Bill Maher said, we can't judge and condemn actions of the past by 2021 standards.
“You either smoke or you get smoked. And you got smoked.”

MuggsyB

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12686
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #159 on: August 26, 2021, 12:38:13 PM »
I think we have much bigger probs to deal with right now than mascots and rocks. 

Billy Hoyle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Retire #34
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #160 on: August 26, 2021, 12:41:44 PM »

Galway is Irish American right?  I don't think anyone here is telling him he should be offended by the Leprechaun.

BTW, the "they're only offended because someone told them to be offended" is so very condescending.

I'm Irish-American too. I've attended multiple universities in Ireland and Northern Ireland. I have close friends who are born and raised in Ireland, similar to Galway (the difference is I believe he earned a degree from NUIG). None have ever said anything to me about being offended, (I was offended by them rooting for ND and wearing the gear at games in Dublin). The only offense I take to the ND mascot is it's ND and I was raised to dislike that school. In no way is the mascot intended to mock, but rather honor. Kind of like the First Warrior was.

As for the other statement, it happens more than you'd think. For example, when my wife and I saw Anchorman 2 in the theatres she literally fell out of her seat laughing at the line "Champ was fired for saying on air that the "only Olympic sport Filipinos are good at is eating cats and dogs.” Numerous articles followed (omitting the part about the firing), and telling Filipinos how offended they should find it and that the line was "an anti-Filipino slur to make life miserable." By the way, my wife has a recipe in a Philippine cuisine cookbook for dog stew and many of her cousins and fellow Filipinos laughed because, yes, they'd been to family events where dog was served. So yes, there is a cottage industry of people and groups who tell others they should be offended by something and they are selling out their culture if they aren't.
“You either smoke or you get smoked. And you got smoked.”

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9875
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #161 on: August 26, 2021, 12:58:54 PM »
As Bill Maher said, we can't judge and condemn actions of the past by 2021 standards.

If Bill Maher said that, he's an idiot. (Actually, he's an idiot either way, but that statement would be idiotic).
By that dumb logic, we can't say slavery or child labor or torture of political opponents is wrong, since those all had been found acceptable in the past.

Billy Hoyle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Retire #34
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #162 on: August 26, 2021, 02:15:33 PM »
If Bill Maher said that, he's an idiot. (Actually, he's an idiot either way, but that statement would be idiotic).
By that dumb logic, we can't say slavery or child labor or torture of political opponents is wrong, since those all had been found acceptable in the past.

no, you can say it's wrong and move on, but you shouldn't condemn forever those who engaged in such practices that were legal and accepted as a part of mainstream society. Using a common term in 1980 we have since decided is offensive should not ruin someone's life. It's called evolution. Should Marquette as an institution be painted as racist for using Warriors all of those years?

Look at our changing attitudes and law on Marijuana. Should people have their records expunged who are in jail for possession of Pot?
“You either smoke or you get smoked. And you got smoked.”

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9875
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #163 on: August 26, 2021, 02:40:19 PM »
no, you can say it's wrong and move on, but you shouldn't condemn forever those who engaged in such practices that were legal and accepted as a part of mainstream society. Using a common term in 1980 we have since decided is offensive should not ruin someone's life. It's called evolution. Should Marquette as an institution be painted as racist for using Warriors all of those years?

You're shifting goalposts.
Your first post said "we can't judge and condemn actions of the past."
Now, you've changed that to "you shouldn't condemn forever those who engaged in such practices."
These are two very different concepts.

And, I think, when we have these discussions, we ought to leave room for nuance and not throw things like smoking marijuana and sports nicknames into the same category as slavery and torture.

Billy Hoyle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Retire #34
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #164 on: August 26, 2021, 04:25:37 PM »
You're shifting goalposts.
Your first post said "we can't judge and condemn actions of the past."
Now, you've changed that to "you shouldn't condemn forever those who engaged in such practices."
These are two very different concepts.

And, I think, when we have these discussions, we ought to leave room for nuance and not throw things like smoking marijuana and sports nicknames into the same category as slavery and torture.

actions of individuals. That's what Maher meant when he made that comment. He was referring to those tearing down statutes of people like Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson, and demanding their names be taken off of schools.
“You either smoke or you get smoked. And you got smoked.”

The Sultan of Semantics

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 11517
  • "Private message me coward" - panda
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #165 on: August 26, 2021, 04:29:06 PM »
Maybe we should stop erecting statues of people - literally putting them on a pedestal. 
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Hards Alumni

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6583
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #166 on: August 26, 2021, 04:42:00 PM »
actions of individuals. That's what Maher meant when he made that comment. He was referring to those tearing down statutes of people like Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson, and demanding their names be taken off of schools.

Bill Maher is a comedian.  And he isn't funny.  And he's a boomer, liberal elite.  Using him as a bellwether of what is good or bad is a hot-take if I've ever seen one.

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9875
Re: Valpo drops "Crusaders"
« Reply #167 on: August 26, 2021, 04:54:27 PM »
actions of individuals. That's what Maher meant when he made that comment. He was referring to those tearing down statutes of people like Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson, and demanding their names be taken off of schools.

Seems a touch reductio ad absurdum.
I agree that tearing down a Lincoln statue is ridiculous. And we should admit that's exceedingly rare and called for by a tiny minority.
The problem is that when people complain about the tearing down of Lincoln statues, they're usually pointing it out while arguing against the removal of any statue.
Like here. We started this with you saying we can't judge anyone from the past for any misdeeds because different standards. And somehow two posts later, you've equated that to tearing down Lincoln statues.
Again, how about some nuance, Billy? How about we recognize that tearing down a Robert E. Lee statue is not the same as - nor is it a first step to - tearing down a Lincoln statue?

 

feedback