MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: wadesworld on August 23, 2020, 10:51:37 PM
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Black Lives Matter.
At least they do to me. And should to everyone. This is why teams will wear a patch. I will support Theo and the team.
#BLM.
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Agreed.
Proud of MU and the BE.
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Looks very bad.
@davenewworld_2: WARNING GRAPHIC ⚠️ Police in Kenosha, Wisconsin shoot an unarmed man in the back https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1297698630875385856/video/1
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Haven't had time to read much about it and will refrain from commenting further until then.
Really hope he pulls through.
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Looks very bad.
@davenewworld_2: WARNING GRAPHIC ⚠️ Police in Kenosha, Wisconsin shoot an unarmed man in the back https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1297698630875385856/video/1
Probably IBTL, but here is my biggest thought with this whole video...even if he had a button to unleash a nuclear warhead towards downtown Milwaukee in his center console so him opening the door and entering the car is clear and imminent life threatening danger...how do THREE officers allow him slowly and methodically round the car and get to the door and open it? No tasers, no attempt at physical force to stop him, just train your weapon on him and wait for “justification” to open fire? He could have been armed or attempting to arm himself and it’s STILL just comically inept and lackadaisically policing IMO.
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Probably IBTL, but here is my biggest thought with this whole video...even if he had a button to unleash a nuclear warhead towards downtown Milwaukee in his center console so him opening the door and entering the car is clear and imminent life threatening danger...how do THREE officers allow him slowly and methodically round the car and get to the door and open it? No tasers, no attempt at physical force to stop him, just train your weapon on him and wait for “justification” to open fire? He could have been armed or attempting to arm himself and it’s STILL just comically inept and lackadaisically policing IMO.
The irony here is that according to witnesses, the man who was shot here wasn't directly involved in the incident that brought police there in the first place. Apparently he was trying to break up a fight.
Obviously there are a lot of unanswered questions here, and the cop's actions may end being justified. But regardless, it's troubling.
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Holy crap. For those that don't like seeing black men shot in the back, don't watch.
Don't tell certain folks here, they've assured us that all live matter, and black people are given business opportunities that white people can't get, and that Marxists are trying to take over the country, and that protesters are trying to destroy cities, and that most violent crimes are committed by black people, and that calling something "white fragility" is racist, and that Wendy's franchises' lives matter too.
I'm not necessarily "woke", but wake up folks.
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Holy crap. For those that don't like seeing black men shot in the back, don't watch.
Don't tell certain folks here, they've assured us that all live matter, and black people are given business opportunities that white people can't get, and that Marxists are trying to take over the country, and that protesters are trying to destroy cities, and that most violent crimes are committed by black people, and that calling something "white fragility" is racist, and that Wendy's franchises' lives matter too.
I'm not necessarily "woke", but wake up folks.
Well written
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Until the day comes that unarmed black men aren't shot in the back by police, I support BLM.
And to you who say 'Marxism', I say to you that racism is a far worse scourge.
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Holy crap. For those that don't like seeing black men shot in the back, don't watch.
Don't tell certain folks here, they've assured us that all live matter, and black people are given business opportunities that white people can't get, and that Marxists are trying to take over the country, and that protesters are trying to destroy cities, and that most violent crimes are committed by black people, and that calling something "white fragility" is racist, and that Wendy's franchises' lives matter too.
I'm not necessarily "woke", but wake up folks.
Proud to have you as our moderator, rocky.
Until the day comes that unarmed black men aren't shot in the back by police, I support BLM.
And to you who say 'Marxism', I say to you that racism is a far worse scourge.
That's just silly. Ners says that the day Obama got elected, racism in the U.S. magically disappeared and it's us white males who became the oppressed.
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That's just silly. Ners says that the day Obama got elected, racism in the U.S. magically disappeared and it's us white males who became the oppressed.
Don’t pick fights. It’s too sad and important for that petty stuff
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What can anyone say at this point?
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What can anyone say at this point?
Oh I'm sure someone will find something.
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Don’t pick fights. It’s too sad and important for that petty stuff
I understand what you're saying, but systemic racism isn't petty. Indeed, it almost certainly is what led to this person being shot.
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That's one of the worst caught on video police shootings I've ever seen. Every part of this is terrible. I'm sure in their report it says something about resisting arrest as that seems to be a constant in every police report post shooting.
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Proud to have you as our moderator, rocky.
That's just silly. Ners says that the day Obama got elected, racism in the U.S. magically disappeared and it's us white males who became the oppressed.
Since your triggered soul can't help yourself...I'll indulge you: Please go quote where I've posted white males are oppressed.
Unlike you, I simply don't associate the actions of individual police officers with the entirety of the profession, nor the entirety of their race.
As I've posted before, my solution to this continued problem of officer involved shootings is to simply make the entire police department Black. Simple solution.
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As I've posted before, my solution to this continued problem of officer involved shootings is to simply make the entire police department Black. Simple solution.
I don't (want to) know the prior dialogue that lead to this suggestion or how serious its meant to be, but if the demographics of police departments reflected the communities they serve, a vast majority of these problems would disappear.
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Since your triggered soul can't help yourself...I'll indulge you: Please go quote where I've posted white males are oppressed.
Unlike you, I simply don't associate the actions of individual police officers with the entirety of the profession, nor the entirety of their race.
As I've posted before, my solution to this continued problem of officer involved shootings is to simply make the entire police department Black. Simple solution.
lol, serious man is serious.
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Funny how people see different things in the same video.
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Funny how people see different things in the same video.
Anybody who sees anything but how its being portrayed here should probably have a long look in the mirror. Because if anybody thinks that this was justified, unless he had a gun on the front seat of his car that he was reaching for, it most certainly wasn't.
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Funny how people see different things in the same video.
What do you see?
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Funny how people see different things in the same video.
I see an unarmed guy getting capped 7 times in the back from point blank distance. What do you see?
And if they were worried about the presence of a weapon, they easily could have cuffed him prior to that. Or used a taser instead of likely lethal force.
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Anybody who sees anything but how its being portrayed here should probably have a long look in the mirror. Because if anybody thinks that this was justified, unless he had a gun on the front seat of his car that he was reaching for, it most certainly wasn't.
::) I'm not saying it was justified. Yet, i did see a man walking away from the cops when guns were on him. We need more answers.
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::)
Lack of substantive response noted. And I'm not suprised.
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Lack of substantive response noted. And I'm not suprised.
I was adding to my comment. Response noted. ;)
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::) I'm not saying it was justified. Yet, i did see a man walking away from the cops when guns were on him. We need more answers.
I agree we need more answers.
But walking away from the cops isn't a justification for shooting someone.
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::) I'm not saying it was justified. Yet, i did see a man walking away from the cops when guns were on him. We need more answers.
We do. Like why did the cops need to have guns drawn on an unarmed individual?
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::) I'm not saying it was justified. Yet, i did see a man walking away from the cops when guns were on him.
Ok...so a man acted irresponsibly or defiantly at worst. To which the officers were completely fine with calmly doing nothing but point their guns at him. 3-4 officers with their full compliment of support and gear and they did NOTHING. Doesn’t matter what was in his front seat, them allowing him to get there, moving as slowly and non aggressively as he was, shows a complete incompetence and complacency at very best
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I agree we need more answers.
But walking away from the cops isn't a justification for shooting someone.
It's might not be. We don't know what was said. We also need to listen to the cops demands as well. We can't put ourselves in a bad spot. Not good for anyone.
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It's might not be. We don't know what was said. We also need to listen to the cops demands as well. We can't put ourselves in a bad spot. Not good for anyone.
Actually it doesn't matter what was said or what the cops demands were.
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Actually it doesn't matter what was said or what the cops demands were.
What? I hope your joking. We can't do just what we want.
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What? I hope your joking. We can't do just what we want.
Of course not. But the appropriate response to not obeying a cop's demand isn't getting shot in the back multiple times.
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Anybody who sees anything but how its being portrayed here should probably have a long look in the mirror. Because if anybody thinks that this was justified, unless he had a gun on the front seat of his car that he was reaching for, it most certainly wasn't.
I agree with this. It seems hard to fathom they would shoot this guy if he hadn't threatened to pull a gun out of his car. Of course the whole thing could have been alleviated if he did just comply with officers. That being said it of course doesn't justify getting shot.
Hopefully they had bodycams on and audio will surface to eliminate any questions about justification.
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Ok...so a man acted irresponsibly or defiantly at worst. To which the officers were completely fine with calmly doing nothing but point their guns at him. 3-4 officers with their full compliment of support and gear and they did NOTHING. Doesn’t matter what was in his front seat, them allowing him to get there, moving as slowly and non aggressively as he was, shows a complete incompetence and complacency at very best
You can make this point, yet Police are in some ways in a Catch 22. Say they escalate and take this guy down, as we saw in Atlanta case, its possible they can be overpowered. Or that take him down too aggressively and are accused of police brutality.
All Black police forces in cities needed.
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Quick question, if he was trying to escape by ignoring the cops orders why could they not have shot out the tires? I know I haven't fired a gun, but at point blank range, for a stopped vehicle, between the two of them is imagine they'd manage at least one if not two tires to go out. Barring gun, which also could have been prevented if the second officer had cut him off around back of the car rather than slowly walking behind him with a gun drawn, I just don't see how 6 shots to the back were necessary.
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Info emerging. His 3 sons we in the car - watched it all. Reportedly only stopped there to break up a fight between two unrelated women.
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Since your triggered soul can't help yourself...I'll indulge you: Please go quote where I've posted white males are oppressed.
Unlike you, I simply don't associate the actions of individual police officers with the entirety of the profession, nor the entirety of their race.
As I've posted before, my solution to this continued problem of officer involved shootings is to simply make the entire police department Black. Simple solution.
You have become a caricature of yourself.
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Heresy only:
Police were said to hear he was returning to his vehicle to get his gun.
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Heresy only:
Police were said to hear he was returning to his vehicle to get his gun.
Link?
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Heresy only:
Police were said to hear he was returning to his vehicle to get his gun.
Assuming you mean hearsay and not heresy. ;)
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Heresy only:
Police were said to hear he was returning to his vehicle to get his gun.
Ok, so why did they make ZERO effort to stop him? Not “I’m grabbing this gun from my waist and”...but “I’m going to get a gun”...thus we should slowly walk after him and make no maneuvers, between the 3 of us with guns drawn, to get between him and a deadly weapon.
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It's might not be. We don't know what was said. We also need to listen to the cops demands as well. We can't put ourselves in a bad spot. Not good for anyone.
Blame the victim all you want, but refusal to do as a police officer demands is not punishable by extrajudicial killing via gunshots to the back.
And there is no law enforcement standard that justifies shooting an unarmed person in the back. If there's evidence the person had a gun, this is a different discussion, but I suspect that if that were the case here, the Kenosha PD would be screaming it from the rooftops by now.
Here's the Kenosha PD's policy on use of deadly force. As you can see, in no way does it justify what we see on that video:
VII. USE OF DEADLY FORCE
A. Deadly force is force that is intended to or likely to cause death. Whenever safety
permits, police officers should identify themselves and state their intent to shoot prior to
using a firearm. Officers are to discharge their weapons to stop an assailant from
completing a potentially deadly act as described. Officers should shoot to stop the threat
and to minimize danger to innocent bystanders.
An officer may use deadly force:
1. As a last resort in the defense of oneself, when there is reasonable cause to believe
that the officer is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.
2. As a last resort in the defense of another person, whom the officer has reasonable
cause to believe is being unlawfully attacked and is in imminent danger of death or
great bodily harm.
3. As a last resort to prevent escape of a suspect, where the officer has probable cause
to believe that the person to be arrested has used deadly force in the commission of a
felony, and the officer reasonably believes there is no other way to make the arrest or
retain custody of the person once arrested, or the person to be arrested can
reasonably be thought to be intent on endangering human life or upon inflicting
serious bodily harm. In any event, the officer should not use deadly force unless
he/ she believes it is necessary and then only as a last resort.
https://www.kenosha.org/images/police/policies/1.3_Use_of_Force.pdf
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https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/local/watch-now-state-doj-will-probe-officer-involved-shooting-man-in-serious-condition/article_f1adbd13-3a15-5cdd-bd4e-95113ca36de4.html
- Seems he had stopped to break up a fight (plenty of folks reporting that)
- No body cams (of course)
- He had already been tasered
- Neighbors saying he had no gun
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Heresy only:
Police were said to hear he was returning to his vehicle to get his gun.
But they made no effort to tackle him or block him from the door while they knew he was unarmed?
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It's might not be. We don't know what was said. We also need to listen to the cops demands as well. We can't put ourselves in a bad spot. Not good for anyone.
It is not okay for a police officer to shoot "Everyone" that does not follow demands. This is a subject that requires more discussion.
There are way too many people out there that think it is okay for a police officer to shoot anyone/everyone that doesn't follow demands. There are of course, life and death situation exceptions, but way too often too many people think this okay. It isn't. The police does not have unlimited authority. Was this police officer protecting and serving when he shot an unarmed man, calmly, walking away from him/them?
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Gonna be a rough night in the streets of this country tonight.
This conduct by police isn’t going to stop until we make it stop. What we need to figure out quickly is how to do this nonviolently. Cuz we are on the edge right now and it can go either way.
We have a leader who has shown he is ruthless with peaceful protesters. We also know he won’t step up to try deal with these systemic issues.
We are on the edge of the cliff - at this moment, today. The next step will be taken. Will it be to step away or to go over the edge.
This will not be a Kenosha story. It is going to affect the entire country (and world) in a serious, serious way.
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People are looking for the justification for shooting, I'm still waiting to hear a good justification that police officers were trying to detain him in the first place. He was there breaking up a fight. Maybe the police wanted to question him about the fight, but if he said "I'm gonna get gone" (see what I did there...) he should have been allowed to leave.
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Looks very bad.
@davenewworld_2: WARNING GRAPHIC ⚠️ Police in Kenosha, Wisconsin shoot an unarmed man in the back https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1297698630875385856/video/1
If it looks bad it is bad.
Armed thug misses the arms tackel, so you shoot him in the back, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ,6, 7 times?
Looks like the reality is comming closer to home.
What was going before smart phones?
BLM or the whole country goes down.
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Probably IBTL, but here is my biggest thought with this whole video...even if he had a button to unleash a nuclear warhead towards downtown Milwaukee in his center console so him opening the door and entering the car is clear and imminent life threatening danger...how do THREE officers allow him slowly and methodically round the car and get to the door and open it? No tasers, no attempt at physical force to stop him, just train your weapon on him and wait for “justification” to open fire? He could have been armed or attempting to arm himself and it’s STILL just comically inept and lackadaisically policing IMO.
Not comical, criminal. Please change the word, this is not a laughing matter.
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The irony here is that according to witnesses, the man who was shot here wasn't directly involved in the incident that brought police there in the first place. Apparently he was trying to break up a fight.
Obviously there are a lot of unanswered questions here, and the cop's actions may end being justified. But regardless, it's troubling.
Wrong, only cowards shoot an unarmed man in the back.
Yes, after the union get's thru with it.
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The irony here is that according to witnesses, the man who was shot here wasn't directly involved in the incident that brought police there in the first place. Apparently he was trying to break up a fight.
Obviously there are a lot of unanswered questions here, and the cop's actions may end being justified. But regardless, it's troubling.
I'm with you, don't believe your lyin eyes.
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::) I'm not saying it was justified. Yet, i did see a man walking away from the cops when guns were on him. We need more answers.
Walking away from a cop is not, has never been, and never will be, a justifiable reason for deadly use of force.
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Until the day comes that unarmed black men aren't shot in the back by police, I support BLM.
And to you who say 'Marxism', I say to you that racism is a far worse scourge.
Marx"ism" died a long time ago.
Get with the program.
Dictators, oligarchs, war lords, and social democracies are here.
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That's one of the worst caught on video police shootings I've ever seen. Every part of this is terrible. I'm sure in their report it says something about resisting arrest as that seems to be a constant in every police report post shooting.
I agree, even if true, why is resisting a capital crime?
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Gonna be a rough night in the streets of this country tonight.
This conduct by police isn’t going to stop until we make it stop. What we need to figure out quickly is how to do this nonviolently. Cuz we are on the edge right now and it can go either way.
We have a leader who has shown he is ruthless with peaceful protesters. We also know he won’t step up to try deal with these systemic issues.
We are on the edge of the cliff - at this moment, today. The next step will be taken. Will it be to step away or to go over the edge.
This will not be a Kenosha story. It is going to affect the entire country (and world) in a serious, serious way.
Yep.
Folks will decry any violence that takes place because of this. And obviously, none of us want violence. But the violence that took place after the Floyd situation actually WORKED. It sent the message: "This time is different. We're not just gonna protest for a couple days and then forget about it." It made lots of people -- importantly, lots of white people -- examine what is going on in this country.
So no, I am not advocating violence. I do understand it, though. When you are pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed, you sometimes feel you must push back hard.
Here in Charlotte, where the RNC started today, things are on edge. The emperor, he of the "we must dominate" and "when the looting starts the shooting starts" rhetoric and the overt call for cops to use violence, is in town. There already has been unrest and arrests.
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Since your triggered soul can't help yourself...I'll indulge you: Please go quote where I've posted white males are oppressed.
Unlike you, I simply don't associate the actions of individual police officers with the entirety of the profession, nor the entirety of their race.
As I've posted before, my solution to this continued problem of officer involved shootings is to simply make the entire police department Black. Simple solution.
Not a solution, there are bad black cops also.
The solution in NYC was to hire Irish cops, who proceeded to persecute the Irish.
It's an old trick of the colonizers used all over the world, India for example.
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I don't (want to) know the prior dialogue that lead to this suggestion or how serious its meant to be, but if the demographics of police departments reflected the communities they serve, a vast majority of these problems would disappear.
Wrong, the fish rots from the top down.
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I see an unarmed guy getting capped 7 times in the back from point blank distance. What do you see?
And if they were worried about the presence of a weapon, they easily could have cuffed him prior to that. Or used a taser instead of likely lethal force.
Even a good old pistol whip.
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::) I'm not saying it was justified. Yet, i did see a man walking away from the cops when guns were on him. We need more answers.
If the so-called legal profession, and the socalled criminal justice ststem, can't fix this obvious problem, God Help America.
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We do. Like why did the cops need to have guns drawn on an unarmed individual?
That's easy, because they can. Second, they are terrified cowards. Bullies tend to act in gangs.
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Ok...so a man acted irresponsibly or defiantly at worst. To which the officers were completely fine with calmly doing nothing but point their guns at him. 3-4 officers with their full compliment of support and gear and they did NOTHING. Doesn’t matter what was in his front seat, them allowing him to get there, moving as slowly and non aggressively as he was, shows a complete incompetence and complacency at very best
That's why my local cops carry lay down weapons in their attache cases.
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If it looks bad it is bad.
What was going before smart phones?
That’s a scary thought. To think these actions were anything but commonplace is to have your heads in the sand.
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I really want to know how this played out prior to the shooting. He has an arrest warrant out on him based on a CCAP search. Were they going to bring him in? Maybe that's why he went to the car, to get a phone to call someone to take his kids?
Of course, there's no bodycam footage. So who knows.
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Gonna be a rough night in the streets of this country tonight.
This conduct by police isn’t going to stop until we make it stop. What we need to figure out quickly is how to do this nonviolently. Cuz we are on the edge right now and it can go either way.
Ft
We have a leader who has shown he is ruthless with peaceful protesters. We also know he won’t step up to try deal with these systemic issues.
We are on the edge of the cliff - at this moment, today. The next step will be taken. Will it be to step away or to go over the edge.
This will not be a Kenosha story. It is going to affect the entire country (and world) in a serious, serious way.
Kenosha and Wisconsin are considered the backwater of the rest of the civilized world. The problem is that Wisconsinites love it.
This shooting could have happened in dozens of Wisconsin towns.
We spend too much time worrying about our image in the world than justice.
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Yep.
Folks will decry any violence that takes place because of this. And obviously, none of us want violence. But the violence that took place after the Floyd situation actually WORKED. It sent the message: "This time is different. We're not just gonna protest for a couple days and then forget about it." It made lots of people -- importantly, lots of white people -- examine what is going on in this country.
So no, I am not advocating violence. I do understand it, though. When you are pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed, you sometimes feel you must push back hard.
Here in Charlotte, where the RNC started today, things are on edge. The emperor, he of the "we must dominate" and "when the looting starts the shooting starts" rhetoric and the overt call for cops to use violence, is in town. There already has been unrest and arrests.
Good luck, and well said.
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I really want to know how this played out prior to the shooting. He has an arrest warrant out on him based on a CCAP search. Were they going to bring him in? Maybe that's why he went to the car, to get a phone to call someone to take his kids?
Of course, there's no bodycam footage. So who knows.
Who cares, he is dead or dying?
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Gonna be a rough night in the streets of this country tonight.
This conduct by police isn’t going to stop until we make it stop. What we need to figure out quickly is how to do this nonviolently. Cuz we are on the edge right now and it can go either way.
We have a leader who has shown he is ruthless with peaceful protesters. We also know he won’t step up to try deal with these systemic issues.
We are on the edge of the cliff - at this moment, today. The next step will be taken. Will it be to step away or to go over the edge.
This will not be a Kenosha story. It is going to affect the entire country (and world) in a serious, serious way.
What are you talking about. There was nothing peaceful about what happened in Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, NYC. Protesting is fine, but to suggest it was all peaceful is ridiculous.
Portland can't get its "peaceful" protesters out of the streets after 80+ days. We were told when the Feds left, all would be well - even though it wasn't before their arrival. And of course, not shockingly after they left, the protesting didn't stop.
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Heresy only:
Police were said to hear he was returning to his vehicle to get his gun.
Even if that is true, there were plenty of things they should have done before resorting to shooting him in the back.
C'mon, man.
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I was adding to my comment. Response noted. ;)
SOP, call for backup, draw your Glock, shoot the mother, check his rap sheet, and perhaps laydown a weapon, then call your union lawyer.
If you think of it, there is a lot to think about, call an ambulance, but don't hurry too much.
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What are you talking about. There was nothing peaceful about what happened in Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, NYC. Protesting is fine, but to suggest it was all peaceful is ridiculous.
Portland can't get its "peaceful" protesters out of the streets after 80+ days. We were told when the Feds left, all would be well - even though it wasn't before their arrival. And of course, not shockingly after they left, the protesting didn't stop.
What was happening in Washington DC, where protesters were gassed for a photo op with a bible and a church used as props, was undeniably peaceful.
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What are you talking about. There was nothing peaceful about what happened in Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, NYC. Protesting is fine, but to suggest it was all peaceful is ridiculous.
Portland can't get its "peaceful" protesters out of the streets after 80+ days. We were told when the Feds left, all would be well - even though it wasn't before their arrival. And of course, not shockingly after they left, the protesting didn't stop.
What are YOU talking about?
Less than 2 minutes after your emperor finished a Rose Garden speech in which he said he was "an ally of all peaceful protesters," he had his militia attack the peaceful protesters in Lafayette Square. He needed the park cleared so he could walk through it in an "Eff you, I'm the effen Emperor" show of strength, a walk he concluded by standing in front of the church and holding a bible upside-down. Even Pat Robertson called it cruel and blasphemous.
Just the most grotesque example, and one that could go a long way toward costing him this election. Only the most mindless, easily conned sheeple try to defend it, and it's been a rallying cry for all those who want a return to decency in this country. His opponents -- including Republican groups -- have used it extensively in attack ads, which is smart.
In Portland, your emperor's militia infamously tear-gassed a "wall of moms" who were peacefully protesting, attacked and injured a veteran who was just trying to talk to them, and even tear-gassed the mayor, who was part of a totally non-violent protest. Among the many other peaceful protesters he had attacked.
Some other protests, in Portland and elsewhere, indeed became violent, but just about all of those turned even more violent after he dispatched his militia because the protests then became about him. He had successfully (albeit briefly) deflected attention away from his horrific handling of the coronavirus.
Oh, and there have been several examples of white supremacists -- dressed nearly head to toe in black -- trying to make it look like Black folks were looting and committing violent acts.
The vast majority of protests in this country have been peaceful. It's been especially heartening to see all the white, suburban folks taking part, realizing how racism has ratcheted up significantly under your emperor's watch.
They've been peaceful despite your emperor's attempts to gin things up in his pathetic attempt to frame himself as the "law and order president."
Which is pretty amazing given how many criminals he has surrounded himself with. We need a scorecard to identify all the felons in this corrupt lunatic's inner circle.
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Is there a justification for no body cameras? Do not all officers have them? As others have mentioned, without the cell phone video, no one would know about this.
Feels like penalties need to be harsh if you have a body camera but don’t use it.
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Is there a justification for no body cameras? Do not all officers have them? As others have mentioned, without the cell phone video, no one would know about this.
Feels like penalties need to be harsh if you have a body camera but don’t use it.
Depends on the department. Sadly, not all have them. Should be required to carry a gun, and required to be turned on to use a gun.
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Depends on the department. Sadly, not all have them. Should be required to carry a gun, and required to be turned on to use a gun.
Thanks for the info. Just saw a reddit post saying Kenosha PD gets them next year.
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Depends on the department. Sadly, not all have them. Should be required to carry a gun, and required to be turned on to use a gun.
With everything that has happened the last few years, it is inexcusable that always-on body cams aren't mandatory nationwide. You would think that 'good' cops would want them, because if they really are doing the right thing, the footage could exonerate them.
And as several here have said, it really is chilling to imagine what we never even heard about in the days before cellphones.
#BLM
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What are you talking about. There was nothing peaceful about what happened in Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, NYC. Protesting is fine, but to suggest it was all peaceful is ridiculous.
Portland can't get its "peaceful" protesters out of the streets after 80+ days. We were told when the Feds left, all would be well - even though it wasn't before their arrival. And of course, not shockingly after they left, the protesting didn't stop.
Why are we talking about protests? We should be talking about attempted murder.
Read your history, Portland has been demonstrating, protesting, rioting, for a few hundred years. They are the black belt of protestors. They were at it long before the pretty boys started buying AK-47's. They will probably be protesting long after we're gone.
Fundamentally it is against all injustice and more specifically, Native American injustice.
Go Portland, true warriors.
The real reason the feds pulled out was probably they could not intimidate or outlast the demonstrators.
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With everything that has happened the last few years, it is inexcusable that always-on body cams aren't mandatory nationwide. You would think that 'good' cops would want them, because if they really are doing the right thing, the footage could exonerate them.
And as several here have said, it really is chilling to imagine what we never even heard about in the days before cellphones.
#BLM
More than chilling, criminal and immoral.
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With everything that has happened the last few years, it is inexcusable that always-on body cams aren't mandatory nationwide. You would think that 'good' cops would want them, because if they really are doing the right thing, the footage could exonerate them.
And as several here have said, it really is chilling to imagine what we never even heard about in the days before cellphones.
#BLM
The problem, if you want to call it such, with body cameras isn't the cost/operation of the cameras themselves, but of the data storage and and management.
I'm not suggesting it's an acceptable excuse, but I'm aware of departments that started using body cameras or made plans to purchase them, but later walked away once they learned how much it would cost to store the data and the need to hire someone to manage it.
It gives departments an easy out, and I'm not sure what the answer is other than to tell agencies tough luck, this is the price of doing business. Perhaps they should spend less on tactical gear and more on cameras.
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Why are we talking about protests?
Why? Because it's a distraction.
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The problem, if you want to call it such, with body cameras isn't the cost/operation of the cameras themselves, but of the data storage and and management.
I'm not suggesting it's an acceptable excuse, but I'm aware of departments that started using body cameras or made plans to purchase them, but later walked away once they learned how much it would cost to store the data and the need to hire someone to manage it.
It gives departments an easy out, and I'm not sure what the answer is other than to tell agencies tough luck, this is the price of doing business. Perhaps they should spend less on tactical gear and more on cameras.
Legitimate issue...but it begs the question: Why not just discard the footage within a short period (a week maybe), unless there was an injury or firearm discharge during the officer's shift?
Our organization has hundreds of security cameras, and that's what we do. Footage is stored for a defined period, then discarded if no incidents were reported.
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Good for the Bucks, and all other teams and organizations speaking out against this incident:
https://twitter.com/Bucks/status/1297943855443185669?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1297943855443185669%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fsports.yahoo.com%2F
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Legitimate issue...but it begs the question: Why not just discard the footage within a short period (a week maybe), unless there was an injury or firearm discharge during the officer's shift?
Our organization has hundreds of security cameras, and that's what we do. Footage is stored for a defined period, then discarded if no incidents were reported.
I don't know what the law is in Wisconsin, but in Illinois the law required that recordings must be saved for at least 90 days unless "flagged" for an incident (i.e, a shooting, complaint against the officer, etc.)
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Until the day comes that unarmed black men aren't shot in the back by police, I support BLM.
And to you who say 'Marxism', I say to you that racism is a far worse scourge.
I would assert that a more socialized/democratized economy is a necessary condition for systemic racism to ever end in this country/on this planet. So to those who feel racism is a scourge (as I do), please consider Marxist critiques of capitalism in good faith, as opposed to running scared of the term when the right tries to use it as a cudgel. It is not a "lesser" scourge, it is a solution to the problem. That is one of the reasons they try to demonize the term. They do not want the actual problem to go away. Falling for that canard only perpetuates the problem.
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Why are we talking about protests? We should be talking about attempted murder.
Read your history, Portland has been demonstrating, protesting, rioting, for a few hundred years. They are the black belt of protestors. They were at it long before the pretty boys started buying AK-47's. They will probably be protesting long after we're gone.
Fundamentally it is against all injustice and more specifically, Native American injustice.
Go Portland, true warriors.
The real reason the feds pulled out was probably they could not intimidate or outlast the demonstrators.
All of it stopped being about BLM months ago. As the NAACP leader in Portland said, the protests became "white spectacle."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/23/portlands-protests-were-supposed-be-about-black-lives-now-theyre-white-spectacle/
What you now have now is anarchist groups like PNW YLF and Rose City Antifa (yes, it exists) who are going around the city, setting fire to various police stations and even black-owned businesses, (https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/06/26/black-leaders-decry-vandalism-around-portlands-martin-luther-king-jr-boulevard/ ). Signs posted throughout the city say "abolish the police" and are doxxing members of the police force, posting home addresses of officers. One was fired from his job as a high school football coach for something that happened in 2003 and in which he was cleared. And recently "abolish prisons" signs went up (they look like concert posters) and there was an "Abolish the Police, Abolish Prisons, Crush Capitalism" march last Monday.
it has been amusing to see these groups scammed though. The founders of "Riot Ribs" ran off with $300K and the local "antifa" leader got paid off to defend them and went on Twitter to blame African-Americans. Seriously. The beloved mom's group also scammed people and screwed over African-American moms. https://mashable.com/article/wall-of-moms-breakdown-portland/
The actual BLM protesters will meet in areas of the city for "discussions" but not much else anymore.
What happened Saturday was two extremist groups of white street gangs on each side of the spectrum coming together with the objective of creating violence against the other. It happens every time. https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2018/06/03/dueling-radicals-maul-each-other-in-downtown-portland-as-a-political-ritual-is-bloodily-renewed/ (note WW is like the Shepard Express, very liberal).
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With everything that has happened the last few years, it is inexcusable that always-on body cams aren't mandatory nationwide. You would think that 'good' cops would want them, because if they really are doing the right thing, the footage could exonerate them.
And as several here have said, it really is chilling to imagine what we never even heard about in the days before cellphones.
#BLM
I agree. The one thing I will say is it is no small expense. I used to work for a company that made these. In addition to the actual hardware, which is not cheap, they are usually part of a complex radio system, and older systems require serious infrastructure upgrades to incorporate things like rugged body cams. If the PD does not have outlays from its municipality, its is cost-prohibitive.
I agree they should be universal. But municipalities need to provide funding for them.
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Legitimate issue...but it begs the question: Why not just discard the footage within a short period (a week maybe), unless there was an injury or firearm discharge during the officer's shift?
Our organization has hundreds of security cameras, and that's what we do. Footage is stored for a defined period, then discarded if no incidents were reported.
Because the footage is a legal record and needs to be retained for a specific period of time, just like all police evidence.
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Storage costs aren’t zero, but this isn’t the early To mid 2000s. Cloud storage is pretty cheap.
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Storage costs aren’t zero, but this isn’t the early To mid 2000s. Cloud storage is pretty cheap.
Yeah storage is part of the cost but not a big part of it. The bigger cost is the infrastructure. Most of the body cams are part of radio systems: https://www.motorolasolutions.com/en_xl/products/police-cameras/si500.html#tabproductinfo
You have to upgrade entire radio systems.
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OK, all I can say is before we jump to conclusions, let the investigation play out. There's too much we don't know, yet.
I'm hopeful the Department of Justice investigates and the matter becomes a state or federal one. They're better equipped to deal with these things.
Bottom line is I agree with the notion that Black Lives Matter. We're all God's children, so of course, Black Lives Matter!
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All of it stopped being about BLM months ago. As the NAACP leader in Portland said, the protests became "white spectacle."
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/09/873592665/unmasking-the-outside-agitator
What does it mean to be an "outside agitator"? What are public officials really saying when they use that terminology, or other phrases like it?
The whole trope of outside agitator has a long history in American history, and it's been used by everybody from plantation owners in the South during antebellum slavery to big corporate industry magnates.
We're thinking about the Rockefellers and the Vanderbilts and Andrew Carnegie. It's also been used by the FBI director, J. Edgar Hoover, when talking about everybody from radicals of the early 1920s and 30s, to civil rights activists such as Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X, and certainly black power activists, including the Black Panthers and Stokely Carmichael.
So in our contemporary context—especially since the Black Lives Matter movement erupted around 2013 and 2014—it's been utilized against activists who are trying to transform the criminal justice system in the United States. Basically, what it's meant is that whatever conflict, political rebellion or demonstration is happening, it's not organically home grown, it's not authentic. That none of these troubles would happen if not for outside agitators.
https://www.vox.com/2020/6/3/21275720/george-floyd-protests-outside-agitators-ferguson-civil-rights-movement
Outside agitator is a racial term. The term means that protests are somehow less legitimate and really run by people who are, not black, usually white people, who are not local — people who are from different parts of the country or different parts of the world.
You may have seen people talk about Russian influence recently, fomenting this discussion. There’s another group they mention, which is seen as a predominately white organization. All these groups are, whether it’s Russia, whether it’s antifa, the idea is that anything that’s formidable really couldn’t be pulled off by local black activists or protesters. That’s actually the bottom line.
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Storage costs aren’t zero, but this isn’t the early To mid 2000s. Cloud storage is pretty cheap.
In addition to that, though, are the man hours needed to process the inevitable open records requests. That means having some on staff who can edit what's stored so that just what's being requested is turned over and blur the faces of people recorded during the event but not directly involved in the matter (a requirement in Illinois).
These may not seem too burdensome for departments with huge budgets like Chicago and Illinois State Police, but it's a big chunk of money for a lot of small towns.
As Coleman said, they should be universal, but the cost issues are legitimate and consequential.
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Good points Coleman and Pakuni.
Even if costs can be managed, the funding has to come from somewhere...but it seems we all agree the money should be provided.
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(https://i.imgur.com/Zki6LEk.gif)
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nm
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All of it stopped being about BLM months ago. As the NAACP leader in Portland said, the protests became "white spectacle."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/23/portlands-protests-were-supposed-be-about-black-lives-now-theyre-white-spectacle/
What you now have now is anarchist groups like PNW YLF and Rose City Antifa (yes, it exists) who are going around the city, setting fire to various police stations and even black-owned businesses, (https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/06/26/black-leaders-decry-vandalism-around-portlands-martin-luther-king-jr-boulevard/ ). Signs posted throughout the city say "abolish the police" and are doxxing members of the police force, posting home addresses of officers. One was fired from his job as a high school football coach for something that happened in 2003 and in which he was cleared. And recently "abolish prisons" signs went up (they look like concert posters) and there was an "Abolish the Police, Abolish Prisons, Crush Capitalism" march last Monday.
it has been amusing to see these groups scammed though. The founders of "Riot Ribs" ran off with $300K and the local "antifa" leader got paid off to defend them and went on Twitter to blame African-Americans. Seriously. The beloved mom's group also scammed people and screwed over African-American moms. https://mashable.com/article/wall-of-moms-breakdown-portland/
The actual BLM protesters will meet in areas of the city for "discussions" but not much else anymore.
What happened Saturday was two extremist groups of white street gangs on each side of the spectrum coming together with the objective of creating violence against the other. It happens every time. https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2018/06/03/dueling-radicals-maul-each-other-in-downtown-portland-as-a-political-ritual-is-bloodily-renewed/ (note WW is like the Shepard Express, very liberal).
Interesting articles that largely support the thesis that the vast, vast, vast majority of actual protesters are peaceful.
Unfortunately, there are many opportunists who see a chance to degrade, loot, incite and, in Trump's case, "dominate." Be they locals or those from far away, they have agendas and turn these situations into sh!tshows.
But what are the real protesters with the real movement to do? Be intimidated by the sh!tshow and stop protesting?
As always, nothing is easy, nothing is exactly how it seems. Lots of nuance and shades of gray. Of course, throughout history, nothing worth fighting for was easy. Did those who pulled off the original Boston Tea Party have it easy? If somebody tried that today, they'd be labeled and derided, and probably physically assaulted by government troops.
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/09/873592665/unmasking-the-outside-agitator
Very interesting stuff about the "outside agitator" trope, EFR. In the case of Portland, some of the worst outside agitators were the members of the secret militia the president sent to wreak havoc.
Obviously, there sometimes are outside agitators, but for years it has been a convenient, racist term to scare white folks.
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Interesting articles that largely support the thesis that the vast, vast, vast majority of actual protesters are peaceful.
Unfortunately, there are many opportunists who see a chance to degrade, loot, incite and, in Trump's case, "dominate." Be they locals or those from far away, they have agendas and turn these situations into sh!tshows.
But what are the real protesters with the real movement to do? Be intimidated by the sh!tshow and stop protesting?
Exactly. The legitimately peaceful protesters have every right to be heard. It’s unfortunate that violent opportunists try to take advantage of these situations, but that should never be seen as a justification to silence free speech.
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The problem, if you want to call it such, with body cameras isn't the cost/operation of the cameras themselves, but of the data storage and and management.
I'm not suggesting it's an acceptable excuse, but I'm aware of departments that started using body cameras or made plans to purchase them, but later walked away once they learned how much it would cost to store the data and the need to hire someone to manage it.
It gives departments an easy out, and I'm not sure what the answer is other than to tell agencies tough luck, this is the price of doing business. Perhaps they should spend less on tactical gear and more on cameras.
Body cameras are not the solution. They may be the problem. Thanks Ron.
Technology can't solve everything. An ambush is an ambush in Vietnam or anywhere else.
With some people it is always about the money, I get it.
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The massive amount of conclusion jumping is disappointing.
It's like we've never had one of these before.
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Exactly. The legitimately peaceful protesters have every right to be heard. It’s unfortunate that violent opportunists try to take advantage of these situations, but that should never be seen as a justification to silence free speech.
There is a false equivalency. ( don't you love it when I sound like a lawyer?) (Plausible deniability, sovereign immunity, reasonable doubt, ambiguities, etc.) Blah, blah, blah.
All protests are legitimate, is that a new concept?
Oh, I'm on the side of this one, but not the other one.
Who is to draw the line?
Thank God for violent opportunists.
Only DAT can use violence?
An unarmed guy get shot in the back by a thug, and we debate legitimate and illegitimate.
With that kind of thinking this is not going to end well.
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The massive amount of conclusion jumping is disappointing.
It's like we've never had one of these before.
Thats the point we have and then the lawyers get involved.
When I was a young man we had ambulance chasers.
Now we have unacceptable protest chasers.
I never liked facing the possibility that we would have a civil war again. God help us.
And last time all the kings lawyers did nothing.
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What are YOU talking about?
Less than 2 minutes after your emperor finished a Rose Garden speech in which he said he was "an ally of all peaceful protesters," he had his militia attack the peaceful protesters in Lafayette Square. He needed the park cleared so he could walk through it in an "Eff you, I'm the effen Emperor" show of strength, a walk he concluded by standing in front of the church and holding a bible upside-down. Even Pat Robertson called it cruel and blasphemous.
Just the most grotesque example, and one that could go a long way toward costing him this election. Only the most mindless, easily conned sheeple try to defend it, and it's been a rallying cry for all those who want a return to decency in this country. His opponents -- including Republican groups -- have used it extensively in attack ads, which is smart.
In Portland, your emperor's militia infamously tear-gassed a "wall of moms" who were peacefully protesting, attacked and injured a veteran who was just trying to talk to them, and even tear-gassed the mayor, who was part of a totally non-violent protest. Among the many other peaceful protesters he had attacked.
Some other protests, in Portland and elsewhere, indeed became violent, but just about all of those turned even more violent after he dispatched his militia because the protests then became about him. He had successfully (albeit briefly) deflected attention away from his horrific handling of the coronavirus.
Oh, and there have been several examples of white supremacists -- dressed nearly head to toe in black -- trying to make it look like Black folks were looting and committing violent acts.
The vast majority of protests in this country have been peaceful. It's been especially heartening to see all the white, suburban folks taking part, realizing how racism has ratcheted up significantly under your emperor's watch.
They've been peaceful despite your emperor's attempts to gin things up in his pathetic attempt to frame himself as the "law and order president."
Which is pretty amazing given how many criminals he has surrounded himself with. We need a scorecard to identify all the felons in this corrupt lunatic's inner circle.
#triggered
Guess we have a different definition of peaceful. Seeing buildings burned and stores destroyed in Minneapolis (before Trump did his infamous walk), sure didn't seem very peaceful. That aside all of your above examples are silly - property damage was inflicted by some dipsh$t protestors - and as a result peaceful protesters got caught in some crossfire. Cost of doing business, you can say.
BTW Were race relations crumbling under Obama? Ferguson. Baltimore. Were all of those Obama's fault or are those episodes of individual cops using poor judgement?
It is amusing to read how an ignorant person like you associates any and all trouble to Trump. I'm genuinely concerned for your well-being should Trump gets re-elected in November. Might want to get in to see a doctor for some preventative measures prior to the election. Sure doesn't seem your troubled and triggered liberal heart will be able to survive.
PM your mailing address, and I'll send you some Kleenex in advance of the election. You don't need to return the favor, because even if senile Joe and crazy Kamala win, I won't be crying, nor out in the streets shutting down freeways #resisting, because I am a grown man.
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I know this, after what happened in Kenosha last night, the decision by Marquette and the Big East to wear BLM patches resonates even more. It’s too bad those patches will trigger some people into rants instead of taking the time to understand the fear so many minorities live with on a daily basis.
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I’d be afraid to be black in America right now after watching that video....
Who’s to say that won’t happen to someone you know?
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#triggered
Guess we have a different definition of peaceful. Seeing buildings burned and stores destroyed in Minneapolis (before Trump did his infamous walk), sure didn't seem very peaceful. That aside all of your above examples are silly - property damage was inflicted by some dipsh$t protestors - and as a result peaceful protesters got caught in some crossfire. Cost of doing business, you can say.
BTW Were race relations crumbling under Obama? Ferguson. Baltimore. Were all of those Obama's fault or are those episodes of individual cops using poor judgement?
It is amusing to read how an ignorant person like you associates any and all trouble to Trump. I'm genuinely concerned for your well-being should Trump gets re-elected in November. Might want to get in to see a doctor for some preventative measures prior to the election. Sure doesn't seem your troubled and triggered liberal heart will be able to survive.
PM your mailing address, and I'll send you some Kleenex in advance of the election. You don't need to return the favor, because even if senile Joe and crazy Kamala win, I won't be crying, nor out in the streets shutting down freeways #resisting, because I am a grown man.
Your posting history does not suggest you are a grown man, but a frustrated, pathetic, lonely racist who feels the world he knew slipping away from him. I fully understand why you fell for the whole maga con.
I actually feel sorry for you, with all the non-Caucasian folks you loathe about to put people like you on the scrap heap of history.
But for now, you are lucky to have a racist emperor to worship, and it’s certainly possible he’ll get 4 more years. Enjoy bending the knee while you can, though. Whether it’s 2020, 2024 or 2028, the times they are a’changin’.
Black Lives Matter. We Are Marquette!
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#triggered
Guess we have a different definition of peaceful. Seeing buildings burned and stores destroyed in Minneapolis (before Trump did his infamous walk), sure didn't seem very peaceful. That aside all of your above examples are silly - property damage was inflicted by some dipsh$t protestors - and as a result peaceful protesters got caught in some crossfire. Cost of doing business, you can say.
BTW Were race relations crumbling under Obama? Ferguson. Baltimore. Were all of those Obama's fault or are those episodes of individual cops using poor judgement?
It is amusing to read how an ignorant person like you associates any and all trouble to Trump. I'm genuinely concerned for your well-being should Trump gets re-elected in November. Might want to get in to see a doctor for some preventative measures prior to the election. Sure doesn't seem your troubled and triggered liberal heart will be able to survive.
PM your mailing address, and I'll send you some Kleenex in advance of the election. You don't need to return the favor, because even if senile Joe and crazy Kamala win, I won't be crying, nor out in the streets shutting down freeways #resisting, because I am a grown man.
Your posting history does not suggest you are a grown man, but a frustrated, pathetic, lonely racist who feels the world he knew slipping away from him. I fully understand why you fell for the whole maga con.
I actually feel sorry for you, with all the non-Caucasian folks you loathe about to put people like you on the scrap heap of history.
But for now, you are lucky to have a racist emperor to worship, and it’s certainly possible he’ll get 4 more years. Enjoy bending the knee while you can, though. Whether it’s 2020, 2024 or 2028, the times they are a’changin’.
Black Lives Matter. We Are Marquette!
These are both examples of posts that add nothing to the conversation and are simply the same old crap that got two threads locked down.
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There is a false equivalency. ( don't you love it when I sound like a lawyer?) (Plausible deniability, sovereign immunity, reasonable doubt, ambiguities, etc.) Blah, blah, blah.
All protests are legitimate, is that a new concept?
Oh, I'm on the side of this one, but not the other one.
Who is to draw the line?
Thank God for violent opportunists.
Only DAT can use violence?
An unarmed guy get shot in the back by a thug, and we debate legitimate and illegitimate.
With that kind of thinking this is not going to end well.
The First Amendment gives us a right to express our views, so no, it isn’t a new concept. We draw the line at whether protesters are expressing their views peacefully or through violence or destruction. And the line has nothing to do with the content of the message.
You are making this harder than it really is.
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- No body cams (of course)
As someone who got into some BS in New Berlin (Thankfully thrown out in court) cops not having body cams, cruiser cams, or audio in 2020 is insane. Luckily I had a camera in my car in both the rear and front they didn't know about (cost $50)
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Your posting history does not suggest you are a grown man, but a frustrated, pathetic, lonely racist who feels the world he knew slipping away from him. I fully understand why you fell for the whole maga con.
I actually feel sorry for you, with all the non-Caucasian folks you loathe about to put people like you on the scrap heap of history.
But for now, you are lucky to have a racist emperor to worship, and it’s certainly possible he’ll get 4 more years. Enjoy bending the knee while you can, though. Whether it’s 2020, 2024 or 2028, the times they are a’changin’.
Black Lives Matter. We Are Marquette!
NO JUSTICE , NO PEACE.
When they come for you and me, don't say I didnt warn you.
BLM, laws matter, the constitution matters, American traditions matter, American institutions matter, honesty matters, principles matter.
I am as concerned that if DAT loses it might be worse. I'll have to get over that.
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These are both examples of posts that add nothing to the conversation and are simply the same old crap that got two threads locked down.
You mean the same old same old from all of them? I wished for 82 to get a vacation like chicos. He's a nice guy, but damn does he derail threads.
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You mean the same old same old from all of them? I wished for 82 to get a vacation like chicos. He's a nice guy, but damn does he derail threads.
I have gotten Scoopcations; I deserved them. But sorry, I won't let Ners post racist crap without calling him out. (And I'm not the only one, thankfully.) I also am not the one who "derailed" this thread. I mean, look at rocky's first post -- which I agree with, of course.
Holy crap. For those that don't like seeing black men shot in the back, don't watch.
Don't tell certain folks here, they've assured us that all live matter, and black people are given business opportunities that white people can't get, and that Marxists are trying to take over the country, and that protesters are trying to destroy cities, and that most violent crimes are committed by black people, and that calling something "white fragility" is racist, and that Wendy's franchises' lives matter too.
I'm not necessarily "woke", but wake up folks.
But thanks for the kind words, UD, and have a great evening.
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What about the cops in this case... Why haven't they been named? Why are they on "administrative" (paid) leave rather than unpaid leave. IMHO, the problem here is the police unions who protect these clowns and perpetuate the racism, violence and general lack of integrity of a few amongst a larger group of well meaning people. Some simple ways to end this:
- shoot someone, you go on unpaid leave until cleared. If it takes 10 years, tough... go work at Wal-Mart.
- must pay for your own defense, no help from police unions or any outside agency
- officers who shoot someone get named and published (with photos) immediately (why not, the victims are)
- A national register of violent policemen needs to be in place, with a federal law prohibiting any police force from hiring anyone on the list.
I'm not sure these clowns are capable of thinking, let alone thinking twice... but right now the paradigm of the bad cop is that they'll get away with it because of the protection they get from their union. Take that away and make them individually accountable and probably most will just choose another career.
By the way, in most of the rest of the world, cops don't have guns.
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What about the cops in this case... Why haven't they been named? Why are they on "administrative" (paid) leave rather than unpaid leave. IMHO, the problem here is the police unions who protect these clowns and perpetuate the racism, violence and general lack of integrity of a few amongst a larger group of well meaning people. Some simple ways to end this:
- shoot someone, you go on unpaid leave until cleared. If it takes 10 years, tough... go work at Wal-Mart.
- must pay for your own defense, no help from police unions or any outside agency
- officers who shoot someone get named and published (with photos) immediately (why not, the victims are)
- A national register of violent policemen needs to be in place, with a federal law prohibiting any police force from hiring anyone on the list.
I'm not sure these clowns are capable of thinking, let alone thinking twice... but right now the paradigm of the bad cop is that they'll get away with it because of the protection they get from their union. Take that away and make them individually accountable and probably most will just choose another career.
By the way, in most of the rest of the world, cops don't have guns.
Not to take away from the very bad policing that took place in Kenosha and is the root of this, but this is some WILD reactionary stuff.
Point 1: how will you ever expect to police high crime areas? How will police handle hostage situations? Police being shot at should now just bunker down or flee cause if they return fire they lose pay and maybe miss a mortgage payment. Unless, the minute the shooting is under investigation for improper use of force or whatnot, then they get switched, leading to point 2.
2: I don’t have a problem with this, within reason.
3: cause let’s say a cop shoots someone with a gun, the community/family/friends say it was a misunderstanding and he was innocent. The name is immediately published and a mob burns the dudes house down, or worse. Look what happened not long ago in Tosa. Again, you’re operating under the notion that ALL cops are bad and evil and criminal and ALL police shootings are unjust.
4: this works for me though. No more burying of records or hiding behind unions. Bad cops shouldn’t be cops. Just like any other profession. If you’re a bus driver and you keep crashing your bus, I don’t care what your union says, you shouldn’t be driving a damn bus.
This country has a serious policing problem. And reform is needed. But broad brush punishing all cops will only make things worse. I do wish policing was more like the UK. I think they do a lot of things right there, and watching the cops dealing with “violent” protesters in London was actually really refreshing. People full on throwing haymakers at cops trying to defend a barricade and the cops just pushed them back into the crowd. That would have led to brutal ends in the US.
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This country has a serious policing problem. And reform is needed. But broad brush punishing all cops will only make things worse. I do wish policing was more like the UK. I think they do a lot of things right there, and watching the cops dealing with “violent” protesters in London was actually really refreshing. People full on throwing haymakers at cops trying to defend a barricade and the cops just pushed them back into the crowd. That would have led to brutal ends in the US.
Like this very much. Well stated, Wags.
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As white people who never have to worry about police treating us this way, it is so easy to be philosophical about what needs to be done.
For blacks who have to watch this behavior from police over and over and over again, not quite as easy.
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Not to take away from the very bad policing that took place in Kenosha and is the root of this, but this is some WILD reactionary stuff.
Point 1: how will you ever expect to police high crime areas? How will police handle hostage situations? Police being shot at should now just bunker down or flee cause if they return fire they lose pay and maybe miss a mortgage payment. Unless, the minute the shooting is under investigation for improper use of force or whatnot, then they get switched, leading to point 2.
2: I don’t have a problem with this, within reason.
3: cause let’s say a cop shoots someone with a gun, the community/family/friends say it was a misunderstanding and he was innocent. The name is immediately published and a mob burns the dudes house down, or worse. Look what happened not long ago in Tosa. Again, you’re operating under the notion that ALL cops are bad and evil and criminal and ALL police shootings are unjust.
4: this works for me though. No more burying of records or hiding behind unions. Bad cops shouldn’t be cops. Just like any other profession. If you’re a bus driver and you keep crashing your bus, I don’t care what your union says, you shouldn’t be driving a damn bus.
This country has a serious policing problem. And reform is needed. But broad brush punishing all cops will only make things worse. I do wish policing was more like the UK. I think they do a lot of things right there, and watching the cops dealing with “violent” protesters in London was actually really refreshing. People full on throwing haymakers at cops trying to defend a barricade and the cops just pushed them back into the crowd. That would have led to brutal ends in the US.
I sincerely appreciate all of your points and, having lived in the UK, can reinforce that their model for policing works far better than the US model.
As for point 3, however, I'm pretty sure that if you or I shot someone 7 times in the back our mug(s) would be on the front page of every paper and web site. No cop should get any identity protection when they do it, justified or unjustified. Accountability drives behavior, and long term, accountability fixes problems.
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I have gotten Scoopcations; I deserved them. But sorry, I won't let Ners post racist crap without calling him out. (And I'm not the only one, thankfully.) I also am not the one who "derailed" this thread. I mean, look at rocky's first post -- which I agree with, of course.
But thanks for the kind words, UD, and have a great evening.
You were the first to call out someone specifically by name. It lended nothing to the topic.
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You were the first to call out someone specifically by name. It lended nothing to the topic.
Fair. I shouldn't have done it.
Meanwhile, on a related note:
NYT report shows that Black homeowners face discrimination during house appraisals.
Valuations of Black-owned homes tend to come in far lower than those of white-owned houses, even in mixed-race and predominantly white neighborhoods, The Times reports.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/25/realestate/blacks-minorities-appraisals-discrimination.html?campaign_id=4&emc=edit_dk_20200825&instance_id=21587&nl=dealbook®i_id=108420427&segment_id=36877&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Thankfully, there's no such thing as systemic racism.
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Fair. I shouldn't have done it.
Meanwhile, on a related note:
NYT report shows that Black homeowners face discrimination during house appraisals.
Valuations of Black-owned homes tend to come in far lower than those of white-owned houses, even in mixed-race and predominantly white neighborhoods, The Times reports.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/25/realestate/blacks-minorities-appraisals-discrimination.html?campaign_id=4&emc=edit_dk_20200825&instance_id=21587&nl=dealbook®i_id=108420427&segment_id=36877&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Thankfully, there's no such thing as systemic racism.
You do derail threads and get obnoxious at times, but you are the only one who owns it and apologies. Kudos
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it is disgusting what was done in Kenosha. Something needs to be done with the police and the way they handle these situations. This has gone on for so many years black men are scared of what the police will do to them. They want know part of being in police custody.
The looting and rioting does not help the issue. Leaders need to emerge on both sides
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No easy answers. Pessimistically, hoping we're not moving to civil war.
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No easy answers. Pessimistically, hoping we're not moving to civil war.
Same. Still unsure what it is that would actually spark a civil war barring the far right militias going and trying to occupy a minority area of a city but whenever it happens I'm dipping out of here.
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Man shot in back 7 times by Kenosha Police while walking away is now paralyzed from the waist down according to his father:
https://twitter.com/JonLemire/status/1298236506155266049?s=19
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What about the cops in this case... Why haven't they been named? Why are they on "administrative" (paid) leave rather than unpaid leave. IMHO, the problem here is the police unions who protect these clowns and perpetuate the racism, violence and general lack of integrity of a few amongst a larger group of well meaning people. Some simple ways to end this:
- shoot someone, you go on unpaid leave until cleared. If it takes 10 years, tough... go work at Wal-Mart.
- must pay for your own defense, no help from police unions or any outside agency
- officers who shoot someone get named and published (with photos) immediately (why not, the victims are)
- A national register of violent policemen needs to be in place, with a federal law prohibiting any police force from hiring anyone on the list.
I'm not sure these clowns are capable of thinking, let alone thinking twice... but right now the paradigm of the bad cop is that they'll get away with it because of the protection they get from their union. Take that away and make them individually accountable and probably most will just choose another career.
By the way, in most of the rest of the world, cops don't have guns.
They are not clowns, they are thugs, bullies and murderers.
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Let's not rush to judgment. We need to wait for the full story to emerge. I'm not convinced we've heard or seen it all. People who think they know, including Wisconsin's governor, are way ahead of the investigation and I fear they are trying to influence the outcome before the facts are known.
Patience is a virtue, especially if the goal is to get it right. I understand the anger and the bad feelings but do you want justice or retribution? Those are two very different things!
Look, if the police officers violated the civil rights of a Kenosha resident, by all means, throw the book at them. But let's make sure they acted outside the law and outside their training. If they didn't, then the broader question is whether the rules they followed were appropriate and if not, how do we change them. But don't deprive them of their legal protections. Don't deprive them of their union, to which they have a right, and above all, make sure the results of the investigation are agents of positive change.
If we strip away their union rights and reduce administrative protections against officers who parts of society believe have done them wrong, then a community will have an entirely different type of policing and an entirely different level of protection. What we really have to do is define what we want our police departments to do and then hire people who best fit the mission and develop training to imprint that mission on every officer.
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it is disgusting what was done in Kenosha. Something needs to be done with the police and the way they handle these situations. This has gone on for so many years black men are scared of what the police will do to them. They want know part of being in police custody.
The looting and rioting does not help the issue. Leaders need to emerge on both sides
Wrong, first things first. No justice no peace. The leaders on the left have done all they can do. The "leaders" on the right have done NOTHING.
The right has to clean up the criminal/political justice system. At this point the policing has not changed ( the cause) so the (effect) will not change.
When the IRA laid down their weapons Great Britain did the same. And BTW, the mothers did it.
The right wants more guns, more police militarization, more jails, more gated communities, and more agressive control.
For starts, the left wants police to stop shooting black men in the back. BLM
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Let's not rush to judgment. We need to wait for the full story to emerge. I'm not convinced we've heard or seen it all. People who think they know, including Wisconsin's governor, are way ahead of the investigation and I fear they are trying to influence the outcome before the facts are known.
Patience is a virtue, especially if the goal is to get it right. I understand the anger and the bad feelings but do you want justice or retribution? Those are two very different things!
Look, if the police officers violated the civil rights of a Kenosha resident, by all means, throw the book at them. But let's make sure they acted outside the law and outside their training. If they didn't, then the broader question is whether the rules they followed were appropriate and if not, how do we change them. But don't deprive them of their legal protections. Don't deprive them of their union, to which they have a right, and above all, make sure the results of the investigation are agents of positive change.
If we strip away their union rights and reduce administrative protections against officers who parts of society believe have done them wrong, then a community will have an entirely different type of policing and an entirely different level of protection. What we really have to do is define what we want our police departments to do and then hire people who best fit the mission and develop training to imprint that mission on every officer.
Get out of here, there has been forbearance for 200 years. You sound like a typical right wing lawyer taking the high road. This is war not a political issue. Politics has failed. When politics fails war ensues.
So you become a cop and you have a job for 20 years no matter what you do?
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Your posting history does not suggest you are a grown man, but a frustrated, pathetic, lonely racist who feels the world he knew slipping away from him. I fully understand why you fell for the whole maga con.
I actually feel sorry for you, with all the non-Caucasian folks you loathe about to put people like you on the scrap heap of history.
But for now, you are lucky to have a racist emperor to worship, and it’s certainly possible he’ll get 4 more years. Enjoy bending the knee while you can, though. Whether it’s 2020, 2024 or 2028, the times they are a’changin’.
Black Lives Matter. We Are Marquette!
Some nice fantasy you’ve concocted in your mind 82. None of which is true (other than Trump May get re-elected.)
You do realize being called racist by an ignorant, small-minded man like you doesn’t carry any weight? It’s par for the course for the intellectually inferior and hypocritical point of view that permeates the “thinking” of radical, left-wing extremist liberals like you.
Your kind are just as reprehensible as the extremist white supremacists on the extreme right. Neither faction wants to have an honest discussion about race issues in America.
And btw. Of course black lives matter. Just as traditional, western family values do too (in Western culture).
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Get out of here, there has been forbearance for 200 years. You sound like a typical right wing lawyer taking the high road. This is war not a political issue. Politics has failed. When politics fails war ensues.
So you become a cop and you have a job for 20 years no matter what you do?
[/b]
You can thank your radical left wing support of union culture for this reality. Unions are a joke. Nothing more than a pyramid scheme and protective mechanism for the worst in the membership.
The age of sweatshops in America and lack of employee rights has been gone for the better part of the last 50 years. Then again, you seem stuck in the 60s/70s.
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Your kind are just as reprehensible as the extremist white supremacists on the extreme right. Neither faction wants to have an honest discussion about race issues in America.
It's this type of false equivalency that is why nobody can take you seriously. One side is about actively hating minority groups and ensuring they know they are inferior. Another is just as closed minded but is trying to achieve equality. Saying they are the same is why people view you through the lenses they do.
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Let's not rush to judgment. We need to wait for the full story to emerge. I'm not convinced we've heard or seen it all. People who think they know, including Wisconsin's governor, are way ahead of the investigation and I fear they are trying to influence the outcome before the facts are known.
What? Are you Canadian or something? That's not how we do it in the US of A.
We have narratives to push!
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Some nice fantasy you’ve concocted in your mind 82. None of which is true (other than Trump May get re-elected.)
You do realize being called racist by an ignorant, small-minded man like you doesn’t carry any weight? It’s par for the course for the intellectually inferior and hypocritical point of view that permeates the “thinking” of radical, left-wing extremist liberals like you.
Your kind are just as reprehensible as the extremist white supremacists on the extreme right. Neither faction wants to have an honest discussion about race issues in America.
And btw. Of course black lives matter. Just as traditional, western family values do too (in Western culture).
I've said my piece. So in the name of peace, I'll give you the last word here.
Black Lives Matter. We Are Marquette!
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It's this type of false equivalency that is why nobody can take you seriously. One side is about actively hating minority groups and ensuring they know they are inferior. Another is just as closed minded but is trying to achieve equality. Saying they are the same is why people view you through the lenses they do.
That and the fact that anybody who does not vote for Donald Trump is now a "radical far left liberal extremist" to MAGAs. It's hilarious.
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Has nothing to do with narratives when multiple police officers have a chance to stop a suspect without deadly force instead CHOOSE to use deadly force.
I don't give a single crap if Jacob Blake had a gun in his car, it is completely irrelevant. Three to one, physically restrain him. Don't wait for him to walk around to his driver seat, and then shoot him. That's wrong. I don't need an investigation. The video speaks for itself.
Charge the officer that pulled the trigger with attempted murder. Do it today.
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Has nothing to do with narratives when multiple police officers have a chance to stop a suspect without deadly force instead CHOOSE to use deadly force.
I don't give a single crap if Jacob Blake had a gun in his car, it is completely irrelevant. Three to one, physically restrain him. Don't wait for him to walk around to his driver seat, and then shoot him. That's wrong. I don't need an investigation. The video speaks for itself.
Charge the officer that pulled the trigger with attempted murder. Do it today.
Agree if you or I were caught on video shooting another man in the back like that charges would have been filed already
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Agree if you or I were caught on video shooting another man in the back like that charges would have been filed already
Not in Florida. You could probably get away claiming some BS stand your ground.
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Has nothing to do with narratives when multiple police officers have a chance to stop a suspect without deadly force instead CHOOSE to use deadly force.
I don't give a single crap if Jacob Blake had a gun in his car, it is completely irrelevant. Three to one, physically restrain him. Don't wait for him to walk around to his driver seat, and then shoot him. That's wrong. I don't need an investigation. The video speaks for itself.
Charge the officer that pulled the trigger with attempted murder. Do it today.
Bingo.
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Has nothing to do with narratives when multiple police officers have a chance to stop a suspect without deadly force instead CHOOSE to use deadly force.
I don't give a single crap if Jacob Blake had a gun in his car, it is completely irrelevant. Three to one, physically restrain him. Don't wait for him to walk around to his driver seat, and then shoot him. That's wrong. I don't need an investigation. The video speaks for itself.
Charge the officer that pulled the trigger with attempted murder. Do it today.
Too many right wing fascists in this country for us to do the right thing. In their mind they are right. They think everything is debatable, they are simply amoral people.
That is why there is no center.
Our entire system is pathetic.
1. Change the subject
2. Introduce a red herring
3. Challenge the question
4. Argue semantics
5. Rant
6. Lie
7. Exaggerate
8. Gas light
9. Win, win, win
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Let's not rush to judgment. We need to wait for the full story to emerge. I'm not convinced we've heard or seen it all. People who think they know, including Wisconsin's governor, are way ahead of the investigation and I fear they are trying to influence the outcome before the facts are known.
Patience is a virtue, especially if the goal is to get it right. I understand the anger and the bad feelings but do you want justice or retribution? Those are two very different things!
Look, if the police officers violated the civil rights of a Kenosha resident, by all means, throw the book at them. But let's make sure they acted outside the law and outside their training. If they didn't, then the broader question is whether the rules they followed were appropriate and if not, how do we change them. But don't deprive them of their legal protections. Don't deprive them of their union, to which they have a right, and above all, make sure the results of the investigation are agents of positive change.
If we strip away their union rights and reduce administrative protections against officers who parts of society believe have done them wrong, then a community will have an entirely different type of policing and an entirely different level of protection. What we really have to do is define what we want our police departments to do and then hire people who best fit the mission and develop training to imprint that mission on every officer.
With all due respect, you've built a big old straw man here. I don't see anyone in this discussion - or in the general public - suggesting anything to the contrary of what you've written. There's no popular demand to strip the cop of his legal rights. Or his union rights. Nobody is demanding extrajudicial punishment. Nobody is trying to drag him out to a tree for a good old fashioned lynching or, you know, shooting him repeatedly in the back.
That said, your comments about how you're not convinced there isn't more to the story is illustrative of the problem we have as a society when it comes to bad policing.
You - like a lot of people, especially non-minorities - just have a hard time grasping the realities of how law enforcement all too often treats people of color differently than people who look like you and me. I get it. The cops in our world are the "good guys" and the vast majority, if not all, of our interactions with them are positive. Our worldviews are shaped primarily by our experiences.
So that being the case, your baseline assumption is that the person on the receiving end of police brutality must have done something to deserve it and that assumption remains, even when there's video showing otherwise. Don't believe your lying eyes, right?
Unfortunately, that's not reality, and it's hard to imagine how some people still refuse to accept that, despite mounds of evidence to the contrary.
It's also kind of telling that you've written a couple hundred words here expressing concern for the officer's treatment, but all you can say for Jacob Blake is that his civil rights may have been violated. Man was shot 6-7 times in the back and you see it as a civil rights violation? Justice for Jacob Blake is secondary to "positive change" (whatever the heck that's supposed to mean)?
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1. Change the subject
2. Introduce a red herring
3. Chalenge the question
4. Argue semantics
5. Rant
6. Lie
7. Exaggerate
8. Gas light
9. Win, win, win
I feel like this is the best definition of "politics" I've ever seen.
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I feel like this is the best definition of "politics" I've ever seen.
Not politics, dishonest politics.
Where are the honest brokers?
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Not politics, dishonest politics.
Where are the honest brokers?
Haven't been around in my lifetime.
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With all due respect, you've built a big old straw man here. I don't see anyone in this discussion - or in the general public - suggesting anything to the contrary of what you've written. There's no popular demand to strip the cop of his legal rights. Or his union rights. Nobody is demanding extrajudicial punishment. Nobody is trying to drag him out to a tree for a good old fashioned lynching or, you know, shooting him repeatedly in the back.
That said, your comments about how you're not convinced there isn't more to the story is illustrative of the problem we have as a society when it comes to bad policing.
You - like a lot of people, especially non-minorities - just have a hard time grasping the realities of how law enforcement all too often treats people of color differently than people who look like you and me. I get it. The cops in our world are the "good guys" and the vast majority, if not all, of our interactions with them are positive. Our worldviews are shaped primarily by our experiences.
So that being the case, your baseline assumption is that the person on the receiving end of police brutality must have done something to deserve it and that assumption remains, even when there's video showing otherwise. Don't believe your lying eyes, right?
Unfortunately, that's not reality, and it's hard to imagine how some people still refuse to accept that, despite mounds of evidence to the contrary.
It's also kind of telling that you've written a couple hundred words here expressing concern for the officer's treatment, but all you can say for Jacob Blake is that his civil rights may have been violated. Man was shot 6-7 times in the back and you see it as a civil rights violation? Justice for Jacob Blake is secondary to "positive change" (whatever the heck that's supposed to mean)?
Don't waste your breath with people like him, and accept that there are millions of them.
Try alternative 2.
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Haven't been around in my lifetime.
Unfortunatly, not surprising.
We don't have any gray beards anymore.
The electorate wants the new shining thing.
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I don't give a single crap if Jacob Blake had a gun in his car, it is completely irrelevant.
This is where you lose a lot of people.
The police were trying what they were trying and it didn't work. They are now in a new situation.
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This is where you lose a lot of people.
The police were trying what they were trying and it didn't work. They are now in a new situation.
Respect is a two way street.
Let the police show some respect and we may find the country showing respect for police.
However, the new generation seems to not respect anything.
Trying what?
Overwhelming force, drawn guns, intimidation?
You will never convence me that cops are not the high school bully with a badge and a gun.
Zero tolerance for these skin heads in uniform.
When they come for you, good luck.
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You do realize being called racist by an ignorant, small-minded man like you doesn’t carry any weight? It’s par for the course for the intellectually inferior and hypocritical point of view that permeates the “thinking” of radical, left-wing extremist liberals like you.
There are many of us “ignorant, small-minded men” here that feel the same way.
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This is where you lose a lot of people.
The police were trying what they were trying and it didn't work. They are now in a new situation.
No, not really. There were three officers. If the three of them can't subdue a suspect easily, maybe they're not cut out to be officers. If they're worried, tackle him, zip tie him, and have a conversation. Instead, weapons were drawn, each side felt threatened, and things escalated. Again.
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There are many of us “ignorant, small-minded men” here that feel the same way.
Yes, millions.
And using big words does not intimidate us.
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No, not really. There were three officers. If the three of them can't subdue a suspect easily, maybe they're not cut out to be officers. If they're worried, tackle him, zip tie him, and have a conversation. Instead, weapons were drawn, each side felt threatened, and things escalated. Again.
Your best word was, again.
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No, not really. There were three officers. If the three of them can't subdue a suspect easily, maybe they're not cut out to be officers. If they're worried, tackle him, zip tie him, and have a conversation. Instead, weapons were drawn, each side felt threatened, and things escalated. Again.
Yep.
Oh, and don't kneel on his neck with a sh!t-eating grin on your face while he gasps for air and dies under your knee 9 minutes later. That too.
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Some nice fantasy you’ve concocted in your mind 82. None of which is true (other than Trump May get re-elected.)
You do realize being called racist by an ignorant, small-minded man like you doesn’t carry any weight? It’s par for the course for the intellectually inferior and hypocritical point of view that permeates the “thinking” of radical, left-wing extremist liberals like you.
Your kind are just as reprehensible as the extremist white supremacists on the extreme right. Neither faction wants to have an honest discussion about race issues in America.
And btw. Of course black lives matter. Just as traditional, western family values do too (in Western culture).
Man you just cannot stop telling us who you are, can you?
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No easy answers. Pessimistically, hoping we're not moving to civil war.
Of course we aren't. Just because a few buildings are burning in Kenosha and that there are riots in the streets of Portland doesn't mean we are living with a complete breakdown of law and order. You are perfectly safe up in the Quon. Just like my friend in Hawthorn Woods who bragged about stocking up on his ammo during the Michigan Avenue looting.
Just keep things in perspective.
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More systemic racism ...
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/banking/article245233685.html?
Wells Fargo will pay $7.8 million in back wages to settle accusations from the federal government that it discriminated against tens of thousands of Black and female job applicants, the U.S. Department of Labor said.
Sexism, too -- two for the price of one!
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Of course we aren't. Just because a few buildings are burning in Kenosha and that there are riots in the streets of Portland doesn't mean we are living with a complete breakdown of law and order. You are perfectly safe up in the Quon. Just like my friend in Hawthorn Woods who bragged about stocking up on his ammo during the Michigan Avenue looting.
Just keep things in perspective.
Seriously. How would have these people have fared in the 60s/early 70s if they think we're headed toward civil war now?
Political assassinations. Civil rights activists murdered by the hard right. Cops murdered by the hard left. Bombings by domestic terrorists on both sides. Days-long riots that left dozens dead. National guardsmen gunning down college kids. Rioting at a political convention. Oh, and the Vietnam War.
We've been through much worse just in the last 50 years.
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With all due respect, you've built a big old straw man here. I don't see anyone in this discussion - or in the general public - suggesting anything to the contrary of what you've written. There's no popular demand to strip the cop of his legal rights. Or his union rights. Nobody is demanding extrajudicial punishment. Nobody is trying to drag him out to a tree for a good old fashioned lynching or, you know, shooting him repeatedly in the back.
That said, your comments about how you're not convinced there isn't more to the story is illustrative of the problem we have as a society when it comes to bad policing.
You - like a lot of people, especially non-minorities - just have a hard time grasping the realities of how law enforcement all too often treats people of color differently than people who look like you and me. I get it. The cops in our world are the "good guys" and the vast majority, if not all, of our interactions with them are positive. Our worldviews are shaped primarily by our experiences.
So that being the case, your baseline assumption is that the person on the receiving end of police brutality must have done something to deserve it and that assumption remains, even when there's video showing otherwise. Don't believe your lying eyes, right?
Unfortunately, that's not reality, and it's hard to imagine how some people still refuse to accept that, despite mounds of evidence to the contrary.
It's also kind of telling that you've written a couple hundred words here expressing concern for the officer's treatment, but all you can say for Jacob Blake is that his civil rights may have been violated. Man was shot 6-7 times in the back and you see it as a civil rights violation? Justice for Jacob Blake is secondary to "positive change" (whatever the heck that's supposed to mean)?
Wow, all I can say is, wow!
Justice in the United States means everyone has their day in court. It means we are judged by a jury of our peers based on the rules of evidence. Punishment is based on the rule of law.
Justice for Jacob Blake will come when all the facts are on full display and vetted by an objective Wisconsin Attorney General or Justice Department. I'm confident and positive that if the Justice Department intervenes, he will do what is right and proper, as they have done in other circumstances in cities across the U.S. And, by the way, he was a carryover from the Obama Administration.
Anything else is retribution.
You may want to reread some of the comments about the FOP and police administrative practices in this thread. There's conversation around stripping the union and changing administrative practices.
As a second note, the cops are not often "good guys" with me either. I've had more than my share of run-ins over the years with power-hungry police officers. For that reason, I'm not assuming Jacob Blake did anything. I'm waiting for a full review of the evidence, including things the camera may not have picked up.
Finally, positive change means getting rid of police officers who abuse power, ensuring everyone's civil rights is protected and treating everyone fairly. OK, enough with the abstract nouns. My bad.
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Wow, all I can say is, wow!
Justice in the United States means everyone has their day in court. It means we are judged by a jury of our peers based on the rules of evidence. Punishment is based on the rule of law.
Justice for Jacob Blake will come when all the facts are on full display and vetted by an objective Wisconsin Attorney General or Justice Department. I'm confident and positive that if the Justice Department intervenes, he will do what is right and proper, as they have done in other circumstances in cities across the U.S. And, by the way, he was a carryover from the Obama Administration.
Anything else is retribution.
You may want to reread some of the comments about the FOP and police administrative practices in this thread. There's conversation around stripping the union and changing administrative practices.
As a second note, the cops are not often "good guys" with me either. I've had more than my share of run-ins over the years with power-hungry police officers. For that reason, I'm not assuming Jacob Blake did anything. I'm waiting for a full review of the evidence, including things the camera may not have picked up.
Finally, positive change means getting rid of police officers who abuse power, ensuring everyone's civil rights is protected and treating everyone fairly. OK, enough with the abstract nouns. My bad.
The police officer felt so threatened that he grabbed the guy's shirt before shooting him 7 times in his back. A day in court wasn't needed here. You saw everything you needed to.
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No, not really. There were three officers. If the three of them can't subdue a suspect easily, maybe they're not cut out to be officers. If they're worried, tackle him, zip tie him, and have a conversation. Instead, weapons were drawn, each side felt threatened, and things escalated. Again.
You're seeing what you want to see. I'll wait for the report.
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Justice in the United States means everyone has their day in court. It means we are judged by a jury of our peers based on the rules of evidence. Punishment is based on the rule of law.
The problem with this, of course, is that history has shown that people of color very often do not get their fair day in court. They are more likely to be accused, more likely to not be able to pay bail, more likely to be convicted, more likely to receive harsher sentences and more likely to be falsely charged and convicted, than white people who are accused and/or convicted of the exact same offenses.
Meanwhile, it historically has been almost impossible to see justice meted out properly against law enforcement. Before body cams it was all but impossible; now the situation has improved to almost impossible.
Things finally do appear to be changing just a little bit. Maybe. A tiny, little, bitty bit ... and when that happens nearly half the country loses their shyte. "They are lawless anarchists who want to abolish the suburbs!"
So while I really, really want to believe that this case will be adjudicated fairly, it's not easy to believe that it will be, even for an optimist like me.
But yes, I get what you're saying, dg, and there's nothing I can do about it anyway except watch from afar, hope, stay engaged, and vote.
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Wow, all I can say is, wow!
Justice in the United States means everyone has their day in court. It means we are judged by a jury of our peers based on the rules of evidence. Punishment is based on the rule of law..
And, once again, nobody is saying anything different.
And, once again, your concern here seems revolve entirely around the treatment of the officer and not the man he shot repeatedly in the back.
If roles were reversed, and we were talking about a cop lying paralyzed in a hospital after being shot in the back by a citizen, I wonder if you'd be so concerned about a rush to judgement. If it were caught on video, would you be like "Let's just hold on here. I've got a feeling there's more to this story"?
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Seriously. How would have these people have fared in the 60s/early 70s if they think we're headed toward civil war now?
Political assassinations. Civil rights activists murdered by the hard right. Cops murdered by the hard left. Bombings by domestic terrorists on both sides. Days-long riots that left dozens dead. National guardsmen gunning down college kids. Rioting at a political convention. Oh, and the Vietnam War.
We've been through much worse just in the last 50 years.
This is not 1968.
Many white people are no longer fearful of people of color.
Yesterday I canceled my membership in the American Legion.
They are living in the past.
Right wing gun toting (with or without the protection of the P.B.A.) thugs are going to lose this time.
Vietnam ended, finally, the cities stoped burning, and the powers that be came up with a solution.
Put a million black men in jail, shoot God knows how many, move to gated communities, and then die and claim victory.
It worked, but now it's not working because it is not 1968.
Therefore, the powers that be need a new plan.
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This is not 1968.
Many white people are no longer fearful of people of color.
Yesterday I canceled my membership in the American Legion.
They are living in the past.
Right wing gun toting (with or without the protection of the P.B.A.) thugs are going to lose this time.
Vietnam ended, finally, the cities stoped burning, and the powers that be came up with a solution.
Put a million black men in jail, shoot God knows how many, move to gated communities, and then die and claim victory.
It worked, but now it's not working because it is not 1968.
Therefore, the powers that be need a new plan.
I really wish you would stop quoting people and commenting out of context.
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And, once again, nobody is saying anything different.
And, once again, your concern here seems revolve entirely around the treatment of the officer and not the man he shot repeatedly in the back.
If roles were reversed, and we were talking about a cop lying paralyzed in a hospital after being shot in the back by a citizen, I wonder if you'd be so concerned about a rush to judgement.
Overwhemling force, bulletproof vest, flashing high powered lights, back-up on the way with sirens blaring vs.a black guy in a tee shirt, by himself with his children.
Cops are real heros.
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I really wish you would stop quoting people and commenting out of context.
Who did I quote?
Conversations move along, can't be controlled or dominated by anyone.
Typical, argue process, syntax, style, never have a conversation. I know, you wish you could dominate me, intimidate me, well, thanks for trying.
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I really wish you would stop quoting people and commenting out of context.
The subject was the country in the 1960's and early 1970's.
Anything relating to that period is within context, even if some people don't like the truth.
Some people can't handle the truth.
Living in a world of alternative facts, conspiracies, revisionist history, must be frustrating.
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Who did I quote?
Conversations move along, can't be controlled or dominated by anyone.
Typical, argue process, syntax, style, never have a conversation. I know, you wish you could dominate me, intimidate me, well, thanks for trying.
You don't converse. You don't invite people to engage in conversation. You pontificate and label. And quote people out of context as part of it.
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Seriously. How would have these people have fared in the 60s/early 70s if they think we're headed toward civil war now?
Political assassinations. Civil rights activists murdered by the hard right. Cops murdered by the hard left. Bombings by domestic terrorists on both sides. Days-long riots that left dozens dead. National guardsmen gunning down college kids. Rioting at a political convention. Oh, and the Vietnam War.
We've been through much worse just in the last 50 years.
As of nbow, you are 100% correct.
That could change in November. If POTUS uses armed "poll watchers" as he has said he will, and then refuses to leave if he loses (he has said he won't accept the results if he loses), all bets are off. He has said the military, bikers and police will support his actions.
If (and that is a big IF) he keeps his promise, some version of a civil war may break out. If he loses and refuses to leave, that is a terrorist act of overthrowing the gov't. That is a reason to take up arms.
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You don't converse. You don't invite people to engage in conversation. You pontificate and label. And quote people out of context as part of it.
(Mike Breen voice) “Lillard pulls up from 30 feet...BAAAANNNNGGG”
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EM, you may want to hold your fire on the police unions. Lots of them are backing your guy.
For the nth time, this discussion underscores why it is so difficult to find enough quality qualified individuals to be police officers. Because both political sides want to label them and use them as a soccer ball when this stuff goes on. The left goes to racism, the right to unions.
Why in the hell would anyone want to be a cop? Just like teachers. Generally underfunded and underpaid. Blamed by all sides for society's ills.
The average cop is trying to do the right thing and go home at the end of the day.
Don't need to defund them. Need to give them adequate numbers and different, better training.
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EM, you may want to hold your fire on the police unions. Lots of them are backing your guy.
For the nth time, this discussion underscores why it is so difficult to find enough quality qualified individuals to be police officers. Because both political sides want to label them and use them as a soccer ball when this stuff goes on. The left goes to racism, the right to unions.
Why in the hell would anyone want to be a cop? Just like teachers. Generally underfunded and underpaid. Blamed by all sides for society's ills.
The average cop is trying to do the right thing and go home at the end of the day.
Don't need to defund them. Need to give them adequate numbers and different, better training.
You, Fluffy, 4Never and Dgies trying to have a civil discourse (about the only ones on this thread).
Vogue needs to get back on his meds.
I need more popcorn.
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As of nbow, you are 100% correct.
That could change in November. If POTUS uses armed "poll watchers" as he has said he will, and then refuses to leave if he loses (he has said he won't accept the results if he loses), all bets are off. He has said the military, bikers and police will support his actions.
If (and that is a big IF) he keeps his promise, some version of a civil war may break out. If he loses and refuses to leave, that is a terrorist act of overthrowing the gov't. That is a reason to take up arms.
I think you are on the wrong fringe theory message board
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As of nbow, you are 100% correct.
That could change in November. If POTUS uses armed "poll watchers" as he has said he will, and then refuses to leave if he loses (he has said he won't accept the results if he loses), all bets are off. He has said the military, bikers and police will support his actions.
If (and that is a big IF) he keeps his promise, some version of a civil war may break out. If he loses and refuses to leave, that is a terrorist act of overthrowing the gov't. That is a reason to take up arms.
Cmon....
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I sincerely appreciate all of your points and, having lived in the UK, can reinforce that their model for policing works far better than the US model.
As for point 3, however, I'm pretty sure that if you or I shot someone 7 times in the back our mug(s) would be on the front page of every paper and web site. No cop should get any identity protection when they do it, justified or unjustified. Accountability drives behavior, and long term, accountability fixes problems.
Our mugs wouldn't be on the front page until AFTER we were charged with a crime, the police shouldn't be named before that happens to them IMO.
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And, once again, nobody is saying anything different.
And, once again, your concern here seems revolve entirely around the treatment of the officer and not the man he shot repeatedly in the back.
If roles were reversed, and we were talking about a cop lying paralyzed in a hospital after being shot in the back by a citizen, I wonder if you'd be so concerned about a rush to judgement. If it were caught on video, would you be like "Let's just hold on here. I've got a feeling there's more to this story"?
Brother Pakuni, of course I would feel the same regardless of who was injured. The Due Process clauses contained in the 5th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America is the basis of my concern. In both cases, the Constitution says, "No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." The 14th Amendment says, "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
If the circumstances were reversed, I would expect NOTHING different. When a District Attorney brings charges against a citizen, I would expect them to be well-researched and well-documented by provable facts. If it takes time, so be it!
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Brother Pakuni, of course I would feel the same regardless of who was injured. The Due Process clauses contained in the 5th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America is the basis of my concern. In both cases, the Constitution says, "No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." The 14th Amendment says, "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
If the circumstances were reversed, I would expect NOTHING different. When a District Attorney brings charges against a citizen, I would expect them to be well-researched and well-documented by provable facts. If it takes time, so be it!
Black people are consistently being deprived of life (and liberty) consistently without the due process of law.
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Yes. BLM exists because unarmed black people keep getting shot by police. Police unions exist to make sure their members are treated fairly and are protected from frivolous, false, or politically motivated punishments.
So, stop shooting unarmed black people.
Punish to the utmost those who do.
Recognize that every single move you make is now being recorded and there will be accountability.
Think.
Don't attack cops over nonsense. Don't turn something small into something big.
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Yes. BLM exists because unarmed black people keep getting shot by police. Police unions exist to make sure their members are treated fairly and are protected from frivolous, false, or politically motivated punishments.
So, stop shooting unarmed black people.
Punish to the utmost those who do.
Recognize that every single move you make is now being recorded and there will be accountability.
Think.
Don't attack cops over nonsense. Don't turn something small into something big.
Yeah I'm not sure about that regarding the police unions.
Yes, Vanity Fair leans a certain direction but consider direct quotes.
https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2020/08/americas-brotherhood-of-police-officers
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You don't converse. You don't invite people to engage in conversation. You pontificate and label. And quote people out of context as part of it.
Sorry, I didn't realize that pontificating was a sin. Where did you get that big word? It's a nice put down word. I have a list I use with lawyers.
I was on K street with high priced corporate lawyers and my lawyer, the Justice Department.
I was amazed how juvenile, petty, irrevelant, and insulting, they were.
Then I went to lunch with a lawyer friend and asked him how he deals with d**k lawyers. He said he responds in kind. What a profession.
Topic is pontificateing, right? Try it you may like it.
Labels must be another sin. Bully, thug, trouble maker, lier, narcissistic personality disorder, what have I Ieft out? How about control freek, Fashist, provacture, loser, stiff? How about blowhard, know nothing, adulterer, pedifile, con-man? In my day, draft dodger, civil rights activist, or community organizer might apply to some.
Do any of those labels fit anyone you know?
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You, Fluffy, 4Never and Dgies trying to have a civil discourse (about the only ones on this thread).
Vogue needs to get back on his meds.
I need more popcorn bacon.
FIFY
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FIFY
Very insulting, not funny, small minded, cruel and insensitive, but you are welcome to your opinion. People who take meds. and those who should, should not be the butt of civilized peoples discourse.
I have an idea, put me on ignore and I won't bother you anymore, you can stay with like "minded" people.
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https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/status/1298344285079838720?s=20
Dear white people. You're not helping.
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Yeah I'm not sure about that regarding the police unions.
Yes, Vanity Fair leans a certain direction but consider direct quotes.
https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2020/08/americas-brotherhood-of-police-officers
Yes. And...
The citadel mindset comes from feeling attacked from all sides. It is easy to paint with a broad brush and say 'white guys'. But, like in most cases, there are many elements. I am by no means defending the indefensible actions of some unions and union leaders. And I think the 'us vs. them' mindset is no way to go through life. Sports teams for a season, sure. Your entire life, no. But I also know, from speaking to my police brethren on a daily basis, that they feel the pressure from all sides. From the R's who want them to be the thick blue line, but want their pay, their benefits, and their pensions.
From the poor communities that don't trust them, won't give them information to help solve the crimes, and yet still want them to perform miracles.
From the cities that don't want to hire enough of them, don't want to spend the money on community policing, don't want to pay to actually get them the kind of training that would help prevent some of these things, play games with overtime, and yet expect miracles.
These men and women are human. Sometimes they f up. Immeasurably. And people who are feeling overworked, stressed, scapegoated, and besieged f up more.
Sadly, lately, the f-ing up is huge, public, unforgivable, with massive consequences.
And all of these things are why more people aren't trying to be cops.
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Black people are consistently being deprived of life (and liberty) consistently without the due process of law.
Because?
The union contract.
The blue line.
The police culture.
The training or lack there of.
The hiring of thugs.
Poor police tactics.
The patrol manual.
Glock automatic pistols, which are advertised "turning a hand gun into a machine gun".
And then we have legal mumbo jumbo, due process, probable cause, use of force policy, change of venue, and the all time best " he was fearful for his life" so he shot the mother in the back, right.
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Very insulting, not funny, small minded, cruel and insensitive, but you are welcome to your opinion. People who take meds. and those who should, should not be the butt of civilized peoples discourse.
I have an idea, put me on ignore and I won't bother you anymore, you can stay with like "minded" people.
Man, you did it again. He’s not the one who even originally said what you found offensive, he edited part of it for a joke.
And you’ve managed to alienate people on both sides of the political spectrum as you’ve gotten increasingly nasty and off topic in your tone. It’s rich that you feel you’re the most knowledgeable about what divides America as you wantonly chuck people into broad brush labeled groups and boxes and everyone who doesn’t stand up and applaud your meandering rants is deemed a sheep or something of that nature. I don’t always agree with Fluffy and some of the other people in here, but the majority of them are fair and will have reasonable conversation and cede to other’s well made points, even if it is counter to their own beliefs. Something you should give a try instead of calling others “Fashists” cause they dare disagree with you
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Yes. And...
The citadel mindset comes from feeling attacked from all sides. It is easy to paint with a broad brush and say 'white guys'. But, like in most cases, there are many elements. I am by no means defending the indefensible actions of some unions and union leaders. And I think the 'us vs. them' mindset is no way to go through life. Sports teams for a season, sure. Your entire life, no. But I also know, from speaking to by police brethren on a daily basis, that they feel the pressure from all sides. From the R's who want them to be the thick blue line, but want their pay, their benefits, and their pensions.
From the poor communities that don't trust them, won't give them information to help solve the crimes, and yet still want them to perform miracles.
From the cities that don't want to hire enough of them, don't want to spend the money on community policing, don't want to pay to actually get them the kind of training that would help prevent some of these things, play games with overtime, and yet expect miracles.
These men and women are human. Sometimes they f up. Immeasurably. And people who are feeling overworked, stressed, scapegoated, and besieged f up more.
Sadly, lately, the f-ing up is huge, public, unforgivable, with massive consequences.
And all of these things are why more people aren't trying to be cops.
The Citadel, been there, a very strange place.
Seriously, great essay on the problem, who will present a solution?
Only the winner of the demographic dilemma.
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Yes. And...
The citadel mindset comes from feeling attacked from all sides. It is easy to paint with a broad brush and say 'white guys'. But, like in most cases, there are many elements. I am by no means defending the indefensible actions of some unions and union leaders. And I think the 'us vs. them' mindset is no way to go through life. Sports teams for a season, sure. Your entire life, no. But I also know, from speaking to by police brethren on a daily basis, that they feel the pressure from all sides. From the R's who want them to be the thick blue line, but want their pay, their benefits, and their pensions.
From the poor communities that don't trust them, won't give them information to help solve the crimes, and yet still want them to perform miracles.
From the cities that don't want to hire enough of them, don't want to spend the money on community policing, don't want to pay to actually get them the kind of training that would help prevent some of these things, play games with overtime, and yet expect miracles.
These men and women are human. Sometimes they f up. Immeasurably. And people who are feeling overworked, stressed, scapegoated, and besieged f up more.
Sadly, lately, the f-ing up is huge, public, unforgivable, with massive consequences.
And all of these things are why more people aren't trying to be cops.
Your empathy is truly admirable, tower, but I think in your desire to be empathetic you're ignoring some of the real issues behind bad policing in this country.
What you say about stress, unrealistic expectations and substandard training is true. These are legitimate problems and legitimate grievances in the law enforcement community. But what happened in Kenosha and Minneapolis and Louisville and God knows how many other places wasn't a result of the public expecting too much of cops, or overtime schedules, or salaries. They weren't the result of poor training or a lack of community support.
These "f ups," as you euphemistically call them, were a result of officers who willfully ignored their training and chose to abuse their authority. Not an "f up" but a malicious misuse of the power we the public give them. And that, I believe, is borne out of a jacked up "us vs them" law enforcement culture that too often encourages that kind of abuse and fails to punish the perpetrators.
Pulling over the wrong person because you were tired and misread a warrant is a law enforcement mistake. Kneeling on a person's neck for 9 minutes until they die or busting down a door and fatally shooting a sleeping woman is not merely human error.
This by no means is to say all cops are bad or abuse their authority, of course. The great majority do not. But the culture of law enforcement enables and encourages the bad actors.
And until we address those cultural issues, all the salary hikes, pension benefits and 'attaboys' from the community aren't going to make a bit of difference.
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And you’ve managed to alienate people on both sides of the political spectrum as you’ve gotten increasingly nasty and off topic in your tone.
Some could even say its intentional....
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Man, you did it again. He’s not the one who even originally said what you found offensive, he edited part of it for a joke.
And you’ve managed to alienate people on both sides of the political spectrum as you’ve gotten increasingly nasty and off topic in your tone. It’s rich that you feel you’re the most knowledgeable about what divides America as you wantonly chuck people into broad brush labeled groups and boxes and everyone who doesn’t stand up and applaud your meandering rants is deemed a sheep or something of that nature. I don’t always agree with Fluffy and some of the other people in here, but the majority of them are fair and will have reasonable conversation and cede to other’s well made points, even if it is counter to their own beliefs. Something you should give a try instead of calling others “Fashists” cause they dare disagree with you
I called nobody a Fashist, although perhaps I should.
If people on both sides are alienated, I must be in the middle, thanks for the complement.
Isn't left/right itself a broad brush label?
Without my style this becomes a very boring place.
Fashists don't disagree with me, they have a world view, a philosophy, that has nearly brought down the world once.
Interesting that from my long list of insults you take offence at Fashist.
If you think I'm nasty you have not heard anything yet, ha.
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Some could even say its intentional....
Hay smart guy, you haven't noticed tha I'm not on either side of your divide, I'm a retired technocrat. We sound intentionally offensive to a lot of people because we deal in real fact, real solutions, in a world where problems are solved. We don't sugar coat, find fault, make up laws, insult people with thin skin.
It is not a toxic environment, like happens around here JBTL.
BLM
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Hay smart guy, you haven't noticed tha I'm not on either side of your divide, I'm a retired technocrat. We sound intentionally offensive to a lot of people because we deal in real fact, real solutions, in a world where problems are solved. We don't sugar coat, find fault, make up laws, insult people with thin skin.
It is not a toxic environment, like happens around here JBTL.
BLM
You're not offensive. You're just weird. And verbose....very verbose.
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Man, you did it again. He’s not the one who even originally said what you found offensive, he edited part of it for a joke.
And you’ve managed to alienate people on both sides of the political spectrum as you’ve gotten increasingly nasty and off topic in your tone. It’s rich that you feel you’re the most knowledgeable about what divides America as you wantonly chuck people into broad brush labeled groups and boxes and everyone who doesn’t stand up and applaud your meandering rants is deemed a sheep or something of that nature. I don’t always agree with Fluffy and some of the other people in here, but the majority of them are fair and will have reasonable conversation and cede to other’s well made points, even if it is counter to their own beliefs. Something you should give a try instead of calling others “Fashists” cause they dare disagree with you
Life is short, for me, no time for nice, nice.
I only offend the guilty.
The great comentators don't need my acalades, the conversation get's broadened without talking points.
You won't hear talking points from me.
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Pakuni, punish the bad actors. Each and every one of them to the fullest extent of the law. They fd up. Like any other murderer, give them their due process. If found guilty, send them away. Their punishment awaits.
But look at the big picture how we got here. Like any other major catastrophe, it isn't because of only one thing.
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I called nobody a Fashist, although perhaps I should.
If people on both sides are alienated, I must be in the middle, thanks for the complement.
Isn't left/right itself a broad brush label?
Without my style this becomes a very boring place.
Fashists don't disagree with me, they have a world view, a philosophy, that has nearly brought down the world once.
Interesting that from my long list of insults you take offence at Fashist.
If you think I'm nasty you have not heard anything yet, ha.
I wasn’t offended by that “insult” except maybe how brutally you spelled it, repeatedly, unless you’re referring to defunct limited circulation Russian periodicals.
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More systemic racism ...
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/banking/article245233685.html?
Wells Fargo will pay $7.8 million in back wages to settle accusations from the federal government that it discriminated against tens of thousands of Black and female job applicants, the U.S. Department of Labor said.
Sexism, too -- two for the price of one!
Man, WFC has been such a clusterunnatural carnal knowledge. What a culture they had there.
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Man, you did it again. He’s not the one who even originally said what you found offensive, he edited part of it for a joke.
And you’ve managed to alienate people on both sides of the political spectrum as you’ve gotten increasingly nasty and off topic in your tone. It’s rich that you feel you’re the most knowledgeable about what divides America as you wantonly chuck people into broad brush labeled groups and boxes and everyone who doesn’t stand up and applaud your meandering rants is deemed a sheep or something of that nature. I don’t always agree with Fluffy and some of the other people in here, but the majority of them are fair and will have reasonable conversation and cede to other’s well made points, even if it is counter to their own beliefs. Something you should give a try instead of calling others “Fashists” cause they dare disagree with you
Yep.
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But look at the big picture how we got here. Like any other major catastrophe, it isn't because of only one thing.
I think I'm doing that.
I think our primary difference here is that I see the problems as internal, in that there's something toxic about our law enforcement culture that creates and enables bad cops. You seem to be pointing the finger instead at external issues, like salaries and training and the attitude of the citizenry and politicians.
I think it would be wrong to say it's exclusive one way or the other, and the external issues you cite are real. But unless you revamp the culture, addressing the external issues isn't going to fix the problem. It's like removing the tumor without treating the cancer. You need to do it, but it's not going to heal the patient.
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https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/status/1298344285079838720?s=20
Dear white people. You're not helping.
dont generalize
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Cmon....
My points came from trump's words. They were not speculation on my part.
In a phone interview with Sean Hannity on Fox News during the Democratic National Convention, Trump was asked if he planned to have poll watchers on Election Day with the "ability to monitor, to avoid fraud and cross check whether or not these are registered voters, whether or not there's been identification to know if it's a real vote from a real American?"
Trump said, "We're going to have everything. We're going to have sheriffs and law enforcement and we're going to have, hopefully, U.S. attorneys, and we're going to have everybody, and attorney generals, but it's very hard."
"I can tell you I have the support of the police, the support of the military, the support of the Bikers for Trump – I have the tough people, but they don’t play it tough — until they go to a certain point, and then it would be very bad, very bad," Trump said.
Trump refused to commit to accepting the results of the 2020 election and ensuring a peaceful transition of power in an interview with "Fox News Sunday" host Chris Wallace. In the interview, Trump undermined confidence in the result of the 2020 election by falsely claiming that mail-in ballots are "rigged," and opened the door to later contesting the results if he loses to Democratic nominee Joe Biden.
"In general, not talking about November, are you a good loser?" Wallace asked. "I'm not a good loser, I don't like to lose, I don't lose too often" Trump replied.
"But are you gracious?" Wallace pressed. "You don't know until you see, I think it depends. I think mail-in voting is going to rig the election," Trump said. "I really do."
"But are you suggesting you might not accept the results of the election?" Wallace continued. "I have to see," Trump said.
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dont generalize
Lol.
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Why do many people spend 2 days celebrating first Kobe’s birthday and then “Kobe Day,” while at the same time many people try to excuse the murder of an unarmed black man because he has a criminal record and/or abused a woman? Did Kobe not commit the exact same crime? The difference between Kobe and Blake was Kobe could put a basketball through a rim better and thus had the money to make it go away.
Not in any way celebrating Kobe’s death or saying he deserved to die in a helicopter accident. It’s tragic his kids and wife will have a life without him. But we treat the guy like he was a great human being and then say Jacob Blake was a bad person so what do you expect?
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Pakuni, punish the bad actors. Each and every one of them to the fullest extent of the law. They fd up. Like any other murderer, give them their due process. If found guilty, send them away. Their punishment awaits.
But look at the big picture how we got here. Like any other major catastrophe, it isn't because of only one thing.
Tower, you and Pakuni both make good points, but we need to make sure that this isn't looked at as a 2020 phenomenon. Police have been murdering blacks in America for hundreds of years.
I abhor the violence and looting, but I understand it. Nothing else has stemmed the tides of racial injustice. It is caused by a desperation that has festered for generations.
I just got home from Kenosha - where I lived until I was 25 years old. It broke my heart to see mile after mile of buildings boarded up, cement barriers and large trucks blocking public access on main roads, and a police presence everywhere.
I ache for the country to have a leader who can call on people to be our best selves, who tries to reach our souls calling for peace. But that ship has sailed.
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I think I'm doing that.
I think our primary difference here is that I see the problems as internal, in that there's something toxic about our law enforcement culture that creates and enables bad cops. You seem to be pointing the finger instead at external issues, like salaries and training and the attitude of the citizenry and politicians.
I think it would be wrong to say it's exclusive one way or the other, and the external issues you cite are real. But unless you revamp the culture, addressing the external issues isn't going to fix the problem. It's like removing the tumor without treating the cancer. You need to do it, but it's not going to heal the patient.
Pakuni, we are closer than it may seem. Using your cancer analogy, if you continue to smoke, get high doses of radiation and bathe in sludge, removing tumors won't matter.
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In a Public Religion Research Institute poll, more than 6 in 10 Republicans said that discrimination against whites was just as big a problem as discrimination against people of color.
https://www.prri.org/research/racial-justice-2020-george-floyd/?campaign_id=56&emc=edit_cn_20200825&instance_id=21607&nl=on-politics-with-lisa-lerer®i_id=108420427&segment_id=36909&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Yep, for hundreds of years now, white males just haven't been able to catch a break in America. So much holding them back. And it continues today.
I mean, Jacob Blake and Breonna Taylor had some nerve putting their bodies in front of those cops' bullets ... and shame on George Floyd for refusing to take his neck out from under Derek Chauvin's knee.
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As of nbow, you are 100% correct.
That could change in November. If POTUS uses armed "poll watchers" as he has said he will, and then refuses to leave if he loses (he has said he won't accept the results if he loses), all bets are off. He has said the military, bikers and police will support his actions.
If (and that is a big IF) he keeps his promise, some version of a civil war may break out. If he loses and refuses to leave, that is a terrorist act of overthrowing the gov't. That is a reason to take up arms.
Let's make a wager. IF* Trump loses, I wager he will leave office on the prescribed date. If he doesn't, you win. $1k wager. You in?
That aside, from these statements, it sounds like Trump is taking a pager out of the #resist movement.
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Man, you did it again. He’s not the one who even originally said what you found offensive, he edited part of it for a joke.
And you’ve managed to alienate people on both sides of the political spectrum as you’ve gotten increasingly nasty and off topic in your tone. It’s rich that you feel you’re the most knowledgeable about what divides America as you wantonly chuck people into broad brush labeled groups and boxes and everyone who doesn’t stand up and applaud your meandering rants is deemed a sheep or something of that nature. I don’t always agree with Fluffy and some of the other people in here, but the majority of them are fair and will have reasonable conversation and cede to other’s well made points, even if it is counter to their own beliefs. Something you should give a try instead of calling others “Fashists” cause they dare disagree with you
So what, Miles Davis, BLM
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EM, you may want to hold your fire on the police unions. Lots of them are backing your guy.
For the nth time, this discussion underscores why it is so difficult to find enough quality qualified individuals to be police officers. Because both political sides want to label them and use them as a soccer ball when this stuff goes on. The left goes to racism, the right to unions.
Why in the hell would anyone want to be a cop? Just like teachers. Generally underfunded and underpaid. Blamed by all sides for society's ills.
The average cop is trying to do the right thing and go home at the end of the day.
Don't need to defund them. Need to give them adequate numbers and different, better training.
Tower your points are very good but it's hard for me to find the unions (police, teachers, etc) as part of the solution any more. The police unions consistently protect the bad cops and prevent a culture of individual accountability for one's actions. They do this under the guise of "fairness" but mostly they just have more money than the counterparty so they win. The officer in question should not only not have a job any longer, but he should be behind bars. Only the union and the injustice it perpetuates is preventing that.
The counter-argument I predict is that these guys need the union to "protect" them. If you're not doing anything wrong, you don't need protection.
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You're not offensive. You're just weird. And verbose....very verbose.
I wish. I'm criptic, creative, unique, and have three strong suits. A lot of experience, a body of knowledge and a vocabulary.
When you can't win a useless argument go to insults, character assination, and change of subject.
The topic is Kenosha. Been there three times, once for a tour of the American Motors plant, before we deindustrialized the country and trashed our auto industry.
It was and is a backwater (Hope that didn't offend anyone), then and now.
We have real problems with small cities that were former industrial centers, places like Kenosha.
Off the top of my verbose head are, Gary, Richmond, Hartford, Erie, Harrisburg, Newark, St. Louis, Flint, Youngstown, New Britain, Akron, Syracuse, Trenton, Bridgeport, Birmingham, Rockford, etc.. If something doesn't change they will blow up. There are hundreds of them, and every one has a large minority population.
Think big, think strategically, think the future, if you can.
They have been left behind by corporate America, Wall Street. Wall Street does not care about black people, poor people, sick people ( unless they can take over a hospital and sell stock) or run a insurance scam.
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I wasn’t offended by that “insult” except maybe how brutally you spelled it, repeatedly, unless you’re referring to defunct limited circulation Russian periodicals.
So what, you got the message.
What did so offend you?
Man up, be specific. I can take it.
FACSIST for those offended.
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The counter-argument I predict is that these guys need the union to "protect" them. If you're not doing anything wrong, you don't need protection.
I have seen the opposite in person.
I have also sat in meetings where the chief says that (X) should be fired. The union president agrees the guy is worthless, tells the chief to go through the processes for progressive discipline leading to dismissal. The chief decides to not pursue it. Not because the union wanted to protect the guy. Because they want agreed upon procedures followed.
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Brother Pakuni, of course I would feel the same regardless of who was injured. The Due Process clauses contained in the 5th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America is the basis of my concern. In both cases, the Constitution says, "No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." The 14th Amendment says, "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."
If the circumstances were reversed, I would expect NOTHING different. When a District Attorney brings charges against a citizen, I would expect them to be well-researched and well-documented by provable facts. If it takes time, so be it!
The differences in circumstances is the privilege of being a police officer.
Now, to start with, I get that there is a need to protect police officers from getting charged due to "normal policing duties".
But if I and 2 friends were to hold someone at gunpoint, and shoot them in the back while we though he was reaching for a gun, we'd be arrested, and held in jail. Was it self defense. Maybe - but maybe there was no gun, then I'm f*cked.
The police do it, and they get to go home and have some beers "on leave", hoping there's enough evidence to say "yeah, but he was dangerous".
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The differences in circumstances is the privilege of being a police officer.
Now, to start with, I get that there is a need to protect police officers from getting charged due to "normal policing duties".
But if I and 2 friends were to hold someone at gunpoint, and shoot them in the back while we though he was reaching for a gun, we'd be arrested, and held in jail. Was it self defense. Maybe - but maybe there was no gun, then I'm f*cked.
The police do it, and they get to go home and have some beers "on leave", hoping there's enough evidence to say "yeah, but he was dangerous".
Rocky
The gist of your post is true.
But I’m nonetheless grateful that no family members or anyone I’m close to is a cop. I wouldn’t wish that “privilege” on anyone.
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“Protests shouldn’t turn into looting.”
Sure. You know what else shouldn’t happen? Arrests shouldn’t turn into murders.
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Well said Doc...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhqKda79Lys
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But I’m nonetheless grateful that no family members or anyone I’m close to is a cop. I wouldn’t wish that “privilege” on anyone.
It's certainly a challenging profession. One that straddles the impossible line of peace keeper and rules keeper. Like a HR professional with a gun. Just try not to have had that "oh shoot, I f*cked up" day while discharging their weapon.
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Interesting read on the challenge of bringing cops to justice, not even considering racial issues in policing:
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-police-immunity-scotus/
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Things did not get better overnight.
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I have seen the opposite in person.
I have also sat in meetings where the chief says that (X) should be fired. The union president agrees the guy is worthless, tells the chief to go through the processes for progressive discipline leading to dismissal. The chief decides to not pursue it. Not because the union wanted to protect the guy. Because they want agreed upon procedures followed.
In the federal government everyone is on two year probation.
The selection criteria of cops is flawed.
Job description, bad attitude, tough guy or gal with a chip on your shoulder, not too smart, h.s. football or wresteling, NRA member and fasination with guns and pickup trucks. Perhaps a Harley would help. Skinhead hair cut also helps.
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@espn: “We keep loving this country and this country doesn’t love us back.”
Doc Rivers got emotional while talking about Jacob Blake being shot by police and social injustice. https://twitter.com/espn/status/1298476250709635072/video/1
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I wish. I'm criptic, creative, unique, and have three strong suits. A lot of experience, a body of knowledge and a vocabulary.
When you can't win a useless argument go to insults, character assination, and change of subject.
The topic is Kenosha. Been there three times, once for a tour of the American Motors plant, before we deindustrialized the country and trashed our auto industry.
It was and is a backwater (Hope that didn't offend anyone), then and now.
We have real problems with small cities that were former industrial centers, places like Kenosha.
Off the top of my verbose head are, Gary, Richmond, Hartford, Erie, Harrisburg, Newark, St. Louis, Flint, Youngstown, New Britain, Akron, Syracuse, Trenton, Bridgeport, Birmingham, Rockford, etc.. If something doesn't change they will blow up. There are hundreds of them, and every one has a laege minority population.
Think big, think strategically, think the future, if you can.
They have been left behind by corporate America, Wall Street. Wall Street does not care about black people, poor people, sick people ( unless they can take over a hospital and sell stock) or run a insurance scam.
That’s an accurate and heartbreaking list.
People from St. Louis will argue and tell you Chicago should be included. Hartford and Richmond may not belong but we’re splitting hairs at this point.
Adding Benton Harbor, Toledo, Waterloo IA, Joliet, Memphis... Industry left and then COVID & the response decimated the service economies.
“Learn to code” classes aren’t nearly enough... what is the plan?
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I mean, Kenosha has its issues no doubt, but it is hardly like Rockford or Youngstown. Its growing to the point where it will soon overtake Green Bay as the third largest city in Wisconsin.
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Question: Has there been any official city/police release of information about the sequence of events leading up to and including the shooting itself?
All I've found is community reports.
Any links?
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Question: Has there been any official city/police release of information about the sequence of events leading up to and including the shooting itself?
All I've found is community reports.
Any links?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgV6u-QXYAAADoc?format=jpg&name=medium)
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There's video of both separate shootings, not great Bob.
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Question: Has there been any official city/police release of information about the sequence of events leading up to and including the shooting itself?
All I've found is community reports.
Any links?
This is the police department's only official statement on the Jacob Blake shooting:
Update: Kenosha Officer Involved Shooting
KENOSHA, Wis. – The Wisconsin Department of Justice (DOJ) Division of Criminal Investigation (DCI) is investigating an officer involved shooting (OIS) in Kenosha, Wis. that occurred on the evening of Sunday, August 23, 2020.
The shooting occurred when Kenosha police officers responded to a reported domestic incident in the 2800 block of 40th Street.
Law enforcement immediately provided medical aid to the person who was shot. Flight for Life transported the person to Froedtert Hospital in Milwaukee. The person is in serious condition.
DCI is leading this investigation and is assisted by Wisconsin State Patrol and Kenosha County Sheriff’s Office. All involved law enforcement are fully cooperating with DCI during this investigation. The involved officers have been placed on administrative leave.
DCI is continuing to review evidence and determine the facts of this incident and will turn over investigative reports to a prosecutor following a complete and thorough investigation.
If members of the public have any further information regarding this incident, please contact law enforcement.
When DCI is the lead investigating agency of a shooting involving a law enforcement officer, DCI aims to provide a report of the incident to the prosecutor within 30 days. The prosecutor then reviews the report and makes a determination about what charges, if any, are appropriate. If the prosecutor determines there is no basis for prosecution of the law enforcement officer, DCI will thereafter make the report available to the public.
There has been speculation on social media about the identities of those involved in this incident. The public is advised to await identifying information from an official source.
No additional details are currently available.
Please direct all media inquiries regarding this incident to DOJ.
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Interesting read on the challenge of bringing cops to justice, not even considering racial issues in policing:
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-police-immunity-scotus/
Very interesting, albeit sobering, article. Thanks for posting.
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I mean, Kenosha has its issues no doubt, but it is hardly like Rockford or Youngstown. Its growing to the point where it will soon overtake Green Bay as the third largest city in Wisconsin.
so what...what is happening in kenosha could happen anywhere if the circumstances provided for it. if the unfortunate incident between kenosha police and jacob blake or george floyd in minneapolis for that matter were to have happened in "bumble city" the reactions would be similar. this does not reflect directly on kenosha as there are many many good people there. it has become the new "ground zero" for a political movement and people are coming in from all over the country
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Those are .. very high level "there was an incident" type releases.
To date, all we have is X seconds of video and people talking to the newspaper, maybe Blake was putting his kids in the car, maybe he was tackled, maybe he was tased, maybe it was overheard he was commanded to put down a knife, etc.
It would appear that no part of the officers' story has been released.
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Those are .. very high level "there was an incident" type releases.
To date, all we have is X seconds of video and people talking to the newspaper, maybe Blake was putting his kids in the car, maybe he was tackled, maybe he was tased, maybe it was overheard he was commanded to put down a knife, etc.
It would appear that no part of the officers' story has been released.
I agree, great analysis, and maybe there is a Santa Claus
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There's video of both separate shootings, not great Bob.
And video of the cops asking if the "militia" needed anything. And driving right past the shooter.
Social media has found him, of course. 17 year old kid from IL.
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so what...what is happening in kenosha could happen anywhere if the circumstances provided for it. if the unfortunate incident between kenosha police and jacob blake or george floyd in minneapolis for that matter were to have happened in "bumble city" the reactions would be similar. this does not reflect directly on kenosha as there are many many good people there. it has become the new "ground zero" for a political movement and people are coming in from all over the country
The problem is not the great people in these second tier places, it is the policing and poverty.
Good luck to Kenosh, been there three times, but it happens everwhere, not just Kenosha.
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so what...what is happening in kenosha could happen anywhere if the circumstances provided for it. if the unfortunate incident between kenosha police and jacob blake or george floyd in minneapolis for that matter were to have happened in "bumble city" the reactions would be similar. this does not reflect directly on kenosha as there are many many good people there. it has become the new "ground zero" for a political movement and people are coming in from all over the country
I was simply commenting on vogue's description of it as a "backwater" like Rockford or Youngstown.
Otherwise I agree with you.
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In 2008 there were 120,000 sworn officers
In 2020 we have 800,000 officers.
There are 12,000 local police departments.
The powers that be have been planning for what is playing out for a long time.
America has chosen gated communities, private security, subjugation and intimadation of the minorities, and it will only get worse. The shootings are not accidents, not bad apples, they are the policy.
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I was simply commenting on vogue's description of it as a "backwater" like Rockford or Youngstown.
Otherwise I agree with you.
Backwater, is being kind. They are places that don't have jobs, where corporate america has moved on, where there is not an adequate tax base
We could bicker over which towns are on or off my list. Add Buffalo and Toleto, take off Kenosha and Rockford, what's the difference? We could bicker about the word backwater.
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Backwater, is being kind. They are places that don't have jobs, where corporate america has moved on, where there is not an adequate tax base
We could bicker over which towns are on or off my list. Add Buffalo and Toleto, take off Kenosha and Rockford, what's the difference? We could bicker about the word backwater.
Not bickering. Pointing out that of your supposed strong suits "a lot of experience, a body of knowledge and a vocabulary," you should probably bone up on the second one because you are wayyyy too impressed with the third.
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That’s an accurate and heartbreaking list.
People from St. Louis will argue and tell you Chicago should be included. Hartford and Richmond may not belong but we’re splitting hairs at this point.
Adding Benton Harbor, Toledo, Waterloo IA, Joliet, Memphis... Industry left and then COVID & the response decimated the service economies.
“Learn to code” classes aren’t nearly enough... what is the plan?
I think my point is that the larger cities have a better grip on the whole community. Schools, jobs, churches, housing, transportation, medical care and your point, service industries.
Atlanta, Orlando, Miami, San Francisco, Denver, (Indianapolis could go on either list) Philadelphia, Baltimore, etc..
Without taxes, without resources medium size cities are most at risk.
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And video of the cops asking if the "militia" needed anything. And driving right past the shooter.
Social media has found him, of course. 17 year old kid from IL.
I'll look forward to him being hailed as a hero by some.
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Not bickering. Pointing out that of your supposed strong suits "a lot of experience, a body of knowledge and a vocabulary," you should probably bone up on the second one because you are wayyyy too impressed with the third.
I have know my share of been nowhere, done nothing people. Some are even in very high places.
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Not bickering. Pointing out that of your supposed strong suits "a lot of experience, a body of knowledge and a vocabulary," you should probably bone up on the second one because you are wayyyy too impressed with the third.
He has singlehandedly made this one of the strangest Scoop threads ever.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgV6u-QXYAAADoc?format=jpg&name=medium)
Wait, this is a separate event, 2 fatalities? I guess I need to catch myself up.
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And video of the cops asking if the "militia" needed anything. And driving right past the shooter.
Social media has found him, of course. 17 year old kid from IL.
Supposedly a member of white supremecist militia.
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That’s an accurate and heartbreaking list.
People from St. Louis will argue and tell you Chicago should be included. Hartford and Richmond may not belong but we’re splitting hairs at this point.
Adding Benton Harbor, Toledo, Waterloo IA, Joliet, Memphis... Industry left and then COVID & the response decimated the service economies.
“Learn to code” classes aren’t nearly enough... what is the plan?
What is the plan?
That's an easy one.
More cops, guns, surveillance, another ring of suburbs further out, more jails, lawyers, and domination.
Add more gaslighting, mock the press, fear mongering, facial recognition, tracking, and metal detectors and you have a start.
The plan is a police state.
That's why the military equipment, and weapons.
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Wait, this is a separate event, 2 fatalities? I guess I need to catch myself up.
Yes. Just google "Kyle Rittenhouse"
And I must admit that I got a chuckle out of the idea that you are supposed to call Crime Stoppers about this.
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Not bickering. Pointing out that of your supposed strong suits "a lot of experience, a body of knowledge and a vocabulary," you should probably bone up on the second one because you are wayyyy too impressed with the third.
I won't go for the bait.
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Supposedly a member of white supremecist militia.
Kenosha Guard. Their facebook group is wide open to see. Check it out
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Just curious, if this was your community, and the protesters were marching outside your business and there were already local businesses burned down within your community, what would you do?
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Just curious, if this was your community, and the protesters were marching outside your business and there were already local businesses burned down within your community, what would you do?
Hang a BLM sign, install security cams, make sure I've paid my insurance. Maybe stay in there with a hurl and a paintball gun with speed adjusted to be a legit deterrent.
Oh and what rocky said about refreshments. I just like to have backup plans for unaffiliated rioters.
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Just curious, if this was your community, and the protesters were marching outside your business and there were already local businesses burned down within your community, what would you do?
Hang a Black Lives Matter sign in the window and offer them refreshments.
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Jesus vogue be going full liberal chicos atm.
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Just curious, if this was your community, and the protesters were marching outside your business and there were already local businesses burned down within your community, what would you do?
I'd move to the cushy outer ring of suburbs and start over, sort of like an emigrant.
This has been building for 50 freekin years, why hadn't you noticed?
The handwriting/graffiti has been on the wall for decades.
The difference between now and the riots in 1968 is basically the guns and tactics.
The government is betting that force will win. Unfortunatly they are probably right. We shall see, but it could be at a horrible cost.
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Hang a BLM sign, install security cams, make sure I've paid my insurance. Maybe stay in there with a hurl and a paintball gun with speed adjusted to be a legit deterrent.
Oh and what rocky said about refreshments. I just like to have backup plans for unaffiliated rioters.
Those are good suggestions.
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Hang a BLM sign, install security cams, make sure I've paid my insurance. Maybe stay in there with a hurl and a paintball gun with speed adjusted to be a legit deterrent.
Oh and what rocky said about refreshments. I just like to have backup plans for unaffiliated rioters.
Yeah, you beat me by a few seconds. Honestly, I think it would be important to show a presence. a dark/boarded up business is ripe for vandalism/looting. Be supportive of the cause, and at the same time maybe win some new future customers.
I mean, MUScoop has people rage quitting because they can't support BLM patches or a heartfelt stand by Doc Rivers. Racial equity is only a political issue if you're racist.
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Hang a Black Lives Matter sign in the window and offer them refreshments.
You can be on the right side of history or not.
I have no problem killing somebody over my life, but property, no way.
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I was told a long time ago that the reason we have courts, judges, and lawyers is so people don't go around taking the law into their own hands and start killing each other.
It was called civility.
The courts, judges, and lawyers have failed us.
The result of failed deplomacy and politics is war.
The people in the streets, on both sides, are at war. It makes me very sad.
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Yes. Just google "Kyle Rittenhouse"
And I must admit that I got a chuckle out of the idea that you are supposed to call Crime Stoppers about this.
I'm confused. How is this related to Blake?
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Vogue: It appears this has been something that has bothered you for a long time. You must also have some ideas of a solution. Practical measure to bring peace.
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I'm confused. How is this related to Blake?
It's related to the protests/riots in Kenosha as a result of police officers shooting Mr Blake.
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It's related to the protests/riots in Kenosha as a result of police officers shooting Mr Blake.
https://www.dailydot.com/debug/2-killed-by-vigilante-wisconsin/
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fwiw-madison 365 reported that someone did call the police on blake. a female called and stated that blake was at her home and was not supposed to be. he had taken her keys and was refusing to give them back. there was a warrant out for his arrest.
just saying because i read on here somewhere that he was just there "breaking up a fight" or something. don't know about you guys, but if police pull me over, i stop. if they tell me to get on the ground and hands out or behind my back, i do whatever it is they order. can always figure out later who was right or wrong
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can always figure out later who was right or wrong
From personal experience, this is not always true.
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fwiw-madison 365 reported that someone did call the police on blake. a female called and stated that blake was at her home and was not supposed to be. he had taken her keys and was refusing to give them back. there was a warrant out for his arrest.
just saying because i read on here somewhere that he was just there "breaking up a fight" or something. don't know about you guys, but if police pull me over, i stop. if they tell me to get on the ground and hands out or behind my back, i do whatever it is they order. can always figure out later who was right or wrong
Well, he definitely got what he deserved then
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Vogue: It appears this has been something that has bothered you for a long time. You must also have some ideas of a solution. Practical measure to bring peace.
NCMUFan,
Yes it has because it has been a very long time in coming.
I have lots of answers, but sadly not about this.
Prayer and the leadership of the black church is my best hope.
When Charlottesville happened my friends in Newark forgave the shooter. I had my justifiable anger going full bore. They just forgave.
On questions like this one my answer is usually that it will take generational change.
We will see if we have had generational change from 1968 or not.
I'm sure the Pentagon is working the issue 24-7. They may have some ideas, I don't.
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fwiw-madison 365 reported that someone did call the police on blake. a female called and stated that blake was at her home and was not supposed to be. he had taken her keys and was refusing to give them back. there was a warrant out for his arrest.
just saying because i read on here somewhere that he was just there "breaking up a fight" or something. don't know about you guys, but if police pull me over, i stop. if they tell me to get on the ground and hands out or behind my back, i do whatever it is they order. can always figure out later who was right or wrong
Ah yes. We have entered the "blaming the guy who got shot" stage of this nonsense.
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Ah yes. We have entered the "blaming the guy who got shot" stage of this nonsense.
Good legal training, the victim is guilty.
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Ah yes. We have entered the "blaming the guy who got shot" stage of this nonsense.
When it's a black guy. And always the same guy doing the blaming.
Eng said it best.
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Any MUScoopers from Kenosha that would like to share what is happening there?
Personally, I would like to hear it from the residents not media.
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fwiw-madison 365 reported that someone did call the police on blake. a female called and stated that blake was at her home and was not supposed to be. he had taken her keys and was refusing to give them back. there was a warrant out for his arrest.
just saying because i read on here somewhere that he was just there "breaking up a fight" or something. don't know about you guys, but if police pull me over, i stop. if they tell me to get on the ground and hands out or behind my back, i do whatever it is they order. can always figure out later who was right or wrong
Not surprised you would post this. Surprised it took you so long to post something like this.
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fwiw-madison 365 reported that someone did call the police on blake. a female called and stated that blake was at her home and was not supposed to be. he had taken her keys and was refusing to give them back. there was a warrant out for his arrest.
just saying because i read on here somewhere that he was just there "breaking up a fight" or something. don't know about you guys, but if police pull me over, i stop. if they tell me to get on the ground and hands out or behind my back, i do whatever it is they order. can always figure out later who was right or wrong
Yes. You as a white man who has never had to deal with being racially profiled find it easy to follow what "authority" tells you to do.
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fwiw-madison 365 reported that someone did call the police on blake. a female called and stated that blake was at her home and was not supposed to be. he had taken her keys and was refusing to give them back. there was a warrant out for his arrest.
Convenient that you left out the second part of the call:
"About a minute after the initial call, the dispatcher indicated that Blake was leaving the premises, and that the woman who had initially called had hung up."
https://madison365.com/kenohsa-police-opened-fire-less-than-5-minutes-after-being-called-scanner-audio/
Also, it only took officers 4+ minutes to go from call to shots fired! Impressive KPD. Way to de-escalate.
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don't know about you guys, but if police pull me over, i stop. if they tell me to get on the ground and hands out or behind my back, i do whatever it is they order. can always figure out later who was right or wrong
LOL, how many times have you been pulled over, told to get on the ground, and put your hands behind your back?
All of this "what I would do" from white people who have never actually experienced the terror of a cop with a gun at your head is pretty choice.
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just saying because i read on here somewhere that he was just there "breaking up a fight" or something.
Lets also add that the breaking up a fight was from witnesses - who may be more reliable than the person that called the police. The woman that called the police also became uncooperative with them... "The dispatcher tells officers that the woman now says Blake is trying to leave. The dispatcher tries to get a description of Blake’s vehicle but she tells officers that the woman has become uncooperative, and the type of vehicle or what state it’s registered in are unknown."
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/08/25/kenosha-police-shot-jacob-blake-3-minutes-after-arrival-audio-reveals/5628076002/
What I'll say is news from the original accounts, is that this appeared to occur at his own house? There is more to the story, but I still see nothing that would require shooting him 7 times.
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https://www.dailydot.com/debug/2-killed-by-vigilante-wisconsin/
It's on CNN now. White Militiaman.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/26/us/kenosha-wisconsin-wednesday-shooting/index.html
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Any MUScoopers from Kenosha that would like to share what is happening there?
Personally, I would like to hear it from the residents not media.
I'll try to get back down there today. Yesterday afternoon when I was downtown, the activity was like any normal day. Plenty of people walking, lots of bikers, decent amount of traffic. What was surreal is that every 1st floor window on the main drag was boarded, also many 2nd and 3rd floor windows as well. Highway 32 (Sheridan Road), near downtown was impassable. Cement barriers and large trucks blocked all entry near the downtown area.
At the time I was there, protests were already forming on the west side maybe 4-5 miles from downtown) and moving toward downtown. Talked to a couple people I knew who were marching and it was pretty peaceful for a while before it got ugly. On the way downtown, there was major damage and fires set in the Uptown area (center of town).
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I'll try to get back down there today. Yesterday afternoon when I was downtown, the activity was like any normal day. Plenty of people walking, lots of bikers, decent amount of traffic. What was surreal is that every 1st floor window on the main drag was boarded, also many 2nd and 3rd floor windows as well. Highway 32 (Sheridan Road), near downtown was impassable. Cement barriers and large trucks blocked all entry near the downtown area.
At the time I was there, protests were already forming on the west side maybe 4-5 miles from downtown) and moving toward downtown. Talked to a couple people I knew who were marching and it was pretty peaceful for a while before it got ugly. On the way downtown, there was major damage and fires set in the Uptown area (center of town).
Co-worker of mine grew up in Kenosha and his sales territory encompasses downtown. He sent pics on Monday morning of the damage. Rows of burned out cars and damaged storefronts.
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What the h@ll kind of nation do we live in that openly allows a 17 year old kid to go out into a volatile situation fully armed?
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fwiw-madison 365 reported that someone did call the police on blake. a female called and stated that blake was at her home and was not supposed to be. he had taken her keys and was refusing to give them back. there was a warrant out for his arrest.
just saying because i read on here somewhere that he was just there "breaking up a fight" or something. don't know about you guys, but if police pull me over, i stop. if they tell me to get on the ground and hands out or behind my back, i do whatever it is they order. can always figure out later who was right or wrong
So desperate to have it be the Black guy’s fault. Wow.
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Co-worker of mine grew up in Kenosha and his sales territory encompasses downtown. He sent pics on Monday morning of the damage. Rows of burned out cars and damaged storefronts.
Most likely on the outskirts of downtown. The main drag from the Boathouse to the Library -about a 12 block stretch - was boarded but undamaged.
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I'll try to get back down there today. Yesterday afternoon when I was downtown, the activity was like any normal day. Plenty of people walking, lots of bikers, decent amount of traffic. What was surreal is that every 1st floor window on the main drag was boarded, also many 2nd and 3rd floor windows as well. Highway 32 (Sheridan Road), near downtown was impassable. Cement barriers and large trucks blocked all entry near the downtown area.
At the time I was there, protests were already forming on the west side maybe 4-5 miles from downtown) and moving toward downtown. Talked to a couple people I knew who were marching and it was pretty peaceful for a while before it got ugly. On the way downtown, there was major damage and fires set in the Uptown area (center of town).
Thanks Jockey. Just curious, were you in Kenosha for the protests, family, business?
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What the h@ll kind of nation do we live in that openly allows a 17 year old kid to go out into a volatile situation fully armed?
This part of it is also sad to me. It appears this kid was raised with guns, fed this ideology, and no adults intervened.
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Robin Vos is an evil man who is probably running for governor
https://twitter.com/MollyBeck/status/1298662169576222720?s=19
(https://twitter.com/MollyBeck/status/1298662169576222720?s=19)
WI GOP not interested in facts (National Guard, ATF and FBI all on the ground) or action. As with COVID, they are gleeful when people - and mostly PoC - die in this state so they can tag it to Evers.
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LOL, how many times have you been pulled over, told to get on the ground, and put your hands behind your back?
All of this "what I would do" from white people who have never actually experienced the terror of a cop with a gun at your head is pretty choice.
I’ve been forced to the ground by a suburban police officer with my friends, wrong place wrong time, at night when they were looking for recent mailbox vandalism and decided we seemed likely. Flashlight in faces, yelling for compliance, call for back up as another car rolls up. We had done nothing wrong, and it was still unnatural carnal knowledgeing terrifying.
I’ve mentioned before walking with my buddy, who is AA, in a nicer neighborhood after leaving the bars, cops roll up, pop out and grab him and have him against a car before even asking for ID, pushing me aside and telling me “go the unnatural carnal knowledge home or it’s gonna be a problem”, cause he “fit the description” for a recent armed robbery (cause most robberies are done in jeans, button downs, and lace ups). They were in the process of cuffing him and putting him in the squad car before the radio chirped to let them now they had apprehended the actual suspect.
Acting like every encounter with the police, especially when they are agitated/annoyed/etc.. due to any number of factors is as casual and placid as a traffic stop, with a driver with a spotless record, is laughably naive. I’ve had many great encounters with police, but I’ve had a few that made me sweat, and that’s as a reasonably affluent white male, I can only imagine how it must be for other demos.
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Yes. Just google "Kyle Rittenhouse"
And I must admit that I got a chuckle out of the idea that you are supposed to call Crime Stoppers about this.
well, with the "abolish the police crowd" being so loud it's the future.
"41 shots
Lena gets her son ready for school
She says, "On these streets, Charles
You've got to understand the rules
If an officer stops you
Promise me you'll always be polite
And that you'll never ever run away
Promise Mama, you'll keep your hands in sight"
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Robin Vos is an evil man who is probably running for governor
https://twitter.com/MollyBeck/status/1298662169576222720?s=19
(https://twitter.com/MollyBeck/status/1298662169576222720?s=19)
WI GOP not interested in facts (National Guard, ATF and FBI all on the ground) or action. As with COVID, they are gleeful when people - and mostly PoC - die in this state so they can tag it to Evers.
The quality of our political discourse has gotten so awful. What does a statement like this do? I mean, I know what they want to accomplish, but how is this in any way productive? Does the ends justify the means?
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Any MUScoopers from Kenosha that would like to share what is happening there?
Personally, I would like to hear it from the residents not media.
My office is blocks away, I've been here everyday this week. The majority of our employees are from Kenosha.
What would you like to know?
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My office is blocks away, I've been here everyday this week. The majority of our employees are from Kenosha.
What would you like to know?
Whereabouts is your office located? What part of town?
Last place I lived in Kenosha was 24th and Roosevelt right next to where all the fires were.
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Most likely on the outskirts of downtown. The main drag from the Boathouse to the Library -about a 12 block stretch - was boarded but undamaged.
I think so. Got a pic of the Festival Foods entrance being blocked by a semi. If I remember correctly, that’s on the east side of town
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Whereabouts is your office located? What part of town?
Last place I lived in Kenosha was 24th and Roosevelt right next to where all the fires were.
52nd, between Green Bay and Sheridan.
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The quality of our political discourse has gotten so awful. What does a statement like this do? I mean, I know what they want to accomplish, but how is this in any way productive? Does the ends justify the means?
We are now in a zero-sum trench warfare scenario where there is zero incentive for anyone to work with the other side.
Tangent: I am reading this book now, and it is excellent. I highly recommend it to everyone who has concerns about the future of our country: https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Two-Party-Doom-Loop-Multiparty/dp/0190913851
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I hate that I let anything surprise me anymore, but I truly cannot believe that there is a large group of people defending Kyle Rittenhouse's actions.
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I hate that I let anything surprise me anymore, but I truly cannot believe that there is a large group of people defending Kyle Rittenhouse's actions.
Depends on which video you watch. One shows only him being attacked, and in that situation alone, would have the right to open fire.
The other, which shows him actually murder someone, tells the whole story.
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Depends on which video you watch. One shows only him being attacked, and in that situation alone, would have the right to open fire.
The other, which shows him actually murder someone, tells the whole story.
Right, I’ve seen people defending the video of him shooting the guy in the chest as self defense, which I sort of get in a vacuum as he was being attacked in the video...except that he was being attacked cause he had already shot somebody. On top of the fact that he crossed state lines with an assault rifle looking for a violence.
What I never get is that you could be super anti-protests, Blue Lives Matter, all of that...but not defend this dude cause he makes your “tribe” look terrible. People feel the need to snap defend dumb stuff cause the person shared some sort of justified belief with them.
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Any MUScoopers from Kenosha that would like to share what is happening there?
Personally, I would like to hear it from the residents not media.
I live in Mt Pleasant and work at St. Catherine's HS in Racine. My wife works in Kenosha about two miles west from last night's incident.
She has been sent home early from work each of the last two days (today at 3pm) and the office opened later than normal. She said businesses and strip malls all the way out to Green Bay road are boarded up. That's a pretty good distance from downtown.
As for me, I haven't seen much outside of what I've seen on social media. I did have a student who works in Kenosha tell me she went to Monday's protests and was tear-gassed outside the courthouse.
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Thanks Jockey & Retire0:
K-Town is my hometown but have lived elsewhere for the past 33 years.
Just wanted hometown perspectives on what is happening.
Can't say how sad I am.
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Kenosha Police Chief giving an interview saying "if these people would have only followed curfew...."
Not a good look.
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Kenosha Police Chief giving an interview saying "if these people would have only followed curfew...."
Not a good look.
Also said the shooter came up from Illinois to "resolve whatever conflict was in place".
His whole statement was a disaster.
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Ah yes. We have entered the "blaming the guy who got shot" stage of this nonsense.
Was there ever a doubt that was where that particular poster would go?
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What the h@ll kind of nation do we live in that openly allows a 17 year old kid to go out into a volatile situation fully armed?
Wayne says hi.
(https://media.salon.com/2013/04/lapierre_happy.jpg)
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The topic is Kenosha. Been there three times, once for a tour of the American Motors plant, before we deindustrialized the country and trashed our auto industry. It was and is a backwater (Hope that didn't offend anyone), then and now.
We have real problems with small cities that were former industrial centers, places like Kenosha.
Off the top of my verbose head are, Gary, Richmond, Hartford, Erie, Harrisburg, Newark, St. Louis, Flint, Youngstown, New Britain, Akron, Syracuse, Trenton, Bridgeport, Birmingham, Rockford, etc.. If something doesn't change they will blow up. There are hundreds of them, and every one has a large minority population.
Think big, think strategically, think the future, if you can.
They have been left behind by corporate America, Wall Street. Wall Street does not care about black people, poor people, sick people ( unless they can take over a hospital and sell stock) or run a insurance scam.
I thought this was one of the more intelligent comments in this entire thread. It shows an understanding of what is happening in way too many locales throughout America and it's at the root of the income equality many perceive to be a huge underlying issue in the United States.
In the late 1970s and early 1980s, I lived in Rock Island, IL (the Quad Cities). At that time, the region was fueled by the "blue collar dream" where African-American, Caucasian and Hispanic folks worked at UAW-represented ag-imp and construction implement plants, or at firms (like the Rock Island Lines) that supported the ag-imp industry. In four short years, a variety of management mistakes, a nasty recession, labor strife, automation and off-shoring led to unemployment rates that increased from about 3.9 percent to nearly 30 percent.
Today, the area still suffers from deindustrialization. The training that was promised to replace manufacturing with "new economy" jobs failed to deliver. People that made $30,000 plus a year in 1979 probably never made that much again. Their children either left the area or held jobs that paid a fraction in real terms of what their parents or grandparents made. The problems that led to an industrial exodus from the Quad Cities and left the area unable to replace what left still exist today.
As Brother Vogue points out, there are a lot of other communities like the Quad Cities out there. The biggest single problem on the South Side of Chicago has been the loss of industrial jobs over the last 50 years. Companies like Wisconsin Steel, Sears, Pullman, US Steel, Armour, Swift and a host of others declared bankruptcy or closed antiquated plants. Even companies like Ford Motor, which still manufacturers automobiles on Torrance Avenue, needs far fewer persons to assemble cars than they once did.
If we want to improve the plight of African Americans, we have to begin by encouraging investment in places like Flint, the Quad Cities, Chicago, St. Louis and elsewhere. The investment has to be real and the opportunity such that those who've experienced poverty and inequality can hold jobs and grow their way back into the middle class. We've tried for more than 50 years and I can't say we have come close to solving this problem.
I know nobody wants to acknowledge this, but before the Covid-19 pandemic, the "Great Satan", as many people view him, had our country headed in this direction. Unemployment in African-American communities was at its lowest level in recorded history. Real wages were rising. The efforts to put tariffs on imported goods was in no small measure designed to level the playing field and ensure our plants and our people were treated fairly. I hope that whomever is elected this fall continues this effort.
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I’ve been forced to the ground by a suburban police officer with my friends, wrong place wrong time, at night when they were looking for recent mailbox vandalism and decided we seemed likely. Flashlight in faces, yelling for compliance, call for back up as another car rolls up. We had done nothing wrong, and it was still unnatural carnal knowledgeing terrifying.
I’ve mentioned before walking with my buddy, who is AA, in a nicer neighborhood after leaving the bars, cops roll up, pop out and grab him and have him against a car before even asking for ID, pushing me aside and telling me “go the unnatural carnal knowledge home or it’s gonna be a problem”, cause he “fit the description” for a recent armed robbery (cause most robberies are done in jeans, button downs, and lace ups). They were in the process of cuffing him and putting him in the squad car before the radio chirped to let them now they had apprehended the actual suspect.
Acting like every encounter with the police, especially when they are agitated/annoyed/etc.. due to any number of factors is as casual and placid as a traffic stop, with a driver with a spotless record, is laughably naive. I’ve had many great encounters with police, but I’ve had a few that made me sweat, and that’s as a reasonably affluent white male, I can only imagine how it must be for other demos.
Same in Burlington Wisconsin. Was walking from the camp I was working at into town, when from behind me I heard “stop, turn around with your hands up” Cop already had his gun pointed at me before I even turned around. All because I matched a description of “dark clothing”
Proceeded to attempt to gaslight me back at camp saying things like “I know you did it” and “just admit it now so everything is easier and you’ll get in less trouble”
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I’ve been forced to the ground by a suburban police officer with my friends, wrong place wrong time, at night when they were looking for recent mailbox vandalism and decided we seemed likely. Flashlight in faces, yelling for compliance, call for back up as another car rolls up. We had done nothing wrong, and it was still unnatural carnal knowledgeing terrifying.
I’ve mentioned before walking with my buddy, who is AA, in a nicer neighborhood after leaving the bars, cops roll up, pop out and grab him and have him against a car before even asking for ID, pushing me aside and telling me “go the unnatural carnal knowledge home or it’s gonna be a problem”, cause he “fit the description” for a recent armed robbery (cause most robberies are done in jeans, button downs, and lace ups). They were in the process of cuffing him and putting him in the squad car before the radio chirped to let them now they had apprehended the actual suspect.
Acting like every encounter with the police, especially when they are agitated/annoyed/etc.. due to any number of factors is as casual and placid as a traffic stop, with a driver with a spotless record, is laughably naive. I’ve had many great encounters with police, but I’ve had a few that made me sweat, and that’s as a reasonably affluent white male, I can only imagine how it must be for other demos.
Thanks for sharing this, Wags. Scary stuff.
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Bucks boycotting playoff game and Brewers meeting to discuss their game vs. Reds...
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I thought this was one of the more intelligent comments in this entire thread. It shows an understanding of what is happening in way too many locales throughout America and it's at the root of the income equality many perceive to be a huge underlying issue in the United States.
In the late 1970s and early 1980s, I lived in Rock Island, IL (the Quad Cities). At that time, the region was fueled by the "blue collar dream" where African-American, Caucasian and Hispanic folks worked at UAW-represented ag-imp and construction implement plants, or at firms (like the Rock Island Lines) that supported the ag-imp industry. In four short years, a variety of management mistakes, a nasty recession, labor strife, automation and off-shoring led to unemployment rates that increased from about 3.9 percent to nearly 30 percent.
Today, the area still suffers from deindustrialization. The training that was promised to replace manufacturing with "new economy" jobs failed to deliver. People that made $30,000 plus a year in 1979 probably never made that much again. Their children either left the area or held jobs that paid a fraction in real terms of what their parents or grandparents made. The problems that led to an industrial exodus from the Quad Cities and left the area unable to replace what left still exist today.
As Brother Vogue points out, there are a lot of other communities like the Quad Cities out there. The biggest single problem on the South Side of Chicago has been the loss of industrial jobs over the last 50 years. Companies like Wisconsin Steel, Sears, Pullman, US Steel, Armour, Swift and a host of others declared bankruptcy or closed antiquated plants. Even companies like Ford Motor, which still manufacturers automobiles on Torrance Avenue, needs far fewer persons to assemble cars than they once did.
If we want to improve the plight of African Americans, we have to begin by encouraging investment in places like Flint, the Quad Cities, Chicago, St. Louis and elsewhere. The investment has to be real and the opportunity such that those who've experienced poverty and inequality can hold jobs and grow their way back into the middle class. We've tried for more than 50 years and I can't say we have come close to solving this problem.
I know nobody wants to acknowledge this, but before the Covid-19 pandemic, the "Great Satan", as many people view him, had our country headed in this direction. Unemployment in African-American communities was at its lowest level in recorded history. Real wages were rising. The efforts to put tariffs on imported goods was in no small measure designed to level the playing field and ensure our plants and our people were treated fairly. I hope that whomever is elected this fall continues this effort.
People can have the Kenosha thread back in one second.
Fact Check:
Black Unemployment went from 17% to 8% under Obama. I must have missed this in your post. The current administration didn't even improve it a third of that. Then Under President Pandemic, it rose back to 17%.
The regurgitation of false facts, misleading statements, and or straight lies requires daily point by point correction.
I'm sure all of the money will just trickle down though. Oh look here... In the news this week, Jeff Bezos, hitting the $200 billion net worth. Research shows he has donated, wait for it, less than 0.2 % of his net worth to charity and refused the giving pledge when asked. But I digress.
-
I thought this was one of the more intelligent comments in this entire thread. It shows an understanding of what is happening in way too many locales throughout America and it's at the root of the income equality many perceive to be a huge underlying issue in the United States.
In the late 1970s and early 1980s, I lived in Rock Island, IL (the Quad Cities). At that time, the region was fueled by the "blue collar dream" where African-American, Caucasian and Hispanic folks worked at UAW-represented ag-imp and construction implement plants, or at firms (like the Rock Island Lines) that supported the ag-imp industry. In four short years, a variety of management mistakes, a nasty recession, labor strife, automation and off-shoring led to unemployment rates that increased from about 3.9 percent to nearly 30 percent.
Today, the area still suffers from deindustrialization. The training that was promised to replace manufacturing with "new economy" jobs failed to deliver. People that made $30,000 plus a year in 1979 probably never made that much again. Their children either left the area or held jobs that paid a fraction in real terms of what their parents or grandparents made. The problems that led to an industrial exodus from the Quad Cities and left the area unable to replace what left still exist today.
As Brother Vogue points out, there are a lot of other communities like the Quad Cities out there. The biggest single problem on the South Side of Chicago has been the loss of industrial jobs over the last 50 years. Companies like Wisconsin Steel, Sears, Pullman, US Steel, Armour, Swift and a host of others declared bankruptcy or closed antiquated plants. Even companies like Ford Motor, which still manufacturers automobiles on Torrance Avenue, needs far fewer persons to assemble cars than they once did.
If we want to improve the plight of African Americans, we have to begin by encouraging investment in places like Flint, the Quad Cities, Chicago, St. Louis and elsewhere. The investment has to be real and the opportunity such that those who've experienced poverty and inequality can hold jobs and grow their way back into the middle class. We've tried for more than 50 years and I can't say we have come close to solving this problem.
I know nobody wants to acknowledge this, but before the Covid-19 pandemic, the "Great Satan", as many people view him, had our country headed in this direction. Unemployment in African-American communities was at its lowest level in recorded history. Real wages were rising. The efforts to put tariffs on imported goods was in no small measure designed to level the playing field and ensure our plants and our people were treated fairly. I hope that whomever is elected this fall continues this effort.
We agree, and I'll add to the list mergers & acquistions. I was in Rockford at Sunstrand the day Raytheon baught them. It was like someone had done a mass shooting. The merger or acquisition, can't remember which, meant no more h.r., legal, accounting, finance, p.r., B.O.D., and top management. People were so distraught they were bringing me whistle blower stuff.
I know it's capitalism, but it is capitalisms fatal flaw. The system has to take care of everyone for the common good or we all go down together. Putting income inequality into the solution would be a very good idea.
Joe Stiglitz says it all.
I have worked on industrial base assessments and the situation is bleak. Ship yards, steel mills, rare earths, heat treating, electronics, forgings, bearings, you name it, mostly or all gone.
Can the service economy pick up the slack? UPS, Prime, SEARS home service, and joe the plumber.
Does Kenosha have enough service jobs for the famlies who moved from the south to work in the factories of Kenosha?
How many financial advisors, bankers, accountants, lawyers, small business franchisees can the economy support?
O.K. the demonstrators at night are not BLM, then who are they?
Unemployed youth, angry young men, they are not the entitled few watching the convention.
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People can have the Kenosha thread back in one second.
Fact Check:
Black Unemployment went from 17% to 8% under Obama. I must have missed this in your post. The current administration didn't even improve it a third of that. Then Under President Pandemic, it rose back to 17%.
The regurgitation of false facts, misleading statements, and or straight lies requires daily point by point correction.
I'm sure all of the money will just trickle down though. Oh look here... In the news this week, Jeff Bezos, hitting the $200 billion net worth. Research shows he has donated, wait for it, less than 0.2 % of his net worth to charity and refused the giving pledge when asked. But I digress.
I'm less concerned about "who" did what and more about how we move forward. Heck, I'll give credit to everyone, but let's get down to work and put some of Mr. Bezos' net worth to work with investments in communities that need it.
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This part of it is also sad to me. It appears this kid was raised with guns, fed this ideology, and no adults intervened.
The adults are just like the kid.
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I'm less concerned about "who" did what and more about how we move forward. Heck, I'll give credit to everyone, but let's get down to work and put some of Mr. Bezos' net worth to work with investments in communities that need it.
I'm down.
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I’ve been forced to the ground by a suburban police officer with my friends, wrong place wrong time, at night when they were looking for recent mailbox vandalism and decided we seemed likely. Flashlight in faces, yelling for compliance, call for back up as another car rolls up. We had done nothing wrong, and it was still unnatural carnal knowledgeing terrifying.
I’ve mentioned before walking with my buddy, who is AA, in a nicer neighborhood after leaving the bars, cops roll up, pop out and grab him and have him against a car before even asking for ID, pushing me aside and telling me “go the unnatural carnal knowledge home or it’s gonna be a problem”, cause he “fit the description” for a recent armed robbery (cause most robberies are done in jeans, button downs, and lace ups). They were in the process of cuffing him and putting him in the squad car before the radio chirped to let them now they had apprehended the actual suspect.
Acting like every encounter with the police, especially when they are agitated/annoyed/etc.. due to any number of factors is as casual and placid as a traffic stop, with a driver with a spotless record, is laughably naive. I’ve had many great encounters with police, but I’ve had a few that made me sweat, and that’s as a reasonably affluent white male, I can only imagine how it must be for other demos.
Thats how they are trained and recruted.
Saw Kenosha chief today on t.v.. Could not have been a nicer man. Full of compashion, understanding, a P.R. mans ideal spokesperson.
So what.
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Depends on which video you watch. One shows only him being attacked, and in that situation alone, would have the right to open fire.
The other, which shows him actually murder someone, tells the whole story.
That is one solution.
Another is for the mob, FOX loves that word, to come armed tonight.
That is no solution.
Just a thought.
Wisconsin is sending police, state police, National Guard from all over the state and from surrounding states. That is very good.
What if there are riots in Madison, Mikwaukee, Green Bay, Appleton, and Janesville tonight?
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I'm less concerned about "who" did what and more about how we move forward. Heck, I'll give credit to everyone, but let's get down to work and put some of Mr. Bezos' net worth to work with investments in communities that need it.
I am down for the Wealth Tax as well. Count me in on that, because he hasn’t given squat.
I am not the one who praised the current President and listed examples of things where he has things headed in the right direction when he doesn’t and others did. You literally passed off an accomplishment of his predecessor as his. When confronted and corrected by facts, you say you don’t care about credit. You cared enough in your original post to mention it. And facts do matter. Having qualified people in qualified positions matters, ...quite a bit actually.
What are the specific police reforms you’d like to see to improve the lives of Black and Minority people?
What are your specific gun reforms as well?
And this can be Kenosha related, as it is the Kenosha thread. 👍
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Same in Burlington Wisconsin. Was walking from the camp I was working at into town, when from behind me I heard “stop, turn around with your hands up” Cop already had his gun pointed at me before I even turned around. All because I matched a description of “dark clothing”
Proceeded to attempt to gaslight me back at camp saying things like “I know you did it” and “just admit it now so everything is easier and you’ll get in less trouble”
Thats how they are trained, that is how they are recruted.
Do you notice a similarity with all these stories?
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People can have the Kenosha thread back in one second.
Fact Check:
Black Unemployment went from 17% to 8% under Obama. I must have missed this in your post. The current administration didn't even improve it a third of that. Then Under President Pandemic, it rose back to 17%.
The regurgitation of false facts, misleading statements, and or straight lies requires daily point by point correction.
I'm sure all of the money will just trickle down though. Oh look here... In the news this week, Jeff Bezos, hitting the $200 billion net worth. Research shows he has donated, wait for it, less than 0.2 % of his net worth to charity and refused the giving pledge when asked. But I digress.
He needs to be motivated.
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I'm less concerned about "who" did what and more about how we move forward. Heck, I'll give credit to everyone, but let's get down to work and put some of Mr. Bezos' net worth to work with investments in communities that need it.
They argue trickle down nonsence.
And most of them have nothing to trickle down except their leg. Sorry.
I don't know Bezos, but I'd bet his assets are in boats, planes, houses, heavy metal cars, metals, T bills, and after the first trickle, nothing trickles down.
I misspoke, a few boats, planes, homes, and cars.
I could be wrong, as I said, I don't know anything about the man.
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Have you been to Palm Beach?
I have many times.
Polite society has rejected Mr. T. so he had to build his personal club.
Have you been to Bedminster?
I live a few miles from his golf club, same story.
R's and D's can't stand him.
One half doesn't know how the other half lives.
One half doesn't know how the 1% live.
The people of Kenosha, police, demonstrators, honest hard working citizens don't have a clue.
They will risk their lives tonight and it will mean nothing to the powerful.
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Info coming out on the shooter from Antioch. Exactly who you'd expect him to be.
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He needs to be motivated.
I am all for people making money, good money, even big money. 👍
But as I posted recently in a different thread, CEO’s now make 320 times more than the typical worker.
Maybe take some of hose billions in wealthy corporate stimulus and actually give it directly to those who need it most during a Pandemic. And perhaps, also use some of that $ for early childhood education, healthcare, training and development etc in places such as Kenosha, and many other places USA. Feel free to use some to educate, train, and recruit police departments that that understand community policing and all that it entails.
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I'm less concerned about "who" did what and more about how we move forward. Heck, I'll give credit to everyone, but let's get down to work and put some of Mr. Bezos' net worth to work with investments in communities that need it.
Bingo.
Too much wealth is concentrated in the hands of too few people...all of whom could give a few hundred million to the common good without even having to fire a butler....
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Info coming out on the shooter from Antioch. Exactly who you'd expect him to be.
Problem is there are thousands like him in the weeds.
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Bingo.
Too much wealth is concentrated in the hands of too few people...all of whom could give a few hundred million to the common good without even having to fire a butler....
If it were only so.
They can't, it is not within them. Ego, greed, competition among themselves, lack of empathy, self centeredness. Only we the people can do that. I wish Kenosha the best tonight. There will be another shooting, another night to protest.
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Bingo.
Too much wealth is concentrated in the hands of too few people...all of whom could give a few hundred million to the common good without even having to fire a butler....
https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-surged-14-in-2019-to-21-3-million-ceos-now-earn-320-times-as-much-as-a-typical-worker/
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I thought this was one of the more intelligent comments in this entire thread. It shows an understanding of what is happening in way too many locales throughout America and it's at the root of the income equality many perceive to be a huge underlying issue in the United States.
In the late 1970s and early 1980s, I lived in Rock Island, IL (the Quad Cities). At that time, the region was fueled by the "blue collar dream" where African-American, Caucasian and Hispanic folks worked at UAW-represented ag-imp and construction implement plants, or at firms (like the Rock Island Lines) that supported the ag-imp industry. In four short years, a variety of management mistakes, a nasty recession, labor strife, automation and off-shoring led to unemployment rates that increased from about 3.9 percent to nearly 30 percent.
Today, the area still suffers from deindustrialization. The training that was promised to replace manufacturing with "new economy" jobs failed to deliver. People that made $30,000 plus a year in 1979 probably never made that much again. Their children either left the area or held jobs that paid a fraction in real terms of what their parents or grandparents made. The problems that led to an industrial exodus from the Quad Cities and left the area unable to replace what left still exist today.
As Brother Vogue points out, there are a lot of other communities like the Quad Cities out there. The biggest single problem on the South Side of Chicago has been the loss of industrial jobs over the last 50 years. Companies like Wisconsin Steel, Sears, Pullman, US Steel, Armour, Swift and a host of others declared bankruptcy or closed antiquated plants. Even companies like Ford Motor, which still manufacturers automobiles on Torrance Avenue, needs far fewer persons to assemble cars than they once did.
If we want to improve the plight of African Americans, we have to begin by encouraging investment in places like Flint, the Quad Cities, Chicago, St. Louis and elsewhere. The investment has to be real and the opportunity such that those who've experienced poverty and inequality can hold jobs and grow their way back into the middle class. We've tried for more than 50 years and I can't say we have come close to solving this problem.
I know nobody wants to acknowledge this, but before the Covid-19 pandemic, the "Great Satan", as many people view him, had our country headed in this direction. Unemployment in African-American communities was at its lowest level in recorded history. Real wages were rising. The efforts to put tariffs on imported goods was in no small measure designed to level the playing field and ensure our plants and our people were treated fairly. I hope that whomever is elected this fall continues this effort.
I have always been a proponent of blue collar jobs as a stepping stone to a better life for future generations. It was the model that my family benefited from.
In Kenosha, my grandparents immigrated from Europe. Grandfather first worked at Simmons mattress and then AMC. Grandparents and parents who put family life first.
Kenosha is taking its knocks now, but as earlier posters said, will probably become the third largest city in Wisconsin shortly.
Why? Because it offers opportunity that few places in the USA does.
It has a micro-economy of its own.
It benefits from the prosperity of Chicago with businesses wanting to be in close proximity to Chicago but not having to deal with all the negatives of Chicago.
This area of the Midwest is also a strong union area. Hence giving blue collar workers a better wage than other areas of the country.
People can try to trash on Kenosha, but it gives immigrants, minorities and starting businesses a good chance to succeed.
One cannot force someone to take advantage of opportunity.
Very tragic what happened, and wrongs must be righted. But there are a lot of positives about Kenosha for everyone. Which is why it is growing and prospering.
Ok, off my soap box now.
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I am all for people making money, good money, even big money. 👍
But as I posted recently in a different thread, CEO’s now make 320 times more than the typical worker.
Maybe take some of hose billions in wealthy corporate stimulus and actually give it directly to those who need it most during a Pandemic. And perhaps, also use some of that $ for early childhood education, healthcare, training and development etc in places such as Kenosha, and many other places USA. Feel free to use some to educate, train, and recruit police departments that that understand community policing and all that it entails.
Bill Gates literally has given away billions, and he has pledged to give away just about everything he owns ... and yet he still has become a target for supporting the "wrong" causes. In some comment streams, he's supposedly engineering vaccines that would make a religious person start hating God. I mean, who can make this stuff up?
But yes, it would be great if more of these rich folks did more.
My personal pet peeve is when a billionaire owns a sports franchise and then, while blackmailing taxpayers into building him a new stadium, he donates a relative pittance to something and gets his name on stuff.
So, for example, you had Jerry Richardson threatening to move the Panthers if we didn't pay nearly $100 million for improvements to the stadium. He then turned around and gave away $10 million to UNC-Charlotte and now his name is on their stadium. I'd have rather just had us taxpayers give the $10 million to UNCC. We could call it Taxpayer Stadium, we'd be $90 million richer and we wouldn't have a d-bag sexual predator's name on the football stadium of the city's only major university.
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The 17 year old shooter/murderer posted a Tik Tok video of himself near the stage during DJT's January campaign rally.
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Bill Gates literally has given away billions, and he has pledged to give away just about everything he owns ... and yet he still has become a target for supporting the "wrong" causes. In some comment streams, he's supposedly engineering vaccines that would make a religious person start hating God. I mean, who can make this stuff up?
But yes, it would be great if more of these rich folks did more.
My personal pet peeve is when a billionaire owns a sports franchise and then, while blackmailing taxpayers into building him a new stadium, he donates a relative pittance to something and gets his name on stuff.
So, for example, you had Jerry Richardson threatening to move the Panthers if we didn't pay nearly $100 million for improvements to the stadium. He then turned around and gave away $10 million to UNC-Charlotte and now his name is on their stadium. I'd have rather just had us taxpayers give the $10 million to UNCC. We could call it Taxpayer Stadium, we'd be $90 million richer and we wouldn't have a d-bag sexual predator's name on the football stadium of the city's only major university.
Charlotte also has David Tepper, wealthiest NFL owner at $12 billion plus asking $110 million in public money for his new project. Not saying he hasn’t done good things for Charlotte or Pittsburgh because he has. But I mean c’mon. Perhaps buy one less toy instead of taking public money for this one.
Each person is a unique individual
deserving of individual examination. The general point is clear in the ever increasing wealth divide as those net worths seem to being going up and not down.
Not enough people with all of the money gives too bleeps about those in need. Some do some don’t. But not enough, and certainly not relative to worth.
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The 17 year old shooter/murderer posted a Tik Tok video of himself near the stage during DJT's January campaign rally.
Doughy white incel with a severe gun fetish that idolizes Trump and occupies front row at his rallies? Check. As I said above, he is exactly who you would have imagined.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/59/bc/2A5UYIGP_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/2A5UYIGP)
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Doughy white incel with a severe gun fetish that idolizes Trump and occupies front row at his rallies? Check. As I said above, he is exactly who you would have imagined.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/59/bc/2A5UYIGP_o.png) (https://imgbox.com/2A5UYIGP)
He's famous now so he got his wish
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Charlotte also has David Tepper, wealthiest NFL owner at $12 billion plus asking $110 million in public money for his new project. Not saying he hasn’t done good things for Charlotte or Pittsburgh because he has. But I mean c’mon. Perhaps buy one less toy instead of taking public money for this one.
Each person is a unique individual
deserving of individual examination. The general point is clear in the ever increasing wealth divide as those net worths seem to being going up and not down.
Not enough people with all of the money gives too bleeps about those in need. Some do some don’t. But not enough, and certainly not relative to worth.
Yep. So far, Tepper has been a disappointment in that regard.
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OT: Billionaires are bad for society
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Annnnndddddd, Tucker Carlson explains that this is all the victims' faults.
https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1298774120599973889
Tucker: How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would
Vile piece of crap
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If you've ever doubted that law enforcement treats black men differently than white men, please watch this.
After shooting three people, the 17-year-old runs toward the cops, still armed with his AR15.
The cops just let him walk on by.
.
@kirkacevedo: WATCH VIDEO!
Kyle Rittenhouse 17 years old
from Antioch, IL shoots a man in the head with an AR-15 & kills him in Kenosha. He also shot 2 more people
Evades street justice by running toward cops with an AR-15
AND the Police just let him go!
https://twitter.com/admirim/status/1298579061711810561/video/1
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Annnnndddddd, Tucker Carlson explains that this is all the victims' faults.
https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1298774120599973889
Tucker: How shocked are we that 17 year olds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would
Vile piece of crap
This is the judicial equivalent of privatizing profits and socializing losses. No bad can be done because of white males - bad actors are a societal outcome
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People can have the Kenosha thread back in one second.
Fact Check:
Black Unemployment went from 17% to 8% under Obama. I must have missed this in your post. The current administration didn't even improve it a third of that. Then Under President Pandemic, it rose back to 17%.
The regurgitation of false facts, misleading statements, and or straight lies requires daily point by point correction.
I'm sure all of the money will just trickle down though. Oh look here... In the news this week, Jeff Bezos, hitting the $200 billion net worth. Research shows he has donated, wait for it, less than 0.2 % of his net worth to charity and refused the giving pledge when asked. But I digress.
Fact check, and I am not a Trump guy, the unemployment rate for African americans went down from Obama to prepandemic Trump. https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000006
That being said, something has to be done NOW, about police reform. An African American male is 2.8 times more likely to be.killed by a police officer than a white man.
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If you've ever doubted that law enforcement treats black men differently than white men, please watch this.
After shooting three people, the 17-year-old runs toward the cops, still armed with his AR15.
The cops just let him walk on by.
.
@kirkacevedo: WATCH VIDEO!
Kyle Rittenhouse 17 years old
from Antioch, IL shoots a man in the head with an AR-15 & kills him in Kenosha. He also shot 2 more people
Evades street justice by running toward cops with an AR-15
AND the Police just let him go!
https://twitter.com/admirim/status/1298579061711810561/video/1
I noticed the same thing while watching with my wife. She was like, “What the eff?”
He not only had the gun and approached the cops, but he kept reaching for it, seemingly to keep it from falling off his shoulder.
I’m sure a Black guy would have been treated exactly the same.
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Fact check, and I am not a Trump guy, the unemployment rate for African americans went down from Obama to prepandemic Trump. https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000006
That being said, something has to be done NOW, about police reform. An African American male is 2.8 times more likely to be.killed by a police officer than a white man.
? Maybe re-read my post again. Or maybe re-read your attached chart. How is it different than anything I posted? Obama inherited a recession and reduced unemployment for African Americans significantly. It slightly decreased under Trump until the Pandemic for which Trump is largely responsible for its massive mishandling increasing African American unemployment back up to 17% and now slightly under that.
My post was in response to someone that incorrectly gave all the credit to the current President for African American unemployment rates without noting two important things: 1) The previous President who did the heavy lifting. 2) Acknowledging the current President's massive mishandling of the Pandemic which has been a big factor in the sharp rise of AA unemployment. Those seem to be important parts to the piece, no?
Police Reform is certainly an inmediate need of greatest importance.
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I saw a photo of the murder wearing a Jr. Police uniform, sort of the boy scouts for future police officers.
Civilian Air Patrol, Hitler Youth, American Legion Baseball, sort of thing.
Tonight the D.A. said, if he could prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt he would prosecute the cop who shot Blake. He did not say what he would do if he he could not prove the murder beyond a reasonable doubt.
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This is an example of what happens when you glorify people such as the McCloskeys and have them speak at your convention:
https://twitter.com/SenGianaris/status/1298691486700249093?s=19
By the way the McCloskeys spoke about the suburbs even though they live in the City, in a diverse, eclectic, progressive part of the city where they are disliked by many of their neighbors.
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Doc. Rivers was great tonight when saying, "we love America, why doesn't America love us".
The Bucks take a knee, all right.
The NBA checks out, great.
Hope Kenosha is peaceful tonight.
Keep your powder dry.
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This is an example of what happens when you glorify people such as the McCloskeys and have them speak at your convention:
https://twitter.com/SenGianaris/status/1298691486700249093?s=19
By the way the McCloskeys spoke about the suburbs even though they live in the City, in a diverse, eclectic, progressive part of the city where they are disliked by many of their neighbors.
Sounds like the Trumps in Bedminster.
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Jacob Blakes' mother has respect for President Trump.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jacob-blake-mother-respect-trump-missed-call-a9689646.html
I heard he had a knife. Still 7 shots to the back to me is excessive. I'm sure her plea to stop the looting and arson will fall on deaf ears to the anarchists imbedded with the sincere folks of BLM. At least the Governor agreed to have the national guard help to restore order.
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I saw a photo of the murder wearing a Jr. Police uniform, sort of the boy scouts for future police officers.
Civilian Air Patrol, Hitler Youth, American Legion Baseball, sort of thing.
Tonight the D.A. said, if he could prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt he would prosecute the cop who shot Blake. He did not say what he would do if he he could not prove the murder beyond a reasonable doubt.
Hitler youth and legion ball? I'd love to hear this connection. :o :o :o
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haha--Lenny thought the same thing.
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Kenosha County Sheriff video from 2018:
https://twitter.com/7im/status/1298770531278131201?s=19
https://twitter.com/owillis/status/1298563557043445762?s=19
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Kenosha County Sheriff video from 2018:
https://twitter.com/7im/status/1298770531278131201?s=19
https://twitter.com/owillis/status/1298563557043445762?s=19
Sounds eerily like one of our Scoopers.
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Civilian Air Patrol, Hitler Youth, American Legion Baseball, sort of thing.
One of these is very different then the others, and I am starting to question your mental health.
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Kenosha County Sheriff video from 2018:
https://twitter.com/7im/status/1298770531278131201?s=19
https://twitter.com/owillis/status/1298563557043445762?s=19
This pisses me off, because I heard Sheriff Beth's "hell no" comment about deputizing the vigilante groups and thought he might be on the right side. But this makes me feel otherwise. Ugh.
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Yes. You as a white man who has never had to deal with being racially profiled find it easy to follow what "authority" tells you to do.
ok, i also followed what my elders told me, my teachers, coaches, priests...i guess following or respecting authority is a "white person" thing? how racist of you blm-no surprise there
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ok, i also followed what my elders told me, my teachers, coaches, priests...i guess following or respecting authority is a "white person" thing? how racist of you blm-no surprise there
Not sure how well the advice of always listening to priests and coaches will work out
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ok, i also followed what my elders told me, my teachers, coaches, priests...i guess following or respecting authority is a "white person" thing? how racist of you blm-no surprise there
Good authority.
I knew 3 different priests from three different walks of life that as it turns out all molested children.
I knew a police officer who was racist, verbally and physically abusive. He got away with it a long time too. ...until he was caught on video cracking his flashlight on an innocent person's head. He was fired.
Don't get me started with coaches, teachers, the military.
There are of course many good people in all of these professions and others. I have experienced that too.
It's perfectly acceptable to question bad authority. Good trouble.
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ok, i also followed what my elders told me, my teachers, coaches, priests...i guess following or respecting authority is a "white person" thing? how racist of you blm-no surprise there
Whole bunch of your elders are in hell.
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The Kenosha police chief needs to be fired. Yesterday. What an effen tool.
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Hitler youth and legion ball? I'd love to hear this connection. :o :o :o
Help me out.
I'm not up on youth groups that are sponsored by adults and who wear uniforms.
Legion ball is just another pathway into a military career. Hang with the vets, all good guys, grow with father figures, whatever.
Technically you are right, especially if you want to pick another fight.
I'm suprised and a little lost for words to classify young men playing police officer with loaded AK-47's. Can you think of a better connection/comparison for a police want-a-be?
Thanks for your help my friend.
#unleashDenier
My mental health is fine, my Lymes not so good, thanks for caring.
Oh, BTW, are you guys in the American Legion? I am.
We sponsor Eagel Scout boy scouts. Every General Officer I've known were Eagel Scouts, who knew?
Do the Masons have youth programs?
Apparently the Kenosha P.D. has one.
What do the, Eagel Scouts, Hitler Youth, Legion ball, Civil Air Patrol, and Kenosha police youth have in commo ?
It's like a College Board question.
Can you get the right answer?
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I don’t think you know what Legion baseball is.
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No person should take the law into their own hands. Vigilantism leads to situations just like this. Where were the police, the fire department to bring order and put out the fires? This was a failure of elected and non-elected local and state officials.
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Not sure how well the advice of always listening to priests and coaches will work out
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3o7aCWJavAgtBzLWrS/giphy.gif)
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No person should take the law into their own hands. Vigilantism leads to situations just like this. Where were the police, the fire department to bring order and put out the fires? This was a failure of elected and non-elected local and state officials.
Well, the Kenosha police let this 17-year-old turd stroll by them with his assault rifle hanging from his shoulder by its strap. He walked right at them, and kept reaching for his gun (seemingly because it kept slipping off his shoulder).
I wonder if a Black guy would have been allowed to stroll so casually toward the cops while constantly reaching for his gun during a riot. Hmmm. I wonder.
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Well, the Kenosha police let this 17-year-old turd stroll by them with his assault rifle hanging from his shoulder by its strap. He walked right at them, and kept reaching for his gun (seemingly because it kept slipping off his shoulder).
I wonder if a Black guy would have been allowed to stroll so casually toward the cops while constantly reaching for his gun during a riot. Hmmm. I wonder.
Again a failure of local and state officials to maintain order at the time. He has been arrested and charged and hopefully as an adult, not get off on some technicality as a minor.
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Tonight the D.A. said, if he could prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt he would prosecute the cop who shot Blake. He did not say what he would do if he he could not prove the murder beyond a reasonable doubt.
That's not how indictments are supposed to work....
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Whole bunch of your elders are in hell.
And a whole bunch of our children. Both figuratively and literally. If we don't get crap figured out in this country.
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That's not how indictments are supposed to work....
Coleman,
Are you a lawyer?
That's the problem, the D.A., the prosecuter, decides to bury a case because HE FEEL'S that the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt can't be met.
Our system is failing us.
Let a jury of his peers make the decision, not the prosecuter.
I'm not a lawyer, but I can smell a rigged system when I come across one.
Political prosecutors and non political prosecutors tricks of the trade off the top of my head are change of venue, plausible deniability, qualified immunity, and selective eninforcement.
As I say I'm no lawyer, but the law is failing us. We are in a lawless society when a 17 year old with a loaded AK-47 can walk down the street and kill people. Right to bear an AK-47, stand your ground laws, and ambushes are acceptable means the end of civilized society.
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In current bizarro land, I half expect that 17 year old to speak at Trump Fest tonite
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And a whole bunch of our children. Both figuratively and literally. If we don't get crap figured out in this country.
How about starting with electing people who pay their taxes and can prove it?
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Coleman,
Are you a lawyer?
That's the problem, the D.A., the prosecuter, decides to bury a case because HE FEEL'S that the standard of reasonable doubt can't be met.
Our system is failing us.
Let a jury of his peers make the decision, not the prosecuter.
I'm not a lawyer, but I can smell a rigged system when I come across one.
Political prosecutors and non political prosecutors tricks of the trade off the top of my head are change of venue, plausible deniability, qualified immunity, and selective eninforcement.
As I say I'm no lawyer, but the law is failing us. We are in a lawless society when a 17 year old with a loaded AK-47 can walk down the street and kill people. Right to bear an AK-47, stand your ground laws, and ambushes are acceptable means the end of civilized society.
I am not a lawyer.
But I know enough to know that the standard burden of proof for indictment is not the same as conviction.
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In current bizarro land, I half expect that 17 year old to speak at Trump Fest tonite
They would have if they had time.
The nut job lawyers from St. Louis ( home of the Dred Scott decision) had to do for now.
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I am not a lawyer.
But I know enough to know that the standard burden of proof for indictment is not the same as conviction.
I don't know what you know.
The D.A. said that he will determine to prosecute or not based on his evaluation of the evidence.
He has the power not the people, and claiming he is elected is besides the point.
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In current bizarro land, I half expect that 17 year old to speak at Trump Fest tonite
bravo for this.
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I don’t think you know what Legion baseball is.
Are you in the Legion?
We sponsor a team, we make a connection with the post and the young men, some even become auxiliary members.
You're right I haven' a clue.
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And a whole bunch of our children. Both figuratively and literally. If we don't get crap figured out in this country.
This is a very true statement. Yet it seems the vast majority of young people, college students, etc., seem to be very woke. They will save us from the sins of our elders.
At times I regret not having children, yet there are times I'm actually grateful too, as I suspect America is going to be an absolute cesspool in 30 years. Why? Deterioration of family values, fringe extremists in media/social media dictating to the masses what they can/cannot do, say, believe, (without being called a racist, sexist, xenophobe, misogynist) and a society that seemingly eschews personal responsibility and wants to immediately point the finger outward.
Life isn't fair. Never has been. Never will be. Tough sh$t. Jeff Bezos is a billionaire and has way more money than he needs. So what? You don't like that, don't use his company's services. Creation of value is what gets rewarded in our society - Amazon provides a valuable service, thus, the market rewards it. I suspect Jeff Bezos has a lot better ideas how to deploy his capital than some idiot politicians.
It is really sad to see and hear how many people resent the massive succe$$ our country's innovators have achieved, and the good and convenience their innovations bring to the lives of those of us less brilliant, driven, capable.
And what happened in Kenosha is just as sad. Everything about it. Young man with a checkered rap sheet, who doesn't want to comply with authority, to overzealous cops that massively overreacted.
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In current bizarro land, I half expect that 17 year old to speak at Trump Fest tonite
https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/1298711658362056704
"I want Kyle Rittenhouse as my bodyguard. I want him as my president."
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https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/1298711658362056704
"I want Kyle Rittenhouse as my bodyguard. I want him as my president."
hfs
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Good authority.
I knew 3 different priests from three different walks of life that as it turns out all molested children.
I knew a police officer who was racist, verbally and physically abusive. He got away with it a long time too. ...until he was caught on video cracking his flashlight on an innocent person's head. He was fired.
Don't get me started with coaches, teachers, the military.
There are of course many good people in all of these professions and others. I have experienced that too.
It's perfectly acceptable to question bad authority. Good trouble.
Right on.
The trick to good leadership and using authority properly is humility.
The problem is that authoritian leaders are ego maniacs.
Most people in authority have big egos.
People like to be led by bullies and thugs, until they don't.
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https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/1298711658362056704
"I want Kyle Rittenhouse as my bodyguard. I want him as my president."
We should up the voting age to 25 or 30.
Young people don't vote anyway and if they do, look out.
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I am not a lawyer.
But I know enough to know that the standard burden of proof for indictment is not the same as conviction.
That's not really how DAs make decisions of prosecutorial discretion.
Conviction rates are so high in part because of the cases that aren't brought. If you're the DA, you don't want to waste your time charging cases where your assessment of your case suggests you have enough to charge but not enough to reach BARD and convict.
What's the point of charging cases you expect to lose?
(Now, there is implicit in this the fact that the DA is the one making that evaluation, and the "I don't think I can prove guilt BARD for [whomever is suspected of a crime]" gives the DA the power to protect someone behind their prosecutorial discretion, but that's separate from a discussion of how burdens of proof work at the charging stage)
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We should up the voting age to 25 or 30.
Young people don't vote anyway and if they do, look out.
Iagree with you. Yet, Kamala Harris believes the voting age should be lowered. Everybody knows kids by 16 have developed strong critical thinking skills.
https://grabien.com/story.php?id=232235
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/04/kamala-harris-impeachment-voting-age-changes/
Asked later about lowering the voting age to 16, Harris said: “I’m really interested in having that conversation.” Some Democratic bigwigs now think it’s time to have a conversation about Kamala Harris’s interest in “having that conversation.”
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This is a very true statement. Yet it seems the vast majority of young people, college students, etc., seem to be very woke. They will save us from the sins of our elders.
At times I regret not having children, yet there are times I'm actually grateful too, as I suspect America is going to be an absolute cesspool in 30 years. Why? Deterioration of family values, fringe extremists in media/social media dictating to the masses what they can/cannot do, say, believe, (without being called a racist, sexist, xenophobe, misogynist) and a society that seemingly eschews personal responsibility and wants to immediately point the finger outward.
Life isn't fair. Never has been. Never will be. Tough sh$t. Jeff Bezos is a billionaire and has way more money than he needs. So what? You don't like that, don't use his company's services. Creation of value is what gets rewarded in our society - Amazon provides a valuable service, thus, the market rewards it. I suspect Jeff Bezos has a lot better ideas how to deploy his capital than some idiot politicians.
It is really sad to see and hear how many people resent the massive succe$$ our country's innovators have achieved, and the good and convenience their innovations bring to the lives of those of us less brilliant, driven, capable.
And what happened in Kenosha is just as sad. Everything about it. Young man with a checkered rap sheet, who doesn't want to comply with authority, to overzealous cops that massively overreacted.
You really drank the Kool-Aid.
I live part time in Europe, we have our share of wealthy people.
Some have their fortunes that go back centuries.
They also understand the common good and enlightened self interest.
The influence of the Harvard M.B.A. mentality on our culture has created the current business culture in America.
I feel Marquette fell right into the trap.
We can't have it both ways. Subjugate and dominate some and let some take all the marbles.
A house divided against itself can not stand, Abe Lincoln.
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Iagree with you. Yet, Kamala Harris believes the voting age should be lowered. Everybody knows kids by 16 have developed strong critical thinking skills.
https://grabien.com/story.php?id=232235
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/04/kamala-harris-impeachment-voting-age-changes/
Asked later about lowering the voting age to 16, Har767'sris said: “I’m really interested in having that conversation.” Some Democratic bigwigs now think it’s time to have a conversation about Kamala Harris’s interest in “having that conversation.”
Yes, even liberals have agreeable disagreements, we are not a cult.
I'm for bringing back the draft.
A fair draft without loopholes like law school.
Harris is not the Democratic Party, she is a senator and a candidate.
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Well, the Kenosha police let this 17-year-old turd stroll by them with his assault rifle hanging from his shoulder by its strap. He walked right at them, and kept reaching for his gun (seemingly because it kept slipping off his shoulder).
I wonder if a Black guy would have been allowed to stroll so casually toward the cops while constantly reaching for his gun during a riot. Hmmm. I wonder.
A day earlier, in Idaho, heavily armed white terrorists stormed the state capitol and forced their way past police into the chambers. Heavily armed white men. The police reaction? Ah, let them do it, we don't want any trouble.
An unarmed black man walks away from police? Police reaction is to empty their gun into the man's back.
THIS IS AMERICA!
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You really drank the Kool-Aid.
I live part time in Europe, we have our share of wealthy people.
Some have their fortunes that go back centuries.
They also understand the common good and enlightened self interest.
The influence of the Harvard M.B.A. mentality on our culture has created the current business culture in America.
I feel Marquette fell right into the trap.
We can't have it both ways. Subjugate and dominate some and let some take all the marbles.
A house divided against itself can not stand, Abe Lincoln.
Pretty sure our rich have donated massive amounts of their fortunes to all kinds of societal causes. Not to mention the companies they build employ millions, and generate billions in wages, and tax revenues.
Further, the top 1% pay 38% of the U.S. Tax bill. Is a 38x multiple of their size, not "paying their fair share?"
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A day earlier, in Idaho, heavily armed white terrorists stormed the state capitol and forced their way past police into the chambers. Heavily armed white men. The police reaction? Ah, let them do it, we don't want any trouble.
An unarmed black man walks away from police? Police reaction is to empty their gun into the man's back.
THIS IS AMERICA!
Yes, this is America.
Macho punks, the NRA, lack of compliance, now armed to the teeth like Seria, Iraqi, Somolia, Liberia. We are close to becoming a third world country. Thanks guys.
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This is a very true statement. Yet it seems the vast majority of young people, college students, etc., seem to be very woke. They will save us from the sins of our elders.
At times I regret not having children, yet there are times I'm actually grateful too, as I suspect America is going to be an absolute cesspool in 30 years. Why? Deterioration of family values, fringe extremists in media/social media dictating to the masses what they can/cannot do, say, believe, (without being called a racist, sexist, xenophobe, misogynist) and a society that seemingly eschews personal responsibility and wants to immediately point the finger outward.
Life isn't fair. Never has been. Never will be. Tough sh$t. Jeff Bezos is a billionaire and has way more money than he needs. So what? You don't like that, don't use his company's services. Creation of value is what gets rewarded in our society - Amazon provides a valuable service, thus, the market rewards it. I suspect Jeff Bezos has a lot better ideas how to deploy his capital than some idiot politicians.
It is really sad to see and hear how many people resent the massive succe$$ our country's innovators have achieved, and the good and convenience their innovations bring to the lives of those of us less brilliant, driven, capable.
And what happened in Kenosha is just as sad. Everything about it. Young man with a checkered rap sheet, who doesn't want to comply with authority, to overzealous cops that massively overreacted.
To be honest, we're grateful you didn't have children either.
But seriously, non-marital birth rates are decreasing...divorce rates decreasing...violent crime rate is up this year, but has been decreasing steadily for 20 years.
This idea that the US is on the road to ruin is hilarious.
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At times I regret not having children, yet there are times I'm actually grateful too
The rest of us are very grateful you have no offspring.
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Pretty sure our rich have donated massive amounts of their fortunes to all kinds of societal causes. Not to mention the companies they build employ millions, and generate billions in wages, and tax revenues.
Further, the top 1% pay 38% of the U.S. Tax bill. Is a 38x multiple of their size, not "paying their fair share?"
You don't have to prove to me how much Kool-Aid you have drunk.
You don't have to enlighten me about the party line.
No need to argue, you win. Corporate America has done right by America, profits are good, stocks increase in value, except my G.E., my fault.
Everything is wonderful, my golf game is under control, my new car is full of gas, my stock portfolio is doing fine, I have a 401(k), my wife has a trust fund, lets party.
My friends in Newark don't have jobs, live in single occupancy rooms, live three famlies in a run down house, have little but a lot of love. They pool what they have, they share, they help each other. They have humility and acceptance. They don't drink your Kool-Aid, they drink real Kool-Aid because the water stinks and the children are thirsty. They buy yesterday's donuts, eat a lot of junk food because its cheap and it kills the hunger pains. They visit relatives in prison due to mass incarceration.
Many use the V.A. because they defended this country and survived. And because they are poor.
I know, who cares, corporate America is doing a great job of building wealth, educating the masses, creating new industries and meeting market demands.
Party line talk is interesting, cult behavior is probably in human nature. Rationalization is always helpful. We have to justify our behavior and have reasons for our positions.
Thanks for your tax rap., always good learning about distribution of wealth.
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To be honest, we're grateful you didn't have children either.
But seriously, non-marital birth rates are decreasing...divorce rates decreasing...violent crime rate is up this year, but has been decreasing steadily for 20 years.
This idea that the US is on the road to ruin is hilarious.
The rest of us are very grateful you have no offspring.
These guys. True comedians. 8-)
That aside, the divide in viewpoint in America is growing quite polar. I don't see this country as being on the right track. But, Fluffy, kudos to you for your optimism.
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To be honest, we're grateful you didn't have children either.
But seriously, non-marital birth rates are decreasing...divorce rates decreasing...violent crime rate is up this year, but has been decreasing steadily for 20 years.
This idea that the US is on the road to ruin is hilarious.
You are right, let's laugh it all off, it's hilarious, ha, ha, ha.
Ever see Cabaret?
Probably not if you are an engineer.
How about the song, Willkoman?
Germany had a great country, culture, industry, philosophy, government and something happened and then it all ended.
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You don't have to prove to me how much Kool-Aid you have drunk.
You don't have to enlighten me about the party line.
No need to argue, you win. Corporate America has done right by America, profits are good, stocks increase in value, except my G.E., my fault.
Everything is wonderful, my golf game is under control, my new car is full of gas, my stock portfolio is doing fine, I have a 401(k), my wife has a trust fund, lets party.
My friends in Newark don't have jobs, live in single occupancy rooms, live three famlies in a run down house, have little but a lot of love. They pool what they have, they share, they help each other. They have humility and acceptance. They don't drink your Kool-Aid, they drink real Kool-Aid because the water stinks and the children are thirsty. They buy yesterday's donuts, eat a lot of junk food because its cheap and it kills the hunger pains. They visit relatives in prison due to mass incarceration.
Many use the V.A. because they defended this country and survived. And because they are poor.
I know, who cares, corporate America is doing a great job of building wealth, educating the masses, creating new industries and meeting market demands.
Party line talk is interesting, cult behavior is probably in human nature. Rationalization is always helpful. We have to justify our behavior and have reasons for our positions.
Thanks for your tax rap., always good learning about distribution of wealth.
You should drive over to Newark and share your portfolio and good fortune with those you mention. Or, take your portfolio, start your own company/business, and create jobs for those friends. Why haven't you done so already? What are you waiting for?
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These guys. True comedians. 8-)
They weren't being funny.
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These guys. True comedians. 8-)
That aside, the divide in viewpoint in America is growing quite polar. I don't see this country as being on the right track. But, Fluffy, kudos to you for your optimism.
Optimism or rose colored glasses, I call it denial.
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This is changing from a rabbit hole to a rat hole, time to sign off, love you all and lets pray for some peace.
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These guys. True comedians. 8-)
That aside, the divide in viewpoint in America is growing quite polar. I don't see this country as being on the right track. But, Fluffy, kudos to you for your optimism.
I guess you'll have to hold our President responsible, and vote for Biden in November!
8-)
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I guess you'll have to hold our President responsible, and vote for Biden Harris in November!
8-)
Fixed. 8-)
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They weren't being funny.
I know. They'd rather the continued disruption of the Western prescribed nuclear family, and advocate for bastard children - frequently brought into this world by people with no college education, job, or means for providing for their children.
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I know. They'd rather the continued disruption of the Western prescribed nuclear family, and advocate for bastard children - frequently brought into this world by people with no college education, job, or means for providing for their children.
Honest question, why is the Western nuclear family (as you put it) so desirable? I have plenty of friends that come from divorced families, and single parent households. You seem to be implying that children in these situations are doomed to fail.
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So uh...about Kenosha...
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Honest question, why is the Western nuclear family (as you put it) so desirable? I have plenty of friends that come from divorced families, and single parent households. You seem to be implying that children in these situations are doomed to fail.
He's not implying that at all. He's saying statistically one family structure is better than the other.
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Honest question, why is the Western nuclear family (as you put it) so desirable? I have plenty of friends that come from divorced families, and single parent households. You seem to be implying that children in these situations are doomed to fail.
Honest question: Do you believe it is desirable to be raised in a single parent household? Take that a step further: Do you believe it is desirable to be raised by a single Mom, with limited education, AND one in which the father is absent?
Unfortunately the rate of absentee fathers in the Black community significantly exceeds that in White/Hispanic/Asian cultures. Generally it has been accepted and shown that men particularly need a strong male role model in their lives - which likely explains why the violent crime rate, incarceration rate, of Black males, exponentially exceeds that of their percentage of population.
I'm not sure how the government, or white people, are supposed to go about forging better family structures in the Black community? Problems will persist so long as this absentee father dynamic, coupled with little education plagues the Black community. But, of course, cops, and society as a whole also has to improve to not stereotype and profile.
The problem is multi-factorial - it is not as simple to just reduce it down to there is "systemic racism," and ACAB. In my view, embracing personal responsibility is the biggest antidote to ending these tragedies - on both sides of the coin.
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He's not implying that at all. He's saying statistically one family structure is better than the other.
Yes. What I just posted above also would apply to kids of any ethnicity. If you are born into the world with a crappy foundation, your outcome is likely not going to be very good - or it is exponentially more difficult.
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I think this is a super important topic .. but the current discourse needs a pause as the personal attacks need to stop.
Will re-open later.
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In changing the direction, I'd propose a single question: Many of us are angry at what has happened in Kenosha, as well as in Minneapolis, Atlanta, Chicago (Laquan McDonald) and other places.
What do you think we should do about it? What tangible steps should be taken now to address the grievances and anger that exists in our country. Whether it be by government, churches or the private sector. What should be done?
I'll start:
1) We need to change the way we train police officers. We need to move away from a paramilitary organization first and more toward an community-based organization that's protecting through, in part, involvement in communities. We need an open and free-form discussion between police officers and the communities they serve aimed at building bridges rather than walls.
2) We need to improve police recruitment. We need more Latino, African-American, female, gay and lesbian and Asian police officers. We also need to encourage college graduates to become police officers and tighten minimum educational standards for police officers.
3) We need tighter gun laws that put more control over gun shows, private sales and other non-registered gun sales. That and society should consider tougher prison sentences and harsher enforcement for persons with unregistered firearms in their possession. If we reduce the number of guns on the street, we reduce the fear that police officers live in and relax the apprehension that police have when confronting citizens.
This is a start. I'm sure everyone on both sides of the political spectrum has ideas. What can we do????
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I appreciate the effort, dg. There's plenty of other stuff, but I'll chip in with this:
Either re-allocate resources and/or get new resources to significantly increase the number of psychologists, social workers and similar personnel who can help get cops out of the psychology business.
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This may be a better fit for BLM's 'I love you all' thread.......
I agree with your specific recommendations but I'm at a point where a more fundamental change is needed. I believe that any community, be it neighborhood/city/state/country, is at it's best when every member of that community is doing their best. The 'best' for some is awesome innovation and enablement of great things. The 'best' for others is just making it through the day.....But every member of our community needs help in being their best, surviving the day, capturing their dream.
The issue to me is no longer about a specific position on the 2nd amendment, BLM, law and order, etc. it's now just about "do you care about your fellow human being, treat that person with respect regardless, and help them in an appropriate capacity".
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The issue to me is no longer about a specific position on the 2nd amendment, BLM, law and order, etc. it's now just about "do you care about your fellow human being, treat that person with respect regardless, and help them in an appropriate capacity".
Yep. People are full of passion and certitude in areas where there is room for compromise (policy) and full of equivocation where there should be no room for compromise (treating one another with respect and dignity).
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Great starting place dg.
Additionally, we probably need to stop using police as a catch all when society doesn't know what to do. They're stuck responding to a lot of society's problems for which they have no training, and asking them to do these things in addition to stop crime is asking too much of one profession. Branch the police's current responsibilities into several smaller more specialized organizations. And generally, these 'officers' don't need a service weapon on them... but all of them have body cams.
Health services - attend to needs of homeless, and at risk populations
Traffic services - attend to roads and driving violations
Domestic services - attend to non violent disturbances
Detective services - attend to the investigation of violent crimes (can carry side arm)
This is just a start, I'm sure others could contribute other divisions if they are needed. Cross training is generally discouraged unless the force is sufficiently small.
Ability of city boards and review boards (comprised of constituents) to have the ability to reprimand and eventually remove any officer. Plus a database with all officers and oversight.
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BODY CAMS!
Be it through federal, state or local funds, every single cop who goes out on assignment must wear and must use a body cam.
The failure to turn on a body cam will result in at least a one-month suspension without pay. If multiple officers are on the same assignment and they all conveniently "forget" to turn on their body cams, it will be assumed they were conspiring in a lie and they will be fired. If an officer claims the body cam malfunctioned and it's discovered he or she was lying, he or she will be fired, and not allowed to be hired again in law enforcement anywhere in the United States.
It's sad, but we no longer can give officers the benefit of the doubt in he said/he said situations. We absolutely need video evidence of every encounter with the public. Period.
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I’ll add that we have to fix the culture of blanket immunity—the sniveling face of Derek Chauvin spoke volumes about police entitlement and lack of accountability more broadly. Police union protection is one area of reform, and so is the legal system’s treatment of police (e.g., qualified immunity).
But the whole foundation is problematic. It’s become an adversarial system, where police are de facto against the people they’re entrusted to protect. The British model, where officers exist to HELP and KEEP PEACE, generally works—but to do that here requires such substantial cultural changes I’m not it’s possible without scrapping and starting over. And that’s what I think is necessary, ultimately.
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I’ll add that we have to fix the culture of blanket immunity—the sniveling face of Derek Chauvin spoke volumes about police entitlement and lack of accountability more broadly. Police union protection is one area of reform, and so is the legal system’s treatment of police (e.g., qualified immunity).
But the whole foundation is problematic. It’s become an adversarial system, where police are de facto against the people they’re entrusted to protect. The British model, where officers exist to HELP and KEEP PEACE, generally works—but to do that here requires such substantial cultural changes I’m not it’s possible without scrapping and starting over. And that’s what I think is necessary, ultimately.
Nailed it.
The suggestions by dgies, Hards and MU82 are well-thought and worthwhile, but the real problem is a cultural one. Police in many communities have for decades treated the people they serve like the enemy, and in turn those people treat police like the enemy. It's a lose-lose situation.
Scrapping it and starting over doesn't seem pragmatic or possible (or particularly popular). But I think there are some steps that can be taken to address the culture.
1. Remove incentives for negative interactions with the public. Things like ticket and arrest quotas serve no law enforcement purpose beyond filling department coffers. I don't think cops need extra incentive to arrest or cite people behaving dangerously. That's the job they want to do. Quotas simply force them to find excuses to make arrests or issue citations, or to make them when a warning or some other intervention might be the better solution.
2. End qualified immunity for police. A system that says police can rarely be held accountable for misconduct, to no one's surprise I hope, leads to police misconduct.
3. Provide more support for police officers. Being a cop is obviously an exceptionally stressful job and suicides by police have risen dramatically in recent years. And yet departments are far behind when it comes to providing officers with mental health services and other forms of support. The macho culture that says seeking help is a sign of weakness still very much exists, and cops have a very real fear that doing so will harm their reputations and long-term career prospects.
There's more, but that's a start.
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BODY CAMS!
Be it through federal, state or local funds, every single cop who goes out on assignment must wear and must use a body cam.
The failure to turn on a body cam will result in at least a one-month suspension without pay. If multiple officers are on the same assignment and they all conveniently "forget" to turn on their body cams, it will be assumed they were conspiring in a lie and they will be fired. If an officer claims the body cam malfunctioned and it's discovered he or she was lying, he or she will be fired, and not allowed to be hired again in law enforcement anywhere in the United States.
It's sad, but we no longer can give officers the benefit of the doubt in he said/he said situations. We absolutely need video evidence of every encounter with the public. Period.
This has always been ridiculous to me. I have a dash cam and a rearview cam and it cost me $50. New berlin doesn't even have dash cams in their cruisers, none the less body cams. Imagine how much bs the cops there have gotten away with.
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BODY CAMS!
Be it through federal, state or local funds, every single cop who goes out on assignment must wear and must use a body cam.
The failure to turn on a body cam will result in at least a one-month suspension without pay. If multiple officers are on the same assignment and they all conveniently "forget" to turn on their body cams, it will be assumed they were conspiring in a lie and they will be fired. If an officer claims the body cam malfunctioned and it's discovered he or she was lying, he or she will be fired, and not allowed to be hired again in law enforcement anywhere in the United States.
It's sad, but we no longer can give officers the benefit of the doubt in he said/he said situations. We absolutely need video evidence of every encounter with the public. Period.
Nah, charge for obstruction of justice and destroying evidence on a strict liability standard (no intent required), and a federal civil rights investigation.
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By the way, CT has already passed legislation in response to George Floyd protests within the last month/month & 1/2, which included tackling the immunity question. I'm sure its not perfect, but it is a step.
So this isn't some insurmountable thing -- we can make changes.
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Lots of great ideas by Dgeis and others.
I would add a universal requirement for all police officers to speak out in real time and report misconduct by their colleagues, including supervisors, with 'whistleblower' type protections for all good faith reports and stiff sanctions for failure to report. No more 'I saw him doing bad things, but I couldn't say anything because [insert excuse here].'
To put this in current context, two of the officers (Lane and Kueng) involved in the George Floyd killing were being trained by Chauvin, and the attorney for Lane was quoted as saying "What was my client supposed to do but follow what his training officer said?" The new policy should have a clear answer: He was supposed to tell his training officer that his actions were clearly wrong.
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This has always been ridiculous to me. I have a dash cam and a rearview cam and it cost me $50. New berlin doesn't even have dash cams in their cruisers, none the less body cams. Imagine how much bs the cops there have gotten away with.
The cameras aren't the big expense. The secure storage to hold all of the data is the expense. My understanding is that most (all?) states don't allow for cloud storage since it can be potential evidence.
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By the way, CT has already passed legislation in response to George Floyd protests within the last month/month & 1/2, which included tackling the immunity question. I'm sure its not perfect, but it is a step.
So this isn't some insurmountable thing -- we can make changes.
Was just going to say the same.
I'll add in Community Policing. Reinvented here in New Haven in the mid-90s to address a then high crime rate. It includes old time policing where cops are forced to walk a beat for a full year. No cars allowed. They are instructed to meet everyone on their beat and know who they are. They found that when people know their beat cop, they are most trusting with telling the officer what is going on in the neighborhood.
New Haven abandoned ten years ago and brought back a few years after when they saw crime going up. Crime promptly went back down.
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Fascinating discussion. Some thoughts on what has been said:
1) Community policing, making police officers part of the community and aligning "to serve and protect" with the community is really important. Too often, police become our adversaries. My favorite story is about a time my Dad and I were on Minnesota's North Shore and we were stopped for speeding. The officer had a job to do, which was to promote safety on Mn 61, and he did it in a very friendly and actually appreciative way. He got his point across by laughing with my Dad and reminding me he had "friends" down the highway. If you talk to people and befriend them, you break down barriers. That's the point of the New Haven program and the Chicago CAPS program.
2) Body cams work both ways. Not long ago, residents of a neighborhood in Detroit accused the police of abuse of power for shooting and killing a man who police said had a gun. The neighbors said he was killed for no reason by Detroit Police. A very angry Police Chief pulled out the body cam footage and broadcast the man police killed firing at police officers. The police returned fire. Last time anyone questioned those police officers.
3) Full disclosure: My son desires to become a police officer. He is completing his degree this semester and already has interned with a downstate Illinois police department. He originally was a criminal justice major but switched to social work, for which he will receive a degree. His comment on the switch, "Dad, I don't want to be a lawyer." The point in bringing it up is that his degree probably will be more suited for a patrol officer than a traditional Criminal Justice degree. He'll still have to go to the academy and all, but he's been very active over the years with our community here, has rebuilt homes in low income communities and generally has a sensitivity to people that will serve him well as an officer. As much as I privately growled "s-o-c-i-a-l w-o-r-k...?" I see the value in what he's doing and sometimes will admit Dads can be wrong.
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Was just going to say the same.
I'll add in Community Policing. Reinvented here in New Haven in the mid-90s to address a then high crime rate. It includes old time policing where cops are forced to walk a beat for a full year. No cars allowed. They are instructed to meet everyone on their beat and know who they are. They found that when people know their beat cop, they are most trusting with telling the officer what is going on in the neighborhood.
New Haven abandoned ten years ago and brought back a few years after when they saw crime going up. Crime promptly went back down.
If anyone wants to hear about the man who did this (bring it back), the link is below. I think many MU folks would find it time well spent listening to the piece/interview. This is a man who decided NOT to become a Jesuit priest because he wanted to serve more directly. I think it was meant to be a quick interview, but it was so fascinating to the NPR host that it went on for 12+ mins.
https://www.wnpr.org/post/departing-new-haven-police-chief-speaks-ministry-law-enforcement (https://www.wnpr.org/post/departing-new-haven-police-chief-speaks-ministry-law-enforcement)
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https://www.channel3000.com/illinois-teen-charged-in-kenosha-killings-stalls-return-to-wisconsin/
Ummmmmm what? Any law talking guys around here what the justification could be for this?
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In changing the direction, I'd propose a single question: Many of us are angry at what has happened in Kenosha, as well as in Minneapolis, Atlanta, Chicago (Laquan McDonald) and other places.
What do you think we should do about it? What tangible steps should be taken now to address the grievances and anger that exists in our country. Whether it be by government, churches or the private sector. What should be done?
I'll start:
1) We need to change the way we train police officers. We need to move away from a paramilitary organization first and more toward an community-based organization that's protecting through, in part, involvement in communities. We need an open and free-form discussion between police officers and the communities they serve aimed at building bridges rather than walls.
2) We need to improve police recruitment. We need more Latino, African-American, female, gay and lesbian and Asian police officers. We also need to encourage college graduates to become police officers and tighten minimum educational standards for police officers.
3) We need tighter gun laws that put more control over gun shows, private sales and other non-registered gun sales. That and society should consider tougher prison sentences and harsher enforcement for persons with unregistered firearms in their possession. If we reduce the number of guns on the street, we reduce the fear that police officers live in and relax the apprehension that police have when confronting citizens.
This is a start. I'm sure everyone on both sides of the political spectrum has ideas. What can we do????
In no particular order:
1) Nationwide Public Acknowledgement of Racism, discrimination, abuses of power etc...every police department. Long term efforts to make amends as a top priority. Many people still do not even do the acknowledgement part. Many others say, yeah we know but blah blah.
2) Accountability. What we have been seeing is nothing new. What is new in recent modern times is technology, victims, bystanders, witnesses, recording events in real time which refute false reports and lies. We still can't even get body cameras where needed, We can't even get officers to turn them on etc...Tear down the Blue Wall of Silence. Protests have led to action and charges in some situation's which would not have happened otherwise. "Thank you for your service." We hear that so much when speaking of police, military, etc...I understand and can appreciate the general sentiment but reality is all service is not the same. Everyone is an individual, some good, some bad, some in between.
Access to police records is way too challenging. Disciplined officers, bad apples, often get minimal reprimand and can way too easily stay in the department, switch departments or go to a different force in the same or different state. There needs to be an easy access public database, and a zero tolerance for bad officers. Greatly increased transparency. Broad sunshine laws.
Protect and serve vs create revenue. Many small and very large police departments across the country incentivize revenue creation over protecting and serving the community. This of course means often times, Minority neighborhoods are targeted because they often lack the political power to fight back. Change the incentives to be how many complaints are there against a particular officer, how many times did that officer use force. Reduction of these need to be the incentive not tickets for nonsense targeting minorities. This is a huge issue.
Investigations into police need to come from the outside.
3) Improved training, Racism and racial bias training, Mental Illness training, age appropriate training, mediation training, emotional intelligence training, temperament training. Way better use of force training with the goal being to avoid use of force.
4) Higher standards, higher pay. The amount of training hours to become a police officer is very small.
5) The police officers need to be a reflection of the communities they serve.
6) There are 18,000 police agencies in the United States. More than 15,000 are at the state and local level. Data collection, data sharing is bad. Federal funding can be based on meeting standards and requirements.
In the past 60 years, there have only been 30,000 police officers decertified. Half of those came from three states.
Reward the better officers that are using some of the above mentioned methods. For example, in one city, many protestors would only speak with a specific White officer who is very good at de-esculation, crisis intervention, and whom they would trust to be fair with them because he earned their trust over time in the trenches. They literally ask for him at other protests and locations to help communication and to prevent escalation and diffuse tensions. Need a lot of similar officers.
These are a few things to start.
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https://www.channel3000.com/illinois-teen-charged-in-kenosha-killings-stalls-return-to-wisconsin/
Ummmmmm what? Any law talking guys around here what the justification could be for this?
Not without a copy of the judicial order or even a shred of context surrounding the proceedings. Not a lot of detail to go on in this crack channel3000.com reporting.
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From jsonline:
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/08/28/kyle-rittenhouse-did-not-appear-extradition-kenosha-protest/5653003002/
"Rittenhouse requested to waive his presence at the hearing and for more time so that he could hire his own legal team. A hearing on the status of his extradition has been set for Sept. 25 at 9 a.m."
That makes a little more sense. Procedural delay for him to secure counsel is probably not that atypical when the entire world isn't watching and dissecting everything that's going on.
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From jsonline:
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/08/28/kyle-rittenhouse-did-not-appear-extradition-kenosha-protest/5653003002/
"Rittenhouse requested to waive his presence at the hearing and for more time so that he could hire his own legal team. A hearing on the status of his extradition has been set for Sept. 25 at 9 a.m."
That makes a little more sense. Procedural delay for him to secure counsel is probably not that atypical when the entire world isn't watching and dissecting everything that's going on.
So we are giving a man who shot and killed two people, and wounded another a month to assemble a legal team to see if he should be arrested?
Meanwhile, another man lays paralyzed from the waist down and handcuffed to a hospital bed after being shot 7 times in the back by a police officer.
Justice in America laid bare.
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4) Higher standards, higher pay. The amount of training hours to become a police officer is very small.
I have no argument with more training and higher service standards, that’s very much needed and further emphasis should be given. However, higher pay really depends where you’re looking. I mentioned in a thread awhile ago, average pay, factoring in overtime, for police officers in most major cities is actually quite high. Plenty of officers, not just higher ranking officials, making easily 6 figures. CPD has a base salary of $75K+ after 2 years, not including overtime. NYPD is close to $90K within your first 5 years. I can’t recall MPD, but it’s not much less than Chicago.
Smaller locals have lower lay, but also lower COL. There are plenty of deterrents from people becoming law enforcement and it’s an increasingly difficult job, but compensation really isn’t top of the list.
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From jsonline:
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/08/28/kyle-rittenhouse-did-not-appear-extradition-kenosha-protest/5653003002/
"Rittenhouse requested to waive his presence at the hearing and for more time so that he could hire his own have the NRA form a legal team. A hearing on the status of his extradition has been set for Sept. 25 at 9 a.m."
That makes a little more sense. Procedural delay for him to secure counsel is probably not that atypical when the entire world isn't watching and dissecting everything that's going on.
FIFY
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FIFY
Per JSonline he's going to be defended by the same people who represented the Covington Catholic kid. I'm not sure that's who I'd want were in his shoes.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/08/27/kyle-rittenhouse-defended-fightback-foundation-kenosha-shooting-l-lin-wood-raising-money-gofundme/5650147002/
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So we are giving a man who shot and killed two people, and wounded another a month to assemble a legal team to see if he should be arrested?
Meanwhile, another man lays paralyzed from the waist down and handcuffed to a hospital bed after being shot 7 times in the back by a police officer.
Justice in America laid bare.
Maybe? I mean he's already been arrested and the story didn't say he'd be released pending the next court date. If anyone handles cross-state extradition hearings they could chime in, but generally getting a month or so of an adjournment in a litigation generally isn't somehow weird or atypical. My guess is a statement of "my lawyer is X and he needs time to engage with the case" in normal circumstances that aren't so charged would be met with the professional courtesy from DAs and courts of "yes, that's a reasonable request."
There are a lot of things to be upset about right now, but this procedural delay seems like it shouldn't suck the oxygen out of the room full of other more serious things that ought to occupy our attention.
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So we are giving a man who shot and killed two people, and wounded another a month to assemble a legal team to see if he should be arrested?
Meanwhile, another man lays paralyzed from the waist down and handcuffed to a hospital bed after being shot 7 times in the back by a police officer.
Justice in America laid bare.
He's already been arrested and charged, and is being held in detention, where he will remain until at least his next court appearance.
The issue for now is extradition. He has the legal right to challenge - though there's zero chance of success - and to have counsel represent him in that challenge.
Of course, had the cops in Kenosha taken him into custody Tuesday night rather than send him on his merry way, extradition wouldn't be an issue.
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Protect and serve vs create revenue. Many small and very large police departments across the country incentivize revenue creation over protecting and serving the community. This of course means often times, Minority neighborhoods are targeted because they often lack the political power to fight back. Change the incentives to be how many complaints are there against a particular officer, how many times did that officer use force. Reduction of these need to be the incentive not tickets for nonsense targeting minorities. This is a huge issue.
Boy is this one true. I call most Suburban Chicago Police "Municipal Revenue Officers," since that's their primary job. To Brother Shoothoops' point, why do you think speed cams and stoplight cams exist? The police say, "to deter violations." But in our community, the Libertyville Police set one up on Milwaukee Avenue where Libertyville is on one side and Vernon Hills on another.
If it was about enforcement and reduction in violations, the Libertyville Village Board would divide the spoils with Vernon Hills, which is on the west side of the intersection, and the State of Illinois, which actually owns and maintains Milwaukee Avenue (IL 21). Did they do that? Of course not.
In another case, I served on a jury several years ago in which an African American woman was accused of battery against a Gurnee Police officer. She and her companion were stopped in the village of Gurnee for suspicion of driving while intoxicated. When she tried to close a car door, the policeman slipped his hand between the car and door latch to keep it open so he could have reason to search the car. The door slammed on the officer's hand and the woman was arrested for battery.
The police officer was not credible. We heard the evidence and concluded, as a jury, that the woman was really charged with "Operating a Motor Vehicle in the Village of Gurnee while being black." On our way out, the questions we asked the prosecutors were, "why did you waste the taxpayers money with this ridiculous charge," and "what did you owe the Gurnee PD that was settled with this prosecution?"
It's crap like the Gurnee case that causes African-Americans and many of the rest of us to distrust the police.
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Nailed it.
The suggestions by dgies, Hards and MU82 are well-thought and worthwhile, but the real problem is a cultural one. Police in many communities have for decades treated the people they serve like the enemy, and in turn those people treat police like the enemy. It's a lose-lose situation.
Scrapping it and starting over doesn't seem pragmatic or possible (or particularly popular). But I think there are some steps that can be taken to address the culture.
1. Remove incentives for negative interactions with the public. Things like ticket and arrest quotas serve no law enforcement purpose beyond filling department coffers. I don't think cops need extra incentive to arrest or cite people behaving dangerously. That's the job they want to do. Quotas simply force them to find excuses to make arrests or issue citations, or to make them when a warning or some other intervention might be the better solution.
2. End qualified immunity for police. A system that says police can rarely be held accountable for misconduct, to no one's surprise I hope, leads to police misconduct.
3. Provide more support for police officers. Being a cop is obviously an exceptionally stressful job and suicides by police have risen dramatically in recent years. And yet departments are far behind when it comes to providing officers with mental health services and other forms of support. The macho culture that says seeking help is a sign of weakness still very much exists, and cops have a very real fear that doing so will harm their reputations and long-term career prospects.
There's more, but that's a start.
Other than the immunity piece, removing the negative engagement incentive from policing is the biggest change that could be made generally (I think there are race specific changes that could be more impactful from a BLM perspective but those are more nuanced than I'm educated to articulate).
To me, this is one of the undisclosed scourges in local communities. Policing has become a funding model for local government, either to pay for itself or to help prop up the coffers for each municipality. Instead of handling finance (taxation and cost of services) in a direct format, local governments for years have been playing shell games by generating indirect funds through things like policing, fines, etc. As a second order effect of local governments not being forth wright with their citizens, police organizations have been put into situations that start as a negative engagement and then bad policing makes it worse......and we see the result.
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I have no argument with more training and higher service standards, that’s very much needed and further emphasis should be given. However, higher pay really depends where you’re looking. I mentioned in a thread awhile ago, average pay, factoring in overtime, for police officers in most major cities is actually quite high. Plenty of officers, not just higher ranking officials, making easily 6 figures. CPD has a base salary of $75K+ after 2 years, not including overtime. NYPD is close to $90K within your first 5 years. I can’t recall MPD, but it’s not much less than Chicago.
Smaller locals have lower lay, but also lower COL. There are plenty of deterrents from people becoming law enforcement and it’s an increasingly difficult job, but compensation really isn’t top of the list.
It's included within a long list of things because in order to recruit quality you have to be and remain competitive with compensation in order to attract that quality which is what I posted. (I am aware of various police overtime practices, abuses, and scandals across the country which is a longstanding problem)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewdepietro/2020/04/23/police-officer-salary-state/
What are your specific ideas for police reform?
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Early prediction:
The shooter from Tuesday night will plea out with no murder conviction or go to trial and be acquitted on murder charges. He'll plea out on lesser charges or will be convicted of less charges but murder won't be one of them. At best it'll be manslaughter.
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wouldn't it be really informative if we could hear from someone who has experience in law enforcement? if we have or someone has identified as such, i apologize as i haven't read over all 400 posts here. i'm sure some of this input is nice in theory, but it's easy for any one of us to sit back here and throw "feel good" stuff out there without any real practical experience.
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Early prediction:
The shooter from Tuesday night will plea out with no murder conviction or go to trial and be acquitted on murder charges. He'll plea out on lesser charges or will be convicted of less charges but murder won't be one of them. At best it'll be manslaughter.
"Manslaughter" isn't a thing in Wisconsin.
There's intentional homicide (1st or 2nd degree), which requires (I know it's obvious) intent.
"whoever causes the death of another human being with intent to kill that person or another is guilty of a Class A felony." Wis. Stat. 940.01
There's reckless homicide (1st or 2nd degree), which does not require intent.
"Whoever recklessly causes the death of another human being under circumstances which show utter disregard for human life is guilty of a Class B felony." Wis. Stat 940.02.
In common parlance, reckless homicide is Wisconsin's version of manslaughter, and Rittenhouse has been charged with 1 count of it.
Practically speaking, he's looking at a mandatory life in prison sentence for the 1st degree intentional homicide charge, and Wisconsin has one of the strictest truth in sentencing acts, so he'd have nothing to gain by pleading to that. He takes a plea on everything else and drops down off the mandatory life, and he could still breathe free air again.
We'll see.
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"Manslaughter" isn't a thing in Wisconsin.
There's intentional homicide (1st or 2nd degree), which requires (I know it's obvious) intent.
"whoever causes the death of another human being with intent to kill that person or another is guilty of a Class A felony." Wis. Stat. 940.01
There's reckless homicide (1st or 2nd degree), which does not require intent.
"Whoever recklessly causes the death of another human being under circumstances which show utter disregard for human life is guilty of a Class B felony." Wis. Stat 940.02.
In common parlance, reckless homicide is Wisconsin's version of manslaughter, and Rittenhouse has been charged with 1 count of it.
Practically speaking, he's looking at a mandatory life in prison sentence for the 1st degree intentional homicide charge, and Wisconsin has one of the strictest truth in sentencing acts, so he'd have nothing to gain by pleading to that. He takes a plea on everything else and drops down off the mandatory life, and he could still breathe free air again.
We'll see.
I fear this kid is going to be used as a prop by both sides of this culture war, neither of which will tolerate a reasonable plea deal. The right would rather see him convicted and sent to prison for life, giving them a martyr. The left would rather see him walk free and serve as an example of racial injustice.
The only hope here is he gets a lawyer who serves his interests, and not a cause ... which seems unlikely from the rumblings out there.
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So we are giving a man who shot and killed two people, and wounded another a month to assemble a legal team to see if he should be arrested?
Meanwhile, another man lays paralyzed from the waist down and handcuffed to a hospital bed after being shot 7 times in the back by a police officer.
Justice in America laid bare.
It's not like he's sitting at his house laying in his pool. He's sitting in a cell. If he was at a hospital he would be handcuffed to a bad.
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I fear this kid is going to be used as a prop by both sides of this culture war, neither of which will tolerate a reasonable plea deal. The right would rather see him convicted and sent to prison for life, giving them a martyr. The left would rather see him walk free and serve as an example of racial injustice.
The only hope here is he gets a lawyer who serves his interests, and not a cause ... which seems unlikely from the rumblings out there.
You're right. He needs objective and competent counsel and he needs it yesterday.
The internet lawyers rallying to his defense are claiming self-defense. He needs someone well-versed in making such arguments in Wisconsin to advise him as to whether he has a legitimate argument there. Hanging one's life on that defense is heckuva roll of the dice. I'd sure want to know my odds before going through with that bet.
The Kenosha DA also runs the risk of getting George Zimmerman-ed (IMHO that was overcharged due to political pressure and DA ambition, resulting in an acquittal on the stricter intent-based charge). I hope the DA has the wisdom necessary to evaluate charge, penalty, and plea in a way that is objective and reasonable.
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Continuing the extradition to obtain legal counsel of one’s choice is not unusual. Everyone is entitled to due process.
I am not up on Wisconsin law, but I assume these are preliminary charges to move the process along. I would bet that in the end he may well be charged with a combination of murder, reckless homicide and weapons charges.
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It's not like he's sitting at his house laying in his pool. He's sitting in a cell. If he was at a hospital he would be handcuffed to a bad.
Yeah others made that clear, I wasn't aware because the original article I posted did not make that clear. Mea Culpa for not reading further first.
What I don't understand from a procedural standpoint, is how Rittenhouse can be arrested and charged, but the extradition be delayed. Is this common?
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Yeah others made that clear, I wasn't aware because the original article I posted did not make that clear. Mea Culpa for not reading further first.
What I don't understand from a procedural standpoint, is how Rittenhouse can be arrested and charged, but the extradition be delayed. Is this common?
It's generally not common to oppose extradition because it's a losing fight 99.9 percent of the time, especially interstate extradition, which is a bit of an anachronism (as opposed to international extradition).
Of course, the kid probably won't end up fighting it. So really this is just about him being given time to secure counsel. A month is a long time for that, but since he's in detention it really doesn't matter much. Unless the Kenosha Militia has plans to break him out (and I wouldn't put it past them), he's not going anywhere.
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You're right. He needs objective and competent counsel and he needs it yesterday.
The internet lawyers rallying to his defense are claiming self-defense. He needs someone well-versed in making such arguments in Wisconsin to advise him as to whether he has a legitimate argument there. Hanging one's life on that defense is heckuva roll of the dice. I'd sure want to know my odds before going through with that bet.
The Kenosha DA also runs the risk of getting George Zimmerman-ed (IMHO that was overcharged due to political pressure and DA ambition, resulting in an acquittal on the stricter intent-based charge). I hope the DA has the wisdom necessary to evaluate charge, penalty, and plea in a way that is objective and reasonable.
This is largely the point I was trying to make with the early prediction (you did so from a much more eloquent and informed base), outside influences will be demanding the harshest form of charging (not recognizing the import of intent) where another group will push for full dismissal (arguing self defense). The DA is going to have to thread the needle of what he can win on in court and what will "satisfy" the outside influences.
The very politicization of this event will make achieving the correct justice outcome much harder (ie those who are rightly seeking justice risk making that justice difficult to achieve by pushing for it).
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The cameras aren't the big expense. The secure storage to hold all of the data is the expense. My understanding is that most (all?) states don't allow for cloud storage since it can be potential evidence.
You would think that would be the deterrent.
However in real life it's used by new Berlin and other similar municipalities to boost their coffers.
If you have enough low level crime and traffic violations (trespassing, resisting, DUIs, etc) that could easily be explained away with cameras, now become bank for the city as the crimes/violations aren't enough to pay a lawyer for defense.
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Support for Black Lives Matter declining according to Marquette poll.
https://rpubs.com/PollsAndVotes/652966
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Support for Black Lives Matter declining according to Marquette poll.
https://rpubs.com/PollsAndVotes/652966
Just worth noting that this is a poll of 800 Wisconsinites, not national.
And it also shows something else noteworthy.
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Per JSonline he's going to be defended by the same people who represented the Covington Catholic kid. I'm not sure that's who I'd want were in his shoes.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/08/27/kyle-rittenhouse-defended-fightback-foundation-kenosha-shooting-l-lin-wood-raising-money-gofundme/5650147002/
Was there any doubt that these people would try to make a hero out of this kid. Fox News was in early defending him. Many more will follow.
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2) Body cams work both ways. Not long ago, residents of a neighborhood in Detroit accused the police of abuse of power for shooting and killing a man who police said had a gun. The neighbors said he was killed for no reason by Detroit Police. A very angry Police Chief pulled out the body cam footage and broadcast the man police killed firing at police officers. The police returned fire. Last time anyone questioned those police officers.
Good. I want the cops to be protected, too. I hope all of us do.
3) Full disclosure: My son desires to become a police officer.
Also good. We need more good cops, and I am going to start from the assumption that he will be just that. I wish him a great, safe, satisfying career of public service.
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Just worth noting that this is a poll of 800 Wisconsinites, not national.
And it also shows something else noteworthy.
Here is another confirming the same trend at least among white americans and insight as to why.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/support-for-black-lives-matter-surged-during-protests-but-is-waning-among-white-americans/
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Here is another confirming the same trend at least among white americans and insight as to why.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/support-for-black-lives-matter-surged-during-protests-but-is-waning-among-white-americans/
This isn't news.
The "trend" of some white americans not believing black lives matter has been evident for roughly 400 years.
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Eliminating for-profit prisons would go a long way
The profit motive to incarcerate people highly influences how laws are written which then incentivizes a lot of police interaction where none need be.
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Early prediction:
The shooter from Tuesday night will plea out with no murder conviction or go to trial and be acquitted on murder charges. He'll plea out on lesser charges or will be convicted of less charges but murder won't be one of them. At best it'll be manslaughter.
I'm not sure he will ever really face jail time. He is already being highlighted as a hero by some in certain political circles.
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I'm not sure he will ever really face jail time. He is already being highlighted as a hero by some in certain political circles.
It'll depend completely on the 1st death's outcome. I'd believe it could be argued self defense for the other two.
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It'll depend completely on the 1st death's outcome. I'd believe it could be argued self defense for the other two.
I'm not sure self defense will stick. He was, ostensibly, defending himself from people who believed him to be an active shooter... which he was.
This obviously, not a lawyer opinion, but I've formed my bias and I'd like to share. 8-)
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He's my hero!
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I'm not sure self defense will stick. He was, ostensibly, defending himself from people who believed him to be an active shooter... which he was.
This obviously, not a lawyer opinion, but I've formed my bias and I'd like to share. 8-)
But the first shooting can likely be in question too. From video, the first victim was belligerent and pursued him before being shot. There are no winners here, and this kid was looking for trouble and found it, but it doesn’t clearly appear that it started from him shooting an innocent person minding their business.
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I'm not sure self defense will stick. He was, ostensibly, defending himself from people who believed him to be an active shooter... which he was.
This obviously, not a lawyer opinion, but I've formed my bias and I'd like to share. 8-)
What effect will the fact that he was illegally carrying a gun when he committed murder have on this?
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Tough to find a much better encapsulation of white privilege than castle doctrine applying everywhere.
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https://twitter.com/sarasidnercnn/status/1299425648797249536
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I'm not sure self defense will stick. He was, ostensibly, defending himself from people who believed him to be an active shooter... which he was.
This obviously, not a lawyer opinion, but I've formed my bias and I'd like to share. 8-)
I've now gone up to and toe-d over the line of what I've got professional insight into, but I'm fairly certain that you forfeit your ability to claim self defense when you instigate the response you're defending yourself from.
e.g., I incite you to attack me, then I defend myself by committing battery against you, I don't know if my battery is privileged by my claim of self defense.
But again, to whomever focused in on the first shooting, that's the lynchpin. If he wasn't defending himself in Shooting 1, then he caused the response he was defending himself against Shooting 2.
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Re self defense, my understanding is you can only respond with the amount of force that you are in danger of. Aka if someone is trying to punch you, you can't use deadly force. Now I haven't seen the original video but it would seem that if people were trying to apprehend him after the first shooting that his life wasn't in danger and thus he has no reasonable case for shooting to kill.
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What effect will the fact that he was illegally carrying a gun when he committed murder have on this?
I've been trying to figure out the magnitude of the crimes he committed before hand. We know he was a minor in possession of a firearm (misdemeanor: Wisconsin; unknown Illinois). He crossed state lines with a firearm illegally (unknown magnitude). He possessed a firearm illegally, while also breaking curfew (unknown magnitude).
If any of his offenses rises to the level of a felony. Then he's sunk, as a person died during the commission of a felony. If not, the fact that people are already treating him as a hero in some circles may mean he doesn't face punishment.
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Re self defense, my understanding is you can only respond with the amount of force that you are in danger of. Aka if someone is trying to punch you, you can't use deadly force. Now I haven't seen the original video but it would seem that if people were trying to apprehend him after the first shooting that his life wasn't in danger and thus he has no reasonable case for shooting to kill.
It will all depend on how the 1st death is viewed. If its murder, then self defense for the other two is out the window. If its viewed self defense, the other two will be as well.
If we completely ignore the first part, being tackled by 3 people and getting clocked in the head with a skateboard would be viewed as able to use deadly force.
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I've been trying to figure out the magnitude of the crimes he committed before hand. We know he was a minor in possession of a firearm (misdemeanor: Wisconsin; unknown Illinois). He crossed state lines with a firearm illegally (unknown magnitude). He possessed a firearm illegally, while also breaking curfew (unknown magnitude).
If any of his offenses rises to the level of a felony. Then he's sunk, as a person died during the commission of a felony. If not, the fact that people are already treating him as a hero in some circles may mean he doesn't face punishment.
If he goes unpunished, the events of the last few days in Kenosha will pale in comparison to what will happen.
I pray that isn't how this case goes.
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Let the trial take place.
Seems like we are hitting mob mentality if truth and justice can't prevail.
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Throwing this out there for the sake of information because those of you in WI are going to hear a whole hell of a lot about it:
"The recent officer-involved shooting in Kenosha has produced a variety of feelings and narratives; most of which are wholly inaccurate. The purely fictional depiction of events coming from those without direct knowledge of what actually occurred is incredibly harmful, and provides no benefit to anyone whatsoever, other than to perpetuate a misleading narrative.
The lawyers for Mr. Blake, among others, have continued to provide false and misleading “facts” to the public, in what can only be considered a ploy for attention and sympathy. Unfortunately, even the incident update from the Wisconsin Department of Justice, Division of Criminal Investigation (“DCI”) -- the agency charged with investigating the incident independently -- is riddled with incomplete information, and omits important details that would help to paint a more complete picture of the incident. While DCI updated that release earlier today (8/28/20), it is still lacking.
The Kenosha Professional Police Association, including the officers involved, believe the public deserves to know the truth.
Here are the actual and undisputed facts:
-The officers were dispatched to the location due to a complaint that Mr. Blake was attempting to steal the caller’s keys/vehicle.
-Officers were aware of Mr. Blake’s open warrant for felony sexual assault (3rd degree) before they arrived on scene.
-Mr. Blake was not breaking up a fight between two females when officers arrived on scene.
-The silver SUV seen in the widely circulated video was not Mr. Blake’s vehicle.
-Mr. Blake was not unarmed. He was armed with a knife. The officers did not see the knife initially. The officers first saw him holding the knife while they were on the passenger side of the vehicle. The “main” video circulating on the internet shows Mr. Blake with the knife in his left hand when he rounds the front of the car. The officers issued repeated commands for Mr. Blake to drop the knife. He did not comply.
-The officers initially tried to speak with Mr. Blake, but he was uncooperative.
-The officers then began issuing verbal commands to Mr. Blake, but he was non-complaint.
-The officers next went “hands-on” with Mr. Blake, so as to gain compliance and control.
-Mr. Blake actively resisted the officers’ attempt to gain compliance.
-The officers then disengaged and drew their tasers, issuing commands to Mr. Blake that he would be tased if he did not comply.
-Based on his non-compliance, one officer tased Mr. Blake. The taser did not incapacitate Mr. Blake.
-The officers once more went “hands-on” with Mr. Blake; again, trying to gain control of the escalating situation.
-Mr. Blake forcefully fought with the officers, including putting one of the officers in a headlock.
-A second taser (from a different officer than had deployed the initial taser) was then deployed on Mr. Blake. It did not appear to have any impact on him.
-Based on the inability to gain compliance and control after using verbal, physical and less-lethal means, the officers drew their firearms.
-Mr. Blake continued to ignore the officers’ commands, even with the threat of lethal force now present.
The foregoing facts need to be added to the story to correct what is currently out there. As the uncontested facts above demonstrate, the officers involved gave Mr. Blake numerous opportunities to comply. He chose not to. None of the officers involved wished for things to transpire the way it did. It is my hope that truth and transparency will help begin and aid in the healing process.
Thank you.
Brendan P. Matthews
CERMELE & MATTHEWS, S.C.
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I've now gone up to and toe-d over the line of what I've got professional insight into, but I'm fairly certain that you forfeit your ability to claim self defense when you instigate the response you're defending yourself from.
e.g., I incite you to attack me, then I defend myself by committing battery against you, I don't know if my battery is privileged by my claim of self defense.
But again, to whomever focused in on the first shooting, that's the lynchpin. If he wasn't defending himself in Shooting 1, then he caused the response he was defending himself against Shooting 2.
Does the fact that he was ostensibly committing a crime during that act of self defense make a difference even if self defense would have OTHERWISE been a legitimate argument?
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So he had a knife the whole time? He put a cop in a headlock while holding a knife?Cops went 'hands on' twice with a guy holding a knife? Cops grabbed a man amed with a knife by his T-shirt as he walked away?
None of that account makes sense. Perhaps it's just poorly written.
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So he had a knife the whole time? He put a cop in a headlock while holding a knife?Cops went 'hands on' twice with a guy holding a knife? Cops grabbed a man amed with a knife by his T-shirt as he walked away?
None of that account makes sense. Perhaps it's just poorly written.
It's written as a PR document - not a legal one.
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Throwing this out there for the sake of information because those of you in WI are going to hear a whole hell of a lot about it:
"The recent officer-involved shooting in Kenosha has produced a variety of feelings and narratives; most of which are wholly inaccurate. The purely fictional depiction of events coming from those without direct knowledge of what actually occurred is incredibly harmful, and provides no benefit to anyone whatsoever, other than to perpetuate a misleading narrative.
The lawyers for Mr. Blake, among others, have continued to provide false and misleading “facts” to the public, in what can only be considered a ploy for attention and sympathy. Unfortunately, even the incident update from the Wisconsin Department of Justice, Division of Criminal Investigation (“DCI”) -- the agency charged with investigating the incident independently -- is riddled with incomplete information, and omits important details that would help to paint a more complete picture of the incident. While DCI updated that release earlier today (8/28/20), it is still lacking.
The Kenosha Professional Police Association, including the officers involved, believe the public deserves to know the truth.
Here are the actual and undisputed facts:
-The officers were dispatched to the location due to a complaint that Mr. Blake was attempting to steal the caller’s keys/vehicle.
-Officers were aware of Mr. Blake’s open warrant for felony sexual assault (3rd degree) before they arrived on scene.
-Mr. Blake was not breaking up a fight between two females when officers arrived on scene.
-The silver SUV seen in the widely circulated video was not Mr. Blake’s vehicle.
-Mr. Blake was not unarmed. He was armed with a knife. The officers did not see the knife initially. The officers first saw him holding the knife while they were on the passenger side of the vehicle. The “main” video circulating on the internet shows Mr. Blake with the knife in his left hand when he rounds the front of the car. The officers issued repeated commands for Mr. Blake to drop the knife. He did not comply.
-The officers initially tried to speak with Mr. Blake, but he was uncooperative.
-The officers then began issuing verbal commands to Mr. Blake, but he was non-complaint.
-The officers next went “hands-on” with Mr. Blake, so as to gain compliance and control.
-Mr. Blake actively resisted the officers’ attempt to gain compliance.
-The officers then disengaged and drew their tasers, issuing commands to Mr. Blake that he would be tased if he did not comply.
-Based on his non-compliance, one officer tased Mr. Blake. The taser did not incapacitate Mr. Blake.
-The officers once more went “hands-on” with Mr. Blake; again, trying to gain control of the escalating situation.
-Mr. Blake forcefully fought with the officers, including putting one of the officers in a headlock.
-A second taser (from a different officer than had deployed the initial taser) was then deployed on Mr. Blake. It did not appear to have any impact on him.
-Based on the inability to gain compliance and control after using verbal, physical and less-lethal means, the officers drew their firearms.
-Mr. Blake continued to ignore the officers’ commands, even with the threat of lethal force now present.
The foregoing facts need to be added to the story to correct what is currently out there. As the uncontested facts above demonstrate, the officers involved gave Mr. Blake numerous opportunities to comply. He chose not to. None of the officers involved wished for things to transpire the way it did. It is my hope that truth and transparency will help begin and aid in the healing process.
Thank you.
Brendan P. Matthews
CERMELE & MATTHEWS, S.C.
Really? You are telling us to trust the police version of events?
PT Barnum just smiled in his grave. Still collecting converts this many years later.
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It's written as a PR document - not a legal one.
Yes, I'm aware. But even a PR document should have some semblance of logic to it. This seems not to.
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Maybe. Feels like XXXL Depends.
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Am I the only one who finds it odd that the police union has released a statement of the ‘facts’ before the police department or city?
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Am I the only one who finds it odd that the police union has released a statement of the ‘facts’ before the police department or city?
It’s not odd if you have read about police unions.
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Really? You are telling us to trust the police version of events?
PT Barnum just smiled in his grave. Still collecting converts this many years later.
No. I’m posting it because it’s what the other side is running with.
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Live in the area, under curfew, but do not live close to the protest. Have been following this close ever since Monday when I couldn't buy groceries after work because they closed to board up.
Everything about the situation is tragic and I am glad Blake is alive. There are still a lot of facts that need to come out, but the biggest questions are around the knife. A witness has stated Blake said he had a knife, Blake's attorney said he did not. All the WI DCI has stated was a knife was found on the floorboards of the car. So either the officer walked behind Blake who was armed with a knife and only shot him in the back after he got to the car or the knife was in the car and he was shot in the back. Any scenario he is shot in the back, which is plain wrong.
Related:
Blake was uncuffed from his hospital bed after his $500 bail was posted for his May incident.
Rittenhouse is being held by IL as a fugitive of justice. His delayed extradition was granted by an IL judge as he retains counsel for his next hearing. With his current WI charges he is facing a mandatory life sentence. At the press conference today, it was asked if his mother drove him to Kenosha. A lot more details still need to come out. I could see a plea deal, but do think he will get serious time. In my opinion, WI is in no rush to bring him here. The last thing we need is protestors for his release. Antioch implemented a curfew just due to his arrest.
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'Other side'. Sigh.
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What’s amazing is that even the police union’s bogus facts STILL don’t justify the decision to shoot him.
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If he goes unpunished, the events of the last few days in Kenosha will pale in comparison to what will happen.
I pray that isn't how this case goes.
His attorneys are now saying he didn't cross state lines with the weapon.
That means, someone illegally gave a 17 year old an AR-15 that was used in a fatal shooting. If true, that person is in trouble.
Also, that would mean he dumped the weapon before going back to Illinois. That would also imply hiding/attempting to destroy evidence. Does not sound like an innocent person who defended himself.
Also, the first person he shot, was apparently shot in the back, and groin. Shooting someone in the back does not sound like self defense.
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Shooting someone in the back does not sound like self defense.
Unless you're the police!
Too soon?
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Also, the first person he shot, was apparently shot in the back, and groin. Shooting someone in the back does not sound like self defense.
Where did you see this by chance? Not doubting you but everything said the first victim was shot in the head, and the video/stills I saw showed a man bleeding from the head and a crude t shirt wrap being placed around his head
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Old one, but still applicable:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42277309?fbclid=IwAR0KeM29bRqQ7Pu5rVZANQCynT1Y4cYIr6zAnJYj58nJk3D_ekF8U7mvImw
Sad.
BLM. If only they'd comply/follow orders:
https://twitter.com/ShannonSharpe/status/1299427348211625984?s=19
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It will all depend on how the 1st death is viewed. If its murder, then self defense for the other two is out the window. If its viewed self defense, the other two will be as well.
If we completely ignore the first part, being tackled by 3 people and getting clocked in the head with a skateboard would be viewed as able to use deadly force.
He murdered a man who was trying to stop him after the 1st murder. Hardly self defense.
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Where did you see this by chance? Not doubting you but everything said the first victim was shot in the head, and the video/stills I saw showed a man bleeding from the head and a crude t shirt wrap being placed around his head
The second man was shot in the head.
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The second man was shot in the head.
I don’t think this is correct. The first victim was shot in the head during the first chase of the shooter. The second death was the skateboarder who was hitting him on the head with a skateboard. The third who didn’t die was also armed, which will be interesting to see how that plays out.
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https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/kenosha-militia-facebook-reported-455-times-moderators
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The second man was shot in the head.
No he was shot in the chest, clearly shown on the video. He staggered away holding his chest before he fell.
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It is my understanding that he shot three people based on reports I have seen and read.
It is being reported he first shot and killed one person, and, after that he was recorded being chased by a few people after this first shooting.
This would be the video including one with a skateboard where the suspect falls to the ground and gets up and shoots the two people. This is the part of the video where he shoots two people quickly, killing one and injuring another.
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No he was shot in the chest, clearly shown on the video. He staggered away holding his chest before he fell.
Yes, you are correct. That was the skateboarder who was among a group of people trying to stop him after the 1st murder.
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Where did you see this by chance? Not doubting you but everything said the first victim was shot in the head, and the video/stills I saw showed a man bleeding from the head and a crude t shirt wrap being placed around his head
https://www.foxnews.com/us/accused-kenosha-shooters-lawyer-claims-self-defense-amid-new-video
The article refers to the coroner report and the first victim being shot in the groin and back.
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https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/kenosha-militia-facebook-reported-455-times-moderators
"Our bad, again. We could easily and relatively cheaply rid our social media of the bad apples, but it would hurt our profit margins. So, we won't. But we will apologize each time someone sheds light on our crapty business practices.
PS. Thanks for making us so rich."
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If anyone wants to hear about the man who did this (bring it back), the link is below. I think many MU folks would find it time well spent listening to the piece/interview. This is a man who decided NOT to become a Jesuit priest because he wanted to serve more directly. I think it was meant to be a quick interview, but it was so fascinating to the NPR host that it went on for 12+ mins.
url=https://www.wnpr.org/post/departing-new-haven-police-chief-speaks-ministry-law-enforcement]https://www.wnpr.org/post/departing-new-haven-police-chief-speaks-ministry-law-enforcement[/url
Very powerful clip from The Wire. Must watch for those who haven't seen it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA5za4VsskM
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"Our bad, again. We could easily and relatively cheaply rid our social media of the bad apples, but it would hurt our profit margins. So, we won't. But we will apologize each time someone sheds light on our crapty business practices.
PS. Thanks for making us so rich."
I despise that greedy little unnatural carnal knowledge weasel.
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Anyone need to see a video of Kyle Rittenhouse punching a girl in the head from behind?
Because that video exists.
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Anyone need to see a video of Kyle Rittenhouse punching a girl in the head from behind?
Because that video exists.
Sure did and it was much more than one punch. He lost it.
Would something like that be admissible in his trial if they're trying to paint a picture of him as violent with a short fuse?
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Seems like a fine young man. One can see why some are painting him as a martyr and a patriot.
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Sure did and it was much more than one punch. He lost it.
Would something like that be admissible in his trial if they're trying to paint a picture of him as violent with a short fuse?
Not likely.
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Sure did and it was much more than one punch. He lost it.
Would something like that be admissible in his trial if they're trying to paint a picture of him as violent with a short fuse?
No clue if it’s matters in court for the defense team but everyone else involved in the incident had a criminal record.
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from the journel-sentinal-
" A witness told investigators Rittenhouse shot the man when he grabbed for Rittenhouse's gun."
not sure how this would play out for a jury, but if rosenbaum get's rittenhouse' gun, i'm pretty sure his fate would have been that of rosenbaum. rittenhouse was the one being chased and something thrown at him.
as for the skate boarder(huber)-rittenhouse was hit with the skateboard and attempt was made to grab his gun
grosskreutz(who was shot in the arm) was armed with a handgun. whether or not it was real and/or loaded, is the question. why he did not use it, is a question i have not seen answered
1st degree murder is a lazy "overcharge" to placate the opposition. if (it will) fail, it just emboldens the rioters and we will see kenosha burn II. it is irresponsible of the media to get many of the previously unreported facts out days after gov evers and his lt gov. mandela barnes already made their inflammatory remarks.
Wisconsin Lt. Gov. Mandela Barnes said Monday the police shooting of a Black man by Kenosha officers "wasn't an accident," after the man was shot seven times in the back "in front of his children."
"This wasn't bad police work," Barnes said in an address Monday. "This felt like some sort of vendetta taken out on a member of our community."
"Speaking alongside Wisconsin Gov. Tony Evers, Barnes said "the irony isn't lost on me that Jacob Blake was actually trying to deescalate a situation in his community, but the responding officer didn't feel the need to do the same."
Evers on Sunday night condemned the shooting of the man, saying in a statement that “while we do not have all of the details yet, what we know for certain is that he is not the first Black man or person to have been shot or injured or mercilessly killed at the hands of individuals in law enforcement in our state or our country.”
as leaders of our state, they owe it to the public to do better. many innocent people were affected by these comments
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from the journel-sentinal-
" A witness told investigators Rittenhouse shot the man when he grabbed for Rittenhouse's gun."
not sure how this would play out for a jury, but if rosenbaum get's rittenhouse' gun, i'm pretty sure his fate would have been that of rosenbaum. rittenhouse was the one being chased and something thrown at him.
as for the skate boarder(huber)-rittenhouse was hit with the skateboard and attempt was made to grab his gun
grosskreutz(who was shot in the arm) was armed with a handgun. whether or not it was real and/or loaded, is the question. why he did not use it, is a question i have not seen answered
1st degree murder is a lazy "overcharge" to placate the opposition. if (it will) fail, it just emboldens the rioters and we will see kenosha burn II. it is irresponsible of the media to get many of the previously unreported facts out days after gov evers and his lt gov. mandela barnes already made their inflammatory remarks.
Wisconsin Lt. Gov. Mandela Barnes said Monday the police shooting of a Black man by Kenosha officers "wasn't an accident," after the man was shot seven times in the back "in front of his children."
"This wasn't bad police work," Barnes said in an address Monday. "This felt like some sort of vendetta taken out on a member of our community."
"Speaking alongside Wisconsin Gov. Tony Evers, Barnes said "the irony isn't lost on me that Jacob Blake was actually trying to deescalate a situation in his community, but the responding officer didn't feel the need to do the same."
Evers on Sunday night condemned the shooting of the man, saying in a statement that “while we do not have all of the details yet, what we know for certain is that he is not the first Black man or person to have been shot or injured or mercilessly killed at the hands of individuals in law enforcement in our state or our country.”
as leaders of our state, they owe it to the public to do better. many innocent people were affected by these comments
From other media sources, the witness was a journalist from a far-right news organization.
Also, you had Rittenhouse, armed with a rifle and by other accounts antagonizing and confronting protestors. At what point, can those being antagonized and confronted claim self-defense? Rittenhouse is the one who came to a protest to confront protestors, armed himself illegally, decided to maintain those illegal arms while violating curfews (breaking more laws), then confront protestors. The kid is a murderer.
So is the left-wing protestor who shot and killed a far-right white nationalist in Portland last night after a confrontation.
They are both criminals who should be punished to the full extent of the law. That prominent conservatives are calling a murderer a hero, and donating hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend him is abhorrent and disgusting. The fact that we have a president's advisor saying that the violence is good for Trump, and then Trump constantly fanning the flames of violence is a disgrace.
Since when is "Law and Order" encouraging violence? Encouraging armed vigilantes from entering protests and instigating confrontations? When is "Law and Order" defending an illegally armed vigilante gunning down and murdering 2 people?
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A 17 year old with a borrowed AR-15. Crossing state lines to confront protesters. Given a water bottle when interacting with the police. When he finally is confronted by protesters, he shoots them.
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A 17 year old with a borrowed AR-15. Crossing state lines to confront protesters. Given a water bottle when interacting with the police. When he finally is confronted by protesters, he shoots them.
Stop. It's pretty obvious he traveled 20+ miles from home, armed himself with a military rifle and patrolled the streets of a city where he doesn't live because he feared for his life.
I mean, just because a guy puts on boxing gloves and steps into a ring, it doesn't mean he's looking for a fight.
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Oh, he is the definition of outside agitator. Who came looking for trouble and found it.
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Very fine people on both sides of this, obviously.
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Obviously. Build him a statue.
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A 17 year old with a borrowed AR-15. Crossing state lines to confront protesters. Given a water bottle when interacting with the police. When he finally is confronted by protesters, he shoots them.
Don't forget that the police thanked a minor/murderer for carrying an assault rifle to control protesters.
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Don't forget that the police thanked a minor/murderer for carrying an assault rifle to control protesters.
Does a person of color carrying that type of weapon make it out of there alive or without being arrested even without shooting anyone?
I think we know that answer and that's the problem.
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Does a person of color carrying that type of weapon make it out of there alive or without being arrested even without shooting anyone?
I think we know that answer and that's the problem.
Exactly. Remember, this all started when a coward, wannabe assassin emptied his gun into a black man's back.
Not only was Kyle carrying a weapon near police, but bystanders were screaming to the police that he was shooting people. They couldn't be bothered to do their job. Looking impressive in their assault vehicles was way more important.
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not sure if this has been posted and/or viewed, but it is a pretty good breakdown and summary of the sequence of events-not from a "far right" news organization-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYjG4uequWQ
"Also, you had Rittenhouse, armed with a rifle and by other accounts antagonizing and confronting protestors. At what point, can those being antagonized and confronted claim self-defense? Rittenhouse is the one who came to a protest to confront protestors, armed himself illegally, decided to maintain those illegal arms while violating curfews (breaking more laws), then confront protestors. The kid is a murderer."
last time i checked, we have due process, so i'm assuming this is your opinion
"So is the left-wing protestor who shot and killed a far-right white nationalist in Portland last night after a confrontation."
i never said anything about portland, but was the protestor(sp?) far left or just "left"?
"They are both criminals who should be punished to the full extent of the law. That prominent conservatives are calling a murderer a hero, and donating hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend him is abhorrent and disgusting. The fact that we have a president's advisor saying that the violence is good for Trump, and then Trump constantly fanning the flames of violence is a disgrace."
ok, he's not a hero, but i'm sure there have been some "prominent conservatives" who have also denounced this as well. anything about "prominent liberals" donating to get violent rioters out of jail and or defend them? the minnesota relief fund? wrong or right, people are setting up relief funds, gofundme's etc on both sides so calm down there forgetable
"Since when is "Law and Order" encouraging violence? Encouraging armed vigilantes from entering protests and instigating confrontations? When is "Law and Order" defending an illegally armed vigilante gunning down and murdering 2 people?"
once again, due process. the attorneys are going to duke this out
re-read my comments-my main concern was evers and barnes premature comments, the violence and destruction of property and due process. the deaths of those involved were very unfortunate, remember, not much good happens after 10 pm
maybe it's just me, but 1) don't bring a skateboard to a gunfight and 2) chasing guys with AR's is not a good idea.
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Exactly. Remember, this all started when a coward, wannabe assassin emptied his gun into a black man's back.
Not only was Kyle carrying a weapon near police, but bystanders were screaming to the police that he was shooting people. They couldn't be bothered to do their job. Looking impressive in their assault vehicles was way more important.
this is just so wrong and intellectually lazy, but par for the course
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this is just so wrong and intellectually lazy, but par for the course
Some of it may be wrong. We will hopefully find out the entire truth in time.
The first two sentences of the second parahraph are absolutely accurate and can be confirmed on multiple videos.
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maybe it's just me, but 1) don't bring a skateboard to a gunfight and 2) chasing guys with AR's is not a good idea.
That's what's wrong with this country these days. You can't even gun down a fellow citizen in public without some other people trying to chase you down for it
Also, what were they wearing? Probably something too revealing.
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They acted with courage and honor, trying to disarm a 17 year old with a borrowed AR-15. rs mocks them for it.
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Christians have raised $200,000 for their favorite murderer.
When will the real christians speak up?
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nm
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nm
I decided to agree with buck instead of lashing out. Thanks for being a good role model!
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nm
I decided to agree with buck instead of lashing out. Thanks for being a good role model!
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/71db65a155107a2e7f85b3f7c3f7a5c7/tenor.gif?itemid=12262535)
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nm
I decided to agree with buck instead of lashing out. Thanks for being a good role model!
Maybe Buck can teach us all something.
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Guess Who "liked" a tweet that lionizes new right-wing hero Kyle Rittenhouse?
https://twitter.com/Timcast/status/1299327274710437888?campaign_id=56&emc=edit_cn_20200831&instance_id=21771&nl=on-politics-with-lisa-lerer®i_id=108420427&segment_id=37208&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Maybe on his campaign stop in Kenosha - the one Wisconsin does not want because it will further occupy law enforcement efforts that already are stretched thin - he can give the Presidential Medal of Freedom to Kyle.
Hey, gotta give the emperor credit for being darn good at shifting focus away from the 180K dead Americans on his watch.
Somehow, in his mind, the current anarchy in the streets in Trump's America "proves" that only he can prevent future anarchy in the streets.
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Guess Who "liked" a tweet that lionizes new right-wing hero Kyle Rittenhouse?
https://twitter.com/Timcast/status/1299327274710437888?campaign_id=56&emc=edit_cn_20200831&instance_id=21771&nl=on-politics-with-lisa-lerer®i_id=108420427&segment_id=37208&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Maybe on his campaign stop in Kenosha - the one Wisconsin does not want because it will further occupy law enforcement efforts that already are stretched thin - he can give the Presidential Medal of Freedom to Kyle.
Hey, gotta give the emperor credit for being darn good at shifting focus away from the 180K dead Americans on his watch.
Somehow, in his mind, the current anarchy in the streets in Trump's America "proves" that only he can prevent future anarchy in the streets.
I decided to agree with buck instead of lashing out. Thanks for being a good role model!
Ah well....
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nm
I decided to agree with buck instead of lashing out. Thanks for being a good role model!
I can't see what this is in reference to, but I'm guessing it is RS. I also wrote out a detailed point by point reply...then just deleted it, because it is just not worth it.
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Ah well....
I was going to lash out at a Scooper, one you have taken to task many times (as have I). I decided to not do so because others already made their points.
My most recent comment was on topic, fact-filled and not an attack on any of our fellow Scoopers.
But thanks for being the hall monitor, Sultan! Your service has been duly noted.
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I was going to lash out at a Scooper, one you have taken to task many times (as have I). I decided to not do so because others already made their points.
My most recent comment was on topic, fact-filled and not an attack on any of our fellow Scoopers.
But thanks for being the hall monitor, Sultan! Your service has been duly noted.
No but it was full of the political BS that diminishes your point. Absolutely no need for that.
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Kenosha of course is an advertisement for police reform and gun reform.
It is also: Make America afraid of something other than COVID-19. Truth and logic are not important to those with this belief.
Portray oneself as “strong” even when incompetent, as opposed to the appearance of competent but weak. Some insecure people will follow this and be duped by this. Truth, facts, empathy, peace, are not perceived as “strong”, and when you don’t possess the other things, that’s what one chooses, damage doesn’t matter.
Reality is incompetence, hiding in bunkers, bowing down to dictators and corporate America, not exactly positions of strength.
Reality is that competence, empathy, productivity, etc...are positions of strength.
Some people have gone and are going to Kenosha this week to stoke the flames. We are rapidly approaching 200,000 COVID-19 deaths w/o a National plan for the Pandemic, the Economy, Healthcare, police reform, gun reform, etc...but we have talking tough and increased violence covered.
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-cases-invoking-trump/story?id=58912889&id=58912889&__twitter_impression=true
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Kenosha of course is an advertisement for police reform and gun reform.
It is also: Make America afraid of something other than COVID-19. Truth and logic are not important to those with this belief.
Portray oneself as “strong” even when incompetent, as opposed to the appearance of competent but weak. Some insecure people will follow this and be duped by this. Truth, facts, empathy, peace, are not perceived as “strong”, and when you don’t possess the other things, that’s what one chooses, damage doesn’t matter.
Reality is incompetence, hiding in bunkers, bowing down to dictators and corporate America, not exactly positions of strength.
Reality is that competence, empathy, productivity, etc...are positions of strength.
Some people have gone and are going to Kenosha this week to stoke the flames. We are rapidly approaching 200,000 COVID-19 deaths w/o a National plan for the Pandemic, the Economy, Healthcare, police reform, gun reform, etc...but we have talking tough and increased violence covered.
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/blame-abc-news-finds-17-cases-invoking-trump/story?id=58912889&id=58912889&__twitter_impression=true
Hopefully, the few voters who are still on the fence will see through this BS, and also will be able to vote despite the obvious attempts to at suppression.
What's happening in Kenosha has been a travesty. The situation desperately called for national leadership from somebody in the JFK or Reagan mold; instead, we got Jerry Springer.
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I think the "law and order" tact would work better if Trump weren't the sitting president....and has been somewhat chaotic himself.
As someone I follow summarized yesterday: “Joe Biden could end all riots immediately but won’t! Vote for Trump who hates riots and very much wants to stop them but is completely unable to.”
I just don't know if that will work.
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I think the "law and order" tact would work better if Trump weren't the sitting president....and has been somewhat chaotic himself.
As someone I follow summarized yesterday: “Joe Biden could end all riots immediately but won’t! Vote for Trump who hates riots and very much wants to stop them but is completely unable to.”
I just don't know if that will work.
Curious ... How could Biden "end all riots immediately"?
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Curious ... How could Biden "end all riots immediately"?
You're asking Sultan to crawl into Trump's brain and figure out how his fever dream state came up with the concept that Biden could stop all this? That seems a very mean thing to do to him(Sultan)
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Those arrested in Kenosha come from 44 different locations.
Starting to feel very much like Minneapolis in late May where slowly but surely we find many of the law breaking agitators came from outside the local community with the purpose of sowing chaos. I wonder where they get the idea to do these things?
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Curious ... How could Biden "end all riots immediately"?
I saw the same tweet exchange. It came in response to Don Jr. saying something along the lines of "remember, Biden could have ended these riots weeks ago but chose not to."
Which is a weird statement (why cede to your opponent a power you clearly don't have?) and certainly detached from reality. Everyone I follow who participates in or actively supports the "protest movement" openly despises Biden and perhaps barely tolerates him at the most friendly.
But it's all an angle, namely: protesters = rioters = democrats = Biden is the campaign strategy now, and the logic connecting those points is kinda secondary to that end. Anecdotally it's working among the targeted suburban folks their aiming at.
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I saw the same tweet exchange. It came in response to Don Jr. saying something along the lines of "remember, Biden could have ended these riots weeks ago but chose not to."
Which is a weird statement (why cede to your opponent a power you clearly don't have?) and certainly detached from reality. Everyone I follow who participates in or actively supports the "protest movement" openly despises Biden and perhaps barely tolerates him at the most friendly.
But it's all an angle, namely: protesters = rioters = democrats = Biden is the campaign strategy now, and the logic connecting those points is kinda secondary to that end. Anecdotally it's working among the targeted suburban folks their aiming at.
Right. I guess we will have to see if this works long term. Because I am not sure the same suburban voters are going to view Trump as the one who can fix these problems.
Let me add this. My feeling is that a more sympathetic tone toward the victims of racial abuse, while also touting a "law and order" line, would go a LONG way to capturing those voters. But simply focusing on the rioters / protestors, while ignoring what they are protesting about, doesn't seem to be the way to go here.
But really what do I know?
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Everyone I follow who participates in or actively supports the "protest movement" openly despises Biden and perhaps barely tolerates him at the most friendly.
But it's all an angle, namely: protesters = rioters = democrats = Biden is the campaign strategy now, and the logic connecting those points is kinda secondary to that end. Anecdotally it's working among the targeted suburban folks their aiming at.
Really? BLM and the like "despise" Biden? Interesting. I honestly wouldn't have guessed that. He's not very "despisable" IMHO, especially when compared to the alternative for protesters, so I'm a little surprised the feelings against Biden would be so strong.
As for anecdotal evidence ... The early post-convention polling has shown that the emperor has gotten little to no bump from his scorched-earth rhetoric. But it's a little too early to know the effect. Polls released after Labor Day should be more telling one would think.
Let me add this. My feeling is that a more sympathetic tone toward the victims of racial abuse, while also touting a "law and order" line, would go a LONG way to capturing those voters.
Biden seems to be trying to do this. He even publicly challenged his opponent to do similar.
Ugh ... I can't believe we still have 9 weeks to go to this freakin' election.
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Really? BLM and the like "despise" Biden? Interesting. I honestly wouldn't have guessed that. He's not very "despisable" IMHO, especially when compared to the alternative for protesters, so I'm a little surprised the feelings against Biden would be so strong.
As for anecdotal evidence ... The early post-convention polling has shown that the emperor has gotten little to no bump from his scorched-earth rhetoric. But it's a little too early to know the effect. Polls released after Labor Day should be more telling one would think.
Biden seems to be trying to do this. He even publicly challenged his opponent to do similar.
Ugh ... I can't believe we still have 9 weeks to go to this freakin' election.
To those plugged deeply into that movement, Biden represents a continuation of the neoliberal politics that have given rise to the dominance of the caceral state in all its inglory. Now, I think there's a reasonable number of them who will vote for him anyway, but there's no love for him among the activist set.
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To those plugged deeply into that movement, Biden represents a continuation of the neoliberal politics that have given rise to the dominance of the caceral state in all its inglory. Now, I think there's a reasonable number of them who will vote for him anyway, but there's no love for him among the activist set.
Interesting. Thanks for the info. I like to learn, and I learned something here ... including the word "caceral." Had to look it up!
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Really? BLM and the like "despise" Biden? Interesting. I honestly wouldn't have guessed that. He's not very "despisable" IMHO, especially when compared to the alternative for protesters, so I'm a little surprised the feelings against Biden would be so strong.
Yep, to echo jficke, I know about a half dozen people in the early 30s demo who dislike Biden enough to even debate not voting for president period. A few point to his history of voting on racial/social/criminal justice issues back in the 80s (which is kind of preposterous to me), while the rest just feel he is too moderate. They were ardent Bernie supporters and AOC evangelists who were overjoyed when she endorsed Bernie at the DNC for whatever reason. Any semblance of centrist/moderate politics, or the whiff of bipartisanship, and they are out on him.
Now there are plenty of sensible dems/liberal voters who may not be thrilled with Biden, but will happily vote for him, but its not crazy to think that a good sized contingent of the vocal BLM/active protester sect shares the viewpoints mentioned above. Its ironic that, even in the face of 4 more years of Trump, the moderate-ish stances of Biden that makes him tolerable/appealing to middle of the road voters or conservatives fed up with DJT, are what makes him so unpleasant to the outer reaches of his blue base.
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To those plugged deeply into that movement, Biden represents a continuation of the neoliberal politics that have given rise to the dominance of the caceral state in all its inglory. Now, I think there's a reasonable number of them who will vote for him anyway, but there's no love for him among the activist set.
Spot on, jficke.
I am not a big fan, but think he is the ideal man for the times. Hopefully, (considering his age), 1924 will be a time when young blood with more liberal ideas will step forward. But first, before we need to take bold steps, we need a return to normalcy and decency.
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Yep, to echo jficke, I know about a half dozen people in the early 30s demo who dislike Biden enough to even debate not voting for president period. A few point to his history of voting on racial/social/criminal justice issues back in the 80s (which is kind of preposterous to me), while the rest just feel he is too moderate. They were ardent Bernie supporters and AOC evangelists who were overjoyed when she endorsed Bernie at the DNC for whatever reason. Any semblance of centrist/moderate politics, or the whiff of bipartisanship, and they are out on him.
Now there are plenty of sensible dems/liberal voters who may not be thrilled with Biden, but will happily vote for him, but its not crazy to think that a good sized contingent of the vocal BLM/active protester sect shares the viewpoints mentioned above. Its ironic that, even in the face of 4 more years of Trump, the moderate-ish stances of Biden that makes him tolerable/appealing to middle of the road voters or conservatives fed up with DJT, are what makes him so unpleasant to the outer reaches of his blue base.
Ironic is one word for it. I was thinking of something that rhymes with that and starts with an "m."
I think Biden will do better among the Bernie voters because he has so enthusiastically supported him and he doesn't feel the nomination was "stolen" from him, as he did last time.
A logical progressive would ask himself or herself: "Even if I don't really like Biden or the policies from the past, who is more likely to move leftward, him or his opponent?" But with some, there is no logic. So they are willing to condemn the USA to 4 more years of policies that are absolutely abhorrent to themselves. Brilliant.
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More lunacy. Trump:
"If I didn’t INSIST on having the National Guard activate and go into Kenosha, Wisconsin, there would be no Kenosha right now."
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Ironic is one word for it. I was thinking of something that rhymes with that and starts with an "m."
I think Biden will do better among the Bernie voters because he has so enthusiastically supported him and he doesn't feel the nomination was "stolen" from him, as he did last time.
A logical progressive would ask himself or herself: "Even if I don't really like Biden or the policies from the past, who is more likely to move leftward, him or his opponent?" But with some, there is no logic. So they are willing to condemn the USA to 4 more years of policies that are absolutely abhorrent to themselves. Brilliant.
Don't know how true that will be, Mike. I know many Libs who complain about Biden, about the status quo. Every one will vote for him.
I think most of the ones you talk about are young and white. Most could't be bothered to spend 30 minutes to vote anyway.
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Interesting. Thanks for the info. I like to learn, and I learned something here ... including the word "caceral." Had to look it up!
Doh and I misspelled it for you to boot.
it's "carceral"
missed the dang "r."
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Yep, to echo jficke, I know about a half dozen people in the early 30s demo who dislike Biden enough to even debate not voting for president period. A few point to his history of voting on racial/social/criminal justice issues back in the 80s (which is kind of preposterous to me), while the rest just feel he is too moderate. They were ardent Bernie supporters and AOC evangelists who were overjoyed when she endorsed Bernie at the DNC for whatever reason. Any semblance of centrist/moderate politics, or the whiff of bipartisanship, and they are out on him.
Now there are plenty of sensible dems/liberal voters who may not be thrilled with Biden, but will happily vote for him, but its not crazy to think that a good sized contingent of the vocal BLM/active protester sect shares the viewpoints mentioned above. Its ironic that, even in the face of 4 more years of Trump, the moderate-ish stances of Biden that makes him tolerable/appealing to middle of the road voters or conservatives fed up with DJT, are what makes him so unpleasant to the outer reaches of his blue base.
I'm not really taking a stand on him or people's voting stances here. Everyone is more than capable of making inferences of my political ideology and how I plan to vote in November, but frankly that's irrelevant to the point I'm making here which is simply that it's really weird to see Biden tied to the "radical left" when I know with absolute certainty that the actual radical left hates him.
but hey, we gotta have reductive campaigning, so: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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For the record, if it is shown the suspected shooter in Portland shot first, lock him up and throw away the key. I stand with peaceful protesters. Rioters and hooligans in it to create trouble can all go f themselves.
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Yep, to echo jficke, I know about a half dozen people in the early 30s demo who dislike Biden enough to even debate not voting for president period. A few point to his history of voting on racial/social/criminal justice issues back in the 80s (which is kind of preposterous to me), while the rest just feel he is too moderate. They were ardent Bernie supporters and AOC evangelists who were overjoyed when she endorsed Bernie at the DNC for whatever reason. Any semblance of centrist/moderate politics, or the whiff of bipartisanship, and they are out on him.
Now there are plenty of sensible dems/liberal voters who may not be thrilled with Biden, but will happily vote for him, but its not crazy to think that a good sized contingent of the vocal BLM/active protester sect shares the viewpoints mentioned above. Its ironic that, even in the face of 4 more years of Trump, the moderate-ish stances of Biden that makes him tolerable/appealing to middle of the road voters or conservatives fed up with DJT, are what makes him so unpleasant to the outer reaches of his blue base.
One of my daughters falls into your description (although she's not of voting age). To mirror what Jockey said I tell my kids "he's not the sexy pick, but the pick we need now."
Now I will say nothing further................
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::) I'm not saying it was justified. Yet, i did see a man walking away from the cops when guns were on him. We need more answers.
Unless (and even if) he is the strongest man alive, what I witnessed does not crack the top 1000 scenarios that should have gone down. I am fully confident that if my white ass walked across the face of 2 or 3 officers that I would still be here to write this post.
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More lunacy. Trump:
"If I didn’t INSIST on having the National Guard activate and go into Kenosha, Wisconsin, there would be no Kenosha right now."
Jockey, what or who got the National Guard into Kenosha?
From speaking to people from Kenosha, the Uptown area is really destroyed and torched.
Was it Evers who got the National Guard there?
I heard Evers refused the National Guard and it was basically Trump that did get them there.
Only after Uptown was torched did Evers move.
Things were getting crazy. IMHO with no National Guard there, there would of been much more destruction, injury and possibly death.
Correct me if I am incorrect.
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Jockey, what or who got the National Guard into Kenosha?
From speaking to people from Kenosha, the Uptown area is really destroyed and torched.
Was it Evers who got the National Guard there?
I heard Evers refused the National Guard and it was basically Trump that did get them there.
Only after Uptown was torched did Evers move.
Things were getting crazy. IMHO with no National Guard there, there would of been much more destruction, injury and possibly death.
Correct me if I am incorrect.
You are incorrect.
Evers called up the National Guard, which is a function of the governor's office.
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And in a shocking turn of events, the president of the United States defended Kyle Rittenhouse today.
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You are incorrect.
Evers called up the National Guard, which is a function of the governor's office.
Did Evers wait? If so, why?
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Did Evers wait? If so, why?
No, he didn't. Guard members were deployed the day after Jacob Blake was shot.
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The governor must request the National Guard.
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Did Evers wait? If so, why?
Do they not have the Google where you live.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/08/24/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-calls-on-national-guard-after-police-shooting/amp/
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This is what I mean. I don’t understand why this is the route he takes. I think it undermines the “law and order” message.
https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1300567166891294725?s=21
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Do they not have the Google where you live.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/08/24/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-calls-on-national-guard-after-police-shooting/amp/
Thanks.
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For the record, if it is shown the suspected shooter in Portland shot first, lock him up and throw away the key. I stand with peaceful protesters. Rioters and hooligans in it to create trouble can all go f themselves.
In *general*, if you're not defending your own home, and shoot & kill someone out in public, I'm OK if you get locked up forever. Regardless of the reason you were out. Now, that gets interesting if there are 2 people with guns and the killer claims "self defense". But still, not many good legitimate reasons for people to be wandering the streets with guns EVER.
And I'm, OK with guns. Keep them at home, go hunting, go target shooting, have a massive collection. But you probably don't need one if you're going to Walgreens or visiting Kenosha for an evening...
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In *general*, if you're not defending your own home, and shoot & kill someone out in public, I'm OK if you get locked up forever. Regardless of the reason you were out. Now, that gets interesting if there are 2 people with guns and the killer claims "self defense". But still, not many good legitimate reasons for people to be wandering the streets with guns EVER.
And I'm, OK with guns. Keep them at home, go hunting, go target shooting, have a massive collection. But you probably don't need one if you're going to Walgreens or visiting Kenosha for an evening...
My wife has a nurse co-worker. This co-worker's husband never leaves the house without 3 firearms on him. 1 side holster, 1 back waistband, 1 in his boot.
We've been out with them a couple times. Makes me uncomfortable every time.
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After making my eyes bleed while reading this entire thread, I have realized my fellow Marquette basketball fans have no idea what is going on with any events currently going down in kenosha :-[
https://youtu.be/NSxQzcTHm-A
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After making my eyes bleed while reading this entire thread, I have realized my fellow Marquette basketball fans have no idea what is going on with any events currently going down in kenosha :-[
https://youtu.be/NSxQzcTHm-A
High comedy.
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My wife has a nurse co-worker. This co-worker's husband never leaves the house without 3 firearms on him. 1 side holster, 1 back waistband, 1 in his boot.
We've been out with them a couple times. Makes me uncomfortable every time.
I wouldn’t hang out with that guy. He is a psycho.
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This is what I mean. I don’t understand why this is the route he takes. I think it undermines the “law and order” message.
https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1300567166891294725?s=21
Very easy to understand. He is fomenting chaos. After this many times, you should understand.
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Hopefully, (considering his age), 1924 will be a time when young blood with more liberal ideas will step forward.
1924, Jockey??? Was that the year Joe flunked 3rd grade, the year he got an “F” in ROTC or the year(s) he got caught cheating in law school?
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This is what I mean. I don’t understand why this is the route he takes. I think it undermines the “law and order” message.
https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1300567166891294725?s=21
Several of the emperor’s people have said that the more violence the better for him. He is desperate and thinks this (and undermining the USPS) is his only avenue to keep the presidency. So he throws gasoline on every fire and then screams that he owns the only hose in America.
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Several of the emperor’s people have said that the more violence the better for him. He is desperate and thinks this (and undermining the USPS) is his only avenue to keep the presidency. So he throws gasoline on every fire and then screams that he owns the only hose in America.
I think there’s a side of Trump that would just as soon head down to Mar - a- Lago, hit the links every day, and call in to Fox and friends and pontificate. I have seen no indication that he cares or understands about his place in history. But I think he is desperate to win this election, because he knows that might be the only way to stay out of jail.
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Do they not have the Google where you live.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/08/24/wisconsin-gov-tony-evers-calls-on-national-guard-after-police-shooting/amp/
Funny videos of the carnage did not show any national guards.
125? Pathetic.
But hey, bet they are patting themselves on the back in Madison.
Funny Evers shows up in Kenosha after Trump says he is coming.
Lame.
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Several of the emperor’s people have said that the more violence the better for him.
No doubt Trump benefits if the riots spread.
And Biden benefits if the virus spreads.
Saying either is merely acknowledging the obvious.
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No doubt Trump benefits if the riots spread.
And Biden benefits if the virus spreads.
Saying either is merely acknowledging the obvious.
The obvious difference being that Biden isn't doing anything to make the virus spread. I'm not sure the same could be said for his opponent.
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No doubt Trump benefits if the riots spread.
And Biden benefits if the virus spreads.
Saying either is merely acknowledging the obvious.
I agree, Lenny. At the end of the day, one of these men is the current president and I’m not sure how anyone can defend how he’s handled either. The buck stops here or at least it use to
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No doubt Trump benefits if the riots spread.
And Biden benefits if the virus spreads.
Saying either is merely acknowledging the obvious.
Some may say one of those is responsible for both scenarios to a degree.
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Funny videos of the carnage did not show any national guards.
125? Pathetic.
But hey, bet they are patting themselves on the back in Madison.
Funny Evers shows up in Kenosha after Trump says he is coming.
Lame.
1. Evers refused to call up the National Guard!
2. OK, he called up the National Guard, but he waited too long!
3. OK, he didn't wait too long, but he didn't call up enough or something!
It's almost like you have an agenda.
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The obvious difference being that Biden isn't doing anything to make the virus spread. I'm not sure the same could be said for his opponent.
What exactly would y'all like him to do? Shut the entire country down? A vaccine is the only potential control for the virus and that is in the works. Learn to live with it in the meantime, hey?
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1. Evers refused to call up the National Guard!
2. OK, he called up the National Guard, but he waited too long!
3. OK, he didn't wait too long, but he didn't call up enough or something!
It's almost like you have an agenda.
Just to keep Kenosha safe and to call out a sh!t job.
Was raised there and have three siblings and their families and extended relatives there.
So may I ask your agenda?
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Very easy to understand. He is fomenting chaos. After this many times, you should understand.
But I don't think chaos helps him.
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As clashes between protesters and the police escalate around the country, President Trump has denounced the Black Lives Matter movement — and companies that support it.
“They’re weak people, led by weak people in many cases,” he said yesterday of corporations that supposedly donated to Black Lives Matter. His interviewer, the Fox News host Laura Ingraham, claimed that businesses had pledged “hundreds of millions” to the movement.
The comments reflect the gulf between Mr. Trump and corporate America on racial injustice.
While the president denounced Black Lives Matter as “Marxist,” C.E.O.s like Ramon Laguarta of PepsiCo have publicly expressed solidarity with the movement. And companies have collectively pledged billions to racial justice initiatives, from Bank of America to Netflix.
He also refused to condemn violence committed by his followers, including two killings by a 17-year-old in Kenosha and paintball attacks by Trump supporters in Portland.
Cool! The "Marxist" alarmists on Scoop have yet another reason to bend the knee to their emperor.
Meanwhile, only one of the two candidates has unequivocally condemned the violence, rioting and looting ... and it isn't President Pandemic.
The emperor is loving this, because he was getting desperate to come up with any strategy to distract Americans from the 185K dead on his watch ... and the phony "law-and-order" schtick fits nicely into his Make America Hateful, Fearful & Racist Again platform.
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What exactly would y'all like him to do? Shut the entire country down? A vaccine is the only potential control for the virus and that is in the works. Learn to live with it in the meantime, hey?
Encourage and demonstrate mask-wearing would go a long way for me personally
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1. Evers refused to call up the National Guard!
2. OK, he called up the National Guard, but he waited too long!
3. OK, he didn't wait too long, but he didn't call up enough or something!
It's almost like you have an agenda.
And / or the inability to do basic research prior to making his talking points.
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Encourage and demonstrate mask-wearing would go a long way for me personally
Quit attacking the doctors, quit promoting cures/treatments that don’t have clinical data supporting them, show empathy for those suffering from the virus and the businesses hurt by it, support an agenda that targets those suffering the most, not lining the pockets of large corporations to name a few things.
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What exactly would y'all like him to do? Shut the entire country down? A vaccine is the only potential control for the virus and that is in the works. Learn to live with it in the meantime, hey?
How many times are people going to have to answer this question before it registers with you?
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No doubt Trump benefits if the riots spread.
I don't know if I agree with this. He's the sitting President. The riots are spreading *under his watch.* If the goal is to get suburban females to vote for him, ginning up the violence isn't going to do it IMO.
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Just to keep Kenosha safe and to call out a sh!t job.
Was raised there and have three siblings and their families and extended relatives there.
So may I ask your agenda?
My agenda is the same as yours ... to call out a sh!t job, which in this case is your lame attempt to villainize Evers.
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My agenda is the same as yours ... to call out a sh!t job, which in this case is your lame attempt to villainize Evers.
Yes. He cares so much about Kenosha that he repeatedly got basic facts wrong, then when he finally got one right, claimed that he knew better than the governor.
So funny.
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Do I see tears?
Fluffy and Pakuni, how much will you give to Kenosha to rebuild it?
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Quit attacking the doctors, quit promoting cures/treatments that don’t have clinical data supporting them, show empathy for those suffering from the virus and the businesses hurt by it, support an agenda that targets those suffering the most, not lining the pockets of large corporations to name a few things.
And amazingly none of this, in addition to mask wearing, costs a single dime more than what has already been spent or what we would spend. There isn't a single reason not to do these things......unless they either help you politically or your ego is too big to adjust your position.
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Our passports no longer work -- so I guess I would request the bare minimum to get that restored.
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Do I see tears?
Fluffy and Pakuni, how much will you give to Kenosha to rebuild it?
I fully support my taxes going to help "rebuild" Kenosha. But let's not act like its in ruins.
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Thanks Fluffy, the residents of Kenosha appreciate it.
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Kenosha cop arrests woman for disorderly conduct after she tells him he has a small weenie.
https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1300792931817852930
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Kenosha cops arrests woman for disorderly conduct after she tells him he has a small weenie.
https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1300792931817852930
"disorderly conduct" a/k/a contempt of cop.
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What exactly would y'all like him to do? Shut the entire country down? A vaccine is the only potential control for the virus and that is in the works. Learn to live with it in the meantime, hey?
I guess my post wasn't clear. I wasn't implying trump is making the virus worse (that's another conversation). I am implying that he is intentionally trying to make the rioting worse.
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I am hoping the address by Trump to the public is to rebuild, heal and fix social wrongs. I am hoping it will not be a blame game.
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I am hoping the address by Trump to the public is to rebuild, heal and fix social wrongs. I am hoping it will not be a blame game.
Hahahahaha...
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I'm hoping my dog will start sh*ting gold bricks too.
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Now that would be cool.
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I don't know if I agree with this. He's the sitting President. The riots are spreading *under his watch.* If the goal is to get suburban females to vote for him, ginning up the violence isn't going to do it IMO.
I agree with this.
Nixon used "Law & Order" in 1968 but he was not the President yet and he could pitch this.
If you are going to say "Law & Order" on your watch and the opposite happens then you obviously have let it get out of control that is if it really is out of control in the first place. You have just proven you are worthless to address the issue.
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I am hoping the address by Trump to the public is to rebuild, heal and fix social wrongs. I am hoping it will not be a blame game.
I've been on Scoop for many years now, and this might be the single funniest thing I have ever read here. Well done!
Nixon used "Law & Order" in 1968 but he was not the President yet and he could pitch this.
If you are going to say "Law & Order" on your watch and the opposite happens then you obviously have let it get out of control that is if it really is out of control in the first place. You have just proven you are worthless to address the issue.
You and Sultan are using logic and reason, and are speculating that voters will do the same. Try not to make that mistake again, young men!
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I am hoping the address by Trump to the public is to rebuild, heal and fix social wrongs. I am hoping it will not be a blame game.
I hope to learn more about the people in the dark shadows and the shady characters in black uniforms packing commercial airliners.
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Perhaps you will hear more about how a Kenosha police officer shooting someone 7 times in the back equates to a golfer "choking" on a 3 foot putt.
https://twitter.com/PodSaveAmerica/status/1300630358203928576?s=19
Or more defending 17 year old Women punchers who drive to Kenosha with assault rifles, killing and wounding multiple people.
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1300557880001794049?s=19
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I agree with this.
Nixon used "Law & Order" in 1968 but he was not the President yet and he could pitch this.
If you are going to say "Law & Order" on your watch and the opposite happens then you obviously have let it get out of control that is if it really is out of control in the first place. You have just proven you are worthless to address the issue.
You underestimate the number of suburban voters that fear that liberal policies may forment the same type of riots/unrest you are seeing on TV. They like their police to identify and remove "others" not part of their community.
Right now they associate the riots with the liberal "others". To them, Biden/Harris/the Left are supporters of what they fear, and that Trump is trying to fight it. Why? Because they watch Foxnews, and the community is an echo chamber.
What they hear/believe right now is that the Left wants to change their community "identity" and wants to fire (defund) the police. Trump has flat out said he wants to preserve suburban "identity".
The more unrest we observe, the more their fears will drive their decision, instead of their logic. Fear will overcome common sense and decency every time. Once again, Trump is preying on peoples fear to create division. It is the only way he can win.
As all of his advisors say, unrest/violence/division leads to more Trump support. So he will push for move unrest and division, that is exactly what he is doing.
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I am hoping the address by Trump to the public is to rebuild, heal and fix social wrongs. I am hoping it will not be a blame game.
Uhhhhhh, really? I get that that is your hope, but what in the last 4 years leads you to believe this is the remotest of possibilities?
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The more unrest we observe, the more their fears will drive their decision, instead of their logic. Fear will overcome common sense and decency every time. Once again, Trump is preying on peoples fear to create division. It is the only way he can win.
You're not giving him enough credit. He also can win by torpedoeing the U.S. Postal Service to keep people from voting during the pandemic he helped make worse with his horrific response.
"Fear, anger, hate, racism and total disregard for others' well-being. Trump/Pence 2020!"
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I agree with this.
Nixon used "Law & Order" in 1968 but he was not the President yet and he could pitch this.
If you are going to say "Law & Order" on your watch and the opposite happens then you obviously have let it get out of control that is if it really is out of control in the first place. You have just proven you are worthless to address the issue.
You have a far higher regard for the average American's ability to apply reason and logic than I do.
Right now, Trump is saying everything that is happening under his watch is actually Biden's fault. Despite Trump being President, and despite an avalanche of video and electronic evidence that Trump is fanning the flames, he attempts to shift the blame and claims what is happening NOW is what will happen if Biden gets elected.
And his mindless horde swallows it whole.
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Have a great day folks. I will be praying for you. Peace! :-*
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I am hoping the address by Trump to the public is to rebuild, heal and fix social wrongs. I am hoping it will not be a blame game.
What world do you live in?
He has already defended the white murderer.
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You have a far higher regard for the average American's ability to apply reason and logic than I do.
Right now, Trump is saying everything that is happening under his watch is actually Biden's fault. Despite Trump being President, and despite an avalanche of video and electronic evidence that Trump is fanning the flames, he attempts to shift the blame and claims what is happening NOW is what will happen if Biden gets elected.
And his mindless horde swallows it whole.
Not quite.
I agree with above.
Trump is saying this is the result of the left. And Biden winning would be more of the left.
Which is funny because most actual left don't like Biden since he's more of a 90s moderate Republican
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I hope to learn more about the people in the dark shadows and the shady characters in black uniforms packing commercial airliners.
Biden and AOC have overthrown the leadership of Homeland Security and the TSA, so they not only allow these people on planes, but actually are out recruiting them.
Open your eyes, Pakuni!!!
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You underestimate the number of suburban voters that fear that liberal policies may forment the same type of riots/unrest you are seeing on TV. They like their police to identify and remove "others" not part of their community.
I disagree, Forgetful.
These are smart women in the suburbs who want change. Not HS dropouts who believe trump is the 2nd coming.
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You underestimate the number of suburban voters that fear that liberal policies may forment the same type of riots/unrest you are seeing on TV. They like their police to identify and remove "others" not part of their community.
Right now they associate the riots with the liberal "others". To them, Biden/Harris/the Left are supporters of what they fear, and that Trump is trying to fight it. Why? Because they watch Foxnews, and the community is an echo chamber.
What they hear/believe right now is that the Left wants to change their community "identity" and wants to fire (defund) the police. Trump has flat out said he wants to preserve suburban "identity".
The more unrest we observe, the more their fears will drive their decision, instead of their logic. Fear will overcome common sense and decency every time. Once again, Trump is preying on peoples fear to create division. It is the only way he can win.
As all of his advisors say, unrest/violence/division leads to more Trump support. So he will push for move unrest and division, that is exactly what he is doing.
I don't think it's a winning strategy.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/trump-accentuating-his-weakness/615910/
"Yet Trump is now determinedly forcing the national conversation back to the topic on which he fares worst. His words the past two days show why it tends to backfire. Even Americans who might be rattled by the prospect of rioting, and therefore susceptible to a more disciplined (if no less practically racist) argument from Trump, react poorly to the things he actually says when he tries to seize the moment of political opportunity."
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I was reminded in a conversation that even Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote after 2 years into the Great Depression.
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Biden and AOC have overthrown the leadership of Homeland Security and the TSA, so they not only allow these people on planes, but actually are out recruiting them.
Open your eyes, Pakuni!!!
While your theory is nice, it fails to address the rampant child sex ring/cannibalism that is the real problem.
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I disagree, Forgetful.
These are smart women in the suburbs who want change. Not HS dropouts who believe trump is the 2nd coming.
I only stated what I did, because I was honestly lectured by people in my neighborhood yesterday, that Trump might be a "royal jackass" (quoted with their exact words), but the alternative is to let our streets burn with no police in sight.
There is an audience for this message/argument, and some are listening. No idea if it is a winning strategy or not, just essentially conveying the message I heard.
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So I should rename the thread to Trump vs Biden and lock it?
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So I should rename the thread to Trump vs Biden and lock it?
Yes
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Encourage and demonstrate mask-wearing would go a long way for me personally
I agree with this 100%
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So I should rename the thread to Trump vs Biden and lock it?
In 1998, 4 of us from Marquette went to Dairyland. We were not only going to see the races, but also to see the WWF wrestler Kane (pretty popular at the time), who was going to sign autographs at the track from 7-9pm. My friend was hoping he'd be able to get a picture of Kane pretending to choke slam him.
We got stoned, left late, and took a few wrong turns getting there, so we ended up arriving just in time to see the grappler--dressed in all red--get into a Lincoln Navigator and drive off. No one got autographs nor pictures.
Anyway, Dairyland was in Kenosha.
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So I should rename the thread to Trump vs Biden and lock it?
Nah ... just report it to the mods.
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In 1998, 4 of us from Marquette went to Dairyland. We were not only going to see the races, but also to see the WWF wrestler Kane (pretty popular at the time), who was going to sign autographs at the track from 7-9pm. My friend was hoping he'd be able to get a picture of Kane pretending to choke slam him.
We got stoned, left late, and took a few wrong turns getting there, so we ended up arriving just in time to see the grappler--dressed in all red--get into a Lincoln Navigator and drive off. No one got autographs nor pictures.
Anyway, Dairyland was in Kenosha.
Remember the brief time that greyhound racing was actually a thing in Wisconsin?
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So I should rename the thread to Trump vs Biden and lock it?
Do I have to turn this car around right now? I will, you know!
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Anyway, Dairyland was in Kenosha.
Relevant. I like it.
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Remember the brief time that greyhound racing was actually a thing in Wisconsin?
I remember MOST of one dollar beer night the one time I went.
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The movie A League of Their Own tells the tale of the WW II era woman’s professional baseball league and their persistence gaining acceptance in a male-centric time. The story is told from the perspective of the Racine Peaches, their league-wide catching star (Geena Davis), her scrappy kid sister (Lori Petty) and their washed-up pro ball player-turned-manager (Tom Hanks).
While the Peaches eventually lose the 7th game of the woman’s World Series, the film captures the comradery, hard work, and perseverance of the women who played in the league.
Anyway, Racine is pretty close to Kenosha.
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Remember the brief time that greyhound racing was actually a thing in Wisconsin?
Was that the Kenosha Downs?
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The movie A League of Their Own tells the tale of the WW II era woman’s professional baseball league and their persistence gaining acceptance in a male-centric time. The story is told from the perspective of the Racine Peaches, their league-wide catching star (Geena Davis), her scrappy kid sister (Lori Petty) and their washed-up pro ball player-turned-manager (Tom Hanks).
While the Peaches eventually lose the 7th game of the woman’s World Series, the film captures the comradery, hard work, and perseverance of the women who played in the league.
Anyway, Racine is pretty close to Kenosha.
*Rockford Peaches
The kid sister did get traded to the Racine team who won the championship (with a young/good looking Tea Leoni making a cameo)
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The movie A League of Their Own tells the tale of the WW II era woman’s professional baseball league and their persistence gaining acceptance in a male-centric time. The story is told from the perspective of the Racine Peaches, their league-wide catching star (Geena Davis), her scrappy kid sister (Lori Petty) and their washed-up pro ball player-turned-manager (Tom Hanks).
While the Peaches eventually lose the 7th game of the woman’s World Series, the film captures the comradery, hard work, and perseverance of the women who played in the league.
Anyway, Racine is pretty close to Kenosha.
I was finally going to get around to watching this movie but now that I know how it turns out I guess I can skip it. Thanks
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*Rockford Peaches
The kid sister did get traded to the Racine team who won the championship (with a young/good looking Tea Leoni making a cameo)
Racine Belles! Damn, I totally screwed that up.
Besides, Rockford is the Kenosha of Illinois.
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Racine Belles! Damn, I totally screwed that up.
Besides, Rockford is the Kenosha of Illinois.
No need to insult Kenosha.
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Encourage and demonstrate mask-wearing would go a long way for me personally
Notice that the potus pointedly told the people at his roundtable in Kenosha to take off their masks "because the people want to see you".
Modeling good behavior is an underappreciated aspect of past Presidents who are held in high regard.
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Notice that the potus pointedly told the people at his roundtable in Kenosha to take off their masks "because the people want to see you".
Modeling good behavior is an underappreciated aspect of past Presidents who are held in high regard.
He has been anti-mask from day 1.
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I ran a State Senate campaign in Kenosha, living at the "Executive Inn" for over three months in beautiful Pleasant Prairie right off of 94 (behind The Brat Stop which was good for coming home late from the office). Hotel guests got one free drink per night at the bar so that was a plus. The Italian food down there resulted in weight gain that took at least 2x the time to take off. Tenuta's Muffalato sandwiches and Infusio's sausage were significant contributors to that weight gain.
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Notice that the potus pointedly told the people at his roundtable in Kenosha to take off their masks "because the people want to see you".
Modeling good behavior is an underappreciated aspect of past Presidents who are held in high regard.
His visit was what everyone should have expected. He refused to condemn violence by his “side,” painted Rittenhouse and cops as the true victims, took credit for stuff he didn’t do, refused to accept responsibility for anything, and lied a lot. Nothing more than one of his typical campaign stops.
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His visit was what everyone should have expected. He refused to condemn violence by his “side,” painted Rittenhouse and cops as the true victims, took credit for stuff he didn’t do, refused to accept responsibility for anything, and lied a lot. Nothing more than one of his typical campaign stops.
Around all of the crazy, he got a couple of soundbites that, objectively, will play well in Wisconsin. Biden is going to have to go to SEW and GB/Fox Valley to earn his votes.
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"Encourage and demonstrate mask-wearing would go a long way for me personally"
absolutely! and that should go for 3rd in line too, eyn'a?
https://knss.radio.com/articles/video-nancy-pelosi-without-mask-at-salon-appointment
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"Encourage and demonstrate mask-wearing would go a long way for me personally"
absolutely! and that should go for 3rd in line too, eyn'a?
https://knss.radio.com/articles/video-nancy-pelosi-without-mask-at-salon-appointment
Yes, it should. She should not get a pass on her response to this pandemic at all.
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Yes, it should. She should not get a pass on her response to this pandemic at all.
Absolutely
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"Encourage and demonstrate mask-wearing would go a long way for me personally"
absolutely! and that should go for 3rd in line too, eyn'a?
https://knss.radio.com/articles/video-nancy-pelosi-without-mask-at-salon-appointment
Anything to hide dat ugly ass mug, aina?
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Yes, it should. She should not get a pass on her response to this pandemic at all.
She won’t get a pass from honest Democrats/liberals like you, Fluffy and others here. Let’s see how CNN and MSNBC (or even ABC, CBS and NBC) handle it.
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Anything to hide dat ugly ass mug, aina?
She should probably wear 25% of the makeup 45 wears to cover the ugly, otherwise your comment would just be misogynistic, aina?
And yes, she should be called out for this, held accountable and apologize.....and if her points of view remain the same she should be ousted.
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Anything to hide dat ugly ass mug, aina?
pretty boys gonna pretty boy
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Of course she should wear a mask.
And the comments about Pelosi's looks were juvenile and uncalled for.
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Feel free to put mask stuff in the mask thread. Everyone needs to wear a mask when around anyone outside of their own personal bubble. No exceptions.
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Of course she should wear a mask.
And the comments about Pelosi's looks were juvenile and uncalled for.
C'mon man, you of all people, hey?
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She doesn't look bad for an 80 year old.
The fact that we have a bunch of 70 and 80 year olds running the country is a little concerning.
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She shouldn't stand too close to the fireplace. Her face will melt and the chest silicone will likely bust a leak, aina?
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Saw this the other day:
ALME
Is this an acronym for All Lives Matter Equally? If so, anyone have an issue with the slogan?
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Saw this the other day:
ALME
Is this an acronym for All Lives Matter Equally? If so, anyone have an issue with the slogan?
<sigh>
It's fine.
But why are we the only country on earth where the phrase Black Lives Matter has become a controversial statement? It's like people are afraid of saying it or something.
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She shouldn't stand too close to the fireplace. Her face will melt and the chest silicone will likely bust a leak, aina?
And Trump's fake hair would catch fire.
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Saw this the other day:
ALME
Is this an acronym for All Lives Matter Equally? If so, anyone have an issue with the slogan?
Only if/when it's used - like "All Lives Matter" and "Blue Lives Matter" - as a bludgeon against Black Lives Matter.
And Fluffy, it's not that people are afraid to say Black Lives Matter. It's that they don't want to say it. So they come up with things like "All Lives Matter" instead. It allows them to convince themselves their motives for opposing BLM (the phrase, not organization) aren't racist.
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Saw this the other day:
ALME
Is this an acronym for All Lives Matter Equally? If so, anyone have an issue with the slogan?
I'm gonna need Talcum X chime in with his thoughts, hey.
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<sigh>
It's fine.
But why are we the only country on earth where the phrase Black Lives Matter has become a controversial statement? It's like people are afraid of saying it or something.
I think it's because people in this country are extremely self obsessed and triggered easily (even the side that claims it's only the left that's gets easily offended). For your average right wing white guy They here black lives matter and immediately jump to "what mine doesn't?!" And thus need to involve themselves in a slogan that has nothing to do with them.
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<sigh>
It's fine.
But why are we the only country on earth where the phrase Black Lives Matter has become a controversial statement? It's like people are afraid of saying it or something.
Because if everybody says it, it might be true.
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Saw this the other day:
ALME
Is this an acronym for All Lives Matter Equally? If so, anyone have an issue with the slogan?
When people say Black Lives Matter, they are in no way implying that all lives do not matter. They are trying to call special attention to one segment of the population that is being treated unjustly. Yes, all lives matter. And they all matter equally. Your life matters, my life matters, we all matter. The statement, black lives matter, is trying to draw attention to that very point, because many seem to treat black lives, as though they don't matter. Its like when I tell one of my kids I love them, it doesn't mean that I don't love my wife. Every person on this Earth deserves to be treated with human dignity by each other, and by the governments and people in authority.
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Saw this the other day:
ALME
Is this an acronym for All Lives Matter Equally? If so, anyone have an issue with the slogan?
Parable of the lost sheep. Luke 15:3-7
There is nothing wrong about focusing on the one lost (or disadvantaged/ill-treated), it does not take away from the other 99.
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Saw this the other day:
ALME
Is this an acronym for All Lives Matter Equally? If so, anyone have an issue with the slogan?
It says quite a bit that you need approval of a slogan to let the message sink in.
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C'mon man, you of all people, hey?
If you can find one post in which I made fun of a woman's looks, I will self-impose a 1-year Scoopcation.
I know you won't make the same deal ... because I'd only have to go back to yesterday this morning.
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Parable of the lost sheep. Luke 15:3-7
There is nothing wrong about focusing on the one lost (or disadvantaged/ill-treated), it does not take away from the other 99.
Out of context alert! Luke 15:3-7 has nothing to do with focusing on the "disadvantaged/ill-treated". The parable corresponds to lost sinners being found by Jesus, i.e. entering the kingdom of God.
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Yes, it should. She should not get a pass on her response to this pandemic at all.
Especially because I think salons are only allowed to be outdoor in California.
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Out of context alert! Luke 15:3-7 has nothing to do with focusing on the "disadvantaged/ill-treated". The parable corresponds to lost sinners being found by Jesus, i.e. entering the kingdom of God.
The Parable of the Good Samaritan is a better example.
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If you can find one post in which I made fun of a woman's looks, I will self-impose a 1-year Scoopcation.
You have scores of posts making fun of a man’s looks. How is that different?
#sexist
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You have scores of posts making fun of a man’s looks. How is that different?
#sexist
I'm a gentleman, as are you.
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When people say Black Lives Matter, they are in no way implying that all lives do not matter. They are trying to call special attention to one segment of the population that is being treated unjustly. Yes, all lives matter. And they all matter equally. Your life matters, my life matters, we all matter. The statement, black lives matter, is trying to draw attention to that very point, because many seem to treat black lives, as though they don't matter. Its like when I tell one of my kids I love them, it doesn't mean that I don't love my wife. Every person on this Earth deserves to be treated with human dignity by each other, and by the governments and people in authority.
Well said, Buck.
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Saw this the other day:
ALME
Is this an acronym for All Lives Matter Equally? If so, anyone have an issue with the slogan?
I have a problem with it
When tragedies befall specific cities and slogans like "Boston Strong" are generated, did anyone shout "all cities are strong"? No. Why do you think that is?
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AP Fact Check ...
The guy who thinks "law and order" applies to everybody except him and his supporters lied repeatedly when talking about what happened in Kenosha ...
https://apnews.com/e5c0dd83a2c172c0aed75b0a91517a55
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If you can find one post in which I made fun of a woman's looks, I will self-impose a 1-year Scoopcation.
I know you won't make the same deal ... because I'd only have to go back to yesterday this morning.
Why just women? All genders matta, hey?
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In a normal world, this would be scandalous. Today it's par for the course.
https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/kenosha-business-owner-declines-president-trump-photo-op-former-owner-replaces-him
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The Myth of the Silent Majority
Americans have learned the wrong lessons about the political consequences of protest.
SEPTEMBER 2020 ISSUE
Daniel Q. Gillion
Political-science professor at the University of Pennsylvania
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/09/protest-works/614182/
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AP Fact Check ...
The guy who thinks "law and order" applies to everybody except him and his supporters lied repeatedly when talking about what happened in Kenosha ...
https://apnews.com/e5c0dd83a2c172c0aed75b0a91517a55
To be fair, he probably misspoke because he was distracted by all the dangerous bags of soup.
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The Myth of the Silent Majority
Americans have learned the wrong lessons about the political consequences of protest.
SEPTEMBER 2020 ISSUE
Daniel Q. Gillion
Political-science professor at the University of Pennsylvania
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/09/protest-works/614182/
The only purpose of the Silent Majority was to get re-elected by lying. Kids were protesting in the streets because Nixon was lying every day about the war.
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"Encourage and demonstrate mask-wearing would go a long way for me personally"
absolutely! and that should go for 3rd in line too, eyn'a?
https://knss.radio.com/articles/video-nancy-pelosi-without-mask-at-salon-appointment
Tal Kopan
@TalKopan
Pelosi addresses Monday's salon incident:
“I take responsibility for trusting the word of the neighborhood salon that I’ve been to...many times…It was a set up, and I take responsibility for falling for a setup.”
“I think that this salon owes me an apology, for setting me up”
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Tal Kopan
@TalKopan
Pelosi addresses Monday's salon incident:
“I take responsibility for trusting the word of the neighborhood salon that I’ve been to...many times…It was a set up, and I take responsibility for falling for a setup.”
“I think that this salon owes me an apology, for setting me up”
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/WRp58hy5gmfjpMzHAZ/giphy.gif)
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Tal Kopan
@TalKopan
Pelosi addresses Monday's salon incident:
“I take responsibility for trusting the word of the neighborhood salon that I’ve been to...many times…It was a set up, and I take responsibility for falling for a setup.”
“I think that this salon owes me an apology, for setting me up”
Weak.
Doesn’t excuse President Pandemic for continuing to hold super-spreader rallies with no masks and no social distancing. He already killed poor Herman Cain, and that’s just one we know of.
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Tal Kopan
@TalKopan
Pelosi addresses Monday's salon incident:
“I take responsibility for trusting the word of the neighborhood salon that I’ve been to...many times…It was a set up, and I take responsibility for falling for a setup.”
“I think that this salon owes me an apology, for setting me up”
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Yeesh. I feel like if both sides could say, “You know what, I screwed up,” once in awhile, we’d be in a better spot.
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I have absolutely no problem saying Pelosi made a mistake. She did. Only 999,999 behind.
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Tal Kopan
@TalKopan
Pelosi addresses Monday's salon incident:
“I take responsibility for trusting the word of the neighborhood salon that I’ve been to...many times…It was a set up, and I take responsibility for falling for a setup.”
“I think that this salon owes me an apology, for setting me up”
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
I've seen some bad apologies before. This one belongs in in the hall of fame. Wow.
This of course does not excuse any other similar poor behavior.
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Hard to believe, but this from the Rochester, NY Police Department in March is worse than what happened George Floyd. Cops kneel on unarmed and mentally distressed man until he's brain dead, then laugh over his body. He was handcuffed and naked when the cop kneels on him. He wasn't suspected of a crime and he never resisted arrest.
https://theappeal.org/daniel-prude-rochester-new-york-police-killing/
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I've seen some bad apologies before. This one belongs in in the hall of fame. Wow.
This of course does not excuse any other similar poor behavior.
yeah, that's cringeworthy and is probably already being used by Donald Trump, Jr. to fundraise.
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Just thought I'd leave this here and beat Rocky to the punch.
(https://www.bestplaces.net/images/city/5539225_WI_Kenosha.png)
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Tal Kopan
@TalKopan
Pelosi addresses Monday's salon incident:
“I take responsibility for trusting the word of the neighborhood salon that I’ve been to...many times…It was a set up, and I take responsibility for falling for a setup.”
“I think that this salon owes me an apology, for setting me up”
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Pelosi clearly was set up for the takedown but this is the type of shamelessness that is commonplace in all of American society, not just the political sector.
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Hard to believe, but this from the Rochester, NY Police Department in March is worse than what happened George Floyd. Cops kneel on unarmed and mentally distressed man until he's brain dead, then laugh over his body. He was handcuffed and naked when the cop kneels on him. He wasn't suspected of a crime and he never resisted arrest.
https://theappeal.org/daniel-prude-rochester-new-york-police-killing/
Wow ... that's an amazing story. Very sad.
The effen cops haven't even been suspended yet, if I read the article right.
I guess, for whatever reason, the timing wasn't right for this to have captured the nation's attention. Maybe it's because it was in a smaller town -- Rochester is not small, but it's not the Twin Cities. Maybe it was because the cops treated it as if it weren't a big deal. Who knows?
This was a cold-blooded murder, yet another Black man treated like garbage by the cops. And it started when the guy's brother actually called the cops for help. For help! Beyond effen sad.
But sure ... let's get into a debate about whether BLM are Marxists, because that's what really matters.
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Pelosi clearly was set up for the takedown but this is the type of shamelessness that is commonplace in all of American society, not just the political sector.
true character-what people do when no one(they think) is looking...ahhhh, they all do it ism
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true character-what people do when no one(they think) is looking...ahhhh, they all do it ism
Really you’re no one to throw stones at THAT glass house.
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Really you’re no one to throw stones at THAT glass house.
you just couldn't help yourself sully, i wasn't throwing stones...just saying dude
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Pelosi clearly was set up for the takedown but this is the type of shamelessness that is commonplace in all of American society, not just the political sector.
agreed. Is it standard operating procedure for salons to distribute surveillance videos to news stations?
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you just couldn't help yourself sully, i wasn't throwing stones...just saying dude
Lol. Right. Criticizing one you don’t support for something while repeatedly ignoring or excusing similar actions by one you do support is the epitome of throwing stones at glass houses. And hypocrisy.
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true character-what people do when no one(they think) is looking...ahhhh, they all do it ism
People wonder why ordinary Americans don’t trust career politicians to “represent” them. Salon owners lose everything to COVID, Salon workers lose their jobs. Salon customers are locked out. Nancy gets a special mask free secret appointment. And when busted complains she was set up, she did nothing wrong. Is it possible to be more entitled and less self aware?
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People wonder why ordinary Americans don’t trust career politicians to “represent” them. Salon owners lose everything to COVID, Salon workers lose their jobs. Salon customers are locked out. Nancy gets a special mask free secret appointment. And when busted complains she was set up, she did nothing wrong. Is it possible to be more entitled and less self aware?
Yep. Agree on all counts. Leaders should lead by example.
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Lol. Right. Criticizing one you don’t support for something while repeatedly ignoring or excusing similar actions by one you do support is the epitome of throwing stones at glass houses. And hypocrisy.
LOL? you're a weirdo man. what the eff do you know about who and when i condemn for what and whenever? because i don't use this place as my daily diary like you means chit about where i stand on everything.
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LOL? you're a weirdo man. what the eff do you know about who and when i condemn for what and whenever? because i don't use this place as my daily diary like you means chit about where i stand on everything.
Bwahahahahha!!!
Sure.
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LOL? you're a weirdo man. what the eff do you know about who and when i condemn for what and whenever? because i don't use this place as my daily diary like you means chit about where i stand on everything.
But when you do use it, you only go after one side....
We might not be at beyond all reasonable doubt but I think we're beyond a preponderance of evidence here counselor
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But when you do use it, you only go after one side....
We might not be at beyond all reasonable doubt but I think we're beyond a preponderance of evidence here counselor
Don't forget when he wanted to fire his employee for wanting to shave her head for cancer support
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People wonder why ordinary Americans don’t trust career politicians to “represent” them. Salon owners lose everything to COVID, Salon workers lose their jobs. Salon customers are locked out. Nancy gets a special mask free secret appointment. And when busted complains she was set up, she did nothing wrong. Is it possible to be more entitled and less self aware?
Well ... yes, given that the emperor believes the pandemic is something that happened TO him. And he just said that a guy getting shot in the back 7 times was akin to a missed 3-foot putt. And ... oh ... 1,000 other things proving how "entitled and less self aware" he is. And yet his enablers and easily conned sycophants justify it constantly.
Pelosi was tone-deaf and idiotic. I've not seen anybody here dispute that. But rocket and a few others here constantly lick the boots of a guy who lacks morals, ethics, empathy and decency. So please.
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I've seen some bad non apologies before. This one belongs in in the hall of fame. Wow.
FIFY
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" But rocket and a few others here constantly lick the boots of a guy who lacks morals, ethics, empathy and decency. So please."
hold on there house boy- i never did much care for hussein
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" But rocket and a few others here constantly lick the boots of a guy who lacks morals, ethics, empathy and decency. So please."
hold on there house boy- i never did much care for hussein
I really feel like as a society we might have made a mistake teaching old men to troll.
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I really feel like as a society we might have made a mistake teaching old men to troll.
troll? you must be speakin of 82 and sully as they were the ones who had to provide the retort. how dare someone comes in here with a dissenting opinion to the "club" and dare to disagree. note 82 said "few others here", it just burns you guys up to hear that 50% or more disagree with you, but not in "your house" eyn'a?
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troll? you must be speakin of 82 and sully as they were the ones who had to provide the retort. how dare someone comes in here with a dissenting opinion to the "club" and dare to disagree. note 82 said "few others here", it just burns you guys up to hear that 50% or more disagree with you, but not in "your house" eyn'a?
Yes, clearly the post I quoted was serious discourse and not trolling.
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" But rocket and a few others here constantly lick the boots of a guy who lacks morals, ethics, empathy and decency. So please."
hold on there house boy- i never did much care for hussein
Ah good, the racist and islamophobic old guy is back.
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Ah good, the racist and islamophobic old guy is back.
Don't get him started on people wanting to shave their heads.
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LOL? you're a weirdo man. what the eff do you know about who and when i condemn for what and whenever? because i don't use this place as my daily diary like you means chit about where i stand on everything.
If you're going to pontificate and bemoan what Pelosi does, then man up and admit when Trump is a buffoon (daily). Otherwise you look like a dummkopf hypocrite.
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troll? you must be speakin of 82 and sully as they were the ones who had to provide the retort. how dare someone comes in here with a dissenting opinion to the "club" and dare to disagree. note 82 said "few others here", it just burns you guys up to hear that 50% or more disagree with you, but not in "your house" eyn'a?
It's not 50% or more and very likely won't be come November.
And its not your dissenting opinions that are the problem. It's your inability to take any sort of measured approach. You basically regurgitate links that I'm sure you find somewhere, then you get all defensive when called out on your inconsistencies.
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If you're going to pontificate and bemoan what Pelosi does, then man up and admit when Trump is a buffoon (daily). Otherwise you look like a dummkopf hypocrite.
Yup.
What Pelosi did was dumb, and her statement about it worse.
And the people maddest about it are the same people who often justify, and certainly to a blind eye to, far worse behavior when it comes from the other side of the aisle.
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Law and Order
https://www.mediamatters.org/black-lives-matter/after-kenosha-shootings-former-sheriff-david-clarke-advises-radio-listeners-how
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" But rocket and a few others here constantly lick the boots of a guy who lacks morals, ethics, empathy and decency. So please."
hold on there house boy- i never did much care for hussein
You: "come on mikey, enough of your hate toward potus. we know you aren't a fan but quit trolling those who may believe differently. if potus were to walk out in the rose garden and say stop the stupidity and violence and it were heeded, you guys would still find the hate. regardless of how hard you push your hate, you aren't going to change many(if any minds) especially during this. all you guys did was move from criticizing his leadership on covid to now this...go to a meeting or something"
Me: "This coming from someone who still brings up the former POTUS and calls him by Hussein instead of Barack to make a connection to a horrible dictator. Come on rocket you of all people telling someone to lay off the hate of the POTUS is hypocritical."
You: "yes, i have but not day after day after...and on and on and...even though we got rid of politics section, these covid threads have given many free shots at potus when there is much blame to go around"
Remember when you tried to say you didn't continuously refer to a president as Hussein to draw a dictator connection because you wanted people to respect Trump? How do you not see why people think you're a little hypocritical here?
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" But rocket and a few others here constantly lick the boots of a guy who lacks morals, ethics, empathy and decency. So please."
hold on there house boy- i never did much care for hussein
Do you think Trump is moral, ethical, empathetic and decent?
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hold on there house boy- i never did much care for hussein
And you play the victim when people point out some of your problematic posts.
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KENOSHA is the 6th largest city in the country that begins with the letter K
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KENOSHA is the 6th largest city in the country that begins with the letter K
Off the top of my head.
Kansas City, MO
Kansas City, KS
Knoxville
Kirkland, WA
Kalamazoo
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Off the top of my head.
Kansas City, MO
Kansas City, KS
Knoxville
Kirkland, WA
Kalamazoo
Killeen, Texas
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In 1994, a friend of mine broke his leg playing a game against Kenosha Tremper. We went to visit him in the hospital the next night (he had to have surgery) but had to leave because someone called in a bomb threat
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troll? you must be speakin of 82 and sully as they were the ones who had to provide the retort. how dare someone comes in here with a dissenting opinion to the "club" and dare to disagree. note 82 said "few others here", it just burns you guys up to hear that 50% or more disagree with you, but not in "your house" eyn'a?
Take a breath between boot-licks, rocket. You'll need the energy to commit voter fraud, as President Law & Order is now telling Americans to do.
Another day, another corrupt act. But yes, Pelosi said something stoopid about her hairdresser.
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Law and Order
https://www.mediamatters.org/black-lives-matter/after-kenosha-shootings-former-sheriff-david-clarke-advises-radio-listeners-how
This is some pretty sick stuff from a guy who has the ear of the potus and it likely won't even make a ripple in the national discourse. Yikes.
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Law and Order
https://www.mediamatters.org/black-lives-matter/after-kenosha-shootings-former-sheriff-david-clarke-advises-radio-listeners-how
That's some scary shyte. Another acolyte of the Law & Order President.
He's encouraging Americans to kill other Americans, complete with instructions on how to get away with it ... but at least he didn't get his hair done without a mask on and then say something idiotic about it. And, thank the good lord almighty, he didn't wear a beige suit.
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I ran a State Senate campaign in Kenosha, living at the "Executive Inn" for over three months in beautiful Pleasant Prairie right off of 94 (behind The Brat Stop which was good for coming home late from the office). Hotel guests got one free drink per night at the bar so that was a plus. The Italian food down there resulted in weight gain that took at least 2x the time to take off. Tenuta's Muffalato sandwiches and Infusio's sausage were significant contributors to that weight gain.
That is only the tip of the iceberg. Luigi's, Casa Capri, Tenuta's Deli and Tenuta's Restaurant (two unrelated Tenuta families) Villa DiCarlo, Italian American Club.
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In 1994, a friend of mine broke his leg playing a game against Kenosha Tremper. We went to visit him in the hospital the next night (he had to have surgery) but had to leave because someone called in a bomb threat
Also in 1994, my high school classmate and I drove from the NW suburbs of Chicago to Superb Video to buy a bong. I haven't been there since, but Superb video was a really goofy place, with all kinds of sex toys and dirty VHS tapes in the front, and a complete smoke shop in the rear.
Superb Video is in Kenosha.
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In 1994, a friend of mine broke his leg playing a game against Kenosha Tremper. We went to visit him in the hospital the next night (he had to have surgery) but had to leave because someone called in a bomb threat
We don't like you outside agitators!!
Actually I moved out of K-Town in 1980, but I still consider it home.
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That is only the tip of the iceberg. Luigi's, Casa Capri, Tenuta's Deli and Tenuta's Restaurant (two unrelated Tenuta families) Villa DiCarlo, Italian American Club.
Growing up there back then, Kenosha had a very heavy Italian population. The best collection of pizza places anywhere in the country back in the day. Luigi's was the best pizza I have ever has (over and over again) until the old man retired. Not near as good now.
Tenuta's is a treasure - the kind of ethnic store you usually only find in big cities. Drivin' down to Kenosha to check Tenuta's today, as a matter of fact.
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Growing up there back then, Kenosha had a very heavy Italian population. The best collection of pizza places anywhere in the country back in the day. Luigi's was the best pizza I have ever has (over and over again) until the old man retired. Not near as good now.
Tenuta's is a treasure - the kind of ethnic store you usually only find in big cities. Drivin' down to Kenosha to check Tenuta's today, as a matter of fact.
I recall from my Marquette days of fellow students mention "a very heavy Italian population" in Wisconsin somewhere and it's obvious they have never been to the tri-state area. (Jockey, no offense please.)
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I recall from my Marquette days of fellow students mention "a very heavy Italian population" in Wisconsin somewhere and it's obvious they have never been to the tri-state area. (Jockey, no offense please.)
No doubt, people ask me if I am from the east coast because they know of my surname.
In any case picked this up in Andrea's for my wife and I to cook/bake up when I get an urge for something from my childhood.
https://www.amazon.com/taste-memories-Columbus-Park-neighborhood/dp/096263462X
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Growing up there back then, Kenosha had a very heavy Italian population. The best collection of pizza places anywhere in the country back in the day. Luigi's was the best pizza I have ever has (over and over again) until the old man retired. Not near as good now.
Tenuta's is a treasure - the kind of ethnic store you usually only find in big cities. Drivin' down to Kenosha to check Tenuta's today, as a matter of fact.
Related to Judy Tenuta?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6TvuPnd1ec
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Related to Judy Tenuta?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6TvuPnd1ec
I am fairly certain yes. I remember WAY back in the day her talking about it.
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Also in 1994, my high school classmate and I drove from the NW suburbs of Chicago to Superb Video to buy a bong. I haven't been there since, but Superb video was a really goofy place, with all kinds of sex toys and dirty VHS tapes in the front, and a complete smoke shop in the rear.
Superb Video is in Kenosha.
Kenoshans thank you for your business.
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Growing up there back then, Kenosha had a very heavy Italian population. The best collection of pizza places anywhere in the country back in the day. Luigi's was the best pizza I have ever has (over and over again) until the old man retired. Not near as good now.
Tenuta's is a treasure - the kind of ethnic store you usually only find in big cities. Drivin' down to Kenosha to check Tenuta's today, as a matter of fact.
My only memory of Kenosha is that it’s the home of Shaky’s Pizza. Maybe the worst pizza in the world.
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Sure, I think it closed in Kenosha in the 70s. Definitely not of Kenosha origins.
https://www.shakeys.com/
Sorry you had to experience the worst pizza in Kenosha for its time.
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My only memory of Kenosha is that it’s the home of Shaky’s Pizza. Maybe the worst pizza in the world.
Kenosha...Sacramento...whatever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakey's_Pizza
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/1msy0o1Ma3bsLYBZUA/giphy.gif)
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My only memory of Kenosha is that it’s the home of Shaky’s Pizza. Maybe the worst pizza in the world.
You haven't been to St Louis, I see.
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You haven't been to St Louis, I see.
St Louis and their fake cheese shouldn’t even be any food discussion
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You haven't been to St Louis, I see.
Or Detroit style, 🤮
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You haven't been to St Louis, I see.
Actually been there many, many times but never eaten pizza there. Sounds like I dodged a bullet.
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Or Detroit style, 🤮
Detroit style is great. I’m sure you can get some really crappy Detroit style pizza though. But if done well, I love it.
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Actually been there many, many times but never eaten pizza there. Sounds like I dodged a bullet.
It’s trash.
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Detroit style is great. I’m sure you can get some really crappy Detroit style pizza though. But if done well, I love it.
Don't know if Jets pizza is up by you but that's the epitome of trash Detroit pizza
St Louis pizza is an abomination. I couldn't finish a slice and I've pulled Schroeder good out of the trash to eat when I was drunk.
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It’s trash.
Trash is WAY too kind. Didn't know what Detroit style was until I just looked it up, not my favorite but not inedible. I've literally passed on dinner instead of eating St. Louis 'style'.
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Trash is WAY too kind. Didn't know what Detroit style was until I just looked it up, not my favorite but not inedible. I've literally passed on dinner instead of eating St. Louis 'style'.
Little Caesars is Detroit style. I would eat Pizza Pizza everyday for a whole year then have a slice of StL.
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Don't know if Jets pizza is up by you but that's the epitome of trash Detroit pizza
St Louis pizza is an abomination. I couldn't finish a slice and I've pulled Schroeder good out of the trash to eat when I was drunk.
Yup. That’s Jets is the trash Detroit style. I went to a place in Austin that was Detroit style and it was one of the best pizzas I’ve ever had.
St. Louis pizza is brutal. But their baked ravioli is phenomenal.
Little Caesars is Detroit style. I would eat Pizza Pizza everyday for a whole year then have a slice of StL.
I haven’t had Little Caesar’s in years, but it certainly wasn’t Detroit style when I had it.
Do they still have a large pizza for $5? Not good pizza, but for $5 you can have a worse meal.
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Detroit is the origins/headquarters of three of the large national chains. Dominos, Little Ceasars and Hungry Howies.
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Little Caesar's makes a Detroit style, but it is not their base. Fun pizza trivia:. The Detroit Tigers were sold by the founder of Domino's to the founder of Little Caesar's. For which Tiger fans are eternally grateful. Mr. I poured so much into that team and into downtown Detroit in general. Sad the Tigers never got him a WS.
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Little Caesar’s is the only Detroit style pizza I’ve had and honestly thought it was good. The $5 original pizza has gotten worse and worse over time.
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Detroit is the origins/headquarters of three of the large national chains. Dominos, Little Ceasars and Hungry Howies.
And all are offensive and awful. I haven't had a Domino's iin 30 years and I've never had the other two. I can safely say I will never eat any of the listed ever again.
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Yup. That’s Jets is the trash Detroit style. I went to a place in Austin that was Detroit style and it was one of the best pizzas I’ve ever had.
St. Louis pizza is brutal. But their baked ravioli is phenomenal.
I haven’t had Little Caesar’s in years, but it certainly wasn’t Detroit style when I had it.
Do they still have a large pizza for $5? Not good pizza, but for $5 you can have a worse meal.
Toasted Rav, not baked. And it’s deep fried. I ate far too much of that back in the day.
St Louis style pizza is an abomination. Even for free it isn’t worth it. A tortilla for crust, rubbery “provel” cheese that makes Velveeta seem like real cheese.
I love Detroit style. The history is that auto workers used square pans they brought back from the plants. Proper Detroit style is thick crust, brick cheese and sauce on top. Buddy’s blows Jet’s away. A local brewery here is owned by a Detroiter and got Buddy’s recipe.
Little Caesar’s is nostalgia for Michiganders at $5 but not “Detroit Style.” Now, the Crazy Bread with that sauce, so damn good! When my cousin from MI was leaving the country his last dinner, per his request, was Little Caesar’s.
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And all are offensive and awful. I haven't had a Domino's iin 30 years and I've never had the other two. I can safely say I will never eat any of the listed ever again.
Friends I semi-trust tell me Domino's has improved a lot the last couple of years. It used to be inedible, and I'd call the other 2 "trash" ... except I don't want to insult trash.
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Don't know if Jets pizza is up by you but that's the epitome of trash Detroit pizza
St Louis pizza is an abomination. I couldn't finish a slice and I've pulled Schroeder good out of the trash to eat when I was drunk.
Is all of the super thin non-yeast crust pizza considered St. Louis style?
There are 2 places in Racine with the super thin crust that are outstanding.
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Is all of the super thin non-yeast crust pizza considered St. Louis style?
There are 2 places in Racine with the super thin crust that are outstanding.
No, super thin crust is delicious.
St louis puts some fake-ass cheese stuff on theirs that makes it suck worse than any other pizza.
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Is all of the super thin non-yeast crust pizza considered St. Louis style?
There are 2 places in Racine with the super thin crust that are outstanding.
Wells Bros and ?
WB definitely is a tavern style.
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Is all of the super thin non-yeast crust pizza considered St. Louis style?
There are 2 places in Racine with the super thin crust that are outstanding.
No. It’s like pizza on a tortilla or cracker.
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A volleyball coaching friend of mine who has never lived anywhere close to Wisconsin recently asked me if I had ever had Wells Brothers pizza. I guess it’s her best friend’s family’s restaurant (she lives in SC).
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No, super thin crust is delicious.
St louis puts some fake-ass cheese stuff on theirs that makes it suck worse than any other pizza.
Unfortunately i know that the fake-ass cheese is called 'provel'. Why do I know this? Because I live in KC and even though St.L is on the other side of the state my fancy ass grocery store carries that sh!t as a staple.
From another thread: BM1090 - this is a check in the 'don't move to KC column', one of the less egregious checks, but it's definitely on the ledger.
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St louis puts some fake-ass cheese stuff on theirs that makes it suck worse than any other pizza.
This is super correct. Provel cheese on pizza = gross.
I was in STL ~6 years ago and figured, let's try the pizza. It can't be THAT bad, it's pizza.
Wrong. I ate one slice and started the 2nd and just stopped, I could not go on, it was making me ill.
Provel cheese on pizza is foul.
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Wells Bros and ?
WB definitely is a tavern style.
I forgot about Wells Bros. I was referring to Mike & Angelos and Bernie’s (started by one of the chefs at M&As.
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is there still a ziccarrelli's or does anyone remember a restaurant byt that name? serrafinos?
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Maybe vaguely. Haven't lived in Kenosha for 33 years. Would visit once or twice a year.
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I forgot about Wells Bros. I was referring to Mike & Angelos and Bernie’s (started by one of the chefs at M&As.
Mike and Angelo's is good. Forgot about them. Haven't tried Bernie's but it's on the radar now.
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Little Caesar’s is the only Detroit style pizza I’ve had and honestly thought it was good. The $5 original pizza has gotten worse and worse over time.
Never had Rocky Rocco?
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Never had Rocky Rocco?
Is Rocky Roccoco considered Detroit style?
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Is Rocky Roccoco considered Detroit style?
It is Detroit style, but I have never heard it referred to that way.
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I'm kinda hooked on Jet's right now. I'm not proud of it, but it's slightly better than Rocky Rococo's, and I haven't seen a Rocky's in Chicago. Jet's Turbo Sticks are bangin.
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Is Rocky Roccoco considered Detroit style?
Is Rocky Roccoco still around?
During my stretch at MU there was one over by 10th and Wells. I believe over near Hagerty’s.
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Is Rocky Roccoco still around?
During my stretch at MU there was one over by 10th and Wells. I believe over near Hagerty’s.
Still around but much smaller than it used to be.
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I'm kinda hooked on Jet's right now. I'm not proud of it, but it's slightly better than Rocky Rococo's, and I haven't seen a Rocky's in Chicago. Jet's Turbo Sticks are bangin.
I'd take Rocky's over Jet's, although I've never had the turbo sticks. But Rocky's breadsticks are awesome as well.
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I'm kinda hooked on Jet's right now. I'm not proud of it, but it's slightly better than Rocky Rococo's, and I haven't seen a Rocky's in Chicago. Jet's Turbo Sticks are bangin.
My guy. Jets 8-corner with mushroom, sausage, and copious amounts of their ranch in those short little tub-cups.
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I dig Rocky's. Barely ever eat it because I can feel the NAFLD set in with every bite, but it is delicious.
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Is Rocky Roccoco still around?
During my stretch at MU there was one over by 10th and Wells. I believe over near Hagerty’s.
There's one by the airport, but it might be the worst pizza on the planet. The crust is like gum and the sauce is pretty much ketchup. I can't believe I enjoyed it as a kid, Rocky's is trash.
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There's one by the airport, but it might be the worst pizza on the planet. The crust is like gum and the sauce is pretty much ketchup. I can't believe I enjoyed it as a kid, Rocky's is trash.
Then you have a bad Rocky's. There are several in Dane Co that are pretty decent.
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I don't think we'd ever get a full Rocky's pizza .. but their lunch slices are .. delicious. Everyone in the family loves them.
I've recently been very much liking Rosati's.
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Yeah I mean if you’re going to Rocky’s for a fancy, super high quality pizza then yes you’ll be disappointed. But for a fast food meal (which is what you’re paying for and should expect) it’s pretty decent.
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Uhhhhh GUYS? PLM now?
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I don't think we'd ever get a full Rocky's pizza .. but their lunch slices are .. delicious. Everyone in the family loves them.
I've recently been very much liking Rosati's.
Rosatis is solid.
Rocky's is like meth. You know its not good for you, but you can't resist.
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Not to take this topic even father afield than we already have but, what ever happened to Wales on Wells? I mean, why did that place close? Always seemed to be crowded during my bid (86-90).
Great food. Great location. Never understood why it didn’t stay open.
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Not to take this topic even father afield than we already have but, what ever happened to Wales on Wells? I mean, why did that place close? Always seemed to be crowded during my bid (86-90).
Great food. Great location. Never understood why it didn’t stay open.
Can't answer your question .. but the owner of Wales on Wells was my neighbor for many years. About ~10 years ago, they moved out, house was foreclosed on and the bank took ownership. They moved to Texas (?).
House was flipped, last sold for $700k. That's a lot of cheese fries.
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It isn't Kenosha but just a quick post to clear up some misconceptions in recent previous posts...
St. Louis has a wide variety of pizza and pizza styles St. Louis style pizza is considered square, cracker thin, with either provel or mozzarella. Many of the responses here are referencing provel cheese. Some places do not offer provel, some offer provel in addition to other cheeses with or instead, and a few offer only provel.
Like anything else and anywhere else, some like it some don't. Just as Chicagoans aren't ordering deep dish pizza every time or tavern style etc... Speaking of, Barack Obama's favorite pizza is St. Louis pizza. He used to get Pi Pizza shipped to him and his staff so much and so often, that the restaurant opened a Washington D.C. location which is still there. They have both thin and deep dish, corn meal crust. It's fine, as it is pizza after all, and I would happily eat many types of pizza including provel. PI isn't one of my favorites, but I'd eat it and it is popular. Most of the PI pizzas are named after St. Louis landmarks.
Provel cheese is a blend of cheddar, provolone, swiss. It dates back to the 1930's and 40's grocery store in St. louis' Hill Italian neighborhood known for natives such as Yogi Berra, Joe Garagiola, going back to the early mod 1800's. Half of the U.S. soccer team that defeated England in the 1950 World Cup were from the neighborhood. It's a thicker, gooey cheese.
Original St. Louis pizza didn't contain provel. Funny enough the two companies that were rah rah provel at the time applying for patents were Wisconsin's Hoffman Dairy, and Chicago's Churny Company, both later affiliated with Kraft Foods.
Just as several other delivery pizza chains began in the later 1950's early 1960's, St. Louis had a place that did the same at that time. Imo's has 100 locations in 3 states and they will tell you they invented provel cheese but they didn't. St Louisans, Boston Celtic Jayson Tatum and former MLB player David Freese have been their most recent spokespeople in their ads. Tatum's deal is free pizza for life. That's it. There are some other smaller ones or a few location provel places, as well as bars that have it. And of course you can get a gazillion types at a grocery store. And of course many St. Louisans, Jon Hamm, Jenna Fischer, etc...like it and promote it sometimes
Some Stl pizza places I like are:
La Pizza in U. City
Pizza-a-go-go in Lindenwood Park
Melo's in Benton Park
Lots of choices.
Some of the other foods Stl has been known for over the years and their years of origin:
Gooey Butter Cake 1930's.
Pork Steaks 1950's
Toasted Ravioli 1940's
Lion's Choice Roast Beef 1967
Ted Drewes Frozen Custard 1929
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It isn't Kenosha but just a quick post to clear up some misconceptions in recent previous posts...
St. Louis has a wide variety of pizza and pizza styles St. Louis style pizza is considered square, cracker thin, with either provel or mozzarella. Many of the responses here are referencing provel cheese. Some places do not offer provel, some offer provel in addition to other cheeses with or instead, and a few offer only provel.
Like anything else and anywhere else, some like it some don't. Just as Chicagoans aren't ordering deep dish pizza every time or tavern style etc... Speaking of, Barack Obama's favorite pizza is St. Louis pizza. He used to get Pi Pizza shipped to him and his staff so much and so often, that the restaurant opened a Washington D.C. location which is still there. They have both thin and deep dish, corn meal crust. It's fine, as it is pizza after all, and I would happily eat many types of pizza including provel. PI isn't one of my favorites, but I'd eat it and it is popular. Most of the PI pizzas are named after St. Louis landmarks.
Provel cheese is a blend of cheddar, provolone, swiss. It dates back to the 1930's and 40's grocery store in St. louis' Hill Italian neighborhood known for natives such as Yogi Berra, Joe Garagiola, going back to the early mod 1800's. Half of the U.S. soccer team that defeated England in the 1950 World Cup were from the neighborhood. It's a thicker, gooey cheese.
Original St. Louis pizza didn't contain provel. Funny enough the two companies that were rah rah provel at the time applying for patents were Wisconsin's Hoffman Dairy, and Chicago's Churny Company, both later affiliated with Kraft Foods.
Just as several other delivery pizza chains began in the later 1950's early 1960's, St. Louis had a place that did the same at that time. Imo's has 100 locations in 3 states and they will tell you they invented provel cheese but they didn't. St Louisans, Boston Celtic Jayson Tatum and former MLB player David Freese have been their most recent spokespeople in their ads. Tatum's deal is free pizza for life. That's it. There are some other smaller ones or a few location provel places, as well as bars that have it. And of course you can get a gazillion types at a grocery store. And of course many St. Louisans, Jon Hamm, Jenna Fischer, etc...like it and promote it sometimes
Some Stl pizza places I like are:
La Pizza in U. City
Pizza-a-go-go in Lindenwood Park
Melo's in Benton Park
Lots of choices.
Some of the other foods Stl has been known for over the years and their years of origin:
Gooey Butter Cake 1930's.
Pork Steaks 1950's
Toasted Ravioli 1940's
Lion's Choice Roast Beef 1967
Ted Drewes Frozen Custard 1929
You could write multiple books about the history of st louis pizza. The fact is, it flat out is shít.
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You could write multiple books about the history of st louis pizza. The fact is, it flat out is shít.
It's good. I enjoy it. I like a lot of different types of pizza from a lot of styles and geographies. 👍 It must feel sad inside to be so miserable, so often, having a specific geography live rent free in your head. Although I believe you have posted previously that you have been miserable living in a specific WI locale for many years,. Madison? Perhaps it isn't the geography.
Enjoy the pizza, and if anyone has a good Kenosha pizza rec, as this is after all the Kenosha thread, feel free throw it out there. I may check it out some time.👍
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A documentary will be available for streaming the end of this month titled Pizza, A Love Story. It's been shown in theaters since the beginning of the year. Streaming and DVD release were postponed because of Coronavirus as they were hoping to go back in theaters.
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It's good. I enjoy it. I like a lot of different types of pizza from a lot of styles and geographies. 👍 It must feel sad inside to be so miserable, so often, having a specific geography live rent free in your head. Although I believe you have posted previously that you have been miserable living in a specific WI locale for many years,. Madison? Perhaps it isn't the geography.
Enjoy the pizza, and if anyone has a good Kenosha pizza rec, as this is after all the Kenosha thread, feel free throw it out there. I may check it out some time.👍
Hating the city i live in and enjoying my life are two different things.
Thanks for the faux concern about me.
St louis pizza sucks.
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It's good. I enjoy it. I like a lot of different types of pizza from a lot of styles and geographies. 👍 It must feel sad inside to be so miserable, so often, having a specific geography live rent free in your head. Although I believe you have posted previously that you have been miserable living in a specific WI locale for many years,. Madison? Perhaps it isn't the geography.
Enjoy the pizza, and if anyone has a good Kenosha pizza rec, as this is after all the Kenosha thread, feel free throw it out there. I may check it out some time.👍
Used to be a lot of good pizza joints in Kenosha but they might have burnt half of them down a few weeks ago
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Hating the city i live in and enjoying my life are two different things.
Thanks for the faux concern about me.
St louis pizza sucks.
I enjoyed my time in STL but will never move back (humidity, heat, sprawl)
Food Pros: Italian on The Hill. Culpepper’s wings, burgers at O’Connell’s, Blueberry Hill, Dooley’s and Seamus McDaniel’s, toasted rav, ST. Louis style ribs and BBQ (Pappy’s!!!), Lion’s Choice, slingers when hammered late at night.
Food cons: the STL style pizza. IMO’s is an abomination. Not there wasn’t good pizza: I really liked Blackthorn.
I’m convinced St Lousians only pretend to like crap like Imo’s as some sort of attempt at civic pride, but in reality they know it not real pizza and it’s the exact opposite of Chicago style.
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Used to be a lot of good pizza joints in Kenosha but they might have burnt half of them down a few weeks ago
Hard to find any remnants of AMC or the Brass so I have confidence of a successful rebuild.
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https://www.ctpost.com/food/slideshow/Six-CT-pizzerias-make-list-of-best-pizzas-in-208761.php?src=ctphpcp
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https://www.ctpost.com/food/slideshow/Six-CT-pizzerias-make-list-of-best-pizzas-in-208761.php?src=ctphpcp
Gino's East > Lou Malnattis as far as the big chains go
Also Pequods is legit but Burt's place is better. Same style, it's the original Pequod's recipe, but less sweet sauce.
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As far as Kenosha goes, Capt. Mike's has been a favorite for burgers.
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Back to Rocky Rococos for a second: I humbly suggest getting the cheese sauce for their breadsticks. It's the consistency of stadium nacho cheese, and really kicks the breadsticks up a notch. I'm already going to have a stomach ache after eating there, so I might as well go all out.
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Hating the city i live in and enjoying my life are two different things.
Thanks for the faux concern about me.
St louis pizza sucks.
I find it pretty hilarious that a happy guy like you could live in a city that is routinely rated one of the best places in the country to live and find a way to hate it.
Madison certainly has it's warts, like every city... but...
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Worth your time:
Kyle Korver explains why the Bucks didn't play their playoff game.
https://twitter.com/gocreighton/status/1320897911383855104?s=19
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Interesting personal reflection. One important correction, however, is that Sterling Brown was not arrested for no reason. He was illegally parked in a handicapped parking spot, sideways btw, and had that not been the case, the situation would not have escalated to an arrest.
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Interesting personal reflection. One important correction, however, is that Sterling Brown was not arrested for no reason. He was illegally parked in a handicapped parking spot, sideways btw, and had that not been the case, the situation would not have escalated to an arrest.
Have you ever heard of a white person being arrested for a parking violation? Because I certainly have not. Not to mention tasing him in the process.
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Interesting personal reflection. One important correction, however, is that Sterling Brown was not arrested for no reason. He was illegally parked in a handicapped parking spot, sideways btw, and had that not been the case, the situation would not have escalated to an arrest.
Wow. You forgot to add the part about Brown being mouthy. ::)
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Wow. You forgot to add the part about Brown being mouthy. ::)
Very disruptive to the business. Their empty parking lot after midnight couldn't find open parking spots for all of their customers.
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Are y'all that dense? I said he was illegally parked sideways in a handicapped parking spot. Had he not done so, this incident would not have escalated into a tasing and subsequent arrest.
Actions have consequences, or are now tossin' dat chit out two as partisan politics, hey?
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Are y'all that dense? I said he was illegally parked sideways in a handicapped parking spot. Had he not done so, this incident would not have escalated into a tasing and subsequent arrest.
Actions have consequences, or are now tossin' dat chit out two as partisan politics, hey?
Sure, Jan
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Are y'all that dense? I said he was illegally parked sideways in a handicapped parking spot. Had he not done so, this incident would not have escalated into a tasing and subsequent arrest.
Actions have consequences, or are now tossin' dat chit out two as partisan politics, hey?
See this is the problem. "If <insert black guy> had done everything 100% right, there wouldn't have been a problem." But here's the deal. Not everyone does everything 100% right all of the time. And Police, as agents of the state, should know this and respond proportionally. That is literally what they are trained to do. And what we pay them to do.
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I would expect the same if the guy was blue, black, green, or red. Race has nothing to do with following rules.
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I would expect the same if the guy was blue, black, green, or red. Race has nothing to do with following rules.
Again, that's not the point. Not everyone follows every rule 100% of the time.
The point is that it is the responsibility of the Police to proportionally respond. Why people choose to nitpick a f*cking parking violation, one that wouldn't even be a police concern unless it is called in by the business in question anyway, versus a overreaction by paid representatives of the state, is beyond me.
You bitch and moan about Evers' overreach during the pandemic, but here is a concrete example of government overreach that you make excuses for.
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Are y'all that dense? I said he was illegally parked sideways in a handicapped parking spot. Had he not done so, this incident would not have escalated into a tasing and subsequent arrest.
Actions have consequences, or are now tossin' dat chit out two as partisan politics, hey?
And they are telling you that the incident wouldn't have likely have escalated if he were white. These are but some of the many examples people are highlighting that on the whole, some things are very different if you are Black. But thanks for illustrating Kyle's point.
About that Sterling Brown? Police Chief Morales apologized to him. The Officers were suspended. Eight other officers had to undergo remedial professional communications training.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ct-spt-sterling-brown-sues-police-arrest-20180619-story.html
Hopefully others can focus more on the purpose of Kyle Korver's comments.
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Are y'all that dense? I said he was illegally parked sideways in a handicapped parking spot. Had he not done so, this incident would not have escalated into a tasing and subsequent arrest.
Actions have consequences, or are now tossin' dat chit out two as partisan politics, hey?
The consequences to his actions are a parking ticket. He was tased, handcuffed, and arrested. I might be dumb, but you're an idiot if you really believe what you're saying.
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Well, when we defund the police y'all will have nothin' ta bitch 'bout den, hey?
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Well, when we defund the police y'all will have nothin' ta bitch 'bout den, hey?
Perfect. Such a scary world for you.
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Well, when we defund the police y'all will have nothin' ta bitch 'bout den, hey?
It all goes back to “fear the scary black people”, heh? Every damn time.
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Well, when we defund the police y'all will have nothin' ta bitch 'bout den, hey?
I have never suggested they should be defunded. I expect them to perform better. So should you.
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Well, when we defund the police y'all will have nothin' ta bitch 'bout den, hey?
imagine-social workers?
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Well, when we defund the police y'all will have nothin' ta bitch 'bout den, hey?
Massive police reform, will improve some things. There will always be some racists everywhere. There will always be some police and other professions where individuals and groups do not have strong communication skills. But massive police reform will help, yes.
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It all goes back to “fear the scary black people”, heh? Every damn time.
Exactly. Hilarious that 45's entire reelection campaign is to get all these "Patriots" that are "for America" to crap their pants. And it couldn't work any better. He puts out videos of what is happening in America today, TRUMP'S AMERICA, and claims that this country will be so dang scary that these crazy events will happen if Sleepy Joe is elected. And they eat it up, without finding the irony that the videos are of TRUMP'S AMERICA!
Incredible.
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It all goes back to “fear the scary black people”, heh? Every damn time.
So you live in Sweet Auburn or Collier Heights? Surely not Buckhead, aina?
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Illegal parking = worthy of tasing and arrest
Minor illegally toting assault rifle across state lines and murdering two people = hero
Hmmm, I'm trying to put my finger on what could be different about the two perpetrators to cause such reactions...
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I have never suggested they should be defunded. I expect them to perform better. So should you.
Even ~98 percent of the people who say "defund the police" aren't suggesting the fear-mongering scenario laid out by Scoop's favorite tooth drillers.
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Even ~98 percent of the people who say "defund the police" aren't suggesting the fear-mongering scenario laid out by Scoop's favorite tooth drillers.
Whomever came up with the slogan "defund the police" should be fired. There has to be a better name for the police reform that is needed.
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I would expect the same if the guy was blue, black, green, or red. Race has nothing to do with following rules.
Next time you go 5 MPH over the speed limit (not following the rules), you can be fine with being pulled over and tased. I expect the police to do that to you whether you are blue, black, green, or red. Race has nothing to do with following rules.
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I would expect the same if the guy was blue, black, green, or red. Race has nothing to do with following rules.
Easy up there, Jamie.
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Rules for paying taxes?
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Rules for paying taxes?
Rules for fraudulently stealing millions of dollars from students?
Rules for fraudulently stealing money (donations) intended for treating cancer in kids?
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Rules for taking campaign money and funneling it to personal accounts?
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Well, when we defund the police y'all will have nothin' ta bitch 'bout den, hey?
White fragility
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Whomever came up with the slogan "defund the police" should be fired. There has to be a better name for the police reform that is needed.
^^^^This.
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Whomever came up with the slogan "defund the police" should be fired. There has to be a better name for the police reform that is needed.
It was somebody that understood how social media virality works, that's for sure.
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Whomever came up with the slogan "defund the police" should be fired. There has to be a better name for the police reform that is needed.
agreed, however as things have gone on it's become obvious that faction of the "defund the police" crowd are about actual defending and abolition. So, while people say "when we say 'defund' we don't literally mean 'defund'" enough actually do.
Of course, this slogan is brought to you by the generation who has changed the definition of "literally." If all of the people in my Orange Theory classes who said they "literally died" from a workout and yet return the next day then we're on the verge of a zombie apocalypse.
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agreed, however as things have gone on it's become obvious that faction of the "defund the police" crowd are about actual defending and abolition. So, while people say "when we say 'defund' we don't literally mean 'defund'" enough actually do.
Of course, this slogan is brought to you by the generation who has changed the definition of "literally." If all of the people in my Orange Theory classes who said they "literally died" from a workout and yet return the next day then we're on the verge of a zombie apocalypse.
Ahh. Doesn't get an exaggeration and then gets annoyed because of it.
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Whomever came up with the slogan "defund the police" should be fired. There has to be a better name for the police reform that is needed.
Well, some people think that Black Lives Matter is a socialist statement.
People hear what they want to hear...
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Well, some people think that Black Lives Matter is a socialist Marxist statement.
People hear what they want to hear...
FTFY.
Also, ever notice that the people railing the loudest about socialism and Marxism are usually the ones with the least idea what those words mean?
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Of course, this slogan is brought to you by the generation who has changed the definition of "literally." If all of the people in my Orange Theory classes who said they "literally died" from a workout and yet return the next day then we're on the verge of a zombie apocalypse.
(https://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/41800000/Abraham-Simpson-abraham-simpson-41829046-220-167.gif)
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Rules for fraudulently stealing millions of dollars from students?
Rules for fraudulently stealing money (donations) intended for treating cancer in kids?
C’mon guys. Rules are for black and brown people.
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Well, some people think that Black Lives Matter is a socialist statement.
People hear what they want to hear...
And some people don’t think that Black Lives Matter is a Marxist organization.
People see what they want to see.
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And some people don’t think that Black Lives Matter is a Marxist organization.
Good thing I am intelligent enough to separate the intent behind statement from the LLC that chose to capitalize on it!
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Glad to see we are talking about Kenosha again. ;D Moderators, please shut down
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Good thing I am intelligent enough to separate the intent behind statement from the LLC that chose to Marxise on it!
FIFY
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Ahh. Doesn't get an exaggeration and then gets annoyed because of it.
no, it's a statement that the same generation that runs with "we say defund but don't literally mean defund" is also the generation who has changed the definition of "literally." I don't get annoyed, I get amused. We used to do a drinking game with one girl we hung out with and take a drink every time she said "literally." Of course, the cracks in the veneer of "we don't actually mean defund when we say defund" are starting to appear with the "total abolition" crowd getting louder and louder.
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no, it's a statement that the same generation that runs with "we say defund but don't literally mean defund" is also the generation who has changed the definition of "literally." I don't get annoyed, I get amused. We used to do a drinking game with one girl we hung out with and take a drink every time she said "literally." Of course, the cracks in the veneer of "we don't actually mean defund when we say defund" are starting to appear with the "total abolition" crowd getting louder and louder.
You're new to the concept of colloquialism, I see.
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Back to the subject, is that cop in jail yet?
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Whomever came up with the slogan "defund the police" should be fired. There has to be a better name for the police reform that is needed.
I Agree. I hears one that I think strikes closer to the problem.
"De-militarize the police"
Pause. consider its nuances...yeah that works
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I Agree. I hears one that I think strikes closer to the problem.
"De-militarize the police"
Pause. consider its nuances...yeah that works
“Reform.”
‘De-militarize.”
“Reimagine.”
That said, a decent portion of the “defund” crowd is also on the “abolish” train.
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“Reform.”
‘De-militarize.”
“Reimagine.”
That said, a decent portion of the “defund” crowd is also on the “abolish” train.
Define “decent portion.” I don’t know a single person who falls into that group. I’m guessing you and I have very different definitions of “decent portion.”
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Define “decent portion.” I don’t know a single person who falls into that group. I’m guessing you and I have very different definitions of “decent portion.”
It may be where we are. In Portland and Seattle, far more than there should be and they’re the loudest.
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It may be where we are. In Portland and Seattle, far more than there should be and they’re the loudest.
So like a couple thousand in the country. Out of 330M people in America.
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“Reform.”
‘De-militarize.”
“Reimagine.”
That said, a decent portion of the “defund” crowd is also on the “abolish” train.
Source?
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Source?
I saw ANTIFA pass out at 31-Flavors last night on his "abolish the police" sign
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https://twitter.com/shamscharania/status/1325796529890844677?s=21
I was informed it was Sterling Brown’s fault his constitutional rights were violated
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https://twitter.com/shamscharania/status/1325796529890844677?s=21
I was informed it was Sterling Brown’s fault his constitutional rights were violated
It would have been higher had he parked his car appropriately.
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https://twitter.com/shamscharania/status/1325796529890844677?s=21
I was informed it was Sterling Brown’s fault his constitutional rights were violated
Man, cops need to carry their own liability/malpractice insurance. Making the citizens of MKE pay for this stuff is not right.
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Man, cops need to carry their own liability/malpractice insurance. Making the citizens of MKE pay for this stuff is not right.
As a citizen of Milwaukee, it is INFURIATING
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It would have been higher had he parked his car appropriately.
$750K parking ticket for the city of Milwaukee.
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As a citizen of Milwaukee, it is INFURIATING
I feel you. Chicago has spent $500MM on police settlements in the last past decade.
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Man, cops need to carry their own liability/malpractice insurance. Making the citizens of MKE pay for this stuff is not right.
I'm with you on how brutal the stats on settlements and related liabilities are, but anything takes a pebble from the public side of the law enforcement scale and puts it on the private side is probably a step in the wrong direction.
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In the long run, self-insuring is probably cheaper than getting liability insurance. As MUBurrow points out, you are just paying a third party to move money around.
What would be the most cost-effective is to not get into situations where the Police act inappropriately because someone parks wrong at a Walgreeens.
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As a citizen of Milwaukee, it is INFURIATING
The 20 cities with the largest police departments have paid out over $2,000,000,000 in the last 5 years to settle police malpractice claims.
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NY Times on the aftermath in Kenosha:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/business/small-business-insurance-unrest-kenosha.html
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NY Times on the aftermath in Kenosha:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/business/small-business-insurance-unrest-kenosha.html
That journalist understands less about insurance than many of the people that were interviewed. That read like a freshman year in high school article.
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That journalist understands less about insurance than many of the people that were interviewed. That read like a freshman year in high school article.
and yet their experiences with insurance are similar to some of my wife's clients' experiences who had businesses destroyed during rioting.
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Unfortunately not surprised...sad sad day
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In the long run, self-insuring is probably cheaper than getting liability insurance. As MUBurrow points out, you are just paying a third party to move money around.
What would be the most cost-effective is to not get into situations where the Police act inappropriately because someone parks wrong at a Walgreeens.
Self insure the small stuff, buy liability for the big stuff.
To make a long story short, if a loss moves the needle on your bottom line, buy coverage.
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The more I've read of the encounter the less horrible it seems. The officer has a point that if you're struggling with a guy and he's trying to escape while the mother is screaming "he has my kids" I could understand why he shot Blake. That being said, 7 shots in the back is excessive and obviously there could have been better alternatives to the end result.
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A reporter on WGN radio says the Kenosha prosecutor is doing a press conference at the Brat Stop? Did I hear that right?
Just seems like an odd location.
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A reporter on WGN radio says the Kenosha prosecutor is doing a press conference at the Brat Stop? Did I hear that right?
Just seems like an odd location.
It says the same thing in the Chicago Tribune article. It really does seem like a strange location.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-jacob-blake-kenosha-shooting-police-charges-decision-20210104-edxoyst26rbqvl44dyvuf5grvy-story.html
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A reporter on WGN radio says the Kenosha prosecutor is doing a press conference at the Brat Stop? Did I hear that right?
Just seems like an odd location.
You heard right. He kept the location secret until 45 minutes before the presser to avoid protests.
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A reporter on WGN radio says the Kenosha prosecutor is doing a press conference at the Brat Stop? Did I hear that right?
Just seems like an odd location.
The Four Seasons Landscaping was booked.
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The Four Seasons Landscaping was booked.
This made me laugh.
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It says the same thing in the Chicago Tribune article. It really does seem like a strange location.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-jacob-blake-kenosha-shooting-police-charges-decision-20210104-edxoyst26rbqvl44dyvuf5grvy-story.html
I lived at the hotel next door for 3 months while working in the area (free beer every night was a nice benefit). It actually a sensible location. Right off of the expressway, away from downtown, large banquet facilities behind the restaurant.
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The Four Seasons Landscaping was booked.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6040/6428900779_9bee2b954a_b.jpg)
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The Four Seasons Landscaping was booked.
My entire family got Four Seasons Landscaping tshirts from me for Christmas. They could probably shut down their landscaping business and become millionaires just from their merchandise. Book some pressers at their office too.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/kyle-rittenhouse-out-bail-flashed-white-power-signs-bar-prosecutors-n1254250
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/kyle-rittenhouse-out-bail-flashed-white-power-signs-bar-prosecutors-n1254250
Imagine being stupid enough to go to a bar in Racine County
Imagine being stupid enough to wear a shirt like that while out on bail
Imagine being stupid enough to flash a white power sign while doing both of these things
Imagine being stupid enough to defend this boy's behavior.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/kyle-rittenhouse-out-bail-flashed-white-power-signs-bar-prosecutors-n1254250
He seems nice.
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Imagine being stupid enough to go to a bar in Racine County
Imagine being stupid enough to wear a shirt like that while out on bail
Imagine being stupid enough to flash a white power sign while doing both of these things
Imagine being stupid enough to defend this boy's behavior.
Key phrase is "boy." He's just a dopey, high school dropout being used by powerful people who don't care the least about his long-term interests and will kick him to the curb as soon as he's no longer useful to them. And the one person who ought to be looking out for him, his mother, instead is using his infamy to enrich herself.
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Key phrase is "boy." He's just a dopey, high school dropout being used by powerful people who don't care the least about his long-term interests and will kick him to the curb as soon as he's no longer useful to them. And the one person who ought to be looking out for him, his mother, instead is using his infamy to enrich herself.
Bingo. I almost feel bad for him. Almost.
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When I was a PD in Juvenile Court, I had a teenager come to court sans any parents wearing a tshirt that resembled a Coca-Cola slogan but said Things Go Better with Cocaine. In 1980 or so, so stupidity is nothing new. He tried to tell me he had a First Amendment right to do so when I tried to metaphorically slap him upside the head.
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Key phrase is "boy." He's just a dopey, high school dropout being used by powerful people who don't care the least about his long-term interests and will kick him to the curb as soon as he's no longer useful to them. And the one person who ought to be looking out for him, his mother, instead is using his infamy to enrich herself.
He's an adult now, and made an adult decision when he pulled that trigger. Sure, he's being used, and his mother is scum, but he also isn't a boy.
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https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051
Actually brains aren’t fully developed until the mid-20’s, especially the ability to think rationally.
The parents are clearly beyond the point of help though.
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https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051
Actually brains aren’t fully developed until the mid-20’s, especially the ability to think rationally.
The parents are clearly beyond the point of help though.
Right, but I think most of us figure out that it isn't okay to shoot people from a very young age.
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He's an adult now, and made an adult decision when he pulled that trigger. Sure, he's being used, and his mother is scum, but he also isn't a boy.
Science disagrees.
We know the reasoning/rational thinking parts of our brains aren't yet fully formed until we're into our 20s, leading to the kind of dumb, impulsive decision making for which teenagers are famous. This is why we don't let 16-year-olds drink, or throw 15-year-olds in the adult court system as a matter of course.
Look, I'm not saying he's a victim here or shouldn't be held accountable for his actions. He's not and he should.
But he's clearly not some white supremacist monster who went out looking to kill people on Aug. 25. He's a dumb kid who made a bunch of dumb decisions that led to tragic consequences. I'd say his actions that night were the very opposite of an adult decision.
Anyhow, I suggest you read/watch some of the Washington Post reporting on his actions that night. It paints a far more nuanced picture of what occurred than people firmly planted on either side want to admit.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2020/11/19/kenosha-shooting-kyle-rittenhouse-interview/?arc404=true
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A patriot, according to some.
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wish the "rest of the story" woulda come out before all those lives were ruined
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wish the "rest of the story" woulda come out before all those lives were ruined
What do you mean?
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What do you mean?
go read the stories...ALL of them.
the UNARMED narrative and his rap sheet has been conveniently skipped over until now.
so, an armed man, evading police orders, trying to get into a car full of kids with a warrant out for his arrest on numerous charges including 3rd degree sexual assault. they don't know who these kids are; his kids, friends of his kids, neighbors kids, hostages...? all evidently in harms way. what were the police to do? let him go?
instead, blake, armed with a knife within arms length is well withing the scope of being in harms way with a fear of great bodily harm, danger or death. the armed with the knife thing, although in the original police report, was ignored by the "media". according to blakes own admission, he dropped the knife while struggling and getting tazed, gets up, picks up the knife and proceeds to attempt to get back into the car with these kids
the media is as much to blame for the mayhem that followed. if the whole story and TRUTH was reported, much(i'm not saying all) of the death and destruction could have been minimized. oh, and where was the national guard for this?
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go read the stories...ALL of them.
the UNARMED narrative and his rap sheet has been conveniently skipped over until now.
so, an armed man, evading police orders, trying to get into a car full of kids with a warrant out for his arrest on numerous charges including 3rd degree sexual assault. they don't know who these kids are; his kids, friends of his kids, neighbors kids, hostages...? all evidently in harms way. what were the police to do? let him go?
instead, blake, armed with a knife within arms length is well withing the scope of being in harms way with a fear of great bodily harm, danger or death. the armed with the knife thing, although in the original police report, was ignored by the "media". according to blakes own admission, he dropped the knife while struggling and getting tazed, gets up, picks up the knife and proceeds to attempt to get back into the car with these kids
the media is as much to blame for the mayhem that followed. if the whole story and TRUTH was reported, much(i'm not saying all) of the death and destruction could have been minimized. oh, and where was the national guard for this?
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/032/425/Screen_Shot_2020-01-14_at_10.34.57_AM.jpg)
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go read the stories...ALL of them.
the UNARMED narrative and his rap sheet has been conveniently skipped over until now.
so, an armed man, evading police orders, trying to get into a car full of kids with a warrant out for his arrest on numerous charges including 3rd degree sexual assault. they don't know who these kids are; his kids, friends of his kids, neighbors kids, hostages...? all evidently in harms way. what were the police to do? let him go?
instead, blake, armed with a knife within arms length is well withing the scope of being in harms way with a fear of great bodily harm, danger or death. the armed with the knife thing, although in the original police report, was ignored by the "media". according to blakes own admission, he dropped the knife while struggling and getting tazed, gets up, picks up the knife and proceeds to attempt to get back into the car with these kids
the media is as much to blame for the mayhem that followed. if the whole story and TRUTH was reported, much(i'm not saying all) of the death and destruction could have been minimized. oh, and where was the national guard for this?
Evers talking like the moron he is the day after the incident when none of the entirety of the facts and investigation was even close to being in, also clearly stoked the flames of the mayhem that followed. Instead of calling for calm and time to see what the facts were and what led to the incident, all he made were assumptions and throwing the police under the bus.
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go read the stories...ALL of them.
the UNARMED narrative and his rap sheet has been conveniently skipped over until now.
so, an armed man, evading police orders, trying to get into a car full of kids with a warrant out for his arrest on numerous charges including 3rd degree sexual assault. they don't know who these kids are; his kids, friends of his kids, neighbors kids, hostages...? all evidently in harms way. what were the police to do? let him go?
instead, blake, armed with a knife within arms length is well withing the scope of being in harms way with a fear of great bodily harm, danger or death. the armed with the knife thing, although in the original police report, was ignored by the "media". according to blakes own admission, he dropped the knife while struggling and getting tazed, gets up, picks up the knife and proceeds to attempt to get back into the car with these kids
the media is as much to blame for the mayhem that followed. if the whole story and TRUTH was reported, much(i'm not saying all) of the death and destruction could have been minimized. oh, and where was the national guard for this?
Evers talking like the moron he is the day after the incident when none of the entirety of the facts and investigation was even close to being in, also clearly stoked the flames of the mayhem that followed. Instead of calling for calm and time to see what the facts were and what led to the incident, all he made were assumptions and throwing the police under the bus.
Yes. Clearly the problems are the media and the Democrats. ::) ::) ::)
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Evers talking like the moron he is the day after the incident when none of the entirety of the facts and investigation was even close to being in, also clearly stoked the flames of the mayhem that followed. Instead of calling for calm and time to see what the facts were and what led to the incident, all he made were assumptions and throwing the police under the bus.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/032/425/Screen_Shot_2020-01-14_at_10.34.57_AM.jpg)
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go read the stories...ALL of them.
the UNARMED narrative and his rap sheet has been conveniently skipped over until now.
so, an armed man, evading police orders, trying to get into a car full of kids with a warrant out for his arrest on numerous charges including 3rd degree sexual assault. they don't know who these kids are; his kids, friends of his kids, neighbors kids, hostages...? all evidently in harms way. what were the police to do? let him go?
instead, blake, armed with a knife within arms length is well withing the scope of being in harms way with a fear of great bodily harm, danger or death. the armed with the knife thing, although in the original police report, was ignored by the "media". according to blakes own admission, he dropped the knife while struggling and getting tazed, gets up, picks up the knife and proceeds to attempt to get back into the car with these kids
the media is as much to blame for the mayhem that followed. if the whole story and TRUTH was reported, much(i'm not saying all) of the death and destruction could have been minimized. oh, and where was the national guard for this?
Few days late, a lot of people have already stated that maybe Blake wasn't the best example of law enforcement injustice. While seven times in the back is excessive it's not a good case to stand on to highlight injustice
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I remember hearing about the knife within 24 hours of the incident. I don't think it was confirmed until later.
Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that shooting Blake in the back 7 times was wrong. It may be what police are trained to do but that is just more evidence of a systemic problem.
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Evers talking like the moron he is the day after the incident when none of the entirety of the facts and investigation was even close to being in, also clearly stoked the flames of the mayhem that followed. Instead of calling for calm and time to see what the facts were and what led to the incident, all he made were assumptions and throwing the police under the bus.
The Lt. Gov was worse basing his comments entirely on the 30 second cell phone clip.
Last night, Jacob Blake was shot in the back seven times in front of his children. This wasn’t an accident. The officer’s deadly actions attempted to take a person’s life in broad daylight. Like many of you, the video is burned into my mind like all the past videos just like it.
https://twitter.com/lgmandelabarnes/status/1297998443286106112?lang=en
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If they were so concerned about the safety of the kids in the car, why in the world were they not putting themselves between him and the car? If nothing else, they were incompetent at their job.
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I remember hearing about the knife within 24 hours of the incident. I don't think it was confirmed until later.
Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that shooting Blake in the back 7 times was wrong. It may be what police are trained to do but that is just more evidence of a systemic problem.
yes tamu, but almost ALL of the reporting, almost as if they collaborated ::), cops shooting an UNARMED black man in the back. our media needs to be more responsible, they could have helped to prevent a lot of death, injury and destruction. our media needs to do better. not until it reintroduces itself to their supposed "standards" and it fits their narrative, nothing will change. many here realize what is right and what is wrong. our media is setting up the powder keg. only the truth shall set us free
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yes tamu, but almost ALL of the reporting, almost as if they collaborated ::), cops shooting an UNARMED black man in the back. our media needs to be more responsible, they could have helped to prevent a lot of death, injury and destruction. our media needs to do better. not until it reintroduces itself to their supposed "standards" and it fits their narrative, nothing will change. many here realize what is right and what is wrong. our media is setting up the powder keg. only the truth shall set us free
So Mr. Trump has blood on his hands, too, hey? I mean, riling up the terrorists because of a “rigged election” full of “voter fraud” when all the facts show he’s completely and entirely off base. But it didn’t stop him. And it resulted in an insurrection attempt and the death of multiple people.
Donald Trump needs to be more responsible. He could have helped to prevent a lot of death, injury and destruction. hey nah aina hey na na hey na?
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yes tamu, but almost ALL of the reporting, almost as if they collaborated ::), cops shooting an UNARMED black man in the back. our media needs to be more responsible, they could have helped to prevent a lot of death, injury and destruction. our media needs to do better. not until it reintroduces itself to their supposed "standards" and it fits their narrative, nothing will change. many here realize what is right and what is wrong. our media is setting up the powder keg. only the truth shall set us free
You preaching media standards and narratives is LOL-worthy considering the media you consume.
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yes tamu, but almost ALL of the reporting, almost as if they collaborated ::), cops shooting an UNARMED black man in the back. our media needs to be more responsible, they could have helped to prevent a lot of death, injury and destruction. our media needs to do better. not until it reintroduces itself to their supposed "standards" and it fits their narrative, nothing will change. many here realize what is right and what is wrong. our media is setting up the powder keg. only the truth shall set us free
Personally, I think if the cop hadn't shot Jacob Blake in the back 7 times that would have prevented a lot more death, injury, and destruction than anything the media did.
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Personally, I think if the cop hadn't shot Jacob Blake in the back 7 times that would have prevented a lot more death, injury, and destruction than anything the media did.
The media is the boogeyman of the right. It’s been perpetuated by Fox News and right wing radio for so long, it’s become a default reaction by many. Instead of having a discussion about uncomfortable real truths in this country, some immediately blame the media. It’s ironic because the media they’ve chosen to consume has warped their minds to the point they can’t see past it.
Why was Jacob Blake a powder keg? His past is irrelevant to the larger issue but it’s easy to use to distract us from that. Racism still permeates this nation. Poverty still permeates this nation. Distrust of law enforcement still permeates this nation. That was the root of what happened in Kenosha, not the media.
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The media is the boogeyman of the right. It’s been perpetuated by Fox News and right wing radio for so long, it’s become a default reaction by many. Instead of having a discussion about uncomfortable real truths in this country, some immediately blame the media. It’s ironic because the media they’ve chosen to consume has warped their minds to the point they can’t see past it.
Yep. The "media is biased" narrative is pushed by perhaps the most biased media in American history.
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If any of you guys need a criminal defense take the card of the lawyers the cops used. What they did was textbook criminal defense. Cops did not say a word, and the lawyers crafted every word of their statements to fit the series of events that there was no possibility to criminally convict. The lawyers had the option to publicly release the cops' version at any time, much like Blake's team did, but calculated correctly that it would do nothing to help their case.
While the narrative relieves the cops of criminal conviction; it does not make sense from a policing process and procedures view. This should probably play out similar to the MPD Red Arrow Park shooting and death of Dontre Hamilton in 2014. The cop did not faces charges, but was fired because he did not follow department procedures related to "defense and arrest tactics." So there needs to be an investigation into whether the cops followed their training, and if no fire them, or if yes then the department needs an overhaul to provide proper training. I haven't heard of any of this in the works, which leads me to believe this will have to be an external investigation forced on Kenosha PD by the state or feds. This should not end with just no criminal charges, but warrants an investigation.
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The media is the boogeyman of the right. It’s been perpetuated by Fox News and right wing radio for so long, it’s become a default reaction by many. Instead of having a discussion about uncomfortable real truths in this country, some immediately blame the media. It’s ironic because the media they’ve chosen to consume has warped their minds to the point they can’t see past it.
Why was Jacob Blake a powder keg? His past is irrelevant to the larger issue but it’s easy to use to distract us from that. Racism still permeates this nation. Poverty still permeates this nation. Distrust of law enforcement still permeates this nation. That was the root of what happened in Kenosha, not the media.
Bingo!
Thank goodness for the legitimate news media. Those dedicated to fighting misinformation, madness and authoritarianism have been true American heroes these last 4 years.
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The media is the boogeyman of the right. It’s been perpetuated by Fox News and right wing radio for so long, it’s become a default reaction by many. Instead of having a discussion about uncomfortable real truths in this country, some immediately blame the media. It’s ironic because the media they’ve chosen to consume has warped their minds to the point they can’t see past it.
You are right, and this was Rupert Murdoch's goal all along. But now that we are here, we have a serious problem that is only getting worse.
The nation is divided along ideological lines. But worse, they now are divided by their news sources, their social media sources, etc. All aspects of peoples lives are being compartmentalized along ideological lines, and with people spending most of their time isolated and only interacting through social media, there is an amplification of the "echo chamber".
So there really is no way out, people are close to the point that they will never be exposed to reality.
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So apparently that is their reality?
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Bingo!
Thank goodness for the legitimate news media. Those dedicated to fighting misinformation, madness and authoritarianism have been true American heroes these last 4 years.
In the case of Blake, though, a lot of the big media outlets were part of the misinformation. There were a lot of headlines with the word "unarmed" in them even though the facts weren't clear at the time. And then in addition to media outlets running disputed facts that were later proven to be wrong, many political and social leaders repeated the unarmed talking point as well.
Those initial headlines and stories were a big part of the huge national response to this story. If the story was about an armed man with a warrant who had been shot, would the Bucks and the NBA have gotten involved? Would people have donated millions of dollars to Blake? Would there have been massive protests? It's all possible, but I've got to think it's much less likely. (To be clear, I'm not saying the protests are the fault of the media, just noting the response probably would have been less significant.)
The two things I see as fair criticisms worth discussing with the media response to stories like this are how they can better handle muddy facts in the initial reporting and then how they can better clarify stories when the reporting turns out to have included errors.
The current business model seems to favor speed and hyperbole to drive clicks and get more eyeballs on a story. And the impact of the first impressions of a story seem to be way stickier than any correction or edit made after the fact. Case in point - even after the Kenosha DA laid out all the facts that were uncovered after a lengthy investigation, most people's reactions were based on their initial understanding of the situation, which was based on disputed/incorrect points.
Once the facts did come out, most notably that Blake did have a knife, there was little to no coverage of this very important detail now being confirmed. I think Washington Post was one of the big outlets that still used the word unarmed in a headline after the DA's decision, almost as if the writers there didn't listen to the press conference that laid out all the information that had been gathered. Any correction that came once the facts were clear was much quieter, much less impactful than all the initial, misleading coverage. Shouldn't the truth be the biggest story? Or is it OK to just move on without ensuring that the public really does get the whole truth?
It's not fair to expect perfection from journalists, because they're human, and they'll make some mistakes here and there. But outside of the Rolling Stone debacle, how often do we hear about the correction making the same splash as the error? There has to be a way to do this better, to hold up the facts higher than the splashy headline, right?
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I just want to be clear...everyone walking around with a pocket knife in America is armed? My kitchen knives make me armed to the hilt! Technically true, but pocketknives (in the US) are not inherently considered a deadly weapon.
Also, 2 sides to the story:
https://abc7chicago.com/jacob-blake-shooting-kenosha-police-interview-officer-rusen-sheskey/9648411/
This part was interesting:
"I'm not really worried," Blake said. "I'm walkin' away from them so it's not like they gonna shoot me. I shouldn't have picked it up only considering what was going on, you know? At that time, I wasn't thinking clearly."
After putting the knife in the car, Blake said he was going to, "throw myself to the ground and, you know, put my arms behind my back because if they did it there, and they killed me there, everybody will see it."
According to the Wisconsin criminal investigative report, Officer Sheskey said that Blake drove the knife toward Shesky's body. Blake denies this
The one thing that the video is clear about, is that after opening the car door - Blake did no lunging or "driving a knife" at a police officer. Watch the video again yourself.
https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1297698630875385856
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In the case of Blake, though, a lot of the big media outlets were part of the misinformation. There were a lot of headlines with the word "unarmed" in them even though the facts weren't clear at the time. And then in addition to media outlets running disputed facts that were later proven to be wrong, many political and social leaders repeated the unarmed talking point as well.
Those initial headlines and stories were a big part of the huge national response to this story. If the story was about an armed man with a warrant who had been shot, would the Bucks and the NBA have gotten involved? Would people have donated millions of dollars to Blake? Would there have been massive protests? It's all possible, but I've got to think it's much less likely. (To be clear, I'm not saying the protests are the fault of the media, just noting the response probably would have been less significant.)
The two things I see as fair criticisms worth discussing with the media response to stories like this are how they can better handle muddy facts in the initial reporting and then how they can better clarify stories when the reporting turns out to have included errors.
The current business model seems to favor speed and hyperbole to drive clicks and get more eyeballs on a story. And the impact of the first impressions of a story seem to be way stickier than any correction or edit made after the fact. Case in point - even after the Kenosha DA laid out all the facts that were uncovered after a lengthy investigation, most people's reactions were based on their initial understanding of the situation, which was based on disputed/incorrect points.
Once the facts did come out, most notably that Blake did have a knife, there was little to no coverage of this very important detail now being confirmed. I think Washington Post was one of the big outlets that still used the word unarmed in a headline after the DA's decision, almost as if the writers there didn't listen to the press conference that laid out all the information that had been gathered. Any correction that came once the facts were clear was much quieter, much less impactful than all the initial, misleading coverage. Shouldn't the truth be the biggest story? Or is it OK to just move on without ensuring that the public really does get the whole truth?
It's not fair to expect perfection from journalists, because they're human, and they'll make some mistakes here and there. But outside of the Rolling Stone debacle, how often do we hear about the correction making the same splash as the error? There has to be a way to do this better, to hold up the facts higher than the splashy headline, right?
Some definitely fair in there criticism, ski.
I do not know the play-by-play of the Blake case, but you seem well-versed on it, so I thank you for providing the facts and opinions you did. As you can see, rocky and others (including Blake) challenge some of those facts, so there seems to be room for different interpretations.
Certainly, over the years and decades and centuries, there have been many cases where those working for the legitimate news media should have done better, as is the case in any profession. And because they have such a great responsibility, I'd argue they have to be even better.
The competition to get the news out first has always been a thing, but in today's world - when a "scoop" lasts all of about 30 seconds - it definitely can lead to errors, as you pointed out. And when errors are made, it is incumbent on the legitimate news media to correct them.
I nonetheless stand by what I said earlier about their vital role in our great democratic republic, and I am especially grateful for their tireless vigilance these last 4 years.
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Personally, I think if the cop hadn't shot Jacob Blake in the back 7 times that would have prevented a lot more death, injury, and destruction than anything the media did.
well then, let's take this one more step back; if blake would have heeded the cops commands, he would not have been shot in the back 7 times and that would have prevented a lot more death, injury and destruction the media would have had to do to perpetrate it's agenda
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well then, let's take this one more step back; if blake would have heeded the cops commands, he would not have been shot in the back 7 times and that would have prevented a lot more death, injury and destruction the media would have had to do to perpetrate it's agenda
There should be a lot of dead or paralyzed white people out in Washington DC right now, then.
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There should be a lot of dead or paralyzed white people out in Washington DC right now, then.
maybe, but the media you guys rode in on could tell us a lot more. at least they seem to be arresting and prosecuting more rather than arresting and promptly allowing them to leave out the back door to rejoin their fellow anarchists. the media we are left with is all wearing the bumbling biden and heels up harris jerseys so don't expect too much from their side. it is funny how BLM and antifa like the cops and national guard now though as they were just last week fryin em like bacon. if trump had 25-30,000 troops on capital grounds they'd be excoriating him for being a chinese, nope, russian dictator showing off it's military in red square.
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maybe, but the media you guys rode in on could tell us a lot more. at least they seem to be arresting and prosecuting more rather than arresting and promptly allowing them to leave out the back door to rejoin their fellow anarchists. the media we are left with is all wearing the bumbling biden and heels up harris jerseys so don't expect too much from their side. it is funny how BLM and antifa like the cops and national guard now though as they were just last week fryin em like bacon. if trump had 25-30,000 troops on capital grounds they'd be excoriating him for being a chinese, nope, russian dictator showing off it's military in red square.
There wouldn't be need for that many troops in DC had not the current commander in chief, his political allies, and associated media, not spent months spreading misinformation about the legitimacy of an election.
But sure...blame Anifa and BLM. ::) ::) ::)
And anyway, I would argue that invading and trashing the capitol, and seeking out lawmakers to harm in the process, is a much, much more harmful offense than the vandalism and looting around the BLM protests this summer, and therefore SHOULD be prosecuted more harshly.
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maybe, but the media you guys rode in on could tell us a lot more. at least they seem to be arresting and prosecuting more rather than arresting and promptly allowing them to leave out the back door to rejoin their fellow anarchists. the media we are left with is all wearing the bumbling biden and heels up harris jerseys so don't expect too much from their side. it is funny how BLM and antifa like the cops and national guard now though as they were just last week fryin em like bacon. if trump had 25-30,000 troops on capital grounds they'd be excoriating him for being a chinese, nope, russian dictator showing off it's military in red square.
Deflecting from the real issues
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well then, let's take this one more step back; if blake would have heeded the cops commands, he would not have been shot in the back 7 times and that would have prevented a lot more death, injury and destruction the media would have had to do to perpetrate it's agenda
I don't have the same expectation for a criminal and a cop. I expect the criminal to do things wrong. I expect the cop to do things right even when the criminal is doing things wrong. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.
Blake should have been held accountable. He shouldn't have been paralyzed by a cop. I don't know if it's a legal issue or an incompetence issue but I do know it's an issue. You will never convince me that the best possible outcome in that situation is Blake getting shot in the back seven times.
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Police killing citizens = very bad
Police killing POC (specifically black people) at disproportionate rates = unconscionably bad
Citizens storming the US Capitol in order to overturn a fair and free election = terrorism bad
Inciting citizens to terrorize elected officials by lying to them = treason bad
Believing the obvious lies that the election was stolen but NOT committing insurrection = sad
Looting and destroying property in the name of equality = bad
Celebrating or defending a random citizen who kills because of riots = believing human life < property (also bad)
Protesting against a system that doesn't treat its citizens with equality or respect = very good
Doesn't seem that hard
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This part was interesting:
The one thing that the video is clear about, is that after opening the car door - Blake did no lunging or "driving a knife" at a police officer. Watch the video again yourself.
https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1297698630875385856
Explained by the Kenosha DA, entered in evidence is not just the officer's view that Blake reached left with an object, but also a bystander who saw the exactly that. The DA explains the angle of the video and how it misses this movement.
I beg of anyone who speaks of this episode to watch the Kenosha DA painstakingly go through all the evidence they gathered. All the other anecdotes, media, newspaper, TV are simply non-authoritative blather.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m0CRt0_vYg
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Great. Now even the mods are arguing.
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maybe, but the media you guys rode in on could tell us a lot more. at least they seem to be arresting and prosecuting more rather than arresting and promptly allowing them to leave out the back door to rejoin their fellow anarchists. the media we are left with is all wearing the bumbling biden and heels up harris jerseys so don't expect too much from their side. it is funny how BLM and antifa like the cops and national guard now though as they were just last week fryin em like bacon. if trump had 25-30,000 troops on capital grounds they'd be excoriating him for being a chinese, nope, russian dictator showing off it's military in red square.
rocket:
To pay homage to Dr. King, rather than get into a war of words with you, I simply will present a couple of reactions of Black leaders to what took place at the U.S. Capitol. I urge you to read them, and I encourage you to try to put yourselves in other people's shoes.
Rev. Chalice Overy, pastor of Pullen Memorial Baptist Church in Raleigh:
As she watched what took place Jan. 6, what she saw was white people releasing the anger that began welling up with the election of President Barack Obama in 2008, his reelection in 2012 and the fanning of racist resentment throughout the four years of the Trump administration.
“There is really no other explanation for the reason why all those people would feel comfortable enough to scale walls, knock down barriers and walk into the Capitol at a time when some of the most important work of democracy was taking place,” said Overy, a programming coordinator at Pullen. “Attempting to derail that and believing that ultimately they would be OK — not fearing the repercussions that might come — that is white supremacy.”
Some of what was on display during the riot, Overy said, “was some people’s reaction to feeling that something is slipping away from them, and I believe that is white supremacy, the ability to legislate in a way that is unjust.”
Rev. Dr. Anthony T. Spearman, president of the N.C. NAACP:
“One of the things that was infuriating each time I heard it was when a reporter would refer to those people as protesters. That’s not protesting. That is straight-out terrorism.”
He has heard the comparisons to protests held by followers of the Black Lives Matter movement last summer. According to the U.S. Crisis Monitor, there were more than 7,750 demonstrations across the U.S. linked to the BLM movement, which rose up against police brutality and racism. Violent or destructive behavior was associated with 220 of those protests, the research group found.
“How dare you?” Spearman asked. “How dare you frame what was happening [at the Capitol] as protest? That’s trying to understand it as something that was allowable or permissible. To me, to even say the words ‘armed protest’ is a dichotomy. What do you mean, ‘armed protest’? If people are armed, it’s terrorism. This is the divide that we are seeing play itself out.”
rocket, please take a little time to separate yourself from the politics and think about the way folks who are different from you viewed what happened on Jan. 6. Months after Black protesters (some violent, but the vast majority peaceful) routinely met significant resistance from huge law-enforcement teams, white protesters - some of whom meant to commit violent acts against members of Congress at the U.S. Capitol - met almost no resistance at all.
On Dr. King's day, please think about that, and about how it makes many of our Black brothers and sisters feel.
Personally, I will take it a step further. I think it should make all Americans feel sick to our stomachs.
May you have a peaceful MLK Day, one in which you reflect on how race relations in our great democratic republic have progressed.
Peace,
Mike
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Great. Now even the mods are arguing.
Nah, he set the ball so I could spike it!
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well then, let's take this one more step back; if blake would have heeded the cops commands, he would not have been shot in the back 7 times and that would have prevented a lot more death, injury and destruction the media would have had to do to perpetrate it's agenda
We had a revolution in this country about reducing the ability of the government to do things like this... we have a constitution that limits the governments right to act as you appear to suggest. Let's not forget that, or I can write a 5 page diatribe about how the constitution works, etc.
Very radical of you to suggest otherwise. If you don't like it, seek an amendment to the constitution, thereby overturning one of the primary reason we had a revolution and ended up with a constitution that limited the power of the government and executive branch/law enforcement.
As I told a racist person I know who says the same type of things.. what if it is a white kid, in a polo shirt with his collar up, shooting a bb gun at street signs... should the cops roll up and if the kid doesn't obey and runs... then shoot the kid. He of course is like well, well... because I just described the type of behavior that I'm sure he participated in as a kid. And, I am not calling you a racist, but just hope you'd apply that equally to all races.
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Explained by the Kenosha DA, entered in evidence is not just the officer's view that Blake reached left with an object, but also a bystander who saw the exactly that. The DA explains the angle of the video and how it misses this movement.
I beg of anyone who speaks of this episode to watch the Kenosha DA painstakingly go through all the evidence they gathered. All the other anecdotes, media, newspaper, TV are simply non-authoritative blather.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m0CRt0_vYg
The DA's detailed explanation of known facts and what led to the decision to not charge Reskey has 18K views. I did a quick search on YouTube for Jacob Blake and saw that the video of the shooting had 3.6M views and Trevor Noah's segment from August has 3.5M views. The Michael Strahan interview with Blake where he discusses the events of that tragic day? 58K views.
This is far from a scientific approach, and I know Trevor Noah will always get more attention than Wisconsin PBS, but it seems like there was a lot more interest in the the initial reports than the detailed versions of events coming from Blake himself and from the investigation into the case. It seems kind of crazy to me that after the initial outrage and coverage, so few people came back to these sources to better understand the full story.
This is where I'll go back to my prior questions about the role we should expect our media to play. When new facts come to light, shouldn't there be a way to lift them up above initial, flawed reports to make sure the truth is known? And maybe the bigger question - should there be a responsibility to do this? Using the Trevor Noah example, I searched the Daily Show's YouTube page and website for Jacob Blake to see if there was a video posted following the DA's announcement or following the interview with Blake from GMA, but there hasn't been anything posted since September on the topic. So while Noah shared what he believed to be true at the time, does he have a responsibility to address this again now that more information has been uncovered? What should we expect from our sources of news in situations like this?
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maybe, but the media you guys rode in on could tell us a lot more. at least they seem to be arresting and prosecuting more rather than arresting and promptly allowing them to leave out the back door to rejoin their fellow anarchists. the media we are left with is all wearing the bumbling biden and heels up harris jerseys so don't expect too much from their side. it is funny how BLM and antifa like the cops and national guard now though as they were just last week fryin em like bacon. if trump had 25-30,000 troops on capital grounds they'd be excoriating him for being a chinese, nope, russian dictator showing off it's military in red square.
Rocket. Remember Benghazi? Where the GOP held 18-billion investigations and claimed that the president/Hillary were responsible because there was chatter about a possible attack leading up to the attack. And blaming them, because military died?
Well, the FBI, Trump, and capital police were well aware of a planned attack on the capital. Yet they didn't provide protection, or act on it. Instead, former members of the Trump campaign that were funneled 10's, 100's of thousands of dollars planned and organized the "rally".
Then, they denied request for more forces. Even after they were attacking the capital, they denied requests for the national guard to step in. Trump said they were great people that he loved very much...after they attacked the capital and killed police.
Then, instead of holding people accountable, the GOP tried to claim it was really "antifa." The Foxnew's and Newsmax, and OAN supported these claims. Supported the idea that this was a "spontaneous" event. If you are looking for a biased media causing problems in this nation, you are looking at the wrong people re. the Blake incident. I followed that media pretty well, and the stories they put out then, reasonably match what we are hearing now.
They presented the "unarmed case" based on eye-witness accounts, that refuted the presence of a knife. They tried to interview the police who refused to tell their story/disclose information. That's how journalism works. Interview those present, present that information, indicate when others refuse to make statements. If you have a problem, then, with the "unarmed case," take it up with the police and have them tell their story, with body-cams recorded and released to the public right away so that there is transparency.
tldr: There is a difference between media sources deliberately pushing provably false narratives (e.g. Newsmax/OAN/Foxnews) and media sources telling the story as it stands due to eye-witness accounts and indicating the absence of statements from the police to support their accusations (e.g. the rest of the media re. Blake).
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The DA's detailed explanation of known facts and what led to the decision to not charge Reskey has 18K views.
What should we expect from our sources of news in situations like this?
We can expect our media sources to continue to try their best to capture the attention of their customers. We can expect activists to continue to push their own reality that helps their narratives.
What should we expect they do? Strive for accuracy and seek a common truth.
They won't. We're screwed. Arby's.
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Explained by the Kenosha DA, entered in evidence is not just the officer's view that Blake reached left with an object, but also a bystander who saw the exactly that. The DA explains the angle of the video and how it misses this movement.
I beg of anyone who speaks of this episode to watch the Kenosha DA painstakingly go through all the evidence they gathered. All the other anecdotes, media, newspaper, TV are simply non-authoritative blather.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m0CRt0_vYg
No offense, but you're putting too much trust in the Police and the DA. I mean, I agree that it would be difficult to file charges against the officer from the state's perspective. However, that doesn't mean that the information released by the police / DA / "bystander" is 100% on the up & up.
Watch making a murderer. Forget the latest conviction, Avery sat in jail for 18 years because the police/DA were convinced he was a bad dude and raped/attempted to murder a woman. I generally trust police, but I can't particularly blame people that don't. When the police and prosecutors are aligned, rightly or wrongly, it's really difficult to overcome that.
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No offense, but you're putting too much trust in the Police and the DA. I mean, I agree that it would be difficult to file charges against the officer from the state's perspective. However, that doesn't mean that the information released by the police / DA / "bystander" is 100% on the up & up.
Watch making a murderer. Forget the latest conviction, Avery sat in jail for 18 years because the police/DA were convinced he was a bad dude and raped/attempted to murder a woman. I generally trust police, but I can't particularly blame people that don't. When the police and prosecutors are aligned, rightly or wrongly, it's really difficult to overcome that.
MOD FIGHT!!!!
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What should we expect they do? Strive for accuracy and seek a common truth.
They won't. We're screwed. Arby's.
This may be the single most succinct and accurate analysis of the world today.
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What should we expect they do? Strive for accuracy and seek a common truth.
They won't. We're screwed. Arby's.
This. So very much this.
The Bush-era quote, assumed to be from Karl Rove, shows that the right-wing had exactly the opposite in mind:
"The aide said that guys like me [Suskind] were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality — judiciously, as you will — we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out."
The right-wing, through 1,500 AM radio stations and cable news, have very successfully created a non-reality-based reality for their followers, one on which Hillary murdered Vince Foster, Obama was born in Kenya, and Benghazi was a plot by, again, Hillary Clinton. The last four years have massively accelerated the disinformation to the point where now the perceived enemies of the right-wing are said to be cannibalistic pedophiles engaged in a worldwide trafficking ring to drink the blood of children and 30% of Republicans believe it.
Millions have been brainwashed. Ashli Babbitt got sucked into this alternate reality and died because of it. A 22-year old who stormed the Capitol and stole either a laptop or hard drive from Pelosi's office is on the run from authorities; her mother said she started acting strangely after participating in far-right message boards. Just two of the millions of victims.
Sacha Baron Cohen of all people said (perhaps quoting someone else, I am not sure),"Democracy, which depends on shared truths, is in retreat, and autocracy, which depends on shared lies, is on the march."
This is a massive, massive issue for the United States.
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This. So very much this.
The Bush-era quote, assumed to be from Karl Rove, shows that the right-wing had exactly the opposite in mind:
"The aide said that guys like me [Suskind] were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality — judiciously, as you will — we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out."
The right-wing, through 1,500 AM radio stations and cable news, have very successfully created a non-reality-based reality for their followers, one on which Hillary murdered Vince Foster, Obama was born in Kenya, and Benghazi was a plot by, again, Hillary Clinton. The last four years have massively accelerated the disinformation to the point where now the perceived enemies of the right-wing are said to be cannibalistic pedophiles engaged in a worldwide trafficking ring to drink the blood of children and 30% of Republicans believe it.
Millions have been brainwashed. Ashli Babbitt got sucked into this alternate reality and died because of it. A 22-year old who stormed the Capitol and stole either a laptop or hard drive from Pelosi's office is on the run from authorities; her mother said she started acting strangely after participating in far-right message boards. Just two of the millions of victims.
Sacha Baron Cohen of all people said (perhaps quoting someone else, I am not sure),"Democracy, which depends on shared truths, is in retreat, and autocracy, which depends on shared lies, is on the march."
This is a massive, massive issue for the United States.
Congrats on missing his point and falling into the easy “it’s clearly just the other side’s fault”. ::) Very on brand and emblematic of the sh**show this country is in, beyond just the most recent fiasco.
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Congrats on missing his point and falling into the easy “it’s clearly just the other side’s fault”. ::) Very on brand and emblematic of the sh**show this country is in, beyond just the most recent fiasco.
You're right it's not just "the other side's fault" however, nothing he said in his post is false either. Eventually the right has to have a reckoning with its disinformation and conspiracy side.
Just as the left needs to have a reckoning with its huge cancel culture problem that alienates moderates or those who hold one or two right of center beliefs but are left overall.
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"Cancel culture problem" really isn't a problem. But I get your point.
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No offense, but you're putting too much trust in the Police and the DA.
I agree it's possible officials who are supposed to be neutral, seeking the truth, are not.
But since we (you and I, and every consumer of media) can't take 1000 hours to capture and digest data, we need someone else, some party who can do it for us, objectively, impartially. Who are you going to pick? I-Team 4? Al Sharpton? Breitbart? 60 Minutes? No, no, no, and no.
I watched the Kenosha DA's presser. And sure, I'm OK with triple checking a County DA's work with a state or federal examiner.
The DA also contracted with an (African-American) use-of-force expert to review the case. He was given unfettered access and gave independent conclusions. The results agreed.
It's a huge problem that .. if the results don't reach the conclusion "we" want them to be .. it's easy to suggest bias, incompetence, etc. No offense either, but I'm guessing you didn't watch the video presentation. And you jump to "whataboutism" linking in a completely different case (Avery) to justify your doubts.
It's not impossible the DA is screwing up the investigation. But to date, his process is -- by a factor of a million -- better than anyone else's.
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"Cancel culture problem" really isn't a problem. But I get your point.
Well it is if you're losing members to online nut job forums and conspiracies. Take the Ashli Babbit who died, she was an ardent Obama supporter who felt alienated by the party. Same with the mother of that 18yr old in Massachusetts who turned her into the feds. If your options are "chill and understand that people have different world views and political leanings are a grey scale not black & white" or "you aren't liberal enough so GTFO" then those people then go off the deep end.
Well I'd take the first option.
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Well it is if you're losing members to online nut job forums and conspiracies. Take the Ashli Babbit who died, she was an ardent Obama supporter who felt alienated by the party. Same with the mother of that 18yr old in Massachusetts who turned her into the feds. If your options are "chill and understand that people have different world views and political leanings are a grey scale not black & white" or "you aren't liberal enough so GTFO" then those people then go off the deep end.
Well I'd take the first option.
What you are describing isn't "cancel culture." Cancel culture is the supposed loss of voice that someone has when they speak opinions that differ from the elites. But that really isn't happening.
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What you are describing isn't "cancel culture." Cancel culture is the supposed loss of voice that someone has when they speak opinions that differ from the elites. But that really isn't happening.
I'm confused, JK Rowling was definitely subjected to "cancel culture" but I don't believe any "elite" was the one that she was speaking out against. (Just the first example that popped into my head)
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What you are describing isn't "cancel culture." Cancel culture is the supposed loss of voice that someone has when they speak opinions that differ from the elites. But that really isn't happening.
Yea, it’s the radicalizing of viewpoints, where far right or far left, and lambasting people, who may actually lean your general way, for not going far enough. It’s not cancel culture, but it’s a big problem.
I'm confused, JK Rowling was definitely subjected to "cancel culture" but I don't believe any "elite" was the one that she was speaking out against. (Just the first example that popped into my head)
Well that’s a bit different than what you described. It’s the same idea as “if you consider yourself straight and don’t date trans, you’re transphobic”. It’s removing all nuance.
Rowling expressed a viewpoint that offended a group of people, not that she was pushed away for not being radical enough.
It’s like someone saying “Marquette is a good team with some flaws” and being excoriated and cancelled by Marquette fans for it, as opposed to the scenario you described which would be someone alienated and disenfranchised by fellow Marquette fans for not having season tickets or traveling to away games or something
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Yea, it’s the radicalizing of viewpoints, where far right or far left, and lambasting people, who may actually lean your general way, for not going far enough. It’s not cancel culture, but it’s a big problem.
Well that’s a bit different than what you described. It’s the same idea as “if you consider yourself straight and don’t date trans, you’re transphobic”. It’s removing all nuance.
Rowling expressed a viewpoint that offended a group of people, not that she was pushed away for not being radical enough.
It’s like someone saying “Marquette is a good team with some flaws” and being excoriated and cancelled by Marquette fans for it, as opposed to the scenario you described which would be someone alienated and disenfranchised by fellow Marquette fans for not having season tickets or traveling to away games or something
Well sounds like you get my general point while that Tsmith seemed to only blame the right he missed the broader point that both sides are going to have to have a reckoning with the ugly sides of their constituents or else this time bomb is going to keep ticking away. I know at this point I'm much more willing to side with one that would throw me out for being too centered than one that is actively courting conspiracies but different strokes for different folks.
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I'm confused, JK Rowling was definitely subjected to "cancel culture" but I don't believe any "elite" was the one that she was speaking out against. (Just the first example that popped into my head)
She's not an example of cancel culture. She expressed an unpopular opinion and there was backlash. She still has every ability to express whatever beliefs she feels fit to express. But just because you are free to express yourself, that doesn't mean you are free from every consequence from that expression.
Josh Hawley has the right to take whatever stance he wants to take on the 2020 election. But he also wants that stance to be free from consequence in the marketplace. That can't happen in a free society.
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Yea, it’s the radicalizing of viewpoints, where far right or far left, and lambasting people, who may actually lean your general way, for not going far enough. It’s not cancel culture, but it’s a big problem.
I agree with this. But this isn't cancel culture. Frankly I would argue that the lack of consequence from having a radical opinion on either side has taken the guardrails off the road.
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It's not impossible the DA is screwing up the investigation. But to date, his process is -- by a factor of a million -- better than anyone else's.
I guess it's all perspective. You watch the DA's news conference and think " wow, they spent a lot of time and came to the right conclusion!", I watched it and though "Wow, they spent a lot of resources to convince themselves that Blake was attacking the officer in that single moment that the officer was tugging at Blake's shirt and Blake was moving away, which then justified 'self defense'"
And moreso, in the presser, they say Sheskey doesn't even know about the knife:
The primary officer involved, and that’s Officer Sheskey, has not seen a knife, but he believes that Blake is going for a weapon and he describes that in his report.
Because really, that's all they had to decide. Was the officer acting in self defense. They said yes. I say - ehhh. But again, I believe (and agree with them) that it would be difficult to charge the officer. I also believe the officer did not act appropriately. The two can be true.
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She's not an example of cancel culture. She expressed an unpopular opinion and there was backlash. She still has every ability to express whatever beliefs she feels fit to express. But just because you are free to express yourself, that doesn't mean you are free from every consequence from that expression.
Really this isn't a problem.
What I'm saying the problem is is when you have people seeing that and feeling alienated and leaving. My bad about the cancel culture term, clearly I'm not up to date on the hip lingo.
1. We agree you're free to express yourself.
2. We agree you are not free from consequence.
3. I think we agree that if a person feels alienated because of the intense reactions and goes to court conspiracy theories that is a problem that the left needs to work out. Whether it's a trans example with JK, someone saying "I support BLM but not the org", or a person saying "I support the second amendment". We can't be sending those people off to the right and alienating them.
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What I'm saying the problem is is when you have people seeing that and feeling alienated and leaving. My bad about the cancel culture term, clearly I'm not up to date on the hip lingo.
1. We agree you're free to express yourself.
2. We agree you are not free from consequence.
3. I think we agree that if a person feels alienated because of the intense reactions and goes to court conspiracy theories that is a problem that the left needs to work out. Whether it's a trans example with JK, someone saying "I support BLM but not the org", or a person saying "I support the second amendment". We can't be sending those people off to the right and alienating them.
Yes, I agree with you. "Purity tests" on either side are a problem.
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I guess it's all perspective. You watch the DA's news conference and think " wow, they spent a lot of time and came to the right conclusion!", I watched it and though "Wow, they spent a lot of resources to convince themselves that Blake was attacking the officer in that single moment that the officer was tugging at Blake's shirt and Blake was moving away, which then justified 'self defense'"
Because really, that's all they had to decide. Was the officer acting in self defense. They said yes. I say - ehhh. But again, I believer (and agree with them) that it would be difficult to charge the officer. I also believe the officer did not act appropriately. The two can be true.
Honest question here - Did you watch the press conference, or is your ehhh assessment based on other coverage?
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Honest question here - Did you watch the press conference, or is your ehhh assessment based on other coverage?
I watched it a few weeks ago. I went back and read it again to grab the quote that I remembered:
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/kenosha-da-press-conference-transcript-no-officers-charged-over-jacob-blake-shooting
I'm really not sure what others see in the news conference that makes them go "oooh...wow, that clears it all up".
edit again: Trying to be clear. We know Blake had the knife, and may have "turned" towards the officer (while his shirt was being tugged). I still don't think that justifies shooting him. They also didn't charge Blake with attacking a police officer - so they also don't have enough evidence or eyewitnesses to prove that. In fact, that may be their downfall in the civil case. We'll see.
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I watched it a few weeks ago. I went back and read it again to grab the quote that I remembered:
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/kenosha-da-press-conference-transcript-no-officers-charged-over-jacob-blake-shooting
I'm really not sure what others see in the news conference that makes them go "oooh...wow, that clears it all up".
And just a few sentences after the quote you shared, we see this:
"And once he picks the knife back up and as he starts to move around, that is actually the first time that the primary officer in this, Officer Sheskey, sees the knife."
Wray was detailing a timeline of events, and the quote you grabbed is from an earlier portion of the whole sequence. To present that as representative of the complete event is pretty misleading. I'm surprised anyone could come to the conclusion that Sheskey didn't know there was a knife if you listen to the whole thing.
For me, the clarity from the press conference comes from the use of a variety of sources, including Blake himself and an unaffiliated expert in the field to come to review all the information they could find. You may think there's enough gray area here that the DA's office simply found what they were looking for, but to me, the transparency of the process and the way they shared all of this information seems like a good example of what should be done in situations like this. Maybe I'm being naive here, but this came across as a genuine effort to explain the information the led to their decision.
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I'm surprised anyone could come to the conclusion that Sheskey didn't know there was a knife if you listen to the whole thing.
A few sentences after that, Wray says:
The two officers saw the knife. Two of the officers saw the knife at the beginning, but because, and this is what I surmise, but because Officer Sheskey was so involved with the struggle that they could not back away, because what you’re trained to do is create distance and space, so you can take evasive action and maybe take cover, maybe create dialogue, and that’s what they did in the end. They created distance and space as you can see in that video.
His comments make it very confusing about when/if Sheskey saw the knife. The initial quote I included also says "he believes that Blake is going for a weapon and he describes that in his report" - that comment HAS to be immediately before shooting him, right? At that point, he didn't know about a knife, and thought he was going for a weapon. Why else would you utter those words. That had to be when he shot, right? I'm not sure we have access to his statement, but I'll look to see if we do.
Edit: the statement from Sheskey:
https://www.kenoshacounty.org/DocumentCenter/View/11827/Report-on-the-Officer-Involved-Shooting-of-Jacob-Blake
Officer Sheskey stated that Jacob Blake started to lean into the
vehicle as Officer Sheskey was pulling Jacob Blake’s shirt. As Jacob Blake was reaching
into the car, Jacob Blake turned his torso from right to left towards Officer Sheskey and
Officer Sheskey saw that the knife was now in Jacob Blake's right hand, under Jacob Blake's
chest and coming towards Officer Sheskey, under Jacob Blake's left arm. Jacob Blake's left
shoulder came up slightly and his right shoulder dipped underneath and the knife was moving
towards Officer Sheskey. Officer Sheskey stated the knife was approximately two feet away
from him.
So, the dude has a pocket knife in his right hand, reached across the front of his body, under his left arm. Hah, that's even more ridiculous. How far can you reach in that position? Maybe I'm not flexible, but that's basically the equivalent of a a poket knife blade duct taped onto my back. It would also be in line with Blake's statement that he was putting the knife into the car (door pocket?). Maybe the officer mistook the motion in that moment - while he was tugging on Blake's shirt.
It's just not cut & dry in my book. But my quote about the knife sighting was ill-informed.
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Congrats on missing his point and falling into the easy “it’s clearly just the other side’s fault”. ::) Very on brand and emblematic of the sh**show this country is in, beyond just the most recent fiasco.
Because Bothsiderism is complete bullsh!t. It’s a cowardly way for the Chicos of the world to absolve themselves of the raging, anti-democratic authoritarian party one side has become.
Whatever excesses the far left has are drops in the unnatural carnal knowledgeing ocean in comparison. Both sides did not elect a man that told more than 25,000 demonstrably false lies over the course of the last 4 years. Both sides have not invested in creating an alternate reality that is demonstrably false or constructed a sprawling, interconnected media operation that amplifies those lies through thousands of channels. Both sides have not intentionally created and then promoted conspiracy theories that are every bit as radicalizing as ISIS’s. And both sides did not elect a President that incited insurrection against the government of the United States.
Bothsiderism. ::) You let me know when both sides storm the Capitol in an attempt to hang the Vice President, K?
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It's just not cut & dry in my book.
And since you've had access to and taken the time to review all this information, I think that's a perfectly fair opinion. And it's inevitable that reasonable people will see complicated information and have different conclusions. But the fact that you have all this information seems like a good step. This doesn't feel like the norm to me. It would be better if there were bodycams, like the DA suggested. However, given the actual information available, this feels like an attempt at transparency, even if many people disagree with the outcome.
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I guess it's all perspective. You watch the DA's news conference and think " wow, they spent a lot of time and came to the right conclusion!"
I thought the DA, and the use-of-force expert transparently laid out their process and what the catalog of evidence contained. There is no "right" conclusion, there is only a conclusion that's supported by what evidence that exists, that they've found.
I misspoke earlier, I said that there was a citizen that saw Blake reach across his torso that corroborates the officer's report.
It was TWO civilians, one of whom is "friendly" with Blake who saw him "suddenly" move in the car.
So we have video that is obscured, plus 4 eye-witness reports, two officers, two civilians, each confirming that he reached across his torso. (Ignoring other evidence, like struggling with police, being tased twice, and being ordered to drop a knife.)
It's not about "perspective" and there is no "right" conclusion. There is only where the evidence leads you.
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It's not about "perspective" and there is no "right" conclusion. There is only where the evidence leads you.
Evidence (to me) says Blake did several things wrong that day. Sheskey did one thing terribly wrong (shooting Blake), but Blake put him in a more difficult situation than it should have been.
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I guess one of the questions I might ask is, “Weren’t the first 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 shots in Blake’s back enough? Or were the cops dealing with Bizarro Superman here?”
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Evidence (to me) says Blake did several things wrong that day.
Evidence to all of us says that, good good.
Sheskey did one thing terribly wrong (shooting Blake), ...
Wrong by what standard? Rocky's Standard of Policing?
That's where we diverge, as I don't think that's fair to the police. The police need one standard, a unity between federal, state, local law/operating procedure.
That standard says that if an officer is in danger of serious bodily harm, they may defend themselves with lethal force.
Does the evidence meet that burden? Is Blake armed? Yes, with a knife. Is Blake's arm moving toward the officer? 4 eye-witnesses say yes. Is the knife found in the car? Yes.
This evidence points the District Attorney, who is charged to determine if the office broke the law finds that the shooting was justified under the standards the police are given.
Is it evidence that we don't like the outcome? No.
Can we change the standards retro-actively? No.
Can we change the standards for future policing? Sure, although letting a kidnapping car thief drive off might raise some eyebrows.
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I guess one of the questions I might ask is, “Weren’t the first 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 shots in Blake’s back enough? Or were the cops dealing with Bizarro Superman here?”
I think this is where it would be great if we could dig into the training more. Seven shots from point blank range feels excessive. But if that's in line with training, then it's more understandable. In a tense situation like that, it seems likely that muscle memory from training would take over.
So what do police practice? What has been drilled into them over the years? And why is that the standard? These seem like questions we could easily get answers to if the right people are asked.
Also, to your point of whether Blake is superhuman, he was tased multiple times with little to no effect and successfully rebuffed physical restraining efforts. I know your comment was tongue in cheek, but it doesn't seem out of the question that the failure of continued escalation of force tactics played some role in the number of shots fired here.
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Sigh.
That standard says that if an officer is in danger of serious bodily harm, they may defend themselves with lethal force.
Does the evidence meet that burden? Is Blake armed? Yes, with a knife. Is Blake's arm moving toward the officer? 4 eye-witnesses say yes. Is the knife found in the car? Yes.
You actually didn't answer the first part of your question "Does the evidence meet that burden? " - the burden being "danger of serious bodily harm". Would you tug on someone's shirt, after having tased them, and had them in a headlock (read the report, it's very odd, the officer seems to switch his position about who had who in a headlock) if you thought you were in danger of serious bodily harm? What is serious bodily harm, getting sliced by a pocket knife? I'm not certain it meets that burden.
This evidence points the District Attorney, who is charged to determine if the office broke the law finds that the shooting was justified under the standards the police are given.
You're actually putting words in the DA's mouth. He decided there he couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that charges should be brought. I agree with this. The "independent investigator," and ex cop, "determined" that the use of force was justified. I disagree with this.
Don't forget that they also couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Blake was assaulting a police officer. That's big too, and being glossed over.
So, we disagree. Can we still meet at Arbys later? ;D
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And since you've had access to and taken the time to review all this information, I think that's a perfectly fair opinion. And it's inevitable that reasonable people will see complicated information and have different conclusions. But the fact that you have all this information seems like a good step. This doesn't feel like the norm to me. It would be better if there were bodycams, like the DA suggested. However, given the actual information available, this feels like an attempt at transparency, even if many people disagree with the outcome.
While I certainly am skeptical of cops looking out for cops, I agree, they have been transparent about what everyone has said.
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I think this is where it would be great if we could dig into the training more. Seven shots from point blank range feels excessive. But if that's in line with training, then it's more understandable. In a tense situation like that, it seems likely that muscle memory from training would take over.
So what do police practice? What has been drilled into them over the years? And why is that the standard? These seem like questions we could easily get answers to if the right people are asked.
Also, to your point of whether Blake is superhuman, he was tased multiple times with little to no effect and successfully rebuffed physical restraining efforts. I know your comment was tongue in cheek, but it doesn't seem out of the question that the failure of continued escalation of force tactics played some role in the number of shots fired here.
Seems a bit excessive to me, but I wasn't there, and you are right that I don't know what police there are trained to do.
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I didn't watch the whole show but as we were flipping channels we stopped on CBS's One Nation Indivisible and Kenosha had an interesting representation while we were watching.
When you have prominent members of your community willing to go on national TV with that message it speaks a lot about a community.