2020-21 College Football Thread

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

https://twitter.com/MatthewGut21/status/1294310227362426882?s=20

Many Syracuse FB players, who already have sat out 3 practices, may opt out of the 2020 season as early as today, sources tell
@TheAthletic. “They have concerns about the long-term effects of the virus, and they don’t think there’s going to be a season anyway,” one person said.

[MUBurrow]

Not to completely dismiss the point, but BMI is horsesh*t, and especially worthless when talking about athletes.
According to BMI, a person like Brian Urlacher - who played at about 6'4", 255 - was obese. So is Mike Trout at 6'2", 235. Aaron Donald, who's a shredded 6'1", 284, is grossly obese according to BMI. LeBron James, at 6'9", 250, is merely overweight. Patrick Kane, at 5'10", 180, also is overweight according to BMI.
It's trash.

Obesity is for sure a co-morbidity for COVID, but you can't lump athletes in with the 50-year-old guy who's carrying an extra 35 pounds because he's sitting on the couch every night choking down IPAs and potato chips.

This is almost certainly true. And to bridge the gap with '82's post and meet in the middle, I just don't think there's any way to know what would happen if covid started sweeping through football locker rooms.  I look at a guy like Joe Thomas, who played at 6' 6" 312, retired after the 2017 season, and was down to 255 by June 2019.  That was absolutely an "in shape" 312, but if covid attacks the heart tissue, gotta think that heart was also under a lot of stress supporting that extra 75lbs.

[MU82]

This is almost certainly true. And to bridge the gap with '82's post and meet in the middle, I just don't think there's any way to know what would happen if covid started sweeping through football locker rooms.  I look at a guy like Joe Thomas, who played at 6' 6" 312, retired after the 2017 season, and was down to 255 by June 2019.  That was absolutely an "in shape" 312, but if covid attacks the heart tissue, gotta think that heart was also under a lot of stress supporting that extra 75lbs.

Burrow:

Totally understand what Pakuni was saying, and I thank you for this post. Well stated.

[GooooMarquette]

Not to completely dismiss the point, but BMI is horsesh*t, and especially worthless when talking about athletes.
According to BMI, a person like Brian Urlacher - who played at about 6'4", 255 - was obese. So is Mike Trout at 6'2", 235. Aaron Donald, who's a shredded 6'1", 284, is grossly obese according to BMI. LeBron James, at 6'9", 250, is merely overweight. Patrick Kane, at 5'10", 180, also is overweight according to BMI.
It's trash.

Obesity is for sure a co-morbidity for COVID, but you can't lump athletes in with the 50-year-old guy who's carrying an extra 35 pounds because he's sitting on the couch every night choking down IPAs and potato chips.

With all due respect, it is premature to draw that kind of conclusion on the link between BMI and COVID morbidity. Experts still don't know why people with higher BMIs are at higher risk for serious illness from COVID...and some of the current theories have nothing to do with whether a person is 'healthy.' For example, a recent paper in Mayo Clinic Proceedings noted that fat tissue has a higher concentration of ACE2 receptors than other types of tissue. Since COVID is known specifically to attack ACE2 receptors, the paper suggests that more fat = more places for COVID to thrive and attack.

Additionally, simply carrying more weight - fat or not - makes a person more likely to be insulin-resistant. That causes the pancreas to produce higher levels of insulin, and that causes production of more ACE2 receptors as well.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200714/why-obesity-may-stack-the-deck-for-covid-19-risk

So yeah - there are plenty of athletes that are 'healthy' despite having higher than average BMIs. But being 'healthy' might not be the point....

[Pakuni]

With all due respect, it is premature to draw that kind of conclusion on the link between BMI and COVID morbidity.

I'll just leave this here

https://www.ajmc.com/view/kaiser-severe-obesity-boosts-risk-of-covid-19-death-especially-for-the-young


Severe obesity puts those with coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) at particularly high risk of death, more so than related risk factors such as diabetes or hypertension, according to a study of patient records that researchers from Kaiser Permanente published today.

The study, appearing in Annals of Internal Medicine,1 showed that obesity is especially dangerous for men and younger patients who contract COVID-19, and that obesity stood out from racial, ethnic, or socioeconomic disparities when isolated from those factors.

Data from the 6916 patients in the study show that compared with those at normal body mass index (BMI) of 18.5 to 24 kg/m2, the risk of death more than doubled for patients with a body mass index (BMI) of 40 to 44 kg/m2 (relative risk of 2.68; 95% CI, 1.43 to 5.04) and nearly doubled again for those with a BMI of 45 kg/m2 (relative risk of 4.18; 95% CI, 2.12 to 8.26).

“This risk was most striking among those aged 60 years or younger and men,” the authors wrote.

In an accompanying editorial, David A. Kass, MD, a cardiologist at John Hopkins University, wrote that these findings, when taken with prior research, “should put to rest the contention that obesity is common in severe COVID-19 because it is common in the population. Obesity is an important independent risk factor for serious COVID-19 disease.”

[GooooMarquette]

I'll just leave this here

https://www.ajmc.com/view/kaiser-severe-obesity-boosts-risk-of-covid-19-death-especially-for-the-young


Severe obesity puts those with coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) at particularly high risk of death, more so than related risk factors such as diabetes or hypertension, according to a study of patient records that researchers from Kaiser Permanente published today.

The study, appearing in Annals of Internal Medicine,1 showed that obesity is especially dangerous for men and younger patients who contract COVID-19, and that obesity stood out from racial, ethnic, or socioeconomic disparities when isolated from those factors.

Data from the 6916 patients in the study show that compared with those at normal body mass index (BMI) of 18.5 to 24 kg/m2, the risk of death more than doubled for patients with a body mass index (BMI) of 40 to 44 kg/m2 (relative risk of 2.68; 95% CI, 1.43 to 5.04) and nearly doubled again for those with a BMI of 45 kg/m2 (relative risk of 4.18; 95% CI, 2.12 to 8.26).

“This risk was most striking among those aged 60 years or younger and men,” the authors wrote.

In an accompanying editorial, David A. Kass, MD, a cardiologist at John Hopkins University, wrote that these findings, when taken with prior research, “should put to rest the contention that obesity is common in severe COVID-19 because it is common in the population. Obesity is an important independent risk factor for serious COVID-19 disease.”

I wasn't disagreeing that obesity puts people at higher risk for COVID  morbidity and mortality. That is substantiated throughout the literature.

I was simply pointing out that it is premature to say that 'healthy' obese people are somehow better off. That's why I said it is "premature to draw that kind of conclusion (i.e., that 'obese' football players are better off than 'obese' couch potatoes) on the link between BMI and COVID morbidity." And nothing in your link disputes that. In fact, it disputes your earlier point that "BMI is horsesh!t."

[Pakuni]

I wasn't disagreeing that obesity puts people at higher risk for COVID  morbidity and mortality. That is substantiated throughout the literature.

I was simply pointing out that it is premature to say that 'healthy' obese people are somehow better off. That's why I said it is "premature to draw that kind of conclusion (i.e., that 'obese' football players are better off than 'obese' couch potatoes) on the link between BMI and COVID morbidity." And nothing in your link disputes that. In fact, it disputes your earlier point that "BMI is horsesh!t."

OK, but what I'm saying is there's no such thing as "healthy obese" people. Obese people are not healthy and healthy people are not obese. Athletes like the ones I mentioned are not obese, and the fact BMI categorizes them as such illustrates BMI's lack of value. Obesity is defined as "abnormal or excessive fat accumulation." With very few exceptions (i.e. the 6'1", 340 nose tackles), college athletes do not fit that bill.

Not arguing for or against college football here, but the hypocrisy surrounding these decisions is stunning. The reality is the athletes with incentive to stay well (so they can play) are probably the least at-risk people on campus. There are going to be far more overweight and otherwise unhealthy people in the regular student body, and they're going to be packed into crowded dorms and off-campus housing, and almost assuredly not social distancing on Friday and Saturday nights. And yet some of the same university presidents who've decided athletics are unsafe are bringing the rest of the student body back to campus right now.
/rant ended

[GooooMarquette]

OK, but what I'm saying is there's no such thing as "healthy obese" people. Obese people are not healthy and healthy people are not obese. Athletes like the ones I mentioned are not obese, and the fact BMI categorizes them as such illustrates BMI's lack of value. Obesity is defined as "abnormal or excessive fat accumulation." With very few exceptions (i.e. the 6'1", 340 nose tackles), college athletes do not fit that bill.

The medical community disagrees with you. BMI was used to define obesity by the doc from Johns Hopkins in the article you linked, and it is used by the docs at Mayo Clinic.

Specifically with respect to COVID, BMI might very well be a good indicator of susceptibility, regardless of the person’s time in the 40. The mere fact that a body has more weight than it should makes it less healthy than it otherwise would be. The comment in my earlier post about insulin resistance is a great case in point. Simply having more tissue than the pancreas can keep up with can lead to an increase in ACE2 receptors - potentially a setup for a nasty COVID outcome.

And even if docs adopted your restrictive view regarding excess fat regardless of BMI, the number of football players who meet that criterion is dramatically higher than you think. Just look at the offensive and defensive lines of any major college football team or NFL team, and you will see tremendous athletes who have more belly fat than anyone would call ‘healthy.’

[Pakuni]

The medical community disagrees with you.

So, I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue now, but if your point is that BMI in itself is an indicator of health, then I can point you to numerous  studies like the UCLA one below that finds otherwise. 

https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/dont-use-body-mass-index-to-determine-whether-people-are-healthy-ucla-led-study-says


But hey, if you want stick to your guns and tell us Mike Trout and Aaron Donald are excessively fat, have at it.

[GooooMarquette]

So, I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue now, but if your point is that BMI in itself is an indicator of health, then I can point you to numerous  studies like the UCLA one below that finds otherwise. 

https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/dont-use-body-mass-index-to-determine-whether-people-are-healthy-ucla-led-study-says


But hey, if you want stick to your guns and tell us Mike Trout and Aaron Donald are excessively fat, have at it.

I have never said that 'Mike Trout and Aaron Donald are excessively fat,' so don't put words in my mouth.

I have consistently said that - in accordance with with what Johns Hopkins and Mayo Clinic have said - BMI is a good measure of health status, and they don't make exceptions for athletes. And it is not just about being 'fat,' although you consistently ignore that part of my argument. I am talking abut high BMI possibly being a risk factor for COVID morbidity and mortality, and I have pointed out the reasons multiple times above. To reiterate: ACE2 receptors, insulin resistance, possibly other factors - read about them.

Choose to ignore the scientific arguments with hyperbole about being 'excessively fat' if you like, but that doesn't make the issue go away.

[Pakuni]

I have never said that 'Mike Trout and Aaron Donald are excessively fat,' so don't put words in my mouth.

I have consistently said that - in accordance with with what Johns Hopkins and Mayo Clinic have said - BMI is a good measure of health status, and they don't make exceptions for athletes. And it is not just about being 'fat,' although you consistently ignore that part of my argument. I am talking abut high BMI possibly being a risk factor for COVID morbidity and mortality, and I have pointed out the reasons multiple times above. To reiterate: ACE2 receptors, insulin resistance, possibly other factors - read about them.

Choose to ignore the scientific arguments with hyperbole about being 'excessively fat' if you like, but that doesn't make the issue go away.

You're correct. You didn't call Aaron Donald or Mike Trout excessively fat. You merely defended the accuracy and value of a tool - including for athletes - that says Aaron Donald and Mike Trout are excessively fat.
My mistake for not making that distinction.

I chose earlier not to correct your mistake regarding insulin reduction and weight, but since you insist ... your comments are wrong, according to the science.
As you can see from this study, having more muscle mass actually protects against insulin resistance.
"In a cross-sectional study, every 10% increase in the ratio of skeletal muscle mass to total body weight was associated with an 11% reduction in risk of insulin resistance and a 12% drop in risk of transitional, prediabetes, or overt diabetes, Preethi Srikanthan, MD, of the University of California Los Angeles, and colleagues reported online in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism."
The findings point to the importance of gauging muscle mass, in addition to other established risk factors such as body mass index (BMI) and waist circumference when assessing a patient's metabolic health, the researchers said."

https://www.medpagetoday.org/clinical-context/type2diabetes/27816?vpass=1

So while you're correct that the wrong kind of excess weight can increase insulin resistance, you're wrong that it's "fat or not."

And since you like to cite Mayo for defending BMI, it sounds like they agree with me:
"That said, BMI does not always provide the full story regarding health risks for some people. That is because it does not take into consideration individual factors, such as bone or muscle mass. For example, if you lead an active lifestyle and regularly participate in both aerobic exercise and weight training activities, you may have a healthy percentage of body fat despite having a BMI above the normal range. So in that situation, a higher BMI does not necessarily translate to higher health risks. "

https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-q-and-a-bmi-is-not-the-only-indicator-of-your-overall-health/

You say I'm ignoring the scientific arguments, but I'm not. I keep posting links to the science, and the science says you're wrong. First you claimed no scientific link between BMI and COVID mortality, which is wrong, and now you're saying muscle weight is the same as fat weight when it comes to insulin reduction ... also wrong.
I don't doubt you're a smart person with some knowledge of health care or science, but some of the things you've been saying are provably false.

Anyhow, we're far afield from college football at this point, so I'll drop it. Last word is yours if you want it.

[GooooMarquette]

You're correct. You didn't call Aaron Donald or Mike Trout excessively fat. You merely defended the accuracy and value of a tool - including for athletes - that says Aaron Donald and Mike Trout are excessively fat.
My mistake for not making that distinction.

I chose earlier not to correct your mistake regarding insulin reduction and weight, but since you insist ... your comments are wrong, according to the science.
As you can see from this study, having more muscle mass actually protects against insulin resistance.
"In a cross-sectional study, every 10% increase in the ratio of skeletal muscle mass to total body weight was associated with an 11% reduction in risk of insulin resistance and a 12% drop in risk of transitional, prediabetes, or overt diabetes, Preethi Srikanthan, MD, of the University of California Los Angeles, and colleagues reported online in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism."
The findings point to the importance of gauging muscle mass, in addition to other established risk factors such as body mass index (BMI) and waist circumference when assessing a patient's metabolic health, the researchers said."

https://www.medpagetoday.org/clinical-context/type2diabetes/27816?vpass=1

So while you're correct that the wrong kind of excess weight can increase insulin resistance, you're wrong that it's "fat or not."

And since you like to cite Mayo for defending BMI, it sounds like they agree with me:
"That said, BMI does not always provide the full story regarding health risks for some people. That is because it does not take into consideration individual factors, such as bone or muscle mass. For example, if you lead an active lifestyle and regularly participate in both aerobic exercise and weight training activities, you may have a healthy percentage of body fat despite having a BMI above the normal range. So in that situation, a higher BMI does not necessarily translate to higher health risks. "

https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-q-and-a-bmi-is-not-the-only-indicator-of-your-overall-health/

You say I'm ignoring the scientific arguments, but I'm not. I keep posting links to the science, and the science says you're wrong. First you claimed no scientific link between BMI and COVID mortality, which is wrong, and now you're saying muscle weight is the same as fat weight when it comes to insulin reduction ... also wrong.
I don't doubt you're a smart person with some knowledge of health care or science, but some of the things you've been saying are provably false.

Anyhow, we're far afield from college football at this point, so I'll drop it. Last word is yours if you want it.

You really ought to go back and read my posts, because you clearly missed, or misunderstood, what I said.

There does appear to be a link between BMI and COVID mortality. I said that all along, and it was clearly stated in the link that quoted the Johns Hopkins researcher. I was disputing your specific claim that the BMI-COVID link doesn't apply to athletes.

And I never said 'muscle weight is the same as fat weight' when it comes to insulin resistance. My point was simply that it's more complicated than simply fat = insulin resistance...which it is.

Finally, your links talk generally about BMI and overall health in athletes. My link talked specifically about BMI and COVID, with alternative theories that may be independent of just fat. I think the latter is more relevant here.

I will leave it at that.

[Pakuni]

Big 10 getting some pushback from players and their parents.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/29674110/ohio-state-qb-justin-fields-starts-petition-relaunch-big-ten-season

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The Big Ten really has handled this whole thing poorly. Should never have released the alternative schedule. Should have asked for a unanimous vote and no coaches dissent. Poorly done.

[Uncle Rico]

The Big Ten really has handled this whole thing poorly. Should never have released the alternative schedule. Should have asked for a unanimous vote and no coaches dissent. Poorly done.

Couldn’t happen to a better league

[Mr. Nielsen]

Bring back Jim Delany!

[The Big East]

UNC goes all online but keeping football and definitely will be keeping basketball.  Important to note that Bubba Cunningham and Bill Scholl are good friends from Notre Dame days......


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/sports/ncaafootball/unc-football-acc-online-classes.html

[GooooMarquette]

UNC goes all online but keeping football and definitely will be keeping basketball.  Important to note that Bubba Cunningham and Bill Scholl are good friends from Notre Dame days......


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/sports/ncaafootball/unc-football-acc-online-classes.html

Students go home, athletes stay here, and never the twain shall meet.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Other students will be staying as well. Athletics are important to schools. I really don’t see this as big an issue as most. It just needs to be done safely.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So now the Big Ten is talking about a fall season starting around Thanksgiving.

That really makes no sense at all.  But whatever....

[Hards Alumni]

So now the Big Ten is talking about a fall season starting around Thanksgiving.

That really makes no sense at all.  But whatever....

Seems like the model that has been suggested for bubble college basketball.  They'd be able to pull off an 8 week season before classes resume in January... right?

on a side note, BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Seems like the model that has been suggested for bubble college basketball.  They'd be able to pull off an 8 week season before classes resume in January... right?

on a side note, BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

But no post season to play for.  And they aren't going to be able to bubble these teams completely.

[MU82]

Wait ... if I didn't read this in Smuggles' "tectonic change" thread, how am I expected to believe it?

[Uncle Rico]

Wait ... if I didn't read this in Smuggles' "tectonic change" thread, how am I expected to believe it?

Universities that have gone back to class aren’t controlling Covid spread at all and meathead football coaches think they can.  Oklahoma had a whole position group have to quarantine.  University presidents may have to deal with angry alumni but it’s better than dealing with lawyers in the long run. 

[Billy Hoyle]

Universities that have gone back to class aren’t controlling Covid spread at all and meathead football coaches think they can.  Oklahoma had a whole position group have to quarantine.  University presidents may have to deal with angry alumni but it’s better than dealing with lawyers in the long run.

angry alumni? The real angry groups are people who have only set foot on a college campus to attend a football game.