MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Elonsmusk on February 12, 2020, 10:28:34 PM
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Special shout out to Jamal Cain. The kid has displayed a great attitude throughout his time at MU, despite some tough stretches.
He plays hard, seems to take leadership in on-court huddles, and has remained positive.
Jamal has a ton of potential and I would love to see him rolled out 30 minutes a night through thick and thin. Stick with that kid...extend the leash. He’s a winner.
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Special shout out to Jamal Cain. The kid has displayed a great attitude throughout his time at MU, despite some tough stretches.
He plays hard, seems to take leadership in on-court huddles, and has remained positive.
Jamal has a ton of potential and I would love to see him rolled out 30 minutes a night through thick and thin. Stick with that kid...extend the leash. He’s a winner.
He played well tonight.
He’s shown nothing in nearly 3 years to suggest he deserves 30 minutes per night.
Just another John Dawson for Ners.
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And holy crap he just missed that dunk from 10+ feet out.
I didn’t think he was going to even get close but he did.
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30 minutes per game? No way. That's just not even close to right. He plays 20 per game as it is and does very little with that time. He's had a few nice moments, but overall, he's not consistent enough to warrant more playing time.
Similar to Bailey, scoopers fall in love with one good game and tend to forget about the goose-eggs, of which both have several. Potential is nice to have, but it's not worth taking minutes away from guys who actually produce on a regular basis.
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Makes alot of really dumb mistakes, makes really poor passes and i dont believe he possesses a great bb IQ, but boy oh boy does he compete. If BB competed like jamal he could be all world. Wojo praised jamal about how hard he played n started the comeback. Said if the starters played that hard they wouldnt have been down 18
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He played well tonight.
He’s shown nothing in nearly 3 years to suggest he deserves 30 minutes per night.
Just another John Dawson for Ners.
He shot 48% from 3 as a freshman. Bailey came in and started over him as a sophomore, and Jamal’s playing time was inconsistent AF last year and for the most part this year too.
Jamal reminds me of a harder working JJJ - a player that is uber talented, but has to play nearly perfect for Wojo to stick with him.
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He shot 48% from 3 as a freshman. Bailey came in and started over him as a sophomore, and Jamal’s playing time was inconsistent AF last year and for the most part this year too.
Jamal reminds me of a harder working JJJ - a player that is uber talented, but has to play nearly perfect for Wojo to stick with him.
He went what, 15 for 31 as a freshman? And don't forget that he shot something close to 25% last year from both 3 and FT. Not exactly the next Novak.
At the end of the day, he's a good athlete, but he's too inconsistent and makes too many mistakes to be a good high level guy. I like the kid, but we've seen enough of him to get a pretty good feel for his game.
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30 minutes per game? No way. That's just not even close to right. He plays 20 per game as it is and does very little with that time. He's had a few nice moments, but overall, he's not consistent enough to warrant more playing time.
Similar to Bailey, scoopers fall in love with one good game and tend to forget about the goose-eggs, of which both have several. Potential is nice to have, but it's not worth taking minutes away from guys who actually produce on a regular basis.
Except nobody on this team outside of Markus and Sacar (maybe Koby) produce on a regular basis.
Jamal’s played 44% of minutes. He ranges from 5 minutes to 34 minutes in a game. Multiple games of less than 10 minutes. Hard to get anything done in a few stints of 3 minutes.
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I like him, but still too lose with the ball. Had what seemed a couple of unforced turnovers....but hit key three’s and rebounds.
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I like him, but still too lose with the ball. Had what seemed a couple of unforced turnovers....but hit key three’s and rebounds.
You are right - his handle is his weakness, but his D, rebounding and pretty good 3 point shooting are major assets. Don’t think anyone disagrees he’s the best athlete on the team - and in my view peak athleticism (with some shooting skill) ultimately wins.
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You are right - his handle is his weakness, but his D, rebounding and pretty good 3 point shooting are major assets. Don’t think anyone disagrees he’s the best athlete on the team - and in my view peak athleticism (with some shooting skill) ultimately wins.
I'm good with him getting more minutes. He's improved on defense enough where he's a plus player at both ends. The mistakes he makes are really bad, though.
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I love Jamal. He can truly jump out of the gym.
He sometimes (like on the would-be dunk) gets carried away.
It is fun to see Greg & Jamal work together, though.
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I'm good with him getting more minutes. He's improved on defense enough where he's a plus player at both ends. The mistakes he makes are really bad, though.
Ha. I agree. There are some bad mistakes, but I do feel some of those would subside if he wasn’t quite so tight/fearful of the hook.
Glad to hear Wojo credited him in post game. Jamal’s D has been really good.
I’d actually like to see Jamal redshirt after this season. Unconventional decision but..he’s very young for his class, AND think next year is going to be a down year. Let him get stronger, finish out with Greg...and they possibly make some noise as seniors together with sophomores Dawson, Lewis, Oso.
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We get it. Find yourself a bench player who had a nice game. Or a nice half. Or heck, a nice pass! Claim Wojo sucks, is messing with his mind, should be giving him “max minutes,” and it’s not the kid’s fault that he shows up once a season because after all if Wojo gave him 40 minutes a game he’d suddenly know how to dribble and pass the ball and MJ would be looking up at the kid in no time.
We know how this goes. It’s insanely irrational, but it’s what you do. You’ll argue it until the kid is 8 years gone, having done nothing more than be the backup he was for a number of different coaches. But it’s all because that dang Wojo guy couldn’t find him the 40 minutes he deserved because he made under 1/2 of a 3 pointer per game as a freshman.
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Ha. I agree. There are some bad mistakes, but I do feel some of those would subside if he wasn’t quite so tight/fearful of the hook.
Glad to hear Wojo credited him in post game. Jamal’s D has been really good.
I’d actually like to see Jamal redshirt after this season. Unconventional decision but..he’s very young for his class, AND think next year is going to be a down year. Let him get stronger, finish out with Greg...and they possibly make some noise as seniors together with sophomores Dawson, Lewis, Oso.
Wrong!!!
Jamals only chance to get minutes over the 3 incoming forwards is next year when he is a senior n they are Freshman. If he redshirts n they get a year of weights n college ball under their belts he may never play
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We get it. Find yourself a bench player who had a nice game. Or a nice half. Or heck, a nice pass! Claim Wojo sucks, is messing with his mind, should be giving him “max minutes,” and it’s not the kid’s fault that he shows up once a season because after all if Wojo gave him 40 minutes a game he’d suddenly know how to dribble and pass the ball and MJ would be looking up at the kid in no time.
We know how this goes. It’s insanely irrational, but it’s what you do. You’ll argue it until the kid is 8 years gone, having done nothing more than be the backup he was for a number of different coaches. But it’s all because that dang Wojo guy couldn’t find him the 40 minutes he deserved because he made under 1/2 of a 3 pointer per game as a freshman.
It would be nice if our head coach knew who his most talented players were. You wouldn’t think it would be a problem, but, for Wojo - it has been.
You’d also think he’d realize as a former player that you can’t yank guys in and out of games/lineup and expect any kind of consistent performance.
Let’s see:
Derrick Wilson 33 minutes per game with Matt Carlino, Duane Wilson and John Dawson on the roster. Genius.
Starting Sandy Cohen over Deonte Burton and playing Deonte an average of 16 minutes coming off his Big East All Freshman year. Brilliant!
Trying to shove Haanif Cheatham into a PG role with a pure point Traci Carter on the roster. Shrewd!
Playing JJJ 56 and 60% of available minutes as a junior and senior. Smart!
And here we are 5.5 years later still searching for our first NCAA win under your hero...while having an all-time great on the roster these past 4 seasons.
So yea, pardon me for getting irrationally frustrated with how he coaches.
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It would be nice if our head coach had a knew who his most talented players were. You wouldn’t think it would be a problem, but, for Wojo - it has been.
You’d also think he’d realize as a former player that you can’t yank guys in and out of games/lineup and expect any kind of consistent performance.
Let’s see:
Derrick Wilson 33 minutes per game with Matt Carlino, Duane Wilson and John Dawson on the roster. Genius.
Starting Sandy Cohen over Deonte Burton and playing Deonte an average of 16 minutes coming off his Big East All Freshman year. Brilliant!
Trying to shove Haanif Cheatham into a PG role with a pure point Traci Carter on the roster. Shrewd!
Playing JJJ 56 and 60% of available minutes as a junior and senior. Smart!
And here we are 5.5 years later still searching for our first NCAA win under your hero...while having an all-time great on the roster these past 4 seasons.
So yea, pardon me for getting irrationally frustrated with how he coaches.
You got the irrational part correct at least.
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It would be nice if our head coach had a knew who his most talented players were. You wouldn’t think it would be a problem, but, for Wojo - it has been.
You’d also think he’d realize as a former player that you can’t yank guys in and out of games/lineup and expect any kind of consistent performance.
Let’s see:
Derrick Wilson 33 minutes per game with Matt Carlino, Duane Wilson and John Dawson on the roster. Genius.
Starting Sandy Cohen over Deonte Burton and playing Deonte an average of 16 minutes coming off his Big East All Freshman year. Brilliant!
Trying to shove Haanif Cheatham into a PG role with a pure point Traci Carter on the roster. Shrewd!
Playing JJJ 56 and 60% of available minutes as a junior and senior. Smart!
And here we are 5.5 years later still searching for our first NCAA win under your hero...while having an all-time great on the roster these past 4 seasons.
So yea, pardon me for getting irrationally frustrated with how he coaches.
I think Carlino took enough shots that year lol. Cheatham played at 2 high majors whereas Carter immediately went to a low major. I don’t think the decision to play “Haney” can be used as evidence against Wojos ability to evaluate talent.
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I think Carlino took enough shots that year lol. Cheatham played at 2 high majors whereas Carter immediately went to a low major. I don’t think the decision to play “Haney” can be used as evidence against Wojos ability to evaluate talent.
Cheatham went from MU to Florida Gulf Coast U. Carter went from MU to LaSalle U. FGCU is a “high” and LaSalle is a “low”?
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Joey started over Cain and Bailey last year. Bailey is bigger, a better defender, a better ball handler, and more consistent. Jamal had a great second half last night.
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Cheatham went from MU to Florida Gulf Coast U. Carter went from MU to LaSalle U. FGCU is a “high” and LaSalle is a “low”?
Cheatham had another stop.
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Cheatham had another stop.
No sh!t. But Roads said Cheatham played at TWO high majors after leaving Marquette.
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No sh!t. But Roads said Cheatham played at TWO high majors after leaving Marquette.
He’s playing this year you know
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He’s playing this year you know
Unless he's playing for Nebraska and another school, that's still only one high major.
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Unless he's playing for Nebraska and another school, that's still only one high major.
Lol. Need more coffee!
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It would be nice if our head coach had a knew who his most talented players were. You wouldn’t think it would be a problem, but, for Wojo - it has been.
You’d also think he’d realize as a former player that you can’t yank guys in and out of games/lineup and expect any kind of consistent performance.
Let’s see:
Derrick Wilson 33 minutes per game with Matt Carlino, Duane Wilson and John Dawson on the roster. Genius.
Starting Sandy Cohen over Deonte Burton and playing Deonte an average of 16 minutes coming off his Big East All Freshman year. Brilliant!
Trying to shove Haanif Cheatham into a PG role with a pure point Traci Carter on the roster. Shrewd!
Playing JJJ 56 and 60% of available minutes as a junior and senior. Smart!
And here we are 5.5 years later still searching for our first NCAA win under your hero...while having an all-time great on the roster these past 4 seasons.
So yea, pardon me for getting irrationally frustrated with how he coaches.
And here we go.
You have a history of equating athleticism with talent, and advocate endlessly for the more athletic player.
Simply put Jamal is not one of the more talented players. He has stretches where he looks very good. He is getting the minutes he deserves.
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Simply put Jamal is not one of the more talented players. He has stretches where he looks very good. He is getting the minutes he deserves.
Yup. I credit Jamal with keeping a very positive attitude and helping the team where he can. He's a role player who is good on the boards and with the spot up 3. But he is getting the minutes he has earned.
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Jamal shooting 51% from the field and 42% from 3. Actually is our best 3 point shooter percentage wise right now, though obviously, he has only 38 attempts
His rebounding is excellent and I thought his on the ball D was good last night.
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No sh!t. But Roads said Cheatham played at TWO high majors after leaving Marquette.
Unless he's playing for Nebraska and another school, that's still only one high major.
Reread Roads's post.
"Cheatham played at 2 high majors."
1 - Marquette
2 - Nebraska
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And here we go.
You have a history of equating athleticism with talent, and advocate endlessly for the more athletic player.
Simply put Jamal is not one of the more talented players. He has stretches where he looks very good. He is getting the minutes he deserves.
Bingo.
Jamal had a great half. Glad he did. To take that and turn it into "Wojo doesn't know who his best players are, I played high school ball and unless you've played at my level you just can't know these things. Wojo is messing with Jamal's head and if he was getting 30 minutes per game you'd be seeing Kevin Durant" is a joke and ignored that Wojo may or may not have played high school ball.
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It would be nice if our head coach had a knew who his most talented players were. You wouldn’t think it would be a problem, but, for Wojo - it has been.
You’d also think he’d realize as a former player that you can’t yank guys in and out of games/lineup and expect any kind of consistent performance.
Let’s see:
Derrick Wilson 33 minutes per game with Matt Carlino, Duane Wilson and John Dawson on the roster. Genius.
Starting Sandy Cohen over Deonte Burton and playing Deonte an average of 16 minutes coming off his Big East All Freshman year. Brilliant!
Trying to shove Haanif Cheatham into a PG role with a pure point Traci Carter on the roster. Shrewd!
Playing JJJ 56 and 60% of available minutes as a junior and senior. Smart!
And here we are 5.5 years later still searching for our first NCAA win under your hero...while having an all-time great on the roster these past 4 seasons.
So yea, pardon me for getting irrationally frustrated with how he coaches.
With the incredible knowledge you have, how is it possible that you are not a P6 college basketball coach?
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No sh!t. But Roads said Cheatham played at TWO high majors after leaving Marquette.
That is not what he said...he said TWO high majors, he said nothing about AFTER MU. Nebraska and MU are the two.
The verdict is in.
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Joey started over Cain and Bailey last year. Bailey is bigger, a better defender, a better ball handler, and more consistent. Jamal had a great second half last night.
Brendan handles the ball better than Jamal (less turnover prone), but Brendan also has an abysmal FT Rate because he's rarely aggressive.
Beyond that? Brendan doesn't do much better, (and actually is worse in many categories) and he isn't as athletic. Personally, I'd like to see Cain and Bailey play together more, with Koby coming off the bench.
eFG?
Cain 60%
Brendan 54%
2 pt FG%
Cain 57%
Bailey 46%
3pt FG%
Cain 42%
Bailey 39%
FT%
Cain 71%
Bailey 56%
FT Rate
Cain 32.9%
Bailey 9.8% (20% points below the next lowest FT Rate player on team - Sacar)
Fouls Commited per 40
Cain 3.2
Bailey 4.0
Jamal exceeds Bailey in every category other than Assist Rate (2.8% differential), TO Rate (10% differential), and Block Percentage (0.8% differential)
They are similar players, but Bailey has gotten 20% more minutes. This isn't meant to dis Brendan - he's much improved over last year. I'd like to see more Bailey/Cain on the floor.
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Cain is a fun watch because he is so athletic. He really skies to grab rebounds. His faith in his athleticism can be a problem from time to time, like that ill-fated dunk attempt from so far away last night. That was a big miss at an important time. He played very well last night and ignited our comeback.
When watching us, there a couple things that usually make me feel like something bad is going to happen. One is on entry passes to Theo when there is a man between him and the basket, another is when Cain puts the ball on the deck. The third is those few times a game when Markus has the ball and is well covered and you just know he has decided that he is shooting this time come hell or high water. Koby does that once or twice a game, too.
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Cain is a fun watch because he is so athletic. He really skies to grab rebounds. His faith in his athleticism can be a problem from time to time, like that ill-fated dunk attempt from so far away last night. That was a big miss at an important time. He played very well last night and ignited our comeback.
When watching us, there a couple things that usually make me feel like something bad is going to happen. One is on entry passes to Theo when there is a man between him and the basket, another is when Cain puts the ball on the deck. The third is those few times a game when Markus has the ball and is well covered and you just know he has decided that he is shooting this time come hell or high water. Koby does that once or twice a game, too.
Cain makes 1-2 passes into a defenders hands a game. His post entry passes are a clinic on how to do everything incorrectly
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Cain makes 1-2 passes into a defenders hands a game. His post entry passes are a clinic on how to do everything incorrectly
I don't disagree with poor post entry technique. However, considering how little our guards share the ball with bigs - don't mind the effort.
Further, this is a pretty simple coaching moment. So, the poor post entry feeds are as much an indictment of coaching as they are Jamal.
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I don't disagree with poor post entry technique. However, considering how little our guards share the ball with bigs - don't mind the effort.
So let me get this straight. Our bigs are not gifted offensively. That is why the ball isn't shared with them usually.
So you "appreciate the effort" of someone trying to feed our least talented offensive players and doing it badly???
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So let me get this straight. Our bigs are not gifted offensively. That is why the ball isn't shared with them usually.
So you "appreciate the effort" of someone trying to feed our least talented offensive players and doing it badly???
I appreciate the effort of playing a team sport, and involving your whole team. There isn't anything bad about establishing just a sliver of a post game.
Theo's eFG is 48%. Jayce 68%. Koby? 42%
Of course I'd like Jamal to be better with his post entry passing, just as I'd like Markus to be better with his perimeter passing, and passing while driving. Mistakes happen, but they shouldn't on post entry.
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Yeah I don't understand why anyone on this team would throw the ball into the post. Slips, cuts, those type of things? Sure. But neither of them can be counted on to get a bucket themselves. And Theo can't really even be trusted to catch it and get it to the rim.
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Ners is really showing his superior basketball knowledge here.
Cain max minutes.
Feed our bigs back to the basket post ups.
He really does have a superior knowledge to anyone else on this board, and to our coaching staff. He must come up with this stuff while he's in the air with his infinite hang time dunking on people. Must get boring being so high up and having to pass the time it takes to get back to the ground?
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I’m with Elon on this one. While I don’t post much at all, the few times I’ve posted these last two years we’re about the mishandling of Cain......I went to bed for the second half of last nights game so I didn’t see it. I think He’s a great player who would be playing even better had his confidence not been rocked last year. I think people see that Wojo would yank him after a TO (I admit some were boneheaded and careless) and agree with Wojos decision. That still amazes me. Tell me that Cain is the only one on this team guilty of it and you’re fooling yourself. The difference is Cain gets yanked. It’s my personal opinion that Wojo has his favorites and those favorites have a longer leash (see Joey and Bailey as examples). I’ll tell you that I personally want Cain in at the end of a tight game especially for his rebounding ability - something that gets easily overlooked.
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This year, at the 4 and 5, I think Wojo has apportioned moments due to production and foul trouble. I think his feel for it has been pretty good. When one of them is playing well, he rides them. I was thrilled for Cain last night. He was playing well in the second half after playing poorly in the first half and Wojo rode him.
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This year, at the 4 and 5, I think Wojo has apportioned moments due to production and foul trouble. I think his feel for it has been pretty good. When one of them is playing well, he rides them. I was thrilled for Cain last night. He was playing well in the second half after playing poorly in the first half and Wojo rode him.
This. Overall Brendan is a far better and player, but he has had the occasional non-factor game, and when that's happened Cain has gotten every opportunity to step in and perform. It's not like this is the first time Cain's gotten significant run. It's just one of the rare occasions he's done more than rebound the basketball in those minutes.
Good guy. Glad he stuck around. Rebounds well. But beyond that he doesn't do anything significant beyond hitting the warmup open jumper. The one thing he does well enough to warrant playing time (rebound) is something that we are already good at even with Wojo's mind games pinning him to the bench (very, very good rebounding team).
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I don't disagree with poor post entry technique. However, considering how little our guards share the ball with bigs - don't mind the effort.
Further, this is a pretty simple coaching moment. So, the poor post entry feeds are as much an indictment of coaching as they are Jamal.
Dont disagree on that as far as coaching, although he comes out it seems each time he does it.... and others dont struggle like he does. No one else feeds the post from the top of the key, no one else feeds from the high side when the post has position on the low side etc
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Not going to read the incessant drivel. I'll simply say two things. I love Jamal's attitude and effort. And I think he thought he was Giannis for a split second last night. That dunk would have been epic.
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Jamal has incredible natural ability. He is smooth and can jump like a kangaroo. I think splitting time with Brendan is the best option right now with whomever is playing better in a particular game getting the majority of playing time for that game. With good coaching and applying what he learns, he could have an impressive career overseas playing pro BB.
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This year, at the 4 and 5, I think Wojo has apportioned moments due to production and foul trouble. I think his feel for it has been pretty good. When one of them is playing well, he rides them. I was thrilled for Cain last night. He was playing well in the second half after playing poorly in the first half and Wojo rode him.
This, obviously.
If one wants to make the argument that Wojo unfairly banished Cain last year, that's at least a reasonable point. But it also has nothing to do with this season, when Wojo usually has given him plenty of playing time, has mostly stuck with him through mistakes, and, as has been the case with anybody else, has ridden him when he's really played well.
As others have noted, Cain can be a disaster when he puts the ball on the floor, and he still loses his man too often on defense. But he has improved a lot this season and has contributed very nicely in many, many games. He is one of my favorite Warriors to watch.
Also agree with others that while that dunk would have been spectacular last night, failing to get those 2 points at that stage of the game was a pretty major missed opportunity.
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Ners is really showing his superior basketball knowledge here.
Cain max minutes.
Feed our bigs back to the basket post ups.
He really does have a superior knowledge to anyone else on this board, and to our coaching staff. He must come up with this stuff while he's in the air with his infinite hang time dunking on people. Must get boring being so high up and having to pass the time it takes to get back to the ground?
You really are a tool Wades. Truly.
You are a volleyball guy, who ironically acts as if you have superior basketball knowledge to anyone else on this board. At least I'm not so dumb to wade into a volleyball message board and act like a know it all.
This is a board where people share opinions and debate things. All you do? Defend every single thing Wojo does from recruiting, to playing time, to in-game coaching. In your ignorant view - Wojo can do no wrong, has done now wrong, and has been beyond reproach.
At least I can compliment Wojo where I see fit. You? 99.5% of your posts are all ProJo. You used to support the Hausers and start topics begging for Markus to share the ball - once they transferred out they were vanilla soft serve, "who," weak, selfish, cry babies, etc.
When we aren't involved with a recruit it would seem we should be, or we don't close the deal with a recruit we were actively pursusing - its always because we weren't willing to "pay," or be shady, etc.
You give apologist a new definition entirely. So far, the guy you've hitched your horse to through and through has produced arguably the worst results at MU since Bob Dukiet. Can't even win an NCAA game or advance to semis of Big East any of the last three years with the program's all-time leading scorer that Stan landed.
Hopefully this will be the year we breakthrough, but if we don't, I know we can count on one thing: You will absolutely tell us all that NCAA is a crapshoot, refs were terrible, we got a bad draw, location, etc. If we win a couple of games: You will pop off suggesting Wojo is making MU Duke north - yet 1 year does not make a pattern, trend, etc.
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Makes alot of really dumb mistakes, makes really poor passes and i dont believe he possesses a great bb IQ, but boy oh boy does he compete. If BB competed like jamal he could be all world. Wojo praised jamal about how hard he played n started the comeback. Said if the starters played that hard they wouldnt have been down 18
Great point.
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I’m with Elon on this one. While I don’t post much at all, the few times I’ve posted these last two years we’re about the mishandling of Cain......I went to bed for the second half of last nights game so I didn’t see it. I think He’s a great player who would be playing even better had his confidence not been rocked last year. I think people see that Wojo would yank him after a TO (I admit some were boneheaded and careless) and agree with Wojos decision. That still amazes me. Tell me that Cain is the only one on this team guilty of it and you’re fooling yourself. The difference is Cain gets yanked. It’s my personal opinion that Wojo has his favorites and those favorites have a longer leash (see Joey and Bailey as examples). I’ll tell you that I personally want Cain in at the end of a tight game especially for his rebounding ability - something that gets easily overlooked.
You are 100% on point. Wojo absolutely develops favorites, and the leash extended is quite different.
Brendan's leash has been FAR longer than Cain's. No better way to destroy a player's confidence than to yank him out consistently after a mistake/turnover. Meanwhile you watch the chosen ones throw the ball all over the place, without any consequence. There is a reason why many players have regressed/haven't improved much under Wojo, transferred, quit mid-season, etc.
Now, he has gotten better, but he needs to develop a bit more consistency in his approach.
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So far, the guy you've hitched your horse to through and through has produced arguably the worst results at MU since Bob Dukiet.
Not to quote JB but
#fakenews #lies
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This. Overall Brendan is a far better and player, but he has had the occasional non-factor game, and when that's happened Cain has gotten every opportunity to step in and perform. It's not like this is the first time Cain's gotten significant run. It's just one of the rare occasions he's done more than rebound the basketball in those minutes.
Good guy. Glad he stuck around. Rebounds well. But beyond that he doesn't do anything significant beyond hitting the warmup open jumper. The one thing he does well enough to warrant playing time (rebound) is something that we are already good at even with Wojo's mind games pinning him to the bench (very, very good rebounding team).
LOL. Except Cain outperforms Brendan in virtually every measurable category. What a dick thing to say: Cain does nothing "significant beyond hitting the warmup open jumper."
Brendan has greatly improved over last seasons mostly forgettable year. I like what he brings. As I've posted, I'd like to see more of him and Cain together. Rebounding and defense would be really strong, and with both of their shooting ability, we could space the floor quite well.
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LOL. In limited minutes and sample size,Except Cain outperforms Brendan in virtually every measurable category. What a dick thing to say: Cain does nothing "significant beyond hitting the warmup open jumper."
Brendan has greatly improved over last seasons mostly forgettable year. I like what he brings. As I've posted, I'd like to see more of him and Cain together. Rebounding and defense would be really strong, and with both of their shooting ability, we could space the floor quite well.
FIFY.
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Length of leash is not based on favorites, if it was, Matt wouldn't have been glued to the bench his senior year. It is based on who the best players are. Markus gets to play through more mistakes than everyone does. Koby gets to play through more mistakes than Symir does. Brendan gets to play through more mistakes than Jamal does because he is better than Jamal at least right now.
I agree that Cain has a lot of upside. He has all the physical tools but still doesn't have the basketball IQ to consistently utilize them. He is my pick this year to be the surprise MU player who gets a cup of coffee in the NBA. But just like Buzz didn't mismanage Juan Anderson when he was in college, I don't think Wojo is mismanaging Cain. I think he is one of those players that won't peak until several years after he graduates.
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You really are a tool Wades. Truly.
You are a volleyball guy, who ironically acts as if you have superior basketball knowledge to anyone else on this board. At least I'm not so dumb to wade into a volleyball message board and act like a know it all.
This is a board where people share opinions and debate things. All you do? Defend every single thing Wojo does from recruiting, to playing time, to in-game coaching. In your ignorant view - Wojo can do no wrong, has done now wrong, and has been beyond reproach.
At least I can compliment Wojo where I see fit. You? 99.5% of your posts are all ProJo. You used to support the Hausers and start topics begging for Markus to share the ball - once they transferred out they were vanilla soft serve, "who," weak, selfish, cry babies, etc.
When we aren't involved with a recruit it would seem we should be, or we don't close the deal with a recruit we were actively pursusing - its always because we weren't willing to "pay," or be shady, etc.
You give apologist a new definition entirely. So far, the guy you've hitched your horse to through and through has produced arguably the worst results at MU since Bob Dukiet. Can't even win an NCAA game or advance to semis of Big East any of the last three years with the program's all-time leading scorer that Stan landed.
Hopefully this will be the year we breakthrough, but if we don't, I know we can count on one thing: You will absolutely tell us all that NCAA is a crapshoot, refs were terrible, we got a bad draw, location, etc. If we win a couple of games: You will pop off suggesting Wojo is making MU Duke north - yet 1 year does not make a pattern, trend, etc.
Lol. Take a minute to cool down before posting after you get all triggered next time. Then maybe you’ll get something right. I think I’ve made one of the about twenty statements you claim I’ve made.
Also, I’m guessing you’ll be consistent and hold the belief Matt Heldt was one of the best players in the country given his off the charts efficiency.
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You really are a tool Wades. Truly.
You are a volleyball guy, who ironically acts as if you have superior basketball knowledge to anyone else on this board. At least I'm not so dumb to wade into a volleyball message board and act like a know it all.
This is a board where people share opinions and debate things. All you do? Defend every single thing Wojo does from recruiting, to playing time, to in-game coaching. In your ignorant view - Wojo can do no wrong, has done now wrong, and has been beyond reproach.
At least I can compliment Wojo where I see fit. You? 99.5% of your posts are all ProJo. You used to support the Hausers and start topics begging for Markus to share the ball - once they transferred out they were vanilla soft serve, "who," weak, selfish, cry babies, etc.
When we aren't involved with a recruit it would seem we should be, or we don't close the deal with a recruit we were actively pursusing - its always because we weren't willing to "pay," or be shady, etc.
You give apologist a new definition entirely. So far, the guy you've hitched your horse to through and through has produced arguably the worst results at MU since Bob Dukiet. Can't even win an NCAA game or advance to semis of Big East any of the last three years with the program's all-time leading scorer that Stan landed.
Hopefully this will be the year we breakthrough, but if we don't, I know we can count on one thing: You will absolutely tell us all that NCAA is a crapshoot, refs were terrible, we got a bad draw, location, etc. If we win a couple of games: You will pop off suggesting Wojo is making MU Duke north - yet 1 year does not make a pattern, trend, etc.
Dribble dribble
For you Verdict Is In brigade, are you all really making the argument that poor coach suddenly becomes good or knowledgeable over the course of one 40 minute period in March? Just think about that for a moment before you respond, because that’s the vibe a lot of you give off.
It’s as if a light will go based on that one result over 40 minutes and everything is suddenly erased. Guess what will happen if we win...then you will push the goalposts to he hasn’t gone to a Sweet 16, then it will be an Elite 8. Al McGuire captured it well with our fanbase with his quote about it is never good enough....no wonder why people clam out to get away.
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LOL. Except Cain outperforms Brendan in virtually every measurable category. What a dick thing to say: Cain does nothing "significant beyond hitting the warmup open jumper."
Sample size matters in these things. Also, the categories Cain beats Bailey in he has a slim lead in most of them (other than FTR) but gets destroyed in TO%. That's going to undo a lot of positives. Quickest way to lose playing time with any coach, not just Wojo, is TOs and defensive lapses. Unfortunately, those are Cain's Achilles' heel.
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Coaches have favorites but that doesn’t mean they play minutes. Matt Heldt anyone?
It’s more about confidence with players. Cain as freak athleticism, and can make runs that are really good. He still has mistakes that are hard to excuse (not nearly as many as in the past) which I am sure drives Wojo and staff crazy.
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Not to quote JB but
#fakenews #lies
+ tax
Ners apparently doesn’t understand history or comparative segments
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LOL. Except Cain outperforms Brendan in virtually every measurable category. What a dick thing to say: Cain does nothing "significant beyond hitting the warmup open jumper."
Brendan has greatly improved over last seasons mostly forgettable year. I like what he brings. As I've posted, I'd like to see more of him and Cain together. Rebounding and defense would be really strong, and with both of their shooting ability, we could space the floor quite well.
How do measure defensive breakdowns by players....
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Sample size matters in these things. Also, the categories Cain beats Bailey in he has a slim lead in most of them (other than FTR) but gets destroyed in TO%. That's going to undo a lot of positives. Quickest way to lose playing time with any coach, not just Wojo, is TOs and defensive lapses. Unfortunately, those are Cain's Achilles' heel.
Cain rarely has defensive lapses, he's a very good on-ball defender, and help-side defender. Do yourself a favor - isolate watching Cain and Bailey on D, and come back and let me know if you think Brendan is better? IMO, they are both in our Top 4 defenders.
As for "sample size," hard to have a bigger sample size with 20% less PT. Also, I'd argue 6% eFG% is a big difference, the FT Rate differential is significant.
Further, any one who has played the game will tell you it is harder to produce if you are frequently relegated to 2-4 minute stints of PT. I understand some think every player should come in guns ablaze and post great numbers right off the bench...but..it doesn't work like that.
Lastly, to reiterate - This is NOT a dis of Brendan - I'd just like to see a lot more of them playing together/Cain's PT approach 25 minutes on a consistent basis.
Cain's PT is like a Yo-Yo. Since beginning of conference play in minutes: 17, 10, 9, 9, 19, 8, 21, 21, 29, 13, 10, 22. Brendan has had just 1 game under 10 minutes all year. Since conference play began his low water minutes marks have been 18 and 19 - the rest are virtually all 30+.
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Cain rarely has defensive lapses, he's a very good on-ball defender, and help-side defender. Do yourself a favor - isolate watching Cain and Bailey on D, and come back and let me know if you think Brendan is better? IMO, they are both in our Top 4 defenders.
As for "sample size," hard to have a bigger sample size with 20% less PT. Also, I'd argue 6% eFG% is a big difference, the FT Rate differential is significant.
Further, any one who has played the game will tell you it is harder to produce if you are frequently relegated to 2-4 minute stints of PT. I understand some think every player should come in guns ablaze and post great numbers right off the bench...but..it doesn't work like that.
Lastly, to reiterate - This is NOT a dis of Brendan - I'd just like to see a lot more of them playing together/Cain's PT approach 25 minutes on a consistent basis.
Cain's PT is like a Yo-Yo. Since beginning of conference play in minutes: 17, 10, 9, 9, 19, 8, 21, 21, 29, 13, 10, 22. Brendan has had just 1 game under 10 minutes all year. Since conference play began his low water minutes marks have been 18 and 19 - the rest are virtually all 30+.
;D ;D ;D
Gets triggered when I mock this argument. Then goes and makes the argument an hour later. Hysterical.
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;D ;D ;D
Gets triggered when I mock this argument. Then goes and makes the argument an hour later. Hysterical.
There is no "triggered" Wades. You miss the mark 9 times out of 10 with your basketball analysis. To be expected for a volleyball guy. I'd be insulted if a guy like you actually agreed with my perspective. Truly.
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Cain rarely has defensive lapses, he's a very good on-ball defender, and help-side defender. Do yourself a favor - isolate watching Cain and Bailey on D, and come back and let me know if you think Brendan is better? IMO, they are both in our Top 4 defenders.
As for "sample size," hard to have a bigger sample size with 20% less PT. Also, I'd argue 6% eFG% is a big difference, the FT Rate differential is significant.
Further, any one who has played the game will tell you it is harder to produce if you are frequently relegated to 2-4 minute stints of PT. I understand some think every player should come in guns ablaze and post great numbers right off the bench...but..it doesn't work like that.
Lastly, to reiterate - This is NOT a dis of Brendan - I'd just like to see a lot more of them playing together/Cain's PT approach 25 minutes on a consistent basis.
Cain's PT is like a Yo-Yo. Since beginning of conference play in minutes: 17, 10, 9, 9, 19, 8, 21, 21, 29, 13, 10, 22. Brendan has had just 1 game under 10 minutes all year. Since conference play began his low water minutes marks have been 18 and 19 - the rest are virtually all 30+.
Hypothesis: Wojo sucks because he isn't playing Cain enough.
Evidence: Playing time by game of 17-10-9-9-19-8-21-21-29-13-10-22
Analysis: First 6 games - 72 minutes (12 mpg)
Last 6 games - 116 minutes (19.3 mpg)
Yep. That checks out. ::)
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There is no "triggered" Wades. You miss the mark 9 times out of 10 with your basketball analysis. To be expected for a volleyball guy. I'd be insulted if a guy like you actually agreed with my perspective. Truly.
Outstanding.
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Hypothesis: Wojo sucks because he isn't playing Cain enough.
Evidence: Playing time by game of 17-10-9-9-19-8-21-21-29-13-10-22
Analysis: First 6 games - 72 minutes (12 mpg)
Last 6 games - 116 minutes (19.3 mpg)
Yep. That checks out. ::)
You must not be in the rarified air of "former high school basketball player." Only a very select few in the world have reached that level. You'd understand if you had, you dumb flute player.
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I dunked a basketball
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I dunked a flute player
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I dunked a flute player
Was he in treble?
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I've played and watched enough basketball to know that sometimes players play out of their mind for a game. And then they go right back to their norm. While it would be nice if yesterday was indicative of a new Jamal, my guess is that it will be viewed as an outlier by season's end.
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Cain rarely has defensive lapses, he's a very good on-ball defender, and help-side defender. Do yourself a favor - isolate watching Cain and Bailey on D, and come back and let me know if you think Brendan is better? IMO, they are both in our Top 4 defenders.
Cain is a very good on ball defender, better than Bailey IMHO. When his assignment has the ball and he's on them, I'd rather have him than most of the players on the team.
He isn't a great team defender. Other than maybe Symir he leads the team in missed rotations, being late to help defense, and simply losing his man when his assignment is off ball.
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Hypothesis: Wojo sucks because he isn't playing Cain enough.
Evidence: Playing time by game of 17-10-9-9-19-8-21-21-29-13-10-22
Analysis: First 6 games - 72 minutes (12 mpg)
Last 6 games - 116 minutes (19.3 mpg)
Yep. That checks out. ::)
Last 4 games: 29, 13, 10, 22. Super consistent. As I said - it's been a yo-yo. Most don't function well in any role when they have zero consistency in their role, nor have any idea what will be their function any given day.
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Last 4 games: 29, 13, 10, 22. Super consistent. As I said - it's been a yo-yo. Most don't function well in any role when they have zero consistency in their role, nor have any idea what will be their function any given day.
That’s a Jamal problem, not a Wojo problem
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That’s a Jamal problem, not a Wojo problem
But this is what Ners does. He uses yo-yo minutes as a reason for poor production. But in reality it's the opposite. They get yo-yo minutes because they don't consistently produce.
He used to have the same complaint about Traci Carter. Who has since transferred twice - first to LaSalle in the A10 and then to Hartford in the American East, where he still can't really shoot.
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But this is what Ners does. He uses yo-yo minutes as a reason for poor production. But in reality it's the opposite. They get yo-yo minutes because they don't consistently produce.
He used to have the same complaint about Traci Carter. Who has since transferred twice - first to LaSalle in the A10 and then to Hartford in the American East, where he still can't really shoot.
I know. Anyone that’s ever played the game would know that, too.
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I really like both Cain and Bailey. However, before the Jacksonville game I was wondering if the wrong player was starting. Then Cain and Bailey both started (Markus was out) against Jacksonville. Seeing them both on the floor together for extended period of time clearly showed to me that Bailey was the better player.
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Cain is a fun watch because he is so athletic. He really skies to grab rebounds. His faith in his athleticism can be a problem from time to time, like that ill-fated dunk attempt from so far away last night. That was a big miss at an important time. He played very well last night and ignited our comeback.
When watching us, there a couple things that usually make me feel like something bad is going to happen. One is on entry passes to Theo when there is a man between him and the basket, another is when Cain puts the ball on the deck. The third is those few times a game when Markus has the ball and is well covered and you just know he has decided that he is shooting this time come hell or high water. Koby does that once or twice a game, too.
Your second paragraph sums up my real time concerns while watching a game as well.
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Bailey is better
Jamal has got more dog in him
Bailey disappears too much, doesnt get fouled etc. to start the game last night Bailey had two dunks, in both plays he pulled up and faded away, missed both, air balled one. Jamal went for the dunk (whole other story smh)
One of the biggest games of the year Bailey never got off the plane. His stat line says it all.
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Tamu compared Bailey to Cain and mentioned something along the lines that while Cain beats Bailey in most stats, gets “destroyed” when it comes to TO% (sorry if I inaccurately summarizes it but I believe I got it somewhat right). I don’t think the “Destroyed” part is true. I think many have become conditioned to think that do to posts as opposed to actual stats. I looked at this last year and didn’t see it as more outstanding than any other player on a per minute played basis. But then again I didn’t actually punch the numbers. Does anyone have the TO% of our entire team because I’d love to see that. While I mentioned that Cain does turn it over more than I’d like to see, I think it’s blown out of proportion and then people that hear/read it tend to latch on to it as truth. Maybe Cain does lead the team in TO% but I’d like to see those numbers for this year and last. Then if I’m right, I’d like to know how come everyone dogs Cain instead of the real offenders. It’s understandable if the ones who lead in TO% handle the ball a greater % of the time, so I understand that point. But if someone’s got those numbers, I’d appreciate seeing them.
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I dunked a basketball
I dunked a donut
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Tamu compared Bailey to Cain and mentioned something along the lines that while Cain beats Bailey in most stats, gets “destroyed” when it comes to TO% (sorry if I inaccurately summarizes it but I believe I got it somewhat right). I don’t think the “Destroyed” part is true. I think many have become conditioned to think that do to posts as opposed to actual stats. I looked at this last year and didn’t see it as more outstanding than any other player on a per minute played basis. But then again I didn’t actually punch the numbers. Does anyone have the TO% of our entire team because I’d love to see that. While I mentioned that Cain does turn it over more than I’d like to see, I think it’s blown out of proportion and then people that hear/read it tend to latch on to it as truth. Maybe Cain does lead the team in TO% but I’d like to see those numbers for this year and last. Then if I’m right, I’d like to know how come everyone dogs Cain instead of the real offenders. It’s understandable if the ones who lead in TO% handle the ball a greater % of the time, so I understand that point. But if someone’s got those numbers, I’d appreciate seeing them.
Team turnover % is 18.3%, Jamal is at 20.5%. Bailey is at 11.8%. Greg and Koby are worse.
His turnover rate was 32% last year, so he has gotten much better.
The issue here is Ners is looking for something that isn’t there. It’s trolling
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Ok, I looked it up for this year:
Bailey turns it over once every 32.9 mins
Cain turns it over once every 19.95 mins
Sacar every 19.1 mins
Elliott every 16.7
Conclusion is Bailey destroys not only Cain but also Elliott and Sacar in TO%. Cain is about even with Sacar and both of them are better than Elliot. What bothers me is that people just repeat what they read as truth. I don’t hear much about TO’s when talking about Sacar or Elliott but it’s the main talking point about Cain and it’s not justified considering the other two guys. Play Cain more please........I’ve been saying it since last year......In all fairness, I believe Cain improved in this TO stat from last year.
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Sorry, I posted without seeing yours, Rico. Thanks for the info.
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I DUNK my Oreo's ! ! ! 8-)
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Ok, I looked it up for this year:
Bailey turns it over once every 32.9 mins
Cain turns it over once every 19.95 mins
Sacar every 19.1 mins
Elliott every 16.7
Conclusion is Bailey destroys not only Cain but also Elliott and Sacar in TO%. Cain is about even with Sacar and both of them are better than Elliot. What bothers me is that people just repeat what they read as truth. I don’t hear much about TO’s when talking about Sacar or Elliott but it’s the main talking point about Cain and it’s not justified considering the other two guys. Play Cain more please........I’ve been saying it since last year......In all fairness, I believe Cain improved in this TO stat from last year.
Some of Sacar’s turnovers drive me crazy....same with Greg’s. Jamal (and I really like him)...his turnovers seem less forced to me which means they are unforced. Bad entry passes from top of key, while Sacar is doing it on a drive.
Better said, not all turnovers are equal.
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Marquette's team turnover rate so far this season is 18.3% per KenPom, 120th in the country. Player TO% through the first 24 games:
11.8% Brendan Bailey
14.4% Markus Howard
14.4% Sacar Anim
18.3% Theo John
20.5% Jamal Cain
23.1% Koby McEwen
23.3% Greg Elliott
23.6% Jayce Johnson
27.4% Symir Torrence
MU's TORate in Big East play is 16.6%. Player percentages through the first 12 conference games:
9.7% Sacar Anim
12.1% Brendan Bailey
12.4% Markus Howard
19.8% Greg Elliott
21.3% Koby McEwen
22.5% Theo John
24.0% Jamal Cain
25.9% Jayce Johnson
30.9% Symir Torrence
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MU's turnover rate last season was 19.3%, ranked 239th nationally per KenPom. So looks like real improvement this year.
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Would like to see Cain getting a few more opportunities. Agreed he needs to be more careful with the ball but think this will iron out when he builds confidence based on positive results.
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If you wonder how much Wojo values taking care of the ball, the player with the lowest turnover rate in Big East play (Sacar) also happens to be playing more minutes than anyone else on the team.
And the four players with the highest turnover rates (Symir, Jayce, Jamal and Theo) have played the least amount of minutes.
Obviously, a lot of different factors go into who gets court time. But it seems clear that turnovers are a pretty important factor.
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But this is what Ners does. He uses yo-yo minutes as a reason for poor production. But in reality it's the opposite. They get yo-yo minutes because they don't consistently produce.
He used to have the same complaint about Traci Carter. Who has since transferred twice - first to LaSalle in the A10 and then to Hartford in the American East, where he still can't really shoot.
For Cain to get 20+ minutes he has to be REALLY, really good. Meanwhile, Brendan (and others (have many games of 20+ minutes where they lay clunkers. Cain has 1 game of 30+ minutes all season (145 O-Rating). Here are O-Ratings from Brendan's 30+/minute clunkers: 78, 85, 42, 86.
Cain's O-Rating 20+ minutes/game descending from last night's game to beginning of season:
138
210
149
124
138
156
145
117
147
66
109
As for Traci Carter - He was manna from heaven after having had to watch Derrick Wilson play PG 33 minutes per game two years in a row. While Traci wasn't a great shooter, he made 2x Derrick's career 3 point makes in just his freshman season. Plus he was a great defender and had a 32.9% assist rate, well above any PG we've had at MU in a long time.
Lastly, the only player on this team who "consistently produces" is Markus. Koby is all over the place and it doesn't affect his minutes. Same with Sacar. Same with Brendan.
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I’m with Elon on this one. While I don’t post much at all, the few times I’ve posted these last two years we’re about the mishandling of Cain......I went to bed for the second half of last nights game so I didn’t see it. I think He’s a great player who would be playing even better had his confidence not been rocked last year. I think people see that Wojo would yank him after a TO (I admit some were boneheaded and careless) and agree with Wojos decision. That still amazes me. Tell me that Cain is the only one on this team guilty of it and you’re fooling yourself. The difference is Cain gets yanked. It’s my personal opinion that Wojo has his favorites and those favorites have a longer leash (see Joey and Bailey as examples). I’ll tell you that I personally want Cain in at the end of a tight game especially for his rebounding ability - something that gets easily overlooked.
I think people misinterpret the TO as the reason he got yanked. In reality, he was in there to buy a few extra minutes before an under -16 -12 -8 -4 timeout. It is a way to buy your starters a few extra minutes of breather without burning too much of the game clock. The turnover lead to the dead ball which lead to the timeout which brought the starter back in.
At the end of the day, any coach is going to put out the team that he/she feels is going to win the game. We might like certain players more than others but doesn't mean they are better players.
What I finding insulting is this isn't just a knock on Wojo but every member of the Marquette bench. Most assistants are the ones getting the players ready to sub in and are providing data to the head coach on what is going on. Wojo or any head coach can't do everything by himself. So what Ners is really saying his rec league scouting ability trumps the experience of Marquette's entire coaching staff. Or Wojo is just mean spirited but then Buzz would have had to been as well.
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Bailey
http://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2020&p=Brendan%20Bailey&t=Marquette
Cain
http://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2020&p=Jamal%20Cain&t=Marquette
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Same chit different username.
Does Ners find a different role player (in Cain's case...or not even role player in the case of a guy like Dawson or Carter) to latch onto with each different username he comes back with after each perma-ban?
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Ners has his windmills to tilt at. Nothing wrong with that. We all enjoy seeing a player step up. As long as it doesn't become obsessive or abusive, I enjoy his perspective.
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I don’t know about Ners, but if you look back at my minimal posts from these past 2 years, they’re about Cain. I’m not trying to insult Wojo or his staff, but rather voicing an opinion. They’re prone to mistakes like all of us are....I.e. not yanking a certain star player on our team during an OT this year where said player just didn’t have it but kept shooting regardless. To imply that Coaches and their staff know what’s best all the time means no coach’s job is in jeopardy.
I’m just saying I think we’d be better off with Cain getting more minutes. Damn it! This is why I don’t post. Even back to the ring out shots days. I got sucked in! I’ll go back to just reading.
Btw, to those that say some people only show up after losses to trash talk, you are simply wrong....or so I hope. I love reading the comments much more after a win than after a loss. Perhaps the people that post negative things are venting frustration because they ARE fans and want to see Marquette BB succeed. I think from what I saw yesterday (only saw 1st half) it was just a bad shooting day for us and Villanova couldn’t miss. That’s it. Let’s move on and get Cain more minutes please. I think it would benefit OUR team. Peace!
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I think people misinterpret the TO as the reason he got yanked. In reality, he was in there to buy a few extra minutes before an under -16 -12 -8 -4 timeout. It is a way to buy your starters a few extra minutes of breather without burning too much of the game clock. The turnover lead to the dead ball which lead to the timeout which brought the starter back in.
At the end of the day, any coach is going to put out the team that he/she feels is going to win the game. We might like certain players more than others but doesn't mean they are better players.
What I finding insulting is this isn't just a knock on Wojo but every member of the Marquette bench. Most assistants are the ones getting the players ready to sub in and are providing data to the head coach on what is going on. Wojo or any head coach can't do everything by himself. So what Ners is really saying his rec league scouting ability trumps the experience of Marquette's entire coaching staff. Or Wojo is just mean spirited but then Buzz would have had to been as well.
Well...if you don’t think 1 assistant coach Year 1 under Wojo felt Derrick Wilson shouldn’t be playing 33 minutes per game - Wojo hired a bunch of idiotic assistants.
Sure..assistants can give input, but they have ZERO authority or ability to decide who gets subbed in/out. That buck stops with the head coach. Period.
I’d think even a ball boy would know this, but perhaps you were too busy filling water bottles and rebounding balls for the players.
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Jamal PRPG! 2019(trendy new stat, I've heard): 1.5; BE conference: 0.8
Brendan PRPG! 2019: 2.3; BE conference: 3.0
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Last 4 games: 29, 13, 10, 22. Super consistent. As I said - it's been a yo-yo. Most don't function well in any role when they have zero consistency in their role, nor have any idea what will be their function any given day.
The point is you are misunderstanding his role. His role is to be a forward off the bench. He's the 7th or 8th guy on any given night. When he comes in and is making a clear difference, those minutes will go up. Like last night. When he comes in and isn't defending well, turning it over, or simply not playing as well as the starter, those minutes will go down. That's the nature of being a bench player. Not everyone can be a starter. Bailey starts because he is a better defender and one of the most offensively efficient players in the Big East.
This isn't a Wojo thing, it's a basketball thing. Consider other teams & minute allocations for some Big East bench players the last 6 games:
Shavar Reynolds, Seton Hall: 14/17/9/20/24/26
Cole Swider, Villanova: 20/31/25/11/5/26
Henry Baddley, Butler: 31/31/19/8/7/24
How about other top coaches:
Jack White, Duke: 18/23/14/9/12/3
Darius Perry, Louisville: 26/23/5/15/19/15
Kyle Ahrens, Michigan State: DNP/8/15/5/19/16
Everyone there is wavering between single digits and upper-teens to twenties. It changes every night depending on how well they are playing, how well the other guys on the team are playing, and what the coaches see in the game. That's just how basketball works. If you aren't a Markus Howard, Sacar Anim type that has earned max minutes every night, you aren't guaranteed a consistent role because the game is never the same. So unless you think that Kevin Willard, Jay Wright, LaVall Jordan, Mike Krzyzewski, Chris Mack, and Tom Izzo are equally inconsistent to Wojo, I'm really not sure what you're trying to assert.
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Tamu compared Bailey to Cain and mentioned something along the lines that while Cain beats Bailey in most stats, gets “destroyed” when it comes to TO% (sorry if I inaccurately summarizes it but I believe I got it somewhat right). I don’t think the “Destroyed” part is true. I think many have become conditioned to think that do to posts as opposed to actual stats. I looked at this last year and didn’t see it as more outstanding than any other player on a per minute played basis. But then again I didn’t actually punch the numbers. Does anyone have the TO% of our entire team because I’d love to see that. While I mentioned that Cain does turn it over more than I’d like to see, I think it’s blown out of proportion and then people that hear/read it tend to latch on to it as truth. Maybe Cain does lead the team in TO% but I’d like to see those numbers for this year and last. Then if I’m right, I’d like to know how come everyone dogs Cain instead of the real offenders. It’s understandable if the ones who lead in TO% handle the ball a greater % of the time, so I understand that point. But if someone’s got those numbers, I’d appreciate seeing them.
I wasn't just talking out my butt. I looked at the actual stats. Bailey's TO% is much lower than Cain's (i.e. destroys him in TO%). The reason people "dog" him about turnovers is because he is the second-worst non-guard in that category.
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Well...if you don’t think 1 assistant coach Year 1 under Wojo felt Derrick Wilson shouldn’t be playing 33 minutes per game - Wojo hired a bunch of idiotic assistants.
Sure..assistants can give input, but they have ZERO authority or ability to decide who gets subbed in/out. That buck stops with the head coach. Period.
I’d think even a ball boy would know this, but perhaps you were too busy filling water bottles and rebounding balls for the players.
You already tried to use that one two years ago so I will remind you I won two league A intramural basketball championships, third year finalist, and an intramural league League A championship in soccer at MU with a year abroad so I have played at the “highest levels of basketball.” Threw in a Gus Macker title. If it wasn’t for Wojo in his short shorts and floor slapping defense during his playing days at Duke turning off NBA scouts I would be finishing up a 20+Year all nba career right now. Damn you Wojo.
So not one assistant said to Buzz why are you playing Wilson 30.8 minutes a game with magic Dawson on the bench? So now Buzz hired a bunch of idiots too?
Ners sees two of Marquette benches’ scouting/coaching abilities as less than what he only can see on tv. If you have a second Gus macker title, I will concede to your basketball acumen is better than mine and Wojo’s.
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The point is you are misunderstanding his role. His role is to be a forward off the bench. He's the 7th or 8th guy on any given night. When he comes in and is making a clear difference, those minutes will go up. Like last night. When he comes in and isn't defending well, turning it over, or simply not playing as well as the starter, those minutes will go down. That's the nature of being a bench player. Not everyone can be a starter. Bailey starts because he is a better defender and one of the most offensively efficient players in the Big East.
This isn't a Wojo thing, it's a basketball thing. Consider other teams & minute allocations for some Big East bench players the last 6 games:
Shavar Reynolds, Seton Hall: 14/17/9/20/24/26
Cole Swider, Villanova: 20/31/25/11/5/26
Henry Baddley, Butler: 31/31/19/8/7/24
How about other top coaches:
Jack White, Duke: 18/23/14/9/12/3
Darius Perry, Louisville: 26/23/5/15/19/15
Kyle Ahrens, Michigan State: DNP/8/15/5/19/16
Everyone there is wavering between single digits and upper-teens to twenties. It changes every night depending on how well they are playing, how well the other guys on the team are playing, and what the coaches see in the game. That's just how basketball works. If you aren't a Markus Howard, Sacar Anim type that has earned max minutes every night, you aren't guaranteed a consistent role because the game is never the same. So unless you think that Kevin Willard, Jay Wright, LaVall Jordan, Mike Krzyzewski, Chris Mack, and Tom Izzo are equally inconsistent to Wojo, I'm really not sure what you're trying to assert.
Fair post Brew. I respect what you’ve written here.
Ultimately I’m not of the belief that Bailey is a clear cut better player. Bailey has been given the starting role as you point out, and along with it a much longer leash.
IMO Jamal’s talent and ability ultimately aren’t being maximized.
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When all else fails, talk about dunking on people in high school and bring up Derrick Wilson. And ignore that two separate head coaches made the exact same decisions.
Sad.
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I don’t know about Ners, but if you look back at my minimal posts from these past 2 years, they’re about Cain. I’m not trying to insult Wojo or his staff, but rather voicing an opinion. They’re prone to mistakes like all of us are....I.e. not yanking a certain star player on our team during an OT this year where said player just didn’t have it but kept shooting regardless. To imply that Coaches and their staff know what’s best all the time means no coach’s job is in jeopardy.
I’m just saying I think we’d be better off with Cain getting more minutes. Damn it! This is why I don’t post. Even back to the ring out shots days. I got sucked in! I’ll go back to just reading.
Btw, to those that say some people only show up after losses to trash talk, you are simply wrong....or so I hope. I love reading the comments much more after a win than after a loss. Perhaps the people that post negative things are venting frustration because they ARE fans and want to see Marquette BB succeed. I think from what I saw yesterday (only saw 1st half) it was just a bad shooting day for us and Villanova couldn’t miss. That’s it. Let’s move on and get Cain more minutes please. I think it would benefit OUR team. Peace!
I wasn’t referencing you on the insulted part. I think everyone can voice their opinions on a topic.
I would love for every player to get 40 minutes a game but it can’t happen. Coaches make tough decisions on who is going to play or not.
The deciding criteria is matchups. When people talk about game planning the look at a perceived opponent weakness and plan how to exploit it. Those players who can do that will get extended run. Those that can’t or open up a weakness get a shorter leash.
For example, I would not play Cain against a hard pressing defensive team as much because his high stance with the dribble exposes him to steals and turnovers.
I would play him against less athletic less defensive pressure teams and give him and opportunity to stretch the defense.
If he could put it all together he would be great. He just hasn’t yet.
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You already tried to use that one two years ago so I will remind you I won two league A intramural basketball championships, third year finalist, and an intramural league League A championship in soccer at MU with a year abroad so I have played at the “highest levels of basketball.” Threw in a Gus Macker title. If it wasn’t for Wojo in his short shorts and floor slapping defense during his playing days at Duke turning off NBA scouts I would be finishing up a 20+Year all nba career right now. Damn you Wojo.
So not one assistant said to Buzz why are you playing Wilson 30.8 minutes a game with magic Dawson on the bench? So now Buzz hired a bunch of idiots too?
Ners sees two of Marquette benches’ scouting/coaching abilities as less than what he only can see on tv. If you have a second Gus macker title, I will concede to your basketball acumen is better than mine and Wojo’s.
Intramural titles? Seriously? Soccer titles? Almost as awesome as volleyball titles. Gus Macker wins?! Impressive pedigree no doubt.
Buzz didn’t give a crap his last year at MU. Further, Buzz didn’t have Duane Wilson or Matt Carlino as options.
Dawson as a freshman may have been a turnover machine, but he was a better option than Derrick. And he’s made NBA G-League roster three years on a row. He had some talent/ability. The “results” with Derrick running PG 30 minutes per game speak for themselves.
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When all else fails, talk about dunking on people in high school and bring up Derrick Wilson. And ignore that two separate head coaches made the exact same decisions.
Sad.
Where did I reference dunking on people here? Try to contribute to the talking points. Bring some stats, data, something, anything, beyond your sad, tired, “joke” about me dunking on people in high school for about the 150th time.
Be gowne, Patrick.
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I wasn’t referencing you on the insulted part. I think everyone can voice their opinions on a topic.
I would love for every player to get 40 minutes a game but it can’t happen. Coaches make tough decisions on who is going to play or not.
The deciding criteria is matchups. When people talk about game planning the look at a perceived opponent weakness and plan how to exploit it. Those players who can do that will get extended run. This that can’t or open up a weakness get a shorter leash.
For example, I would not play Cain against a hard pressing defensive team as much because his high stance with the dribble exposes him to steals and turnovers.
I would play him against less athletic less defensive pressure teams and give him and opportunity to stretch the defense.
If he could put it all together he would be great. He just hasn’t yet.
Thanks for this. Excellent analysis.
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The point is you are misunderstanding his role. His role is to be a forward off the bench. He's the 7th or 8th guy on any given night. When he comes in and is making a clear difference, those minutes will go up. Like last night. When he comes in and isn't defending well, turning it over, or simply not playing as well as the starter, those minutes will go down. That's the nature of being a bench player. Not everyone can be a starter. Bailey starts because he is a better defender and one of the most offensively efficient players in the Big East.
This isn't a Wojo thing, it's a basketball thing. Consider other teams & minute allocations for some Big East bench players the last 6 games:
Shavar Reynolds, Seton Hall: 14/17/9/20/24/26
Cole Swider, Villanova: 20/31/25/11/5/26
Henry Baddley, Butler: 31/31/19/8/7/24
How about other top coaches:
Jack White, Duke: 18/23/14/9/12/3
Darius Perry, Louisville: 26/23/5/15/19/15
Kyle Ahrens, Michigan State: DNP/8/15/5/19/16
Everyone there is wavering between single digits and upper-teens to twenties. It changes every night depending on how well they are playing, how well the other guys on the team are playing, and what the coaches see in the game. That's just how basketball works. If you aren't a Markus Howard, Sacar Anim type that has earned max minutes every night, you aren't guaranteed a consistent role because the game is never the same. So unless you think that Kevin Willard, Jay Wright, LaVall Jordan, Mike Krzyzewski, Chris Mack, and Tom Izzo are equally inconsistent to Wojo, I'm really not sure what you're trying to assert.
Best post in this entire thread. Thanks, brewski.
Almost good enough to get Nrs to stand down. Almost.
If only our coach knew as much about basketball, and the players he sees for multiple hours every day, as some anonymous interwebs dude does.
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Bailey
http://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2020&p=Brendan%20Bailey&t=Marquette
Cain
http://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2020&p=Jamal%20Cain&t=Marquette
Drop the mic
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Bailey
http://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2020&p=Brendan%20Bailey&t=Marquette
Cain
http://www.barttorvik.com/playerstat.php?year=2020&p=Jamal%20Cain&t=Marquette
Just a numbers nerd who never played the game.
If only we had a coach who had played the game, then he could understand how to effectively coach guys. But since Wojo never played high school ball and that’s reserved for only the best of the best out there he has no idea what allows players to succeed.
The answer is MAX MINUTES.
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Thanks for this. Excellent analysis.
Thanks.
Just to add. final four teams create matchup problems that others have to plan against. That is why people think seton hall is a final four contender.
7’2 center with defensive shutdown capabilities
Potential POY candidate who can light it up from anywhere
A point guard who is a defensive player and solid offensive contributor as second scoring option
Good group of role players
Multiple matchup problems.
Markus is our matchup problem. If we weren’t as good of three point shooters I would almost go to a box and one to defend against us. With Bailey, Anim and Koby all being decent+ three point shooters that opens up a lot of open shoots. My best on ball defender gets him. If I am Seton Hall that is McKnight. Powell might get him on the occasional switch. I play high and tight to the three point line. If he blows by me have him worry about getting the ball over Gill.
Theo - not a matchup problem
Anim - containable problem. Have Powell guard him or Koby. Let them wear themselves out chasing Powell on the other end.
Bailey - all around versatility but containable. Rhoden or Cale. In the last matchup, he was 0pher so problem approach him the same way
Koby - containable but could get hot.
Probably not the focus of the game plan but if these guys go off it just might not be your day.
Elliot
Jayce
Cain - got 9 minutes and contributed 1 personal foul. Seton hall is a solid defensive team so problem not his strength right now.
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Just a numbers nerd who never played the game.
If only we had a coach who had played the game, then he could understand how to effectively coach guys. But since Wojo never played high school ball and that’s reserved for only the best of the best out there he has no idea what allows players to succeed.
The answer is MAX MINUTES.
But I don't think Wojo can dunk...
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Thanks.
Just to add. final four teams create matchup problems that others have to plan against. That is why people think seton hall is a final four contender.
7’2 center with defensive shutdown capabilities
Potential POY candidate who can light it up from anywhere
A point guard who is a defensive player and solid offensive contributor as second scoring option
Good group of role players
Multiple matchup problems.
Markus is our matchup problem. If we weren’t as good of three point shooters I would almost go to a box and one to defend against us. With Bailey, Anim and Koby all being decent+ three point shooters that opens up a lot of open shoots. My best on ball defender gets him. If I am Seton Hall that is McKnight. Powell might get him on the occasional switch. I play high and tight to the three point line. If he blows by me have him worry about getting the ball over Gill.
Theo - not a matchup problem
Anim - containable problem. Have Powell guard him or Koby. Let them wear themselves out chasing Powell on the other end.
Bailey - all around versatility but containable. Rhoden or Cale. In the last matchup, he was 0pher so problem approach him the same way
Koby - containable but could get hot.
Probably not the focus of the game plan but if these guys go off it just might not be your day.
Elliot
Jayce
Cain - got 9 minutes and contributed 1 personal foul. Seton hall is a solid defensive team so problem not his strength right now.
I am not agreeing or disagreeing, I don't know. I would point out that there have been plenty of very good teams that had quality players at most or all positions that made them as a whole hard to contain. Have to guard everyone.
We are at the point where pretty much any player on the floor for us can score, unlike many teams we've had over the years where we had at least one player on the floor all the time that was not a threat to score or could not defend. This team everyone can defend (with some limits) and score (with some limits - mostly big men away from the hoop - not a threat on a pick and pop or pick and roll).
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Fair post Brew. I respect what you’ve written here.
Ultimately I’m not of the belief that Bailey is a clear cut better player. Bailey has been given the starting role as you point out, and along with it a much longer leash.
IMO Jamal’s talent and ability ultimately aren’t being maximized.
I appreciate you finally acknowledging that the facts (as presented by brewski) go against your "belief." It's a big step on your part.
The key words in this post of yours are "Bailey has been given the starting role as you point out."
1. Why do you conclude that Bailey was given anything? Is it impossible for you to fathom that Bailey actually earned the starting role? Were you at all of the offseason workouts and conditioning sessions? Did you analyze all of the action on the summer trip to Europe? Were you at every practice and workout from Marquette Madness to the start of the season? Have you been at every practice and workout since the season started? Have you analyzed every frame of video from games this season? I bet Wojo and his assistants have done all of the above and maybe, just maybe, Wojo made an educated decision to start Bailey and to keep starting him, all the while willingly giving Cain plenty of minutes when Bailey is struggling and/or when Cain is playing well and/or both. Or, we could just say to heck with all that and go with the "belief" of an anonymous interwebs dude that Cain, and not Bailey, somehow earned the starting nod.
2. Brew did not "point out" that "Bailey has been given" anything. He said, "Bailey starts because he is a better defender and one of the most offensively efficient players in the Big East." In other words, Bailey earned the starting job.
And this just in: All coaches at all levels in all sports give "longer leashes" to those they believe have earned those longer leashes over time. Do you really think that if Cain had proven himself as the better option, Wojo would be giving Bailey more playing time (and a longer leash) just because? Because what? He likes Thurl Bailey? He likes Pearl Bailey? He likes Beetle Bailey?
Is it your theory that Wojo is willingly sacrificing potential wins because he "likes" one player and "dislikes" another? Indeed, if that's your theory, Wojo just crushed it in our most recent game, as he benched Bailey for a long stretch and went with Cain, who was playing better. Imagine that!
Four years ago, Wojo benched Fischer for Heldt. Last season, he benched Heldt for Theo and Morrow; despite Heldt obviously being one of Wojo's all-time favorites, Heldt just about never played. And this season, he benched Morrow for Johnson. And now he's what? Afraid to give some of an obviously inferior Bailey's playing time to an obviously superior Cain? Really?
Again, I appreciate that you came right out and admitted that all of this is your opinion (because the facts aren't working for you).
In the opinion of most others, Wojo knows more about his team than you do.
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How in the world could Jay Wright possibly be so dumb as to not understand he needs to be more consistent with his minute distribution for Brandon Slater? 16 minutes 1 game, 4 minutes the next, 1 minute the next, 14 minutes next. Totally screwing with Slater's mind. Jay doesn't understand he makes it impossible for Slater to find a rhythm.
Is Coach K just intentionally screwing with Javin DeLaurier? 14 minutes one game, 9 the next, 14 the next, 4 the next. WTF? Talk about an impossible situation for a kid.
Why in the world would Sam Hauser ever want to play for a coach who has no clue that giving inconsistent minutes to a kid screws with their mind and doesn't allow them to perform like Tony Bennett is doing with Francisco Caffaro? 7 minutes one night, 21 the next, 14 the next, 9 the next, 4 the next. You kidding me?!
Avery Benson played a huge roll in helping Chris Beard take down (at the time) #1 Louisville with 10 points in 22 minutes. His next 3 games 14 minutes, 3 minutes, 4 minutes. WTF?! He'd be Dirk if Beard had a clue how to distribute minutes and knew how much he was messing with his mind!
Would Johnny Juzang be the top pick in the NBA Draft if Cal wasn't so dumb to fluctuate his minutes? I mean, 8, 15, 15, 5, 24, 10 in the last 6 games for him. No wonder he isn't being looked at as the next Derrick Rose!
(Should I go on?)
Seriously, this argument is so, so, so stupid. The nature of being a backup is your minutes fluctuate. Some nights you might not see the court at all because the 2 guys you might replace don't get in foul trouble and play well. Other nights you might bet 30 minutes because every time the guy you replace checks in he picks up another foul. Literally every coach for all of eternity has multiple players who get inconsistent minutes from one night to the next. Not one coach in the history of basketball has the same "leash" for every player on the roster. A turnover by Markus won't, and shouldn't be, treated the same as a turnover by Jamal. You're lying if you claim there's that gives every kid the same amount of minutes every game and treats every mistake the exact same between his players. Anybody who has played the game knows this.
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For me, it comes down to this. I like Cain. I like Bailey. I like all of the players who choose to stay. I think Bailey has shown himself to be more of a complete player than Cain. I accept that there are days when Cain is going to play better than Bailey. I also trust that on those days, Wojo is going to ride Cain. I celebrate and appreciate that Cain played a very nice second half against Nova when 4 of the starting 5 were benched for poor play. I hope he continues to play like that. It would help the team.
Starting a crusade about it reeks of back-up QB syndrome. A common malady among fans in all sports. The back up must be better. Our coach is the dumbest coach ever in whatever sport we happen to be talking about. If only our coach managed his 9 man roster the way I want him to, the team would be better than 17-7, 7-5, because.....blahbity blahbity blahbity.
But, hey, it is a message board and we have time to kill, so why not. Thank you, ners, for starting this thread.
It reminds me that a year ago I was arguing that Joey had hit the freshman wall and Wojo needed to play Bailey and Cain more. With the rationale that we had to try to keep the Hausers fresh down the stretch.
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When bailey plays poorly, which unfortunately is too often, jamal is a ready and willing backup that sometimes plays well, simetimes he doesnt.
When bailey plays well/aggressively he is really good.
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Starting a crusade about it reeks of back-up QB syndrome. A common malady among fans in all sports. The back up must be better.
Yep.
Believe it or not, there were many Panthers fans who actually thought Derek Anderson was better than Cam Newton.
Facts be damned.
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Yep.
Believe it or not, there were many Panthers fans who actually thought Derek Anderson was better than Cam Newton.
Facts be damned.
He was better than an INJURED Newton....and the facts bare that out. Better QB rating than Injured Newton, actually won games when Newton was not able to propel team to any while injured. Facts hurt.
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When bailey plays poorly, which unfortunately is too often, jamal is a ready and willing backup that sometimes plays well, simetimes he doesnt.
When bailey plays well/aggressively he is really good.
This is how I feel. On balance, I think Bailey is better, but that doesn't mean he is better every game.
I just think people need to trust the coach with this and not dredge up player decisions from six years ago.
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This is how I feel. On balance, I think Bailey is better, but that doesn't mean he is better every game.
I just think people need to trust the coach with this and not dredge up player decisions from six years ago.
Yep.
Believe it or not, there were many Panthers fans who actually thought Derek Anderson was better than Cam Newton.
Facts be damned.
You’d have to really tilt at windmills to think Derek Anderson or Josh Allen is better than Cam Newton. Can’t believe there is anyone out there stupid enough to make that argument but I’m always surprised
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This is how I feel. On balance, I think Bailey is better, but that doesn't mean he is better every game.
I just think people need to trust the coach with this and not dredge up player decisions from six years ago.
Here is the thing. Ners, for whatever reason, was so emotionally invested in JaJuan, Deonte, and Dawson, that how they were handled by Buzz and then Wojo completely infused his opinion of Buzz's last year and then Wojo. His mind was made up about Wojo in December of 2014 when two of the three left. It still galls him and it still infuses his perception of every decision Wojo makes.
Nobody here is going to change his mind. No argument exists. With time, if Wojo proves successful, maybe ners will evolve, but he will always believe that Wojo messed up with three players that Ners was fond of. And any thing that is less successful will only reinforce that perception. Can't be changed. Accept, work around.
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Having Dawson brought up in this thread out of the blue, pretty much told me who Ners is posting as now. I normally don't follow who is who on name changes or pick up on it. But, anyone who brings up Dawson first, that he is in the G-League as proof of how good he was... out of the blue, well....
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This is how I feel. On balance, I think Bailey is better, but that doesn't mean he is better every game.
I just think people need to trust the coach with this and not dredge up player decisions from six years ago.
+ tax
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You’d have to really tilt at windmills to think Derek Anderson ... is better than Cam Newton. Can’t believe there is anyone out there stupid enough to make that argument but I’m always surprised
Yep, and the Derek Anderson fans were touting him over Cam when Cam was healthy and a Pro Bowl regular. I'm talking 5 and 6 and 7 years ago.
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He was better than an INJURED Newton....and the facts bare that out. Better QB rating than Injured Newton, actually won games when Newton was not able to propel team to any while injured. Facts hurt.
So, I think you jumped at this without reading.
MU82 said "Derek anderson" and also talked about "Panthers fans".
Your argument earlier this season was about Allen and you aren't a Panthers fan, afaik
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Here is the thing. Ners, for whatever reason, was so emotionally invested in JaJuan, Deonte, and Dawson, that how they were handled by Buzz and then Wojo completely infused his opinion of Buzz's last year and then Wojo. His mind was made up about Wojo in December of 2014 when two of the three left. It still galls him and it still infuses his perception of every decision Wojo makes.
Nobody here is going to change his mind. No argument exists. With time, if Wojo proves successful, maybe ners will evolve, but he will always believe that Wojo messed up with three players that Ners was fond of. And any thing that is less successful will only reinforce that perception. Can't be changed. Accept, work around.
Love the phrase here; "With time, if Wojo proves successful..."
FFS, he already has 6 years. Back to the old fallback excuse, Wojo needs a lifetime contract.
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Ffs, he will have won between 105-110 games in years 2-6. Averaging 21-22 wins a year over a 5 year stretch is considered successful most places.
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82, Tower - Brew hit the nail on the head with his post about Cain being a bench player, and thus why his leash is shorter/needs to play really well to get minutes.
Ultimately, I don't believe Bailey is better than Cain - which is where my frustration comes in. I suspect if the roles were reversed and Cain had the long leash, and Brendan the short leash - Cain's numbers would be much better than Brendan trying to prove himself in 2-4 minutes of run. Think Wojo has gotten it wrong multiples times at MU as it relates to who his best players are/starters should be.
Bailey came in and was started his first 3 games at MU last year - perhaps he "earned" that based on how he played in practice. However, Cain had a pretty good freshman season.
Cain has just gotten back to the form he had as a freshman. Not uncommon in Wojo's tenure for players to regress/lose confidence - Duane Wilson, Cohen, Cheatham, Morrow, to name a few.
I've complimented Wojo multiple times this year. Hated how he coached Years 1 & 2 particularly - and yes that colored my perception moving forward. However, he's improved some. The team is exceeding my expectations this season - for the first time in his 6 years as head coach.
Guess I shouldn't have expected the guy to be a quick study, as he's been the classic grinder. Let's hope he proves out the parable of the turtle vs the hare. Will be interesting to see what Wojo is able to achieve going forward without Markus - which was ultimately the "joke" of the Wojo's Playbook "banner."
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I am glad you are back and I am enjoying your perspective. I think we agree about one thing. Cain AND Bailey did not get enough minutes in 18-19 as the Hausers wore down. I, too, liked Cain as a freshman and hoped he would progress, but his sophomore season was basically a waste. I thought Bailey showed great promise in limited opportunities last year.
This year, I think Bailey has shown more, but Wojo has given plenty of run to Cain when Bailey has played poorly. What Cain has done in those opportunities has been erratic. I, too, enjoy watching them on the floor together. But the structure of the roster precludes them from doing that for extended stretches. Neither can guard a Big East 5. To play them together at forward takes minutes away from Sacar, Koby, or Markus. If they are both in foul trouble, then Sacar, Greg, Koby, Symir end up getting posted up by 6'8.
But the good news is that Cain has shown enough that you will champion him.
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Ffs, he will have won between 105-110 games in years 2-6. Averaging 21-22 wins a year over a 5 year stretch is considered successful most places.
Cherry picking. What about last season's meltdown. What about his inability to deal with Hausergate. Those are just 2 recent examples that you conveniently forget. Could go on, such as inability to win a dance game, inability to do well in BEast tourney, etc., FFS. But to you and your slobbering Wojo bias it matters not. Your idea of success is your opinion
If you look at Wojos overall performance for 6 years objectively it has been average. And he has the best resources in the league. Not a stellar success, hence according to you he needs at least another 6 years to better evaluate. After all he is still a work in progress and has us trending upward as evidenced by his record in the league this year all with the best resources.
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82, Tower - Brew hit the nail on the head with his post about Cain being a bench player, and thus why his leash is shorter/needs to play really well to get minutes.
Ultimately, I don't believe Bailey is better than Cain - which is where my frustration comes in. I suspect if the roles were reversed and Cain had the long leash, and Brendan the short leash - Cain's numbers would be much better than Brendan trying to prove himself in 2-4 minutes of run. Think Wojo has gotten it wrong multiples times at MU as it relates to who his best players are/starters should be.
Bailey came in and was started his first 3 games at MU last year - perhaps he "earned" that based on how he played in practice. However, Cain had a pretty good freshman season.
Cain has just gotten back to the form he had as a freshman. Not uncommon in Wojo's tenure for players to regress/lose confidence - Duane Wilson, Cohen, Cheatham, Morrow, to name a few.
I've complimented Wojo multiple times this year. Hated how he coached Years 1 & 2 particularly - and yes that colored my perception moving forward. However, he's improved some. The team is exceeding my expectations this season - for the first time in his 6 years as head coach.
Guess I shouldn't have expected the guy to be a quick study, as he's been the classic grinder. Let's hope he proves out the parable of the turtle vs the hare. Will be interesting to see what Wojo is able to achieve going forward without Markus - which was ultimately the "joke" of the Wojo's Playbook "banner."
The coaching staff sees these guys every day and have made this decision. If Cain thought he was better and not receiving the minutes he deserved, he would likely leave.
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Cherry picking. What about last season's meltdown. What about his inability to deal with Hausergate. Those are just 2 recent examples that you conveniently forget. Could go on, such as inability to win a dance game, inability to do well in BEast tourney, etc., FFS. But to you and your slobbering Wojo bias it matters not. Your idea of success is your opinion
If you look at Wojos overall performance for 6 years objectively it has been average. And he has the best resources in the league. Not a stellar success, hence according to you he needs at least another 6 years to better evaluate. After all he is still a work in progress and has us trending upward as evidenced by his record in the league this year all with the best resources.
Aren’t you cherry picking? Only the meltdown counts in your world, not the rest? Lol
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Cherry picking. What about last season's meltdown. What about his inability to deal with Hausergate. Those are just 2 recent examples that you conveniently forget. Could go on, such as inability to win a dance game, inability to do well in BEast tourney, etc., FFS. But to you and your slobbering Wojo bias it matters not. Your idea of success is your opinion
If you look at Wojos overall performance for 6 years objectively it has been average. And he has the best resources in the league. Not a stellar success, hence according to you he needs at least another 6 years to better evaluate. After all he is still a work in progress and has us trending upward as evidenced by his record in the league this year all with the best resources.
Willie,
How do you know he did not deal with Hausergate? Perhaps them leaving was him dealing with it. I have no idea and at this point don't care. This years team is currently positioned well in the BE. Let's see if we have a better finish than last season.
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Jamal started last season with 15, 19, 16, 15, and 15 minutes. He provided basically nothing positive beyond his defensive rebounding, and his minutes fell off after that.
We get it. If Wojo just upped those to 40 minutes every night and waited it out through the regular season we would’ve seen Jamal become Michael Jordan and even though we might’ve been outside the NCAA Tournament, Cain would’ve carried us to the BET title and then an NCAA Championship.
Or maybe Cain got his chance to earn the same (or more) minutes he did as a freshman and didn’t perform, so he lost those minutes. Weird.
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Your biases blind you to the big picture that maybe 5 programs in the country fire coaches averaging 21-22 over a 5 year stretch. It simply doesn't happen at power 6 conference schools without a scandal. If MU runs him, he has another power 6 team hire him in a week and tout his record when they do so.
Take a step back and look at who gets hired and fired. Georgia was elated to land Crean. TAMU fell over themselves to get Buzz. UCLA celebrated Cronin. IU settled for Dayton's coach. Look around. Do the math. 105-110 wins in years 2-6 is what the vast majority of programs aspire to.
Yep, needs to win some postseason games. Hausergate? Let them walk. If there was actually a letter, celebrate their departure. Sure didn't negatively affect recruiting.
I think Wojo is Crean without Wade. Solid coach. Still young, still improving, still not at what I think his ceiling will be.
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Wojo is not a solid coach, sorry. His teams have no identity on either end of the court, or with intangibles.
Wednesday’s loss they looked so bad on offense because there was no off the ball movement. It was just jack up a three or someone, mostly Markus, try to take his man one on one. Then the final 10-12 minutes they played off each other, moved and cut without the ball, and got themselves back in the game. Meanwhile, Nova was playing team offense all game.
But the question becomes, how is it after 6 years they don’t have a discernible offensive system in place to fall back on and prevent that from happening so you don’t fall into a trap of playing individual basketball?
I’m not writing off Wojo, but I just don’t see him being anything more than ordinary at best and results of previous 5 years, especially late season performances, back up my opinion.
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Wojo is not a solid coach, sorry. His teams have no identity on either end of the court, or with intangibles.
Wednesday’s loss they looked so bad on offense because there was no off the ball movement. It was just jack up a three or someone, mostly Markus, try to take his man one on one. Then the final 10-12 minutes they played off each other, moved and cut without the ball, and got themselves back in the game. Meanwhile, Nova was playing team offense all game.
But the question becomes, how is it after 6 years they don’t have a discernible offensive system in place to fall back on and prevent that from happening so you don’t fall into a trap of playing individual basketball?
I’m not writing off Wojo, but I just don’t see him being anything more than ordinary at best and results of previous 5 years back up my opinion.
Do it again with MU destroying Villanova and Butler at home........
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So he gets credit for his team falling behind but not for them coming back and making it a one-possession game with the ball in the final 15 seconds?
We could win a national title this year and we'll still hear "Wojo got lucky Markus got hot," "It's not that impressive because we didn't beat a higher seed until the Final Four," or "but how will he win in the future without this senior class?"
The idea that we have no offensive identity when we have the 17th ranked offense in the country & 2nd in the conference is beyond ridiculous. Especially when the last 4 years have been ranked 8/12/32/17. The rest of the Big East coaches must be really effing stupid if they can't stop us with "no discernable offensive system."
Give me a damn break. Do you know how many other coaches have had top-32 offenses each of the past 4 years? Just 6: John Calipari, Bill Self, Mike Krzyzweski, Jay Wright, Chris Mack, & Randy Bennett. Either Wojo is a really good offensive coach or there are about 345 really really terrible offensive coaches out there.
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So he gets credit for his team falling behind but not for them coming back and making it a one-possession game with the ball in the final 15 seconds?
We could win a national title this year and we'll still hear "Wojo got lucky Markus got hot," "It's not that impressive because we didn't beat a higher seed until the Final Four," or "but how will he win in the future without this senior class?"
The idea that we have no offensive identity when we have the 17th ranked offense in the country & 2nd in the conference is beyond ridiculous. Especially when the last 4 years have been ranked 8/12/32/17. The rest of the Big East coaches must be really effing stupid if they can't stop us with "no discernable offensive system."
Give me a damn break. Do you know how many other coaches have had top-32 offenses each of the past 4 years? Just 6: John Calipari, Bill Self, Mike Krzyzweski, Jay Wright, Chris Mack, & Randy Bennett. Either Wojo is a really good offensive coach or there are about 345 really really terrible offensive coaches out there.
There is no room for facts on scoop
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Wojo is not a solid coach, sorry. His teams have no identity on either end of the court, or with intangibles.
Wednesday’s loss they looked so bad on offense because there was no off the ball movement. It was just jack up a three or someone, mostly Markus, try to take his man one on one. Then the final 10-12 minutes they played off each other, moved and cut without the ball, and got themselves back in the game. Meanwhile, Nova was playing team offense all game.
But the question becomes, how is it after 6 years they don’t have a discernible offensive system in place to fall back on and prevent that from happening so you don’t fall into a trap of playing individual basketball?
I’m not writing off Wojo, but I just don’t see him being anything more than ordinary at best and results of previous 5 years, especially late season performances, back up my opinion.
Marquette's offense is the 17th best offense in the country this year, was 32nd last year, was 12th the year before, and was 8th the year before. Using Marquette's offense to prove Wojo stinks is...odd.
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Marquette's offense is the 17th best offense in the country this year, was 32nd last year, was 12th the year before, and was 8th the year before. Using Marquette's offense to prove Wojo stinks is...odd.
Thank you
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So he gets credit for his team falling behind but not for them coming back and making it a one-possession game with the ball in the final 15 seconds?
We could win a national title this year and we'll still hear "Wojo got lucky Markus got hot," "It's not that impressive because we didn't beat a higher seed until the Final Four," or "but how will he win in the future without this senior class?"
The idea that we have no offensive identity when we have the 17th ranked offense in the country & 2nd in the conference is beyond ridiculous. Especially when the last 4 years have been ranked 8/12/32/17. The rest of the Big East coaches must be really effing stupid if they can't stop us with "no discernable offensive system."
Give me a damn break. Do you know how many other coaches have had top-32 offenses each of the past 4 years? Just 6: John Calipari, Bill Self, Mike Krzyzweski, Jay Wright, Chris Mack, & Randy Bennett. Either Wojo is a really good offensive coach or there are about 345 really really terrible offensive coaches out there.
If I wasn’t giving Wojo credit, I wouldn’t have even mentioned the run.
I described our offense against Villanova for what it was. We were easy to guard for way too much of the game, and it was unacceptably poor.
Sorry that ruffles you feathers. If our offense has been so great under Wojo, and offensive rankings tell the whole story, how do you explain zero NCAA wins, two appearances only, and an epic meltdown last March where Nova backed into the regular season championship. At least rankings will help you feel better that everything is just dandy.
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Amazing that people say we don't have enough talent and have terrible coaching, yet we'll make our 3rd NCAA tournament in 4 years.
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If I wasn’t giving Wojo credit, I wouldn’t have even mentioned the run.
I described our offense against Villanova for what it was. We were easy to guard for way too much of the game, and it was unacceptably poor.
Sorry that ruffles you feathers. If our offense has been so great under Wojo, and offensive rankings tell the whole story, how do you explain zero NCAA wins, two appearances only, and an epic meltdown last March where Nova backed into the regular season championship. At least rankings will help you feel better that everything is just dandy.
Aka “My statement was very easily proven wrong so now I’m going to make a new argument and say you’re just a sleeper.”
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Marquette's offense is the 17th best offense in the country this year, was 32nd last year, was 12th the year before, and was 8th the year before. Using Marquette's offense to prove Wojo stinks is...odd.
If it would have been less than awful most of Wednesday’s game, we probably win it. We still had a chance the last minute in spite of all the problems. And again begs the question, how does that happen? It was way more than just an off night shooting as previously stated.
What’s going to happen to our wonderful offensive rankings when we don’t have the most prolific scorer in school history anymore? A guy that score 20 without breaking a sweat.
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If I wasn’t giving Wojo credit, I wouldn’t have even mentioned the run.
I described our offense against Villanova for what it was. We were easy to guard for way too much of the game, and it was unacceptably poor.
Sorry that ruffles you feathers. If our offense has been so great under Wojo, and offensive rankings tell the whole story, how do you explain zero NCAA wins, two appearances only, and an epic meltdown last March where Nova backed into the regular season championship. At least rankings will help you feel better that everything is just dandy.
How do you explain zero wins....we played two better teams that day. That’s how. Weird that it has been two appearances in the last three years...but your agenda rings loudly.
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If it would have been less than awful most of Wednesday’s game, we probably win it. We still had a chance the last minute in spite of all the problems. And again begs the question, how does that happen? It was way more than just an off night shooting as previously stated.
What’s going to happen to our wonderful offensive rankings when we don’t have the most prolific scorer in school history anymore? A guy that score 20 without breaking a sweat.
The offense got us plenty of open looks which we didn’t hit. Watch the game again. The coaching staff cannot make shots for players.
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So he gets credit for his team falling behind but not for them coming back and making it a one-possession game with the ball in the final 15 seconds?
We could win a national title this year and we'll still hear "Wojo got lucky Markus got hot," "It's not that impressive because we didn't beat a higher seed until the Final Four," or "but how will he win in the future without this senior class?"
The idea that we have no offensive identity when we have the 17th ranked offense in the country & 2nd in the conference is beyond ridiculous. Especially when the last 4 years have been ranked 8/12/32/17. The rest of the Big East coaches must be really effing stupid if they can't stop us with "no discernable offensive system."
Give me a damn break. Do you know how many other coaches have had top-32 offenses each of the past 4 years? Just 6: John Calipari, Bill Self, Mike Krzyzweski, Jay Wright, Chris Mack, & Randy Bennett. Either Wojo is a really good offensive coach or there are about 345 really really terrible offensive coaches out there.
Sure. All of this may be true at present, though it does also coincide with having the Big East's All-Time leading scorer on our team, along with having elite 3-point shooters in Rowsey and Sam Hauser. Isn't eFG% considered the most heavily weighted advanced stat predictive of success?
However, this was also part of my past frustration - we've been elite offensively 3 of the last 4 years, but still have zero NCAA wins, one of the elite years ended in the NIT.
Credit to the staff for getting these elite shooters to MU, yet suspect it won't be sustainable. Question then becomes: Without sublime shooting ability, can Wojo scheme a team to be successful enough to win at a high rate. We should start seeing that question answered these next couple of years.
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The offense got us plenty of open looks which we didn’t hit. Watch the game again. The coaching staff cannot make shots for players.
Watch how many possessions there was zero ball movement, zero movement away from the ball, and one on one play.
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Cain has just gotten back to the form he had as a freshman. Not uncommon in Wojo's tenure for players to regress/lose confidence - Duane Wilson, Cohen, Cheatham, Morrow, to name a few.
Duane Wilson: Repeatedly Injured
Cohen: Recruited Over
Cheatham: Actually improved from year 1 to year 2 before being recruited over
Morrow: Repeatedly Injured
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How do you explain zero wins....we played two better teams that day. That’s how. Weird that it has been two appearances in the last three years...but your agenda rings loudly.
Murray St and how to handle Morant sure was figured out easily by Leonard Hamilton and staff the next round. He did opposite of Wojo’s approach in defending them and blew them out.
Yeah, my agenda, an opinion that doesn’t match yours. You are so pompous.
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If it would have been less than awful most of Wednesday’s game, we probably win it. We still had a chance the last minute in spite of all the problems. And again begs the question, how does that happen? It was way more than just an off night shooting as previously stated.
What’s going to happen to our wonderful offensive rankings when we don’t have the most prolific scorer in school history anymore? A guy that score 20 without breaking a sweat.
How does that happen? Jay Wright had a good defensive gameplan for us. It happens. Wojo adjusted and beat that good defensive gameplan for the last 14 minutes but it was too little too late.
Honest question, how much non-MU college basketball do you watch. Cause if you think we have no offensive identity, you should see what else is out there.
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Murray St and how to handle Morant sure was figured out easily by Leonard Hamilton and staff the next round. He did opposite of Wojo’s approach in defending them and blew them out.
Yeah, my agenda, an opinion that doesn’t match yours. You are so pompous.
With length and athleticism is how Florida State handled Morant.
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Murray St and how to handle Morant sure was figured out easily by Leonard Hamilton and staff the next round. He did opposite of Wojo’s approach in defending them and blew them out.
Yeah, my agenda, an opinion that doesn’t match yours. You are so pompous.
Did Leonard Hamilton do the opposite of Wojo? Or did he have a top 10 defensive team with a roster that looked completely different than ours?
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How does that happen? Jay Wright had a good defensive gameplan for us. It happens. Wojo adjusted and beat that good defensive gameplan for the last 14 minutes but it was too little too late.
Honest question, how much non-MU college basketball do you watch. Cause if you think we have no offensive identity, you should see what else is out there.
What did Wright and Nova do that was so suffocating for us? Describe this brilliant defensive gameplan he concocted since that’s your explanation.
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Watch how many possessions there was zero ball movement, zero movement away from the ball, and one on one play.
Yes, at times that happened. Now also look how many wide open shots didn’t go down.
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What did Wright and Nova do that was so suffocating for us? Describe this brilliant defensive gameplan he concocted since that’s your explanation.
He left Marquette guys wide open so they’d miss shots. Did you watch the game?
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Did Leonard Hamilton do the opposite of Wojo? Or did he have a top 10 defensive team with a roster that looked completely different than ours?
Yes, he didn’t obsess about stopping Morant and multiple guys running at him to get the ball out of his hands. They just stopped everyone else and made Murray St the one man show they were.
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Murray St and how to handle Morant sure was figured out easily by Leonard Hamilton and staff the next round. He did opposite of Wojo’s approach in defending them and blew them out.
Yeah, my agenda, an opinion that doesn’t match yours. You are so pompous.
FSU has the type of athleticism to do that, we didn’t. Matchups matter.
Leonard Hamilton is 70+ years old and has much more experience than Wojo does. That’s the way it goes.
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I love how Wojo seemingly fell into great shooters yet we ignore how Anim, Bailey, & Cain have become reliable shooters.
And criticizing March success in February is a dishonest argument. At this point of the season, all he can do is put them into position to win in March. Winning 6/8 is doing just that. He can't undo that narrative until next month. It's a complete straw man.
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FSU has the type of athleticism to do that, we didn’t. Matchups matter.
Leonard Hamilton is 70+ years old and has much more experience than Wojo does. That’s the way it goes.
Your first point, Morant still had like 28. Rest of their guys were nothing to fear athletically or anything else. Rest we’re all mid major guys, nothing more. We had the personnel to shut every other guy down. So, no.
Your second point, OMG.
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Lol. I love the NoJos. “We’ve seen 6 years of this (despite year 6 still being ongoing) and we have 0 Tourney wins to show for it. How long does he need? At what point is he just what he is?!”
Also NoJos: “Yeah our offense has been great. But we’ve had immaculate 3 point shooting and the greatest scorer in the history of the BE. This offense can not be sustainable and we’ll fall back soon.”
Have it both ways, I guess.
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I love how Wojo seemingly fell into great shooters yet we ignore how Anim, Bailey, & Cain have become reliable shooters.
And criticizing March success in February is a dishonest argument. At this point of the season, all he can do is put them into position to win in March. Winning 6/8 is doing just that. He can't undo that narrative until next month. It's a complete straw man.
Bailey and Cain are “reliable shooters”?!? What, ever 4th or 5th game? I love Bailey and still believe he holds great promise and will be consistent someday, but he’s clearly not “reliable’” in any way, shape, or form yet.
You throw all your season total rankings out there, but it’s dishonest to talk season results thus far under Wojo?? Got it, thanks.
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Your first point, Morant still had like 28. Rest of their guys were nothing to fear athletically or anything else. We had the personnel to shut every other guy down. So, no.
Your second point, OMG.
Why is it hard to accept our coach is young and still learning, other more experienced coaches are better AND also not coming to MU...ever. So I’d rather ride this guy as he improves than start over every five years.
Now back to Nova, in the first half we missed plenty of wide open shots which the offense was able to scheme to get those looks. Are you denying this?
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Your first point, Morant still had like 28. Rest of their guys were nothing to fear athletically or anything else. Rest we’re all mid major guys, nothing more. We had the personnel to shut every other guy down. So, no.
Your second point, OMG.
Actually, with the 2 quitters on the floor, we absolutely did not have the personnel to shut them down. We had the slower, less athletic players.
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Duane Wilson: Repeatedly Injured
Cohen: Recruited Over
Cheatham: Actually improved from year 1 to year 2 before being recruited over
Morrow: Repeatedly Injured
"Recruited over," now becomes the term for guys regressing from Year 1, 2 and 3.
"Repeatedly Injured," yet didn't miss any games due to injury while Wojo was coaching.
Perhaps we should add:
Deonte Burton: Recruited Over (by Sandy Cohen), who then was recruited over by whom?
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Bailey and Cain are “reliable shooters”?!? What, ever 4th or 5th game? I love Bailey and still believe he holds great promise and will be consistent someday, but he’s clearly not “reliable’” in any way, shape, or form yet.
You throw all your season total rankings out there, but it’s dishonest to talk season results thus far under Wojo?? Got it, thanks.
40% 3 point shooters are unreliable shooters. Got it.
Can’t argue with cluelessness.
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Why is it hard to accept our coach is young and still learning, other more experienced coaches are better AND also not coming to MU...ever. So I’d rather ride this guy as he improves than start over every five years.
Now back to Nova, in the first half we missed plenty of wide open shots which the offense was able to scheme to get those looks. Are you denying this?
Yes, we all know you’re the official Wojo defender here, no matter how pathetic it sounds. How to explain Buzz and Crean’s success here then? Wojo was 38 when he took the job. Crean was 32, Buzz was 36. I could go on, but why bother.
Yes, they missed plenty of open looks. Really keen insight to point that out, thanks. So maybe get your guys doing other things as mentioned- motion, cutting, ball movement; all that were absent and have your system quickly adjust accordingly before game gets away as it did. Nova was running smoothly and efficiently in the meantime. But then again, Wright is older and more experienced.
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I like Jamal Cain a lot and hope he goes on a heater that forces more playing time.
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40% 3 point shooters are unreliable shooters. Got it.
Can’t argue with cluelessness.
Bailey’s zero Wednesday is the very definition of reliable. That preceded by scoring tallies of 16, 2,8, 14 in his last 5 games.
Won’t even bother with Cain’s reliable production. Too easy.
Great point to wrap your post though.
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Yes, we all know you’re the official Wojo defender here, no matter how pathetic it sounds. How to explain Buzz and Crean’s success here then? Wojo was 38 when he took the job. Crean was 32, Buzz was 36. I could go on, but why bother.
Yes, they missed plenty of open looks. Really keen insight to point that out, thanks. So maybe get your guys doing other things as mentioned- motion, cutting, ball movement; all that were absent and have your system quickly adjust accordingly before game gets away as it did. Nova was running smoothly and efficiently in the meantime. But then again, Wright is older and more experienced.
I wonder what you thought about Jay Wright when MU was humming along smoothly and Nova couldn’t score when they played at Marquette. Jay sucks. No offensive system.
Just hilarious you look at one half of basketball and say, “Well the great offensive rankings (a year long look at the offense vs. a single half look at the offense...) have netted us no March wins so throw those out the window. Our offense sucked at Nova, thus Wojo’s offense has never had an identity or system.”
Good stuff.
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Bailey’s zero Wednesday is the very definition of reliable. That preceded by scoring tallies of 16, 2,8, 14 in his last 5 games.
Won’t even bother with Cain’s reliable production. Too easy.
Great point to wrap your post though.
So again ignore the year long numbers and zero in on a single game performance. Outstanding stuff here.
Find me a single player in the entire country that is a “reliable” shooter then. They better be over 40% 3 point shooting in every single game. Otherwise how in the world can you call them reliable?!
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So again ignore the year long numbers and zero in on a single game performance. Outstanding stuff here.
Find me a single player in the entire country that is a “reliable” shooter then. They better be over 40% 3 point shooting in every single game. Otherwise how in the world can you call them reliable?!
Yes, my response was limited to Wednesday night.
As you profoundly stated before...
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Bailey and Cain are “reliable shooters”?!? What, ever 4th or 5th game? I love Bailey and still believe he holds great promise and will be consistent someday, but he’s clearly not “reliable’” in any way, shape, or form yet.
You throw all your season total rankings out there, but it’s dishonest to talk season results thus far under Wojo?? Got it, thanks.
What specifically, RIGHT NOW, can do do to change the "no wins in March" straw man you present. If the answer is nothing (spoiler alert: it is) you are making a dishonest straw man argument.
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"Recruited over," now becomes the term for guys regressing from Year 1, 2 and 3.
"Repeatedly Injured," yet didn't miss any games due to injury while Wojo was coaching.
Perhaps we should add:
Deonte Burton: Recruited Over (by Sandy Cohen), who then was recruited over by whom?
Sandy was definitely recruited over; I liked Sandy, but there was a reason he transferred down to a mid-major.
Likewise, Duane (and Traci) saw that they were not going to be starters and transferred elsewhere to get more playing time. Sadly Duane got injured again and Traci couldn't really find success even at a low major--I don't think you can rationally blame those on Wojo.
I wish Cheatham would have stayed, but he too transferred to lesser programs and didn't show noticeable improvement. Too bad, after his freshman year I thought Haanif was going to something special.
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I wonder what you thought about Jay Wright when MU was humming along smoothly and Nova couldn’t score when they played at Marquette. Jay sucks. No offensive system.
Just hilarious you look at one half of basketball and say, “Well the great offensive rankings (a year long look at the offense vs. a single half look at the offense...) have netted us no March wins so throw those out the window. Our offense sucked at Nova, thus Wojo’s offense has never had an identity or system.”
Good stuff.
I thought, gee he’s won two national titles.
Wojo hasn’t earned the most remote of slack for his body of work this far in at a school which heavily invests in men’s basketball. Which is either ignored or just lost on the Wojo defenders here.
Glad you’re so proud of our offensive rankings. I’d rather win games like Wednesday. Rankings are an easy fall back to ignore what’s happening right in front of you.
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I thought, gee he’s won two national titles.
Wojo hasn’t earned the most remote of slack for his body of work this far in at a school which heavily invests in men’s basketball. Which is either ignored or just lost on the Wojo defenders here.
Glad you’re so proud of our offensive rankings. I’d rather win games like Wednesday. Rankings are an easy fall back to ignore what’s happening right in front of you.
Lol! Rankings are what is happening right in front of me.
This is just proof no matter what MU does under Wojo people will cry about it.
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What specifically, RIGHT NOW, can do do to change the "no wins in March" straw man you present. If the answer is nothing (spoiler alert: it is) you are making a dishonest straw man argument.
Sorry if you don’t like the facts as they stand at the moment. I don’t either for that matter. But they are what they are.
But you want to throw out season rankings as your proof things are just fine, including my opinion about lacking any identity (which I didn’t limit to offense) without a response in kind.
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Lol! Rankings are what is happening right in front of me.
This is just proof no matter what MU does under Wojo people will cry about it.
Was their standing around on offense Wednesday acceptable to you? Was their non ball movement okay too? Was there throwing up brick after brick for almost 30 minutes without doing anything different pleasing for you to watch? And it’s happened more times than just Wednesday.
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But the question becomes, how is it after 6 years they don’t have a discernible offensive system in place to fall back on and prevent that from happening so you don’t fall into a trap of playing individual basketball?
The crappy thing about the internet is that when someone counters your stupid argument, the quote feature prevents you from pretending you didn't say what you said.
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Yes, we all know you’re the official Wojo defender here, no matter how pathetic it sounds. How to explain Buzz and Crean’s success here then? Wojo was 38 when he took the job. Crean was 32, Buzz was 36. I could go on, but why bother.
Yes, they missed plenty of open looks. Really keen insight to point that out, thanks. So maybe get your guys doing other things as mentioned- motion, cutting, ball movement; all that were absent and have your system quickly adjust accordingly before game gets away as it did. Nova was running smoothly and efficiently in the meantime. But then again, Wright is older and more experienced.
But you said the offense was terrible when you now admit it was missing a lot of open shots, too.
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Bailey’s zero Wednesday is the very definition of reliable. That preceded by scoring tallies of 16, 2,8, 14 in his last 5 games.
Won’t even bother with Cain’s reliable production. Too easy.
Great point to wrap your post though.
Howard missed threes against Maryland. Is he now an unreliable shooter? I'm sorry that the facts don't care about your feelings.
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The crappy thing about the internet is that when someone counters your stupid argument, the quote feature prevents you from pretending you didn't say what you said.
Where have I been inconsistent?
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Howard missed threes against Maryland. Is he now an unreliable shooter? I'm sorry that the facts don't care about your feelings.
That’s your counter point? One game from the all time leading scorer in program history?
Bailey and Cain haven’t been remotely consistent game to game. To say they have been is moronic.
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That’s your counter point? One game from the all time leading scorer in program history?
Bailey and Cain haven’t been remotely consistent game to game. To say they have been is moronic.
He had plenty of inconsistent games. Both Anim and Bailey are top-215 in the country in 3P% and have each made at least one three in 18/24 games this season. That’s exactly what consistency is. Again, sorry the facts don't match the BS narrative you are trying to create.
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That’s your counter point? One game from the all time leading scorer in program history?
Bailey and Cain haven’t been remotely consistent game to game. To say they have been is moronic.
This is categorically false.
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Hope to see Jamal build on his performance and earn more playing time going forward.
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This guy gives Hutch a bad reputation
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Fun thread!
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Murray St and how to handle Morant sure was figured out easily by Leonard Hamilton and staff the next round. He did opposite of Wojo’s approach in defending them and blew them out.
Yeah, my agenda, an opinion that doesn’t match yours. You are so pompous.
This is dumb, because Florida St. was a much better team than MU. Had MU beaten Murray St. they would of still been destroyed by Florida St. Florida St. had very quick defensive players that could get out and cover outside shooters.
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"Recruited over," now becomes the term for guys regressing from Year 1, 2 and 3.
Who did you think Sandy Cohen should play over in his sophomore year?
"Repeatedly Injured," yet didn't miss any games due to injury while Wojo was coaching.
What are you saying here? That the injuries didn't happen or that injuries can only impact development if they result in missed playing time?
Perhaps we should add:
Deonte Burton: Recruited Over (by Sandy Cohen), who then was recruited over by whom?
Ners, this has been debunked so many times, I'm not sure what more can be said. Sandy Cohen started exactly three games when Burton was here. There were more games when they both came off the bench than Sandy starting over Burton.
What's more, there were only two games (the first two of the season) where Cohen played more minutes than Burton. Burton played more minutes than Cohen in 6/8 games.
In the two games where Burton didn't play more minutes than Cohen, one he picked up two first half fouls and then picked up his third and fourth foul with 13:52 left in the game. That's why he didn't play more. In the second game, he went 1-4 from the field with two turnovers while Cohen went 3 for 5 including 2 threes. After that game, Burton played more minutes than Cohen in every single game.
So really, there was exactly one game where Wojo played Cohen more than Burton because of play on the floor. Burton outplayed Cohen in every other game. Burton averaged 16.1 mpg during that stretch, Cohen averaged 12.3. This whole idea that Wojo played Cohen over Burton is a fabrication.
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Who did you think Sandy Cohen should play over in his sophomore year?
What are you saying here? That the injuries didn't happen or that injuries can only impact development if they result in missed playing time?
Ners, this has been debunked so many times, I'm not sure what more can be said. Sandy Cohen started exactly three games when Burton was here. There were more games when they both came off the bench than Sandy starting over Burton.
What's more, there were only two games (the first two of the season) where Cohen played more minutes than Burton. Burton played more minutes than Cohen in 6/8 games.
In the two games where Burton didn't play more minutes than Cohen, one he picked up two first half fouls and then picked up his third and fourth foul with 13:52 left in the game. That's why he didn't play more. In the second game, he went 1-4 from the field with two turnovers while Cohen went 3 for 5 including 2 threes. After that game, Burton played more minutes than Cohen in every single game.
So really, there was exactly one game where Wojo played Cohen more than Burton because of play on the floor. Burton outplayed Cohen in every other game. Burton averaged 16.1 mpg during that stretch, Cohen averaged 12.3. This whole idea that Wojo played Cohen over Burton is a fabrication.
Sandy Cohen started his first three games in his MU career. Deonte Burton never started 1 game under Wojo...thus Deonte got recruited over. LOL. This simple fact is what gave me major cause for alarm as to his coaching ability. How in the F he thought freshman Sandy Cohen was a better option to start than Deonte was inexcusable - even if just for the first 3 games of that season.
Then the next year, Sandy Cohen got slightly more playing time than JJJ. Yet again a WTF moment in Wojo's early career coaching at MU.
As for the injuries you cited - no, I don't feel as though they were relevant factors in those players not achieving what they had prior in their career. You have your opinion on the matter, I have mine. Agree to disagree.
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Players can have had their minutes limited because of effort in practice, mental mistakes, or countless other things. JJ and Burton were clearly more talented than Sandy, but your most talented players don't automatically get the most minutes.
If all other things were equal and Sandy was playing more than those two guys then that's a red flag. We have no idea if all other things were equal.
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Sandy Cohen started his first three games in his MU career. Deonte Burton never started 1 game under Wojo...thus Deonte got recruited over. LOL. This simple fact is what gave me major cause for alarm as to his coaching ability. How in the F he thought freshman Sandy Cohen was a better option to start than Deonte was inexcusable - even if just for the first 3 games of that season.
Then the next year, Sandy Cohen got slightly more playing time than JJJ. Yet again a WTF moment in Wojo's early career coaching at MU.
As for the injuries you cited - no, I don't feel as though they were relevant factors in those players not achieving what they had prior in their career. You have your opinion on the matter, I have mine. Agree to disagree.
Deonte wasn’t playing defense, his head was in the clouds.
Al McGuire similar issue with Bernard Toone. He would not start Toone because he didn’t play defense. He said on any given night Toone could give Al 20 points, but at a trade off of 24 points for the other side which wasn’t worth it.
You thought John Dawson was good....so why does your opinion matter at all regarding MU hoops?
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Let's argue about who should have started 5+ years ago again, Ners. That's some real useful stuff
I think I'll hop back over to the Big East thread, where at least guru is only arguing about crap nobody can do anything about that happened only 5+ weeks ago.
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Sandy Cohen started his first three games in his MU career. Deonte Burton never started 1 game under Wojo...thus Deonte got recruited over. LOL. This simple fact is what gave me major cause for alarm as to his coaching ability. How in the F he thought freshman Sandy Cohen was a better option to start than Deonte was inexcusable - even if just for the first 3 games of that season.
So who starts is more important than how many minutes a player gets in a game? So what did you think of Buzz starting Erik Williams over Jae Crowder? Was that also a major cause for alarm as to his coaching ability? Or is it possible that just because a player starts doesn't mean that the coach thinks they are the better player?
Then the next year, Sandy Cohen got slightly more playing time than JJJ. Yet again a WTF moment in Wojo's early career coaching at MU.
This isn't true, Jajuan averaged 23.7 mpg, Sandy averaged 23.3. Though I think this is a better argument than your Deonte/Sandy one.
As for the injuries you cited - no, I don't feel as though they were relevant factors in those players not achieving what they had prior in their career. You have your opinion on the matter, I have mine. Agree to disagree.
You have an opinion on the matter. That doesn't mean I do. Both Duane and Ed had significant injuries that impacted their development. I specifically remember Duane tweeting a video of himself from high school saying that he wished he had those legs again. Plus, Ed didn't even regress. Another poster, I believe it was Dr. B, showed that he had the same advanced stats that he did at Nebraska, he just played less minutes for a better team.
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https://www.jsonline.com/restricted/?return=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jsonline.com%2Fstory%2Fsports%2Fcollege%2Fmarquette%2F2020%2F02%2F17%2Fjamal-cain-becoming-key-substitute-marquette-basketball%2F4784061002%2F
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Where have I been inconsistent?
Fair. You have been consistent in ignoring facts and reality.
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https://www.jsonline.com/restricted/?return=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jsonline.com%2Fstory%2Fsports%2Fcollege%2Fmarquette%2F2020%2F02%2F17%2Fjamal-cain-becoming-key-substitute-marquette-basketball%2F4784061002%2F
Can you paste content here/summarize for those of us non-subscirbers?
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Can you paste content here/summarize for those of us non-subscirbers?
Cain is becoming a key substitute for Marquette. You're welcome.
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Can you paste content here/summarize for those of us non-subscirbers?
I was really surprised by this quote from Cain:
"If only that dope Wojo had started me and played me 41 minutes a game, we'd have won 30 of our first 24 games."
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I was really surprised by this quote from Cain:
"If only that dope Wojo had started me and played me 41 minutes a game, we'd have won 30 of our first 24 games."
Lol
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Cain is becoming a key substitute for Marquette. You're welcome.
One of only four key substitutes!
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I did learn from the article that his name is pronounced Kah-in.
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I did learn from the article that his name is pronounced Kah-in.
Bullcrap!