Valpo drops "Crusaders"

[Dr. Blackheart]

I would not.  Such nicknames and imagery can offend more people than simply those attending that school.

Bingo. ND has gone to calling themselves "The Irish" recently and has diversified the real person leprechaun. But the stereotypical image of the red faced pug lingers.

I know this argument is used often  to (not sincerely) counter other mascot changes, but the image really is offensive under any serious parameter.  Just like with Marquette when Warriors became unacceptable because we couldn't walk back the imagery...the same here.

[Pakuni]

What about a HBCU college naming themselves the N word?

Going out on a limb here to suggest that's one hypothetical we never have to worry about becoming a reality.

[Galway Eagle]

Going out on a limb here to suggest that's one hypothetical we never have to worry about becoming a reality.

I think you can take his example with a grain of salt and see what his actual point is

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What about a HBCU college naming themselves the N word?

I would. It'll never happen but I would defend if it did. I would also encourage them to listen to other members of the Black community who were offended by it.

[Pakuni]

I think you can take his example with a grain of salt and see what his actual point is

Not really.
TAMU's example of a school with a large Native American population using a nickname like "redskins" actually has some basis in fact ... there are such schools.
law's hypothetical not only has no basis in fact, but there is literally no chance that would ever occur.
It's the equivalent of a poll asking whether MU fans would welcome back Wojo if it guaranteed 10 straight national titles. It's a useless hypothetical.

[Galway Eagle]

I would. It'll never happen but I would defend if it did. I would also encourage them to listen to other members of the Black community who were offended by it.

So you shouldn't be agreeing with and you should be saying they should listen to Irish communities that have come over since then. Pretty much every Irish american and Irish individual I know who dislikes the mascot is recent to be here. Seems like ND should open up a dialogue of whether they actually represent the Irish community like they once did or if they should rebrand as the "fighting Irish Americans circa 1920 and before"

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So you shouldn't be agreeing with and you should be saying they should listen to Irish communities that have come over since then. Pretty much every Irish american and Irish individual I know who dislikes the mascot is recent to be here. Seems like ND should open up a dialogue of whether they actually represent the Irish community like they once did or if they should rebrand as the "fighting Irish Americans circa 1920 and before"

Like I said, I'd encourage them to listen to others and reflect on whether or not they are having impact on their community that the intend. Personally, I don't have a problem with it. I also definitely don't think it's comparable to Florida State, the Cleveland Indians, or the Football Team formerly known as the Redskins

[real chili 83]

ND sucks

[Galway Eagle]

Like I said, I'd encourage them to listen to others and reflect on whether or not they are having impact on their community that the intend. Personally, I don't have a problem with it. I also definitely don't think it's comparable to Florida State, the Cleveland Indians, or the Football Team formerly known as the Redskins

I'd say depends on the context.

If you're saying it's not on par due to injustices well since Notre Dame is saying "fighting Irish" with a mascot based on a depiction by British to describe Irish then that'd include any injustices done to the larger Irish diaspora and those still back on the mainland from anybody of Anglo-Saxon heritage. Those injustices are certainly on par with the reasons native Americans can find injustices in those mascots at FSU, & Cleveland (Washington being a different story). 

However, if ND changed their name to "The Fighting Irish Americans" those injustices are limited to "no Irish need apply" and half pay in jobs. In which case that group of people still offended becomes significantly smaller and more aligned with those that actually support Notre Dame.


I'd liken it to if a school called themselves the Fighting Jews. Ok some people might have great pride in that, some people might not. But I'd say the mascot was then based on a Nazi depiction then I'd wager most everyone would be upset. Then let's say the school said "we're owning the name and taking it back!" What would be your interpretation? To me using that mascot based on such a stereotype by such a horrific regime means that it brings in every injustice done to them (except by say the Egyptians) but if they said we're the fighting Jewish Americans and used some American depiction of what Jews looked like as their mascot then feel free to own it as much as possible.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It's not about comparing which group had it worse (it never is).

It's about the fact that when Notre Dame donned the moniker Fighting Irish, they were an Irish Serving Institution at a time when those of Irish descent were discriminated against in higher education. It was a group of Irish people choosing an Irish mascot.

Florida State, Washington Redskins, and Cleveland Indians were a bunch of White dudes who thought it would be bad a$$ to have a Native American mascot (and that's the nice version).

[Galway Eagle]

It's not about comparing which group had it worse (it never is).

It's about the fact that when Notre Dame donned the moniker Fighting Irish, they were an Irish Serving Institution at a time when those of Irish descent were discriminated against in higher education. It was a group of Irish people choosing an Irish mascot.

Florida State, Washington Redskins, and Cleveland Indians were a bunch of White dudes who thought it would be bad a$$ to have a Native American mascot (and that's the nice version).

Sorry, I misunderstood the angle you were trying to come from.

The key word in that statement is "was".

We can both agree that cultural norms and what's acceptable has greatly changed since the 1910s or 1920s when Notre Dame adopted the Fighting Irish moniker. What isn't being acknowledged is those people's great grandchildren, who ND caters to, are no longer Irish. They're Americans and shouldn't have a say in what is or isn't offensive to Irish individuals. That's why I keep saying "Fighting Irish Americans".

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

It's about the fact that when Notre Dame donned the moniker Fighting Irish, they were an Irish Serving Institution at a time when those of Irish descent were discriminated against in higher education. It was a group of Irish people choosing an Irish mascot.

This seems like a gigantic over reach about the founding of Notre Dame.  Not even ND claims this and they exaggerate about everything.

https://www.nd.edu/stories/whats-in-a-name/

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This seems like a gigantic over reach about the founding of Notre Dame.  Not even ND claims this and they exaggerate about everything.

https://www.nd.edu/stories/whats-in-a-name/

Actually that article says exactly what I said.  Irish were discriminated against at the time. Their student population was largely of Irish descent. The students were the ones who chose the nickname.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Nm

[WarriorFan]

I would encourage all of those who have chosen to be offended by the Leprechaun or by "fighting irish" to discontinue their donations to Notre Dame.

I'm sure that $6/year is going to make an impact. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Actually that article says exactly what I said.  Irish were discriminated against at the time. Their student population was largely of Irish descent. The students were the ones who chose the nickname.

What about the non-Irish kids that were students at the time?  Wouldn't they be offended (assuming that they were woke back then)?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What about the non-Irish kids that were students at the time?  Wouldn't they be offended (assuming that they were woke back then)?

I think more of them were mad because they were biased against Irish people

[Hards Alumni]

I'm going to continue to not really care what mascot a school uses a long as no one is upset by it's history... since I'm a grown up.

[Galway Eagle]

I'm going to continue to not really care what mascot a school uses a long as no one is upset by it's history... since I'm a grown up.

9/10 times I don't. This one gets me because I was a very light skinned 5'7" boxer who's mom was from Ireland. At a certain point the comparisons get on your nerves and I'm not the only one as my entire hurling team (90% first generation or from Ireland) make fun of ND to no end. I'll argue this one needing to be changed as long as other ethnic names need changing.

If ND did more to help spread Irish culture (they don't even have a GAA club, you know who does? Purdue) and changed the mascot I'd be more apt to just ignore it.

[MuggsyB]

Is the Leprechaun mascot more or less offensive than the Chamberlain Rock?  We're obsessed with micro aggressions to a fault.  Call it cancel culture or whatever you want but this isn't making people more compassionate or inclusive, it's quite the opposite frankly. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Is the Leprechaun mascot more or less offensive than the Chamberlain Rock?  We're obsessed with micro aggressions to a fault.  Call it cancel culture or whatever you want but this isn't making people more compassionate or inclusive, it's quite the opposite frankly. 

A potentially offensive mascot isn't a "microaggression."  And if someone is so upset about a f*cking mascot, and can't be compassionate or inclusive because of it, that's their problem.  It's not the job of those who find it offensive to set their feelings aside because of a stupid mascot.

That being said, is the Leprechaun offensive?  Is is to Galway.  I'm sure it is to others as well.  But is their a significant enough of the population offended enough to require a change?  Doubtful.  But eventually the Washington Football Team got to that point.  Perhaps Notre Dame will as well.

[Billy Hoyle]

Is the Leprechaun mascot more or less offensive than the Chamberlain Rock?  We're obsessed with micro aggressions to a fault.  Call it cancel culture or whatever you want but this isn't making people more compassionate or inclusive, it's quite the opposite frankly.

Every time I’ve been to Ireland, going back to 1997, I’ve seen the Irish selling and wearing ND gear. The only US college gear available in when I was in Galway in 1997 was ND. I hated seeing it but the Irish loved it. ND had played in Dublin in 1996 and the people were still buzzing.

To me this is coming off as another example of one group people telling another group they should be offended by something. At least with MU it was actual Native Americans who went to the administration.

[Galway Eagle]

Every time I’ve been to Ireland, going back to 1997, I’ve seen the Irish selling and wearing ND gear. The only US college gear available in when I was in Galway in 1997 was ND. I hated seeing it but the Irish loved it. ND had played in Dublin in 1996 and the people were still buzzing.

To me this is coming off as another example of one group people telling another group they should be offended by something. At least with MU it was actual Native Americans who went to the administration.

We had very different experiences in regards to that. Maybe due to the times? Prior to Celtic tiger I think america was fantasized about over there whereas now it's a "we are who we are" mentality.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

To me this is coming off as another example of one group people telling another group they should be offended by something.

Galway is Irish American right?  I don't think anyone here is telling him he should be offended by the Leprechaun.

BTW, the "they're only offended because someone told them to be offended" is so very condescending. 

[MuggsyB]

A potentially offensive mascot isn't a "microaggression."  And if someone is so upset about a f*cking mascot, and can't be compassionate or inclusive because of it, that's their problem.  It's not the job of those who find it offensive to set their feelings aside because of a stupid mascot.

That being said, is the Leprechaun offensive?  Is is to Galway.  I'm sure it is to others as well.  But is their a significant enough of the population offended enough to require a change?  Doubtful.  But eventually the Washington Football Team got to that point.  Perhaps Notre Dame will as well.

I think of this as a microaggression but I suppose I could be wrong.  My point about compassion or inclusiveness has nothing to do with those that find it offensive, it's about those that don't.  The goal of removing the "Rock" or all all of these mascots is for those that don't find them offensive to find them offensive.  It's an admission of guilt.