Markus GOAT

[1SE]

I think the only back to back 40pt games in BE history deserves a revival of this debate....

[Goose]

He has moved into my top twenty this season. Think little chance of cracking top ten and light years from catching Wade.

[TallTitan34]

Only player in last 20 years with multiple 50 point games.

Has three of the four 50 point games in Big East history.

Along with Pete Maravich and Wayman Tisdale as only players in NCAA history with a 50 point game in three straight years.

Passed the Orlando Invitational three day scoring record of 73 in only two days with 91.

[TallTitan34]

He has moved into my top twenty this season. Think little chance of cracking top ten and light years from catching Wade.

If you are basing it on tournament success, Dwyane Wade would have won ZERO tournament games if Marquette didn't sneak by Holy Cross thanks to 29 points from Travis Diener.

Just saying.

[Goose]

Titan

Do not believe I mentioned it was based off NCAA success. But now that you mention it, that would be nice.

[TallTitan34]

Titan

Do not believe I mentioned it was based off NCAA success. But now that you mention it, that would be nice.

I would probably still give Wade the nod over Markus, but I wouldn't say he is light years ahead.  What separates them so much for you?

[Goose]

Titan
Are you seriously asking what separates Wade from Howard?

[TallTitan34]

Titan
Are you seriously asking what separates Wade from Howard?

No, I'm asking what makes Wade "light years" ahead. I think it's much closer than that.

And what keeps him out of your top 10?

[Goose]

Titan
Wade was a complete, all around player and elite athlete. Howard can take a lot of shots and score points.
In really thinking about all time greats, I have never had Doc Rivers in top 15 and believe his career at MU probably grades out to a B. In comparing Howard to Doc, I would give Doc the nod because he also was an all around player and elite athlete.

[TallTitan34]

Titan
Wade was a complete, all around player and elite athlete. Howard can take a lot of shots and score points.
In really thinking about all time greats, I have never had Doc Rivers in top 15 and believe his career at MU probably grades out to a B. In comparing Howard to Doc, I would give Doc the nod because he also was an all around player and elite athlete.

Ok... now who are the other eight you have ahead of Markus?

[Goose]

Titan
He is not in my top ten. For a point of reference, I like players that impact on both sides of the ball, high ball IQ, can rebound on both ends of the court and make teammates better.
Howard is the greatest scorer in MU history. He is in my top purest shooters and that pretty much sums his game, IMO. FYI I would take the other pure shooters game against UConn over all of Howard's 40+ nights.

[TallTitan34]

Titan
He is not in my top ten. For a point of reference, I like players that make impact on both sides of the ball, high ball IQ, can rebound on both ends of the court and make teammates better.
Howard is the greatest scorer in MU history. He is in my top purest shooters and that pretty much sums his game, IMO. FYI I would take the other pure shooters game against UConn over all of Howard's 40+ nights.

Alright.

I mean a pretty big part of basketball is scoring. And to leave as you say "the greatest scorer in MU history" out of your top 10 seems crazy to me but whatever.

[mileskishnish72]

Alright.

I mean a pretty big part of basketball is scoring. And to leave as you say "the greatest scorer in MU history" out of your top 10 seems crazy to me but whatever.

Interesting in the favorite player thread how little love Jerel got.

[Its DJOver]

I know and understand the whole 3 point line, 3 years versus 4 years, shot clock argument, but Markus has a legit shot to have the scoring record by 1000+ points, that's not nothing IMO.  I'm not sure if he's the GOAT yet, but IMO if he had played 40-50 years ago, even with his naturally reduced numbers because of the reasons listed above, many here that diminish his accomplishments because of the era/style of play would have him as the GOAT.  IMO he's already no worse than a top 5 all time player, and I do think he has a chance to be #1, but hey, this is a subjective list so the arguments will continue forever, probably with no one changing anyone else's mind.  Welcome to the internet.

[Goose]

DJO
Where do you have Tony Smith in your all time great list? He was quite the scorer his Sr. Year, was four year contributor, all around player and long NBA career?

[Its DJOver]

DJO
Where do you have Tony Smith in your all time great list? He was quite the scorer his Sr. Year, was four year contributor, all around player and long NBA career?

I don't have a physical list made, but he'd be in the top 10 for sure, possibly even top 5.

[Goose]

Tony Smith is in your top ten, possibly top five? Enjoy the GOAT debate, guys.

[Its DJOver]

All time leading scorer, by possibly more than 1000 points isn't in your top 10? Enjoy the GOAT debate guys.  It's a subjective list comparing players across 60+ years, yea I think there's going to be a fair bit of discrepancy.

[dgies9156]

Titan
Wade was a complete, all around player and elite athlete. Howard can take a lot of shots and score points.
In really thinking about all time greats, I have never had Doc Rivers in top 15 and believe his career at MU probably grades out to a B. In comparing Howard to Doc, I would give Doc the nod because he also was an all around player and elite athlete.

I tend to agree with this analysis.

Don't get me wrong -- Markus is incredible and I'm glad we have him. He is fun to watch and God only knows where we would be without him. He is one of the all-time greats, no doubt, but GOAT, lets not get carried away.

Unless and until Marquette University strikes the name Dwyane Wade from all its records, no one else will be the GOAT. To replace Wade will require an unbelievable run at MU with, probably, a natty to boot. Markus is great but, think about it.

The next folks in line after Wade for GOAT are Butch Lee and Bo Ellis, Maurice Lucas, George Thompson, Jim Chones, Earl Tatum.

[brewcity77]

To reach GOAT status, I would say at minimum a Final Four, and guaranteed with a National Title.

A few things...first, people have consistently conflated Markus' defense with Rowsey's because they are the same size. No, Howard isn't a shot-blocker or ball thief, but he has become a solid defender and I have been continually impressed by his defensive effort this year. He has improved significantly as a defender and while we definitely played 4-on-5 on defense with Rowsey, that isn't the case with Markus.

Second, it sucks that NCAA success plays so much into this, but having been on campus for Wade's run, it just does. If Howard can lift us to a Big East Tourney title or a third weekend NCAA run, that will go a long way for me. Sustaining this kind of scoring over the entire season, as well, would be huge. Not the "11 against RMU, 40 against Davidson" but the consistent, 30 ppg for a season.

Third, while it wouldn't be automatic GOAT territory, I think people have to realize the kind of historic scorer Markus is. At his current pace, we would need to win one Big East or NCAA Tournament game for Howard to finish as the all-time leading Big East scorer both for a career and for a single season. Forget pedestrian scorers like Bell, Mullin, and Kittles, he could pass all-time scorers like Gathers, Redick, and Hansbrough. If that doesn't get him into the conversation, then I'm not sure what language people are talking.

Fourth, and finally, Wade is still it for me, and I fully appreciate that he could've set crazy marks had he been here for 4 years, but the bottom line is he wasn't. Longevity has to matter too. No one talks about Kyrie Irving as an all-time Duke great because no matter how good he was, it was still just 11 games. That Howard has played 4 years and poured in points at the rate he has should mean something. We are talking about college player greatness, and sticking around the entire time, especially when he could've tested the waters the past couple years and didn't even put his name in, should count in his favor.

[hairy worthen]

To me the great players make their teammates better. MJ scored lots of points, but also made all of his teammates better. Howard scores points and shoots a lot,  he doesn't really make his teammates better in fact some would argue he makes them worse in some games. He doesnt really rebound, defense is average to below average, not a great ball handler, not really known for assists or passing. He scores points and i like him as a player and person, but not close to goat in my opinion.

[lawdog77]

I tend to agree with this analysis.

Don't get me wrong -- Markus is incredible and I'm glad we have him. He is fun to watch and God only knows where we would be without him. He is one of the all-time greats, no doubt, but GOAT, lets not get carried away.

Unless and until Marquette University strikes the name Dwyane Wade from all its records, no one else will be the GOAT. To replace Wade will require an unbelievable run at MU with, probably, a natty to boot. Markus is great but, think about it.

The next folks in line after Wade for GOAT are Butch Lee and Bo Ellis, Maurice Lucas, George Thompson, Jim Chones, Earl Tatum.

earl tatum was great, but imho. Markus has passed him on that list. Earl averaged 12 points a game and never shot over 50%.

[Its DJOver]

earl tatum was great, but imho. Markus has passed him on that list. Earl averaged 12 points a game and never shot over 50%.

Yea, I think some here have a bit of an inflated view of some of those 70s players because of the team success. IMO a lot of them are similar to Jerel. Very good player that had the benefit of playing alongside several other very good players, making some great teams and a lot of team success, but individually not worthy of the GOAT conversation.

[LloydsLegs]

Final 4 and he is with Wade for me. (And as I note in these things, i can look at numbers and enjoy anecdotes, I do not feel qualified to "rate" pre 1980). Started following ncaa in 73/74, but that meant maybe one game a week on tv and reading the boxscores. 

[Pakuni]

Dwyane is a solid choice, but it's probably not fair to compare his tournament success with that of Markus.  Wade had two other NBA players along with him on that Final Four run,  and that team doesn't survive the first weekend without huge contributions from both. Markus has not been blessed with the quality of teammates as DWade.

Anyone who says Markus makes his teammates worse is a bona fide moron.