Jamal Cain 👍🏼

[bilsu]

I really like both Cain and Bailey. However, before the Jacksonville game I was wondering if the wrong player was starting. Then Cain and Bailey both started (Markus was out) against Jacksonville. Seeing them both on the floor together for extended period of time clearly showed to me that Bailey was the better player.

[Shooter McGavin]

Cain is a fun watch because he is so athletic.  He really skies to grab rebounds.  His faith in his athleticism can be a problem from time to time, like that ill-fated dunk attempt from so far away last night.  That was a big miss at an important time.  He played very well last night and ignited our comeback.

When watching us, there a couple things that usually make me feel like something bad is going to happen.  One is on entry passes to Theo when there is a man between him and the basket, another is when Cain puts the ball on the deck.  The third is those few times a game when Markus has the ball and is well covered and you just know he has decided that he is shooting this time come hell or high water.  Koby does that once or twice a game, too.

Your second paragraph sums up my real time concerns while watching a game as well.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Bailey is better
Jamal has got more dog in him
Bailey disappears too much, doesnt get fouled etc.  to start the game last night Bailey had two dunks, in both plays he pulled up and faded away, missed both, air balled one. Jamal went for the dunk (whole other story smh)
One of the biggest games of the year Bailey never got off the plane.  His stat line says it all.

[FrennA]

Tamu compared Bailey to Cain and mentioned something along the lines that while Cain beats Bailey in most stats, gets “destroyed” when it comes to TO% (sorry if I inaccurately summarizes it but I believe I got it somewhat right).  I don’t think the “Destroyed” part is true.  I think many have become conditioned to think that do to posts as opposed to actual stats.  I looked at this last year and didn’t see it as more outstanding than any other player on a per minute played basis.  But then again I didn’t actually punch the numbers.  Does anyone have the TO% of our entire team because I’d love to see that.  While I mentioned that Cain does turn it over more than I’d like to see, I think it’s blown out of proportion and then people that hear/read it tend to latch on to it as truth.  Maybe Cain does lead the team in TO% but I’d like to see those numbers for this year and last.  Then if I’m right, I’d like to know how come everyone dogs Cain instead of the real offenders.   It’s understandable if the ones who lead in TO% handle the ball a greater % of the time, so I understand that point.    But if someone’s got those numbers, I’d appreciate seeing them. 

[Cheeks]

I dunked a basketball

I dunked a donut

[Uncle Rico]

Tamu compared Bailey to Cain and mentioned something along the lines that while Cain beats Bailey in most stats, gets “destroyed” when it comes to TO% (sorry if I inaccurately summarizes it but I believe I got it somewhat right).  I don’t think the “Destroyed” part is true.  I think many have become conditioned to think that do to posts as opposed to actual stats.  I looked at this last year and didn’t see it as more outstanding than any other player on a per minute played basis.  But then again I didn’t actually punch the numbers.  Does anyone have the TO% of our entire team because I’d love to see that.  While I mentioned that Cain does turn it over more than I’d like to see, I think it’s blown out of proportion and then people that hear/read it tend to latch on to it as truth.  Maybe Cain does lead the team in TO% but I’d like to see those numbers for this year and last.  Then if I’m right, I’d like to know how come everyone dogs Cain instead of the real offenders.   It’s understandable if the ones who lead in TO% handle the ball a greater % of the time, so I understand that point.    But if someone’s got those numbers, I’d appreciate seeing them.

Team turnover % is 18.3%, Jamal is at 20.5%.  Bailey is at 11.8%.  Greg and Koby are worse.

His turnover rate was 32% last year, so he has gotten much better.

The issue here is Ners is looking for something that isn’t there.  It’s trolling

[FrennA]

Ok, I looked it up for this year:

Bailey turns it over once every 32.9 mins
Cain turns it over once every 19.95 mins
Sacar every 19.1 mins
Elliott every 16.7

Conclusion is Bailey destroys not only Cain but also Elliott and Sacar in TO%.  Cain is about even with Sacar  and both of them are better than Elliot.  What bothers me is that people just repeat what they read as truth.  I don’t hear much about TO’s when talking about Sacar or Elliott but it’s the main talking point about Cain and it’s not justified considering the other two guys.  Play Cain more please........I’ve been saying it since last year......In all fairness, I believe Cain improved in this TO stat from last year. 

[FrennA]

Sorry, I posted without seeing yours, Rico.  Thanks for the info. 

[Ardmore Mug]

I DUNK my Oreo's ! ! !   

[Cheeks]

Ok, I looked it up for this year:

Bailey turns it over once every 32.9 mins
Cain turns it over once every 19.95 mins
Sacar every 19.1 mins
Elliott every 16.7

Conclusion is Bailey destroys not only Cain but also Elliott and Sacar in TO%.  Cain is about even with Sacar  and both of them are better than Elliot.  What bothers me is that people just repeat what they read as truth.  I don’t hear much about TO’s when talking about Sacar or Elliott but it’s the main talking point about Cain and it’s not justified considering the other two guys.  Play Cain more please........I’ve been saying it since last year......In all fairness, I believe Cain improved in this TO stat from last year.

Some of Sacar’s turnovers drive me crazy....same with Greg’s.   Jamal (and I really like him)...his turnovers seem less forced to me which means they are unforced.  Bad entry passes from top  of key, while Sacar is doing it on a drive. 

Better said, not all turnovers are equal.

[Marcus92]

Marquette's team turnover rate so far this season is 18.3% per KenPom, 120th in the country. Player TO% through the first 24 games:

11.8% Brendan Bailey
14.4% Markus Howard
14.4% Sacar Anim
18.3% Theo John
20.5% Jamal Cain
23.1% Koby McEwen
23.3% Greg Elliott
23.6% Jayce Johnson
27.4% Symir Torrence

MU's TORate in Big East play is 16.6%. Player percentages through the first 12 conference games:

9.7% Sacar Anim
12.1% Brendan Bailey
12.4% Markus Howard
19.8% Greg Elliott
21.3% Koby McEwen
22.5% Theo John
24.0% Jamal Cain
25.9% Jayce Johnson
30.9% Symir Torrence

[Marcus92]

MU's turnover rate last season was 19.3%, ranked 239th nationally per KenPom. So looks like real improvement this year.

[Class71]

Would like to see Cain getting a few more opportunities. Agreed he needs to be more careful with the  ball but think this will iron out when he builds confidence based on positive results.

[Marcus92]

If you wonder how much Wojo values taking care of the ball, the player with the lowest turnover rate in Big East play (Sacar) also happens to be playing more minutes than anyone else on the team.

And the four players with the highest turnover rates (Symir, Jayce, Jamal and Theo) have played the least amount of minutes.

Obviously, a lot of different factors go into who gets court time. But it seems clear that turnovers are a pretty important factor.

[Elonsmusk]

But this is what Ners does.  He uses yo-yo minutes as a reason for poor production.  But in reality it's the opposite.  They get yo-yo minutes because they don't consistently produce.

He used to have the same complaint about Traci Carter.  Who has since transferred twice - first to LaSalle in the A10 and then to Hartford in the American East, where he still can't really shoot.

For Cain to get 20+ minutes he has to be REALLY, really good.  Meanwhile, Brendan (and others (have many games of 20+ minutes where they lay clunkers.  Cain has 1 game of 30+ minutes all season (145 O-Rating).  Here are O-Ratings from Brendan's 30+/minute clunkers:  78, 85, 42, 86.

Cain's O-Rating 20+ minutes/game descending from last night's game to beginning of season:

138
210
149
124
138
156
145
117
147
66
109

As for Traci Carter - He was manna from heaven after having had to watch Derrick Wilson play PG 33 minutes per game two years in a row.  While Traci wasn't a great shooter, he made 2x Derrick's career 3 point makes in just his freshman season.  Plus he was a great defender and had a 32.9% assist rate, well above any PG we've had at MU in a long time.

Lastly, the only player on this team who "consistently produces" is Markus.  Koby is all over the place and it doesn't affect his minutes.  Same with Sacar.  Same with Brendan.

[BallBoy]

I’m with Elon on this one.  While I don’t post much at all, the few times I’ve posted these last two years we’re about the mishandling of Cain......I went to bed for the second half of last nights game so I didn’t see it.  I think He’s a great player who would be playing even better had his confidence not been rocked last year.  I think people see that Wojo would yank him after a TO (I admit some were boneheaded and careless) and agree with Wojos decision.  That still amazes me.  Tell me that Cain is the only one on this team guilty of it and you’re fooling yourself.  The difference is Cain gets yanked.  It’s my personal opinion that Wojo has his favorites and those favorites have a longer leash (see Joey and Bailey as examples).  I’ll tell you that I personally want Cain in at the end of a tight game especially for his rebounding ability - something that gets easily overlooked.

I think people misinterpret the TO as the reason he got yanked.  In reality, he was in there to buy a few extra minutes before an under -16 -12 -8 -4 timeout.  It is a way to buy your starters a few extra minutes of breather without burning too much of the game clock.  The turnover lead to the dead ball which lead to the timeout which brought the starter back in.

At the end of the day, any coach is going to put out the team that he/she feels is going to win the game.  We might like certain players more than others but doesn't mean they are better players. 

What I finding insulting is this isn't just a knock on Wojo but every member of the Marquette bench.  Most assistants are the ones getting the players ready to sub in and are providing data to the head coach on what is going on.  Wojo or any head coach can't do everything by himself.  So what Ners is really saying his rec league scouting ability trumps the experience of Marquette's entire coaching staff.  Or Wojo is just mean spirited but then Buzz would have had to been as well. 

[IrwinFletcher]

Bailey

http://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2020&p=Brendan%20Bailey&t=Marquette

Cain

http://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2020&p=Jamal%20Cain&t=Marquette

[wadesworld]

Same chit different username.

Does Ners find a different role player (in Cain's case...or not even role player in the case of a guy like Dawson or Carter) to latch onto with each different username he comes back with after each perma-ban?

[tower912]

Ners has his windmills to tilt at.  Nothing wrong with that.   We all enjoy seeing a player step up.   As long as it doesn't become obsessive or abusive, I enjoy his perspective. 
 

[FrennA]

I don’t know about Ners, but if you look back at my minimal posts from these past 2 years, they’re about Cain.  I’m not trying to insult Wojo or his staff, but rather voicing an opinion.  They’re prone to mistakes like all of us are....I.e.  not yanking a certain star player on our team during an OT this year where said player just didn’t have it but kept shooting regardless.  To imply that Coaches and their staff know what’s best all the time means no coach’s job is in jeopardy.   

I’m just saying I think we’d be better off with Cain getting more minutes.  Damn it!  This is why I don’t post.  Even back to the ring out shots days.  I got sucked in!  I’ll go back to just reading. 

Btw, to those that say some people only show up after losses to trash talk, you are simply wrong....or so I hope.  I love reading the comments much more after a win than after a loss.  Perhaps the people that post negative things are venting frustration because they ARE fans and want to see Marquette BB succeed.  I think from what I saw yesterday (only saw 1st half) it was just a bad shooting day for us and Villanova couldn’t miss.    That’s it.  Let’s move on and get Cain more minutes please.  I think it would benefit OUR team.  Peace! 

[Elonsmusk]

I think people misinterpret the TO as the reason he got yanked.  In reality, he was in there to buy a few extra minutes before an under -16 -12 -8 -4 timeout.  It is a way to buy your starters a few extra minutes of breather without burning too much of the game clock.  The turnover lead to the dead ball which lead to the timeout which brought the starter back in.

At the end of the day, any coach is going to put out the team that he/she feels is going to win the game.  We might like certain players more than others but doesn't mean they are better players. 

What I finding insulting is this isn't just a knock on Wojo but every member of the Marquette bench.  Most assistants are the ones getting the players ready to sub in and are providing data to the head coach on what is going on.  Wojo or any head coach can't do everything by himself.  So what Ners is really saying his rec league scouting ability trumps the experience of Marquette's entire coaching staff.  Or Wojo is just mean spirited but then Buzz would have had to been as well.

Well...if you don’t think 1 assistant coach Year 1 under Wojo felt Derrick Wilson shouldn’t be playing 33 minutes per game - Wojo hired a bunch of idiotic assistants. 

Sure..assistants can give input, but they have ZERO authority or ability to decide who gets subbed in/out. That buck stops with the head coach. Period.

I’d think even a ball boy would know this, but perhaps you were too busy filling water bottles and rebounding balls for the players.

[jesmu84]

Jamal PRPG! 2019(trendy new stat, I've heard): 1.5; BE conference: 0.8
Brendan PRPG! 2019: 2.3; BE conference: 3.0

[brewcity77]

Last 4 games:  29, 13, 10, 22.  Super consistent.  As I said - it's been a yo-yo.  Most don't function well in any role when they have zero consistency in their role, nor have any idea what will be their function any given day.

The point is you are misunderstanding his role. His role is to be a forward off the bench. He's the 7th or 8th guy on any given night. When he comes in and is making a clear difference, those minutes will go up. Like last night. When he comes in and isn't defending well, turning it over, or simply not playing as well as the starter, those minutes will go down. That's the nature of being a bench player. Not everyone can be a starter. Bailey starts because he is a better defender and one of the most offensively efficient players in the Big East.

This isn't a Wojo thing, it's a basketball thing. Consider other teams & minute allocations for some Big East bench players the last 6 games:

Shavar Reynolds, Seton Hall: 14/17/9/20/24/26
Cole Swider, Villanova: 20/31/25/11/5/26
Henry Baddley, Butler: 31/31/19/8/7/24

How about other top coaches:

Jack White, Duke: 18/23/14/9/12/3
Darius Perry, Louisville: 26/23/5/15/19/15
Kyle Ahrens, Michigan State: DNP/8/15/5/19/16

Everyone there is wavering between single digits and upper-teens to twenties. It changes every night depending on how well they are playing, how well the other guys on the team are playing, and what the coaches see in the game. That's just how basketball works. If you aren't a Markus Howard, Sacar Anim type that has earned max minutes every night, you aren't guaranteed a consistent role because the game is never the same. So unless you think that Kevin Willard, Jay Wright, LaVall Jordan, Mike Krzyzewski, Chris Mack, and Tom Izzo are equally inconsistent to Wojo, I'm really not sure what you're trying to assert.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Tamu compared Bailey to Cain and mentioned something along the lines that while Cain beats Bailey in most stats, gets “destroyed” when it comes to TO% (sorry if I inaccurately summarizes it but I believe I got it somewhat right).  I don’t think the “Destroyed” part is true.  I think many have become conditioned to think that do to posts as opposed to actual stats.  I looked at this last year and didn’t see it as more outstanding than any other player on a per minute played basis.  But then again I didn’t actually punch the numbers.  Does anyone have the TO% of our entire team because I’d love to see that.  While I mentioned that Cain does turn it over more than I’d like to see, I think it’s blown out of proportion and then people that hear/read it tend to latch on to it as truth.  Maybe Cain does lead the team in TO% but I’d like to see those numbers for this year and last.  Then if I’m right, I’d like to know how come everyone dogs Cain instead of the real offenders.   It’s understandable if the ones who lead in TO% handle the ball a greater % of the time, so I understand that point.    But if someone’s got those numbers, I’d appreciate seeing them.

I wasn't just talking out my butt. I looked at the actual stats. Bailey's TO% is much lower than Cain's (i.e. destroys him in TO%). The reason people "dog" him about turnovers is because he is the second-worst non-guard in that category.

[BallBoy]

Well...if you don’t think 1 assistant coach Year 1 under Wojo felt Derrick Wilson shouldn’t be playing 33 minutes per game - Wojo hired a bunch of idiotic assistants. 

Sure..assistants can give input, but they have ZERO authority or ability to decide who gets subbed in/out. That buck stops with the head coach. Period.

I’d think even a ball boy would know this, but perhaps you were too busy filling water bottles and rebounding balls for the players.

You already tried to use that one two years ago so I will remind you I won two league A intramural basketball championships, third year finalist, and an intramural league League A championship in soccer at MU with a year abroad so I have played at the “highest levels of basketball.” Threw in a Gus Macker title. If it wasn’t for Wojo in his short shorts and floor slapping defense during his playing days at Duke turning off NBA scouts I would be finishing up a 20+Year all nba career right now. Damn you Wojo.

So not one assistant said to Buzz why are you playing Wilson 30.8 minutes a game with magic Dawson on the bench?  So now Buzz hired a bunch of idiots too?

Ners sees two of Marquette benches’ scouting/coaching abilities as less than what he only can see on tv. If you have a second Gus macker title, I will concede to your basketball acumen is better than mine and Wojo’s.