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Marquette
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Marquette vs

Georgetown

Date/Time: Feb 26, 2019 - 7:30pm
TV: FS1
Schedule for 2019-20
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Poll

Markus will be Marquette's GOAT if....

He already is
34 (18.7%)
Marquette makes a deep tourney run
93 (51.1%)
He becomes a NBA HOFmer
18 (9.9%)
Hell freezes over. No one displaces Lee/Thompson/Mc/Wade/Butler/Favoriteplayerofmyera
33 (18.1%)
Cancer.
4 (2.2%)

Total Members Voted: 182

Author Topic: Markus GOAT  (Read 7591 times)

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2019, 07:41:48 AM »
Final 4 and he is with Wade for me. (And as I note in these things, i can look at numbers and enjoy anecdotes, I do not feel qualified to “rate” pre 1980). Started following ncaa in 73/74, but that meant maybe one game a week on tv and reading the boxscores. 

Im with you.  He clearly has the individual honors that make him one of the greats.  Now, like anyone, needs team success to be validated.

I am chuckling about MJ comparisons from a temperament standpoint.  That was a begrudgingly learned trait.  Markus is already light years ahead of mike early in his nba career.

#UnleashJayce

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2019, 07:50:43 AM »
Top 10? Maybe.

Goat? Not even close.

#UnleashJayce

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2019, 07:52:47 AM »
Alright.

I mean a pretty big part of basketball is scoring. And to leave as you say “the greatest scorer in MU history” out of your top 10 seems crazy to me but whatever.

With that logic rowsey should be in your top 10.

hairy worthen

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2019, 07:54:49 AM »
Im with you.  He clearly has the individual honors that make him one of the greats.  Now, like anyone, needs team success to be validated.

I am chuckling about MJ comparisons from a temperament standpoint.  That was a begrudgingly learned trait.  Markus is already light years ahead of mike early in his nba career.
I used MJ as an example of someone who made his teammates better not as a comparison to MH. Do you really think MH has any chance of being anywhere near what MJ was because MH is "light years" ahead of MJ at this point in their careers? You are not very credible.

brewcity77

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2019, 07:55:08 AM »
Dwyane is a solid choice, but it's probably not fair to compare his tournament success with that of Markus.  Wade had two other NBA players along with him on that Final Four run,  and that team doesn't survive the first weekend without huge contributions from both. Markus has not been blessed with the quality of teammates as DWade.

Anyone who says Markus makes his teammates worse is a bona fide moron.

Quality of teammates is big, but the reality is Wade's performance against Kentucky was one of those crystalizing moments that solidified Wade's status. The Providence and Creighton games were huge, but Wednesday road games in January don't generate the same acclaim as an Elite 8 game in front of a mostly pro-Marquette crowd on a Saturday when everyone is watching.

I have a feeling that part of the reason Goose scoffs at mentions of Tony Smith is in part about the lack of team success (0 NCAA appearances in his career) and a lack of those moments. Two first round NIT exits just don't resonate like that.

hairy worthen

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2019, 08:00:47 AM »
Dwyane is a solid choice, but it's probably not fair to compare his tournament success with that of Markus.  Wade had two other NBA players along with him on that Final Four run,  and that team doesn't survive the first weekend without huge contributions from both. Markus has not been blessed with the quality of teammates as DWade.

Anyone who says Markus makes his teammates worse is a bona fide moron.
Nice argument, if you dont agree with someone just call him a moron. Makes me wonder who  the real moron is.

I am not one who thinks Marcus makes his teammates worse, but I can understand that thinking. How about explaining how MH makes his teammates better in every game.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2019, 08:04:36 AM »
I used MJ as an example of someone who made his teammates better not as a comparison to MH. Do you really think MH has any chance of being anywhere near what MJ was because MH is "light years" ahead of MJ at this point in their careers? You are not very credible.

As an overall talent and basketball player no of course not. 

Mike was so selfish early in his NBA career. I remember him as the guy who learned to make others better as a necessity to finally get team success for his own legacy. 

Markus already seems more mature in that regard.

Look I’m not trying to pick on you, I just thought it was funny to think of MJ as the example. 

Pakuni

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2019, 08:05:49 AM »
Nice argument, if you dont agree with someone just call him a moron. Makes me wonder who  the real moron is.

I am not one who thinks Marcus makes his teammates worse, but I can understand that thinking. How about explaining how MH makes his teammates better in every game.

The real moron is anyone who thinks Markus makes his teammates worse. I thought we already established that.

How does he make his teammates better? By being the focal point of every defense MU has faced at least the past two seasons, creating space and opportunities for everyone else on the floor with him.

Now do tell, how does he make his teammates worse (since you understand that moronic thinking)?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 08:09:29 AM by Pakuni »

TallTitan34

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2019, 08:06:23 AM »
With that logic rowsey should be in your top 10.

I think there’s a big difference between Rowsey and a guy who could add another 900 points on to his existing record.

EDIT: Rowsey 1087, Howard 2131 and counting
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 08:09:39 AM by TallTitan34 »
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hairy worthen

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2019, 08:08:44 AM »
As an overall talent and basketball player no of course not. 

Mike was so selfish early in his NBA career. I remember him as the guy who learned to make others better as a necessity to finally get team success for his own legacy. 

Markus already seems more mature in that regard.

Look I’m not trying to pick on you, I just thought it was funny to think of MJ as the example.
MJ was the first one that came to mind as someone who made his teammates better. You are correct he wasnt that way in college or early in his pro career.

Pakuni

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2019, 08:08:52 AM »
With that logic rowsey should be in your top 10.

Rowsey is 40th on MU's all-time scoring list.
How would the logic of including the program's top scorer of all time in its top 10 players dictate that the 40th scorer also belongs in the top 10?

Goose

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2019, 08:13:22 AM »
Brew
I scoff at Tony Smith being in top five conversation because that is laughable. Tony was nice player and had an outstanding senior year player, but not an all time great.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 08:16:12 AM by Goose »

hairy worthen

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2019, 08:16:36 AM »
The real moron is anyone who thinks Markus makes his teammates worse. I thought we already established that.

How does he make his teammates better? By being the focal point of every defense MU has faced at least the past two seasons, creating space and opportunities for everyone else on the floor with him.

Now do tell, how does he make his teammates worse (since you understand that moronic thinking)?
Again I do not believe he makes his teammates worse. Improving spacing for your teammates only helps if you actually pass them the ball. Handling the ball the entire possession while your teammates stand there doesnt make them better. I didnt see much of that yesterday which is encouraging.

Goose

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2019, 08:19:03 AM »
If he made his teammates a ton better we would be world beaters, since he is the GOAT of MU ball. Sadly, his tenure has not made us world beaters.

jsglow

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2019, 08:19:34 AM »
I tend to agree with this analysis.

Don't get me wrong -- Markus is incredible and I'm glad we have him. He is fun to watch and God only knows where we would be without him. He is one of the all-time greats, no doubt, but GOAT, lets not get carried away.

Unless and until Marquette University strikes the name Dwyane Wade from all its records, no one else will be the GOAT. To replace Wade will require an unbelievable run at MU with, probably, a natty to boot. Markus is great but, think about it.

The next folks in line after Wade for GOAT are Butch Lee and Bo Ellis, Maurice Lucas, George Thompson, Jim Chones, Earl Tatum.

Agree, except for one very important omission.

Dean 'The Dream' Meminger.

Markus is a once in a generation scorer; perhaps one of the very best in all of NCAA hoops in this century.  But even he would admit that there aspects of his game that are far below superstar status.  He continues to work on them every day.

CountryRoads

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2019, 08:22:11 AM »
Imo, Wade’s GOAT status has a lot to do with his NBA success and fame. If he turned out to be a bust after the final four run, I think he would be further down many people’s list.

Its DJOver

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2019, 08:24:46 AM »
You don't become the all time assists leader by a huge margin (only more untouchable record is Macs blocks) by having one good year.  Inflating the third or fourth option on a great 70s team should not take away from a great player that had little to no supporting cast.

brewcity77

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2019, 08:34:37 AM »
Brew
I scoff at Tony Smith being in top five conversation because that is laughable. Tony was nice player and had an outstanding senior year player, but not an all time great.

I think it's hard to dismiss that team success factors in, though. If Smith was the best player on a Final Four team, like Wade or Lee, he gets more consideration. Similarly, Henry Ellenson had a great freshman year, but longevity and lack of team success would always keep him from a top-5, 10, or 20 list. Team and March success is part of what is remembered for all time greats.

Goose

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2019, 08:35:15 AM »
DJO

Wrong Tony. Maybe you should bow out of the discussion at this point.

Goose

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2019, 08:42:13 AM »
Air

The first time I saw Wade play in a game I said to my Dad we are watching the greatest talent, athlete ever to play at MU. The Kentucky game was exclamation point, but he was the greatest well before then to me.

Any discussion on greatest is 100% based off of MU time in my grading system. His NBA career takes him another level in regards to NBA greats, but nothing to do with my evaluation as college player.

Its DJOver

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2019, 08:42:50 AM »
DJO

Wrong Tony. Maybe you should bow out of the discussion at this point.

Meacupla. Doesn't change my opinion and until you actually post your top 10 which will be wade, george and 8 players from the 70s I'll continue to think that you're incredibly biased towards all Al players and against anything Wojo.

MU82

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2019, 08:43:44 AM »
Is there room for nuance here?

Markus already is the GSOAT -- Greatest Scorer of All Time. He will leave as the leading scorer in the history of a program that has produced a lot of great players, and he will be that by a wide, wide margin. Many of the players on most Scoopers' all-time top-10 or top-20 lists also played 4 years: Lee, Toone, Matthews, Tatum, McNeal, James, etc., and he will leave all of them in the dust. Not only that, he will end up with the top two PPG seasons in school history, and by a wide margin.

Think of all the great 4-year players in Big East history: Ewing, Mullin, Kittles, Kemba, Mourning, Floyd, Douglas, Pinckney, Coleman, Bell, Sealy, Barros, etc. Markus is going to end up with more points than all of them. His PPG will rival or surpass Iverson, Carmelo, Berry, Allen, Pearl, Hamilton, etc. There have been four 50-point games in Big East history and Markus Howard -- not Mullin, not Ewing, not Kemba, not Iverson, not Allen, not any of the guys who have gone on to be NBA stars -- has THREE of them!

I know he doesn't do many of the things that make a guy a great all-around player, but scoring is a premium skill in basketball, and he will leave college as the most elite scorer in the history of a great program and a great conference.

That he has played in only 2 NCAA tournament games and has won none obviously weighs on his GOAT candidacy. He was a role player in 2017, but he was the star in 2019, and he was not able to lift that team. Whether that was due to poor play, injury, teammates undermining him, bad coaching, lack of support, whatever ... pick your excuse, but sports history can be cruel, and he simply didn't get it done.

So when we rank him against all the MU all-timers who DID help their teams get it done -- Wade, Lee, Lucas, Ellis, Meminger, etc -- it's easy to see why he comes up short on a GOAT list.

Add in the one-dimensional-ness of his game, as well as the bias most Scoopers over 50 have to everything Al-related, and, again, it's easy to see why he comes up short.

Still, to dismiss scoring -- elite, never-before-seen scoring -- with a shrug and to say the guy who will hold our scoring record is not being even worthy of top-10 or, for some, top-20 MU status ... that seems wrong, too.

I mean, based on previous threads, there actually are folks here who would rank Sam Freakin' Hauser ahead of Markus. Based on ... what? ... all of Sam's great NCAA tournament performances?

So in some crazy ways, Markus Howard actually seems underrated by a pretty large swath of Scoopdom.

I was gonna put my top 10 here, but decided to start a new thread.
"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy than Scoop game threads."

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Silent Verbal

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2019, 09:07:41 AM »
Only player in last 20 years with multiple 50 point games.

Has three of the four 50 point games in Big East history.

Along with Pete Maravich and Wayman Tisdale as only players in NCAA history with a 50 point game in three straight years.

Passed the Orlando Invitational three day scoring record of 73 in only two days with 91.

Did you actually just throw Markus’ Orlando Invitational scoring record out there as one of the reasons he should be considered MU’s GOAT?  If he held the Final Four scoring record, I could see it.  The BET scoring record?  Hell yeah, put that on his resume.  Even the Milwaukee Classic, I might nod my head in agreement and concede that, yes, some good teams did participate in that throughout the years.

But the Orlando Invitational?  A second rate Thanksgiving tournament that’s played in front of a crowd of 500 people who stopped by to watch a basketball game in between trips to Space Mountain and Epcot?  Where the single game scoring record was previously held by Matt freaking Carlino?  Now *that* is what I call prestigious!

Markus is the greatest scorer in the history of MU ball.  But people need to stop being butt hurt if individual posters leave him off their top 5 or 10 or whatever lists. 

TallTitan34

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2019, 09:18:22 AM »
Did you actually just throw Markus’ Orlando Invitational scoring record out there as one of the reasons he should be considered MU’s GOAT? .

It was a list of things he accomplished with his game yesterday.

Obviously that item is at the bottom of the career resume.
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Its DJOver

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Re: Markus GOAT
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2019, 09:27:12 AM »
Breaking a three game tournament scoring record in 2 games is noteworthy no matter the overall level of competition.

 

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