Masks

[warriorchick]

Hmmm your coworker's preschool aged niece is probably over the age of 5 and therefore has had ample opportunity to be vaccinated.  Just like the adults have had plenty of time to become vaccinated as well.  So they're as protected as they can be.

Preschool means ages 3-4.  Maybe barely 5 if they have an early birthday.  And unless they immediately jumped on it, a barely-5-year-old with next to no chance of being fully vaccinated.

[larrym]

My eight and nine-year-old kids got their first shot the first week that they could.  That was two weeks ago Saturday. Because their clinic is putting in an extra week due to Thanksgiving, they won’t be two weeks out from the second shot until Christmas Day.  We’re getting there, but it takes a while from the time the vaccine is approved until that age group can be fully vaccinated.

Hmmm your coworker's preschool aged niece is probably over the age of 5 and therefore has had ample opportunity to be vaccinated under 5 and at a extremely low risk of hospitalization and even less for death.  Just like the adults have had plenty of time to become vaccinated as well.  So they're as protected as they can be.

Likely no one will be hospitalized, and even less likely someone will die.

What exactly do you expect to happen?  We aren't ever going to zero.

edit:  apparently I think preschoolers are older than they are.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Disagree that we're there (but we're getting close). My friends have kids that are sub-5 with other issues that are unable to get vaccinated because of their age.

Thankfully we live in Chicago where we've been able to keep the spread lower than rural areas because the mask mandates are enforced. Just like Madison. Despite the high population density, both cities have low infection rate per 100k residents.

I get that. But I question if mask mandates are going to significantly change numbers at this point.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I know.   As my coworker is busy changing his Thanksgiving plans since his pre-school aged niece brought it home and infected his sister and brother in law.   

You can believe anything you want.   This ongoing pandemic has proven that.  What do the current numbers say?

Your friend would have changed plans in the past had the pre schooler brought home the flu or a cold. We aren’t going to ever get to Zero Covid so bringing up anecdotal stories isn’t very useful.

[MU82]

Mask wearing cuts the number of new Covid-19 infections by 53%, according to a new peer reviewed study in the British Medical Journal, which found the controversial and highly politicized precaution to be the single most effective tool against the coronavirus.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/11/18/mask-wearing-cuts-new-covid-19-cases-by-53-its-the-best-public-health-measure-against-the-virus-study-finds/?sh=24f3d26912ab&utm_term=OZY&utm_campaign=daily-dose&utm_content=Wednesday_11.24.21&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email

I agree that there does need to be an end eventually. I'm sure many (most?) states have specific benchmarks identified as to when there need not be mask mandates. NC requires a positivity rate of 5% or less, and that seems reasonable to me. I think it would be helpful to have some kind of guideline everywhere so governors aren't just saying, "Yay" or "nay." And should any governor really be making executive orders barring companies from establishing their own mandates?

I just got home from Publix. I wish I didn't have to wear a mask. But that 25 minutes in the store with a mask on wasn't really a "burden."

[Hards Alumni]

My eight and nine-year-old kids got their first shot the first week that they could.  That was two weeks ago Saturday. Because their clinic is putting in an extra week due to Thanksgiving, they won’t be two weeks out from the second shot until Christmas Day.  We’re getting there, but it takes a while from the time the vaccine is approved until that age group can be fully vaccinated.

The current Dane County mask mandate (which is what I was originally referring to) was set to expire 11/27. 

Also, if they would say 1/3/22 is the line in the sand where we can drop the mandate and stick to it, I'd have no problem.

I have a problem with Dane Co arbitrarily pushing the expiration date back without a clear goal.

[pbiflyer]

Seriously?  Go over my posting history in this topic and if you can continue claim I "don't want to do anything to help end it," then you're an idiot. 

Honestly, making a conclusion like that cause I used one word. 

You said many people. I wasn’t referring specifically to you, but obviously you were.
Interesting.
Ironic when you are calling me an idiot.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You said many people. I wasn’t referring specifically to you, but obviously you were.
Interesting.
Ironic when you are calling me an idiot.

You clearly have trouble with the English language pal. Go back and figure it out.

[larrym]

I’m in Dane County.  I think you are too.  When they brought back the mask order over the summer I believe they said they were following the CDC guidelines of masking when transmission in the area was high.  The latest numbers here are more than double of what the threshold for high transmission is.  My guess is the mask order will expire before we get back under the high threshold, but hopefully will be trending that way. 

It sounds like they were saying yesterday that they were extending this just long enough to get to the other side of the holidays and for the kids 5 to 11 to get vaccinated. I don’t expect any more extensions.

The current Dane County mask mandate (which is what I was originally referring to) was set to expire 11/27. 

Also, if they would say 1/3/22 is the line in the sand where we can drop the mandate and stick to it, I'd have no problem.

I have a problem with Dane Co arbitrarily pushing the expiration date back without a clear goal.

[Hards Alumni]

I’m in Dane County.  I think you are too.  When they brought back the mask order over the summer I believe they said they were following the CDC guidelines of masking when transmission in the area was high.  The latest numbers here are more than double of what the threshold for high transmission is.  My guess is the mask order will expire before we get back under the high threshold, but hopefully will be trending that way. 

It sounds like they were saying yesterday that they were extending this just long enough to get to the other side of the holidays and for the kids 5 to 11 to get vaccinated. I don’t expect any more extensions.

Yes, I am.  If that was going to be the case all along, then just say that.  What they're doing is absolutely foolish and it will burn people out even faster. 

Furthermore, the use of transmission is also foolish, considering vaccination rates are very high in Dane Co. 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that they're not being logical about this, nor are they following the science.

[pbiflyer]

You clearly have trouble with the English language pal. Go back and figure it out.

Buddy, this was your quote:

Many people don’t.

Many does not equal you. I’m not the one that has language issues sparky.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Buddy, this was your quote:

Many does not equal you. I’m not the one that has language issues sparky.

Nope. Read what you wrote and what I responded to.

[forgetful]

People have a safe and effective tool to end this, but refuse to use it, so I disagree.

Define "end this". What about in high risk environments (e.g. schools), where parents send, or kids go to class despite exhibiting cold/flu symptoms often.

Vaccines work and will help mitigate death, but what about missing 2-weeks of work (which means a 2nd illness of any type results in going unpaid), and possibly dealing with long-term lung issues, mental health issues, or a number of other long-COVID symptoms that still can occur in the vaccinated.

I know teachers that were hospitalized for weeks, despite being vaccinated, because they worked in districts that do not mandate masking.

Schools have classrooms with too high of densities, and too poor of ventilation to mitigate spread.

Right now, spread is too high in most areas to responsibly remove mask mandates in these settings.

Unless, they want to allow Workman's comp, and the possibility of suing employers for damages due to getting COVID on the job, it isn't fair to high-risk workers to have to be exposed to unmasked individuals. If people are ok with employer liability lawsuits, then fine remove mask mandates.

But if you open up employers/venues to liability, guess what...they will institute mask mandates, because it is less burdensome.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

The current Dane County mask mandate (which is what I was originally referring to) was set to expire 11/27. 

Also, if they would say 1/3/22 is the line in the sand where we can drop the mandate and stick to it, I'd have no problem.

I have a problem with Dane Co arbitrarily pushing the expiration date back without a clear goal.

These are your kinda politicians, hey? 

[Hards Alumni]

These are your kinda politicians, hey?

I don't vote for Madison politicians. 

Also, it's far better than the alternative in general.

[pacearrow02]

Define "end this". What about in high risk environments (e.g. schools), where parents send, or kids go to class despite exhibiting cold/flu symptoms often.

Vaccines work and will help mitigate death, but what about missing 2-weeks of work (which means a 2nd illness of any type results in going unpaid), and possibly dealing with long-term lung issues, mental health issues, or a number of other long-COVID symptoms that still can occur in the vaccinated.

I know teachers that were hospitalized for weeks, despite being vaccinated, because they worked in districts that do not mandate masking.

Schools have classrooms with too high of densities, and too poor of ventilation to mitigate spread.

Right now, spread is too high in most areas to responsibly remove mask mandates in these settings.

Unless, they want to allow Workman's comp, and the possibility of suing employers for damages due to getting COVID on the job, it isn't fair to high-risk workers to have to be exposed to unmasked individuals. If people are ok with employer liability lawsuits, then fine remove mask mandates.

But if you open up employers/venues to liability, guess what...they will institute mask mandates, because it is less burdensome.

What about manslaughter charges though if mandates are removed or not put back in place?  That seems reasonable, right forgetful!! 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Define "end this". What about in high risk environments (e.g. schools), where parents send, or kids go to class despite exhibiting cold/flu symptoms often.

Vaccines work and will help mitigate death, but what about missing 2-weeks of work (which means a 2nd illness of any type results in going unpaid), and possibly dealing with long-term lung issues, mental health issues, or a number of other long-COVID symptoms that still can occur in the vaccinated.

I know teachers that were hospitalized for weeks, despite being vaccinated, because they worked in districts that do not mandate masking.

Schools have classrooms with too high of densities, and too poor of ventilation to mitigate spread.

Right now, spread is too high in most areas to responsibly remove mask mandates in these settings.

Unless, they want to allow Workman's comp, and the possibility of suing employers for damages due to getting COVID on the job, it isn't fair to high-risk workers to have to be exposed to unmasked individuals. If people are ok with employer liability lawsuits, then fine remove mask mandates.

But if you open up employers/venues to liability, guess what...they will institute mask mandates, because it is less burdensome.

So your suggestion is what exactly?

[pacearrow02]

https://mobile.twitter.com/anish_koka/status/1463562466961633284

🤷‍♂️

[Skatastrophy]

https://mobile.twitter.com/anish_koka/status/1463562466961633284

🤷‍♂️

You can't find reliable sources to save your life.

[forgetful]

So your suggestion is what exactly?

1. Vaccine mandates in schools.

2. Employer liability/Workman's comp for long lasting COVID issues if contracted at work, with low proof threshold for work acquired illnesses.

3. Then let employer's decide what they want to do regarding masks at their workplace/school/store.

For schools, if you ensure #1 is done, then you can escape legal culpability in regards to item #3 as you did your due diligence to protect your employees.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

BTW, forgetful I am not for lifting mask mandates everywhere.  Schools, health care, certain workplaces, etc. are all fine.  I have issues with the continuous nature of the health department mandates at places like restaurants, events, etc. where IMO it should be left to the people who run those venues.  With no clear criteria for when it should end.

[forgetful]

BTW, forgetful I am not for lifting mask mandates everywhere.  Schools, health care, certain workplaces, etc. are all fine.  I have issues with the continuous nature of the health department mandates at places like restaurants, events, etc. where IMO it should be left to the people who run those venues.  With no clear criteria for when it should end.

I think we are actually largely in agreement. I've personally been ok with these private venues making their own choices, and patrons being able to assume their own risk as they choose.

The only caveat I would have is potential exploitation of the workers, like we saw at meat processing plants early in the pandemic. There should be some legal culpability for putting workers in danger, when there are simple and obvious controls that could be executed.

[dgies9156]

OK gang, I'll take this the other way. I'm in favor of lifting mask mandates and the sooner the better.

If you want to wear a mask, go right ahead. I have no problem with it. But the challenge is, when do we stop changing our lives for Covid? I'm of the view that Covid in various forms and mutations is always going to be with us. The only defense we have is vaccination. In my case, I've had two shots of Modera plus the booster. Yes, vaccinated people get Covid, but if they do they are ill for a few days and then are fine.

If you aren't vaccinated, please be vaccinated. There's no excuse not to be. It's free, available everywhere and chances are, if you can't come to a clinic, the clinic will come to you!

All that said, I'd like to see the following done:

1) Set a "vaccinate by" sometime in the first quarter of 2022.

2) After that, take all the mask mandates off. Take any other Covid related restrictions off.

3) Then, either permit health insurers to either not cover Covid for those who are not vaccinated or jack premiums sky high and;

4) Require proof of a Covid vaccination to board an airplane, train, bus, go to certain public places etc.

It's just time to get back to normal -- to go to the office, arenas, entertainment etc. We've done everything we can do for Covid and now it's time to either jump in and be vaccinated or face the consequences.

[tower912]

There is no return to the former definition of 'normal' any time soon.

[4everwarriors]

OK gang, I'll take this the other way. I'm in favor of lifting mask mandates and the sooner the better.

If you want to wear a mask, go right ahead. I have no problem with it. But the challenge is, when do we stop changing our lives for Covid? I'm of the view that Covid in various forms and mutations is always going to be with us. The only defense we have is vaccination. In my case, I've had two shots of Modera plus the booster. Yes, vaccinated people get Covid, but if they do they are ill for a few days and then are fine.

If you aren't vaccinated, please be vaccinated. There's no excuse not to be. It's free, available everywhere and chances are, if you can't come to a clinic, the clinic will come to you!

All that said, I'd like to see the following done:

1) Set a "vaccinate by" sometime in the first quarter of 2022.

2) After that, take all the mask mandates off. Take any other Covid related restrictions off.

3) Then, either permit health insurers to either not cover Covid for those who are not vaccinated or jack premiums sky high and;

4) Require proof of a Covid vaccination to board an airplane, train, bus, go to certain public places etc.

It's just time to get back to normal -- to go to the office, arenas, entertainment etc. We've done everything we can do for Covid and now it's time to either jump in and be vaccinated or face the consequences.

Fear and control. Never going to happen because FD Joe or whomever is making decisions in this country, will not let it happen. Also, too much money at stake. Again, fear and control in its purest form, hey?