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Author Topic: Jamal Cain 👍🏼  (Read 6684 times)

Elonsmusk

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2020, 09:56:46 PM »
The point is you are misunderstanding his role. His role is to be a forward off the bench. He's the 7th or 8th guy on any given night. When he comes in and is making a clear difference, those minutes will go up. Like last night. When he comes in and isn't defending well, turning it over, or simply not playing as well as the starter, those minutes will go down. That's the nature of being a bench player. Not everyone can be a starter. Bailey starts because he is a better defender and one of the most offensively efficient players in the Big East.

This isn't a Wojo thing, it's a basketball thing. Consider other teams & minute allocations for some Big East bench players the last 6 games:

Shavar Reynolds, Seton Hall: 14/17/9/20/24/26
Cole Swider, Villanova: 20/31/25/11/5/26
Henry Baddley, Butler: 31/31/19/8/7/24

How about other top coaches:

Jack White, Duke: 18/23/14/9/12/3
Darius Perry, Louisville: 26/23/5/15/19/15
Kyle Ahrens, Michigan State: DNP/8/15/5/19/16

Everyone there is wavering between single digits and upper-teens to twenties. It changes every night depending on how well they are playing, how well the other guys on the team are playing, and what the coaches see in the game. That's just how basketball works. If you aren't a Markus Howard, Sacar Anim type that has earned max minutes every night, you aren't guaranteed a consistent role because the game is never the same. So unless you think that Kevin Willard, Jay Wright, LaVall Jordan, Mike Krzyzewski, Chris Mack, and Tom Izzo are equally inconsistent to Wojo, I'm really not sure what you're trying to assert.

Fair post Brew. I respect what you’ve written here.

Ultimately I’m not of the belief that Bailey is a clear cut better player. Bailey has been given the starting role as you point out, and along with it a much longer leash.

IMO Jamal’s talent and ability ultimately aren’t being maximized. 

No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

manesworld

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2020, 10:00:15 PM »
When all else fails, talk about dunking on people in high school and bring up Derrick Wilson.  And ignore that two separate head coaches made the exact same decisions.

Sad.

BallBoy

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2020, 10:03:19 PM »
I don’t know about Ners, but if you look back at my minimal posts from these past 2 years, they’re about Cain.  I’m not trying to insult Wojo or his staff, but rather voicing an opinion.  They’re prone to mistakes like all of us are....I.e.  not yanking a certain star player on our team during an OT this year where said player just didn’t have it but kept shooting regardless.  To imply that Coaches and their staff know what’s best all the time means no coach’s job is in jeopardy.   

I’m just saying I think we’d be better off with Cain getting more minutes.  Damn it!  This is why I don’t post.  Even back to the ring out shots days.  I got sucked in!  I’ll go back to just reading. 

Btw, to those that say some people only show up after losses to trash talk, you are simply wrong....or so I hope.  I love reading the comments much more after a win than after a loss.  Perhaps the people that post negative things are venting frustration because they ARE fans and want to see Marquette BB succeed.  I think from what I saw yesterday (only saw 1st half) it was just a bad shooting day for us and Villanova couldn’t miss.    That’s it.  Let’s move on and get Cain more minutes please.  I think it would benefit OUR team.  Peace!

I wasn’t referencing you on the insulted part. I think everyone can voice their opinions on a topic.

I would love for every player to get 40 minutes a game but it can’t happen. Coaches make tough decisions on who is going to play or not.

The deciding criteria is matchups. When people talk about game planning the look at a perceived opponent weakness and plan how to exploit it. Those players who can do that will get extended run.  Those that can’t or open up a weakness get a shorter leash.

For example, I would not play Cain against a hard pressing defensive team as much because his high stance with the dribble exposes him to steals and turnovers.

I would play him against less athletic less defensive pressure teams and give him and opportunity to stretch the defense.

If he could put it all together he would be great. He just hasn’t yet.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 10:15:10 PM by BallBoy »

Elonsmusk

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2020, 10:05:03 PM »
You already tried to use that one two years ago so I will remind you I won two league A intramural basketball championships, third year finalist, and an intramural league League A championship in soccer at MU with a year abroad so I have played at the “highest levels of basketball.” Threw in a Gus Macker title. If it wasn’t for Wojo in his short shorts and floor slapping defense during his playing days at Duke turning off NBA scouts I would be finishing up a 20+Year all nba career right now. Damn you Wojo.

So not one assistant said to Buzz why are you playing Wilson 30.8 minutes a game with magic Dawson on the bench?  So now Buzz hired a bunch of idiots too?

Ners sees two of Marquette benches’ scouting/coaching abilities as less than what he only can see on tv. If you have a second Gus macker title, I will concede to your basketball acumen is better than mine and Wojo’s.

Intramural titles?  Seriously?  Soccer titles?  Almost as awesome as volleyball titles. Gus Macker wins?!  Impressive pedigree no doubt. 

Buzz didn’t give a crap his last year at MU. Further, Buzz didn’t have Duane Wilson or Matt Carlino as options.

Dawson as a freshman may have been a turnover machine, but he was a better option than Derrick. And he’s made NBA G-League roster three years on a row. He had some talent/ability.  The “results” with Derrick running PG 30 minutes per game speak for themselves.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Elonsmusk

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2020, 10:11:30 PM »
When all else fails, talk about dunking on people in high school and bring up Derrick Wilson.  And ignore that two separate head coaches made the exact same decisions.

Sad.

Where did I reference dunking on people here?  Try to contribute to the talking points. Bring some stats, data, something, anything, beyond your sad, tired, “joke” about me dunking on people in high school for about the 150th time.

Be gowne, Patrick.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Elonsmusk

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #105 on: February 13, 2020, 10:13:09 PM »
I wasn’t referencing you on the insulted part. I think everyone can voice their opinions on a topic.

I would love for every player to get 40 minutes a game but it can’t happen. Coaches make tough decisions on who is going to play or not.

The deciding criteria is matchups. When people talk about game planning the look at a perceived opponent weakness and plan how to exploit it. Those players who can do that will get extended run.  This that can’t or open up a weakness get a shorter leash.

For example, I would not play Cain against a hard pressing defensive team as much because his high stance with the dribble exposes him to steals and turnovers.

I would play him against less athletic less defensive pressure teams and give him and opportunity to stretch the defense.

If he could put it all together he would be great. He just hasn’t yet.

Thanks for this. Excellent analysis.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

MU82

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #106 on: February 13, 2020, 10:22:41 PM »
The point is you are misunderstanding his role. His role is to be a forward off the bench. He's the 7th or 8th guy on any given night. When he comes in and is making a clear difference, those minutes will go up. Like last night. When he comes in and isn't defending well, turning it over, or simply not playing as well as the starter, those minutes will go down. That's the nature of being a bench player. Not everyone can be a starter. Bailey starts because he is a better defender and one of the most offensively efficient players in the Big East.

This isn't a Wojo thing, it's a basketball thing. Consider other teams & minute allocations for some Big East bench players the last 6 games:

Shavar Reynolds, Seton Hall: 14/17/9/20/24/26
Cole Swider, Villanova: 20/31/25/11/5/26
Henry Baddley, Butler: 31/31/19/8/7/24

How about other top coaches:

Jack White, Duke: 18/23/14/9/12/3
Darius Perry, Louisville: 26/23/5/15/19/15
Kyle Ahrens, Michigan State: DNP/8/15/5/19/16

Everyone there is wavering between single digits and upper-teens to twenties. It changes every night depending on how well they are playing, how well the other guys on the team are playing, and what the coaches see in the game. That's just how basketball works. If you aren't a Markus Howard, Sacar Anim type that has earned max minutes every night, you aren't guaranteed a consistent role because the game is never the same. So unless you think that Kevin Willard, Jay Wright, LaVall Jordan, Mike Krzyzewski, Chris Mack, and Tom Izzo are equally inconsistent to Wojo, I'm really not sure what you're trying to assert.

Best post in this entire thread. Thanks, brewski.

Almost good enough to get Nrs to stand down. Almost.

If only our coach knew as much about basketball, and the players he sees for multiple hours every day, as some anonymous interwebs dude does.
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Cheeks

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manesworld

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #108 on: February 13, 2020, 10:40:57 PM »
Bailey

http://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2020&p=Brendan%20Bailey&t=Marquette

Cain

http://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2020&p=Jamal%20Cain&t=Marquette

Just a numbers nerd who never played the game.

If only we had a coach who had played the game, then he could understand how to effectively coach guys. But since Wojo never played high school ball and that’s reserved for only the best of the best out there he has no idea what allows players to succeed.

The answer is MAX MINUTES.

BallBoy

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #109 on: February 13, 2020, 10:41:43 PM »
Thanks for this. Excellent analysis.

Thanks.

Just to add.  final four teams create matchup problems that others have to plan against. That is why people think seton hall is a final four contender.

7’2 center with defensive shutdown capabilities
Potential POY candidate who can light it up from anywhere
A point guard who is a defensive player and solid offensive contributor as second scoring option
Good group of role players
Multiple matchup problems.

Markus is our matchup problem. If we weren’t as good of three point shooters I would almost go to a box and one to defend against us.  With Bailey, Anim and Koby all being decent+ three point shooters that opens up a lot of open shoots.  My best on ball defender gets him. If I am Seton Hall that is McKnight. Powell might get him on the occasional switch. I play high and tight to the three point line.  If he blows by me have him worry about getting the ball over Gill.

Theo - not a matchup problem
Anim - containable problem. Have Powell guard him or Koby. Let them wear themselves out chasing Powell on the other end.
Bailey - all around versatility but containable. Rhoden or Cale. In the last matchup, he was 0pher so problem approach him the same way
Koby - containable but could get hot.

Probably not the focus of the game plan but if these guys go off it just might not be your day.

Elliot
Jayce
Cain - got 9 minutes and contributed 1 personal foul. Seton hall is a solid defensive team so problem not his strength right now.





IL Warrior

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2020, 07:19:20 AM »
Just a numbers nerd who never played the game.

If only we had a coach who had played the game, then he could understand how to effectively coach guys. But since Wojo never played high school ball and that’s reserved for only the best of the best out there he has no idea what allows players to succeed.

The answer is MAX MINUTES.
But I don't think Wojo can dunk...

GOO

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2020, 07:57:02 AM »
Thanks.

Just to add.  final four teams create matchup problems that others have to plan against. That is why people think seton hall is a final four contender.

7’2 center with defensive shutdown capabilities
Potential POY candidate who can light it up from anywhere
A point guard who is a defensive player and solid offensive contributor as second scoring option
Good group of role players
Multiple matchup problems.

Markus is our matchup problem. If we weren’t as good of three point shooters I would almost go to a box and one to defend against us.  With Bailey, Anim and Koby all being decent+ three point shooters that opens up a lot of open shoots.  My best on ball defender gets him. If I am Seton Hall that is McKnight. Powell might get him on the occasional switch. I play high and tight to the three point line.  If he blows by me have him worry about getting the ball over Gill.

Theo - not a matchup problem
Anim - containable problem. Have Powell guard him or Koby. Let them wear themselves out chasing Powell on the other end.
Bailey - all around versatility but containable. Rhoden or Cale. In the last matchup, he was 0pher so problem approach him the same way
Koby - containable but could get hot.

Probably not the focus of the game plan but if these guys go off it just might not be your day.

Elliot
Jayce
Cain - got 9 minutes and contributed 1 personal foul. Seton hall is a solid defensive team so problem not his strength right now.
I am not agreeing or disagreeing, I don't know.  I would point out that there have been plenty of very good teams that had quality players at most or all positions that made them as a whole hard to contain.  Have to guard everyone. 

We are at the point where pretty much any player on the floor for us can score, unlike many teams we've had over the years where we had at least one player on the floor all the time that was not a threat to score or could not defend. This team everyone can defend (with some limits) and score (with some limits - mostly big men away from the hoop - not a threat on a pick and pop or pick and roll). 

MU82

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2020, 08:11:29 AM »
Fair post Brew. I respect what you’ve written here.

Ultimately I’m not of the belief that Bailey is a clear cut better player. Bailey has been given the starting role as you point out, and along with it a much longer leash.

IMO Jamal’s talent and ability ultimately aren’t being maximized.

I appreciate you finally acknowledging that the facts (as presented by brewski) go against your "belief." It's a big step on your part.

The key words in this post of yours are "Bailey has been given the starting role as you point out."

1. Why do you conclude that Bailey was given anything? Is it impossible for you to fathom that Bailey actually earned the starting role? Were you at all of the offseason workouts and conditioning sessions? Did you analyze all of the action on the summer trip to Europe? Were you at every practice and workout from Marquette Madness to the start of the season? Have you been at every practice and workout since the season started? Have you analyzed every frame of video from games this season? I bet Wojo and his assistants have done all of the above and maybe, just maybe, Wojo made an educated decision to start Bailey and to keep starting him, all the while willingly giving Cain plenty of minutes when Bailey is struggling and/or when Cain is playing well and/or both. Or, we could just say to heck with all that and go with the "belief" of an anonymous interwebs dude that Cain, and not Bailey, somehow earned the starting nod.

2. Brew did not "point out" that "Bailey has been given" anything. He said, "Bailey starts because he is a better defender and one of the most offensively efficient players in the Big East." In other words, Bailey earned the starting job.

And this just in: All coaches at all levels in all sports give "longer leashes" to those they believe have earned those longer leashes over time. Do you really think that if Cain had proven himself as the better option, Wojo would be giving Bailey more playing time (and a longer leash) just because? Because what? He likes Thurl Bailey? He likes Pearl Bailey? He likes Beetle Bailey?

Is it your theory that Wojo is willingly sacrificing potential wins because he "likes" one player and "dislikes" another? Indeed, if that's your theory, Wojo just crushed it in our most recent game, as he benched Bailey for a long stretch and went with Cain, who was playing better. Imagine that!

Four years ago, Wojo benched Fischer for Heldt. Last season, he benched Heldt for Theo and Morrow; despite Heldt obviously being one of Wojo's all-time favorites, Heldt just about never played. And this season, he benched Morrow for Johnson. And now he's what? Afraid to give some of an obviously inferior Bailey's playing time to an obviously superior Cain? Really?

Again, I appreciate that you came right out and admitted that all of this is your opinion (because the facts aren't working for you).

In the opinion of most others, Wojo knows more about his team than you do.
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manesworld

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2020, 08:13:09 AM »
How in the world could Jay Wright possibly be so dumb as to not understand he needs to be more consistent with his minute distribution for Brandon Slater?  16 minutes 1 game, 4 minutes the next, 1 minute the next, 14 minutes next.  Totally screwing with Slater's mind.  Jay doesn't understand he makes it impossible for Slater to find a rhythm.

Is Coach K just intentionally screwing with Javin DeLaurier?  14 minutes one game, 9 the next, 14 the next, 4 the next.  WTF?  Talk about an impossible situation for a kid.

Why in the world would Sam Hauser ever want to play for a coach who has no clue that giving inconsistent minutes to a kid screws with their mind and doesn't allow them to perform like Tony Bennett is doing with Francisco Caffaro?  7 minutes one night, 21 the next, 14 the next, 9 the next, 4 the next.  You kidding me?!

Avery Benson played a huge roll in helping Chris Beard take down (at the time) #1 Louisville with 10 points in 22 minutes.  His next 3 games 14 minutes, 3 minutes, 4 minutes.  WTF?!  He'd be Dirk if Beard had a clue how to distribute minutes and knew how much he was messing with his mind!

Would Johnny Juzang be the top pick in the NBA Draft if Cal wasn't so dumb to fluctuate his minutes?  I mean, 8, 15, 15, 5, 24, 10 in the last 6 games for him.  No wonder he isn't being looked at as the next Derrick Rose!

(Should I go on?)

Seriously, this argument is so, so, so stupid.  The nature of being a backup is your minutes fluctuate.  Some nights you might not see the court at all because the 2 guys you might replace don't get in foul trouble and play well.  Other nights you might bet 30 minutes because every time the guy you replace checks in he picks up another foul.  Literally every coach for all of eternity has multiple players who get inconsistent minutes from one night to the next.  Not one coach in the history of basketball has the same "leash" for every player on the roster.  A turnover by Markus won't, and shouldn't be, treated the same as a turnover by Jamal.  You're lying if you claim there's that gives every kid the same amount of minutes every game and treats every mistake the exact same between his players.  Anybody who has played the game knows this.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 08:18:27 AM by manesworld »

tower912

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #114 on: February 14, 2020, 08:39:35 AM »
For me, it comes down to this.    I like Cain.   I like Bailey.    I like all of the players who choose to stay.     I think Bailey has shown himself to be more of a complete player than Cain.    I accept that there are days when Cain is going to play better than Bailey.   I also trust that on those days, Wojo is going to ride Cain.   I celebrate and appreciate that Cain played a very nice second half against Nova when 4 of the starting 5 were benched for poor play.    I hope he continues to play like that.    It would help the team.   

Starting a crusade about it reeks of back-up QB syndrome.   A common malady among fans in all sports.    The back up must be better.      Our coach is the dumbest coach ever in whatever sport we happen to be talking about.     If only our coach managed his 9 man roster the way I want him to, the team would be better than 17-7, 7-5, because.....blahbity blahbity blahbity.

But, hey, it is a message board and we have time to kill, so why not.    Thank you, ners, for starting this thread.   

It reminds me that a year ago I was arguing that Joey had hit the freshman wall and Wojo needed to play Bailey and Cain more.    With the rationale that we had to try to keep the Hausers fresh down the stretch.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 09:02:24 AM by tower912 »
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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Mr. Sand-Knit

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #115 on: February 14, 2020, 09:12:51 AM »
When bailey plays poorly, which unfortunately is too often, jamal is a ready and willing backup that sometimes  plays well, simetimes he doesnt.
When bailey plays well/aggressively he is really good.
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MU82

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2020, 09:13:26 AM »
Starting a crusade about it reeks of back-up QB syndrome. A common malady among fans in all sports. The back up must be better.

Yep.

Believe it or not, there were many Panthers fans who actually thought Derek Anderson was better than Cam Newton.

Facts be damned.
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Cheeks

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #117 on: February 14, 2020, 09:21:14 AM »
Yep.

Believe it or not, there were many Panthers fans who actually thought Derek Anderson was better than Cam Newton.

Facts be damned.

He was better than an INJURED Newton....and the facts bare that out.  Better QB rating than Injured Newton, actually won games when Newton was not able to propel team to any while injured.  Facts hurt.
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #118 on: February 14, 2020, 09:27:41 AM »
When bailey plays poorly, which unfortunately is too often, jamal is a ready and willing backup that sometimes  plays well, simetimes he doesnt.
When bailey plays well/aggressively he is really good.


This is how I feel.  On balance, I think Bailey is better, but that doesn't mean he is better every game.

I just think people need to trust the coach with this and not dredge up player decisions from six years ago.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #119 on: February 14, 2020, 09:28:40 AM »

This is how I feel.  On balance, I think Bailey is better, but that doesn't mean he is better every game.

I just think people need to trust the coach with this and not dredge up player decisions from six years ago.
Yep.

Believe it or not, there were many Panthers fans who actually thought Derek Anderson was better than Cam Newton.

Facts be damned.

You’d have to really tilt at windmills to think Derek Anderson or Josh Allen is better than Cam Newton.  Can’t believe there is anyone out there stupid enough to make that argument but I’m always surprised
Cooler.  20 Days.

tower912

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #120 on: February 14, 2020, 09:33:52 AM »

This is how I feel.  On balance, I think Bailey is better, but that doesn't mean he is better every game.

I just think people need to trust the coach with this and not dredge up player decisions from six years ago.

Here is the thing.   Ners, for whatever reason, was so emotionally invested in JaJuan, Deonte, and Dawson, that how they were handled by Buzz and then Wojo completely infused his opinion of Buzz's last year and then Wojo.    His mind was made up about Wojo in December of 2014 when two of the three left.    It still galls him and it still infuses his perception of every decision Wojo makes.
    Nobody here is going to change his mind.   No argument exists.    With time, if Wojo proves successful, maybe ners will evolve, but he will always believe that Wojo messed up with three players that Ners was fond of.      And any thing that is less successful will only reinforce that perception.     Can't be changed.     Accept, work around. 
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

GOO

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #121 on: February 14, 2020, 10:38:23 AM »
Having Dawson brought up in this thread out of the blue, pretty much told me who Ners is posting as now.  I normally don't follow who is who on name changes or pick up on it.  But, anyone who brings up Dawson first, that he is in the G-League as proof of how good he was... out of the blue, well....

Cheeks

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #122 on: February 14, 2020, 11:10:18 AM »

This is how I feel.  On balance, I think Bailey is better, but that doesn't mean he is better every game.

I just think people need to trust the coach with this and not dredge up player decisions from six years ago.

+ tax
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

MU82

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2020, 12:16:52 PM »
You’d have to really tilt at windmills to think Derek Anderson ... is better than Cam Newton.  Can’t believe there is anyone out there stupid enough to make that argument but I’m always surprised

Yep, and the Derek Anderson fans were touting him over Cam when Cam was healthy and a Pro Bowl regular. I'm talking 5 and 6 and 7 years ago.
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jesmu84

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Re: Jamal Cain 👍🏼
« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2020, 05:39:05 PM »
He was better than an INJURED Newton....and the facts bare that out.  Better QB rating than Injured Newton, actually won games when Newton was not able to propel team to any while injured.  Facts hurt.

So, I think you jumped at this without reading.

MU82 said "Derek anderson" and also talked about "Panthers fans".

Your argument earlier this season was about Allen and you aren't a Panthers fan, afaik

 

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