Markus GOAT

[Jay Bee]

A lot of the best players who arrived in college with Markus (and a year or two after him) are gone.

His freshman year, the One Trick Pony hit 54.7% of his trey attempts - tops in the nation.

Ppl complained about lack of a floater and ability to drive

In year two they wanted more trips to the line

Markus has continued to evolve

#OTP
#M2N

[brewcity77]

That said, the question is where he stands now, not playing the "What if?" game.

Except TAMU very much introduced the "what if" with the Kemba reference, and I think this response is just crazy (in that Howard still wouldn't make the MU all time top-10).

If Howard pulls off a Kemba, it would not change my opinion of Howard’s place in history.

[Galway Eagle]

That schedule was as soft as a marshmellow.  They played only two teams that made the NCAA tournament. (Won at home v. Drake and lost at Notre Dame)  I believe those were the only two teams that were ranked at any point of the year.

I've pointed this out on here before regarding a lot of the Al seasons and got the "you don't have the life experience to understand" response.

[nyg]

PTM

Yep is right. I am tired of talking about success of a lifetime ago. Never want to forget a great time in my life, but would love another era of greatness. I have said countless times that MU should move on from the Al era.
I was not around, or barely around, for the Packer Lombardi era and love that we have recent Packer success to embrace. I love that we compare three all time great QB’s and debate which is better. To date, aside from Wade, I do not believe MU has provided the on court success to make old guys forget Al and his players.

If I recall correctly, weren't you in elementary school at the time of the Al era and success.  You must have a great memory, I can't remember anything from my elementary school time, neverless basketball players names, skill sets, etc.   Good for you. 

[Lennys Tap]

Does a single 70’s team stay intact in today’s game though? I think that’s the single largest advantage of the era.

Chones left before the tournament during his junior year. We were 22-0 (after going 28-1 the previous year) with a solid shot at a title. And if he stays his senior year, 1973 looks good, too. In '74 we lost the championship game. Lucas left and cost us a real shot in '75. In '76 we were the 2nd best team in the country, 26-1 when Indiana's 32-0 team beat us in the regional finals. And in '77 we won it all. While we lost Chones and Lucas, teams like UCLA and Indiana lost nobody.

[nyg]

Chones left before the tournament during his junior year. We were 22-0 (after going 28-1 the previous year) with a solid shot at a title. And if he stays his senior year, 1973 looks good, too. In '74 we lost the championship game. Lucas left and cost us a real shot in '75. In '76 we were the 2nd best team in the country, 26-1 when Indiana's 32-0 team beat us in the regional finals. And in '77 we won it all. While we lost Chones and Lucas, teams like UCLA and Indiana lost nobody.

Don't forget Larry McNeil leaving, he left in between Chones and Lucas. 

[Lennys Tap]

His freshman year, the One Trick Pony hit 54.7% of his trey attempts - tops in the nation.

Ppl complained about lack of a floater and ability to drive

In year two they wanted more trips to the line

Markus has continued to evolve

#OTP
#M2N

Markus arrived as an elite shooter. Now he's also an elite scorer. He's also better at his weaknesses (defense, ball handling, court vision). He's evolved a lot.

That said, much of the top talent from his class and the next two classes aren't playing in college any more. That makes things a little easier for an experienced player.

[Lennys Tap]

Don't forget Larry McNeil leaving, he left in between Chones and Lucas.

True. If McNeil doesn't leave maybe we beat NC State in that title game. We were the only top program affected by early departures in that era IIRC.

[Jay Bee]

Markus arrived as an elite shooter. Now he's also an elite scorer. He's also better at his weaknesses (defense, ball handling, court vision). He's evolved a lot.

That said, much of the top talent from his class and the next two classes aren't playing in college any more. That makes things a little easier for an experienced player.

He's still the youngest!

BTW, Maryland's star is 4-year guy Anthony Cowen. The 22-year old Cowen's highest assist rate coming into this year was 26.9%... the 20-year old #OTP was higher than that last season.. yet more evolution.

Plenty of 4-year players in our conference... see Powell, Diallo and all of crappy Providence.. Charlie Moore at DePaul.. tyrique and gooden at X, Kamar at Butler, etc etc... let's not overstate "it's easy for him because he's a rare senior"

[Its DJOver]

Lets also not diminish the overall growth of CBB.  It has had it's faults, but stuff like USA Basketball/AAU development in High School has raised the overall level of play across the board.

Not meant as a slight at the older players, but imagine how much better Chones would have been coming in if he'd been going up against the best in the Midwest/country rather than just the tallest high schooler from the farm town down the road?

[Jockey]

So does performance not actually matter?  Just your eye test? That's fine if it does,  I just think we are having different conversations.

Smartest post here. We all have our own criteria. Like a couple others, I am partial to the old time guys. I loved Meminger, but as I said earlier, he was not even the best player on his own team two of the three years he was here. How could he be in the conversation for GOAT?

[Jockey]

Man, if these guys from the 70s were such complete players with the highest IQs, often played on the same teams and led by the best coach off all-time, you’d think they would’ve won more, aina?

They were top 5-10 or better almost every year. But Al used a system that could not be successful now. He generally recruited just one star a year. And he always tried to feature his senior star.

[79Warrior]

They were top 5-10 or better almost every year. But Al used a system that could not be successful now. He generally recruited just one star a year. And he always tried to feature his senior star.

Not to mention,  Freshmen were ineligible for part of his career.

[Lennys Tap]

He's still the youngest!

BTW, Maryland's star is 4-year guy Anthony Cowen. The 22-year old Cowen's highest assist rate coming into this year was 26.9%... the 20-year old #OTP was higher than that last season.. yet more evolution.

Plenty of 4-year players in our conference... see Powell, Diallo and all of crappy Providence.. Charlie Moore at DePaul.. tyrique and gooden at X, Kamar at Butler, etc etc... let's not overstate "it's easy for him because he's a rare senior"

JB

Never said "easy" but there's no doubt it's easier being POY or an All American with guys like Zion Williamson, Lonzo Ball, Ja Morant, etc., etc., etc., out of the picture.

[Jockey]

NC State would have beaten us 9 out of 10 times, especially in NC. Al’s ego did not cost MU the game. In similar situation, IU was a dream team and Al’s antics did not cost us that game.

Goose,
Very interesting post. Even though Thompson was one of the greatest players ever, I though it was Burleson who was the difference.


But here's the interesting part. You said we would lose 9 out of 10 times, yet you have 3 of the Warriors from that game on your GOAT list. Lloyd Walton who lasted 5 years in the NBA also was on the team. I think that shows your bias toward the old guys (which I admit I have as well as they comprise almost my entire list of my faves).

What I am saying is that I think you greatly undervalue MH. He was a pretty good player his first two years, though not worthy of being discussed in a topic like this. But he will finish his career as a two-time All-American. I have a hard time figuring out how he might barely make your top 20.

[Cheeks]

The last 10 years of Al tenure we were the second best program in the country - behind only UCLA and John Wooden, better than Dean Smith and N Carolina, Kentucky, Indiana, etc. We were a top 10 team every year. We declined a bid one year and won what was still a prestigious NIT tournament. In the other 9 we won 1 title, were runner up once and had multiple elite 8s. Our WORST finish in those years was the Sweet 16. Those 10 years produced 10 of the best 12 teams in Marquette history.

Look, I get that those who didn't experience it don't have the attachment to that era that we old farts have - history isn't as exciting as living something. I wish that all Scoopers would could have gone through it.

That claim can be made and is true in wins and losses, but it is subjective overall.  Soft schedule, if you believe in rankings others can make a claim and same with tournament wins.  We were very very good, as were others.

It’s also why I don’t understand why the old dudes don’t acknowledge some programs are great because they win regardless of the coach, others were great because of the coach.  MU has great history, but the pinnacle was because of one guy who isn’t walking through that door again.  Which is why it drives me crazy that so many of you want to change coaches like underwear. 

[Cheeks]

But it’s a #crapshoot

It is ask Hank 1978.  Ask Al how his best teams never won it, he said he had 4 or 5 better teams than the one that actually won it.  Absolutely a crapshoot.  How’s piloting these days?

[Cheeks]

PTM
Gate keeping of Markus? My evaluation of Howard has zero to do with the Al era. I simply believe he is one dimensional, but awfully good at that one skill. What many on here fail to realize, I hope Wojo recruits guys that put Al’s guys on ice. Sadly, for over 40 years the talent has not surpassed a ten year run in program history.
Nothing would make me happier than MU recruiting a guy that makes me forget about Bo or Butch. I have said countless times that I am tired of the Al era in regards how it rammed down on our throats by MU. Hopefully somewhere down the line a new era is romanticized by younger fans. If younger fans want to get excited about Howard averaging 30, without a win in March, go for it and embrace it.

Correct, because Al isn’t walking through that door anymore.  MU was great in that 10 year run because of Al.  He’s gone.  We need to stop comparing ourselves to a once in a lifetime era.  MU isn’t that kind of school.  We can still be very good, but location, academics, no football, etc, in today’s world make getting back to that magical run almost if not virtually impossible.

[Goose]

nyg

You recall correctly on my age. That said, I attended 81 of the 82 home game winning streak. Only miss was a ND against Austin Carr that Goose stones him. Probably attended over 100 practices and was at many road games.

[Shooter McGavin]

Goose,
Very interesting post. Even though Thompson was one of the greatest players ever, I though it was Burleson who was the difference.


But here's the interesting part. You said we would lose 9 out of 10 times, yet you have 3 of the Warriors from that game on your GOAT list. Lloyd Walton who lasted 5 years in the NBA also was on the team. I think that shows your bias toward the old guys (which I admit I have as well as they comprise almost my entire list of my faves).

What I am saying is that I think you greatly undervalue MH. He was a pretty good player his first two years, though not worthy of being discussed in a topic like this. But he will finish his career as a two-time All-American. I have a hard time figuring out how he might barely make your top 20.

It’s a paternalistic asinine take that he will have a hard time backing out of unless he says he was drunk while making it.

[Cheeks]

PTM

Yep is right. I am tired of talking about success of a lifetime ago. Never want to forget a great time in my life, but would love another era of greatness. I have said countless times that MU should move on from the Al era.
I was not around, or barely around, for the Packer Lombardi era and love that we have recent Packer success to embrace. I love that we compare three all time great QB’s and debate which is better. To date, aside from Wade, I do not believe MU has provided the on court success to make old guys forget Al and his players.

But repeating success in a controlled environment like the NFL or NBA is much easier.  Salary caps give all a shot. Draft positions. Etc.  In college, as you know very well, it comes down to who you can convince to come to play for you...much harder and more difficult.  Plus you are competing with 100’s of other schools.

I think you have moved on from the Al era, but too many people here and associated donors haven’t still to this day and it doesn’t help us in my opinion. When you have former MU coaches and assistants saying his ghost never dies, or too many alums stuck in another century...not a good thing.

My goal and hopes with Wojo is he has a 15 year run, continues trajectory and can literally outlive some of the memories that get thrown around way too much.  We need to move on.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

What other program would have fans claim that their all time leading scorer, conference player of the year and second team all American isn't one of the program's top ten players of all time?

[lawdog77]

What other program would have fans claim that their all time leading scorer, conference player of the year and second team all American isn't one of the program's top ten players of all time?

maybe north.carolina and hansborough?

[Cheeks]

maybe north.carolina and hansborough?

We ain’t North Carolina

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

maybe north.carolina and hansborough?

He was clearly one of UNC's top 10 all time players.  If their fans feel otherwise, they're delusional.