MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on November 30, 2019, 03:36:27 AM

Title: Markus GOAT
Post by: 1SE on November 30, 2019, 03:36:27 AM
I think the only back to back 40pt games in BE history deserves a revival of this debate....
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2019, 04:33:41 AM
He has moved into my top twenty this season. Think little chance of cracking top ten and light years from catching Wade.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 30, 2019, 04:35:39 AM
Only player in last 20 years with multiple 50 point games.

Has three of the four 50 point games in Big East history.

Along with Pete Maravich and Wayman Tisdale as only players in NCAA history with a 50 point game in three straight years.

Passed the Orlando Invitational three day scoring record of 73 in only two days with 91.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 30, 2019, 04:42:45 AM
He has moved into my top twenty this season. Think little chance of cracking top ten and light years from catching Wade.

If you are basing it on tournament success, Dwyane Wade would have won ZERO tournament games if Marquette didn’t sneak by Holy Cross thanks to 29 points from Travis Diener.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2019, 04:44:18 AM
Titan

Do not believe I mentioned it was based off NCAA success. But now that you mention it, that would be nice.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 30, 2019, 04:47:11 AM
Titan

Do not believe I mentioned it was based off NCAA success. But now that you mention it, that would be nice.

I would probably still give Wade the nod over Markus, but I wouldn’t say he is light years ahead.  What separates them so much for you?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2019, 04:49:35 AM
Titan
Are you seriously asking what separates Wade from Howard?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 30, 2019, 04:57:55 AM
Titan
Are you seriously asking what separates Wade from Howard?

No, I’m asking what makes Wade “light years” ahead. I think it’s much closer than that.

And what keeps him out of your top 10?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2019, 05:08:11 AM
Titan
Wade was a complete, all around player and elite athlete. Howard can take a lot of shots and score points.
In really thinking about all time greats, I have never had Doc Rivers in top 15 and believe his career at MU probably grades out to a B. In comparing Howard to Doc, I would give Doc the nod because he also was an all around player and elite athlete.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 30, 2019, 05:12:24 AM
Titan
Wade was a complete, all around player and elite athlete. Howard can take a lot of shots and score points.
In really thinking about all time greats, I have never had Doc Rivers in top 15 and believe his career at MU probably grades out to a B. In comparing Howard to Doc, I would give Doc the nod because he also was an all around player and elite athlete.

Ok... now who are the other eight you have ahead of Markus?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2019, 05:19:10 AM
Titan
He is not in my top ten. For a point of reference, I like players that impact on both sides of the ball, high ball IQ, can rebound on both ends of the court and make teammates better.
Howard is the greatest scorer in MU history. He is in my top purest shooters and that pretty much sums his game, IMO. FYI I would take the other pure shooters game against UConn over all of Howard’s 40+ nights.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 30, 2019, 05:28:42 AM
Titan
He is not in my top ten. For a point of reference, I like players that make impact on both sides of the ball, high ball IQ, can rebound on both ends of the court and make teammates better.
Howard is the greatest scorer in MU history. He is in my top purest shooters and that pretty much sums his game, IMO. FYI I would take the other pure shooters game against UConn over all of Howard’s 40+ nights.

Alright.

I mean a pretty big part of basketball is scoring. And to leave as you say “the greatest scorer in MU history” out of your top 10 seems crazy to me but whatever.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: mileskishnish72 on November 30, 2019, 05:33:42 AM
Alright.

I mean a pretty big part of basketball is scoring. And to leave as you say “the greatest scorer in MU history” out of your top 10 seems crazy to me but whatever.

Interesting in the favorite player thread how little love Jerel got.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Its DJOver on November 30, 2019, 05:35:18 AM
I know and understand the whole 3 point line, 3 years versus 4 years, shot clock argument, but Markus has a legit shot to have the scoring record by 1000+ points, that's not nothing IMO.  I'm not sure if he's the GOAT yet, but IMO if he had played 40-50 years ago, even with his naturally reduced numbers because of the reasons listed above, many here that diminish his accomplishments because of the era/style of play would have him as the GOAT.  IMO he's already no worse than a top 5 all time player, and I do think he has a chance to be #1, but hey, this is a subjective list so the arguments will continue forever, probably with no one changing anyone else's mind.  Welcome to the internet.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2019, 05:42:10 AM
DJO
Where do you have Tony Smith in your all time great list? He was quite the scorer his Sr. Year, was four year contributor, all around player and long NBA career?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Its DJOver on November 30, 2019, 05:46:21 AM
DJO
Where do you have Tony Smith in your all time great list? He was quite the scorer his Sr. Year, was four year contributor, all around player and long NBA career?

I don't have a physical list made, but he'd be in the top 10 for sure, possibly even top 5.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2019, 05:51:21 AM
Tony Smith is in your top ten, possibly top five? Enjoy the GOAT debate, guys.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Its DJOver on November 30, 2019, 06:02:14 AM
All time leading scorer, by possibly more than 1000 points isn't in your top 10? Enjoy the GOAT debate guys.  It's a subjective list comparing players across 60+ years, yea I think there's going to be a fair bit of discrepancy.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: dgies9156 on November 30, 2019, 06:46:24 AM
Titan
Wade was a complete, all around player and elite athlete. Howard can take a lot of shots and score points.
In really thinking about all time greats, I have never had Doc Rivers in top 15 and believe his career at MU probably grades out to a B. In comparing Howard to Doc, I would give Doc the nod because he also was an all around player and elite athlete.

I tend to agree with this analysis.

Don't get me wrong -- Markus is incredible and I'm glad we have him. He is fun to watch and God only knows where we would be without him. He is one of the all-time greats, no doubt, but GOAT, lets not get carried away.

Unless and until Marquette University strikes the name Dwyane Wade from all its records, no one else will be the GOAT. To replace Wade will require an unbelievable run at MU with, probably, a natty to boot. Markus is great but, think about it.

The next folks in line after Wade for GOAT are Butch Lee and Bo Ellis, Maurice Lucas, George Thompson, Jim Chones, Earl Tatum.

Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: brewcity77 on November 30, 2019, 06:48:10 AM
To reach GOAT status, I would say at minimum a Final Four, and guaranteed with a National Title.

A few things...first, people have consistently conflated Markus' defense with Rowsey's because they are the same size. No, Howard isn't a shot-blocker or ball thief, but he has become a solid defender and I have been continually impressed by his defensive effort this year. He has improved significantly as a defender and while we definitely played 4-on-5 on defense with Rowsey, that isn't the case with Markus.

Second, it sucks that NCAA success plays so much into this, but having been on campus for Wade's run, it just does. If Howard can lift us to a Big East Tourney title or a third weekend NCAA run, that will go a long way for me. Sustaining this kind of scoring over the entire season, as well, would be huge. Not the "11 against RMU, 40 against Davidson" but the consistent, 30 ppg for a season.

Third, while it wouldn't be automatic GOAT territory, I think people have to realize the kind of historic scorer Markus is. At his current pace, we would need to win one Big East or NCAA Tournament game for Howard to finish as the all-time leading Big East scorer both for a career and for a single season. Forget pedestrian scorers like Bell, Mullin, and Kittles, he could pass all-time scorers like Gathers, Redick, and Hansbrough. If that doesn't get him into the conversation, then I'm not sure what language people are talking.

Fourth, and finally, Wade is still it for me, and I fully appreciate that he could've set crazy marks had he been here for 4 years, but the bottom line is he wasn't. Longevity has to matter too. No one talks about Kyrie Irving as an all-time Duke great because no matter how good he was, it was still just 11 games. That Howard has played 4 years and poured in points at the rate he has should mean something. We are talking about college player greatness, and sticking around the entire time, especially when he could've tested the waters the past couple years and didn't even put his name in, should count in his favor.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: hairy worthen on November 30, 2019, 07:20:10 AM
To me the great players make their teammates better. MJ scored lots of points, but also made all of his teammates better. Howard scores points and shoots a lot,  he doesn't really make his teammates better in fact some would argue he makes them worse in some games. He doesnt really rebound, defense is average to below average, not a great ball handler, not really known for assists or passing. He scores points and i like him as a player and person, but not close to goat in my opinion.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: lawdog77 on November 30, 2019, 07:26:46 AM
I tend to agree with this analysis.

Don't get me wrong -- Markus is incredible and I'm glad we have him. He is fun to watch and God only knows where we would be without him. He is one of the all-time greats, no doubt, but GOAT, lets not get carried away.

Unless and until Marquette University strikes the name Dwyane Wade from all its records, no one else will be the GOAT. To replace Wade will require an unbelievable run at MU with, probably, a natty to boot. Markus is great but, think about it.

The next folks in line after Wade for GOAT are Butch Lee and Bo Ellis, Maurice Lucas, George Thompson, Jim Chones, Earl Tatum.
earl tatum was great, but imho. Markus has passed him on that list. Earl averaged 12 points a game and never shot over 50%.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Its DJOver on November 30, 2019, 07:32:58 AM
earl tatum was great, but imho. Markus has passed him on that list. Earl averaged 12 points a game and never shot over 50%.

Yea, I think some here have a bit of an inflated view of some of those 70s players because of the team success. IMO a lot of them are similar to Jerel. Very good player that had the benefit of playing alongside several other very good players, making some great teams and a lot of team success, but individually not worthy of the GOAT conversation.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: LloydsLegs on November 30, 2019, 07:33:31 AM
Final 4 and he is with Wade for me. (And as I note in these things, i can look at numbers and enjoy anecdotes, I do not feel qualified to “rate” pre 1980). Started following ncaa in 73/74, but that meant maybe one game a week on tv and reading the boxscores. 
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Pakuni on November 30, 2019, 07:40:00 AM
Dwyane is a solid choice, but it's probably not fair to compare his tournament success with that of Markus.  Wade had two other NBA players along with him on that Final Four run,  and that team doesn't survive the first weekend without huge contributions from both. Markus has not been blessed with the quality of teammates as DWade.

Anyone who says Markus makes his teammates worse is a bona fide moron.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 30, 2019, 07:41:48 AM
Final 4 and he is with Wade for me. (And as I note in these things, i can look at numbers and enjoy anecdotes, I do not feel qualified to “rate” pre 1980). Started following ncaa in 73/74, but that meant maybe one game a week on tv and reading the boxscores. 

Im with you.  He clearly has the individual honors that make him one of the greats.  Now, like anyone, needs team success to be validated.

I am chuckling about MJ comparisons from a temperament standpoint.  That was a begrudgingly learned trait.  Markus is already light years ahead of mike early in his nba career.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: #UnleashSean on November 30, 2019, 07:50:43 AM
Top 10? Maybe.

Goat? Not even close.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: #UnleashSean on November 30, 2019, 07:52:47 AM
Alright.

I mean a pretty big part of basketball is scoring. And to leave as you say “the greatest scorer in MU history” out of your top 10 seems crazy to me but whatever.

With that logic rowsey should be in your top 10.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: hairy worthen on November 30, 2019, 07:54:49 AM
Im with you.  He clearly has the individual honors that make him one of the greats.  Now, like anyone, needs team success to be validated.

I am chuckling about MJ comparisons from a temperament standpoint.  That was a begrudgingly learned trait.  Markus is already light years ahead of mike early in his nba career.
I used MJ as an example of someone who made his teammates better not as a comparison to MH. Do you really think MH has any chance of being anywhere near what MJ was because MH is "light years" ahead of MJ at this point in their careers? You are not very credible.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: brewcity77 on November 30, 2019, 07:55:08 AM
Dwyane is a solid choice, but it's probably not fair to compare his tournament success with that of Markus.  Wade had two other NBA players along with him on that Final Four run,  and that team doesn't survive the first weekend without huge contributions from both. Markus has not been blessed with the quality of teammates as DWade.

Anyone who says Markus makes his teammates worse is a bona fide moron.

Quality of teammates is big, but the reality is Wade's performance against Kentucky was one of those crystalizing moments that solidified Wade's status. The Providence and Creighton games were huge, but Wednesday road games in January don't generate the same acclaim as an Elite 8 game in front of a mostly pro-Marquette crowd on a Saturday when everyone is watching.

I have a feeling that part of the reason Goose scoffs at mentions of Tony Smith is in part about the lack of team success (0 NCAA appearances in his career) and a lack of those moments. Two first round NIT exits just don't resonate like that.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: hairy worthen on November 30, 2019, 08:00:47 AM
Dwyane is a solid choice, but it's probably not fair to compare his tournament success with that of Markus.  Wade had two other NBA players along with him on that Final Four run,  and that team doesn't survive the first weekend without huge contributions from both. Markus has not been blessed with the quality of teammates as DWade.

Anyone who says Markus makes his teammates worse is a bona fide moron.
Nice argument, if you dont agree with someone just call him a moron. Makes me wonder who  the real moron is.

I am not one who thinks Marcus makes his teammates worse, but I can understand that thinking. How about explaining how MH makes his teammates better in every game.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 30, 2019, 08:04:36 AM
I used MJ as an example of someone who made his teammates better not as a comparison to MH. Do you really think MH has any chance of being anywhere near what MJ was because MH is "light years" ahead of MJ at this point in their careers? You are not very credible.

As an overall talent and basketball player no of course not. 

Mike was so selfish early in his NBA career. I remember him as the guy who learned to make others better as a necessity to finally get team success for his own legacy. 

Markus already seems more mature in that regard.

Look I’m not trying to pick on you, I just thought it was funny to think of MJ as the example. 
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Pakuni on November 30, 2019, 08:05:49 AM
Nice argument, if you dont agree with someone just call him a moron. Makes me wonder who  the real moron is.

I am not one who thinks Marcus makes his teammates worse, but I can understand that thinking. How about explaining how MH makes his teammates better in every game.

The real moron is anyone who thinks Markus makes his teammates worse. I thought we already established that.

How does he make his teammates better? By being the focal point of every defense MU has faced at least the past two seasons, creating space and opportunities for everyone else on the floor with him.

Now do tell, how does he make his teammates worse (since you understand that moronic thinking)?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 30, 2019, 08:06:23 AM
With that logic rowsey should be in your top 10.

I think there’s a big difference between Rowsey and a guy who could add another 900 points on to his existing record.

EDIT: Rowsey 1087, Howard 2131 and counting
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: hairy worthen on November 30, 2019, 08:08:44 AM
As an overall talent and basketball player no of course not. 

Mike was so selfish early in his NBA career. I remember him as the guy who learned to make others better as a necessity to finally get team success for his own legacy. 

Markus already seems more mature in that regard.

Look I’m not trying to pick on you, I just thought it was funny to think of MJ as the example.
MJ was the first one that came to mind as someone who made his teammates better. You are correct he wasnt that way in college or early in his pro career.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Pakuni on November 30, 2019, 08:08:52 AM
With that logic rowsey should be in your top 10.

Rowsey is 40th on MU's all-time scoring list.
How would the logic of including the program's top scorer of all time in its top 10 players dictate that the 40th scorer also belongs in the top 10?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2019, 08:13:22 AM
Brew
I scoff at Tony Smith being in top five conversation because that is laughable. Tony was nice player and had an outstanding senior year player, but not an all time great.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: hairy worthen on November 30, 2019, 08:16:36 AM
The real moron is anyone who thinks Markus makes his teammates worse. I thought we already established that.

How does he make his teammates better? By being the focal point of every defense MU has faced at least the past two seasons, creating space and opportunities for everyone else on the floor with him.

Now do tell, how does he make his teammates worse (since you understand that moronic thinking)?
Again I do not believe he makes his teammates worse. Improving spacing for your teammates only helps if you actually pass them the ball. Handling the ball the entire possession while your teammates stand there doesnt make them better. I didnt see much of that yesterday which is encouraging.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2019, 08:19:03 AM
If he made his teammates a ton better we would be world beaters, since he is the GOAT of MU ball. Sadly, his tenure has not made us world beaters.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: jsglow on November 30, 2019, 08:19:34 AM
I tend to agree with this analysis.

Don't get me wrong -- Markus is incredible and I'm glad we have him. He is fun to watch and God only knows where we would be without him. He is one of the all-time greats, no doubt, but GOAT, lets not get carried away.

Unless and until Marquette University strikes the name Dwyane Wade from all its records, no one else will be the GOAT. To replace Wade will require an unbelievable run at MU with, probably, a natty to boot. Markus is great but, think about it.

The next folks in line after Wade for GOAT are Butch Lee and Bo Ellis, Maurice Lucas, George Thompson, Jim Chones, Earl Tatum.

Agree, except for one very important omission.

Dean 'The Dream' Meminger.

Markus is a once in a generation scorer; perhaps one of the very best in all of NCAA hoops in this century.  But even he would admit that there aspects of his game that are far below superstar status.  He continues to work on them every day.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: CountryRoads on November 30, 2019, 08:22:11 AM
Imo, Wade’s GOAT status has a lot to do with his NBA success and fame. If he turned out to be a bust after the final four run, I think he would be further down many people’s list.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Its DJOver on November 30, 2019, 08:24:46 AM
You don't become the all time assists leader by a huge margin (only more untouchable record is Macs blocks) by having one good year.  Inflating the third or fourth option on a great 70s team should not take away from a great player that had little to no supporting cast.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: brewcity77 on November 30, 2019, 08:34:37 AM
Brew
I scoff at Tony Smith being in top five conversation because that is laughable. Tony was nice player and had an outstanding senior year player, but not an all time great.

I think it's hard to dismiss that team success factors in, though. If Smith was the best player on a Final Four team, like Wade or Lee, he gets more consideration. Similarly, Henry Ellenson had a great freshman year, but longevity and lack of team success would always keep him from a top-5, 10, or 20 list. Team and March success is part of what is remembered for all time greats.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2019, 08:35:15 AM
DJO

Wrong Tony. Maybe you should bow out of the discussion at this point.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2019, 08:42:13 AM
Air

The first time I saw Wade play in a game I said to my Dad we are watching the greatest talent, athlete ever to play at MU. The Kentucky game was exclamation point, but he was the greatest well before then to me.

Any discussion on greatest is 100% based off of MU time in my grading system. His NBA career takes him another level in regards to NBA greats, but nothing to do with my evaluation as college player.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Its DJOver on November 30, 2019, 08:42:50 AM
DJO

Wrong Tony. Maybe you should bow out of the discussion at this point.

Meacupla. Doesn't change my opinion and until you actually post your top 10 which will be wade, george and 8 players from the 70s I'll continue to think that you're incredibly biased towards all Al players and against anything Wojo.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: MU82 on November 30, 2019, 08:43:44 AM
Is there room for nuance here?

Markus already is the GSOAT -- Greatest Scorer of All Time. He will leave as the leading scorer in the history of a program that has produced a lot of great players, and he will be that by a wide, wide margin. Many of the players on most Scoopers' all-time top-10 or top-20 lists also played 4 years: Lee, Toone, Matthews, Tatum, McNeal, James, etc., and he will leave all of them in the dust. Not only that, he will end up with the top two PPG seasons in school history, and by a wide margin.

Think of all the great 4-year players in Big East history: Ewing, Mullin, Kittles, Kemba, Mourning, Floyd, Douglas, Pinckney, Coleman, Bell, Sealy, Barros, etc. Markus is going to end up with more points than all of them. His PPG will rival or surpass Iverson, Carmelo, Berry, Allen, Pearl, Hamilton, etc. There have been four 50-point games in Big East history and Markus Howard -- not Mullin, not Ewing, not Kemba, not Iverson, not Allen, not any of the guys who have gone on to be NBA stars -- has THREE of them!

I know he doesn't do many of the things that make a guy a great all-around player, but scoring is a premium skill in basketball, and he will leave college as the most elite scorer in the history of a great program and a great conference.

That he has played in only 2 NCAA tournament games and has won none obviously weighs on his GOAT candidacy. He was a role player in 2017, but he was the star in 2019, and he was not able to lift that team. Whether that was due to poor play, injury, teammates undermining him, bad coaching, lack of support, whatever ... pick your excuse, but sports history can be cruel, and he simply didn't get it done.

So when we rank him against all the MU all-timers who DID help their teams get it done -- Wade, Lee, Lucas, Ellis, Meminger, etc -- it's easy to see why he comes up short on a GOAT list.

Add in the one-dimensional-ness of his game, as well as the bias most Scoopers over 50 have to everything Al-related, and, again, it's easy to see why he comes up short.

Still, to dismiss scoring -- elite, never-before-seen scoring -- with a shrug and to say the guy who will hold our scoring record is not being even worthy of top-10 or, for some, top-20 MU status ... that seems wrong, too.

I mean, based on previous threads, there actually are folks here who would rank Sam Freakin' Hauser ahead of Markus. Based on ... what? ... all of Sam's great NCAA tournament performances?

So in some crazy ways, Markus Howard actually seems underrated by a pretty large swath of Scoopdom.

I was gonna put my top 10 here, but decided to start a new thread.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Silent Verbal on November 30, 2019, 09:07:41 AM
Only player in last 20 years with multiple 50 point games.

Has three of the four 50 point games in Big East history.

Along with Pete Maravich and Wayman Tisdale as only players in NCAA history with a 50 point game in three straight years.

Passed the Orlando Invitational three day scoring record of 73 in only two days with 91.

Did you actually just throw Markus’ Orlando Invitational scoring record out there as one of the reasons he should be considered MU’s GOAT?  If he held the Final Four scoring record, I could see it.  The BET scoring record?  Hell yeah, put that on his resume.  Even the Milwaukee Classic, I might nod my head in agreement and concede that, yes, some good teams did participate in that throughout the years.

But the Orlando Invitational?  A second rate Thanksgiving tournament that’s played in front of a crowd of 500 people who stopped by to watch a basketball game in between trips to Space Mountain and Epcot?  Where the single game scoring record was previously held by Matt freaking Carlino?  Now *that* is what I call prestigious!

Markus is the greatest scorer in the history of MU ball.  But people need to stop being butt hurt if individual posters leave him off their top 5 or 10 or whatever lists. 
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 30, 2019, 09:18:22 AM
Did you actually just throw Markus’ Orlando Invitational scoring record out there as one of the reasons he should be considered MU’s GOAT? .

It was a list of things he accomplished with his game yesterday.

Obviously that item is at the bottom of the career resume.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Its DJOver on November 30, 2019, 09:27:12 AM
Breaking a three game tournament scoring record in 2 games is noteworthy no matter the overall level of competition.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: dgies9156 on November 30, 2019, 10:18:03 AM
earl tatum was great, but imho. Markus has passed him on that list. Earl averaged 12 points a game and never shot over 50%.

Brother Dawg:

I understand your thought on this one. Tatum played with some of the truly greatest Warriors. He never over 12 points because, as I am sure you recall, we never scored much over 60 in those games. Our game was deliberate, no shot clocks and no there point lines.

The game is different now. I can see the argument for Markus vis a vi Tatum but Tatum played better defense and was part of a national runner up.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 30, 2019, 10:19:35 AM
If you are basing it on tournament success, Dwyane Wade would have won ZERO tournament games if Marquette didn’t sneak by Holy Cross thanks to 29 points from Travis Diener.

Just saying.

“If” just saying
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 4everwarriors on November 30, 2019, 10:45:43 AM
Howard will make money somewhere after MU playing ball. Nice player, too bad he doesn't have another 6 inches. But, he isn't in the conversation with #24, #14, #15, #22, #3, #31, #20, or even #10.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: real chili 83 on November 30, 2019, 11:13:25 AM
Howard will make money somewhere after MU playing ball. Nice player, too bad he doesn't have another 6 inches. But, he isn't in the conversation with #24, #14, #15, #22, #3, #31, #20, or even #10.

I question your fandom.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on November 30, 2019, 11:17:37 AM
Only player in last 20 years with multiple 50 point games.

Has three of the four 50 point games in Big East history.

Along with Pete Maravich and Wayman Tisdale as only players in NCAA history with a 50 point game in three straight years.

Passed the Orlando Invitational three day scoring record of 73 in only two days with 91.

Unsubscribe.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 4everwarriors on November 30, 2019, 11:22:23 AM
Thanks, Rock
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on November 30, 2019, 11:23:41 AM
Howard will make money somewhere after MU playing ball. Nice player, too bad he doesn't have another 6 inches. But, he isn't in the conversation with #24, #14, #15, #22, #3, #31, #20, or even #10.

Ok boomer.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on November 30, 2019, 11:24:13 AM
Howard will make money somewhere after MU playing ball. Nice player, too bad he doesn't have another 6 inches. But, he isn't in the conversation with #24, #14, #15, #22, #3, #31, #20, or even #10.

Another 6" and you could be making money on xhamster.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Not A Serious Person on November 30, 2019, 04:18:20 PM
Dwyane is a solid choice, but it's probably not fair to compare his tournament success with that of Markus.  Wade had two other NBA players along with him on that Final Four run,  and that team doesn't survive the first weekend without huge contributions from both. Markus has not been blessed with the quality of teammates as DWade.

Anyone who says Markus makes his teammates worse is a bona fide moron.

I believe that two brothers from Steven's Point said this.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on November 30, 2019, 04:20:40 PM
ZFB

Nice xhamster shout out.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: warriorchick on November 30, 2019, 05:07:45 PM
There is a choice missing:

Potentially. Let's see how this season plays out.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 1SE on November 30, 2019, 06:03:41 PM
There is a choice missing:

Potentially. Let's see how this season plays out.

Isn't that the "deep tourney run"? If we flame out in the first row (or miss) I didn't think a year where he just piles on points would change anyone's mind (who either does or doesn't think he is GOAT).

I was born in the early 80s so most of the other GOATers are before my time and I can't really compare, but I was also at MU during the Wade years and I can't see how anyone thinks Markus is "miles behind" Wade. I brought this up last time we had this discussion but look at their stats...

Wade: Career 49.4% FG, 33.3% 3pt, 6.5 reb, 3.9 ast, 2.3 st, 1.2 blk, 3.1 to, 19.7 ppg.

Markus: Career 45.3% FG, 43.7% 3pt, 3.1 reb, 3.0 ast, 0.9 st, 0.1 blk, 3.1 to, 20.3 ppg.

So basically Wade was 3.5 rebounds, an assist, a steal and a block better. Markus is a much better 3-ball shooter. But as others have noted, I also think longevity matters. And again, Wade had a better supporting cast. All in all I think those numbers are mostly a wash.

What Wade has was the FF run and, arguably, the single greatest MU performance of all time. If Markus can conjure up something similar in the tourney this year I'd say they are on par. 
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Mutaman on November 30, 2019, 06:06:41 PM

The next folks in line after Wade for GOAT are Butch Lee and Bo Ellis, Maurice Lucas, George Thompson, Jim Chones, Earl Tatum.

Meminger: 78-9 record over his career including a 46-0 mark at the Milwaukee Arena. Lets get serious.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jockey on November 30, 2019, 06:09:06 PM
Howard will make money somewhere after MU playing ball. Nice player, too bad he doesn't have another 6 inches. But, he isn't in the conversation with #24, #14, #15, #22, #3, #31, #20, or even #10.

Utter nonsense.

Of course it depends if you are looking at their entire career - including NBA - or just their time at MU. I thought the premise was their time at MU.

Anybody who doesn't think Wade is the greatest that MU has produced is nuts. It's a slam dunk. But for just their time at MU? Markus can easily claim to be in the running for #1. Had Chones stayed for 3 years, I think he would be a lock for #1.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on November 30, 2019, 06:12:53 PM
Couldn’t win the Big East conference regular season title last year (it was handed to them in a silver platter) and still has 0 NCAA tournament wins. The kid can score know doubt. However truly GREAT players win championships... Howard hasn’t even come close.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jockey on November 30, 2019, 06:13:50 PM
Meminger: 78-9 record over his career including a 46-0 mark at the Milwaukee Arena. Lets get serious.

Dean was a great college player. But ... he was the best player on MU only 1 of his 3 years. And still a top 5 guy.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jockey on November 30, 2019, 06:15:21 PM
Couldn’t win the Big East conference regular season title last year (it was handed to them in a silver platter) and still has 0 NCAA tournament wins. The kid can score know doubt. However truly GREAT players win championships... Howard hasn’t even come close.


So you are saying that Lee and Ellis are the only true great players from MU's long history? Sounds crazy to me.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Elonsmusk on November 30, 2019, 06:17:22 PM
Markus in my Top 5, with relevant grading back to 1980.  What people fail to consider is the caliber of the MU coach.  In my view, Wojo is easily the weakest MU coach out of Al, Crean, Buzz, and its not even close.

If Markus were coached by any of the above guys, I suspect he'd have 4-8 NCAA wins already on his resume.



Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: WarriorFan on November 30, 2019, 06:22:42 PM
I look at it as a lifetime body of work and I'm willing to keep Markus on the waiting list depending on how he proceeds in life.  For now D.Wade remains the MU GOAT, and there are a lot of guys close which make even the top 10 difficult.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on November 30, 2019, 06:32:10 PM
Meminger: 78-9 record over his career including a 46-0 mark at the Milwaukee Arena. Lets get serious.

For ancient people like Mutaman, he will say Meminger.

For mid age guys, probably Wade

Younger fans will say Markus.


Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jay Bee on November 30, 2019, 07:11:28 PM
Wade: Career 49.4% FG, 33.3% 3pt, 6.5 reb, 3.9 ast, 2.3 st, 1.2 blk, 3.1 to, 19.7 ppg.

Markus: Career 45.3% FG, 43.7% 3pt, 3.1 reb, 3.0 ast, 0.9 st, 0.1 blk, 3.1 to, 20.3 ppg.

FG% is not relevant and per game averages aren't really, either.

Fun numbers... eFG%.. Markus 56.7% career.. Wade.. 51.1% career.. both with ultra-high usages.

Another fun number... in year 1, Markus had a FD/40 of 3.7 and a FTR of 23.4%.. year 2, 4.2 and 21.8%

Before the 2018-19 season, we noted at http://latenighthoops.com/quick-random-preseason-thoughts-on-marquette/#.XeMSjFVKjIU that, "There are two other areas where we believe Markus can make meaningful improvements....The second is getting to the line. His brother Jordan (at Central Arkansas) continued to improve each year at drawing fouls and getting to the free throw stripe, and we believe this is a year where Markus can make a nice jump. Much of the improvement will come from Howard being a relentless worker, but he may also get an edge from being viewed as a respected, veteran star in the Big East by referees instead of a young, undersized guard."

In year 3, he was at 7.2 (#5 in the nation) and 42.5%. This year, 9.3 (#1) and 51.4%. Simply amazing.

Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on November 30, 2019, 07:29:13 PM

So you are saying that Lee and Ellis are the only true great players from MU's long history? Sounds crazy to me.

Ok, how about multiple sweet 16s or an elite 8?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 30, 2019, 07:32:51 PM
Markus is a special player and we are lucky to witness his accomplishments.

Scoring more points wont improve that sentiment across the fan base...and I bet he knows that. 
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 4everwarriors on November 30, 2019, 07:37:20 PM
If I told Brandy the sky was blue, he'd dispute it. Just sayin', hey?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 30, 2019, 07:42:17 PM
Nm
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: rocket surgeon on November 30, 2019, 08:14:53 PM
Another 6" and you could be making money on xhamster.


   ouchie!!

 enjoyed watching all of the aforementioned fellas.  for the size(no pun intended) of our school and our ability to recruit against the big boys(once again, no pun intended) MU sure has put out some good ones

ok, commence
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on November 30, 2019, 08:38:06 PM
I love Markus. Probably makes my top 10, maybe top 5. He's nowhere near Wade at the moment IMHO.

Only way Markus gets there is if he Kemba Walkers us to the championship game
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 30, 2019, 08:43:48 PM
A lot of romanticism with some of the older players here. Al would have loved Markus.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jockey on November 30, 2019, 08:45:59 PM
I look at it as a lifetime body of work and I'm willing to keep Markus on the waiting list depending on how he proceeds in life.  For now D.Wade remains the MU GOAT, and there are a lot of guys close which make even the top 10 difficult.

I think you and many others look at it as a lifetime. Wade is undeniably first from that viewpoint. I was looking at it as just the time they were at MU.

But every player mentioned had a better supporting cast than Markus.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Eldon on November 30, 2019, 08:48:04 PM
I love Markus. Probably makes my top 10, maybe top 5. He's nowhere near Wade at the moment IMHO.

Only way Markus gets there is if he Kemba Walkers us to the championship game

+1

Fair or not (e.g., needing to consider quality of the coach), it's all about the Ws, and especially Ws in March.

Before anyone responds with "crapshoot," let me say that Ws in the regular season lead to a higher seed, which increases the probability of rolling a 7 or 11 at the table.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: dgies9156 on November 30, 2019, 09:10:03 PM
Meminger: 78-9 record over his career including a 46-0 mark at the Milwaukee Arena. Lets get serious.

OK, first off, I'm an older Warrior. I have seen everyone from Meminger to Markus. From Thompson to Theo.

You're probably right, Dean the Dream should be on the all-time GOAT list. He was Al's quarterback.

Here's a novel thought: Let's enjoy Markus while we have him. Cheer him on, hope for the best and be thankful we have experienced him for four years. Hopefully, he and the NCAA second round introduce themselves to each other. But either way, he is fun to watch and a great ballplayer.

And yes, this Warrior would agree: Al would have loved him!
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: MU82 on November 30, 2019, 09:31:30 PM
If we get to the FF this year, for some Scoopers it'll be, "Wojo and Markus only get to the easy Final Fours. The Hausers would have done it better, especially if they were coached by Al."
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on November 30, 2019, 09:35:35 PM
Crean got to a final four and some Scoopers think he’s the Antichrist.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 30, 2019, 09:38:30 PM
Crean got to a final four and some Scoopers think he’s the Antichrist.

No just a complete d bag n a very odd human being with the personality of a tennis ball
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 30, 2019, 09:51:49 PM
A lot of romanticism with some of the older players here. Al would have loved Markus.

I don't think players like Meminger, Chones, Bo, Mo and Butch Lee are being romanticized at all. They were complete players, and all but Butch were outstanding on both ends of the court.

Markus is an elite shooter/scorer. When he's hitting on all cylinders he's on a par with DWade as MU's most exciting player.  But he's an average at best passer, his handle is loose and he's below average on defense. On nights when his shot isn't falling he has little (sometimes less than little) to contribute. One skill, even when it's off the charts, doesn't put him in the GOAT conversation for me - I think he's the one being a little romanticized.

Al would have loved him when he was announcing. He loved "exciting" from the booth. But as a coach Al was a dictator who valued discipline. Those head down drives through the trees resulting in blocked shots/turnovers just wouldn't have been tolerated by Al.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 30, 2019, 10:04:34 PM
There is a choice missing:

Potentially. Let's see how this season plays out.

This is correct.  We need to see how this season plays out.   A final four on the back of Markus and even the 70s boys will agree he is at least top five (national championship and he’s the GOAT). If they don’t at that point, we’ll excuse it as early dementia.

However, I do not consider a final four likely and tournament success is important when talking about the “greats from MU”.

He will be in my top ten regardless for obliterating the scoring record and for potentially being the Big East’s all time leading scorer.  I understand why others might not feel that way now.  I feel ten years from now people will look on his career less harshly.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 30, 2019, 10:08:37 PM
If we get to the FF this year, for some Scoopers it'll be, "Wojo and Markus only get to the easy Final Fours. The Hausers would have done it better, especially if they were coached by Al."

Cheap shot, Mike.

On a par with saying If we finish last in the Big East this year for some Scoopers it'll be, "Howard's the GOAT, Big East was a bear this year, just wait until next year when Wojo gets to coach his Fab 5 - he'll make us forget about Al".

Both preposterous.

Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Lennys Tap on November 30, 2019, 10:13:30 PM
No just a complete d bag n a very odd human being with the personality of a tennis ball

Pay the man, Shirley!
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on November 30, 2019, 10:28:46 PM
No just a complete d bag n a very odd human being with the personality of a tennis ball

Could say the same thing about Buzz, who didn’t get to the Final Four and looks like a tennis ball.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on December 01, 2019, 02:58:25 AM
TAMU

If Howard pulls off a Kemba, it would not change my opinion of Howard’s place in history. My criteria is not necessarily based off individual games or seasons, it is based off the overall collection of skills the player possesses, ball IQ and athleticism. Howard scoring 50 a game this season does not overcome his shortcomings, IMO.
Would add, it would be a helluva of a season and story to tell our grandkids, but it seems unlikely to me.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 1SE on December 01, 2019, 04:15:25 AM
Could say the same thing about Buzz, who didn’t get to the Final Four and looks like a tennis ball.

This is funny. One out of 4160 posts ain't bad.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 01, 2019, 06:46:27 AM
I don't think players like Meminger, Chones, Bo, Mo and Butch Lee are being romanticized at all. They were complete players, and all but Butch were outstanding on both ends of the court.

Markus is an elite shooter/scorer. When he's hitting on all cylinders he's on a par with DWade as MU's most exciting player.  But he's an average at best passer, his handle is loose and he's below average on defense. On nights when his shot isn't falling he has little (sometimes less than little) to contribute. One skill, even when it's off the charts, doesn't put him in the GOAT conversation for me - I think he's the one being a little romanticized.

Al would have loved him when he was announcing. He loved "exciting" from the booth. But as a coach Al was a dictator who valued discipline. Those head down drives through the trees resulting in blocked shots/turnovers just wouldn't have been tolerated by Al.


As I said - over romanticized.  Markus is a first team All American player.  An elite scorer who is nowhere near as difficient as you portray him.  He would have been great in any Marquette era.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 01, 2019, 06:54:32 AM
TAMU

If Howard pulls off a Kemba, it would not change my opinion of Howard’s place in history.


LOL, what?  If he doesn't single handedly lead MU to a title it would keep MH out of your top ten all time?

It's 2019.  Not 1972.  It's time to wake up.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Shooter McGavin on December 01, 2019, 07:18:29 AM
Goose be careful about making declarative statements for which you will need to back peddle on later.  If Markus were to lead MU to a final four or championship it would be so obvious that he would be top 5 you would have to dig yourself out of a cavernous hole. Having said that, I do understand it is probably not going to happen and you are on firm ground for now.  NCAA success is very important when discussing the greats.  It just a fact of NCAA life.

Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 01, 2019, 07:32:11 AM
TAMU

If Howard pulls off a Kemba, it would not change my opinion of Howard’s place in history. My criteria is not necessarily based off individual games or seasons, it is based off the overall collection of skills the player possesses, ball IQ and athleticism. Howard scoring 50 a game this season does not overcome his shortcomings, IMO.
Would add, it would be a helluva of a season and story to tell our grandkids, but it seems unlikely to me.

So does performance not actually matter?  Just your eye test? That's fine if it does,  I just think we are having different conversations.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 🏀 on December 01, 2019, 07:41:04 AM
Man, if these guys from the 70s were such complete players with the highest IQs, often played on the same teams and led by the best coach off all-time, you’d think they would’ve won more, aina?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 01, 2019, 07:45:59 AM
To be fair, the players of the 1970s have two things Markus doesn't have.  An elite level coach and elite level teammates.  What NBA-quality teammates does Markus have on this team?  Right now, I don't see any.  Sam and Joey could have been, but you know, they wrote letters.  A coach like Al would have handled that issue better than Wojo did.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 01, 2019, 07:47:17 AM
It just a fact of NCAA life sports.

FIFY
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 🏀 on December 01, 2019, 07:47:24 AM
To be fair, the players of the 1970s have two things Markus doesn't have.  An elite level coach and elite level teammates.  What NBA-quality teammates does Markus have on this team?  Right now, I don't see any.  Sam and Joey could have been, but you know, they wrote letters.  A coach like Al would have handled that issue better than Wojo did.

The Joey v. Al fist fight wouldn’t have lasted long, vanilla soft serve.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on December 01, 2019, 07:49:15 AM
Man, if these guys from the 70s were such complete players with the highest IQs, often played on the same teams and led by the best coach off all-time, you’d think they would’ve won more, aina?

I think Al’s ego cost Marquette a second National Championship.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on December 01, 2019, 07:59:04 AM
TAMU

If Howard pulls a Kemba, it will be the single greatest season ever by an MU player..
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on December 01, 2019, 08:01:22 AM
TAMU

If Howard pulls a Kemba, it will be the single greatest season ever by an MU player..

And you’ve stated you still wouldn’t have him in your top 10 which seems crazy to me.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 4everwarriors on December 01, 2019, 08:04:32 AM
I think Al’s ego cost Marquette a second National Championship.


Doubt it. Al liked to tell that story. But, if you studied the Al years, he frequently fell on his sword to take the pressure off his players. MU was not going to beat NC State with David Thompson in Greensboro in 1974.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 🏀 on December 01, 2019, 08:06:51 AM

Doubt it. Al likes to tell tell story. But, if you studied the Al years, he frequently fell on his sword to take the pressure off his players. MU was not going to beat NC State with David Thompson in Greensboro in 1974.

How much money do you think this cost MU in the long run? Two national championships looks a lot better on Marquette’s resume than one.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on December 01, 2019, 08:13:38 AM
NC State would have beaten us 9 out of 10 times, especially in NC. Al’s ego did not cost MU the game. In similar situation, IU was a dream team and Al’s antics did not cost us that game.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: brewcity77 on December 01, 2019, 08:18:24 AM
So if Markus drags this team to a Big East Tournament and NCAA Tournament title while being named Most Outstanding Player of the NCAAs & earning a first team All-American slot he wouldn't crack the top ten? That's funny.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 08:20:57 AM
Man, if these guys from the 70s were such complete players with the highest IQs, often played on the same teams and led by the best coach off all-time, you’d think they would’ve won more, aina?

The last 10 years of Al tenure we were the second best program in the country - behind only UCLA and John Wooden, better than Dean Smith and N Carolina, Kentucky, Indiana, etc. We were a top 10 team every year. We declined a bid one year and won what was still a prestigious NIT tournament. In the other 9 we won 1 title, were runner up once and had multiple elite 8s. Our WORST finish in those years was the Sweet 16. Those 10 years produced 10 of the best 12 teams in Marquette history.

Look, I get that those who didn't experience it don't have the attachment to that era that we old farts have - history isn't as exciting as living something. I wish that all Scoopers would could have gone through it.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 🏀 on December 01, 2019, 08:25:34 AM
The last 10 years of Al tenure we were the second best program in the country - behind only UCLA and John Wooden, better than Dean Smith and N Carolina, Kentucky, Indiana, etc. We were a top 10 team every year. We declined a bid one year and won what was still a prestigious NIT tournament. In the other 9 we won 1 title, were runner up once and had multiple elite 8s. Our WORST finish in those years was the Sweet 16. Those 10 years produced 10 of the best 12 teams in Marquette history.

Look, I get that those who didn't experience it don't have the attachment to that era that we old farts have - history isn't as exciting as living something. I wish that all Scoopers would could have gone through it.

Lenny

I know you get my point, just pointing out some if the gate keeping of Markus going on.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Bad_Reporter on December 01, 2019, 08:26:16 AM
The last 10 years of Al tenure we were the second best program in the country - behind only UCLA and John Wooden, better than Dean Smith and N Carolina, Kentucky, Indiana, etc. We were a top 10 team every year. We declined a bid one year and won what was still a prestigious NIT tournament. In the other 9 we won 1 title, were runner up once and had multiple elite 8s. Our WORST finish in those years was the Sweet 16. Those 10 years produced 10 of the best 12 teams in Marquette history.

Look, I get that those who didn't experience it don't have the attachment to that era that we old farts have - history isn't as exciting as living something. I wish that all Scoopers would could have gone through it.

But it’s a #crapshoot
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 🏀 on December 01, 2019, 08:26:41 AM
NC State would have beaten us 9 out of 10 times, especially in NC. Al’s ego did not cost MU the game. In similar situation, IU was a dream team and Al’s antics did not cost us that game.

Al’s decision doesn’t age well.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 08:28:12 AM

Doubt it. Al liked to tell that story. But, if you studied the Al years, he frequently fell on his sword to take the pressure off his players. MU was not going to beat NC State with David Thompson in Greensboro in 1974.

Agree, Doc. 70-71 and 71-72 were the other years we could have (should have?) won the title. 27-0 when the refs stole that S16 game vs Ohio St and 22-0 when Chones went pro.

Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on December 01, 2019, 08:29:43 AM
So you guys are saying Al was afraid to play NC State so he dodged the tournament?

That’s an even worse look.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Silent Verbal on December 01, 2019, 08:35:47 AM
So you guys are saying Al was afraid to play NC State so he dodged the tournament?

That’s an even worse look.

This is a no good, very bad post.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 01, 2019, 08:40:14 AM
So you guys are saying Al was afraid to play NC State so he dodged the tournament?

That’s an even worse look.


No, they are talking about the finals loss in 1974.  I don't think they woudl have won the NCAA in 1970. 
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on December 01, 2019, 08:42:27 AM

No, they are talking about the finals loss in 1974.  I don't think they woudl have won the NCAA in 1970.

That makes more sense. Al didn’t seem like a guy afraid of a fight.

I’m talking about 1970. His ego cost him a nice shot at a National Championship.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on December 01, 2019, 08:44:20 AM
PTM
Gate keeping of Markus? My evaluation of Howard has zero to do with the Al era. I simply believe he is one dimensional, but awfully good at that one skill. What many on here fail to realize, I hope Wojo recruits guys that put Al’s guys on ice. Sadly, for over 40 years the talent has not surpassed a ten year run in program history.
Nothing would make me happier than MU recruiting a guy that makes me forget about Bo or Butch. I have said countless times that I am tired of the Al era in regards how it rammed down on our throats by MU. Hopefully somewhere down the line a new era is romanticized by younger fans. If younger fans want to get excited about Howard averaging 30, without a win in March, go for it and embrace it.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 🏀 on December 01, 2019, 08:47:36 AM
PTM
Gate keeping of Markus? My evaluation of Howard has zero to do with the Al era. I simply believe he is one dimensional, but awfully good at that one skill. What many on here fail to realize, I hope Wojo recruits guys that put Al’s guys on ice. Sadly, for over 40 years the talent has not surpassed a ten year run in program history.
Nothing would make me happier than MU recruiting a guy that makes me forget about Bo or Butch. I have said countless times that I am tired of the Al era in regards how it rammed down on our throats by MU. Hopefully somewhere down the line a new era is romanticized by younger fans. If younger fans want to get excited about Howard averaging 30, without a win in March, go for it and embrace it.

Yep.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on December 01, 2019, 08:51:16 AM
If younger fans want to get excited about Howard averaging 30, without a win in March, go for it and embrace it.

But you have said you wouldn’t change your view of Markus even with March success.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: brewcity77 on December 01, 2019, 08:51:16 AM
If younger fans want to get excited about Howard averaging 30, without a win in March, go for it and embrace it.

This is goalpost shifting. A "Kemba like run" would have to be at least a Big East Final & Final Four appearance while winning at least one. Any reference to Kemba's success is talking about March, not what he did while leading UConn to a 9-9, tied for 11th in the league finish.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 08:51:52 AM
So if Markus drags this team to a Big East Tournament and NCAA Tournament title while being named Most Outstanding Player of the NCAAs & earning a first team All-American slot he wouldn't crack the top ten? That's funny.

I agree 100% with this.

That said, the question is where he stands now, not playing the "What if?" game.

One more point that hasn't been brought up - the state of college basketball. As Wades points out in another thread, the level of play is not good. The best players leave after one year, so an outstanding player like Markus who sticks around for 4 years has a tremendous advantage that those guys in the 70s didn't have. A lot of the best players who arrived in college with Markus (and a year or two after him) are gone.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 01, 2019, 08:52:21 AM
That makes more sense. Al didn’t seem like a guy afraid of a fight.

I’m talking about 1970. His ego cost him a nice shot at a National Championship.


Maybe.  The Final Four that year included four of the top five ranked teams.  And in reality, the midwest region would have been easier for Marquette with only a New Mexico State team to beat.  The mideast was loaded with Kentucky, Jacksonville and Notre Dame.  It really was a dumb decision, but I don't think it cost them a title.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TallTitan34 on December 01, 2019, 08:57:27 AM

Maybe.  The Final Four that year included four of the top five ranked teams.  And in reality, the midwest region would have been easier for Marquette with only a New Mexico State team to beat.  The mideast was loaded with Kentucky, Jacksonville and Notre Dame.  It really was a dumb decision, but I don't think it cost them a title.

Sure would have liked to see a 22-3 team try at least.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 🏀 on December 01, 2019, 09:00:25 AM
I agree 100% with this.

That said, the question is where he stands now, not playing the "What if?" game.

One more point that hasn't been brought up - the state of college basketball. As Wades points out in another thread, the level of play is not good. The best players leave after one year, so an outstanding player like Markus who sticks around for 4 years has a tremendous advantage that those guys in the 70s didn't have. A lot of the best players who arrived in college with Markus (and a year or two after him) are gone.

Does a single 70’s team stay intact in today’s game though? I think that’s the single largest advantage of the era.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 01, 2019, 09:08:02 AM
Sure would have liked to see a 22-3 team try at least.


That schedule was as soft as a marshmellow.  They played only two teams that made the NCAA tournament. (Won at home v. Drake and lost at Notre Dame)  I believe those were the only two teams that were ranked at any point of the year. 
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on December 01, 2019, 09:09:14 AM
PTM

Yep is right. I am tired of talking about success of a lifetime ago. Never want to forget a great time in my life, but would love another era of greatness. I have said countless times that MU should move on from the Al era.
I was not around, or barely around, for the Packer Lombardi era and love that we have recent Packer success to embrace. I love that we compare three all time great QB’s and debate which is better. To date, aside from Wade, I do not believe MU has provided the on court success to make old guys forget Al and his players.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jay Bee on December 01, 2019, 09:20:56 AM
A lot of the best players who arrived in college with Markus (and a year or two after him) are gone.

His freshman year, the One Trick Pony hit 54.7% of his trey attempts - tops in the nation.

Ppl complained about lack of a floater and ability to drive

In year two they wanted more trips to the line

Markus has continued to evolve

#OTP
#M2N
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: brewcity77 on December 01, 2019, 09:21:00 AM
That said, the question is where he stands now, not playing the "What if?" game.

Except TAMU very much introduced the "what if" with the Kemba reference, and I think this response is just crazy (in that Howard still wouldn't make the MU all time top-10).

If Howard pulls off a Kemba, it would not change my opinion of Howard’s place in history.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Galway Eagle on December 01, 2019, 09:24:47 AM

That schedule was as soft as a marshmellow.  They played only two teams that made the NCAA tournament. (Won at home v. Drake and lost at Notre Dame)  I believe those were the only two teams that were ranked at any point of the year.

I've pointed this out on here before regarding a lot of the Al seasons and got the "you don't have the life experience to understand" response.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: nyg on December 01, 2019, 09:28:09 AM
PTM

Yep is right. I am tired of talking about success of a lifetime ago. Never want to forget a great time in my life, but would love another era of greatness. I have said countless times that MU should move on from the Al era.
I was not around, or barely around, for the Packer Lombardi era and love that we have recent Packer success to embrace. I love that we compare three all time great QB’s and debate which is better. To date, aside from Wade, I do not believe MU has provided the on court success to make old guys forget Al and his players.

If I recall correctly, weren't you in elementary school at the time of the Al era and success.  You must have a great memory, I can't remember anything from my elementary school time, neverless basketball players names, skill sets, etc.   Good for you. 
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 09:33:50 AM
Does a single 70’s team stay intact in today’s game though? I think that’s the single largest advantage of the era.

Chones left before the tournament during his junior year. We were 22-0 (after going 28-1 the previous year) with a solid shot at a title. And if he stays his senior year, 1973 looks good, too. In '74 we lost the championship game. Lucas left and cost us a real shot in '75. In '76 we were the 2nd best team in the country, 26-1 when Indiana's 32-0 team beat us in the regional finals. And in '77 we won it all. While we lost Chones and Lucas, teams like UCLA and Indiana lost nobody.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: nyg on December 01, 2019, 09:36:59 AM
Chones left before the tournament during his junior year. We were 22-0 (after going 28-1 the previous year) with a solid shot at a title. And if he stays his senior year, 1973 looks good, too. In '74 we lost the championship game. Lucas left and cost us a real shot in '75. In '76 we were the 2nd best team in the country, 26-1 when Indiana's 32-0 team beat us in the regional finals. And in '77 we won it all. While we lost Chones and Lucas, teams like UCLA and Indiana lost nobody.

Don't forget Larry McNeil leaving, he left in between Chones and Lucas. 
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 09:42:56 AM
His freshman year, the One Trick Pony hit 54.7% of his trey attempts - tops in the nation.

Ppl complained about lack of a floater and ability to drive

In year two they wanted more trips to the line

Markus has continued to evolve

#OTP
#M2N

Markus arrived as an elite shooter. Now he's also an elite scorer. He's also better at his weaknesses (defense, ball handling, court vision). He's evolved a lot.

That said, much of the top talent from his class and the next two classes aren't playing in college any more. That makes things a little easier for an experienced player.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 09:44:30 AM
Don't forget Larry McNeil leaving, he left in between Chones and Lucas.

True. If McNeil doesn't leave maybe we beat NC State in that title game. We were the only top program affected by early departures in that era IIRC.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jay Bee on December 01, 2019, 09:52:41 AM
Markus arrived as an elite shooter. Now he's also an elite scorer. He's also better at his weaknesses (defense, ball handling, court vision). He's evolved a lot.

That said, much of the top talent from his class and the next two classes aren't playing in college any more. That makes things a little easier for an experienced player.

He's still the youngest!

BTW, Maryland's star is 4-year guy Anthony Cowen. The 22-year old Cowen's highest assist rate coming into this year was 26.9%... the 20-year old #OTP was higher than that last season.. yet more evolution.

Plenty of 4-year players in our conference... see Powell, Diallo and all of crappy Providence.. Charlie Moore at DePaul.. tyrique and gooden at X, Kamar at Butler, etc etc... let's not overstate "it's easy for him because he's a rare senior"
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Its DJOver on December 01, 2019, 09:56:49 AM
Lets also not diminish the overall growth of CBB.  It has had it's faults, but stuff like USA Basketball/AAU development in High School has raised the overall level of play across the board.

Not meant as a slight at the older players, but imagine how much better Chones would have been coming in if he'd been going up against the best in the Midwest/country rather than just the tallest high schooler from the farm town down the road?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jockey on December 01, 2019, 10:01:20 AM
So does performance not actually matter?  Just your eye test? That's fine if it does,  I just think we are having different conversations.

Smartest post here. We all have our own criteria. Like a couple others, I am partial to the old time guys. I loved Meminger, but as I said earlier, he was not even the best player on his own team two of the three years he was here. How could he be in the conversation for GOAT?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jockey on December 01, 2019, 10:06:47 AM
Man, if these guys from the 70s were such complete players with the highest IQs, often played on the same teams and led by the best coach off all-time, you’d think they would’ve won more, aina?

They were top 5-10 or better almost every year. But Al used a system that could not be successful now. He generally recruited just one star a year. And he always tried to feature his senior star.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 79Warrior on December 01, 2019, 10:08:26 AM
They were top 5-10 or better almost every year. But Al used a system that could not be successful now. He generally recruited just one star a year. And he always tried to feature his senior star.

Not to mention,  Freshmen were ineligible for part of his career.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 10:09:47 AM
He's still the youngest!

BTW, Maryland's star is 4-year guy Anthony Cowen. The 22-year old Cowen's highest assist rate coming into this year was 26.9%... the 20-year old #OTP was higher than that last season.. yet more evolution.

Plenty of 4-year players in our conference... see Powell, Diallo and all of crappy Providence.. Charlie Moore at DePaul.. tyrique and gooden at X, Kamar at Butler, etc etc... let's not overstate "it's easy for him because he's a rare senior"

JB

Never said "easy" but there's no doubt it's easier being POY or an All American with guys like Zion Williamson, Lonzo Ball, Ja Morant, etc., etc., etc., out of the picture.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jockey on December 01, 2019, 10:20:34 AM
NC State would have beaten us 9 out of 10 times, especially in NC. Al’s ego did not cost MU the game. In similar situation, IU was a dream team and Al’s antics did not cost us that game.

Goose,
Very interesting post. Even though Thompson was one of the greatest players ever, I though it was Burleson who was the difference.


But here's the interesting part. You said we would lose 9 out of 10 times, yet you have 3 of the Warriors from that game on your GOAT list. Lloyd Walton who lasted 5 years in the NBA also was on the team. I think that shows your bias toward the old guys (which I admit I have as well as they comprise almost my entire list of my faves).

What I am saying is that I think you greatly undervalue MH. He was a pretty good player his first two years, though not worthy of being discussed in a topic like this. But he will finish his career as a two-time All-American. I have a hard time figuring out how he might barely make your top 20.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 10:31:43 AM
The last 10 years of Al tenure we were the second best program in the country - behind only UCLA and John Wooden, better than Dean Smith and N Carolina, Kentucky, Indiana, etc. We were a top 10 team every year. We declined a bid one year and won what was still a prestigious NIT tournament. In the other 9 we won 1 title, were runner up once and had multiple elite 8s. Our WORST finish in those years was the Sweet 16. Those 10 years produced 10 of the best 12 teams in Marquette history.

Look, I get that those who didn't experience it don't have the attachment to that era that we old farts have - history isn't as exciting as living something. I wish that all Scoopers would could have gone through it.

That claim can be made and is true in wins and losses, but it is subjective overall.  Soft schedule, if you believe in rankings others can make a claim and same with tournament wins.  We were very very good, as were others.

It’s also why I don’t understand why the old dudes don’t acknowledge some programs are great because they win regardless of the coach, others were great because of the coach.  MU has great history, but the pinnacle was because of one guy who isn’t walking through that door again.  Which is why it drives me crazy that so many of you want to change coaches like underwear. 
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 10:33:29 AM
But it’s a #crapshoot

It is ask Hank 1978.  Ask Al how his best teams never won it, he said he had 4 or 5 better teams than the one that actually won it.  Absolutely a crapshoot.  How’s piloting these days?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 10:49:08 AM
PTM
Gate keeping of Markus? My evaluation of Howard has zero to do with the Al era. I simply believe he is one dimensional, but awfully good at that one skill. What many on here fail to realize, I hope Wojo recruits guys that put Al’s guys on ice. Sadly, for over 40 years the talent has not surpassed a ten year run in program history.
Nothing would make me happier than MU recruiting a guy that makes me forget about Bo or Butch. I have said countless times that I am tired of the Al era in regards how it rammed down on our throats by MU. Hopefully somewhere down the line a new era is romanticized by younger fans. If younger fans want to get excited about Howard averaging 30, without a win in March, go for it and embrace it.

Correct, because Al isn’t walking through that door anymore.  MU was great in that 10 year run because of Al.  He’s gone.  We need to stop comparing ourselves to a once in a lifetime era.  MU isn’t that kind of school.  We can still be very good, but location, academics, no football, etc, in today’s world make getting back to that magical run almost if not virtually impossible.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on December 01, 2019, 10:49:32 AM
nyg

You recall correctly on my age. That said, I attended 81 of the 82 home game winning streak. Only miss was a ND against Austin Carr that Goose stones him. Probably attended over 100 practices and was at many road games.

Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Shooter McGavin on December 01, 2019, 10:52:56 AM
Goose,
Very interesting post. Even though Thompson was one of the greatest players ever, I though it was Burleson who was the difference.


But here's the interesting part. You said we would lose 9 out of 10 times, yet you have 3 of the Warriors from that game on your GOAT list. Lloyd Walton who lasted 5 years in the NBA also was on the team. I think that shows your bias toward the old guys (which I admit I have as well as they comprise almost my entire list of my faves).

What I am saying is that I think you greatly undervalue MH. He was a pretty good player his first two years, though not worthy of being discussed in a topic like this. But he will finish his career as a two-time All-American. I have a hard time figuring out how he might barely make your top 20.

It’s a paternalistic asinine take that he will have a hard time backing out of unless he says he was drunk while making it.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 10:57:20 AM
PTM

Yep is right. I am tired of talking about success of a lifetime ago. Never want to forget a great time in my life, but would love another era of greatness. I have said countless times that MU should move on from the Al era.
I was not around, or barely around, for the Packer Lombardi era and love that we have recent Packer success to embrace. I love that we compare three all time great QB’s and debate which is better. To date, aside from Wade, I do not believe MU has provided the on court success to make old guys forget Al and his players.

But repeating success in a controlled environment like the NFL or NBA is much easier.  Salary caps give all a shot. Draft positions. Etc.  In college, as you know very well, it comes down to who you can convince to come to play for you...much harder and more difficult.  Plus you are competing with 100’s of other schools.

I think you have moved on from the Al era, but too many people here and associated donors haven’t still to this day and it doesn’t help us in my opinion. When you have former MU coaches and assistants saying his ghost never dies, or too many alums stuck in another century...not a good thing.

My goal and hopes with Wojo is he has a 15 year run, continues trajectory and can literally outlive some of the memories that get thrown around way too much.  We need to move on.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 01, 2019, 11:03:22 AM
What other program would have fans claim that their all time leading scorer, conference player of the year and second team all American isn't one of the program's top ten players of all time?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: lawdog77 on December 01, 2019, 11:08:05 AM
What other program would have fans claim that their all time leading scorer, conference player of the year and second team all American isn't one of the program's top ten players of all time?
maybe north.carolina and hansborough?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 11:10:24 AM
maybe north.carolina and hansborough?

We ain’t North Carolina
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 01, 2019, 11:10:45 AM
maybe north.carolina and hansborough?


He was clearly one of UNC's top 10 all time players.  If their fans feel otherwise, they're delusional.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Pakuni on December 01, 2019, 11:13:37 AM
maybe north.carolina and hansborough?

They'd also be wrong.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on December 01, 2019, 11:22:39 AM
Fluff

In reading everyone’s top ten, it appears that most agree on 7-8 players and I agree with most lists. To me, after the first six or seven it really comes down to the type of player you like, success as a team and possibly era or favorite player.

IMO there are guys careers, post Al, that I would prefer a 2.0 version over Howard. If someone would rather have a Howard 2.0 over my taking a Butler, Jae or D James repeat career, I am fine with that.

Howard is unreal scorer and entertaining. I would never argue that. Give me a healthy D James playing lockdown D and ability to score everyday over Howard scoring 40 a night.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jay Bee on December 01, 2019, 11:36:06 AM
Howard is unreal scorer and entertaining. I would never argue that. Give me a healthy D James playing lockdown D and ability to score everyday over Howard scoring 40 a night.

5'11" guys that shoot 29% career from 3fg% and have a consistently declining usage over their four seasons... can't see that over Howard. Not even close. Dom simply couldn't shoot.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on December 01, 2019, 11:39:30 AM
IMO there is no way that Jimmy Butler or Dominic James were better college basketball players than Markus Howard.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jockey on December 01, 2019, 11:53:13 AM
It’s a paternalistic asinine take that he will have a hard time backing out of unless he says he was drunk while making it.

I wasn't questioning his inclusion of the old guys, but rather challenging why he didn't include MH.

Since this is a subjective list, I see no problem.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: PGsHeroes32 on December 01, 2019, 11:53:20 AM
Fluff

In reading everyone’s top ten, it appears that most agree on 7-8 players and I agree with most lists. To me, after the first six or seven it really comes down to the type of player you like, success as a team and possibly era or favorite player.

IMO there are guys careers, post Al, that I would prefer a 2.0 version over Howard. If someone would rather have a Howard 2.0 over my taking a Butler, Jae or D James repeat career, I am fine with that.

Howard is unreal scorer and entertaining. I would never argue that. Give me a healthy D James playing lockdown D and ability to score everyday over Howard scoring 40 a night.

James over Howard is an absolute travesty
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 🏀 on December 01, 2019, 11:53:30 AM

He was clearly one of UNC's top 10 all time players.  If their fans feel otherwise, they're delusional.

See Goose.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: CountryRoads on December 01, 2019, 11:56:10 AM
James over Howard is an absolute travesty

I was just looking at James’ career stats. It’s amazing how similar they are all four years. Guy really set the bar high his freshman year and kind of just stayed the same through his whole career.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Jay Bee on December 01, 2019, 11:59:09 AM
I was just looking at James’ career stats. It’s amazing how similar they are all four years. Guy really set the bar high his freshman year and kind of just stayed the same through his whole career.

Except that freshman year his usage was 27.7% and %Shots were 27.5%.. those dropped to 21.5% and 22.0% as a senior.

#FTsNoMatta, but damn.. forgot he shot flippin 46.1% from the line as a senior (and a fairly normal - for him - 28.4% 3FG%)...

There may be only one person in the world who'd want that over Markus
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Elonsmusk on December 01, 2019, 12:06:22 PM
Bold Prediction:  Markus to the Bucks in First Round.

Bledsoe can't shoot.  Floor spacing Giannis commands/creates?  Markus could thrive.  Giannis erases a lot of defensive warts, as does Brook Lopez.  Middleton solid defender.  All of which could cover for the one area of deficiency Markus will bring at NBA level - defense.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Eldon on December 01, 2019, 12:07:19 PM
James over Howard is an absolute travesty

Maybe he meant to add the qualifier "at the PG position"
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on December 01, 2019, 12:12:13 PM
Except that freshman year his usage was 27.7% and %Shots were 27.5%.. those dropped to 21.5% and 22.0% as a senior.

#FTsNoMatta, but damn.. forgot he shot flippin 46.1% from the line as a senior (and a fairly normal - for him - 28.4% 3FG%)...

There may be only one person in the world who'd want that over Markus

DJ brought some intangibles to the PG position that are tough to measure.  He was a leader.  All of this is subjective of course.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 🏀 on December 01, 2019, 12:48:34 PM
Dakich just said MU didn’t deserve the national championship, does that change anyone’s top ten?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on December 01, 2019, 12:50:07 PM
PTM
I agree we did not deserve to win championship in ‘79.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 🏀 on December 01, 2019, 12:52:03 PM
PTM
I agree we did not deserve to win championship in ‘79.

Haha!
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Herman Cain on December 01, 2019, 01:51:16 PM
The last 10 years of Al tenure we were the second best program in the country - behind only UCLA and John Wooden, better than Dean Smith and N Carolina, Kentucky, Indiana, etc. We were a top 10 team every year. We declined a bid one year and won what was still a prestigious NIT tournament. In the other 9 we won 1 title, were runner up once and had multiple elite 8s. Our WORST finish in those years was the Sweet 16. Those 10 years produced 10 of the best 12 teams in Marquette history.

Look, I get that those who didn't experience it don't have the attachment to that era that we old farts have - history isn't as exciting as living something. I wish that all Scoopers would could have gone through it.
I agree with this analysis.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: lawdog77 on December 01, 2019, 01:51:25 PM
They'd also be wrong.
agreed, collegiately he might be #1 for them, but NCGoose would say Mike Okoren was better.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 07:47:06 PM
I'm a big Markus fan. He's the greatest scorer in MU history. but when he's stopped or slowed by a good game plan, good D or an off night there's really nothing he does very well to make up for it. Passer? Rebounder? Defender? Ball handler?

40, 51, 6. That's an average of 32+ a game. Spectacular - but wildly inconsistent.

So, one great, elite, out of this world skill. With an ultra high standard deviation. That might be the GOAT at some places. No way it is at Marquette.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Shooter McGavin on December 01, 2019, 08:20:44 PM
That’s right Lenny, for now.  Make your decision once his career is over.  You never know what can happen. 
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on December 01, 2019, 10:34:08 PM
PTM
I agree we did not deserve to win championship in ‘79.

Love it
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Lennys Tap on December 01, 2019, 10:39:36 PM
That’s right Lenny, for now.  Make your decision once his career is over.  You never know what can happen.

Shooter

I agree that's when we make our final decision...but there's already a lot of hay in the barn.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 1SE on February 13, 2020, 05:58:27 AM
For me the tourney run will still make the final determination, but if he's not in your conversation at this point (i.e. top-10) pass me whatever it is you're smoking.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: warriorchick on February 13, 2020, 07:00:57 AM
Is there an official hashtag to promote Markus as National Player of the year? If not, someone is falling down on the job.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: brewcity77 on February 13, 2020, 07:28:29 AM
Is there an official hashtag to promote Markus as National Player of the year? If not, someone is falling down on the job.

I've been adding #MarkusHowardNPOY to all my tweets, but it might be long and unwieldy.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: warriorchick on February 13, 2020, 07:31:06 AM
I've been adding #MarkusHowardNPOY to all my tweets, but it might be long and unwieldy.

I propose #Markus4NPOY  It's succinct and everyone we want to influence would know what that means.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 1SE on February 13, 2020, 08:30:14 AM
I propose #Markus4NPOY  It's succinct and everyone we want to influence would know what that means.

Wouldn't want it to get confused with the the campaign for this Markus

https://goviks.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/markus-golder/3813
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: warriorchick on February 13, 2020, 10:22:03 AM
Wouldn't want it to get confused with the the campaign for this Markus

https://goviks.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/markus-golder/3813


A guy who has scored 143 points this season?  Doubtful.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Galway Eagle on February 13, 2020, 10:38:40 AM
Anyone know how long it'd take before Markus is clear to play without the mask? I'm thinking 3-4 weeks?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on February 13, 2020, 11:10:36 AM
Impossible to name a singular GOAT over 100+ years.  We have about 6-8 of them, Markus without question is in that group and clearly near the top.  Hard for me to put him ahead of a guy like Butch, Chones, Bo, Or Wade.  But i think he has surpassed Meminger, Lucas, Thompson
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: NCMUFan on February 13, 2020, 11:20:33 AM
Markus is one of the great ones of all time but not the greatest one of all time.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Marcus92 on February 13, 2020, 11:39:44 AM
There's a strong case for including Markus on the Mt. Rushmore of Marquette basketball.

He's the school's all-time leading scorer and will end his career as the most prolific scorer in Big East history. When it comes to offense, he's as good as any of the legendary Warriors.

Greatest Of All-Time? That's a tall order. Wade is the best player I've seen in an MU uniform. It's not even close. But I wouldn't call him the GOAT. Thompson held the team scoring record for five decades. But he didn't have the same postseason success as Meminger, Lee, Ellis, Walton, Tatum, etc. And I'm not sure anyone was as dominant as Jim Chones was in his two seasons at Marquette.

Put it this way -- Markus is the greatest player at Marquette since Wade. That's enough for me.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Bad_Reporter on February 13, 2020, 11:42:24 AM
Greatest scorer, possibly.  Great advocate, absolutely.  Greatest of all time,  No. Absolutely not

Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: SaveOD238 on February 13, 2020, 11:55:56 AM
There's a strong case for including Markus on the Mt. Rushmore of Marquette basketball.

There's still a lot of MH's story to be told, but if he finds next level success and continues to represent the university, I would see our Mt. Rushmore as...

Al
Wade
Bo Ellis
Markus
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: JakeBarnes on February 13, 2020, 12:17:24 PM
I propose #Markus4NPOY  It's succinct and everyone we want to influence would know what that means.

This is the one.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on February 13, 2020, 03:57:52 PM
One of my colleagues is a Nova grad...called me this morning


“Thank God that kid is graduating...sick of seeing him scoring on us for 4 years”
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: lawdog77 on February 13, 2020, 04:51:04 PM
One of my colleagues is a Nova grad...called me this morning


“Thank God that kid is graduating...sick of seeing him scoring on us for 4 years”
cool story bro
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: GooooMarquette on February 13, 2020, 10:06:48 PM
He’s in the discussion, and that’s pretty damn impressive IMO.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on February 13, 2020, 10:19:20 PM
There's still a lot of MH's story to be told, but if he finds next level success and continues to represent the university, I would see our Mt. Rushmore as...

Al
Wade
Bo Ellis
Markus

U cannot put bo ahead of butch
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Mr. Sand-Knit on February 13, 2020, 10:20:11 PM
One of my colleagues is a Nova grad...called me this morning


“Thank God that kid is graduating...sick of seeing him scoring on us for 4 years”

Dont believe anything u say
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on February 13, 2020, 10:27:06 PM
cool story bro

I'm so pleased you enjoyed it....
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: lawdog77 on February 14, 2020, 06:09:35 AM
I'm so pleased you enjoyed it....
Seek help.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on February 14, 2020, 09:24:02 AM
Seek help.

Your continued concern for others and their well being makes you Poster of the Month and don’t let anyone tell you differently. You are what makes MU grads, and especially lawyers, so special.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Silent Verbal on February 14, 2020, 09:45:27 AM
Markus is the greatest scorer in MU history and the most fun Warrior to watch since Wade.  That said, I’d never heard Lawrence Moten’s name mentioned on any Big East broadcast until the Nova game, so I’m not sure the record he broke on Wednesday means a whole hell of a lot.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: lawdog77 on February 14, 2020, 09:49:38 AM
Your continued concern for others and their well being makes you Poster of the Month and don’t let anyone tell you differently. You are what makes MU grads, and especially lawyers, so special.
no, my concern is for you and your little Napoleonic complex. its  not healthy. I mean that
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: CTWarrior on February 14, 2020, 01:08:53 PM
Markus is the greatest scorer in MU history and the most fun Warrior to watch since Wade.  That said, I’d never heard Lawrence Moten’s name mentioned on any Big East broadcast until the Nova game, so I’m not sure the record he broke on Wednesday means a whole hell of a lot.
I agree, though I vaguely remember him getting the record, but FWIW, Moten was a tremendous college player.  I have no idea who the leading scorer in any of the other conferences is, though I assume it is probably Pete Maravich in the SEC.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Billy Hoyle on February 14, 2020, 03:30:49 PM
GOAT's (maybe the most played out term in all of sports) win championships and in college basketball, take their teams to Final Fours.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Galway Eagle on February 14, 2020, 03:36:36 PM
GOAT's (maybe the most played out term in all of sports) win championships and in college basketball, take their teams to Final Fours.

So not a big Charles Barkley fan eh?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on February 14, 2020, 03:48:33 PM
no, my concern is for you and your little Napoleonic complex. its  not healthy. I mean that

That’s awesome....a make believe psychologist and a lawyer....you are what makes MU special.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: dgies9156 on February 14, 2020, 04:49:12 PM
U cannot put bo ahead of butch

Sorry gang, here's the GOATs, restricted to players and a continuation of what I said earlier.

1)  Wade -- No doubt. He was the official GOAT the day we massacred Kentucky in Minneapolis. There was no one like DWade.
2) Butch and Bo -- You can't have one without the other, as we learned in 1978. They're like Sonny and Cher, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Romeo and Juliet, the Captain and Tenille, etc. There's a banner hanging in the Computing Castle thanks to these guys.
3) Maurice Lucas -- The backbone of our 1974 NCAA runner-up team. The difference between 1974 and 1975 was Maurice Lucas.
4) Jim Chones -- What would have been
5) Markus -- Wow, what he has done for this program on so many levels is spectacular.
6) Earl Tatum -- He was someone really special
7) George Thompson -- He got it started.
6 Honorable Mention -- Bob Lackey -- My FOAT (Favorite of All Time). The guy was the nastiest, fun-loving guy around.

Of course, no one but Al has their name painted on the floor.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Billy Hoyle on February 14, 2020, 04:53:55 PM
So not a big Charles Barkley fan eh?

how so? As a commentator or a player? I rarely watch national NBA broadcasts so I haven't heard him in a long time.

But, I will say this. Nobody considers Marino the "GOAT" due to him not winning a Super Bowl. There's a reason certain players are categorized as "best to never win a title (Barkley included)."
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on February 16, 2020, 08:17:49 AM
I agree, though I vaguely remember him getting the record, but FWIW, Moten was a tremendous college player.  I have no idea who the leading scorer in any of the other conferences is, though I assume it is probably Pete Maravich in the SEC.

MU just tweeted that Moten will be at the game on Tuesday.  That's kinda cool.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Newsdreams on February 16, 2020, 05:51:29 PM
Seek help.
Yep
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Cheeks on February 16, 2020, 06:38:06 PM
Yep

Awww...a few pigs in blankets...like a club
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: mug644 on February 16, 2020, 07:07:23 PM
MU just tweeted that Moten will be at the game on Tuesday.  That's kinda cool.

Sweet! No one on MU wears #21 and he will look awesome in baby blues. Suddenly I feel more positive about the outcome. He will play like he did in the 94-95 season, right?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Newsdreams on February 16, 2020, 07:36:24 PM
Awww...a few pigs in blankets...like a club
Nope, see what I see and you and couple of others need help. Obsessive compulsive is not good.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 4everwarriors on February 18, 2020, 02:44:53 PM

Heer ya goe y'all, hey?

https://apple.news/AGBnNEkVYTVWxRQm6_dR4Fw
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Shooter McGavin on February 18, 2020, 02:55:12 PM
Nice article.  Good to see some national pub.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: 1SE on February 19, 2020, 01:16:14 AM
The nose-job is really impacting the guy isn't it? Since 10-11 against Depaul he's 11-18 from the FT line - that has to be about the worst stretch of his career. Hopefully he heals us and gets back to his old self otherwise I think we'll have a very short March.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: marqfan22 on February 22, 2020, 08:02:54 PM
38 points today.

Top scorer (by 10 points) in top 25 games today.

Enjoy him folks.

GOAT
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on February 22, 2020, 08:03:46 PM
His is the goat.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Silent Verbal on February 22, 2020, 08:06:02 PM
38 points today.

Top scorer (by 10 points) in top 25 games today.

Enjoy him folks.

GOAT

Teal?
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on February 22, 2020, 08:10:00 PM
I hope everyone on here is old enough to have watched Wade play for MU and fully agree he is the best by wide margin. We had great players during Al’s run, but never like Wade. That said, how can Howard be in the same conversation with Wade is beyond me.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: marqfan22 on February 22, 2020, 08:15:52 PM
Not saying Howard should be compared to Wade, but Markus will be a first team All-American.

He gets treated like crap.

Wade had two other NBA guys on his Final Four team. Cut Markus some slack.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: Goose on February 22, 2020, 08:29:11 PM
22

Then no one should start a thread calling Howard the GOAT. I did not start the fxxkin thread, just bringing common sense to it.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: marqfan22 on February 22, 2020, 08:48:49 PM
Roger that goose
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: goldeneagle91114 on February 22, 2020, 08:58:13 PM
Not saying Howard should be compared to Wade, but Markus will be a first team All-American.

He gets treated like crap.

Wade had two other NBA guys on his Final Four team. Cut Markus some slack.

This is on wojo, it’s just sad that he couldn’t build around Markus. It’s such a waist of an amazing talent
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: #UnleashSean on February 22, 2020, 09:01:06 PM
I hope everyone on here is old enough to have watched Wade play for MU and fully agree he is the best by wide margin. We had great players during Al’s run, but never like Wade. That said, how can Howard be in the same conversation with Wade is beyond me.

Anyone who thinks Markus is even close to Wade doesn't know basketball outside of the PTS on the box score.
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: ATL MU Warrior on February 22, 2020, 09:03:40 PM
This is on wojo, it’s just sad that he couldn’t build around Markus. It’s such a waist of an amazing talent
He’s built around Markus to the extent that he can. What kind of talented player wants to come and set screens or stand around in the corner while Markus jacks 25 shots a game? 
Title: Re: Markus GOAT
Post by: lawdog77 on February 22, 2020, 09:06:19 PM
He’s built around Markus to the extent that he can. What kind of talented player wants to come and set screens or stand around in the corner while Markus jacks 25 shots a game?
That's on Wojo, not Markus.