Kenosha

[vogue65]

What are you talking about.  There was nothing peaceful about what happened in Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, NYC.  Protesting is fine, but to suggest it was all peaceful is ridiculous.

Portland can't get its "peaceful" protesters out of the streets after 80+ days.  We were told when the Feds left, all would be well - even though it wasn't before their arrival.  And of course, not shockingly after they left, the protesting didn't stop.

Why are we talking about protests?  We should be talking about attempted murder.

Read your history, Portland has been demonstrating, protesting, rioting, for a few hundred years.  They are the black belt of protestors.   They were at it long before the pretty boys started buying AK-47's.  They will probably be protesting long after we're gone.   

Fundamentally it is against all injustice and more specifically, Native American injustice. 

Go Portland, true warriors.

The real reason the feds pulled out was probably they could not intimidate or outlast the demonstrators. 

[vogue65]

With everything that has happened the last few years, it is inexcusable that always-on body cams aren't mandatory nationwide. You would think that 'good' cops would want them, because if they really are doing the right thing, the footage could exonerate them.

And as several here have said, it really is chilling to imagine what we never even heard about in the days before cellphones.

#BLM

More than chilling, criminal and immoral.

[Pakuni]

With everything that has happened the last few years, it is inexcusable that always-on body cams aren't mandatory nationwide. You would think that 'good' cops would want them, because if they really are doing the right thing, the footage could exonerate them.

And as several here have said, it really is chilling to imagine what we never even heard about in the days before cellphones.

#BLM

The problem, if you want to call it such, with body cameras isn't the cost/operation of the cameras themselves, but of the data storage and and management.
I'm not suggesting it's an acceptable excuse, but I'm aware of departments that started using body cameras or made plans to purchase them, but later walked away once they learned how much it would cost to store the data and the need to hire someone to manage it.
It gives departments an easy out, and I'm not sure what the answer is other than to tell agencies tough luck, this is the price of doing business. Perhaps they should spend less on tactical gear and more on cameras.

[Pakuni]

Why are we talking about protests?

Why? Because it's a distraction.

[GooooMarquette]

The problem, if you want to call it such, with body cameras isn't the cost/operation of the cameras themselves, but of the data storage and and management.
I'm not suggesting it's an acceptable excuse, but I'm aware of departments that started using body cameras or made plans to purchase them, but later walked away once they learned how much it would cost to store the data and the need to hire someone to manage it.
It gives departments an easy out, and I'm not sure what the answer is other than to tell agencies tough luck, this is the price of doing business. Perhaps they should spend less on tactical gear and more on cameras.

Legitimate issue...but it begs the question: Why not just discard the footage within a short period (a week maybe), unless there was an injury or firearm discharge during the officer's shift?

Our organization has hundreds of security cameras, and that's what we do. Footage is stored for a defined period, then discarded if no incidents were reported.

[GooooMarquette]

Good for the Bucks, and all other teams and organizations speaking out against this incident:

https://twitter.com/Bucks/status/1297943855443185669?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1297943855443185669%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fsports.yahoo.com%2F

[Pakuni]

Legitimate issue...but it begs the question: Why not just discard the footage within a short period (a week maybe), unless there was an injury or firearm discharge during the officer's shift?

Our organization has hundreds of security cameras, and that's what we do. Footage is stored for a defined period, then discarded if no incidents were reported.

I don't know what the law is in Wisconsin, but in Illinois the law required that recordings must be saved for at least 90 days unless "flagged" for an incident (i.e, a shooting, complaint against the officer, etc.)

[Silkk the Shaka]

Until the day comes that unarmed black men aren't shot in the back by police, I support BLM.

And to you who say 'Marxism', I say to you that racism is a far worse scourge.

I would assert that a more socialized/democratized economy is a necessary condition for systemic racism to ever end in this country/on this planet. So to those who feel racism is a scourge (as I do), please consider Marxist critiques of capitalism in good faith, as opposed to running scared of the term when the right tries to use it as a cudgel. It is not a "lesser" scourge, it is a solution to the problem. That is one of the reasons they try to demonize the term. They do not want the actual problem to go away. Falling for that canard only perpetuates the problem.

[Billy Hoyle]

Why are we talking about protests?  We should be talking about attempted murder.

Read your history, Portland has been demonstrating, protesting, rioting, for a few hundred years.  They are the black belt of protestors.   They were at it long before the pretty boys started buying AK-47's.  They will probably be protesting long after we're gone.   

Fundamentally it is against all injustice and more specifically, Native American injustice. 

Go Portland, true warriors.

The real reason the feds pulled out was probably they could not intimidate or outlast the demonstrators.

All of it stopped being about BLM months ago. As the NAACP leader in Portland said, the protests became "white spectacle."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/23/portlands-protests-were-supposed-be-about-black-lives-now-theyre-white-spectacle/

What you now have now is anarchist groups like PNW YLF and Rose City Antifa (yes, it exists) who are going around the city, setting fire to various police stations and even black-owned businesses, (https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/06/26/black-leaders-decry-vandalism-around-portlands-martin-luther-king-jr-boulevard/ ). Signs posted throughout the city say "abolish the police" and are doxxing members of the police force, posting home addresses of officers. One was fired from his job as a high school football coach for something that happened in 2003 and in which he was cleared. And recently "abolish prisons" signs went up (they look like concert posters) and there was an "Abolish the Police, Abolish Prisons, Crush Capitalism" march last Monday. 

it has been amusing to see these groups scammed though. The founders of "Riot Ribs" ran off with $300K and the local "antifa" leader got paid off to defend them and went on Twitter to blame African-Americans. Seriously. The beloved mom's group also scammed people and screwed over African-American moms. https://mashable.com/article/wall-of-moms-breakdown-portland/

The actual BLM protesters will meet in areas of the city for "discussions" but not much else anymore. 

What happened Saturday was two extremist groups of white street gangs on each side of the spectrum coming together with the objective of creating violence against the other. It happens every time.  https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2018/06/03/dueling-radicals-maul-each-other-in-downtown-portland-as-a-political-ritual-is-bloodily-renewed/ (note WW is like the Shepard Express, very liberal).

[Coleman]

With everything that has happened the last few years, it is inexcusable that always-on body cams aren't mandatory nationwide. You would think that 'good' cops would want them, because if they really are doing the right thing, the footage could exonerate them.

And as several here have said, it really is chilling to imagine what we never even heard about in the days before cellphones.

#BLM

I agree. The one thing I will say is it is no small expense. I used to work for a company that made these. In addition to the actual hardware, which is not cheap, they are usually part of a complex radio system, and older systems require serious infrastructure upgrades to incorporate things like rugged body cams. If the PD does not have outlays from its municipality, its is cost-prohibitive.

I agree they should be universal. But municipalities need to provide funding for them.

[Coleman]

Legitimate issue...but it begs the question: Why not just discard the footage within a short period (a week maybe), unless there was an injury or firearm discharge during the officer's shift?

Our organization has hundreds of security cameras, and that's what we do. Footage is stored for a defined period, then discarded if no incidents were reported.

Because the footage is a legal record and needs to be retained for a specific period of time, just like all police evidence.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Storage costs aren’t zero, but this isn’t the early To mid 2000s.  Cloud storage is pretty cheap. 

[Coleman]

Storage costs aren’t zero, but this isn’t the early To mid 2000s.  Cloud storage is pretty cheap.

Yeah storage is part of the cost but not a big part of it. The bigger cost is the infrastructure. Most of the body cams are part of radio systems: https://www.motorolasolutions.com/en_xl/products/police-cameras/si500.html#tabproductinfo

You have to upgrade entire radio systems.

[dgies9156]

OK, all I can say is before we jump to conclusions, let the investigation play out. There's too much we don't know, yet.

I'm hopeful the Department of Justice investigates and the matter becomes a state or federal one. They're better equipped to deal with these things.

Bottom line is I agree with the notion that Black Lives Matter. We're all God's children, so of course, Black Lives Matter!

[Silkk the Shaka]

All of it stopped being about BLM months ago. As the NAACP leader in Portland said, the protests became "white spectacle."

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/09/873592665/unmasking-the-outside-agitator

What does it mean to be an "outside agitator"? What are public officials really saying when they use that terminology, or other phrases like it?

The whole trope of outside agitator has a long history in American history, and it's been used by everybody from plantation owners in the South during antebellum slavery to big corporate industry magnates.

We're thinking about the Rockefellers and the Vanderbilts and Andrew Carnegie. It's also been used by the FBI director, J. Edgar Hoover, when talking about everybody from radicals of the early 1920s and 30s, to civil rights activists such as Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X, and certainly black power activists, including the Black Panthers and Stokely Carmichael.

So in our contemporary context—especially since the Black Lives Matter movement erupted around 2013 and 2014—it's been utilized against activists who are trying to transform the criminal justice system in the United States. Basically, what it's meant is that whatever conflict, political rebellion or demonstration is happening, it's not organically home grown, it's not authentic. That none of these troubles would happen if not for outside agitators.


https://www.vox.com/2020/6/3/21275720/george-floyd-protests-outside-agitators-ferguson-civil-rights-movement

Outside agitator is a racial term. The term means that protests are somehow less legitimate and really run by people who are, not black, usually white people, who are not local — people who are from different parts of the country or different parts of the world.

You may have seen people talk about Russian influence recently, fomenting this discussion. There’s another group they mention, which is seen as a predominately white organization. All these groups are, whether it’s Russia, whether it’s antifa, the idea is that anything that’s formidable really couldn’t be pulled off by local black activists or protesters. That’s actually the bottom line.

[Pakuni]

Storage costs aren’t zero, but this isn’t the early To mid 2000s.  Cloud storage is pretty cheap.

In addition to that, though, are the man hours needed to process the inevitable open records requests. That means having some on staff who can edit what's stored so that just what's being requested is turned over and blur the faces of people recorded during the event but not directly involved in the matter (a requirement in Illinois).
These may not seem too burdensome for departments with huge budgets like Chicago and Illinois State Police, but it's a big chunk of money for a lot of small towns.
As Coleman said, they should be universal, but the cost issues are legitimate and consequential.

[GooooMarquette]

Good points Coleman and Pakuni.

Even if costs can be managed, the funding has to come from somewhere...but it seems we all agree the money should be provided.

[naginiF]

[buckchuckler]

nm

[MU82]

All of it stopped being about BLM months ago. As the NAACP leader in Portland said, the protests became "white spectacle."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/23/portlands-protests-were-supposed-be-about-black-lives-now-theyre-white-spectacle/

What you now have now is anarchist groups like PNW YLF and Rose City Antifa (yes, it exists) who are going around the city, setting fire to various police stations and even black-owned businesses, (https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/06/26/black-leaders-decry-vandalism-around-portlands-martin-luther-king-jr-boulevard/ ). Signs posted throughout the city say "abolish the police" and are doxxing members of the police force, posting home addresses of officers. One was fired from his job as a high school football coach for something that happened in 2003 and in which he was cleared. And recently "abolish prisons" signs went up (they look like concert posters) and there was an "Abolish the Police, Abolish Prisons, Crush Capitalism" march last Monday. 

it has been amusing to see these groups scammed though. The founders of "Riot Ribs" ran off with $300K and the local "antifa" leader got paid off to defend them and went on Twitter to blame African-Americans. Seriously. The beloved mom's group also scammed people and screwed over African-American moms. https://mashable.com/article/wall-of-moms-breakdown-portland/

The actual BLM protesters will meet in areas of the city for "discussions" but not much else anymore. 

What happened Saturday was two extremist groups of white street gangs on each side of the spectrum coming together with the objective of creating violence against the other. It happens every time.  https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2018/06/03/dueling-radicals-maul-each-other-in-downtown-portland-as-a-political-ritual-is-bloodily-renewed/ (note WW is like the Shepard Express, very liberal).

Interesting articles that largely support the thesis that the vast, vast, vast majority of actual protesters are peaceful.

Unfortunately, there are many opportunists who see a chance to degrade, loot, incite and, in Trump's case, "dominate." Be they locals or those from far away, they have agendas and turn these situations into sh!tshows.

But what are the real protesters with the real movement to do? Be intimidated by the sh!tshow and stop protesting?

As always, nothing is easy, nothing is exactly how it seems. Lots of nuance and shades of gray. Of course, throughout history, nothing worth fighting for was easy. Did those who pulled off the original Boston Tea Party have it easy? If somebody tried that today, they'd be labeled and derided, and probably physically assaulted by government troops.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/09/873592665/unmasking-the-outside-agitator

Very interesting stuff about the "outside agitator" trope, EFR. In the case of Portland, some of the worst outside agitators were the members of the secret militia the president sent to wreak havoc.

Obviously, there sometimes are outside agitators, but for years it has been a convenient, racist term to scare white folks.

[GooooMarquette]

Interesting articles that largely support the thesis that the vast, vast, vast majority of actual protesters are peaceful.

Unfortunately, there are many opportunists who see a chance to degrade, loot, incite and, in Trump's case, "dominate." Be they locals or those from far away, they have agendas and turn these situations into sh!tshows.

But what are the real protesters with the real movement to do? Be intimidated by the sh!tshow and stop protesting?

Exactly. The legitimately peaceful protesters have every right to be heard. It’s unfortunate that violent opportunists try to take advantage of these situations, but that should never be seen as a justification to silence free speech.

[vogue65]

The problem, if you want to call it such, with body cameras isn't the cost/operation of the cameras themselves, but of the data storage and and management.
I'm not suggesting it's an acceptable excuse, but I'm aware of departments that started using body cameras or made plans to purchase them, but later walked away once they learned how much it would cost to store the data and the need to hire someone to manage it.
It gives departments an easy out, and I'm not sure what the answer is other than to tell agencies tough luck, this is the price of doing business. Perhaps they should spend less on tactical gear and more on cameras.

Body cameras are not the solution.  They may be the problem.  Thanks Ron.
Technology can't solve everything.  An ambush is an ambush in Vietnam or anywhere else.

With some people it is always about the money, I get it. 

[mu_hilltopper]

The massive amount of conclusion jumping is disappointing.

It's like we've never had one of these before. 

[vogue65]

Exactly. The legitimately peaceful protesters have every right to be heard. It’s unfortunate that violent opportunists try to take advantage of these situations, but that should never be seen as a justification to silence free speech.

There is a false equivalency.  ( don't you love it when I sound like a lawyer?) (Plausible deniability, sovereign immunity, reasonable doubt, ambiguities, etc.)  Blah, blah, blah.

All protests are legitimate, is that a new concept?
Oh, I'm on the side of this one, but not the other one.
Who is to draw the line?
Thank God for violent opportunists.
Only DAT can use violence?

An unarmed guy get shot in the back by a thug, and we debate legitimate and illegitimate.
With that kind of thinking this is not going to end well.

[vogue65]

The massive amount of conclusion jumping is disappointing.

It's like we've never had one of these before.

Thats the point we have and then the lawyers get involved.
When I was a young man we had ambulance chasers.
Now we have unacceptable protest chasers.
I never liked facing the possibility that we would have a civil war again.  God help us.
And last time all the kings lawyers did nothing.